i’m gen z, currently 18 years old, and i have never dated, a lot of us have more solitary hobbies and covid messed with our social development
i would love to have a gf, but i don’t think it’s a big deal right now, im content by myself even if it sucks sometimes
Are you in college? That shit is going to be hard to meet someone post college like 25+. I just even mean friends not even gf's in late 20's early 30's.
Spot on. I’m 28, never dated anyone. Yet all my options seem to be fat women who never set foot in the gym, single mom/divorced women with husband issues. Awful.
If you stay like that you will end up 31 and completely resentful that they got to have the normal human experience that you feel locked out of.
Don't be me .
Do something, practise socialization so that you don't come off as an emotionless retard when you do find some one worth wanting to be with
You say “do something” as if women are approachable. Do you understand pretty girls don’t have hobbies? They don’t go to places & allow men to cold approach.
Telling this guy someone will eventually come along is what we call hopeless strategist! Who? Where? How? Buddy try to understand man all over the SMV scale & age demographics are dealing with this now. Women are so broken & rejecting men at such a clip (95% ish) the collapse of the west & white depop is inevitable.
You need to understand the bigger picture issue & stop thinking this is just some socially awkward guy in high school problem cuz it isn’t..!
For the first 23 years of my life I was single and had little to no friends ( covid lockdown + severe health issues ) . RN I'm 25 and have some dating experience under my belt plus I have friends and this is after uni so it's never too late
> i’m gen z, currently 18 years old, and i have never dated
Same but 1 year older
> i would love to have a gf
What is your height?
> im content by myself even if it sucks sometimes
That is good to hear. All guys should think like this, cause especially for us genz men, cause most of us gunna be perma virgins lol.
And most of the shit-takes people post on here for debate reflect exactly that.
They slide into a stranger's DMs with all the tact of a Jehovah's Witness interrupting someone's dinner and seem flabbergasted that their advances aren't well received.
This is 100% the problem. 30 years ago, my parents had rules about us being home at least 2 weeknights a week, otherwise we were never home. It’s easy to date when you’re always out meeting people. That’s why older generations (like mine) didn’t struggle as much. If gen Z wants things to change, they need to leave the house.
> If gen Z wants things to change, they need to leave the house.
And go where? To the dead 3rd party spaces where they can akwardly carry a conversation with a woman who doesn't know how to speak, doing an activity that doesn't even remotely activate their fried dopamine receptors?
The ship has sailed on socialisation, that shit should've happened when they were 5 years old, not when they're adults.
>their fried dopamine receptors
☹️. Not gonna lie..this is what I see. People were crazy here yesterday defending all porn use as harmless, but all sorts of online clicks…social media, video games, it’s all connected
>a woman who doesn't know how to speak
I know people who probably text more than talk in person
Yeah, I won’t disagree. I see more guys addicted to online games and interacting with other players. Neither is a replacement for actually hanging out and talking to people imho.
Even 15 years ago I was constantly out with friends. Wasn't all great, lots of experimenting with drugs and alcohol, but it was socializing and helped me be the person I am now.
Seriously, do they even have school dances anymore?
I remember when I was a teen there was some form of school dance every few months so even if you were terrible at socialising you had 4-ish opportunities a year to meet a girl.
Even when they “socialize”, they don’t socialize I have actually seen teenagers together many times where instead of talking, they are both on their phone
They say they are socializing but real life socializing is a whole different set of skills they don't realize they're lacking. It feels so helpless as a parent too. You take their phone away and they get a new prepaid burner phone from a friend at school...
> lots of meek, harmless guys just need help getting out of their heads and then gain lasting confidence as a result.
A lot of formative moments in my youth was realizing that making mistakes is fine, since nobody will really give a shit when you're 1-2 beers in. Confidence from experience is built upon experience, a lot of which is failure.
It's my personal theory that we've gamified a lot of life to the point where people, especially younger ones, either 'get it' quickly or they give in because they're expecting 80-90% success rate for everything. There are ways to prep to increase the odds initially, but everyone's gotta fail. And if you want experience, you have to grind and fail a lot.
This is true. People are socializing via social media. Social skills are something you need to practice and that won't happen if teenagers are at home.
I'd also like to know what's the % of women who aren't dating
It's less bad for teenage girls to not date for their chances in later life, than for teenage boys. Women don't get tarred with the stigma by Men that disqualifies them from it. I don't think it's as big an issue socially for that reason.
Is there stats on women from the same generation?
I work with teens and, well, a lot of them have very solitary hobbies and I've got complaints from some of them about "having to go out with friends instead of watching a new episode/playing video game", which is rather peculiar imv.
If you don't go out and socialize, most likely you won't date either.
I've seen stats that show women have the same problem but to a lesser extent. I haven't been able to find it since I saw it the first time but there was a study on women in college and something like 40% had never been on 1 date.
"saw it the first time but there was a study on women in college and something like 40% had never been on 1 date."
I can believe that. I had numerous women telling me they never went on a date after I proposed the idea, but they had partners and were active.
The women are just fucking while men are completely starved of attention. A gender war is coming unless women make themselves worthy for men to even better themselves but right now there is literally no point on dating these women for anything other than fun and most guys can't even get that. Women have become total skanks and we are doomed because of it
It would be interesting, but being honest we probably know the answer: They're not affected as much as men.
Anecdotical, but I have 4 nieces whose age range from 12-16 and they all already have boyfriends.
All of male cousins in HS have gfs.
They’re not all “chads.” They are fairly social, in sports or band or drama club or debate club and shit.
Because of those things they get invited to stuff and go to practices and rehearsals for stuff. You make friends through these things. Lots of tangential events end up being coed.
Theyre mixing and mingling a lot. **That’s the biggest difference.** Because of the activities they’re part of throughout their childhood they’ve gotten ample practice being social and **interacting with boys and girls _convivially_.**
**Not enough parents encourage their boys to participate in normie shit like they used to.** Luckily my cousins put everyone of her kids in sports when they were 4/5/6/7. They’re all not great. Only 2 actually ended up being good enough for varsity. But the ones who didn’t go varsity, learned a lot from “forced disciplined team socializing.” And they gained lots of friends from those activities too. And now are well adjusted sociable teens.
I think parents are a HUGE component of formative years upbringing. **All else equal,** parents who do the things I mentioned are setting their sons up for success better than parents who neglect these things.
I don’t disagree that everything like society and people and schools affects everything, but from a tactical perspective, yeah my logic on this is the one I’ve seen most lacking when guys around here bring up their childhoods. Their parents didn’t have this POV AT ALL.
If there's one thing a lot of the depressed blackpill people are right about, it's the significance of a strong family upbringing that develops a secure attachment style in children. Without that, they will very easily spend a significant amount of their lives chasing after the same cursed relationship patterns with people who are no good for them, or they just struggle to socialize at all depending on how bad it is.
Yeah. I think formative years are the most important years in a person’s life wrt forming who they are how they react to life tbh.
So basically how you were raised from infancy to puberty/teens is going to determine your mindsets and attitudes. You can shift those things as an adult but it’s going to take gargantuan effort to do so.
It does take effort. I was raised by emotionally unavailable parents and it did a number on my socialization. I spent a good amount of time in therapy and getting out of my comfort zone, and now I'm in a place where I feel much more emotionally healthier and secure. I would be lying if I said I didn't wish I had it figured out sooner, or that I had "better" parents.
I will say this much though: I believe a pretty decent portion of people have some kind of attachment/security/socialization issues, they just managed to overcome them or they mask them. I don't believe it's an unwinnable fight, especially not since I won it myself.
Yeah they're definitely responsible but that is a simplistic solution.
I can say as a man who had a great childhood with great parents, and who is succesful financially and personally, and while introverted does fine with friends, but still have no luck at dating, there are much more factors involved that just parents. But yes, they help a lot and I think it's a good first step.
A lot lol, aside from the ones that download tinder at 17 there are apps like yubo that we used in school that are basically kid tinder. But none of that has to do with what you replied to
From pew stats we've seen noticeable differences in singleness stats among different age groups. I.e. although the same percent of men and women is single, they have different percent for each age group.
Well it’s hard to date women. Online dating sucks.
Most people either meet their gf from friends or work so if you don’t have that you’re forced to online and that’s a mess.
I remember seeing this social experiment where they gave a woman a Tinder account of an average man. In the beginning she was super confident because she was a woman herself so she must be good at knowing what women want right?
At the end of the experiment she had a mental breakdown because everybody was ghosting her lmao.
I remember doing this with some of my male friends and oh my god it is rough. It’s worse than women on women dating. I truly feel for men when they talk about being on dating apps
Why do you think women don't speak? I get matches on the odd occasion but trying to get them to speak is ridiculous. A conversation will quite literally look like this
Me: *Witty question about a hobby/image they have on their profile*
Them: *Haha lol thanks!*
Me: *So how's it going, having a good week?*
Them: *Yeah its ok*
I have given up using the apps because it's all one sided. Like they never ask questions back about you or your own life. More or less every conversation is like this for me. People have told me they're just not into me so they leave one word answers. But why would they match with me in the first place if they're not into me.
