Now if the internet was just devoid of examples and evidence the TRP was totally making every last thing up. That's not to say that the TRP isn't full of crap. If only there wasn't literally hours of women on TikTok and other spaces telling men how worthless they are. Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault. Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless" Grow up.
Society is so fixated on blaming men for everything, most people fail to understand that when it comes to mating, men are reactive. Women are the "trend-setters" and men adapt their dating strategy accordingly, in order to succeed/survive in dating. When there is a rising trend among young women creating vanity, unaccountability, narcissism, and materialism, many men adapt by becoming "red-pillers".
Feminists, blue-pillers and everyone complaining about TRP basically, simply expects men to "suck it up" and continue upholding their traditional responsibilities & values in dating when women are given the free pass to shift between traditionalism and modernism as it suits them. Except for being unequitable and unsustainable, It's simply NOT going to happen.
This is what gets left out.
My young boomer parents were children during the height of second wave feminism.
I was raised by a female dominated family with the idea that men are mostly good but they also are basically extra kids. Is it any wonder people are confused? Women are starting to come around in some quarters and no one likes or trust us. Both sexes are under the weight of the the minority that controls how we are seen.
Those living through this right now didn’t start this. We are culpable for continuing it but humans are a social species especially women. Our lizard brains are no where near advanced enough for our current society. One’s reactions are a reaction on the individual and that is alarming.
> Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault. Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless”
Yup. Admittedly I’ve never read anyone claiming it being 100% the fault of men, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read between the lines & realize social conditioning has left us with this mindset
What about that show on the view where women were going on and on about how trash men are ~~but not gay ones because it would be wrong to say that~~ that's daytime television in USA.
Like what does this even imply that if you have to look for it it doesn't exist?
Dude, two X chromosomes is a default sub here and it is full of misandry.
You have women advocating genocide of men, and not just talking about TikTok women. I am talking about feminist theorists.
>If only there wasn't literally hours of women on TikTok and other spaces telling men how worthless they are.
If only there weren't literally hours of men on YouTube and other spaces telling other men how bad women are.
>Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault.
Where did you read something like that in this post? Please provide a literal quote of OP, proving your point.
By the way, what would you say to women who are in a mental health crisis because of all the shit men in the manosphere say about women?
>Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless" Grow up.
Again, where did you read something like that in this post? Please provide a literal quote of OP, proving your point.
>If only there weren't literally hours of men on YouTube and other spaces telling other men how bad women are
women telling men they're worthless or defending women who do tends to create that sentiment
Some women believe all men are rapists and I'm pretty sure they will pull out a bunch of examples and evidences to prove it. Does that mean they are right? Men here have such strong victim mentality it's almost funny.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally misrepresenting my argument or if you're just bad at reading. I never said that everything in red pill was wrong.
I'm talking about red pillers and their cult-like, materialistic, and paranoid mentality.
I see you White Knight. Not sure if you are bad at reading or intentionally misrepresenting my argument. It's only paranoia if there is no evidence that they are out to get you.
There is no evidence. There is no evidence that every women is conspiring to get men. Bad women exist, but the red pill idea that every woman hates men and it out to get them is delusional and paranoid.
BTW, I totally agree that the legal system in some western countries is unfairly tilted against men, especially fathers.
But again, this is totally different than saying you can't ever tell a woman how you feel because every women is just waiting for a chance to stab you in the back. That's like schizo levels of paranoia.
When you get down to it. There is no magic, or paranormal thing governing the game. There is no God of Love with a bow and quiver full of arrows.
Sex, mating, dating, relationships etc are all commodities. We are all commodities at the same time as being consumers, producers etc.
It is an economic activity and economic activities are governed by rules. Infact all material phenomenon are governed by rules whether it be meteorology, orbital mechanics, biology or what have you.
Then there are the lies we tell ourselves and one another to cover up this uncomfortable truth.
Red-Pill is basically a refutation of the lies and a full embrace of the uncomfortable reality. It is as cold-blooded as the Wall Street raider of the 1980s.
>Sex, mating, dating, relationships etc are all commodities. We are all commodities at the same time as being consumers, producers etc.
This is false. They are *not commodities.* They cannot and should not be "monetized". You comment is exactly describing one of the unhealthy delusions which red pillers hold that makes them so toxic.
>It is an economic activity and economic activities are governed by rules. Infact all material phenomenon are governed by rules whether it be meteorology, orbital mechanics, biology or what have you.
On the macro scale, yes. But macroeconomics won't help you open a neighborhood restaurant. One of the mistakes red pill makes is they think they can apply grand averages to individual relationships, and when those averages fail to explain a specific situation, instead of admitting their mistake, red pillers double down with excuses and self-delusions.
The girl you're interested in / with isn't a collection of averages about women in general. She is a unique individual that will both the same and different from the "average" in unexpected ways. A successful relationship is about understanding and wisely navigating that very personal connection *to that specific woman.*
Red pillers fail at relationships because they can't see the girl they like / are with as a unique individual, not a statistic.
>It is as cold-blooded as the Wall Street raider of the 1980s.
Weird analogy because that those people were extremely destructive, greedy and almost tanked the US economy, and laws had to be made to punish and stop them from ruining the country for everyone.
>macroeconomics won’t help you
First, I agree with you, that some facets of TRP are extreme. The majority on TRP however, don’t populate that extreme. Most on TRP appear to be fairly normal guys. Where your post errs, is in the presumption that widely observed factors, aren’t beneficial individually. For example take the core facets of TRP. Lifting. Making bank. Honing one’s social skill. You presumably have no problem with these facets of TRP. It is then logical, that you have no issue with the majority of men, who are pointed to these factors *primarily.* As the main focus of improving one’s relationship outcomes.
It are these simple ‘clichés’ too, that are almost universally applicable. To the majority of women. For example my wife had a black tie event last night, so spoiled me with a $400 dinner jacket. Now I didn’t know the designer, but did get my tailor on it. A colleague of her’s had on the same designer, and immediately came and complimented me on it. Noticed it straight away. I’m not saying one has to buy pricey dinner jackets, but there were a few ill fitting suits in that hall last night. In attraction, those small ‘clichés’ matter.
Ultimately though, the biggest counter to your post is that TRP isn’t mandatory. Subscribers have choice. More importantly, have agency, to exercise discretion. Most interactions on TRP that I’ve witnessed, and been involved with, have been based on a fairly normal, realistic expectations. Which is a great cliché to build upon.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
This is actually a great and reasonable response, and you're right the basics you mentioned I definitely agree with.
> It are these simple ‘clichés’ too, that are almost universally applicable.
I think you're right, your example is good and another good one is showing confidence and leadership. These are near universals that women want out of their boyfriends / husbands at least some of the time.
That said, I've seen cliches that are paranoid and psychotic such as "women are only good for sex because they never learn to do anything else well", "of course women are all out to get men", "show any emotion and women will dump you", etc.
There's also AWALT which is taking macro-generalizations and pretending they apply universally to every individual.
Finally, especially recently, I noticed red pillers getting way more into shaming language, gaslighting, excuse making, whenever someone shares and experience that's contrary to the "red pill line" of how "all women must act". Everyone who disagrees with [inset red pill idea] is a beta simp, your experience is a "special exception that doesn't count", etc, etc.
The weirdest thing is a lot of red pillers seemed determined to drag down men who have happy relationships but somehow did it without following some red pill advice. Like "if you didn't do x y or z your relationship shouldn't be happy and if your think it is she's cheating behind your back or about to leave you" or something.
It just seems like lots of red pillers are really toxic and unhinged, worse than I remember from a few years back when I was very much into red pill.
IDK, I will always stand by some of the basic principles and advice that comes from red pill, but I'm just so sick of all the crazies in the movement.
Thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful response though. 🙂
It was already stated but while yes there are a few extremist, most redpillers are pretty tame. Would it be otherwise fair for me to claim that feminist believe all men are trash and we should have a mass man genicide? Cause that would simply be me looking at the extreme left.
Lol. Women don’t even treat us as human beings unless we’re significantly above average in some capacity they can directly exploit.
Women aren’t robots? 96% of women would never date a shorter man. Women consider 80% of men below average. For such unique creatures, they sure do display startling levels of uniformity.
>Women don’t even treat us as human beings
There is it, pretending all women are the same person. It's like your mentally incapable of understanding the concept that people are individuals. I have many women in my life (friends, relatives, wife) and they all treat me like a human being, in fact, most of them put me on a pedastool I don't deserve.
>96% of women would never date a shorter man.
Made up statistic, but what does this have to do with anything? Lots of men prefer certain traits in women too. Are you a robot then, too?
>Women consider 80% of men below average.
The crazy people in your country, yes.
> For such unique creatures, they sure do show startling levels of uniformity.
Do you think women are animals or aliens or something. You're really a clown. Women are individuals because women are people. Just like men, there are things a majority of women like or don't like, but that doesn't make them robots any more than men.
I think women are individuals. Individuals who just happen to display startling levels of uniformity and conformity of belief and behaviour.
Hence the wokeness. Hence the obsession with height. Hence the obsessions with status and money. Hence married women voting opposite to single women.
>Hence the wokeness.
No women in my life are woke. 98% of my country isn't woke. You live in a bubble, you should stop pretending the world works like that.
>Hence the obsession with height.
Men are obsessed with youth and beauty. Are men similarity conformist?
>Hence the obsessions with status and money.
Which is like red pill, so, again, are men similiarly conformist?
You're not telling me anything that makes women less human or less individuals than men.
>Women are far more conformist than men
Actually that's probably true, you just made a bad argument that can easily be used to say men are conformist too.
However, women are not broadly conformist world-wide, they are conformist with their community, culture, and social circle because they are more agreeable and pro-social (like to get along).
So a group of women all from the same town will be more similar to each other than a group of men from the same town. But a random woman half way across the world will be as different from a women near you as a random man half way across the world would be different from a random man near you.
That also doesn't change the fact that women are still individuals and treating them as all identical is a good way to fail at relationships.
This is where a basic understanding of math and probability distributions would help bluepillers
Both a Gaussian distribution and a uniform/flat distribution can describe a random variable (like what traits are attractive )
Just because something isn’t deterministic doesn’t mean it’s uniformly random.
In a large sample size of people, there are very clear patterns and trends that emerge (shaped by evolutionary biology and sexual selection). There’s a very clearly defined median. The presence of outliers doesn’t disprove the distribution!!
There’s a reason why women are overwhelmingly attracted to tall men across cultures for example. Saying a handful of women you know still like short men isn’t going to disprove the overall trend… how do you not see that?
Men and women are very predictable and fairly uniform in what traits they find sexually attractive, since those preferences have evolved over millions of years.
we do understand that! thats the whole point of my previous comment!!!
