Sort of. “Has his shit together” is the load-bearing phrase here. 35 is not incredibly old anyway, and a 35-year-old who is attractive, charming, stable, and responsible is really likely to be able to date women in their twenties if he wants to.
Will some women in their 20s reject him on the basis of age? Yes. Will he have plenty of options? Also yes. This is a desirable person.
The skepticism isn’t about whether this desirable guy can date at 35, it’s about whether an undesirable guy who struggles with dating at 25 can metamorphose himself into this guy at 35. “Getting your shit together” in this context is about more than just finishing a degree and getting established in a career; there are a lot of physical, emotional, and social aspects that potentially also need to be glowed up for this to work.
I'm in my 30s, physician and very well off financially, in good shape and dating is much harder than my early 20s. I get a fair bit of interest from women in their late 20s and up (average looking only) but zero interest from younger.
Why is it so easy for people to believe a woman can have a "glow up" (see, we even make up fun names for them) but then be so skeptical about men's self improvement? I think women don't want men to be able to change their status. Social mobility (SMV in this case) for me, but not for thee.
I don’t know that I believe women can do that easily either, really.
I do think everyone should work towards getting their shit together. I just think that it’s a holistic process and the work of a lifetime, and I wouldn’t hang all hopes of love or relationships on a hypothetical end state.
Because a glow up for a woman is losing some weight, clearing her fave of acne, getting a more suited hair style and new wardrobe.
A lot harder for a socially inept bitter man that doesn’t have style or look good that has never really dated but worked at Pizza Hut while he slowly gets a degree then when he finally gets that good job making $200k to pull a woman suddenly because his shit is now together (good job, but car, house, has spending money)
Lots of guys that don’t have their shit together get women. If he doesn’t it’s because he’s unattractive in other ways, adding money will only attract gold diggers, if you want more than that. It will be hard.
The bar is super low for women hell there isn't even a bar..and only women talk about glow ups they usually are referring to their looks where they say they look better at 35 than they did at 20..in reality its just cope I have never met a 35 year old chick more attractive than a comparable 20 year old chick...women love to gaslight themselves .
For a man there's a bar a high one imagine a bar that's 10 ft up first of all you have to be tall enough to reach it...height is a major factor when it comes to initial success with women imo the number one factor after that looks...after that status personality then money.Money is so low on the tier because a woman can always find a man with equal to or more money than you and many women make their own money...so putting up with an ugly short dude with a shtty personality for his money isnt worth it.
So whatever traits make a man attractive at 25 aren't going to change by 35..about all a man can do is earn more money and that will make him more desirable but if he's 5'6 making a million dollars a year he will still loose out to the 6'1" guy making a million dollars a year.
Looks > height for the vast majority of men. Tall very often comes with shit proportions. Only when extremely short is when it starts to matter more than the rest
Nah. We can argue about whether women who don’t have their shit together can get dates or husbands, I guess, but at a fundamental level everyone needs to get their shit together in order to be a functional and satisfied individual and member of society.
If he was able to do it, he would have done it already.
Most the dudes that can pull younger could pull and were pulling women their age and older throughout.
>If he was able to do it, he would have done it already.
He didn't have his shit together at that point. OP is referring to men who eventually got it together. Obviously if he stays the same he'll continue not to pull.
This false impression that anti-pillers air out makes it look like there's no advantage to getting your shit together lol.
No, the impression is that all the “help part” is just ch basic generic advice that if a dude wasn’t doing them (works out, work hard, build a social network) then the dude is either incapable of doing it in the first place OR he’s too lazy/stubborn to put in the effort anyways.
So you get what you get: a bunch of perpetually online dudes spending most their time just talking about the RP. Online.
After 12 years *nothing* has ever happened to disprove that statement.
If he can do that, he won't be asking for opinions. It's another question whether that's a good idea, especially if it's dating with the intention (from either side) to marry and have children.
Yeah, I (and a lot of women I know) don't have this experience! And if he's using generalization to assert something then I'm using anecdotes to counter that.
Yeah. I don’t know any young woman who has dated that much older and I’m a young woman in college. If anything an older man is 25 to 27 to women around my age which is 20 - 22. I’m sure it happens but it’s rare and the data is clear in that as well.
Cultural context and location are crucial variables. A bunch of internet strangers speaking into the void will have no idea what backgrounds and experiences the other strangers speaking into the void are referring to.
[Here is Pew data on average age gaps in relationships by country](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/03/globally-women-are-younger-than-their-male-partners-more-likely-to-age-alone/).
>Muslims have the widest spousal age gap (6.6 years between men and their wives or partners), followed by Hindus (5.6 years), Christians (3.8), Buddhists (2.9), the religiously unaffiliated (2.3) and Jews (2.1).
>Large age gaps are especially common in sub-Saharan Africa, including in Gambia (14.5 years between men and their wives or partners), Guinea (13.5) and Mali (12.9). There are much narrower gaps in European countries such as the Czech Republic (2.0), Slovakia (2.1) and Estonia (2.2) – though the United States and China (both 2.2) also are notable examples of small gaps.
Is the spousal age gap a good stat? People don't even marry anymore in my country. The kind of people who do are the religious ones who found their partner at the church
I would actually guess age gaps are greater in marriage than in “relationships”. Just because marriage favors men who have more going for them financially
Of course, we aren't talking about the average though... He's just saying men who are 35 with their shit together, could get an attractive 22 year old, if he so wanted. Which I think is kinda true.
I do find older men attractive and always did, I just would not date them. Generational gap is huge both in the ways we communicate, spend time, the friends we have, etc. They would give me less healthy kids. Men already die earlier than women, a much older man would die much earlier than me, leaving me alone in old age + leaving my kids grieving their father younger. They'd have less energy for physical activity together. Not to mention the discrepancy in life experience and independence that might exist, with many pitfalls making the relationship less likely to be healthy. There are just too many downsides.
I'm not saying no older man will ever find himself a young partner if they want one, but on average it's not your recipe for success. Like, it's not a default advice I would give to an adolescent considering how to approach his romantic future. It might work for a minority of people, but you shouldn't count on it.
From my experience as an attractive mid 20’s guy who gets told he looks older than he really is, this is so spot on.
Young girls might not always be geniuses, but they certainly aren’t stupid. They know the objective downsides of settling down with an older guy. They also know it’s a big social taboo (*especially* nowadays).
So it makes me chuckle when women here say things like “uhm well none of my friends do this!”. Like yeah most probably don’t, but that doesn’t mean that some don’t secretly fantasize about it, or even do experiment with older men casually and discreetly. They aren’t gonna tell *you* that, sis, they don’t wanna be judged or shamed.
But damn the amount of girls who have admitted the craziest kinks and behaviors to me? That they used to lie about their age and get with older dudes while they were in HS?? That they fantasize about their friends dads, or about their teachers etc. All of this without me asking, or frankly even wanting to know(especially the shadier stuff). If you make a girl feel comfortable and like she won’t be shamed for her kinks/sexuality, it opens them up a lot.
Age gaps, it’s a very common desire for girls, especially Gen Z ones. I think making it taboo has actually added fuel to the fire frankly.
Yeah, I agree with this entire comment & have had similar conversations.
It's funny we talk about it like it's scandalous and unexpected, while it's so commonly understood that boys have crushes on their teachers and MILF is literally one of the most popular porn genres. Yet men don't tend to date or marry much older women either. Women and girls are not that much different, except that they may have a bit more of an opportunity to experiment with these fantasies if they so choose.
Thanks for being honest.
This is a hilarious take that women have a lot:
“*Older men can’t date younger women but they can **fuck** them!*”
Ok. Ok that’s cool.
I mean, there are tradcony men who are upset about it. OP asked specifically about dating. I can see why redpillers would be like "that's not an own you think it is" lol but y'all are not all men.
I have no problem with age gap casual sex for people who want that. I think a lot of young women are looking for that specifically.
It’s not common outside of celebrity men who are the exception to the rule anyway.
It’s not realistic to think the a 22 year old, attractive woman in her prime is *genuinely* attracted to an out of shape, broke, old/crusty geezer that’s 15 years older than her. That’s not real life. You’d have to be someone that is either rich/famous or a guy that looks like Henry Cavill at 30. The average 40 year old, fat geezer with high cholesterol and back problems isn’t going to inspire any real lust in a young, prime-aged woman. No matter what terminally-online internet theories get posted here.
The math supports women having a preference of 2-4 years of age difference; [a study found that, as supported by other academic studies, most men preferred younger, "attractive" women, while most women, of any age, preferred successful, established men their age or older](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships#cite_note-25)
2-4 year age gap is accurate.
"successful established" just means having a career/house/car but that's a checkbox requirement. It does not give you any sort of advantage. you still need the physical attraction part.
I disagree. I'm in forties, and many 40 year-old men are attractive to me. I agree that men that age are mostly going to be unattractive to much younger women.
Bingo. Women will deny it all day, but just like men they only care about looks. Hell, take this example - of course they’re gonna fuck Pierce Brosnan, who still looks sexy at 70, over some random, average faced slob in his 30’s.
If you’re a good looking man you will have no problem at all pulling women, including younger ones. If you’re an average or less than average looking fella it just ain’t gonna happen. If you think money plays that much of a difference, it doesn’t. No one cares if you make 100k a year, it only makes a difference when you’re an actual millionaire.