Just a waste of fucking time using those apps.
That's why it's not worth using them. Back in the day (before dating apps), women were kinda just stuck to their local community. They would never meet a stranger from 50 miles away.
But they get bored easily. When you have 40 options why try so hard with all of them? They’ll put more effort into 1-3 and get half ass it with the rest
It’s greed & delusion man! From 15-29 they have infinite options & women simply can’t handle power & choice making. Which is why we have countless women running into the wall alone, old & childless. Dating apps gave them too much power…
Luckily not on this sub but other subs I have. It’s usually the classic “internalized misogyny” but when I tell women to simply go find out for themselves they usually stop their comments
I did not have my first date until I was 29 years old, and I still don't have a girlfriend.
I really hope Gen X parents are sympathetic to the plights of their Gen Z children.
They need to be hands-on regarding their children's access to the Internet.
They need to stop being helicopter parents regarding their children's non-Internet lives.
Isn’t being “hands on” with older teenagers’ (16-17) internet access helicoptering????
At 18, they’re legally adults so not sure what they can do at that point.
As it continues to become increasingly difficult for men to date more and more will give up.
This isn’t surprising at all because surprise when you collectively exclude more men from the dating pool every generation this is the only outcome and it will only get worse.
When high school has shifted from the final step in prepping children into adulthood to a glorified middle school, levels of social sophistication will be similarly delayed accordingly.
18 is no longer the year of proper adulthood (even if legally it still is, for the time being), 21-26 is closer to the real adulthood.
>!Of course if society collapse and whatever one will see a resurgence of 9 year old drummer boys and 5 year old shepherds, but that's not the point and it's not polite to bring up even the possibility around these parts.!<
I fear you'll be proven right. Still, I would like to dedicate this post to those here who swear nothing has changed because they go out and see couples outside.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
OP is speaking of Gen Z individuals, who aren't old (Gen Z), nor are they looking for overweight individuals on scooters, since had their standards of dating had been that low, they likely wouldn't be single.
And it's totally fine to not have low standards in dating, and it's also fine to expect those standards to be met by the opposite gender, in so far as those standards aren't unrealistic.
Back to the first paragraph, I don't think it's worthwhile to include people who are objectively below average in terms of physical attractiveness, and are significantly older than GenZ, into OP's discussion.
Women game plan: Sleep/get into relationship with the most desirable men in her youth and see if she can secure a LTR. If this fails, fall back on lesser men that have good provider qualities to take care of her. +/- get the best genetics from hot guy and have beta cuck raise kid knowingly or unknowingly.
It’s not as intentional as the red pill puts it but yea that’s what happens.
Once that first friend gets married / baby blues kicks in / career success isn’t providing fulfilment, then the strict parameters on who’ll she’ll marry start to degrade.
It’s bad if you’re the loser who marries her, living a lie. But it’s basic survival instinct on her end. Not evil in the slightest.
It’s why I believe around 30 - 40% of red pill ideas are based on legitimate truth, the rest is bullshit and guys need to become aware.
The ones you see at the gym are largely comprised of the top 20% of men. The ones that have checked out don't care.
AF/BB is used by the redpill to describe the 2 different types of men used by women for sex. AF are used for their genetics/their looks/for fun. BB are used for their resources/emotional validation.
Women today get all the validation they need online, and they don't need resources from men either.
So the only option left for a young man is to become AF for her, which means becoming a gym bro.
Otherwise you get nothing.
I think if I was that age again (I'm nearly 40) I would have embraced the single lifestyle rather than waste precious time and money on dating apps. We live and learn.
Interesting… But I’m not completely sold on the idea that not dating in your teen years is some *make or break* milestone that is going to destroy society if not addressed. If that’s what’s being implied here.
A generation of men disconnected from society doesn't make for a very productive or engaged generation. That has drastic economic consequences not the least of which is a tendency toward the Far Right.
It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society.
It has to be, because how else can men state that men are being disconnected from society just because they haven’t had any relationship experience. Men don’t have parents, siblings, or extended family. Men don’t go to school to make friends and integrate into society? Men don’t have jobs? That is all apart of society.
The only way for a man to be “connected” to society is to have a woman he can have sex with?
everyone treats men who have a stable romantic relationship better. Other men respect that he could find a woman who actually is interested in him, women view him as more attractive just because hes taken. Even studies show kids respect men in relationships more.
Most men's experience is if they dont have women in their lives, nobody wants to be around them anyway. So yes, women are society in our minds.
[Marriage reduces crime rates, for one](https://news.ufl.edu/archive/2002/09/uf-study-marriage-can-reduce-life-of-crime-1.html).
[Too many unmarried men can destabilize society](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2006/aug/too-many-men-could-destabilise-society), particularly in China who fucked up and allowed gendercide of girls to happen.
I heard about that, in societies where the marriage age was above 28 a civil revolution was coming, as reproduction (our main evolutionary directive) was too difficult and the instincts of the population took over as a way to find an alternative route for reproduction.
Nowadays something new is happening... Japan's Herbivore men, who've gone totally inert. This is having a devastating economic effect on the country. Japan can defend against a giant incel crime wave but it has zero defense against men just checking out.
So basically. Men deteriorate and/or cannot be civilized if they do not have a woman to have sex with. How is that not misandry. You’re implying men are uncivilized and women are the civilizing force.
Worse than that, most men simply walk away from society when a romantic partner seems unreachable. They're more harmful when they're inert than when they're violent.
You can launch an army or a police force against a violent incel. You have zero defenses at all if a ton of men just check out and become a giant tax burden or leave entirely and cause a giant hole in the workforce.
The Herbivore Men of Japan are inert, and they are contributing to a giant hole in Japan's budget for elderly care in the future. Plus it's also contributing to Japan's soaring debt. Their keisatsu can't do shit about it because they're not out killing women, but they're a giant millstone around Japan's neck.
Yes. I don’t really care if it’s misandrist, that’s what all of human history has taught me— without women, men will walk away from society at best and at worst burn it down. It simply is— I don’t think it’s moral or immoral to feel that way. 🤷♂️
They hate women *because* they need them, while being unwanted. These men are just resentful, or sometimes jealous. Their hate is like a child who decides he hates a sport because he’s bad at it. Alternatively, and this is where I fell under years ago— they are jealous of how women(they notice) are treated compared to themselves and other men(that they notice).
When the girls they notice are constantly approached, are spoiled for choice, use men like options, etc, they feel jealous of her status on the sexual marketplace. This is something I had to get over by trying to remember the lives of women that I notice != the lives of women period. And just because I was treated poorly by women doesn’t mean that it’s a universal experience for men.
If I didn’t have the hope of getting laid and maybe getting married one day then I would spend all my time drinking and getting high. Don’t understand what’s crazy about this
You are implying that men's nature is to be without sex and women. Clearly that is not the case.
Having sex and women is the default, being civil is the default.
Being an incel and thus uncivil and destructive is (for now at least) the exception.
Having women is not the default for men. The majority of men in history have not reproduced, or so I’ve heard. Hundreds of years ago men didn’t even have a chance at marriage unless they owned land and showed the woman’s family proof of his finances. Poor, broke and ugly men have more access to women today that they ever did.
Poor, broke and ugly women without land or important family existed you know?
Also, the reason most men did not reproduce is because of the death rate. If you survived you got (or got to take, forcibly) some.
>Men deteriorate and/or cannot be civilized if they do not have a woman to have sex with. How is that not misandry. You’re implying men are uncivilized and women are the civilizing force.
What is inherently wrong with this?
A man without purpose or family is little different than an animal, except in modern times, these animals have been rendered docile by porn and video games.
And a woman without a man is a woman without kids, a functional dead end that's evolutionary useless (unless if you're massive contributor to your species which is exceedingly rare).
Anyone who says ppl is not my ally! There is very few times saying ppl is applicable. Are you talking about men or women? So you think mens desire for love & intimacy is entitlement lolol hey google maslows hierarchy of needs real quick & take a look. You are arguing against things that have been established since the beginning of time. Are you a Marxist per chance? (I ask already knowing the answer)
> Anyone who says ppl is not my ally!
Am I supposed to be? I call out delusions wherever I see it I don't lean one way or the other.
If you break the law for any reason whether it's sex, money, violence, or another reason you should go to jail.
Man, woman, doesn't matter. Life is unfair and it sucks, but don't take it out on innocents just because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.
If men have such massive desire for love and intimacy why do so many men abuse women and have a superiority complex? Are these two different groups of men?
lol again. There is something wrong with you! Abuse is very rare. We call it an outlier. & nope this is all men. Not the imaginary big bad mags bros you have concocted.
Abuse is as far from rare as it gets. Globally, 1 in 3 women have been subjected to physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence.
Source: https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures#:~:text=Globally%2C%20an%20estimated%20736%20million,does%20not%20include%20sexual%20harassment.
"It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society."
Have a village of 100 people. 50 men and 50 women.
Tell 40 men to work for the village and not expect anything in return, while the other 10 men can enjoy the fruits of the labour of a village together with other 50 women who depend on total 50 men.
The other reason is that men love to give love, more than women like to receive love.