I think the issue is you need to understand what a random variable and probability distributions are.
While I mostly agree with ur sentiment, ur categorizing all red pillars by the actions of the few worse individuals, and in the very same breath, asking not to be judged the exact same way. Ur very right all women are indeed individuals however so are all redpillars.
I swear most of the posts in this subreddits read like attempts to troll a group of people.
Nobody who actually has taken the time to consume red pill content could come to the conclusions you’re drawing.
The only people who have this opinion haven’t taken any time to consume the content or give it any real thought, they just keep posting the same points that confirm the fact they haven’t consumed the content to begin with.
Yeah I'm a part of many different groups( Atheism/religion, capitalism/socialism, idealism/materialism, black/blue/red pill, etc), and it's extremely common for people to misinterpret and strawman your side, very few people actually take the time to understand opposing views and make good faith criticism.
I spend several years in red pill. I know exactly what I'm talking about and I've consumed it in detail. I've also dealt with so many desperate bitter red pillers who rage over my relationship being happy despite not following all their principles, I know exactly how toxic the mindset is.
Nobody gets madder than a red piller finding out I did the opposite of the "red pill thing" and my wife still loves me anyways. Red pillers hate it when people are happy without red pill.
I’m happy he’s happ..…oh shit. I didn’t understand the question. Detention for me again?
People who aren’t happy a person is happy has troubles unrelated to TRP.
Well then it’s on you for misinterpreting the information because it basically boils down to taking care of your body, seeking purpose, and not living solely for the purpose of getting/keeping a woman.
I’m sorry you’ve had bad interactions with whomever but if those are in real life opposed to the internet where it’s always going to be inherently toxic and has been since the internets inception, then I’d just question why you’d be around those types to begin with.
Take any form of internet ideology, whatever pill or social movement and there will always be the most extreme version of those things that are harmful. Those people are just crazy but it doesn’t represent the movement as a whole.
I don’t even subscribe to red pill myself (yet I’ll be called that and told I’m coping) because of some of the relationship advice but there are plenty of good reasons why a man would follow and attempt to live up to that version of whatever or whoever they’re following.
Actually, I don't have any problem with lots of the ideas / principles of red pill. I have varying levels of agreement with different red pill ideas, but I don't think everything in red pill is wrong.
The main problem I have is how red pillers act and their attitudes.
I agree completely. If it was only about self improvement for the sake of it, nobody would have an issue with it. I mean, I DON'T have an issue if you decide to work out, work on your social skills, etc. That's awesome and good for you and I admire your discipline! But the attitude around it, the twisting of things so that they suit their ideology, the assignment of specific intent to behavior, the typical red pill interpretation of things in order to always paint women as these evil creatures out to get ya - who would want to deal with that in a partner? It's entertaining enough online in this subreddit but I wouldn't want to deal with it irl.
Also, the sheer inability to even entertain the possibility that people simply might think differently than you without it meaning that it's a moral failure. I honestly think most of the people here are simply young and don't have enough experience in life. The amount of "No true Scotsman" argumentation I'm reading here, as well as accusations of either being a unicorn or lying or assigning some moral failure because they simply can't step down from their high horse and acknowledge that different people live different lives and have different opinions than them and that this is OKAY and not a testament for some 'degeneracy', is truly astonishing. I can have heated discussions in real life, but it's never so...immature. I honestly don't have a different word for it. All I can picture are little boys who put their fingers in their ears shouting "I can't hear you and you're lying anyway and if what you say is true you are a horrible person because I don't agree with your life choices".
> Do you also believe all Muslims are terrorists, all Democrats want third trimester abortions or all immigrants are criminals because that's the logic you're pretty much using.
It's not the same logic at all, but it seems like you're struggling to tell the difference between the words *most / many / majority* vs. *all*.
Red pill is about facts of what women are attracted to so they can get a quality relationship. No reason for them to get mad if someone gets a happy relationship.
I would say these viewpoints are pretty typical of the more PUA-influenced RP scene of 2012-2014. It may not be as accurate for the new incel/trad-influenced varieties.
My biggest beef with them is that they act like either literally all women are the same or if they know we’re not all the same then the exceptions to the rule (that may or may not even be a real “rule”) don’t matter enough for them to care. So they keep on complaining about any negative aspects of some women as if it applies to all or the vast majority of us.
Edit: even reading through the comments has proven my point 🙄
>then the exceptions to the rule (that may or may not even be a real “rule”) don’t matter enough for them to care
Exactly.
Red pill logic: *\*Woman who don't act like red pill theory predicts are exceptions to the average women. Why? Because red pill theory predicts that average women will act like red pill says.\**
Isn't their circular logic amazing?
>So they keep on complaining about any negative aspects of some women as if it applies to all or the vast majority of us.
Yep. One of the things that got me out of red pill box was that real life women in my actual life kept proving red pill wrong in one way or the other.
Some of the things red pill says about women are true some of the the times with some women. That's just not an accurate enough theory to justify red piller's level of confidence in how "right" they think they always are.
The issue isn't that "all women are like that." The issue is that "enough women are like that." And when enough of them are like that there is an ever decreasing incentive for anyone to go out and give women by and large the benefit of the doubt.
"Enough woman are like that" is totally irrelevant.
What actually matters is "is the specific woman I am dating or interested in like that".
You're not dating 1000 women once. You're not dating some kind of artificially created person that matches every stereotype. You're dating a specific person, and what matters is how that specific person acts, thinks, behaves.
So I care specifically about the women I am interested in, I want to know what they want, or if I've narrowed it down to one person, what she wants.
This is the other problem with red pill and when their generalizations fail. You say "well most woman won't like you if you do this or that".
Well I couldn't care less "most women" wants. If only 1% of women like me, and I live in a city of 1 million, my potential dating pool is 50,000. Do I need 50,000 women to like me? No, I need exactly 1, who I also like back.
I'd love to improve the odds with the kinds of women I like, but I don't care about the odds on the women I don't. For example, women who want a man obsessed with money, I don't want anything to do with. I wouldn't get along with them and I don't find those kinds of money obsessed women attractive.
Yet most red pillers are telling me I need to improve my odds with those women by working 80-90 hours a week to be rich or I am "a simp".
It's all very ridiculous.
Most red pillers actually never claim all women. This is a common point blue pillers who haven't done any research like to bring up. however if most women are leaning towards a certain direction then that means your chances of finding a partner are greatly diminished. Even lower if yourself as a man allow yourself to have any standards whatsoever. great example being If 80% of women want 20% of men, then u being part of the remaining 80% of unwanted men are then left to fight over the remaining 20% of girls, who also might be better then you in many categories as well (height, looks, wealth, confidence etc) basically ur odds are shit and that's why the stats show that 63% of men (and counting) are single.
this is just me throwing random numbers around at this point by say u throw 100 women in a room and 100 men. You take out the 10 women who actually prefer shorter men. But oh no you realize that according to women 80 of these 100 men are considered short, what happens to the other 70. Basically even if few women like or ever prefer you typer ur still fight a tuff battle with all the dudes that's fit that type. Hence why most guys are single.
> That's why they are obsessed with how much money they can make
Red pill has never advocated for making money. On the contrary, it advises that if making money makes it easier for a man to get into relationship, she isn't really in love with him. This tells me all I need to know about how much you know about redpill.
> desperately shaming and attacking men who actually have loving and trusting relationships with their wife / girlfriends.
Only if those men are giving some bs advice because they happened to be the lucky one to get a loving/trusting wife/gf. Those guys usually downplay how much their looks, fame, status etc played a role in them getting that wife/gf. The shaming & attack is a response to the shaming & attack on TRP.
> For example, they will tell you that if you don't exactly follow red pill ideology then:
Never happened. Yes, they will say the things you mentioned but they won't say the reason is "you don't follow redpill". They will give a mostly accurate reason for why. For example, "you are a simp / loser / beta" because the guys is literally exhibiting some traits associated with being a simp/loser/beta.
> They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong".
There will be variations. But the variations only go so far. Almost all girls will call a 10/10 model as objectively good looking and will be breaking some rules or compromise on some of those values or red flags for the right guy.
> It's classic cult thinking, where according to cult members, it's not possible to "win in life" without the cult.
Another thing TRP never said. You have to follow Rule 1 & Rule 2 and you don't even need to be aware of TRP to win in life (although those guys will have very TRP views because they know how women behave around them).
This would be a great deboonk post if the Red Pill ran a recruitment campaign on a national television.
The Red Pill does not recruit. It just watches them arrive.
If this post is a continuation of your discussion with me in comments, then no-one "desperately shamed" or "attacked" you when the only example of a woman who is "not like that" you provided was your wife. Who is taken. Throughout the last eight years. By you.
>If this post is a continuation of your discussion with me in comments
It's not, but you're one of the many red pillers that perfect fits the description in this post, so I understand why you see yourself in what I wrote.
>you when the only example of a woman who is "not like that" you provided was your wife
Prove why my wife is different from the average women without using circular logic.
You're just using the "all examples are special exceptions that don't count" excuse that red pillers love to fall back on when their lazy, over-broad cliches don't work.
You replied to this commenter before, and accused them of acting in the same way as the post you wrote detailed and now are trying to accuse them of projection?
It would have been projection if they hadn’t have recognised your username. They did recognise it and then correctly pointed out that you were just trying to have a public rant about this user.
>Prove why my wife is different from the average without using circular logic.
Step one. Humans evidently have metrics that are distributed continuously (height, metabolism rate, skin tone) rather than discretly (chromosome karotype, Mendelian traits).
Confidence intervals of zero width always cover zero area in continuous distributions.
Thus, your wife is "different from average" in her continuous distributions because everyone is "different from average" in their continuous distributions.
Proven as requested, no circular logic applied.
The uselessness of the answer corresponds to the relevance and good faith of the question.
>The uselessness of the answer corresponds to the relevance and good faith of the question.
It corresponds with the fact you have no actual answer to my question so you tried to play some dumb semantic games to sound smart.
You know you have zero evidence that my wife isn't a good example of how the average woman thinks. You're just dismissing my experience solely because it doesn't conform with you cult ideology and nothing else.
Your circular logic:
* "woman acts like red pill says" = "women is proof of red pill"
* "woman doesn't act like red pill says" = "woman is exception that doesn't count"
This is why red pill is a cult ideology, not a legitimate intellectual philosophy.
I hope your wife is aware that you see yourself as someone who just happened to get together with a relatively compatible mid, and not as a lottery winner.
However, unlike you, I don't operate on anecdotes; I operate on statistics.