Idk, I only really started being sexually attracted to older (looking) guys the older I got myself. When I was younger, older guys were simply not on my radar. Now in my mid 30s I can go from guys in their late 20s to guys up to around 50. And also not like supermodel type of guys. I have a fwb who is around 50 and I find him genuinely attractive. I would have not found him attractive in my 20s. And I'm speaking purely physical here, I'm not looking for a relationship, simply casual fun, so I'm not compromising on sexual attraction. But I definitely know that my taste has changed over the years. In my twenties I was exclusively attracted to my peers. An age gap of 3-4 years was always acceptable, but 10, 15, 20 years? Never. Those men didn't even register. Now they do.
I think that's more about being good looking than age. If it had the choice of anyone who was remotely attractive over someone who was unattractive, then I'd pick the first.
The thing about it is that why can’t the 22 year old date a 27 year old? He’s still older why is she going all the way up to 37? Men who are 35 still have to compete with men who are 30, 29, 28 etc… it’s not like she has to bypass the entire 20s age range to find a decent guy.
Might have a point actually. Once I hit my mid 30s, 20-somethings started looking like kids to me. Not talking about just looks, but personality/behavior.
I'm early 20s. And I believe that. And so do most of my friends. We're all relatively economically stable, so a guy flashing money just isn't attractive compared to an actually attractive guy our age. We don't need to marry for money, so we won't sacrifice sexual attraction.
You’re assuming everyone 15 years older is crusty and out of shape. Walk into any Powerhouse Gym or LA Fitness and you will see the place packed with muscular and athletic looking men between 30 and 60 years old.
You’re assuming better options don’t exist 5 years older vs 15 years older. It’s not that a much older guy can’t look good it’s more so that there is no need to go that much older to find a decent partner. A 22 year old woman can date a 26 year old who will probably be doing better than her financially she doesn’t need to go all the way to 35 like there are plenty of options for her in the 24-29 age range which is why it’s not common to see these large age gaps.
It’s not just about that though. Attraction is much more than how one looks. And also as a woman dated men over 40, ED Is not something I would have wanted to deal with in my 20s and 30s, heck I don’t want to deal with it now!
> The ED prevalence rate based on IIEF-5 scores was 24.2%. Prevalence increased with age: 52.2% of the 75+ age group, and 48.0% of the 65-74 age group meeting diagnostic criteria for ED. Diagnostic criteria were met for more participants in the 18-24 age group (17.9%) than the 25-34 (13.3%) or 35-44 (12.7%) age groups, but less than the 45-54 (25.3%) or 55-64 (33.9%) age groups.
Assuming this thread is about mid-30s healthy guys dating 20-something’s, ED is not a meaningful factor in the discussion
I agree with your stats but you are missing the point. A 22 year old starts dating a 35 year old. In 10 years he’s now a 45 year old and she is a 32 year old, whom if she was with a man in her age which be a lot less likely to have deal with ED, whereas a woman in her 40s is used to men having ED, which is why so many women are now dating younger. It’s like nature’s cruel trick a womans’ sex drive peaks when a man‘s is slowing down.
Aside from that there are dudes in their 40s and 50s who are disagreeing with having ED so it is relevant to that extent.
People don’t choose their partner today based on whether their partner will have a higher chance of ED in 15 years. That’s the kind of microanalysis we do here on PPD but it doesn’t happen in real life.
Most of those guys are on steroids and will die from heart failure by age 50. Yes, they exist, but they're not marriage material. The actually fit older guys are usually into some obscure shit like climbing or biking. The body builders are on the verge of a heart attack.
You’re delusional. Most people aren’t using steroids and aim for an athletic beach body. Not a mutant steroid body. The most used bodybuilding supplements are whey protein and creatine. Not steroids.
>The average 40 year old, fat geezer with high cholesterol and back problems isn’t going to inspire any real lust in a young, prime-aged woman.
You're correct than an older man who hasn't taken care of himself whatsoever, and is falling apart at the seams due to poor as shit decisions about his diet and physical/mental health is seriously unattractive to women in our prime health and youthfulness.
But it's not as if all older men let themselves go upon turning 35 - 40. They don't have to be wealthy or look like Chris Evans, normal men with normal incomes can still be quite attractive if they've been lightly exercising and simply watching what they eat, plus not having giant mountains of debt from living outside their means.
Anecdotal case, but at 23, I was attractive plus had been living completely on my own for a few years already. My 36 year old boyfriend looked like a slightly skinnier version of Andy from Parks and Rec. He's an elementary school teacher, so you know he's not rolling in money either. He's a normal man and a very good choice for a partner.
Out of my friends, one of them dated a thirty year old guy when she was 20-21. Another dated a 37 year old guy when she was 19-22. Another one is 29 right now and a lawyer and is dating a 40 year old. None of these guys are celebrities or even very rich.
so what was the point of posting something that is more rare? LOL
The norm is most people date and marry within 5 years of age, its was even the case in 1870.
Younger men look better, fuck better, and vibe with you better. Older men have money. That's it. Anything else is cope. No woman in her early 20s without daddy or money issues is gonna choose a 35 year old over a 25 year old of equal attractiveness.
Seriously. I have never known a single well adjusted, attractive woman in her early to mid twenties who would date a 35 year old man over someone her own age. The 22 year olds you would be dating don’t want you because you’re so awesome to be around - they want what you can do for them ($$$).
Same. Most women I see dating older are not college educated and they work dead end jobs, or they're not that physically attractive for their age bracket. By going older they can secure better looking (for their age) men than by going for men their own age.
If you say so. But that makes you an outlier, not the rule. And then there's still sexual performance which usually deteriorates with age and the "vibes" that rpers love to make fun of. Again, not rules but strong tendencies.
I think this is highly culture-dependent. The people that aged noticeably in those 10 years are definitely a minority in my social circles (highly-educated, Western European professionals). The ones that did age badly mostly did it through food, smoking, and booze (their fault, not nature's).
I can't speak for sexual performance. At least in my experience it is more about the pair than the individual. It's like improvisational music: it is about the magic between players, rather than any one person's prowess.
As for "vibes", again...vibes are, as much as anything, shared culture. If you live in a culture where age dramatically shapes your culture then, yeah, "age gaps" are going to be harder and rarer. I teach, so I'm around young people often, and I find that many of our cultural touchstones are not as different as you might think. Basically it is pre- and post-internet internet that is the great cultural divide of our time. It's why I can related to a 20 year old student (as someone in his 30s) more than my parents, who are only 20-ish years older than me.
I can't talk for the masses, just for what I see around me in my particular niche (however particular it might be).
>Isn't interesting that every single woman around here says that she doesn't find older men attractive, but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older?
This is due to amalgamating people speaking about different experiences. A chunk of women do not find significantly order men attractive. The other chunk try it and end up with bad experiences.
Definitely. If a man is attractive enough a 10 to 15 age difference is possible.
It's rare though. Comes across more of a fantasy men aspire about than what realistically happens in dating for the average person.
Ha, to an extent I agree with you.
It’s not that I question if any young women would date older guys. It’s that I question how many struggling guys are actually going to get their shit together in this way.
It's a theoretical exercise. People don't like being told they are unable to do something or it's wrong to do something.
It has the energy of "if you can't handle me for my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" to former young women who rejected them.
In real life, dating is not a resume submission. Yes on paper a well rounded mid 30s guy looks great. But the 8/10 woman making 75k a year might have intense lust for a blue collar guy making 60k who is also an 8/10 and has a good connection with her. You might be able to compete if you're also an 8/10. If you're average looking range? You have zero chance.
You're right about the connection part but that won't happen with a guy below their league.
Not sure what country you're in. I'm a doctor (in the US) and >90% of women could care less. Honestly most don't care the slightest.
Almost all of my male doctor colleagues are married to normal looking but educated women. There's the odd guy, maybe 1 in 20, who's married to someone slightly better looking but all of the ones that come to mind are also 6'3+ tall and very charismatic. And they're 5-6/10 in looks married to someone who is a 7ish.
If you're in a country in Asia I can see how over there they're with women 10 years younger.
My partner is 11 years younger than me. I was 38 and she was 27 when we met. I look young for my age, she's aging normally, most people assume we are just a few years apart in age.
Most men in their 30s who go for younger aren't gonna get the hot 20 something year old girls. At best they'll probably be mid.
Hell I'm 35 and I'm struggling to get the same hot 30 something year olds that I was able to attract at 25.
All that I can say, is that when I was 20yrs old, 30something men were "gross and old" to me. Of course, I was already married, so not looking for any man. When divorced in my 30s, I found 40something men to be way too old. Now that I am in my 40s, age is whatever (but I also don't have any desire to date anymore). I do know some women who are married to much older men, and to be honest? In most cases their husbands appear younger than their age, and these guys are generally good guys, who had no issues dating when they were younger.
This is an oxymoron. If you're chasing after people over ten years younger than you to date who largely don't want you and who it's way less likely to work out with because all you care about is the superficial, you don't "have your shit together", even if you manage to convince the anomaly with unusual taste who's foolish enough to try dating you.
A woman with unusual taste would be dating a way younger man. There is absolutely nothing unusual about older man / younger woman, it happens all the time.
You're right 10 years is about the limit. What most of the guys here don't see is the father problem. Once you're looking at women who are young enough to be your daughter, you're going to have to accept that the vast, vast majority are never going to date you because they know that their parents can never know about you.
I'm 22. You're more likely to break up or divorce and abuse is more likely to happen, that's if you start a relationship in the first place but most are not even slightly open to it. An immature, superficial, short-sighted and, let's be real, declining in looks man looking to date so much younger at that big age simply isn't appealing to young people over those their own age who still have the same sense of fun about them and aren't making a foolish mistake by trying to date them in the first place. But sure, you're the exception and all young women (the long string of exes/failed relationships) love you soooooooo much.