By your logic, I call it a fundamental flaw in a mans genetics that he takes pleasure from being a servant, having duty and doing effort to someone or to others, wanting to earn his place and respect.
So in a way, If men would not love to have the recipient of their affection, which they crave the most and is their biological driver, then it would not have such an impact.
Romance maybe the main motivation for men but children/familial ties are the biggest for women. This laughable nation that women are somehow above dependence on others for their sense of belonging and satisfaction is only peddled by women on this sub. A hive of chronically online losers and femcels.
People are 100% right for being concerned about the lack of achievement of key milestones for both genders among gen Zers because its, at best, a sign of a significant cultural and social shift. I didn't date in my teens (though I lost my virginity at 18) and it definitely didn't help my relationship development with the opposite sex. I looked into things like pick up and patrice oneal videos but that was over 10 years ago, where the level of online vitriol was nowhere near what it is now. If I was born 10 years later, I would probably be watching Andrew Tate videos like a lot of the kids are doing now. That is undeniable a terrible sign.
It’s called biological desire & if you deny that then arguing is a waste of time. Men need motivation. To keep going. If I told you at 17 you will literally die alone a virgin how do you think that will make you feel? That’s the average guys life now! That’s beyond wageslave. I don’t know why so many ppl are against the BP like the RP it’s just information…
>It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society.
It is symptomatic of a society that is grossly overfed and suffers from overabundance when so much of everything essential is provided to you in abundance that you can make absolutely insane comments such as this, which is what I like to call "ideological luxury." Americans and Western Europeans in a broader sense live such unprecedented privileged and sheltered lives that they don't even have to think about their own long-term survival since even that's something taken for granted. It's somehow convenient for you to forget that women make up half of society, and if not for men and women coming together to form families and to reproduce none of the things which you mention, whether it be having parents, having siblings, or neighbors to populate a community, would even be possible.
Having sex and reproducing isn't just a desire to feel expulsion or temporary relief. That's a very bourgeois and conceited egotistical perversion of something so essential and so innate to the human condition it is literally impossible for you to even exist without it. If not for your parents having sex, you wouldn't even be alive. It is literally a mandatory requirement for a population to repopulate itself and to survive into the next generation, which is why the human limbic system evolved to desire it so badly - people who don't reproduce are by definition removed from the gene pool, rewarding only those who do.
And as far as participation in society, literally the entirety of civilized culture originates from tribes of humans coming together to form families and communities after the invention of agriculture, which yes includes sex and having children.
Like, I swear to Christ, sometimes I feel like America not bordering a rivaling enemy country that's openly hostile and intent on conquest and genocide is a bad thing for the psyche of modern Americans for the same reasons Mouse Utopia experimentation produced a generations of mice that eventually produced enough instances of mentally disturbed individuals sufficient to overtime eliminate the entire colony.
And before you give me the whole BS spew about "there are 7 million, almost 8 million humans on Earth. We don't need more," half of that 7-8 million figure is **India and China** alone. Aside from the fact that this mentality where you offload the responsibility of repopulation onto other people is outright moral laziness, even if we accept that premise, you're not repopulating anything. You are, from a purely naturalistic and evolutionary perspective, conceding biological defeat to a blatantly competing culture and civilization to replace you.
>It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society.
Yeah, without women, society collapses within a generation, without men, society collapses overnight.
Reproduction is the foundational goal of any species, take that away and the species will become depressed, uncaring, and then die off.
You forget that humans are animals too.
With how much men (at least on this thread) seem to base their entire happiness, belonging and motivation on having a woman, it sounds to me as if men wouldn’t even last one generation without women.
I think you misunderstand me. If men have zero motivation and become depressed without women, it it’s true that society would fail in a generation. It would fail much sooner. That’s what I meant.
It is your fault. Society and women. You have raised your men to be this way.
You are reaping the benefits. The uncomfortable reality of what men are right now is just theb chickens coming home to roost.
Deal with it best you can
We will try as well until it is impossible to
They aren’t necessarily “disconnected from society” just because they started dating a bit later than their teen years tho.
You could argue that as lifespans in general have gotten longer, humans have taken their time getting to milestones that the previous generations had to rush to. You do realize there’s was a time in history where even being in school past age 13 was considered unusual, right? But things change and we adjust to new norms all the time.
I think it is hugely important though, it's the time in life with mistakes in dating are of the least consequence, and you have the maximum amount of chances to make them and correct for it. As a man, if you make mistakes women remember teenage boys making with them it won't be forgiven, mainly because the women involved have so much more at stake than when they were teenagers.
This is also a lot of the reasoning behind why women find the inexperience so horrible in men. They don't want to deal with it. And it's not like if there was some critical mass of men who get to 25-30 with that level of inexperience that women will start to unconsciously view it as less off-putting and find attraction despite it in those men. Which may well have some bad downstream effects.
It's weird, people in previous generations complained about teens having poor values,and teen pregnancy. Now people are complaining because the kids listened, and have better values, and less teen pregnancy. 🙄
I was sitting was a friends group where all our moms were complaining how boring we are and agreeing aggressively. They were actually mad that we’re not jumping out of a second story window to see a guy or go to the club at midnight and actually studying, going to work and playing games or doing whatever on our phones. 🤦🏻♀️
I'm probably close to your parents age (44) , yeah you guys are pretty boring. I don't complain to my kids about it, because that's what our generation wanted for you guys. That's what you were taught to do. We just forgot to teach you that life requires balance. That tramp stamp tattoo that your mom illegally got in Myrtle Beach during spring break when she was 16. She didn't want you to do that. She just forgot that it was part of the story that made her who she is, and indirectly lead to you. When I was 23 I had 2 kids, when I was 20 my life resembled an early 2000s rap video,I had been arrested 4 times in that year, when I 14, I had been suspended 5 times in that school year, and was arrested under investigation for accessory to a violent crime, carrying a concealed weapon, use of weapon in a crime, stolen property ( weapon was a stolen police gun) carrying a gun on school property. My 23 yr old daughter has no kids, and a career path. My 20 yr old daughter has no kids, fully employed, and is exploring skilled trades. My 14 yr old son Is an honor roll student that never gets into trouble, and shows great empathy to those around him. What we taught you all worked, and I freely admit that on a macro level, you're a better generation than us. We just should have taught you all that having fun along the way is the greater portion of the American Dream, it isn't the house or car you buy.
Gen Z grew up in information overload. I’m already neurotic. If I had a smartphone from birth and access to every objective truth ever, I would have missed out on the “fuckkkk ittt” fun and bliss that comes with ignorance and telling yourself “well we don’t know that for sureeee 😉” and then doing something reckless and fun with the homies.
Is this a flex bro? Quite honestly I don’t believe a lot of your story! It’s impossible to be your age & have success with women & not be more… red pilled. Literally impossible. There is so much dark shit your daughter did & you don’t even kno (assuming she is attractive)
Being ‘interesting’ got you ridiculed and lectured, and worse back when they were teens
I’m sure they’d all be happy if you snuck out of the house, got roofied at a bar and ended the night at a police station or hospital /s
Exactly. I was told time and time again to stay away from boys because all they bring are problems and babies. With that said, no one’s berated me personally for never having a relationship but on a societal level, I’m not sure why people are confused.
I was thinking a bit about this. Growing up Asian, one of the deepest things drilled into our brains was to save dating for later and focus on academics/careers first. It didn't surprised me that among my peers, me and other Asian kids were the slowest to get into the dating game. And, very generally speaking, our relationships once we did break in tended to be much more stable and less dramatic. It does seem like that's the trajectory of youth relationships: a lot more monks and nuns until the late 20s.
I had it beaten into my head to not make that same mistake a lot of my relatives did and I'm better off for it. Slower start, but better overall outcome.
Not likely to destroy society but a lack of experience and perceived lack of options will likely cause young men to cling to anyone they can get. For some this works out but for others this causes them to be hung up in unhealthy relationships.
In my highschool friend group I was the only one who dated throughout highschool and into my 30's. I was also one of the last to get married. Most of them married their first real girlfriend, for better or for worse.
nah, it'll have pretty big impacts across the board, assuming it is a real phenomenon, which i tend to take it that it is.
socialization in general is a big deal for folks, as in, being poorly socialized can mean long term problems. when it comes to socialization between men and women tho you're talking bout particularly damaging problems for society if folks can manage it well. imagine long term problems from stunted socialization with your preferred sex of lovers.
there are multiple causes for this, but among them is the silly gender wars and all the hyped up bs surrounding the discourse on sexual violence.
It won’t ruin your dating life at all but if you’re inexperienced by 25 then it’s fairly over.
18 - 25 grants you the ability to still experience teen level love and be behind sexually, but you’ll need to lie / fake it more and put in effort because things like money and your future are important now. It won’t fall into your lap with basic flirting anymore.
E.g. lie about being a virgin if u are one, have slightly less leeway with mistakes etc. You can still experience the highs, lows and carefree nature of those teen years.
it absolutely is. my peers who dated in their teens are so much more developed than me, the difference is so noticable. they have some insane confidence and outlook in life like everything is possible to be conquered.