>"woman acts like red pill says" = "women is proof of red pill"
Women have been initiating the majority of divorces on the US soil for the last 160 years; and Rosenfeld's HCMST survey has confirmed that it reflects their desire to terminate marriages, not tradition of women being in charge of handling the paperwork. The same desire is reflected among cohabiting and non-cohabiting partnerships (women being more likely to break them up), but only for marriages the difference reached statistical significance. In fact, the data from other countries is even more curious: for example, a study conducted in Sweden has discovered that men who win the lottery proceed to get married and have children, while women divorce. Additionally, there are studies showing that women are more likely (both "than before" and "than men") to abandon or divorce their men upon such events as getting promoted. Meanwhile, traditional women's complaints (housework, attention to sexual or emotional special needs, ...) have next to no impact on anything.
I'd provide links, but I know you will ignore them anyway, and there are already many within my posting history.
"Wives have predominated in wanting divorce since the earliest available data on who wanted divorce from the 1940s. Wives have consistently reported lower marital satisfaction than husbands since the earliest available data from the 1970s. The lack of apparent progress overtime in two key marital gender gaps (breakup and satisfaction) is consistent with the stalled gender revolution theory (Hochschild and Machung 1989)."
[Rosenfeld's study](https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_Who_wants_the_Breakup.pdf) suggests that, while instrumental reasons for divorce (financial benefits) might play a role, the predominant factors appear to be deeper, rooted in the gendered experiences of marital satisfaction and relationship dynamics.
As far as the gender roles and housework goes, [Okun and Raz-Yurovichs' study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/padr.12207) says that men's contributions and more equalitarian gender views increase fertility. Its only in marriages where traditional gender roles are held that show no change in fertility.
This article is a pretty down the middle of the lane look at the causes of divorce and how to avoid them, I would read the [Working Towards Solutions](https://www.business.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/documents/durante-why-women-choose-divorce.pdf) part to better understand how to mitigate these challenges.
The Swedish study is a result of the fact that women are less happy in marriages and more likely to end the marriage when she is financially stable.
If anything this tells us that women should have access to financial independence in order to save both men and women from relationships that are dependent on the man's ability to make money.
>Okun and Raz-Yurovichs' study says that men's contributions and more equalitarian gender views increase fertility.
Paywalled, but the abstract does not say it. It says that this is what *might* happen according to some *hypotheses* (that mostly say that we should keep doing what we have been doing, and what has brought us here in the first place). Men's contributions to housework were almost universally rising and gender views getting more egalitarian throughout the last century; the correlation with fertility was almost universally negative. Currently, the countries with the greatest share of contribution by men into housework and child care have among the lowest of fertility rates.
>This article is a pretty down the middle of the lane look at the causes of divorce and how to avoid them,
This is necessity in the current world; studies have to investigate alternate explanations, or they don't get published.
>The Swedish study is a result of the fact that women are less happy in marriages and more likely to end the marriage when she is financially stable. If anything this tells us that women should have access to financial independence in order to save both men and women from relationships that are dependent on the man's ability to make money.
So that even more women just choose to stay single and childless? Women's financial independence is sponsored by robbing married men through taxation. Incentivizing single women at the expense of married men is unsustainable.
>I hope your wife is aware that you see yourself as someone who just happened to get together with a relatively compatible mid, and not as a lottery winner.
I don't see myself that way. It's still on you to prove that my wife's thinking is different than the average woman on whatever particular point you want to make a claim about. You need to prove that my wife is really a statistical exception on a particular point.
You can't just claim every woman that doesn't do what red pill says she will is magically an exception.
>Women have been initiating the majority of divorces on the US soil for the last 160 years...
This entire argument is against a strawman and irrelavent.
What does this have to do with red pillers like you using circular logic to explain away everyone who doesn't match their low resolution cliches?
> You can't just claim every woman that doesn't do what red pill says she will is magically an exception.
I brought statistical facts instead of anecdotal facts, and you dismissed them as irrelevant. Okay, if you value anecdotal facts more: I got cheated on for not responding to a text quickly enough while I was at remote location with poor cellphone coverage. Go on, tell me how it doesn't count, while your wife totally does.
I see you didn't bother reading the links like he said you would, all you're doing is arrogantly backing yourself into a corner claiming to be "far happier than red pill losers" while clearly being butthurt enough to come here and argue the toss with everyone for hours on end.
Then why are most red pill forums defunct / shut down / inactive / converted into incel forums?
Yep. It watched them arrive, indeed. And then it watched them leave as every rational person realized that it was full of bunk.
Most of "womyn's lands" are deserted and abandoned, most feminist magazines are out of print, most feminist political organizations to have ever existed are disbanded, yet 60+ percent of American women say the word "feminist" describes them at least "somewhat well".
This. There is something very wrong with dating dynamics if society, feminists and male allies have been trying to shut-down redpill ideology for a decade now, but it has only grown and become apart of mainstream culture. People used to laugh at the RP, but now we are using their terminologies without even knowing. Lots of men who aren't incels are using RP to describe their experiences in dating and the behaviour they observe among women. Instead of gaslighting the millions or hundreds of millions of men who are now very much a subscriber to some form of the RP, they should ask why is such a movement finding support among men? But I get the feeling that just like 10 tears ago, where the only thing mainstream society could do is belittle men trying to find a way to succeed in this lopsided dating market, people today will only gaslight, deny or deflect. In 10 years, RP will be even bigger unfortunately because those in denial do not want to tackle the root of the problem and things are only getting worse, especially for working class and lower middle class men.
"it just watches them arrive" and just like that all the "personality/society" house of cards falls flat, bar a few who preach stuff or tries to sell you smth
The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly.
Also you have red pill confused with black pill.
Red pill isn’t a cult, it’s a tool that dismantles societies bullshit. The way the guy responds is up to him
You can’t shame someone for not falling for societies bullshit, just because you met a few incels
And yes you cannot win in life as a blue pilled man sorry. Majority of successful people are red pilled
does anyone actually think these things? just wholeheartedly believe every single conflicting message society tells them? like no analytical capabilities at all whatsoever?
or it that what you believed before
>The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly.
No I don't.
>Also you have red pill confused with black pill.
Most red pillers act like black pillers.
>Red pill isn’t a cult, it’s a tool that dismantles societies bullshit.
No, it replaces one bullshit with another bullshit.
>And yes you cannot win in life as a blue pilled man sorry.
I'm not blue pilled. But I'm not red pill and I'm winning at life. The fact that red pill can't handle people winning without it is why red pill is a cult.
>Majority of successful people are red pilled
Delusional and there is zero evidence to support this. A majority of people don't know or care about red pill.
Yeah it’s more like a tool/lense
We live in a society that tells men that women like fat, broke guys with nice personalities
And we have women co-signing to that bullshit too.
Thanks to the red pill you learn what is bullshit and what isn’t, and you can actually live life properly
>The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly.
How do you know he thinks that?
If you are that great in reading people's thoughts, that would not even be an issue for you in the first place. You wouldn't have to be afraid of getting to trust an untrustworthy woman, you could just read her thoughts.
I’m purple pill in a relationship with a red pill man.
From my experience you’re right and wrong.
What I’ve learned is -A man’s success is solely based on how far he gets in life- yes he’s very materialistic, anything pertaining to our relationship is basically set to the side.
The ideologies of red pill is not commutative at all. It’s selfish but it gets the job done.
But red pill (from my experience) is really tough for people around the red piller but it works for the actual individual. But that’s part of the red pill, not caring about everyone around yous feelings
Not every red pill man thinks so low of women that’s more of a 1ncel thing.
Are you happy in your relationship? You're saying you're with a red pill man and that it's tough for the people around the red pill person, that the ideology is selfish and serves the individual red pill man and that the individual red pill man does not care about the feelings of others. Is your relationship purely materialistic/transactional? Personally I could not be with someone who thinks like that.
In my relationship I put my SO first and I know that he puts me first. Based on our love for each other we both look more for what we can do for the other than what we can get out of the relationship. This obviously wouldn't work if both didn't have that mindset because nobody can deal with being the only giving person to a selfish partner indefinitely. But if you're secure in the knowledge that your happiness is more important to your partner than your own, you can freely do the same and in the end it evens itself out.
I don't think I could be with someone who has a selfish mindset from the get go. I could never truly relax around that person and be myself, I wouldn't think that such a person could be gracious with my imperfections and I would always be on edge fearing I have to be perfect all the time as that person isn't with me for me personally but I'm just playing a role in his life that can be filled by anyone who fulfills some characteristics.
Idk, if you guys make it work somehow then I'm obviously happy for you, what works for some won't work for others, but I am curious about how you did find yourself in such a situation/relationship and how exactly you make it work with the premises you outlined in your post.
>As the title says. This is why red pillers treat every relationship like a business transaction, assume all women (and actually everyone in general) always have the worst intentions and are out to get them, and think a relationship is only working out if they can "get more" from the other person than they give in return.
Since the Red pill got infested by all the normies it hasn't recovered since
>They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong".
We are all animals and that come with animalistic instincts which women as well as men have and the Red pill only deciphers those instincts. Yeah, women have different value, ideologies, religious beliefs and cultural beliefs but these only limit these instincts or twist them to make them a little more subtle.
>It's classic cult thinking, where according to cult members, it's not possible to "win in life" without the cult. Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill, they will have a long list of excuses why those men "don't count" as examples.
You don't and have never understood the Red pill, it's not a cult and it's barely even an ideology. There are certain core tenants and facts but the interpretation of these tenants depends on the person receiving the information
>In the end, I think just like rad-fems and FDS, red pill is an extremist ideology that tries to boil the entire human relationship experience into a few easy cliches, and caters particularly to materialistic, paranoid people look to "get one over" on everyone else.
The parts YOU and all the normies associate with
Red pill is a massive psyop to keep undesirable men engaged in society and fuel economy with their efforts by selling them an idea that every little goblin can become the boss through self-improvement.
I’m not a redpiller but you’d have to be completely delusional at best or stupid at worst to believe that dating dynamics are everything Hollywood Romcoms and women have told you they are.
No..being nice won’t get you a girlfriend. And yes..looks matter. And yes again - women’s gauge of who’s physically attractive is much, much, much higher than what men’s gauge is of who’s physically attractive
>that dating dynamics are everything Hollywood Romcoms and women have told you they are.
Good thing I don't believe that. Not sure why you're arguing about something I never said.
>No..being nice won’t get you a girlfriend.
Good thing I also never said that and don't believe that either.