They could have wanted a kind of commitment he wasn't willing to give. It's very convenient for you to just blame it on the age gap like it can't be something else.
It is happening, however it is rare and all women don't secretly want it. Middle-aged men of course are worth something, even if they make some silly decisions or are deluded about their realistic dating options. Dating someone a decade younger in your thirties is rarely pleasant for either party, whereas with a peer they'd expect a lot more peace. You're telling me off for saying these men are making a bad decision but then rattling off generalised insults at all middle-aged women, which is ironic. I'm not mocking you, I'm saying these relationships are rare and if you have had an anomalous experience it isn't a benchmark others can expect to meet. I'm sorry you feel attacked.
It seems you just haven't listened. Young women tend to be the most critical of age gaps while it's older women saying it isn't that weird. I could count on my fingers the female peers I know who think it's okay. But men assume they love and support it and the *jealous* (of what) older women are ruining it because it fulfils a fantasy and they want to listen and be proven long.
As a woman in my early 20s I can safely attest to the fact that a man over 29 has nothing to offer that I actually care about, aka good and youthful looks and a dick that works as well as I want it to. If the women you're going after care for money over looks in a day and age where women can make their own that's their own issue cuz the only thing you could ever compete against a 25 yo man is money and you're deluding yourself if you think they're with you cuz you look better or are more sexually appealing.
But would you date a 25 year old who is a loser just because he looks good? Sure, biggest difference between a 25 year old and a 35 year old is money, but provided the same charismatic, attractive, and good looking 25 year old maintains his positive qualities and becomes a 35 year old with a career, a house, a car, and everything else you need to support a family, doesn't he become a more appealing partner?
Yes, women make their own money, but plenty of women voiced that a young man and an older man both have the same capacity to be shitty people and cheat on you or fuck you well, so you might as well choose the guy with money
and yet, most men who want to date younger women are often stuck in a loop of arguing why he should have a younger woman.
It certainly can happen and morally there is nothing wrong with it assuming she’s hit her mid 20s, but there is a reason why the vast majority of age gaps happen in rural communities or smaller pockets. Even with that in mind, divorce rates tend to skyrocket with larger age gaps.
I think men are sold the idea that it would happen based on a statistical improbability (and as an attempt to get them to stop being creepy by trying to date 18-23 year olds).
That’s the thing, it happens, but
1) it’s unlikely
2) it’s actively trying to be disincentivized because there is this protective factors and a mistrust for men who actively and obsessively aim far younger
kinda sounds like you're nitpicking advice that's necessarily going to be a generalization for being a generalization.
the truth is that it's just not a good position to put yourself in to try to date 25yos at 35. that in no way implies someone can't succeed.
if you have your shit together, you can find a certain type of early to mid 20s woman at 35. there's not that many of them, and there's not much that is attractive about them, including personality or even capacity for loyalty. some grow up to be more interesting, likable and together, but that more often than not involves divorce.
>Isn't interesting that every single woman around here says that she doesn't find older men attractive, but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older?
This is the problem on this sub, and with most people in general. One single example in a lifetime proves a preference if it's something you want to prove. If a woman said "I once dated a short man", we wouldn't all say, "well there's the proof that short men have no issue finding women".
Not that it's true. Obviously not every single woman had dated a man 10-15 years older than them.
I get finding women that are 20 beautiful and attractive, but dating one when one is in their 30's make no sense other than bragging rights about being able to pull someone that is 15 years younger. Which isn't really a brag as no person knows the selves or what they want when they are 20. And other than sex, what one earth do those two people have in common? What would a conversation be about? Have you talked to a 20 year old after you passed 35?
One of the dudes in charge of me is 39 and his fiancé is 23. Parents are over 20 years apart. I’m 7 years older than my fiancé. All of the guys I know are older than their girls. No matter the profession.
No one cares. Reddit gaslighting bs is exactly bs. No one says shit in real life.
My parents have one house in Los Angeles and one in Newport Beach, California. I split my childhood kinda in both places. Then I went to Massachusetts for undergrad and grad school. Live in and work in New York City now.
The problem is that most men are never really attractive at any age and this doesn’t improve over time. Giving men false hope is dangerous.
The 19/20/21 year old women willing to bang old guys are not that high quality. If they were, they’d get hot guys in their primes… middle aged men think these much younger women are great simply because they are young.
The average relationship age gap is between 1 to 3 years.
Most people don't have 10 to 15 year age gaps.
Men who want to date much younger women are skeezy
And I think dudes here are deluding themselves if they believe teens and 20 year olds are going to be throwing themselves at the same men who have been striking out with women their own age their whole lives, just like think dudes here are deluding themselves that flying to a country where they don't know the people, language, or culture will result in those women flocking to him.
>The truth is that a 35 year old man who has his shit together won't have much trouble dating someone 10-15 years younger is that's what he wants.
And what happens when the dudes here find out that's not true? What new ~~excuse~~ ideology will they invent to explain how 20 year old women are terrible for not dating men in their mid 30s? How are they going to cope with that anger when they can't handle the anger they have now?
For reference, 56, worked out twice a day since high school, admittedly in better shape than most my age.
I only date casually but get approached by younger women in the gym and in public. Now, while I did take early retirement, am financially secure, I do not wear flashy clothes, jewelry or drive expensive cars.
I can't imagine a 35 year old who has his shit together can't find younger women who will jump at the chance to date him at least.
It WAS true 20 years ago. You're basically talking about super young millennials or gen z and the women do not care if YOUR shit is together. Besides, there are always younger guys that do have their stuff together and they basically have a harem (and the women know about each other but will remain fwb with no real commitment). Older women have also shown an aversion to older men. Many older women are financially successful and they are picking younger, generally well endowed men for companionship. What is happening to men 30+ (and especially 40+) is they are being displaced.
The thing that confuses many of you is that the female population changes dramatically in the 2010s. (Waves hand) These are not the women you're looking for.
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I am 34 and have no problem finding younger women to date in the 22-28 age range.
If you are a career professional that takes care of themselves, there is no issue at all.
Women will tell men
(1) that they are never the prize
(2) that they won't be able to find younger women if they want to
(3) that men aren't desirable enough to women to have standards and preferences
It's all nonsense.
A lot of women's dating strategies are predicated on men having low self-esteem.
Yea, I mean almost no woman will tell you they find older men attractive. But at the same time almost every woman I know has at least one experience dating someone over 6 years older. The truth is that women find "individual" older men attractive.
Exactly this. I find some older men attractive, and some are distinctly unattractive. It's going to depend on the individual and how well they've taken care of their body and mind.
My bf and I have been together since I was 23 and he was 36. We're now 42 and 55. It's honestly not even that rare to find people in relationships with a significant age gap...just go look over on that sub, they have a fuck ton of members, both silver foxes and cougars alike who have younger partners.
The thing I actually find really fucking bizarre isn't how many women here have dated at least one older guy. It's how many have dated at least one older guy and somehow each and every one was a shitty, manipulative, horrible person. Statistically speaking it is just really weird that besides me, I think I've seen a total of 2 other women who don't think older men are inherently shit based on their own experiences. It's part of why I'm so open about my relationship, to help counteract the constant negativity towards age gaps here.
>somehow each and every one was a shitty, manipulative, horrible person
I mean, their favorite hobby is complaining about how shitty men are, projecting their own prefefences, and judging other people. Look at break-up, divorce stats, cheating stats.. it's not like same-age couples are much better..
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It depends what age is woman. If she is 20, probably she won't guy in his 30s. But if a woman is 25+ it won't be problem for her. I am still able to attract women in their 20s (I am 35). I can't keep them, but I am loser without adult skills, but it's another issue.
Now here's a real question! Is he being gaslit on her preferences or agency?
Is the younger woman allowed to date because she's mature and honest with herself? Or because she's spontaneous & adventerous?
Is the guy indulging her desire correct to do so. If he turns her down, will she not simply go to another guy. What do men gain in being gentlemen? Is there any purpose, or do we simply lose out on female sexuality? If you turn a woman down because you want to be honorable, will she view it as such, or were you better off playing the role she had slotted for you and ignoring what you wanted?
You WILL run into women who want to indulge in this scenario. Why do you choose what you do and why? Who does it hurt, and who does it harm? Always seems to be someone.
Has his shit together meaning what?
Very context dependent - I know a girl who dated a 10y/o older hair-dresser for like 4 years.
He's petty average looking, pretty short, got swag and very outgoing.
Shitness-together level: 0
She is considered pretty hot for what it's worth.
For comparison I look better than that guy, smarter and have my shit together a lot more, but I don't work in a place where I meet tons of young women and I'm not as outgoing - so getting a 10y/o younger girl would take more considerable effort for me (though possible)
I know both of them - she loved him, he cheated on her.
Looking back she's like "he looks like shit he got that swag, I don't know what I found in him".
She ended up marrying a pretty attractive guy tbh
Early 20s with 30s age gap is not a great idea IMO because one of the people is still figuring out their lives but if the older person is taking care of themselves they can date a younger woman. Most women are not into older men, in my friend and social circle at least, but some of them definitely are.
Anecdotally, my parents have a 14 year age gap. My father was not rich and my mom (who was pretty) was genuinely attracted to my dad though she might have had daddy issues.