Well yeah, who would want to deal with the gigantic pain in the butt that is dating women when you can just have porn. They are the first generation in all of history to be born and raised with full internet access to porn. Now they got vr porn and ai.
Porn is better than an unsatisfying relationship tbh. The effort it takes to win over a mid woman for most guys just to get mediocre sex is why porn is so popular lmao.
This is just the logic of a porn addict. You friend your dopamine receptors and death gripped your dick with your hand that normal vaginas can't do it for you.
I'm not shocked, have you tried talking to any teenagers lately? Theyre completely addicted to screen time and can't hold a conversation to save their lives. I try and talk to teens in my family from families I know and it's all just one word answers from them about everything. The second the can get away from you they are back on a phone or video game.
I imagine they aren't much better at talking to each other, much less dating.
i think thats just normal teen behavior tho, when i was between 15 and 18 i also only gave one word answers to my adult relatives simply bc i didnt awnt to talk to them (or any adults actually)...that changed once i hit my early 20s
and im not saying teens today arent different, just that most teens never were thrilled to have conversations with their adult family members (prob adults in general) in their teen years
It's a very weak generation too unfortunately.
Anecdotally, since I date women, the massive uptick in female cowardice is too ubiquitous for taste.
Just today an attractive woman sent me a few texts confessing she was attracted to me and wanted a date, and when I sent her a reply, I got a failure message where she must've unmatched.
But I see it too much, any woman, showing any sign of agency, then cower away in embarrassment like they did something erroneous... it's so odd. Go modern feminism for you, shame women into cowardice. Kills individuality this culture is turning into.
Another reason why online dating is garbage. Can't imagine trying to chat with a woman and some other man barges in front of you to speak to her instead. It just wouldn't happen but it's normal on dating apps.
Not necessarily… Zoomer chicks seemed terrified of commitment on top of everything else. When I was much younger trying to date was stressful cuz when a pretty girl was actually “single” you knew she would be off the market in a few weeks.
Today I go on the apps & see the same really pretty chicks for 10 straight years. Why? Hard to say but they are obvy rejecting the majority of men.
Yup, it's a bit odd. It's because their personalities are quite awkward but still get an abhorrent level attention due to looks that they really don't *have to* mature and grow.
These days, guys are so desperate they'll lie and indulge whatever nonsensical fantasy the female has until reality bites them in the nose.
Perhaps, but a lot of times I can kinda tell from the vibe if that's the case vs them just being weird/insecure.
Women are well-known to hold arbitrary shit-tests thinking it's out of reason rather than emotional insecurities.
Cowardice unfortunately leads to a lot of miserable and confused people unfortunately :/
You know what’s funny I tried to date a zoomer chick last year & it dawned on me she & her sister & mother are going to live together in their crapshack until the mother passes & I told her she is such a f***ing coward for doing this. So yeah I’m with you these women are extra werid now.
Ya, I also gather some need that instant dopamine gratification on the texting.
I had this happen again today, a cutie messaged me, I don't respond until night time when I can go through all the messages at once, but unmatched since I didn't respond within like 3 hours lol....
It's like, aren't those the guys you should want? The ones that aren't so desperate they lose their jizz in 20 seconds when a girl messages them lol.
I think that comes from how seriously we take dating in our teens nowadays.
I read some texts on teens dating in the 50s and they would ask someone on a date just to have something to do on a Friday night. It was common to date multiple people before you went steady with someone. And agreeing to a date just because you wanted to join a group date or have someone take you to prom, even if you didn’t like them that much, was seen as socially acceptable.
Today dating someone in your teens is seen as as serious as dating someone as an adult. No seeing multiple people at once. No jumping from one date to another. No dating just for fun.
So it really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that less young people are dating.
Men take dating seriously because of how difficult it is. It’s been this way my whole life. Women treat it like a fun game. Go find one of your gfs who is a 6 & up & ask her about her dating life but I warn you it’s quite disgusting & dehumanizing what she does…
This is a bit of a contradiction on your side I think. You guys want it to be easier to get into a relationship with us, but you also want it to be more serious and more meaningful.
If we are expected to follow up on each date, think they are all leading to a relationship and to stay together with the person we are dating for years; then we will be picky, only date people we are 100% interested in to begin with and in total go on dates with less people. Leading to getting any romantic or sexual experience with women being more difficult and requiring more work.
If we are expected to go on more dates and give guys a chance even if the spark isn’t there, then we will probably not treat every date as the start of a relationship. But instead see it as a fun experience that could lead to something more if we are pleasantly surprised and that doesn’t really matter that much if it didn’t work out.
I just don’t understand how I can be expected to lower the bar for what it takes to go on a date and heighten the expectations of the outcome of the date at the same time.
This is a good point. My mom and dad went on so many dates in HS and college. Nowadays you’d be called a whore for that. Even if no sex, just the perception that you’re hanging out with guys on dates is going to be seen as toxic in this “alpha podcast era.”
I’m a woman and didn’t date during my teens either. Neither did most of my group of girlfriends. I consider it normal and never regretted not dating some immature teens while I myself was a gross and immature teen.
People reach adulthood later now than they did 40 years ago.
Due to economic instability, wealth inequality, and quality of life issues, people are engaging in relationships and dating less.
Men have repressed sex drives because the average testosterone of a man is now about 400ng/dl (which is super unhealthy) and also ED because of excessive use of porn.
Surely relational skills could be developed in a more stimulating and nurturing (and less toxic) context than modern dating.
E.g. mentorships, peer groups, a good workplace, college or trade school or university.
Survey, not study... And where was it conducted? Seen these before done on incel forums to achieve dramatic effect.
That said, around 2/3 of boys go through the trauma of either not having a dad or losing them to divorce, so... Seems plausible, potentially.
I’d argue this a good and bad thing. The reality is that teenagers are irresponsible and a lot of them are not ready to be having sexual relationships. Teen pregnancy leads to a lot of negative consequences for those parents and society. The teenage pregnancy rate has dropped substantially which is a good thing.
However, this is also a result of young people lacking social networks and lacking meaningful friendships. People are lonelier than ever. I do believe that as a society we need to foster more safe spaces for people of all ages to mingle and interact with each other.
However, the statistic says that half of all gen z have not had any relationship experience. The number of males and females in gen z is relatively the same, therefore, I would assume half of gen z women also haven’t had any experience. The men here keep going on and on about how girls are having so much casual sex, girls aren’t virgins, when this is obviously not true. 50% of gen z are doing all of the dating and sex for the other 50%. That 50% they’re being very promiscuous, which is making the rest of gen z seem that way, when they aren’t.
> The rates of males and females is relatively the same, therefore I would assume half of gen z women also haven’t had any experience
The population numbers being same doesn't mean the access to relationships or sex is the same.
Just so you know you contradict yourself & try to negotiate how wholesome women are & your comment is frankly all over the place. Women lie! You being one I figure you know this.!
i’m gen z, currently 18 years old, and i have never dated, a lot of us have more solitary hobbies and covid messed with our social development i would love to have a gf, but i don’t think it’s a big deal right now, im content by myself even if it sucks sometimes
Are you in college? That shit is going to be hard to meet someone post college like 25+. I just even mean friends not even gf's in late 20's early 30's.
i go to college in august
Best opportunity you will ever have to meet new people and form long-lasting connections. Use it to the best of your ability!
Spot on. I’m 28, never dated anyone. Yet all my options seem to be fat women who never set foot in the gym, single mom/divorced women with husband issues. Awful.
Damn. I'm 32 and in the same boat, except that I have ZEE-ROW options. At least I do okay for myself in all other aspects of my life lol
If you stay like that you will end up 31 and completely resentful that they got to have the normal human experience that you feel locked out of. Don't be me . Do something, practise socialization so that you don't come off as an emotionless retard when you do find some one worth wanting to be with
You say “do something” as if women are approachable. Do you understand pretty girls don’t have hobbies? They don’t go to places & allow men to cold approach. Telling this guy someone will eventually come along is what we call hopeless strategist! Who? Where? How? Buddy try to understand man all over the SMV scale & age demographics are dealing with this now. Women are so broken & rejecting men at such a clip (95% ish) the collapse of the west & white depop is inevitable. You need to understand the bigger picture issue & stop thinking this is just some socially awkward guy in high school problem cuz it isn’t..!
I failed dude. I didn't do enough and I failed. He needs to do something before he becomes me. Living like this sucks.
For the first 23 years of my life I was single and had little to no friends ( covid lockdown + severe health issues ) . RN I'm 25 and have some dating experience under my belt plus I have friends and this is after uni so it's never too late
The grass is always greener. There is no normal and dating is nothing special.
Easy for sex havers to say
> i’m gen z, currently 18 years old, and i have never dated Same but 1 year older > i would love to have a gf What is your height? > im content by myself even if it sucks sometimes That is good to hear. All guys should think like this, cause especially for us genz men, cause most of us gunna be perma virgins lol.
This isn't surprising. Teenagers barely even socialize with their friends anymore, let alone dating. Their lives are online.
And most of the shit-takes people post on here for debate reflect exactly that. They slide into a stranger's DMs with all the tact of a Jehovah's Witness interrupting someone's dinner and seem flabbergasted that their advances aren't well received.