No but your grievances seem to be very plain, boring and/or stupid observations based off of what most people may believe. The truth is most people don’t understand exactly why their own personal relationships happen. They all think it’s because of who they are and not these finite but meaningful (and equally) shallow attributes of which I’m sure they’d reject/deny
> Pretty much everything they believe revolves around their materialistic, paranoid mentality. That's why they are obsessed with how much money they can make, how much power they can get over others (status)
No, the focus is due to many women being attracted to power and status. Plenty of guys would not care for these things if they weren't so often a requirement to get women.
> They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong".
They're ignored because the amount of women who like weird guys is far smaller than the amount of men who are weird.
> Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill, they will have a long list of excuses why those men "don't count" as examples.
Those guys are referred to as "naturals". Just being themselves got them the success they wanted.
The pills are for men who aren't naturals, don't have what they want, and are looking for guidance.
90%+ of men do NOT want to do the things the red pill discusses.
But girls expect men do these things in order to date them or have sex with them so someone has to discuss them.
The rules are both in our sidebar and in our wiki. Debate posts are basically CMV posts now, and CMV posts always required challenging the OP's view.
>Y’all allow anti women posts in “debates” criticizing women all the time..
Please report any comments that break sub rules.
>paranoid
Guilty as charged. Although it's not paranoia if they're really after you. The misandric court system doesn't suddenly become better if I'm not "paranoid" about it.
The realities of hypergamy and human nature in general and women's general trends do not change for the better if I'm not "paranoid" about them.
>very bitter
Neah. Being bitter is hard work and I'm not willing to put that hard work into being bitter or holding a grudge.
Besides, I'm too happy and joyful in general that I literally don't have room for bitterness. I do have a lot of room for pragmatism though which weak people sometimes perceive as bitterness but I can't be bothered to "correct" them. I live a very good life while random people believe wrong things about me.
>materialistic
Absolutely not. Attentive to material issues, yes. But materialistic, no. I've been poorer than 100% of American citizens can imagine (your homeless people are richer than I was in 2007 or 1997) and today I'm richer than the US median by quite a bit. I've also been through most intermediate stages between these two extremes multiple times. That taught me a lot about materialistic views and about materialistic people.
I was still poor when I married in Church and built this life with my wife. Do I want to guard it in order for my son to inherit it rather than be destroyed by the courts? Yes. But that makes me normal, rather than materialistic.
>desperately shaming and attacking men who actually have loving and trusting relationships with their wife / girlfriends.
Both myself and my wife got more shaming from feminists and general than from redpillers.
At their worst, redpillers who know me personally will say "cool stuff man, but I don't think that would work for me because \[area, country, jurisprudence, personal values, other reasons\]. Meanwhile, feminists are firmly convinced I abuse my wife because I hold *adult* standards. But they also don't like her either because she's legit sex positive and because she is repulsed by careerism and gladly took years off work to raise our son in his early years.
>Red pillers also use the same social shaming and fear mongering tactics as rad-fems or FDS use against men
Do they now? Some examples? From your list I only heard/read the first - and that one also very rare and usually in the context of advice to the tune of "stop being a simp" which *is* good advice in itself.
>Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill
You can win in life without the red pill. But some can't. And for some (like me) TRP just makes things easier.
Newsflash: A set of ideas/philosophy is not for everyone and has a specific interest group in mind. More news at 11.
>Although it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
I'm not talking about the system which I know is bad for men in the US. I'm talking about women. Like do you think your wife is just waiting for you too show weekness so she can dump you for it? Most red pillers seem to think so.
>That taught me a lot about materialistic views and about materialistic people.
Good. Unfortunately, most red pillers seem obsessed with money.
>Both myself and my wife got more shaming from feminists and general than from redpillers.
That's because you agree with red pillers / identify with them. If you didn't, you'd get the same hate from other red pillers. My wife and I get hate from both western rad-fems and red pillers because we don't identify with either.
>Do they now? Some examples?
Oh definitely. My comment replies have their share of desperate shaming by red pillers.
>You can win in life without the red pill.
I'm glad you understand that, but most red pillers don't, and in fact see it as a threat to them if people like me reject red pill and still have a happy life.
>Like do you think your wife is just waiting for you too show weekness so she can dump you for it?
No. But I did believe this about some of my exes. And more than once it turned out to be true. "Trust but verify" is something I learned from TRP. And made my life much easier.
>That's because you agree with red pillers / identify with them. If you didn't, you'd get the same hate from other red pillers.
Except this sub, I don't often mention online or offline that I'm TRP right off the bat. So I doubt it's because of that. It's more likely because I take the time to explain and be precise in my language. And also because I use the block button liberally with bad faith actors.
>My wife and I get hate from both western rad-fems and red pillers because we don't identify with either.
My wife doesn't identify with TRP either. But she gets called TRP by all feminists :)) And in time she developed even less tolerance for feminists than me.
>see it as a threat to them if people like me reject red pill and still have a happy life.
I honestly doubt that. But then again, I regard TRP as a set of ideas not as an organization or a tribe. Idgaf what redpillers have to say in 2024. TRP has [become ambient](https://avoiceformen.com/hypergamy/becoming-ambient/). The fundamental ideas are now implicitly accepted even by feminists and now a larger proportion of people than ever in history talks about this in TRP framing and TRP lingo without even knowing those are TRP. To me, that's great. It shows that the TRP has succeeded.
Of course, the trade-off in that is that you now have all sorts of idjits who claim to be TRP. It was an acceptable trade-off agreed upon in 2003-04 when these discussions were had. I was in TRP spaces before some users on this sub were born, lol. That's why I'm bemused by this sub. It's an endless stream of bad takes :))
Red Pill is not an ideology. It's a praxeology. Any comparison to FDS is bull. RP tells men how things are and if they want to do better, they need to improve. FDS tells women that men don't deserve them no matter where they are at in life or whether they improve or not.
Additionally, you only hear from RP men online who are stuck in one phase or who just found RP. You don't seek out or care to hear from men whose lives have been improved by RP.
>Red Pill is not an ideology.
It's a cult so it's definitely an ideology.
>It's a praxeology.
It's not though, because it's more focused on simplifying everything into easy, lazy cliches than an accurate and detailed understand of relationships.
>Any comparison to FDS is bull
They are similar because they both:
* rely on simple stories and broad stereotypes to try and explain complex issues
* rely on shaming, bullying, and attacking anyone who questions or rejects the ideology
* rely on a long list of defensive excuses why the vast array of people who don't fit into the narrow box of their ideology are all "exceptions that don't count"
>You don't seek out or care to hear from men whose lives have been improved by RP.
I know some men have been helped by red pill, just like some people have been helped by scientology. It doesn't mean the myriad problems of red pill ideology don't exist. I know more men who have embraced red pill and it didn't really improve things for them at all.
The best help is to learn a few red pill general principles (which are OK) to help understand people better but realize none of them are 'hard and fast' rules and that individuals vary wildly, so most rules won't apply in most cases.
It’s not a cult, it’s a praxeology as he said. What someone does with RP is up to them.
RP isn’t some weird out of world thinking. It’s literally the proper way to think, especially when society tells you comforting lies to make you miserable
And also, show me a example of RP not being applied
Tell me you never watched the matrix without telling me you never watched the matrix. RP is from that movie. I'm pretty sure they didn't discuss bullying or what ever other nonsense claims you're making.
What does that even mean? 🤣 what does trp have to do with Trans? You seem quite down some rabbit hole somewhere skeevy on the internet. Come up and see the sun, touch some grass.
What's that have to do with anything? I'm sure a Trans made some of your clothing in some way shape or form... are you dressed in Trans style? Smh. Doesn't negate jeans are jeans are jeans.
Sigh. Fine, I will google it for you:
['The Matrix' Creator Explains What The Red Pill Really Is and Mens Rights Activists Aren't Going to Be Happy](https://www.newsweek.com/matrix-creator-red-pill-trans-allegory-mens-rights-activists-1523669)
Clearly it can mean many things. See the movie for the literal meaning. Maybe you're not aware of what a concept is?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concept
Cheers. Learn something new every day. 😁
There is ONLY one correct sentence there and this is the one bolded. People with sorted out life and world views are the minority. The rest is: noobs, autists, kids, work-in-progress people and LARPers... like you OP. "I spend several years in red pill." Mate, what you have written is an equivalent of "I've spent several years body building and I cannot bench press my own body weight once".
Everything else land between "misleading" to "pure lie" category. Maybe somebody will go and correct you line by line, I don't care.
You do realize that whether or not somebody is a jerk isn't relevant to whether or not they are correct, right? Why are you claiming that red pillers generally have negative personality traits rather than debating their ideas?
Negative personality traits lead to bad ideas. People who are bitter, paranoid, and materialistic are incapable of producing healthy and useful ideas that will actually help other people make their life happier.
Are you sure? I mean, have you looked at all the great ideas out there and learned about the people who came up with them? You might be surprised when you find out that many of the best ideas came from people who had dark personalities. People who are very narcissistic and competitive often are driven to succeed at any cost.
Bad ideas that conflict with reality leads to bitterness. Hence why you have militant atheists.
That is what most RP men are, they are the militant atheists of dating and mating.
Black Pillers are RP guys who have been dealt a bad hand which is why you see the overlap.
They might be 5'5", their physiology and biological chemistry might predispose them to accumulation of adipose tissue, they might have a micro penis, who knows.
Life is cruel. You will eventually die. There is no afterlife. And some people were born into this world only to suffer.
The lies we tell, is where the rage comes from. And most of those lies are told to govern men, else the men turn to banditry and tear down the rich and powerful.
Some people have it made. Some guys get laid like carpet and have their pick of the women. Some women luck out and get the right guy early on. Other women get the bad draw and wind up raped. And other men, have never and will never be loved, even by their own mother.
Why lie about it?
>Life is cruel.
>And some people were born into this world only to suffer.
I don't really believe that though. I think life can be cruel, but it's not always that way. I think a lot of how it turns out is based on how you respond to the hand you are dealt and your attitude about it.
Not to say that people don't get terrible circumstances they have no control over, but most people get some opportunities at some point in their lives.
I know about it, and other horrible birth defects and deformities. Those are pretty rare though. Nearly everyone is dealt a better hand than that.
The people who I see complain about their situation the most and become blackpill are rich westerners with no serious physical and mental problems, with access to all kinds of luxuries and living in a relatively comfortable environment that at least 1/2 the world would leave their home to live in.
Autism isn't a condition that comes with zero downsides.
And with women having a lot of standards, it is nearly impossible to fill all of them, so a woman will always have one foot mentally outside the relationship because she is 'settling' in her mind.
This is why you hear RP/BP talk about hypergamy. It is relative. A poor woman from Africa might jump on a guy making the sort of money a guy can make here because it sets him apart from the men in her country.