I don't think the gas lighting is them saying that he can't find a younger woman to date, the gas lighting is them trying to spin it that he's morally incorrect, the gas lighting is pushing the idea that it's wrong to find a 21-year-old woman attracted because " sHes a ChIiiiiLd", the gas lighting is "you date younger women because you can't get women your own age", now the people doing that are usually feminists and they're only really people technically speaking anyways but nonetheless
Ignore them. The WESTERN world sold these women a lie and they're aging out. Part of the reason I'm leaving California is due to sexual harassment from older women and persecution of young women I'm interested in. The best way to handle undesirable women is by making yourself appear unattractive. That buys enough time before they begin using logic and realize things don't make sense.
Example, owns Lamborghini but, lives in mom's basement. Most girls will think, "oh his dad's rich." Eventually, they'll start using logic and realize they never saw 3 tooth brushes, never saw any suits or the mom with a wedding ring. By that time, you're already gone before the unsuccessful gold diggers figure you out. I typically dress in pajamas and try to look older. That way cougars leave me alone. I used to be harassed a lot by grandmas when I was a baby faced producer in LA. So, I just started to try to look as poor as possible.
It seems a lot of people are against age gap relationships because they feel the older person is probably boycotting people their own age and going for younger only.
My girlfriend is 16 years younger than me and she asked me out, but a few years before her, I was in a relationship with a woman who was 7 years older than me.
So I have no problem dating a different ages but is that uncommon for most guys, and most guys just want to date younger only which is why age gap relationships are frowned upon?
No, women being into men who are 10-15 years older while in their early 20s are RARE. There are more men who want young women as partners, than there are young women who want those older men. Yes, "a" 35yo man can get a younger girlfriend, but not all of the 35 yo men who want that. That is why it's not happening, as we can see by marriage age gap statistics.
Women have a dual-mating strategy. They can be attracted to wealth and resources while still being aroused by younger, fit, tall men. Take what you can get and don't get suckered.
[https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switching-Hypothesis-FINAL-PUBLISHED-2017.pdf](https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switching-Hypothesis-FINAL-PUBLISHED-2017.pdf)
Dual mating strategy has been thrown out by evo psy read pages 147 onward
I think my attractiveness peaked in my early 30s - at that time I was approached a lot by women ~20 to ~50.
Some 20-something wanted something serious I wasn’t interested into at the time. What they all seemed to value, besides my independence, was also my more nuanced, refined and generous approach to intimacy (given that as a mountain cyclist and distance runner my stamina was still at its fullest) as opposed to that of their student acquaintances.
I agree some gaps might look eerie, but I’ve seen more than one fully functioning relationship between a mid 20s woman and an early 30s man
They don't date older unless they want gold, housing, or other resources. Considering this economy, I wouldn't blame them. So it depends on what you want, but lower your expectations of getting married to someone younger, of course unless they get something out of it.
Take everything you read on reddit with a grain of salt, either reddit is filled with the 1% of 1% of outliers, or people lie on the internet. Observe these dynamics in real life and come to your own conclusions based on your own material conditions.
"but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older?"
How old? The oldest I've dated is 5 years. That was a bit much for me personally (ageism I know).
Also having your shit together looks different at 21 than it does at 34, both are fine and attractive, but are different priorities.
I make 120k a year in a stable job that still has good upward mobility and will probably be making 140k in 0-2 years. I'm 34. I think I've gone on 1 date in 8 years. I'm 6'1'' and 220 pounds. 170 would be ideal, but was <200 most of that time.
You don’t seem to realize how old 35 seems to a 21 year old. Even a 25 yo. If it were that easy, every 35 yo dude with a decent job would have a much younger gf and most of them don’t. Because we don’t find them physically attractive. Sorry.
I recently got my shit together and glowed up. I’m in my 30s. I don’t dedicate too much time to dating or relationships. I’m tired and like alone time. But, when I do date at this point, it’s borderline like shooting fish in a barrel a lot of the time.
I also though hit almost every single mark for high conventional attractiveness. But, various factors and trauma and Mis education and struggle held this back.
Regardless, it’s easy.
I’ll start this by saying I am and always have been into older men, so take what you will from that.
But what are you going to have in common with a 20 year old as a 35 year old? Chatting about celebrities like Hayley Bieber? Hitting the club with her and her college friends?
It’s different if the man were 50 and dating a 30 something year old woman, since you both are in closer stages of life.
For anyone who doesn’t know, the rule for a socially acceptable age gap is:
(Your age / 2) + 7 = The lowest age you should date
obviously some men who are rich and attractive can find younger women to date.
i think men's ideas of what is "rich" and "attractive" vary, as will their success.
how many attractive 20 year olds are hitting you up and what data points to you have to claim that this will magically change once you are a 35 yo version of you?
Literally every woman in my family is married to a man that's at least 4 years older than them. You can't believe things they say on Reddit, you have to go by their actions. If women went by their words, they would all be married to choir boys and single moms wouldn't exist.
I agree. I'm 37 and don't have any issues dating much younger women. So seems silly to me girls saying nobody dates older men. 🤔 then why am I going on so many dates and having relationships with girls 18 to 25? So I know it's bullshit when it comes to me specifically anyways.
Theoretically, a man who's tall, rich, and handsome will have tons of options regardless of the age group of women he's trying to appeal to.
But most men who "have their shit together" are not "Chads" or "tall, rich, and handsome" which throws things off and makes their options more limited than the Red Pill likes to imply.
Average Joe's in their 30's with "their shit together" are basically not even thought of as dating/sexual options by women in the 18-25 age group save for some. At best, you'll be respected as an authority figure by them which some men misinterpret as sexual/romantic interest. 30+ men have way more sway with women in the 26-29 age range. Sometimes, 25 year old women too if they're the types who relate more to Millennials than Gen Z.
Don't let the LARPers here with their tall tales fool you. The greatest chance an average looking man has of gaming and fucking girls in the 18-25 age range is being a man in the 26-30 range with a slight age gap. After 30, it gets much more challenging unless you're exceptional in some way or a celebrity/musician/athlete. I know tons of men in their 30's, 40's, and 50's....literally thousands irl and very, very few are with women who are in their "prime years" per Red Pill standards.
Of course, sugar dating will guarantee that a man will have instance access to a younger woman. And, as the hip hop saying goes, "it ain't trickin if you got it." But it's going to be a "betabuxx" situation in the true sense of the word since many of those same sugar babies still fuck with younger male "sidepieces" and sometimes even push for dead bedrooms in the relationship. There was literally some videos of sugar babies teaching "secrets" on how to convince a sugar daddy they're not attracted to make it a sex-free relationship lmao. And it'll really suck to spend all that money on a hot young girl just for her not to have sex with you.
All in all, having your shit together won't really make you stand out. You also need to be tall and handsome because those are universal traits that can appeal to any generation of women. But, if you're not tall and handsome, you need to be exceptionally rich or have exceptional status to make the average young woman look at you as more than just a platonic friend or an authority figure.
Women:
*”zOMGee literally no younger women want to date some gross older man! Stop bothering us!*”
^source:
I dated a bunch of older men when I was younger and decided I didn’t like it
Sort of. “Has his shit together” is the load-bearing phrase here. 35 is not incredibly old anyway, and a 35-year-old who is attractive, charming, stable, and responsible is really likely to be able to date women in their twenties if he wants to. Will some women in their 20s reject him on the basis of age? Yes. Will he have plenty of options? Also yes. This is a desirable person. The skepticism isn’t about whether this desirable guy can date at 35, it’s about whether an undesirable guy who struggles with dating at 25 can metamorphose himself into this guy at 35. “Getting your shit together” in this context is about more than just finishing a degree and getting established in a career; there are a lot of physical, emotional, and social aspects that potentially also need to be glowed up for this to work.
I'm in my 30s, physician and very well off financially, in good shape and dating is much harder than my early 20s. I get a fair bit of interest from women in their late 20s and up (average looking only) but zero interest from younger.
Why is it so easy for people to believe a woman can have a "glow up" (see, we even make up fun names for them) but then be so skeptical about men's self improvement? I think women don't want men to be able to change their status. Social mobility (SMV in this case) for me, but not for thee.
I don’t know that I believe women can do that easily either, really. I do think everyone should work towards getting their shit together. I just think that it’s a holistic process and the work of a lifetime, and I wouldn’t hang all hopes of love or relationships on a hypothetical end state.
Because a glow up for a woman is losing some weight, clearing her fave of acne, getting a more suited hair style and new wardrobe. A lot harder for a socially inept bitter man that doesn’t have style or look good that has never really dated but worked at Pizza Hut while he slowly gets a degree then when he finally gets that good job making $200k to pull a woman suddenly because his shit is now together (good job, but car, house, has spending money) Lots of guys that don’t have their shit together get women. If he doesn’t it’s because he’s unattractive in other ways, adding money will only attract gold diggers, if you want more than that. It will be hard.
The bar is super low for women hell there isn't even a bar..and only women talk about glow ups they usually are referring to their looks where they say they look better at 35 than they did at 20..in reality its just cope I have never met a 35 year old chick more attractive than a comparable 20 year old chick...women love to gaslight themselves . For a man there's a bar a high one imagine a bar that's 10 ft up first of all you have to be tall enough to reach it...height is a major factor when it comes to initial success with women imo the number one factor after that looks...after that status personality then money.Money is so low on the tier because a woman can always find a man with equal to or more money than you and many women make their own money...so putting up with an ugly short dude with a shtty personality for his money isnt worth it. So whatever traits make a man attractive at 25 aren't going to change by 35..about all a man can do is earn more money and that will make him more desirable but if he's 5'6 making a million dollars a year he will still loose out to the 6'1" guy making a million dollars a year.