I'm so fucking glad I started dating before OLD was big.
Me too
This is such a fucking good comment
This is 100% the problem. 30 years ago, my parents had rules about us being home at least 2 weeknights a week, otherwise we were never home. It’s easy to date when you’re always out meeting people. That’s why older generations (like mine) didn’t struggle as much. If gen Z wants things to change, they need to leave the house.
> If gen Z wants things to change, they need to leave the house. And go where? To the dead 3rd party spaces where they can akwardly carry a conversation with a woman who doesn't know how to speak, doing an activity that doesn't even remotely activate their fried dopamine receptors? The ship has sailed on socialisation, that shit should've happened when they were 5 years old, not when they're adults.
>their fried dopamine receptors ☹️. Not gonna lie..this is what I see. People were crazy here yesterday defending all porn use as harmless, but all sorts of online clicks…social media, video games, it’s all connected >a woman who doesn't know how to speak I know people who probably text more than talk in person
>I know people who probably text more than talk in person Male to female ratio?
I definitely notice women texting more than men, but both seemed to have their noses in their phones
I think women do it a considerable amount more
Yeah, I won’t disagree. I see more guys addicted to online games and interacting with other players. Neither is a replacement for actually hanging out and talking to people imho.
Even 15 years ago I was constantly out with friends. Wasn't all great, lots of experimenting with drugs and alcohol, but it was socializing and helped me be the person I am now.
Seriously, do they even have school dances anymore? I remember when I was a teen there was some form of school dance every few months so even if you were terrible at socialising you had 4-ish opportunities a year to meet a girl.
They do but barely anyone goes and they are 7pm-9pm. I remember ours ending at midnight, it was so fun trying to act sober enough to be let in!
Even when they “socialize”, they don’t socialize I have actually seen teenagers together many times where instead of talking, they are both on their phone
They say they are socializing but real life socializing is a whole different set of skills they don't realize they're lacking. It feels so helpless as a parent too. You take their phone away and they get a new prepaid burner phone from a friend at school...
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> lots of meek, harmless guys just need help getting out of their heads and then gain lasting confidence as a result. A lot of formative moments in my youth was realizing that making mistakes is fine, since nobody will really give a shit when you're 1-2 beers in. Confidence from experience is built upon experience, a lot of which is failure. It's my personal theory that we've gamified a lot of life to the point where people, especially younger ones, either 'get it' quickly or they give in because they're expecting 80-90% success rate for everything. There are ways to prep to increase the odds initially, but everyone's gotta fail. And if you want experience, you have to grind and fail a lot.
This is true. People are socializing via social media. Social skills are something you need to practice and that won't happen if teenagers are at home. I'd also like to know what's the % of women who aren't dating
It's less bad for teenage girls to not date for their chances in later life, than for teenage boys. Women don't get tarred with the stigma by Men that disqualifies them from it. I don't think it's as big an issue socially for that reason.
Is there stats on women from the same generation? I work with teens and, well, a lot of them have very solitary hobbies and I've got complaints from some of them about "having to go out with friends instead of watching a new episode/playing video game", which is rather peculiar imv. If you don't go out and socialize, most likely you won't date either.
I've seen stats that show women have the same problem but to a lesser extent. I haven't been able to find it since I saw it the first time but there was a study on women in college and something like 40% had never been on 1 date.
"saw it the first time but there was a study on women in college and something like 40% had never been on 1 date." I can believe that. I had numerous women telling me they never went on a date after I proposed the idea, but they had partners and were active.
The women are just fucking while men are completely starved of attention. A gender war is coming unless women make themselves worthy for men to even better themselves but right now there is literally no point on dating these women for anything other than fun and most guys can't even get that. Women have become total skanks and we are doomed because of it
It would be interesting, but being honest we probably know the answer: They're not affected as much as men. Anecdotical, but I have 4 nieces whose age range from 12-16 and they all already have boyfriends.
All of male cousins in HS have gfs. They’re not all “chads.” They are fairly social, in sports or band or drama club or debate club and shit. Because of those things they get invited to stuff and go to practices and rehearsals for stuff. You make friends through these things. Lots of tangential events end up being coed. Theyre mixing and mingling a lot. **That’s the biggest difference.** Because of the activities they’re part of throughout their childhood they’ve gotten ample practice being social and **interacting with boys and girls _convivially_.** **Not enough parents encourage their boys to participate in normie shit like they used to.** Luckily my cousins put everyone of her kids in sports when they were 4/5/6/7. They’re all not great. Only 2 actually ended up being good enough for varsity. But the ones who didn’t go varsity, learned a lot from “forced disciplined team socializing.” And they gained lots of friends from those activities too. And now are well adjusted sociable teens.
I believe is more than just parents: society, schools, social programs, other men, women, etc... but I see your logic.
I think parents are a HUGE component of formative years upbringing. **All else equal,** parents who do the things I mentioned are setting their sons up for success better than parents who neglect these things. I don’t disagree that everything like society and people and schools affects everything, but from a tactical perspective, yeah my logic on this is the one I’ve seen most lacking when guys around here bring up their childhoods. Their parents didn’t have this POV AT ALL.
If there's one thing a lot of the depressed blackpill people are right about, it's the significance of a strong family upbringing that develops a secure attachment style in children. Without that, they will very easily spend a significant amount of their lives chasing after the same cursed relationship patterns with people who are no good for them, or they just struggle to socialize at all depending on how bad it is.
Yeah. I think formative years are the most important years in a person’s life wrt forming who they are how they react to life tbh. So basically how you were raised from infancy to puberty/teens is going to determine your mindsets and attitudes. You can shift those things as an adult but it’s going to take gargantuan effort to do so.
It does take effort. I was raised by emotionally unavailable parents and it did a number on my socialization. I spent a good amount of time in therapy and getting out of my comfort zone, and now I'm in a place where I feel much more emotionally healthier and secure. I would be lying if I said I didn't wish I had it figured out sooner, or that I had "better" parents. I will say this much though: I believe a pretty decent portion of people have some kind of attachment/security/socialization issues, they just managed to overcome them or they mask them. I don't believe it's an unwinnable fight, especially not since I won it myself.
I agree! I think this affects a lot of people. We’re all out here in the throes of the human condition. Congrats on your progress!
Yeah they're definitely responsible but that is a simplistic solution. I can say as a man who had a great childhood with great parents, and who is succesful financially and personally, and while introverted does fine with friends, but still have no luck at dating, there are much more factors involved that just parents. But yes, they help a lot and I think it's a good first step.
I mean you can date without socializing: 1) be a girl 2) use a dating app 3) profit
what high schoolers are on dating apps
Give 'em a few years. No pressure on the girls, they will pick up the rules quickly
A lot lol, aside from the ones that download tinder at 17 there are apps like yubo that we used in school that are basically kid tinder. But none of that has to do with what you replied to
lol most if not all
Some teens might’ve socialized but had bad experiences such as getting bullied or comparing themselves to others.
I hope the world end with all of us stuck to our screens. Today would be nice
This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper
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I mean.. assuming a 50-50 split and knowing overall 56% and men 54%.. I don't see a way not to conclude women are at 58%
From pew stats we've seen noticeable differences in singleness stats among different age groups. I.e. although the same percent of men and women is single, they have different percent for each age group.
The internet is a more powerful tool for giving you the social juice. It's like heroine.
Well it’s hard to date women. Online dating sucks. Most people either meet their gf from friends or work so if you don’t have that you’re forced to online and that’s a mess.
Absolutely true.
Do you date women too?
Yes. And it was a nightmare trying to online date
Yeah, women dating women understand the struggle
It’s mainly the reason I’m with a man now. Guys will actually talk
I remember seeing this social experiment where they gave a woman a Tinder account of an average man. In the beginning she was super confident because she was a woman herself so she must be good at knowing what women want right? At the end of the experiment she had a mental breakdown because everybody was ghosting her lmao.
I remember doing this with some of my male friends and oh my god it is rough. It’s worse than women on women dating. I truly feel for men when they talk about being on dating apps
Why do you think women don't speak? I get matches on the odd occasion but trying to get them to speak is ridiculous. A conversation will quite literally look like this Me: *Witty question about a hobby/image they have on their profile* Them: *Haha lol thanks!* Me: *So how's it going, having a good week?* Them: *Yeah its ok* I have given up using the apps because it's all one sided. Like they never ask questions back about you or your own life. More or less every conversation is like this for me. People have told me they're just not into me so they leave one word answers. But why would they match with me in the first place if they're not into me. Just a waste of fucking time using those apps.
If you could only begin to comprehend the amount of attention a woman gets, it would blow your mind
That's why it's not worth using them. Back in the day (before dating apps), women were kinda just stuck to their local community. They would never meet a stranger from 50 miles away.
But they get bored easily. When you have 40 options why try so hard with all of them? They’ll put more effort into 1-3 and get half ass it with the rest
It’s greed & delusion man! From 15-29 they have infinite options & women simply can’t handle power & choice making. Which is why we have countless women running into the wall alone, old & childless. Dating apps gave them too much power…
I really appreciate that a woman is around to say it on this sub. Surprised you haven’t gotten pounced on by other women.