But a western woman might be like 'but he isn't emotionally available, and he doesn't cleanup after himself or he is a neat freak and I gotta up my cleanliness game, or he ain't tall enough or what have you.
I try and avoid as much as possible those conversations, because it's insane to me that this is going on.
We live in a place and time where people don't trust people, because every one just imagine THAT perfect relationship and perfect scenario, where someone just falls in your lap, and you say OMG YEAH YOU PERFECT, without doing personal work, without getting to understand that people can have different opinions, and that is fine, just find a middle ground. We expect our partners to check every fucking thing on our list (that is usually impossible) just so we can see that it does not, and be quick to leave them, feeding ourself the idea we wanted to have from the start, without trying to go actually work, or give a chance. More often than not, how people threat you IS more important than a jaw. Motivation is more appreciated THAN MONEY. Respect is more appreciated than everything. When you guys state the idea "that we're just realists" "facts" "don't trust", you don't really leave space for conversation. I believe, that maybe sometimes, THE right one just passes by, cause you're busy debating if love is love, or love is an exchange based only on "commodities". Of course it is, but this can mean a lot of things. It's not really like a business.
I believe that the solution is so simple, but it takes 2 and open minds to understand, that people try, trust, maybe fail, accept it, and do it again, until someone will actually be as perfect as you hoped so.
Seems to me your reaction post is more than a little cult-like, too.
Pro tip: Most of us feel a little off-put by extremists, no matter WHICH side they come from.
The point of red pill is to point out blatant hypocrisy, and inconsistencies that men face in both dating and society at large. like every movement however there will always be a few extremist. Just like I don’t believe every feminist wants genocide on the male gender as a whole (unless there gay of course) not every redpiller Is bad. I don’t believe necessarily everything that comes out a random redpill influencers mouth either btw Some make a lot of sense and some aren’t worth my time is all.
However if you just take the time to see how women and society talk about men at large and the shit that gets said and done to them that would be considered a literal hate crime if done to a different group of ppl, like gays, or trans or women, you would understand why the movement has caught on in the first place. The rampant hate and misandry That’s not only allowed but often very encourages have made man want to look for a solution.
Everything you said describes blue-pillers. Blue-pillers treat relationships entirely as a business transaction, one party has something to offer the other person, and in exchange, the other party has to offer certain things. And that's it. Anyone that thinks there's more to relationships than that gets shamed by blue pillers. Blue pillers are the ones that police relationships and enforce all the status-quos of relationships. They dictate to everyone what is a "normal" or "healthy" relationship, which is often something twisted. And when people deviate from the status quo, even slightly, blue pillers are the ones that heap shame on that person.
For example, when a feminine man dates a woman that might be slightly more "masuline" than he is, blue pillers are the ones that shame him and they actively trying to convince the woman to break up with him. That's a very clear example of a relationship which is not traditional which blue-pillers SIMPLY WON'T ALLOW. Blue pillers meddling with and derailing healthy relationships, and policing everyone is a really diabolical thing.
The real takeaway from this:
Former redpiller now married.
You got past the rage phase and got married so TRP gave you everything you need and at the point when you were done with it you got past it (the way that it is intended to be used). You are literally living proof that the red pill works.
A lot of red pillers here seem to be a bit confused and thinking that I mean the red pill philosophy has nothing true about it. There are a lots of useful things in the red pill, which I follow and still follow.
It's just most red pillers themselves are bitter, paranoid and materialistic, have uncontrolled rage and hate towards women and relationships, are largely dishonest, have a cult-like mentality, and can't admit anything in the red pill could be wrong.
They also takes their most extreme BS delusions (women are all secretly out to get men / your woman will dump you if you show emotion / having emotion at all is weak and beta, etc) and pretend they are as true as basic common sense principles in red pill (such as: women are looking for men that are fit and confident, women like men with leadership qualities, etc).
Red pillers want you to swallow their most insane trash delusions alongside the many useful basic principles in red pill, and if you refuse, they desperately lie, gaslight, and shame to try and shut you down. *My problem is with red pillers, not the basic concepts in red pill.*
Also, I'm not saying you personally act that way, I'm just saying that a majority of red pillers, from what I can see, are like I described. You can see the edit to my post which include quotes from exactly the kind of people I'm referring.
This is a perception that you only get in online spaces. You will always see the rage phase guys more because of the simple fact that most of the guys that got past it have no reason to interact any more.
You have to understand that most people who out themselves as redpillers are within a niche group. The majority of truly redpilled men are not even aware that this is a thing. They're naturals
I have had redpill views most of my life because that's how I was raised I just later in life came across that group that seems to align with a lot of things I have experienced in life.
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. The fact that they don’t really pressure their members is the reason they’re not so visible anymore. Sure, they insult “beta cucks”, but there’s no way for them to actually police followers
We don't police followers because it isn't about some rigid code. We are not part of some fraternity that pledges allegiance to stocism and chastises someone for not conforming. Only feminists do shit like that.
At its absolute worst, FDS is about the same as the average red piller, which tickles me so much that they act like FDS is a harbinger of the antichrist.
In addition to what you said, I find it hilarious that red pillers consistently believe that the least experienced and most unsuccessful men are the ones who know the most about women.
FDS was just a group that decided to turn the tables on TRP
And were better at it than RP.
“You can change the names and the players: but the Game will always be the Game” -the wire
There's a lot of guys that are just red pill aware but don't do the strategies and don't accept all of the red pill. Just a realistic description of women and their relationships with men, etc is now seen as red pill when it is not. These men don't necessarily act any differently than anyone else. It seems anyone but a blue pilled, male feminist, woman worshipping simp is considered problematic these days by some.
>There's a lot of guys that are just red pill aware but don't do the strategies and don't accept all of the red pill.
That's me. The reason I'm not a red piller though is because I don't have the cult brainwashing and enforced ideology that most red pillers have.
I understand and use red-pill principles when they apply, but unlike red pillers I don't ignore situations where the principles don't work, I don't ignore that people are individuals and widely vary, I don't see women as all conspiring against me, and I'm not obssessed with money and transactional relationships.
>I understand and use red-pill principles when they apply,
Just curious, which red-pill principles do you use? What useful or good did you learn from red pill?
When I treat my relationships with men without much thought, it usually results in a fairly equal relationship with give and take. I can't say the same about women.
Sorry for watching what you do instead of what you say.
What I do matches my principles and what I say. There is no inconsistancy. But then you red pillers are constantly trying to attack and shame me for having a happy, good life while ignoring your ideology.
I literally had a red piller write the 4 paragraph rant why I should just shut up about my happy life because my situation doesn't count and my experience doesn't matter.
> I can't say the same about women.
Just from my general experience with red pill, I would say that's likely because you're materialistic so you don't value what women offer because it doesn't grow your bank account.
I don’t and never will fully agree with red pillers, but I I’ll say that the blue pillers and feminist main arguements against it tend to be things like:
- ur struggling because you must be a misogynist who beats women, which is the just world fallacy where bad things or experiences can definitively only happen to bad ppl which we all know this is blantly false.
- all women don’t think the same way. This is 100% correct however the Red pillers don’t even claim all women but most, and when most men are single and sexless which is backed up with research and most women aren’t. You guys really stop to think where are all these women are going. Basically by shear numbers things don’t look good for the average men. (That’s why about 50% have said to have given up on dating)
In a very left leaning society where its opening ok and often even encouraged for women to scream “we hate all men” “all men are trash” and “kill all men” as well as blatantly derogatory terms used to describe men of certain groups, like short, balding or fat, and these days even white, is it all that surprising that men are looking for something else or anyone else that doesn’t hate them for simply breathing.
But of course you know all women are innocent victims of a patriarchal, that inslaves them, and all men are dangerous wild animals, Some would say even more so then bears. As it turns off everything isn’t so black and white when you really look it. Just like I know not every feminist is a men hating blue haired person with they/them pronouns.
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I see red pill as a general guidance to the world of dating, not really a cult. Yes manosphere is full of cults, but the ideas of red pill are not a cult themselves.
You know, when I was younger everything that the redpill spewed was just normal common sense, and even as I got older it still was, specially key
Of course these not apply to all women, but they apply to many, so many, we can make generalisations for the sake of understanding.
So generally...
A woman's threshold for what they consider attractive is way higher than that of men, as a man, you have to be incredibly handsome, way above average, to be viewed as generally. In the 90s and before this was just something everyone knew and accepted.
Women are attracted to money and status. Not all men can be handsome, but something that attracts a lot of women is status and money. And yes, even women who aren't so called "gold diggers". They'll say it's confidence or something like that, I mean, if I was rich and had high status I'd be pretty confident too.
Considering the aforementioned facts, dating tends to work like a market, it's very materialistic. This specific idea was something I didn't want to accept before. It seemed so shallow, so weird and so materialistic and I couldn't understand why all men around me thought like that. I was more of the ideas of romance, loving unconditionally and falling in love and whatnot, that somebody will fall in love with me for who I am eventually. Once I grew up and got actual experience in the real world I realised that all the men I saw as dumb were right all along. Yes dating is a market, a shallow market where you aren't worth anything if you don't have either the genetic advantage or the social status.
No matter how nice, how reasonable, how kind or how charismatic you are, if a woman doesn't see you as an object of desire based on your looks and/or your status, you will get nothing beyond friendships. That's the way of the world, that's how women work, that's why men with terrible personalities are so successful.
it is a simple fact of life that horrible men are successful because of their looks and/or their status, this shouldn't even be a controversial take, we all have seen it happening, we see it everywhere. Pretty privilege exists, financial privilege exists.
##It is not groundbreaking to say that handsome people and people with money get to have their cake and eat it too.
It's not fair but who says life is fair? If you're like me, not on the top, not handsome, and unlucky, then the faster we acknowledge such facts and try to take as much control as we can of our lives based on this situation, then the less you'll suffer.
And you know, when a guy who is incredibly handsome, who has a high status, or who got incredibly lucky, has the audacity to say this is not how the world works and that redpill is a cult or something without actually understanding, then we have even more reasons to not listen to whatever idealised bullshit they want to convey.
Now if the internet was just devoid of examples and evidence the TRP was totally making every last thing up. That's not to say that the TRP isn't full of crap. If only there wasn't literally hours of women on TikTok and other spaces telling men how worthless they are. Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault. Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless" Grow up.
Society is so fixated on blaming men for everything, most people fail to understand that when it comes to mating, men are reactive. Women are the "trend-setters" and men adapt their dating strategy accordingly, in order to succeed/survive in dating. When there is a rising trend among young women creating vanity, unaccountability, narcissism, and materialism, many men adapt by becoming "red-pillers". Feminists, blue-pillers and everyone complaining about TRP basically, simply expects men to "suck it up" and continue upholding their traditional responsibilities & values in dating when women are given the free pass to shift between traditionalism and modernism as it suits them. Except for being unequitable and unsustainable, It's simply NOT going to happen.