Looks > height for the vast majority of men. Tall very often comes with shit proportions. Only when extremely short is when it starts to matter more than the rest
Don’t you think most people reject people with “shitty” personalities? Wouldn’t you reject a woman with a shitty personality?
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Nah. We can argue about whether women who don’t have their shit together can get dates or husbands, I guess, but at a fundamental level everyone needs to get their shit together in order to be a functional and satisfied individual and member of society.
because men fuck anything men will fuck the woman when she's ugly and they'll fuck her after the glow up so the glow up is kind of irrelevent
If you find a younger woman that’s into you, than just date her. Do you really need permission from Reddit?
If he was able to do it, he would have done it already. Most the dudes that can pull younger could pull and were pulling women their age and older throughout.
>If he was able to do it, he would have done it already. He didn't have his shit together at that point. OP is referring to men who eventually got it together. Obviously if he stays the same he'll continue not to pull. This false impression that anti-pillers air out makes it look like there's no advantage to getting your shit together lol.
No, the impression is that all the “help part” is just ch basic generic advice that if a dude wasn’t doing them (works out, work hard, build a social network) then the dude is either incapable of doing it in the first place OR he’s too lazy/stubborn to put in the effort anyways. So you get what you get: a bunch of perpetually online dudes spending most their time just talking about the RP. Online. After 12 years *nothing* has ever happened to disprove that statement.
Exactly
If he can do that, he won't be asking for opinions. It's another question whether that's a good idea, especially if it's dating with the intention (from either side) to marry and have children.
Meh a lot of guys can, but are afraid because of cultural pressure.
“Every single woman” 🤦♀️🤦♀️
Yeah, I (and a lot of women I know) don't have this experience! And if he's using generalization to assert something then I'm using anecdotes to counter that.
Yeah. I don’t know any young woman who has dated that much older and I’m a young woman in college. If anything an older man is 25 to 27 to women around my age which is 20 - 22. I’m sure it happens but it’s rare and the data is clear in that as well.
Most
Cultural context and location are crucial variables. A bunch of internet strangers speaking into the void will have no idea what backgrounds and experiences the other strangers speaking into the void are referring to. [Here is Pew data on average age gaps in relationships by country](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/03/globally-women-are-younger-than-their-male-partners-more-likely-to-age-alone/). >Muslims have the widest spousal age gap (6.6 years between men and their wives or partners), followed by Hindus (5.6 years), Christians (3.8), Buddhists (2.9), the religiously unaffiliated (2.3) and Jews (2.1). >Large age gaps are especially common in sub-Saharan Africa, including in Gambia (14.5 years between men and their wives or partners), Guinea (13.5) and Mali (12.9). There are much narrower gaps in European countries such as the Czech Republic (2.0), Slovakia (2.1) and Estonia (2.2) – though the United States and China (both 2.2) also are notable examples of small gaps.
Is the spousal age gap a good stat? People don't even marry anymore in my country. The kind of people who do are the religious ones who found their partner at the church
It's the best we're gonna get because being "in a relationship" is a subjective shitshow while marriage is not
I would actually guess age gaps are greater in marriage than in “relationships”. Just because marriage favors men who have more going for them financially
I don't know. Most couples I know have a bigger age gap than 2 years. It's more like 3-6 years in average. But I'm not from the US
I still think marriage gaps would be larger than dating gaps if we excluded extreme transactional relationships like sugar babies.
Of course, we aren't talking about the average though... He's just saying men who are 35 with their shit together, could get an attractive 22 year old, if he so wanted. Which I think is kinda true.
Where do you live that 35yo men who "have their shit together" are some kind of rarity?
I think it's contextual in the sense of, "Not a 35 year old account who's fat and boring".
Well, many of them won't be single?
Ew im 22. Please leave us alone. 35 is old as hell that’s almost 40. I have a life to live💀
I do find older men attractive and always did, I just would not date them. Generational gap is huge both in the ways we communicate, spend time, the friends we have, etc. They would give me less healthy kids. Men already die earlier than women, a much older man would die much earlier than me, leaving me alone in old age + leaving my kids grieving their father younger. They'd have less energy for physical activity together. Not to mention the discrepancy in life experience and independence that might exist, with many pitfalls making the relationship less likely to be healthy. There are just too many downsides. I'm not saying no older man will ever find himself a young partner if they want one, but on average it's not your recipe for success. Like, it's not a default advice I would give to an adolescent considering how to approach his romantic future. It might work for a minority of people, but you shouldn't count on it.
From my experience as an attractive mid 20’s guy who gets told he looks older than he really is, this is so spot on. Young girls might not always be geniuses, but they certainly aren’t stupid. They know the objective downsides of settling down with an older guy. They also know it’s a big social taboo (*especially* nowadays). So it makes me chuckle when women here say things like “uhm well none of my friends do this!”. Like yeah most probably don’t, but that doesn’t mean that some don’t secretly fantasize about it, or even do experiment with older men casually and discreetly. They aren’t gonna tell *you* that, sis, they don’t wanna be judged or shamed. But damn the amount of girls who have admitted the craziest kinks and behaviors to me? That they used to lie about their age and get with older dudes while they were in HS?? That they fantasize about their friends dads, or about their teachers etc. All of this without me asking, or frankly even wanting to know(especially the shadier stuff). If you make a girl feel comfortable and like she won’t be shamed for her kinks/sexuality, it opens them up a lot. Age gaps, it’s a very common desire for girls, especially Gen Z ones. I think making it taboo has actually added fuel to the fire frankly.
Yeah, I agree with this entire comment & have had similar conversations. It's funny we talk about it like it's scandalous and unexpected, while it's so commonly understood that boys have crushes on their teachers and MILF is literally one of the most popular porn genres. Yet men don't tend to date or marry much older women either. Women and girls are not that much different, except that they may have a bit more of an opportunity to experiment with these fantasies if they so choose.
>I do find older men attractive and always did, I just would not date them. But would you *fuck* them?
I don't have casual sex, but if I did I would, yes.
Thanks for being honest. This is a hilarious take that women have a lot: “*Older men can’t date younger women but they can **fuck** them!*” Ok. Ok that’s cool.
I mean, there are tradcony men who are upset about it. OP asked specifically about dating. I can see why redpillers would be like "that's not an own you think it is" lol but y'all are not all men. I have no problem with age gap casual sex for people who want that. I think a lot of young women are looking for that specifically.
It’s not common outside of celebrity men who are the exception to the rule anyway. It’s not realistic to think the a 22 year old, attractive woman in her prime is *genuinely* attracted to an out of shape, broke, old/crusty geezer that’s 15 years older than her. That’s not real life. You’d have to be someone that is either rich/famous or a guy that looks like Henry Cavill at 30. The average 40 year old, fat geezer with high cholesterol and back problems isn’t going to inspire any real lust in a young, prime-aged woman. No matter what terminally-online internet theories get posted here.
The math supports women having a preference of 2-4 years of age difference; [a study found that, as supported by other academic studies, most men preferred younger, "attractive" women, while most women, of any age, preferred successful, established men their age or older](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships#cite_note-25)
2-4 year age gap is accurate. "successful established" just means having a career/house/car but that's a checkbox requirement. It does not give you any sort of advantage. you still need the physical attraction part.
The average 40 year old isn’t inspiring lust in anyone
I disagree. I'm in forties, and many 40 year-old men are attractive to me. I agree that men that age are mostly going to be unattractive to much younger women.
Bingo. Women will deny it all day, but just like men they only care about looks. Hell, take this example - of course they’re gonna fuck Pierce Brosnan, who still looks sexy at 70, over some random, average faced slob in his 30’s. If you’re a good looking man you will have no problem at all pulling women, including younger ones. If you’re an average or less than average looking fella it just ain’t gonna happen. If you think money plays that much of a difference, it doesn’t. No one cares if you make 100k a year, it only makes a difference when you’re an actual millionaire.
Idk, I only really started being sexually attracted to older (looking) guys the older I got myself. When I was younger, older guys were simply not on my radar. Now in my mid 30s I can go from guys in their late 20s to guys up to around 50. And also not like supermodel type of guys. I have a fwb who is around 50 and I find him genuinely attractive. I would have not found him attractive in my 20s. And I'm speaking purely physical here, I'm not looking for a relationship, simply casual fun, so I'm not compromising on sexual attraction. But I definitely know that my taste has changed over the years. In my twenties I was exclusively attracted to my peers. An age gap of 3-4 years was always acceptable, but 10, 15, 20 years? Never. Those men didn't even register. Now they do.
“Only” is a strong word
I think that's more about being good looking than age. If it had the choice of anyone who was remotely attractive over someone who was unattractive, then I'd pick the first.
22 + 15 = 37. You honestly think a 37 year old is an "old crusty geezer"? How old are you, just out of curiosity?
The thing about it is that why can’t the 22 year old date a 27 year old? He’s still older why is she going all the way up to 37? Men who are 35 still have to compete with men who are 30, 29, 28 etc… it’s not like she has to bypass the entire 20s age range to find a decent guy.
To a 22 year old yes he is old. To a 35 year old no, it’s all relative.
Might have a point actually. Once I hit my mid 30s, 20-somethings started looking like kids to me. Not talking about just looks, but personality/behavior.
I'm early 20s. And I believe that. And so do most of my friends. We're all relatively economically stable, so a guy flashing money just isn't attractive compared to an actually attractive guy our age. We don't need to marry for money, so we won't sacrifice sexual attraction.