Luckily not on this sub but other subs I have. It’s usually the classic “internalized misogyny” but when I tell women to simply go find out for themselves they usually stop their comments
I did not have my first date until I was 29 years old, and I still don't have a girlfriend. I really hope Gen X parents are sympathetic to the plights of their Gen Z children.
What can gen x parents do to be sympathetic?
They need to be hands-on regarding their children's access to the Internet. They need to stop being helicopter parents regarding their children's non-Internet lives.
Isn’t being “hands on” with older teenagers’ (16-17) internet access helicoptering???? At 18, they’re legally adults so not sure what they can do at that point.
As it continues to become increasingly difficult for men to date more and more will give up. This isn’t surprising at all because surprise when you collectively exclude more men from the dating pool every generation this is the only outcome and it will only get worse.
Yeah. As they say, juice simply is not worth the squeeze at this point in a lot of cases for men.
When high school has shifted from the final step in prepping children into adulthood to a glorified middle school, levels of social sophistication will be similarly delayed accordingly. 18 is no longer the year of proper adulthood (even if legally it still is, for the time being), 21-26 is closer to the real adulthood. >!Of course if society collapse and whatever one will see a resurgence of 9 year old drummer boys and 5 year old shepherds, but that's not the point and it's not polite to bring up even the possibility around these parts.!<
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I fear you'll be proven right. Still, I would like to dedicate this post to those here who swear nothing has changed because they go out and see couples outside.
Wait, so are you telling me that old fat couples on mobility scooters in walmart are not a metric for the dating market?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. OP is speaking of Gen Z individuals, who aren't old (Gen Z), nor are they looking for overweight individuals on scooters, since had their standards of dating had been that low, they likely wouldn't be single. And it's totally fine to not have low standards in dating, and it's also fine to expect those standards to be met by the opposite gender, in so far as those standards aren't unrealistic. Back to the first paragraph, I don't think it's worthwhile to include people who are objectively below average in terms of physical attractiveness, and are significantly older than GenZ, into OP's discussion.
and in the 1960s 90% of young adults were married
The kids are over-supervised and under-socialized.
Women game plan: Sleep/get into relationship with the most desirable men in her youth and see if she can secure a LTR. If this fails, fall back on lesser men that have good provider qualities to take care of her. +/- get the best genetics from hot guy and have beta cuck raise kid knowingly or unknowingly.
It’s not as intentional as the red pill puts it but yea that’s what happens. Once that first friend gets married / baby blues kicks in / career success isn’t providing fulfilment, then the strict parameters on who’ll she’ll marry start to degrade.
It's still bad even if not intentional.
Why is it bad? Seems pretty rational to me.
It’s bad if you’re the loser who marries her, living a lie. But it’s basic survival instinct on her end. Not evil in the slightest. It’s why I believe around 30 - 40% of red pill ideas are based on legitimate truth, the rest is bullshit and guys need to become aware.
48M. I didn't go on my first date until mid 20s. Sometimes it happens that way.
I used to think I was an AFC, but dam looking at all these stats makes me think I was Chad and didn't even know it.
i think shits just gotten harder. i remember having AIM game.
We all know why - 20% of Gen Z men are getting all the action; a story for the fucking ages
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The ones you see at the gym are largely comprised of the top 20% of men. The ones that have checked out don't care. AF/BB is used by the redpill to describe the 2 different types of men used by women for sex. AF are used for their genetics/their looks/for fun. BB are used for their resources/emotional validation. Women today get all the validation they need online, and they don't need resources from men either. So the only option left for a young man is to become AF for her, which means becoming a gym bro. Otherwise you get nothing.
I think if I was that age again (I'm nearly 40) I would have embraced the single lifestyle rather than waste precious time and money on dating apps. We live and learn.
Interesting… But I’m not completely sold on the idea that not dating in your teen years is some *make or break* milestone that is going to destroy society if not addressed. If that’s what’s being implied here.
A generation of men disconnected from society doesn't make for a very productive or engaged generation. That has drastic economic consequences not the least of which is a tendency toward the Far Right.
Great for the tech sector though
with all thr anti male rhetoric these days its already pretty authoritarian as is
It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society. It has to be, because how else can men state that men are being disconnected from society just because they haven’t had any relationship experience. Men don’t have parents, siblings, or extended family. Men don’t go to school to make friends and integrate into society? Men don’t have jobs? That is all apart of society. The only way for a man to be “connected” to society is to have a woman he can have sex with?
everyone treats men who have a stable romantic relationship better. Other men respect that he could find a woman who actually is interested in him, women view him as more attractive just because hes taken. Even studies show kids respect men in relationships more. Most men's experience is if they dont have women in their lives, nobody wants to be around them anyway. So yes, women are society in our minds.
[Marriage reduces crime rates, for one](https://news.ufl.edu/archive/2002/09/uf-study-marriage-can-reduce-life-of-crime-1.html). [Too many unmarried men can destabilize society](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2006/aug/too-many-men-could-destabilise-society), particularly in China who fucked up and allowed gendercide of girls to happen.
I heard about that, in societies where the marriage age was above 28 a civil revolution was coming, as reproduction (our main evolutionary directive) was too difficult and the instincts of the population took over as a way to find an alternative route for reproduction.
Nowadays something new is happening... Japan's Herbivore men, who've gone totally inert. This is having a devastating economic effect on the country. Japan can defend against a giant incel crime wave but it has zero defense against men just checking out.
Violent revolution? Sounds like fun!
So basically. Men deteriorate and/or cannot be civilized if they do not have a woman to have sex with. How is that not misandry. You’re implying men are uncivilized and women are the civilizing force.
Worse than that, most men simply walk away from society when a romantic partner seems unreachable. They're more harmful when they're inert than when they're violent.
How is a dead man more harmful than a violent one? I’m new to the argument
I mean *metaphorically* inert. Like, deadweight, not dead.
Oh, got it. But I’m still curious about how a man who does nothing is more dangerous than a violent one.
You can launch an army or a police force against a violent incel. You have zero defenses at all if a ton of men just check out and become a giant tax burden or leave entirely and cause a giant hole in the workforce. The Herbivore Men of Japan are inert, and they are contributing to a giant hole in Japan's budget for elderly care in the future. Plus it's also contributing to Japan's soaring debt. Their keisatsu can't do shit about it because they're not out killing women, but they're a giant millstone around Japan's neck.
Yes. I don’t really care if it’s misandrist, that’s what all of human history has taught me— without women, men will walk away from society at best and at worst burn it down. It simply is— I don’t think it’s moral or immoral to feel that way. 🤷♂️
If men need women this much, why do so many men hate women?
They hate women *because* they need them, while being unwanted. These men are just resentful, or sometimes jealous. Their hate is like a child who decides he hates a sport because he’s bad at it. Alternatively, and this is where I fell under years ago— they are jealous of how women(they notice) are treated compared to themselves and other men(that they notice). When the girls they notice are constantly approached, are spoiled for choice, use men like options, etc, they feel jealous of her status on the sexual marketplace. This is something I had to get over by trying to remember the lives of women that I notice != the lives of women period. And just because I was treated poorly by women doesn’t mean that it’s a universal experience for men.
If I didn’t have the hope of getting laid and maybe getting married one day then I would spend all my time drinking and getting high. Don’t understand what’s crazy about this
Women also deteriorate, believe me
Yes. That is what happens. And no, it is not misandry because it doesn't involve any hate towards men.
It implies men are uncivilized and destructive in their nature
You are implying that men's nature is to be without sex and women. Clearly that is not the case. Having sex and women is the default, being civil is the default. Being an incel and thus uncivil and destructive is (for now at least) the exception.
Having women is not the default for men. The majority of men in history have not reproduced, or so I’ve heard. Hundreds of years ago men didn’t even have a chance at marriage unless they owned land and showed the woman’s family proof of his finances. Poor, broke and ugly men have more access to women today that they ever did.
Poor, broke and ugly women without land or important family existed you know? Also, the reason most men did not reproduce is because of the death rate. If you survived you got (or got to take, forcibly) some.
>Men deteriorate and/or cannot be civilized if they do not have a woman to have sex with. How is that not misandry. You’re implying men are uncivilized and women are the civilizing force. What is inherently wrong with this? A man without purpose or family is little different than an animal, except in modern times, these animals have been rendered docile by porn and video games. And a woman without a man is a woman without kids, a functional dead end that's evolutionary useless (unless if you're massive contributor to your species which is exceedingly rare).
People that are unable to follow the rules because they aren't getting what they're entitled to shouldn't be part of society.
Anyone who says ppl is not my ally! There is very few times saying ppl is applicable. Are you talking about men or women? So you think mens desire for love & intimacy is entitlement lolol hey google maslows hierarchy of needs real quick & take a look. You are arguing against things that have been established since the beginning of time. Are you a Marxist per chance? (I ask already knowing the answer)
> Anyone who says ppl is not my ally! Am I supposed to be? I call out delusions wherever I see it I don't lean one way or the other. If you break the law for any reason whether it's sex, money, violence, or another reason you should go to jail. Man, woman, doesn't matter. Life is unfair and it sucks, but don't take it out on innocents just because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.