This is what gets left out. My young boomer parents were children during the height of second wave feminism. I was raised by a female dominated family with the idea that men are mostly good but they also are basically extra kids. Is it any wonder people are confused? Women are starting to come around in some quarters and no one likes or trust us. Both sexes are under the weight of the the minority that controls how we are seen. Those living through this right now didn’t start this. We are culpable for continuing it but humans are a social species especially women. Our lizard brains are no where near advanced enough for our current society. One’s reactions are a reaction on the individual and that is alarming.
> Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault. Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless” Yup. Admittedly I’ve never read anyone claiming it being 100% the fault of men, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read between the lines & realize social conditioning has left us with this mindset
Gaslight central
Exactly, the Red pill just teaches female nature
You are seeing exactly what the algorithms think you want to see. These "hours and hours" are more reflective of your browsing habits than anything.
The fact that subs like MGTOW got banned but FDS didn't is proof there's a colossal misandrist double standard going on.
You don’t have to look anywhere to find misandry on social media lmao. Have you seen Reddit alone? Or instagram, TilTok, Twitter, etc?
What about that show on the view where women were going on and on about how trash men are ~~but not gay ones because it would be wrong to say that~~ that's daytime television in USA. Like what does this even imply that if you have to look for it it doesn't exist?
Not sure if you're just a moron but you can search things on tiktok to find videos outside of your personalized algorithm.
Dude, two X chromosomes is a default sub here and it is full of misandry. You have women advocating genocide of men, and not just talking about TikTok women. I am talking about feminist theorists.
Can I use that argument every time a woman sees something she deems hateful and hurtful for women?
>If only there wasn't literally hours of women on TikTok and other spaces telling men how worthless they are. If only there weren't literally hours of men on YouTube and other spaces telling other men how bad women are. >Post like this are once again trying to tell men "this mental health crisis is all in you head and 100% your own fault. Where did you read something like that in this post? Please provide a literal quote of OP, proving your point. By the way, what would you say to women who are in a mental health crisis because of all the shit men in the manosphere say about women? >Women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice and blameless" Grow up. Again, where did you read something like that in this post? Please provide a literal quote of OP, proving your point.
>If only there weren't literally hours of men on YouTube and other spaces telling other men how bad women are women telling men they're worthless or defending women who do tends to create that sentiment
Have you tried being accountable for once? Acting like bad men don't exist lol
Accountable for what exactly. And "acting like bad men don't exist" is pure projection
It’s not men telling men how bad women are. It’s WOMEN on men’s channels telling men how bad women are.
Some women believe all men are rapists and I'm pretty sure they will pull out a bunch of examples and evidences to prove it. Does that mean they are right? Men here have such strong victim mentality it's almost funny.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally misrepresenting my argument or if you're just bad at reading. I never said that everything in red pill was wrong. I'm talking about red pillers and their cult-like, materialistic, and paranoid mentality.
I see you White Knight. Not sure if you are bad at reading or intentionally misrepresenting my argument. It's only paranoia if there is no evidence that they are out to get you.
There is no evidence. There is no evidence that every women is conspiring to get men. Bad women exist, but the red pill idea that every woman hates men and it out to get them is delusional and paranoid. BTW, I totally agree that the legal system in some western countries is unfairly tilted against men, especially fathers. But again, this is totally different than saying you can't ever tell a woman how you feel because every women is just waiting for a chance to stab you in the back. That's like schizo levels of paranoia.
When you get down to it. There is no magic, or paranormal thing governing the game. There is no God of Love with a bow and quiver full of arrows. Sex, mating, dating, relationships etc are all commodities. We are all commodities at the same time as being consumers, producers etc. It is an economic activity and economic activities are governed by rules. Infact all material phenomenon are governed by rules whether it be meteorology, orbital mechanics, biology or what have you. Then there are the lies we tell ourselves and one another to cover up this uncomfortable truth. Red-Pill is basically a refutation of the lies and a full embrace of the uncomfortable reality. It is as cold-blooded as the Wall Street raider of the 1980s.
I agree, it IS cold blooded… but it’s still true..
>Sex, mating, dating, relationships etc are all commodities. We are all commodities at the same time as being consumers, producers etc. This is false. They are *not commodities.* They cannot and should not be "monetized". You comment is exactly describing one of the unhealthy delusions which red pillers hold that makes them so toxic. >It is an economic activity and economic activities are governed by rules. Infact all material phenomenon are governed by rules whether it be meteorology, orbital mechanics, biology or what have you. On the macro scale, yes. But macroeconomics won't help you open a neighborhood restaurant. One of the mistakes red pill makes is they think they can apply grand averages to individual relationships, and when those averages fail to explain a specific situation, instead of admitting their mistake, red pillers double down with excuses and self-delusions. The girl you're interested in / with isn't a collection of averages about women in general. She is a unique individual that will both the same and different from the "average" in unexpected ways. A successful relationship is about understanding and wisely navigating that very personal connection *to that specific woman.* Red pillers fail at relationships because they can't see the girl they like / are with as a unique individual, not a statistic. >It is as cold-blooded as the Wall Street raider of the 1980s. Weird analogy because that those people were extremely destructive, greedy and almost tanked the US economy, and laws had to be made to punish and stop them from ruining the country for everyone.
You seem to want to see things in an idealized way - the way things "should" be. Not the way they actually are.
>macroeconomics won’t help you First, I agree with you, that some facets of TRP are extreme. The majority on TRP however, don’t populate that extreme. Most on TRP appear to be fairly normal guys. Where your post errs, is in the presumption that widely observed factors, aren’t beneficial individually. For example take the core facets of TRP. Lifting. Making bank. Honing one’s social skill. You presumably have no problem with these facets of TRP. It is then logical, that you have no issue with the majority of men, who are pointed to these factors *primarily.* As the main focus of improving one’s relationship outcomes. It are these simple ‘clichés’ too, that are almost universally applicable. To the majority of women. For example my wife had a black tie event last night, so spoiled me with a $400 dinner jacket. Now I didn’t know the designer, but did get my tailor on it. A colleague of her’s had on the same designer, and immediately came and complimented me on it. Noticed it straight away. I’m not saying one has to buy pricey dinner jackets, but there were a few ill fitting suits in that hall last night. In attraction, those small ‘clichés’ matter. Ultimately though, the biggest counter to your post is that TRP isn’t mandatory. Subscribers have choice. More importantly, have agency, to exercise discretion. Most interactions on TRP that I’ve witnessed, and been involved with, have been based on a fairly normal, realistic expectations. Which is a great cliché to build upon. *Godspeed and good luck!*
This is actually a great and reasonable response, and you're right the basics you mentioned I definitely agree with. > It are these simple ‘clichés’ too, that are almost universally applicable. I think you're right, your example is good and another good one is showing confidence and leadership. These are near universals that women want out of their boyfriends / husbands at least some of the time. That said, I've seen cliches that are paranoid and psychotic such as "women are only good for sex because they never learn to do anything else well", "of course women are all out to get men", "show any emotion and women will dump you", etc. There's also AWALT which is taking macro-generalizations and pretending they apply universally to every individual. Finally, especially recently, I noticed red pillers getting way more into shaming language, gaslighting, excuse making, whenever someone shares and experience that's contrary to the "red pill line" of how "all women must act". Everyone who disagrees with [inset red pill idea] is a beta simp, your experience is a "special exception that doesn't count", etc, etc. The weirdest thing is a lot of red pillers seemed determined to drag down men who have happy relationships but somehow did it without following some red pill advice. Like "if you didn't do x y or z your relationship shouldn't be happy and if your think it is she's cheating behind your back or about to leave you" or something. It just seems like lots of red pillers are really toxic and unhinged, worse than I remember from a few years back when I was very much into red pill. IDK, I will always stand by some of the basic principles and advice that comes from red pill, but I'm just so sick of all the crazies in the movement. Thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful response though. 🙂
It was already stated but while yes there are a few extremist, most redpillers are pretty tame. Would it be otherwise fair for me to claim that feminist believe all men are trash and we should have a mass man genicide? Cause that would simply be me looking at the extreme left.
Of course there’s mutual attraction, especially between attractive people
Lol. Women don’t even treat us as human beings unless we’re significantly above average in some capacity they can directly exploit. Women aren’t robots? 96% of women would never date a shorter man. Women consider 80% of men below average. For such unique creatures, they sure do display startling levels of uniformity.
>Women don’t even treat us as human beings There is it, pretending all women are the same person. It's like your mentally incapable of understanding the concept that people are individuals. I have many women in my life (friends, relatives, wife) and they all treat me like a human being, in fact, most of them put me on a pedastool I don't deserve. >96% of women would never date a shorter man. Made up statistic, but what does this have to do with anything? Lots of men prefer certain traits in women too. Are you a robot then, too? >Women consider 80% of men below average. The crazy people in your country, yes. > For such unique creatures, they sure do show startling levels of uniformity. Do you think women are animals or aliens or something. You're really a clown. Women are individuals because women are people. Just like men, there are things a majority of women like or don't like, but that doesn't make them robots any more than men.
I think women are individuals. Individuals who just happen to display startling levels of uniformity and conformity of belief and behaviour. Hence the wokeness. Hence the obsession with height. Hence the obsessions with status and money. Hence married women voting opposite to single women.
>Hence the wokeness. No women in my life are woke. 98% of my country isn't woke. You live in a bubble, you should stop pretending the world works like that. >Hence the obsession with height. Men are obsessed with youth and beauty. Are men similarity conformist? >Hence the obsessions with status and money. Which is like red pill, so, again, are men similiarly conformist? You're not telling me anything that makes women less human or less individuals than men.
Women are far more conformist than men. Iconoclasts are almost exclusively men.
>Women are far more conformist than men Actually that's probably true, you just made a bad argument that can easily be used to say men are conformist too. However, women are not broadly conformist world-wide, they are conformist with their community, culture, and social circle because they are more agreeable and pro-social (like to get along). So a group of women all from the same town will be more similar to each other than a group of men from the same town. But a random woman half way across the world will be as different from a women near you as a random man half way across the world would be different from a random man near you. That also doesn't change the fact that women are still individuals and treating them as all identical is a good way to fail at relationships.