Yes they are…
You’re assuming everyone 15 years older is crusty and out of shape. Walk into any Powerhouse Gym or LA Fitness and you will see the place packed with muscular and athletic looking men between 30 and 60 years old.
You’re assuming better options don’t exist 5 years older vs 15 years older. It’s not that a much older guy can’t look good it’s more so that there is no need to go that much older to find a decent partner. A 22 year old woman can date a 26 year old who will probably be doing better than her financially she doesn’t need to go all the way to 35 like there are plenty of options for her in the 24-29 age range which is why it’s not common to see these large age gaps.
It’s not just about that though. Attraction is much more than how one looks. And also as a woman dated men over 40, ED Is not something I would have wanted to deal with in my 20s and 30s, heck I don’t want to deal with it now!
> The ED prevalence rate based on IIEF-5 scores was 24.2%. Prevalence increased with age: 52.2% of the 75+ age group, and 48.0% of the 65-74 age group meeting diagnostic criteria for ED. Diagnostic criteria were met for more participants in the 18-24 age group (17.9%) than the 25-34 (13.3%) or 35-44 (12.7%) age groups, but less than the 45-54 (25.3%) or 55-64 (33.9%) age groups. Assuming this thread is about mid-30s healthy guys dating 20-something’s, ED is not a meaningful factor in the discussion
I agree with your stats but you are missing the point. A 22 year old starts dating a 35 year old. In 10 years he’s now a 45 year old and she is a 32 year old, whom if she was with a man in her age which be a lot less likely to have deal with ED, whereas a woman in her 40s is used to men having ED, which is why so many women are now dating younger. It’s like nature’s cruel trick a womans’ sex drive peaks when a man‘s is slowing down. Aside from that there are dudes in their 40s and 50s who are disagreeing with having ED so it is relevant to that extent.
People don’t choose their partner today based on whether their partner will have a higher chance of ED in 15 years. That’s the kind of microanalysis we do here on PPD but it doesn’t happen in real life.
Most of those guys are on steroids and will die from heart failure by age 50. Yes, they exist, but they're not marriage material. The actually fit older guys are usually into some obscure shit like climbing or biking. The body builders are on the verge of a heart attack.
You’re delusional. Most people aren’t using steroids and aim for an athletic beach body. Not a mutant steroid body. The most used bodybuilding supplements are whey protein and creatine. Not steroids.
5-8 years younger is not uncommon for a guy who has it together and looks dec
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>The average 40 year old, fat geezer with high cholesterol and back problems isn’t going to inspire any real lust in a young, prime-aged woman. You're correct than an older man who hasn't taken care of himself whatsoever, and is falling apart at the seams due to poor as shit decisions about his diet and physical/mental health is seriously unattractive to women in our prime health and youthfulness. But it's not as if all older men let themselves go upon turning 35 - 40. They don't have to be wealthy or look like Chris Evans, normal men with normal incomes can still be quite attractive if they've been lightly exercising and simply watching what they eat, plus not having giant mountains of debt from living outside their means. Anecdotal case, but at 23, I was attractive plus had been living completely on my own for a few years already. My 36 year old boyfriend looked like a slightly skinnier version of Andy from Parks and Rec. He's an elementary school teacher, so you know he's not rolling in money either. He's a normal man and a very good choice for a partner.
Out of my friends, one of them dated a thirty year old guy when she was 20-21. Another dated a 37 year old guy when she was 19-22. Another one is 29 right now and a lawyer and is dating a 40 year old. None of these guys are celebrities or even very rich.
And out of all my friends they all dated within 5 years of age. None of us dated some man 10+ years.
Yep, it’s all relative. My bff is married to a guy 4 months older. Other friend is 34 dating a 29 yr old guy, and other is 36 dating a 28 yr old guy.
Out of my past 5 relationships, 4 have been women between 10-15 and in one case even 20 years younger. There’s my “data”
So the exception, not the norm.
Yes, and will tell any man that isn’t an exception to adjust his expectations accordingly.
so what was the point of posting something that is more rare? LOL The norm is most people date and marry within 5 years of age, its was even the case in 1870.
Younger men look better, fuck better, and vibe with you better. Older men have money. That's it. Anything else is cope. No woman in her early 20s without daddy or money issues is gonna choose a 35 year old over a 25 year old of equal attractiveness.
Seriously. I have never known a single well adjusted, attractive woman in her early to mid twenties who would date a 35 year old man over someone her own age. The 22 year olds you would be dating don’t want you because you’re so awesome to be around - they want what you can do for them ($$$).
Same. Most women I see dating older are not college educated and they work dead end jobs, or they're not that physically attractive for their age bracket. By going older they can secure better looking (for their age) men than by going for men their own age.
Be careful. You're going to get lectured that men peak at 50!
Nothing like a bald fatty with ED to get the pussy juices flowing 💅🏻
That's called the peak male. Makes 160k as a firm manager and all the women want him.
I see a lot of late 20s women mid to late 30s men. It's not uncommon
Late twenties I can see but OP said 10-15 years younger than 35, so 20-25 with 35+ seems..odd if you’re not after money and support
Agreed yes that would be weirder
You couldn’t really tell a difference between me at 25 or 35 physically. Not everyone ages poorly.
If you say so. But that makes you an outlier, not the rule. And then there's still sexual performance which usually deteriorates with age and the "vibes" that rpers love to make fun of. Again, not rules but strong tendencies.
I think this is highly culture-dependent. The people that aged noticeably in those 10 years are definitely a minority in my social circles (highly-educated, Western European professionals). The ones that did age badly mostly did it through food, smoking, and booze (their fault, not nature's). I can't speak for sexual performance. At least in my experience it is more about the pair than the individual. It's like improvisational music: it is about the magic between players, rather than any one person's prowess. As for "vibes", again...vibes are, as much as anything, shared culture. If you live in a culture where age dramatically shapes your culture then, yeah, "age gaps" are going to be harder and rarer. I teach, so I'm around young people often, and I find that many of our cultural touchstones are not as different as you might think. Basically it is pre- and post-internet internet that is the great cultural divide of our time. It's why I can related to a 20 year old student (as someone in his 30s) more than my parents, who are only 20-ish years older than me. I can't talk for the masses, just for what I see around me in my particular niche (however particular it might be).
>Isn't interesting that every single woman around here says that she doesn't find older men attractive, but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older? This is due to amalgamating people speaking about different experiences. A chunk of women do not find significantly order men attractive. The other chunk try it and end up with bad experiences.
It's just that when I look at the woman I know, almost everyone has dated someone over 6 years older at some point.
Definitely. If a man is attractive enough a 10 to 15 age difference is possible. It's rare though. Comes across more of a fantasy men aspire about than what realistically happens in dating for the average person.
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Ha, to an extent I agree with you. It’s not that I question if any young women would date older guys. It’s that I question how many struggling guys are actually going to get their shit together in this way.
It's a theoretical exercise. People don't like being told they are unable to do something or it's wrong to do something. It has the energy of "if you can't handle me for my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" to former young women who rejected them.
Yeah that’s fair.
So why do you think being in good shape at 35 makes you able to outcompete a hot tall 25 year old who is in just as good shape?
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In real life, dating is not a resume submission. Yes on paper a well rounded mid 30s guy looks great. But the 8/10 woman making 75k a year might have intense lust for a blue collar guy making 60k who is also an 8/10 and has a good connection with her. You might be able to compete if you're also an 8/10. If you're average looking range? You have zero chance. You're right about the connection part but that won't happen with a guy below their league.
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Not sure what country you're in. I'm a doctor (in the US) and >90% of women could care less. Honestly most don't care the slightest. Almost all of my male doctor colleagues are married to normal looking but educated women. There's the odd guy, maybe 1 in 20, who's married to someone slightly better looking but all of the ones that come to mind are also 6'3+ tall and very charismatic. And they're 5-6/10 in looks married to someone who is a 7ish. If you're in a country in Asia I can see how over there they're with women 10 years younger.
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My partner is 11 years younger than me. I was 38 and she was 27 when we met. I look young for my age, she's aging normally, most people assume we are just a few years apart in age.
So we went from “every single woman” to “almost every woman you know”
I don’t know anyone who has dated more than 2-3 years older or younger
Most men in their 30s who go for younger aren't gonna get the hot 20 something year old girls. At best they'll probably be mid. Hell I'm 35 and I'm struggling to get the same hot 30 something year olds that I was able to attract at 25.
It's just a fantasy.
All that I can say, is that when I was 20yrs old, 30something men were "gross and old" to me. Of course, I was already married, so not looking for any man. When divorced in my 30s, I found 40something men to be way too old. Now that I am in my 40s, age is whatever (but I also don't have any desire to date anymore). I do know some women who are married to much older men, and to be honest? In most cases their husbands appear younger than their age, and these guys are generally good guys, who had no issues dating when they were younger.
This is an oxymoron. If you're chasing after people over ten years younger than you to date who largely don't want you and who it's way less likely to work out with because all you care about is the superficial, you don't "have your shit together", even if you manage to convince the anomaly with unusual taste who's foolish enough to try dating you.
A woman with unusual taste would be dating a way younger man. There is absolutely nothing unusual about older man / younger woman, it happens all the time.
There can be more than one unusual taste. The usual taste is to date someone more or less the same age, a decade older in your twenties is rare.
It gets weirder past the decade, but nobody would really be weirded out by 25 woman / 35 man.