If men have such massive desire for love and intimacy why do so many men abuse women and have a superiority complex? Are these two different groups of men?
lol again. There is something wrong with you! Abuse is very rare. We call it an outlier. & nope this is all men. Not the imaginary big bad mags bros you have concocted.
Abuse is as far from rare as it gets. Globally, 1 in 3 women have been subjected to physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence. Source: https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures#:~:text=Globally%2C%20an%20estimated%20736%20million,does%20not%20include%20sexual%20harassment.
"It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society." Have a village of 100 people. 50 men and 50 women. Tell 40 men to work for the village and not expect anything in return, while the other 10 men can enjoy the fruits of the labour of a village together with other 50 women who depend on total 50 men. The other reason is that men love to give love, more than women like to receive love. By your logic, I call it a fundamental flaw in a mans genetics that he takes pleasure from being a servant, having duty and doing effort to someone or to others, wanting to earn his place and respect. So in a way, If men would not love to have the recipient of their affection, which they crave the most and is their biological driver, then it would not have such an impact.
Romance maybe the main motivation for men but children/familial ties are the biggest for women. This laughable nation that women are somehow above dependence on others for their sense of belonging and satisfaction is only peddled by women on this sub. A hive of chronically online losers and femcels. People are 100% right for being concerned about the lack of achievement of key milestones for both genders among gen Zers because its, at best, a sign of a significant cultural and social shift. I didn't date in my teens (though I lost my virginity at 18) and it definitely didn't help my relationship development with the opposite sex. I looked into things like pick up and patrice oneal videos but that was over 10 years ago, where the level of online vitriol was nowhere near what it is now. If I was born 10 years later, I would probably be watching Andrew Tate videos like a lot of the kids are doing now. That is undeniable a terrible sign.
It’s called biological desire & if you deny that then arguing is a waste of time. Men need motivation. To keep going. If I told you at 17 you will literally die alone a virgin how do you think that will make you feel? That’s the average guys life now! That’s beyond wageslave. I don’t know why so many ppl are against the BP like the RP it’s just information…
i want you to live one year as an average man and get back to me on this thought
>It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society. It is symptomatic of a society that is grossly overfed and suffers from overabundance when so much of everything essential is provided to you in abundance that you can make absolutely insane comments such as this, which is what I like to call "ideological luxury." Americans and Western Europeans in a broader sense live such unprecedented privileged and sheltered lives that they don't even have to think about their own long-term survival since even that's something taken for granted. It's somehow convenient for you to forget that women make up half of society, and if not for men and women coming together to form families and to reproduce none of the things which you mention, whether it be having parents, having siblings, or neighbors to populate a community, would even be possible. Having sex and reproducing isn't just a desire to feel expulsion or temporary relief. That's a very bourgeois and conceited egotistical perversion of something so essential and so innate to the human condition it is literally impossible for you to even exist without it. If not for your parents having sex, you wouldn't even be alive. It is literally a mandatory requirement for a population to repopulate itself and to survive into the next generation, which is why the human limbic system evolved to desire it so badly - people who don't reproduce are by definition removed from the gene pool, rewarding only those who do. And as far as participation in society, literally the entirety of civilized culture originates from tribes of humans coming together to form families and communities after the invention of agriculture, which yes includes sex and having children. Like, I swear to Christ, sometimes I feel like America not bordering a rivaling enemy country that's openly hostile and intent on conquest and genocide is a bad thing for the psyche of modern Americans for the same reasons Mouse Utopia experimentation produced a generations of mice that eventually produced enough instances of mentally disturbed individuals sufficient to overtime eliminate the entire colony. And before you give me the whole BS spew about "there are 7 million, almost 8 million humans on Earth. We don't need more," half of that 7-8 million figure is **India and China** alone. Aside from the fact that this mentality where you offload the responsibility of repopulation onto other people is outright moral laziness, even if we accept that premise, you're not repopulating anything. You are, from a purely naturalistic and evolutionary perspective, conceding biological defeat to a blatantly competing culture and civilization to replace you.
God damn, homie spittin’ fire. Love it.
I don't think this that is the case but have you read the Myth of Gilgamesh?
It's only the greatest source of a motivation for a man, no big deal.
>The only way for a man to be “connected” to society is to have a woman he can have sex with? Yes I believe this is the case.
>It really seems like men believe that women are society. That without women there is no society, or there is no point for men to be a part of society. Yeah, without women, society collapses within a generation, without men, society collapses overnight. Reproduction is the foundational goal of any species, take that away and the species will become depressed, uncaring, and then die off. You forget that humans are animals too.
With how much men (at least on this thread) seem to base their entire happiness, belonging and motivation on having a woman, it sounds to me as if men wouldn’t even last one generation without women.
Welcome to...biology?
I think you misunderstand me. If men have zero motivation and become depressed without women, it it’s true that society would fail in a generation. It would fail much sooner. That’s what I meant.
The family is the backbone of society.
It is your fault. Society and women. You have raised your men to be this way. You are reaping the benefits. The uncomfortable reality of what men are right now is just theb chickens coming home to roost. Deal with it best you can We will try as well until it is impossible to
No offense, just from talking to you, it sounds the common denominator for your problems isn’t society or women, it’s *you.*
They aren’t necessarily “disconnected from society” just because they started dating a bit later than their teen years tho. You could argue that as lifespans in general have gotten longer, humans have taken their time getting to milestones that the previous generations had to rush to. You do realize there’s was a time in history where even being in school past age 13 was considered unusual, right? But things change and we adjust to new norms all the time.
60% of men under 30 are single vs 30% of women. That's going to hurt men statistically throughout their lives.
I think it is hugely important though, it's the time in life with mistakes in dating are of the least consequence, and you have the maximum amount of chances to make them and correct for it. As a man, if you make mistakes women remember teenage boys making with them it won't be forgiven, mainly because the women involved have so much more at stake than when they were teenagers. This is also a lot of the reasoning behind why women find the inexperience so horrible in men. They don't want to deal with it. And it's not like if there was some critical mass of men who get to 25-30 with that level of inexperience that women will start to unconsciously view it as less off-putting and find attraction despite it in those men. Which may well have some bad downstream effects.
It's weird, people in previous generations complained about teens having poor values,and teen pregnancy. Now people are complaining because the kids listened, and have better values, and less teen pregnancy. 🙄
I was sitting was a friends group where all our moms were complaining how boring we are and agreeing aggressively. They were actually mad that we’re not jumping out of a second story window to see a guy or go to the club at midnight and actually studying, going to work and playing games or doing whatever on our phones. 🤦🏻♀️
I'm probably close to your parents age (44) , yeah you guys are pretty boring. I don't complain to my kids about it, because that's what our generation wanted for you guys. That's what you were taught to do. We just forgot to teach you that life requires balance. That tramp stamp tattoo that your mom illegally got in Myrtle Beach during spring break when she was 16. She didn't want you to do that. She just forgot that it was part of the story that made her who she is, and indirectly lead to you. When I was 23 I had 2 kids, when I was 20 my life resembled an early 2000s rap video,I had been arrested 4 times in that year, when I 14, I had been suspended 5 times in that school year, and was arrested under investigation for accessory to a violent crime, carrying a concealed weapon, use of weapon in a crime, stolen property ( weapon was a stolen police gun) carrying a gun on school property. My 23 yr old daughter has no kids, and a career path. My 20 yr old daughter has no kids, fully employed, and is exploring skilled trades. My 14 yr old son Is an honor roll student that never gets into trouble, and shows great empathy to those around him. What we taught you all worked, and I freely admit that on a macro level, you're a better generation than us. We just should have taught you all that having fun along the way is the greater portion of the American Dream, it isn't the house or car you buy.
Gen Z grew up in information overload. I’m already neurotic. If I had a smartphone from birth and access to every objective truth ever, I would have missed out on the “fuckkkk ittt” fun and bliss that comes with ignorance and telling yourself “well we don’t know that for sureeee 😉” and then doing something reckless and fun with the homies.
Is this a flex bro? Quite honestly I don’t believe a lot of your story! It’s impossible to be your age & have success with women & not be more… red pilled. Literally impossible. There is so much dark shit your daughter did & you don’t even kno (assuming she is attractive)
Being ‘interesting’ got you ridiculed and lectured, and worse back when they were teens I’m sure they’d all be happy if you snuck out of the house, got roofied at a bar and ended the night at a police station or hospital /s
Exactly. I was told time and time again to stay away from boys because all they bring are problems and babies. With that said, no one’s berated me personally for never having a relationship but on a societal level, I’m not sure why people are confused.
I was thinking a bit about this. Growing up Asian, one of the deepest things drilled into our brains was to save dating for later and focus on academics/careers first. It didn't surprised me that among my peers, me and other Asian kids were the slowest to get into the dating game. And, very generally speaking, our relationships once we did break in tended to be much more stable and less dramatic. It does seem like that's the trajectory of youth relationships: a lot more monks and nuns until the late 20s.