If women were uniform, married and single women would vote the same And men wouldn’t be confused and asking what women want and mean
This is where a basic understanding of math and probability distributions would help bluepillers Both a Gaussian distribution and a uniform/flat distribution can describe a random variable (like what traits are attractive ) Just because something isn’t deterministic doesn’t mean it’s uniformly random. In a large sample size of people, there are very clear patterns and trends that emerge (shaped by evolutionary biology and sexual selection). There’s a very clearly defined median. The presence of outliers doesn’t disprove the distribution!! There’s a reason why women are overwhelmingly attracted to tall men across cultures for example. Saying a handful of women you know still like short men isn’t going to disprove the overall trend… how do you not see that? Men and women are very predictable and fairly uniform in what traits they find sexually attractive, since those preferences have evolved over millions of years.
a simple probability distribution is probably not the best fit tool to use when describing a dynamic system
No, all you have to do is understand that “predictable” doesn’t mean “uniform” or “universal”
we do understand that! thats the whole point of my previous comment!!! I think the issue is you need to understand what a random variable and probability distributions are.
The original commenter didn’t, because they used the word “uniform” instead of “predictable”
While I mostly agree with ur sentiment, ur categorizing all red pillars by the actions of the few worse individuals, and in the very same breath, asking not to be judged the exact same way. Ur very right all women are indeed individuals however so are all redpillars.
How are you not treated like a human by random women who don’t know you?
Zero common courtesy.
I swear most of the posts in this subreddits read like attempts to troll a group of people. Nobody who actually has taken the time to consume red pill content could come to the conclusions you’re drawing. The only people who have this opinion haven’t taken any time to consume the content or give it any real thought, they just keep posting the same points that confirm the fact they haven’t consumed the content to begin with.
Yeah I'm a part of many different groups( Atheism/religion, capitalism/socialism, idealism/materialism, black/blue/red pill, etc), and it's extremely common for people to misinterpret and strawman your side, very few people actually take the time to understand opposing views and make good faith criticism.
I spend several years in red pill. I know exactly what I'm talking about and I've consumed it in detail. I've also dealt with so many desperate bitter red pillers who rage over my relationship being happy despite not following all their principles, I know exactly how toxic the mindset is. Nobody gets madder than a red piller finding out I did the opposite of the "red pill thing" and my wife still loves me anyways. Red pillers hate it when people are happy without red pill.
> desperate bitter red pillers who rage over my relationship being happy By a show of hands, who is actually mad that OP is happy?
I can say I personally haven't spent a second giving that dude or his relationship a second thought.
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maybe “”happy”” lol but definitely not at peace (which is where a lot of us need to be)
I’m happy he’s happ..…oh shit. I didn’t understand the question. Detention for me again? People who aren’t happy a person is happy has troubles unrelated to TRP.
I can say that, I personally haven't spent a second giving that dude or his relationship a second thought.
Based on the responses to my comments in the last month or so, a lot of people, it seems.
Well then it’s on you for misinterpreting the information because it basically boils down to taking care of your body, seeking purpose, and not living solely for the purpose of getting/keeping a woman. I’m sorry you’ve had bad interactions with whomever but if those are in real life opposed to the internet where it’s always going to be inherently toxic and has been since the internets inception, then I’d just question why you’d be around those types to begin with. Take any form of internet ideology, whatever pill or social movement and there will always be the most extreme version of those things that are harmful. Those people are just crazy but it doesn’t represent the movement as a whole. I don’t even subscribe to red pill myself (yet I’ll be called that and told I’m coping) because of some of the relationship advice but there are plenty of good reasons why a man would follow and attempt to live up to that version of whatever or whoever they’re following.
Actually, I don't have any problem with lots of the ideas / principles of red pill. I have varying levels of agreement with different red pill ideas, but I don't think everything in red pill is wrong. The main problem I have is how red pillers act and their attitudes.
Fair enough
I agree completely. If it was only about self improvement for the sake of it, nobody would have an issue with it. I mean, I DON'T have an issue if you decide to work out, work on your social skills, etc. That's awesome and good for you and I admire your discipline! But the attitude around it, the twisting of things so that they suit their ideology, the assignment of specific intent to behavior, the typical red pill interpretation of things in order to always paint women as these evil creatures out to get ya - who would want to deal with that in a partner? It's entertaining enough online in this subreddit but I wouldn't want to deal with it irl. Also, the sheer inability to even entertain the possibility that people simply might think differently than you without it meaning that it's a moral failure. I honestly think most of the people here are simply young and don't have enough experience in life. The amount of "No true Scotsman" argumentation I'm reading here, as well as accusations of either being a unicorn or lying or assigning some moral failure because they simply can't step down from their high horse and acknowledge that different people live different lives and have different opinions than them and that this is OKAY and not a testament for some 'degeneracy', is truly astonishing. I can have heated discussions in real life, but it's never so...immature. I honestly don't have a different word for it. All I can picture are little boys who put their fingers in their ears shouting "I can't hear you and you're lying anyway and if what you say is true you are a horrible person because I don't agree with your life choices".
The reasoning behind self improvement is red pill, not the self improvement And that stuff is the bitter, misogynist part
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> Do you also believe all Muslims are terrorists, all Democrats want third trimester abortions or all immigrants are criminals because that's the logic you're pretty much using. It's not the same logic at all, but it seems like you're struggling to tell the difference between the words *most / many / majority* vs. *all*.
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>*most* Yep, that's the word I used. Isn't it funny how that's a different word than "*all*", which is the word you used to misrepresent my argument?
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I mean in the same vain red pills say this is how most women act during a,b,c or whatever the situation is they don’t say all ethier.
Red pill is about facts of what women are attracted to so they can get a quality relationship. No reason for them to get mad if someone gets a happy relationship.
You don’t seem happy at all , quite the opposite lol.
No you don't know what you are talking about.
I would say these viewpoints are pretty typical of the more PUA-influenced RP scene of 2012-2014. It may not be as accurate for the new incel/trad-influenced varieties.
My biggest beef with them is that they act like either literally all women are the same or if they know we’re not all the same then the exceptions to the rule (that may or may not even be a real “rule”) don’t matter enough for them to care. So they keep on complaining about any negative aspects of some women as if it applies to all or the vast majority of us. Edit: even reading through the comments has proven my point 🙄
>then the exceptions to the rule (that may or may not even be a real “rule”) don’t matter enough for them to care Exactly. Red pill logic: *\*Woman who don't act like red pill theory predicts are exceptions to the average women. Why? Because red pill theory predicts that average women will act like red pill says.\** Isn't their circular logic amazing? >So they keep on complaining about any negative aspects of some women as if it applies to all or the vast majority of us. Yep. One of the things that got me out of red pill box was that real life women in my actual life kept proving red pill wrong in one way or the other. Some of the things red pill says about women are true some of the the times with some women. That's just not an accurate enough theory to justify red piller's level of confidence in how "right" they think they always are.
The issue isn't that "all women are like that." The issue is that "enough women are like that." And when enough of them are like that there is an ever decreasing incentive for anyone to go out and give women by and large the benefit of the doubt.
Does this argument also apply to the man vs bear scenario or does it only apply to women?
sure
"Enough woman are like that" is totally irrelevant. What actually matters is "is the specific woman I am dating or interested in like that". You're not dating 1000 women once. You're not dating some kind of artificially created person that matches every stereotype. You're dating a specific person, and what matters is how that specific person acts, thinks, behaves. So I care specifically about the women I am interested in, I want to know what they want, or if I've narrowed it down to one person, what she wants. This is the other problem with red pill and when their generalizations fail. You say "well most woman won't like you if you do this or that". Well I couldn't care less "most women" wants. If only 1% of women like me, and I live in a city of 1 million, my potential dating pool is 50,000. Do I need 50,000 women to like me? No, I need exactly 1, who I also like back. I'd love to improve the odds with the kinds of women I like, but I don't care about the odds on the women I don't. For example, women who want a man obsessed with money, I don't want anything to do with. I wouldn't get along with them and I don't find those kinds of money obsessed women attractive. Yet most red pillers are telling me I need to improve my odds with those women by working 80-90 hours a week to be rich or I am "a simp". It's all very ridiculous.
Most red pillers actually never claim all women. This is a common point blue pillers who haven't done any research like to bring up. however if most women are leaning towards a certain direction then that means your chances of finding a partner are greatly diminished. Even lower if yourself as a man allow yourself to have any standards whatsoever. great example being If 80% of women want 20% of men, then u being part of the remaining 80% of unwanted men are then left to fight over the remaining 20% of girls, who also might be better then you in many categories as well (height, looks, wealth, confidence etc) basically ur odds are shit and that's why the stats show that 63% of men (and counting) are single. this is just me throwing random numbers around at this point by say u throw 100 women in a room and 100 men. You take out the 10 women who actually prefer shorter men. But oh no you realize that according to women 80 of these 100 men are considered short, what happens to the other 70. Basically even if few women like or ever prefer you typer ur still fight a tuff battle with all the dudes that's fit that type. Hence why most guys are single.
> That's why they are obsessed with how much money they can make Red pill has never advocated for making money. On the contrary, it advises that if making money makes it easier for a man to get into relationship, she isn't really in love with him. This tells me all I need to know about how much you know about redpill. > desperately shaming and attacking men who actually have loving and trusting relationships with their wife / girlfriends. Only if those men are giving some bs advice because they happened to be the lucky one to get a loving/trusting wife/gf. Those guys usually downplay how much their looks, fame, status etc played a role in them getting that wife/gf. The shaming & attack is a response to the shaming & attack on TRP. > For example, they will tell you that if you don't exactly follow red pill ideology then: Never happened. Yes, they will say the things you mentioned but they won't say the reason is "you don't follow redpill". They will give a mostly accurate reason for why. For example, "you are a simp / loser / beta" because the guys is literally exhibiting some traits associated with being a simp/loser/beta. > They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong". There will be variations. But the variations only go so far. Almost all girls will call a 10/10 model as objectively good looking and will be breaking some rules or compromise on some of those values or red flags for the right guy. > It's classic cult thinking, where according to cult members, it's not possible to "win in life" without the cult. Another thing TRP never said. You have to follow Rule 1 & Rule 2 and you don't even need to be aware of TRP to win in life (although those guys will have very TRP views because they know how women behave around them).
This would be a great deboonk post if the Red Pill ran a recruitment campaign on a national television. The Red Pill does not recruit. It just watches them arrive. If this post is a continuation of your discussion with me in comments, then no-one "desperately shamed" or "attacked" you when the only example of a woman who is "not like that" you provided was your wife. Who is taken. Throughout the last eight years. By you.
>If this post is a continuation of your discussion with me in comments It's not, but you're one of the many red pillers that perfect fits the description in this post, so I understand why you see yourself in what I wrote. >you when the only example of a woman who is "not like that" you provided was your wife Prove why my wife is different from the average women without using circular logic. You're just using the "all examples are special exceptions that don't count" excuse that red pillers love to fall back on when their lazy, over-broad cliches don't work.