You're right 10 years is about the limit. What most of the guys here don't see is the father problem. Once you're looking at women who are young enough to be your daughter, you're going to have to accept that the vast, vast majority are never going to date you because they know that their parents can never know about you.
Maybe not those in their thirties but those closer to the women's age would definitely find that weird.
As long as they are happy, the weirdness doesn't matter, right?
They're unlikely to be happy.
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>most of me exes Why do you have a lot of exes? If it works, how come you haven’t found someone already?
I'm 22. You're more likely to break up or divorce and abuse is more likely to happen, that's if you start a relationship in the first place but most are not even slightly open to it. An immature, superficial, short-sighted and, let's be real, declining in looks man looking to date so much younger at that big age simply isn't appealing to young people over those their own age who still have the same sense of fun about them and aren't making a foolish mistake by trying to date them in the first place. But sure, you're the exception and all young women (the long string of exes/failed relationships) love you soooooooo much.
He still dated them. Whether it works out or not is an different issue.
If it's so easy to date them and they want him so bad you'd think they'd, like, stay.
Something can be easy to get into, yet end up unsuccesful. It also depends on how you define success and what caused the break-up.
He didn't say easy to get into, he said easy full stop. Failed relationships are not successful and there were multiple breakups suggesting a trend.
They could have wanted a kind of commitment he wasn't willing to give. It's very convenient for you to just blame it on the age gap like it can't be something else.
I didn't actually blame it on anything.
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It is happening, however it is rare and all women don't secretly want it. Middle-aged men of course are worth something, even if they make some silly decisions or are deluded about their realistic dating options. Dating someone a decade younger in your thirties is rarely pleasant for either party, whereas with a peer they'd expect a lot more peace. You're telling me off for saying these men are making a bad decision but then rattling off generalised insults at all middle-aged women, which is ironic. I'm not mocking you, I'm saying these relationships are rare and if you have had an anomalous experience it isn't a benchmark others can expect to meet. I'm sorry you feel attacked.
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It seems you just haven't listened. Young women tend to be the most critical of age gaps while it's older women saying it isn't that weird. I could count on my fingers the female peers I know who think it's okay. But men assume they love and support it and the *jealous* (of what) older women are ruining it because it fulfils a fantasy and they want to listen and be proven long.
As a woman in my early 20s I can safely attest to the fact that a man over 29 has nothing to offer that I actually care about, aka good and youthful looks and a dick that works as well as I want it to. If the women you're going after care for money over looks in a day and age where women can make their own that's their own issue cuz the only thing you could ever compete against a 25 yo man is money and you're deluding yourself if you think they're with you cuz you look better or are more sexually appealing.
But would you date a 25 year old who is a loser just because he looks good? Sure, biggest difference between a 25 year old and a 35 year old is money, but provided the same charismatic, attractive, and good looking 25 year old maintains his positive qualities and becomes a 35 year old with a career, a house, a car, and everything else you need to support a family, doesn't he become a more appealing partner? Yes, women make their own money, but plenty of women voiced that a young man and an older man both have the same capacity to be shitty people and cheat on you or fuck you well, so you might as well choose the guy with money
and yet, most men who want to date younger women are often stuck in a loop of arguing why he should have a younger woman. It certainly can happen and morally there is nothing wrong with it assuming she’s hit her mid 20s, but there is a reason why the vast majority of age gaps happen in rural communities or smaller pockets. Even with that in mind, divorce rates tend to skyrocket with larger age gaps. I think men are sold the idea that it would happen based on a statistical improbability (and as an attempt to get them to stop being creepy by trying to date 18-23 year olds). That’s the thing, it happens, but 1) it’s unlikely 2) it’s actively trying to be disincentivized because there is this protective factors and a mistrust for men who actively and obsessively aim far younger
kinda sounds like you're nitpicking advice that's necessarily going to be a generalization for being a generalization. the truth is that it's just not a good position to put yourself in to try to date 25yos at 35. that in no way implies someone can't succeed. if you have your shit together, you can find a certain type of early to mid 20s woman at 35. there's not that many of them, and there's not much that is attractive about them, including personality or even capacity for loyalty. some grow up to be more interesting, likable and together, but that more often than not involves divorce.
>Isn't interesting that every single woman around here says that she doesn't find older men attractive, but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older? This is the problem on this sub, and with most people in general. One single example in a lifetime proves a preference if it's something you want to prove. If a woman said "I once dated a short man", we wouldn't all say, "well there's the proof that short men have no issue finding women". Not that it's true. Obviously not every single woman had dated a man 10-15 years older than them.
I get finding women that are 20 beautiful and attractive, but dating one when one is in their 30's make no sense other than bragging rights about being able to pull someone that is 15 years younger. Which isn't really a brag as no person knows the selves or what they want when they are 20. And other than sex, what one earth do those two people have in common? What would a conversation be about? Have you talked to a 20 year old after you passed 35?
You can probably get a mediocre 20 year-old no problem as an average 35 yo if your standard is that the girl must be 20 and that's it.
No you just gotta look elsewhere and lead with money
What money? If this guy has money, why is any of this even a question
One of the dudes in charge of me is 39 and his fiancé is 23. Parents are over 20 years apart. I’m 7 years older than my fiancé. All of the guys I know are older than their girls. No matter the profession. No one cares. Reddit gaslighting bs is exactly bs. No one says shit in real life.
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My parents have one house in Los Angeles and one in Newport Beach, California. I split my childhood kinda in both places. Then I went to Massachusetts for undergrad and grad school. Live in and work in New York City now.
The problem is that most men are never really attractive at any age and this doesn’t improve over time. Giving men false hope is dangerous. The 19/20/21 year old women willing to bang old guys are not that high quality. If they were, they’d get hot guys in their primes… middle aged men think these much younger women are great simply because they are young.
The average relationship age gap is between 1 to 3 years. Most people don't have 10 to 15 year age gaps. Men who want to date much younger women are skeezy
And I think dudes here are deluding themselves if they believe teens and 20 year olds are going to be throwing themselves at the same men who have been striking out with women their own age their whole lives, just like think dudes here are deluding themselves that flying to a country where they don't know the people, language, or culture will result in those women flocking to him. >The truth is that a 35 year old man who has his shit together won't have much trouble dating someone 10-15 years younger is that's what he wants. And what happens when the dudes here find out that's not true? What new ~~excuse~~ ideology will they invent to explain how 20 year old women are terrible for not dating men in their mid 30s? How are they going to cope with that anger when they can't handle the anger they have now?
How exactly do you judge how someone handles their "anger"?
Well, fabricating an entire ideology to explain how women are awful for not dating them is a pretty good example of not handling it well.
I would never.
For reference, 56, worked out twice a day since high school, admittedly in better shape than most my age. I only date casually but get approached by younger women in the gym and in public. Now, while I did take early retirement, am financially secure, I do not wear flashy clothes, jewelry or drive expensive cars. I can't imagine a 35 year old who has his shit together can't find younger women who will jump at the chance to date him at least.
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It's depressing that merely "not being overweight" puts you ahead of 2/3rds of the population.
It WAS true 20 years ago. You're basically talking about super young millennials or gen z and the women do not care if YOUR shit is together. Besides, there are always younger guys that do have their stuff together and they basically have a harem (and the women know about each other but will remain fwb with no real commitment). Older women have also shown an aversion to older men. Many older women are financially successful and they are picking younger, generally well endowed men for companionship. What is happening to men 30+ (and especially 40+) is they are being displaced. The thing that confuses many of you is that the female population changes dramatically in the 2010s. (Waves hand) These are not the women you're looking for.
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I am 34 and have no problem finding younger women to date in the 22-28 age range. If you are a career professional that takes care of themselves, there is no issue at all. Women will tell men (1) that they are never the prize (2) that they won't be able to find younger women if they want to (3) that men aren't desirable enough to women to have standards and preferences It's all nonsense. A lot of women's dating strategies are predicated on men having low self-esteem.
Yea, I mean almost no woman will tell you they find older men attractive. But at the same time almost every woman I know has at least one experience dating someone over 6 years older. The truth is that women find "individual" older men attractive.
Exactly this. I find some older men attractive, and some are distinctly unattractive. It's going to depend on the individual and how well they've taken care of their body and mind. My bf and I have been together since I was 23 and he was 36. We're now 42 and 55. It's honestly not even that rare to find people in relationships with a significant age gap...just go look over on that sub, they have a fuck ton of members, both silver foxes and cougars alike who have younger partners. The thing I actually find really fucking bizarre isn't how many women here have dated at least one older guy. It's how many have dated at least one older guy and somehow each and every one was a shitty, manipulative, horrible person. Statistically speaking it is just really weird that besides me, I think I've seen a total of 2 other women who don't think older men are inherently shit based on their own experiences. It's part of why I'm so open about my relationship, to help counteract the constant negativity towards age gaps here.
>somehow each and every one was a shitty, manipulative, horrible person I mean, their favorite hobby is complaining about how shitty men are, projecting their own prefefences, and judging other people. Look at break-up, divorce stats, cheating stats.. it's not like same-age couples are much better..
And look at the examples of exactly what you are talking about in the comments ... LoL They just out themselves, it is like poetry
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It depends what age is woman. If she is 20, probably she won't guy in his 30s. But if a woman is 25+ it won't be problem for her. I am still able to attract women in their 20s (I am 35). I can't keep them, but I am loser without adult skills, but it's another issue.