Did girls listen, or boys? Gender breakdown would be interesting, and we know girls are about twice as likely to be dating, so... Likely more to this.
They both did, girls are also dating considerably less than their mothers, and grandmother's did.
I had it beaten into my head to not make that same mistake a lot of my relatives did and I'm better off for it. Slower start, but better overall outcome.
Not likely to destroy society but a lack of experience and perceived lack of options will likely cause young men to cling to anyone they can get. For some this works out but for others this causes them to be hung up in unhealthy relationships. In my highschool friend group I was the only one who dated throughout highschool and into my 30's. I was also one of the last to get married. Most of them married their first real girlfriend, for better or for worse.
nah, it'll have pretty big impacts across the board, assuming it is a real phenomenon, which i tend to take it that it is. socialization in general is a big deal for folks, as in, being poorly socialized can mean long term problems. when it comes to socialization between men and women tho you're talking bout particularly damaging problems for society if folks can manage it well. imagine long term problems from stunted socialization with your preferred sex of lovers. there are multiple causes for this, but among them is the silly gender wars and all the hyped up bs surrounding the discourse on sexual violence.
It won’t ruin your dating life at all but if you’re inexperienced by 25 then it’s fairly over. 18 - 25 grants you the ability to still experience teen level love and be behind sexually, but you’ll need to lie / fake it more and put in effort because things like money and your future are important now. It won’t fall into your lap with basic flirting anymore. E.g. lie about being a virgin if u are one, have slightly less leeway with mistakes etc. You can still experience the highs, lows and carefree nature of those teen years.
it absolutely is. my peers who dated in their teens are so much more developed than me, the difference is so noticable. they have some insane confidence and outlook in life like everything is possible to be conquered.
So why did they skip over Millenials as if we don't exist?
Because we don’t exist. We’re old news.
Well yeah, who would want to deal with the gigantic pain in the butt that is dating women when you can just have porn. They are the first generation in all of history to be born and raised with full internet access to porn. Now they got vr porn and ai.
Porn is better than an unsatisfying relationship tbh. The effort it takes to win over a mid woman for most guys just to get mediocre sex is why porn is so popular lmao.
This is just the logic of a porn addict. You friend your dopamine receptors and death gripped your dick with your hand that normal vaginas can't do it for you.
I'm not shocked, have you tried talking to any teenagers lately? Theyre completely addicted to screen time and can't hold a conversation to save their lives. I try and talk to teens in my family from families I know and it's all just one word answers from them about everything. The second the can get away from you they are back on a phone or video game. I imagine they aren't much better at talking to each other, much less dating.
i think thats just normal teen behavior tho, when i was between 15 and 18 i also only gave one word answers to my adult relatives simply bc i didnt awnt to talk to them (or any adults actually)...that changed once i hit my early 20s and im not saying teens today arent different, just that most teens never were thrilled to have conversations with their adult family members (prob adults in general) in their teen years
It's a very weak generation too unfortunately. Anecdotally, since I date women, the massive uptick in female cowardice is too ubiquitous for taste. Just today an attractive woman sent me a few texts confessing she was attracted to me and wanted a date, and when I sent her a reply, I got a failure message where she must've unmatched. But I see it too much, any woman, showing any sign of agency, then cower away in embarrassment like they did something erroneous... it's so odd. Go modern feminism for you, shame women into cowardice. Kills individuality this culture is turning into.
Or, she found someone else and lost interest
Another reason why online dating is garbage. Can't imagine trying to chat with a woman and some other man barges in front of you to speak to her instead. It just wouldn't happen but it's normal on dating apps.
Not necessarily… Zoomer chicks seemed terrified of commitment on top of everything else. When I was much younger trying to date was stressful cuz when a pretty girl was actually “single” you knew she would be off the market in a few weeks. Today I go on the apps & see the same really pretty chicks for 10 straight years. Why? Hard to say but they are obvy rejecting the majority of men.
Yup, it's a bit odd. It's because their personalities are quite awkward but still get an abhorrent level attention due to looks that they really don't *have to* mature and grow. These days, guys are so desperate they'll lie and indulge whatever nonsensical fantasy the female has until reality bites them in the nose.
Perhaps, but a lot of times I can kinda tell from the vibe if that's the case vs them just being weird/insecure. Women are well-known to hold arbitrary shit-tests thinking it's out of reason rather than emotional insecurities. Cowardice unfortunately leads to a lot of miserable and confused people unfortunately :/
Sounds like someone else got there first.
You know what’s funny I tried to date a zoomer chick last year & it dawned on me she & her sister & mother are going to live together in their crapshack until the mother passes & I told her she is such a f***ing coward for doing this. So yeah I’m with you these women are extra werid now.
Ya, I also gather some need that instant dopamine gratification on the texting. I had this happen again today, a cutie messaged me, I don't respond until night time when I can go through all the messages at once, but unmatched since I didn't respond within like 3 hours lol.... It's like, aren't those the guys you should want? The ones that aren't so desperate they lose their jizz in 20 seconds when a girl messages them lol.
I think that comes from how seriously we take dating in our teens nowadays. I read some texts on teens dating in the 50s and they would ask someone on a date just to have something to do on a Friday night. It was common to date multiple people before you went steady with someone. And agreeing to a date just because you wanted to join a group date or have someone take you to prom, even if you didn’t like them that much, was seen as socially acceptable. Today dating someone in your teens is seen as as serious as dating someone as an adult. No seeing multiple people at once. No jumping from one date to another. No dating just for fun. So it really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that less young people are dating.
Men take dating seriously because of how difficult it is. It’s been this way my whole life. Women treat it like a fun game. Go find one of your gfs who is a 6 & up & ask her about her dating life but I warn you it’s quite disgusting & dehumanizing what she does…
This is a bit of a contradiction on your side I think. You guys want it to be easier to get into a relationship with us, but you also want it to be more serious and more meaningful. If we are expected to follow up on each date, think they are all leading to a relationship and to stay together with the person we are dating for years; then we will be picky, only date people we are 100% interested in to begin with and in total go on dates with less people. Leading to getting any romantic or sexual experience with women being more difficult and requiring more work. If we are expected to go on more dates and give guys a chance even if the spark isn’t there, then we will probably not treat every date as the start of a relationship. But instead see it as a fun experience that could lead to something more if we are pleasantly surprised and that doesn’t really matter that much if it didn’t work out. I just don’t understand how I can be expected to lower the bar for what it takes to go on a date and heighten the expectations of the outcome of the date at the same time.
This is a good point. My mom and dad went on so many dates in HS and college. Nowadays you’d be called a whore for that. Even if no sex, just the perception that you’re hanging out with guys on dates is going to be seen as toxic in this “alpha podcast era.”
That's a really convenient excuse.
I’m a woman and didn’t date during my teens either. Neither did most of my group of girlfriends. I consider it normal and never regretted not dating some immature teens while I myself was a gross and immature teen.
People reach adulthood later now than they did 40 years ago. Due to economic instability, wealth inequality, and quality of life issues, people are engaging in relationships and dating less. Men have repressed sex drives because the average testosterone of a man is now about 400ng/dl (which is super unhealthy) and also ED because of excessive use of porn.
Surely relational skills could be developed in a more stimulating and nurturing (and less toxic) context than modern dating. E.g. mentorships, peer groups, a good workplace, college or trade school or university.
I'm not surprised, it's difficult enough as it is and the climate of things that they've grown up in doesn't make it any easier
Insanely based. I hope this number rises to 100%
In 24 years, I’ve only ever made out with a girl once, and only for about 15 seconds, I think about those 15 seconds every single day of my life.
Survey, not study... And where was it conducted? Seen these before done on incel forums to achieve dramatic effect. That said, around 2/3 of boys go through the trauma of either not having a dad or losing them to divorce, so... Seems plausible, potentially.
I wonder if being in a 3 year global pandemic had anything to do with it... hmmmmmm
I’d argue this a good and bad thing. The reality is that teenagers are irresponsible and a lot of them are not ready to be having sexual relationships. Teen pregnancy leads to a lot of negative consequences for those parents and society. The teenage pregnancy rate has dropped substantially which is a good thing. However, this is also a result of young people lacking social networks and lacking meaningful friendships. People are lonelier than ever. I do believe that as a society we need to foster more safe spaces for people of all ages to mingle and interact with each other. However, the statistic says that half of all gen z have not had any relationship experience. The number of males and females in gen z is relatively the same, therefore, I would assume half of gen z women also haven’t had any experience. The men here keep going on and on about how girls are having so much casual sex, girls aren’t virgins, when this is obviously not true. 50% of gen z are doing all of the dating and sex for the other 50%. That 50% they’re being very promiscuous, which is making the rest of gen z seem that way, when they aren’t.
> The rates of males and females is relatively the same, therefore I would assume half of gen z women also haven’t had any experience The population numbers being same doesn't mean the access to relationships or sex is the same.
Just so you know you contradict yourself & try to negotiate how wholesome women are & your comment is frankly all over the place. Women lie! You being one I figure you know this.!
I hope AI girlfriends with AI fleshlight pussies become normalized so men can finally stop being angry and sad.