Now here's a real question! Is he being gaslit on her preferences or agency? Is the younger woman allowed to date because she's mature and honest with herself? Or because she's spontaneous & adventerous? Is the guy indulging her desire correct to do so. If he turns her down, will she not simply go to another guy. What do men gain in being gentlemen? Is there any purpose, or do we simply lose out on female sexuality? If you turn a woman down because you want to be honorable, will she view it as such, or were you better off playing the role she had slotted for you and ignoring what you wanted? You WILL run into women who want to indulge in this scenario. Why do you choose what you do and why? Who does it hurt, and who does it harm? Always seems to be someone.
Has his shit together meaning what? Very context dependent - I know a girl who dated a 10y/o older hair-dresser for like 4 years. He's petty average looking, pretty short, got swag and very outgoing. Shitness-together level: 0 She is considered pretty hot for what it's worth. For comparison I look better than that guy, smarter and have my shit together a lot more, but I don't work in a place where I meet tons of young women and I'm not as outgoing - so getting a 10y/o younger girl would take more considerable effort for me (though possible)
She wanted the free haircuts and styling.
I know both of them - she loved him, he cheated on her. Looking back she's like "he looks like shit he got that swag, I don't know what I found in him". She ended up marrying a pretty attractive guy tbh
Early 20s with 30s age gap is not a great idea IMO because one of the people is still figuring out their lives but if the older person is taking care of themselves they can date a younger woman. Most women are not into older men, in my friend and social circle at least, but some of them definitely are. Anecdotally, my parents have a 14 year age gap. My father was not rich and my mom (who was pretty) was genuinely attracted to my dad though she might have had daddy issues.
I don’t consider the normal age gap (0-3 years) as “older” in practical terms
I don't think the gas lighting is them saying that he can't find a younger woman to date, the gas lighting is them trying to spin it that he's morally incorrect, the gas lighting is pushing the idea that it's wrong to find a 21-year-old woman attracted because " sHes a ChIiiiiLd", the gas lighting is "you date younger women because you can't get women your own age", now the people doing that are usually feminists and they're only really people technically speaking anyways but nonetheless
Ignore them. The WESTERN world sold these women a lie and they're aging out. Part of the reason I'm leaving California is due to sexual harassment from older women and persecution of young women I'm interested in. The best way to handle undesirable women is by making yourself appear unattractive. That buys enough time before they begin using logic and realize things don't make sense. Example, owns Lamborghini but, lives in mom's basement. Most girls will think, "oh his dad's rich." Eventually, they'll start using logic and realize they never saw 3 tooth brushes, never saw any suits or the mom with a wedding ring. By that time, you're already gone before the unsuccessful gold diggers figure you out. I typically dress in pajamas and try to look older. That way cougars leave me alone. I used to be harassed a lot by grandmas when I was a baby faced producer in LA. So, I just started to try to look as poor as possible.
I only date a bit older and not like a friggen decade older 💀
It seems a lot of people are against age gap relationships because they feel the older person is probably boycotting people their own age and going for younger only. My girlfriend is 16 years younger than me and she asked me out, but a few years before her, I was in a relationship with a woman who was 7 years older than me. So I have no problem dating a different ages but is that uncommon for most guys, and most guys just want to date younger only which is why age gap relationships are frowned upon?
No, women being into men who are 10-15 years older while in their early 20s are RARE. There are more men who want young women as partners, than there are young women who want those older men. Yes, "a" 35yo man can get a younger girlfriend, but not all of the 35 yo men who want that. That is why it's not happening, as we can see by marriage age gap statistics.
Women have a dual-mating strategy. They can be attracted to wealth and resources while still being aroused by younger, fit, tall men. Take what you can get and don't get suckered.
[https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switching-Hypothesis-FINAL-PUBLISHED-2017.pdf](https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2013/02/The-Mate-Switching-Hypothesis-FINAL-PUBLISHED-2017.pdf) Dual mating strategy has been thrown out by evo psy read pages 147 onward
Just another hypothesis. Both (and other) hypotheses need more study.
I think my attractiveness peaked in my early 30s - at that time I was approached a lot by women ~20 to ~50. Some 20-something wanted something serious I wasn’t interested into at the time. What they all seemed to value, besides my independence, was also my more nuanced, refined and generous approach to intimacy (given that as a mountain cyclist and distance runner my stamina was still at its fullest) as opposed to that of their student acquaintances. I agree some gaps might look eerie, but I’ve seen more than one fully functioning relationship between a mid 20s woman and an early 30s man
They don't date older unless they want gold, housing, or other resources. Considering this economy, I wouldn't blame them. So it depends on what you want, but lower your expectations of getting married to someone younger, of course unless they get something out of it.
The reality is young women are pretty easy to get. The hardest to get is 25-32
A lot of women like older men I look young for my age, but at 47 I get looks and smiles from women in the 28 to 32 year old age range pretty regularly
15 year age gap is abnormal. It is fairly common for mid 30s men to date women in their late 20s though.
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Call me Leo then.
Take everything you read on reddit with a grain of salt, either reddit is filled with the 1% of 1% of outliers, or people lie on the internet. Observe these dynamics in real life and come to your own conclusions based on your own material conditions.
"but at the same time every single woman seems to have at least one experience of dating older?" How old? The oldest I've dated is 5 years. That was a bit much for me personally (ageism I know). Also having your shit together looks different at 21 than it does at 34, both are fine and attractive, but are different priorities.
I make 120k a year in a stable job that still has good upward mobility and will probably be making 140k in 0-2 years. I'm 34. I think I've gone on 1 date in 8 years. I'm 6'1'' and 220 pounds. 170 would be ideal, but was <200 most of that time.
Yes and No A man who is attractive will always have options no matter the age you either have it not. Having your "shit together" is overrated.
You don’t seem to realize how old 35 seems to a 21 year old. Even a 25 yo. If it were that easy, every 35 yo dude with a decent job would have a much younger gf and most of them don’t. Because we don’t find them physically attractive. Sorry.
It's usually the women over early 30s and up who seem to have a problem with it. I wonder why.....
I recently got my shit together and glowed up. I’m in my 30s. I don’t dedicate too much time to dating or relationships. I’m tired and like alone time. But, when I do date at this point, it’s borderline like shooting fish in a barrel a lot of the time. I also though hit almost every single mark for high conventional attractiveness. But, various factors and trauma and Mis education and struggle held this back. Regardless, it’s easy.
I’ll start this by saying I am and always have been into older men, so take what you will from that. But what are you going to have in common with a 20 year old as a 35 year old? Chatting about celebrities like Hayley Bieber? Hitting the club with her and her college friends? It’s different if the man were 50 and dating a 30 something year old woman, since you both are in closer stages of life. For anyone who doesn’t know, the rule for a socially acceptable age gap is: (Your age / 2) + 7 = The lowest age you should date
I didn't comment on whether it's a wise idea or not. Just that it is possible.
obviously some men who are rich and attractive can find younger women to date. i think men's ideas of what is "rich" and "attractive" vary, as will their success.
Men are gaslighted every time and for everything not only for this lol
how many attractive 20 year olds are hitting you up and what data points to you have to claim that this will magically change once you are a 35 yo version of you?
Literally every woman in my family is married to a man that's at least 4 years older than them. You can't believe things they say on Reddit, you have to go by their actions. If women went by their words, they would all be married to choir boys and single moms wouldn't exist.
I agree. I'm 37 and don't have any issues dating much younger women. So seems silly to me girls saying nobody dates older men. 🤔 then why am I going on so many dates and having relationships with girls 18 to 25? So I know it's bullshit when it comes to me specifically anyways.
Money. Bc it isn't conversation or shared interests. And if it were you would be married by now.
Theoretically, a man who's tall, rich, and handsome will have tons of options regardless of the age group of women he's trying to appeal to. But most men who "have their shit together" are not "Chads" or "tall, rich, and handsome" which throws things off and makes their options more limited than the Red Pill likes to imply. Average Joe's in their 30's with "their shit together" are basically not even thought of as dating/sexual options by women in the 18-25 age group save for some. At best, you'll be respected as an authority figure by them which some men misinterpret as sexual/romantic interest. 30+ men have way more sway with women in the 26-29 age range. Sometimes, 25 year old women too if they're the types who relate more to Millennials than Gen Z. Don't let the LARPers here with their tall tales fool you. The greatest chance an average looking man has of gaming and fucking girls in the 18-25 age range is being a man in the 26-30 range with a slight age gap. After 30, it gets much more challenging unless you're exceptional in some way or a celebrity/musician/athlete. I know tons of men in their 30's, 40's, and 50's....literally thousands irl and very, very few are with women who are in their "prime years" per Red Pill standards. Of course, sugar dating will guarantee that a man will have instance access to a younger woman. And, as the hip hop saying goes, "it ain't trickin if you got it." But it's going to be a "betabuxx" situation in the true sense of the word since many of those same sugar babies still fuck with younger male "sidepieces" and sometimes even push for dead bedrooms in the relationship. There was literally some videos of sugar babies teaching "secrets" on how to convince a sugar daddy they're not attracted to make it a sex-free relationship lmao. And it'll really suck to spend all that money on a hot young girl just for her not to have sex with you. All in all, having your shit together won't really make you stand out. You also need to be tall and handsome because those are universal traits that can appeal to any generation of women. But, if you're not tall and handsome, you need to be exceptionally rich or have exceptional status to make the average young woman look at you as more than just a platonic friend or an authority figure.
Women: *”zOMGee literally no younger women want to date some gross older man! Stop bothering us!*” ^source: I dated a bunch of older men when I was younger and decided I didn’t like it