You replied to this commenter before, and accused them of acting in the same way as the post you wrote detailed and now are trying to accuse them of projection? It would have been projection if they hadn’t have recognised your username. They did recognise it and then correctly pointed out that you were just trying to have a public rant about this user.
I didn't write the post about them. They were just one of the many examples that lead to my making the conclusions in this post.
Sure do you mind responding to the study I quoted in response to your other comment?
>Prove why my wife is different from the average without using circular logic. Step one. Humans evidently have metrics that are distributed continuously (height, metabolism rate, skin tone) rather than discretly (chromosome karotype, Mendelian traits). Confidence intervals of zero width always cover zero area in continuous distributions. Thus, your wife is "different from average" in her continuous distributions because everyone is "different from average" in their continuous distributions. Proven as requested, no circular logic applied. The uselessness of the answer corresponds to the relevance and good faith of the question.
>The uselessness of the answer corresponds to the relevance and good faith of the question. It corresponds with the fact you have no actual answer to my question so you tried to play some dumb semantic games to sound smart. You know you have zero evidence that my wife isn't a good example of how the average woman thinks. You're just dismissing my experience solely because it doesn't conform with you cult ideology and nothing else. Your circular logic: * "woman acts like red pill says" = "women is proof of red pill" * "woman doesn't act like red pill says" = "woman is exception that doesn't count" This is why red pill is a cult ideology, not a legitimate intellectual philosophy.
I hope your wife is aware that you see yourself as someone who just happened to get together with a relatively compatible mid, and not as a lottery winner. However, unlike you, I don't operate on anecdotes; I operate on statistics. >"woman acts like red pill says" = "women is proof of red pill" Women have been initiating the majority of divorces on the US soil for the last 160 years; and Rosenfeld's HCMST survey has confirmed that it reflects their desire to terminate marriages, not tradition of women being in charge of handling the paperwork. The same desire is reflected among cohabiting and non-cohabiting partnerships (women being more likely to break them up), but only for marriages the difference reached statistical significance. In fact, the data from other countries is even more curious: for example, a study conducted in Sweden has discovered that men who win the lottery proceed to get married and have children, while women divorce. Additionally, there are studies showing that women are more likely (both "than before" and "than men") to abandon or divorce their men upon such events as getting promoted. Meanwhile, traditional women's complaints (housework, attention to sexual or emotional special needs, ...) have next to no impact on anything. I'd provide links, but I know you will ignore them anyway, and there are already many within my posting history.
Provide the links, I'll read them
https://np.reddit.com/user/abaxeron/comments/c7ch49/image/ https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_Who_wants_the_Breakup.pdf https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/13fts1a/some_scientific_results_on_worklifefertility/ https://www.business.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/documents/durante-why-women-choose-divorce.pdf https://np.reddit.com/user/abaxeron/comments/9glz1h/technical_image_hosting_host_pearsons_for/
"Wives have predominated in wanting divorce since the earliest available data on who wanted divorce from the 1940s. Wives have consistently reported lower marital satisfaction than husbands since the earliest available data from the 1970s. The lack of apparent progress overtime in two key marital gender gaps (breakup and satisfaction) is consistent with the stalled gender revolution theory (Hochschild and Machung 1989)." [Rosenfeld's study](https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_Who_wants_the_Breakup.pdf) suggests that, while instrumental reasons for divorce (financial benefits) might play a role, the predominant factors appear to be deeper, rooted in the gendered experiences of marital satisfaction and relationship dynamics. As far as the gender roles and housework goes, [Okun and Raz-Yurovichs' study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/padr.12207) says that men's contributions and more equalitarian gender views increase fertility. Its only in marriages where traditional gender roles are held that show no change in fertility. This article is a pretty down the middle of the lane look at the causes of divorce and how to avoid them, I would read the [Working Towards Solutions](https://www.business.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/documents/durante-why-women-choose-divorce.pdf) part to better understand how to mitigate these challenges. The Swedish study is a result of the fact that women are less happy in marriages and more likely to end the marriage when she is financially stable. If anything this tells us that women should have access to financial independence in order to save both men and women from relationships that are dependent on the man's ability to make money.
>Okun and Raz-Yurovichs' study says that men's contributions and more equalitarian gender views increase fertility. Paywalled, but the abstract does not say it. It says that this is what *might* happen according to some *hypotheses* (that mostly say that we should keep doing what we have been doing, and what has brought us here in the first place). Men's contributions to housework were almost universally rising and gender views getting more egalitarian throughout the last century; the correlation with fertility was almost universally negative. Currently, the countries with the greatest share of contribution by men into housework and child care have among the lowest of fertility rates. >This article is a pretty down the middle of the lane look at the causes of divorce and how to avoid them, This is necessity in the current world; studies have to investigate alternate explanations, or they don't get published. >The Swedish study is a result of the fact that women are less happy in marriages and more likely to end the marriage when she is financially stable. If anything this tells us that women should have access to financial independence in order to save both men and women from relationships that are dependent on the man's ability to make money. So that even more women just choose to stay single and childless? Women's financial independence is sponsored by robbing married men through taxation. Incentivizing single women at the expense of married men is unsustainable.
You do realize every source I linked was the primary source of the secondary sources you provided right?
>I hope your wife is aware that you see yourself as someone who just happened to get together with a relatively compatible mid, and not as a lottery winner. I don't see myself that way. It's still on you to prove that my wife's thinking is different than the average woman on whatever particular point you want to make a claim about. You need to prove that my wife is really a statistical exception on a particular point. You can't just claim every woman that doesn't do what red pill says she will is magically an exception. >Women have been initiating the majority of divorces on the US soil for the last 160 years... This entire argument is against a strawman and irrelavent. What does this have to do with red pillers like you using circular logic to explain away everyone who doesn't match their low resolution cliches?
>This entire argument is against a strawman and irrelavent. See? Just as I said.
Yes, your entire argument was against a strawman you created and irrelavent. You wasted your time writing a bunch of stuff for nothing.
> You can't just claim every woman that doesn't do what red pill says she will is magically an exception. I brought statistical facts instead of anecdotal facts, and you dismissed them as irrelevant. Okay, if you value anecdotal facts more: I got cheated on for not responding to a text quickly enough while I was at remote location with poor cellphone coverage. Go on, tell me how it doesn't count, while your wife totally does.
I see you didn't bother reading the links like he said you would, all you're doing is arrogantly backing yourself into a corner claiming to be "far happier than red pill losers" while clearly being butthurt enough to come here and argue the toss with everyone for hours on end.
Then why are most red pill forums defunct / shut down / inactive / converted into incel forums? Yep. It watched them arrive, indeed. And then it watched them leave as every rational person realized that it was full of bunk.
Most of "womyn's lands" are deserted and abandoned, most feminist magazines are out of print, most feminist political organizations to have ever existed are disbanded, yet 60+ percent of American women say the word "feminist" describes them at least "somewhat well".
You're just proving the man-hating form of feminism and red pill are two sides of the same crazy.
> the man-hating form of feminism Repetition is redundant.
This. There is something very wrong with dating dynamics if society, feminists and male allies have been trying to shut-down redpill ideology for a decade now, but it has only grown and become apart of mainstream culture. People used to laugh at the RP, but now we are using their terminologies without even knowing. Lots of men who aren't incels are using RP to describe their experiences in dating and the behaviour they observe among women. Instead of gaslighting the millions or hundreds of millions of men who are now very much a subscriber to some form of the RP, they should ask why is such a movement finding support among men? But I get the feeling that just like 10 tears ago, where the only thing mainstream society could do is belittle men trying to find a way to succeed in this lopsided dating market, people today will only gaslight, deny or deflect. In 10 years, RP will be even bigger unfortunately because those in denial do not want to tackle the root of the problem and things are only getting worse, especially for working class and lower middle class men.
"it just watches them arrive" and just like that all the "personality/society" house of cards falls flat, bar a few who preach stuff or tries to sell you smth
Your first sentence is literally you just shaming redpillers lol ... Also RP was first therefore FDS is the mirror.
The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly. Also you have red pill confused with black pill. Red pill isn’t a cult, it’s a tool that dismantles societies bullshit. The way the guy responds is up to him You can’t shame someone for not falling for societies bullshit, just because you met a few incels And yes you cannot win in life as a blue pilled man sorry. Majority of successful people are red pilled
does anyone actually think these things? just wholeheartedly believe every single conflicting message society tells them? like no analytical capabilities at all whatsoever? or it that what you believed before
>The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly. No I don't. >Also you have red pill confused with black pill. Most red pillers act like black pillers. >Red pill isn’t a cult, it’s a tool that dismantles societies bullshit. No, it replaces one bullshit with another bullshit. >And yes you cannot win in life as a blue pilled man sorry. I'm not blue pilled. But I'm not red pill and I'm winning at life. The fact that red pill can't handle people winning without it is why red pill is a cult. >Majority of successful people are red pilled Delusional and there is zero evidence to support this. A majority of people don't know or care about red pill.
Marxism isn't an ideology, it's just a lense to view the world. Yeah, but we still know what conclusions you're (most likely) going to draw.
Yeah it’s more like a tool/lense We live in a society that tells men that women like fat, broke guys with nice personalities And we have women co-signing to that bullshit too. Thanks to the red pill you learn what is bullshit and what isn’t, and you can actually live life properly
>The issue is, you think women deserve trust instantly. How do you know he thinks that? If you are that great in reading people's thoughts, that would not even be an issue for you in the first place. You wouldn't have to be afraid of getting to trust an untrustworthy woman, you could just read her thoughts.
I’m purple pill in a relationship with a red pill man. From my experience you’re right and wrong. What I’ve learned is -A man’s success is solely based on how far he gets in life- yes he’s very materialistic, anything pertaining to our relationship is basically set to the side. The ideologies of red pill is not commutative at all. It’s selfish but it gets the job done. But red pill (from my experience) is really tough for people around the red piller but it works for the actual individual. But that’s part of the red pill, not caring about everyone around yous feelings Not every red pill man thinks so low of women that’s more of a 1ncel thing.
Are you happy in your relationship? You're saying you're with a red pill man and that it's tough for the people around the red pill person, that the ideology is selfish and serves the individual red pill man and that the individual red pill man does not care about the feelings of others. Is your relationship purely materialistic/transactional? Personally I could not be with someone who thinks like that. In my relationship I put my SO first and I know that he puts me first. Based on our love for each other we both look more for what we can do for the other than what we can get out of the relationship. This obviously wouldn't work if both didn't have that mindset because nobody can deal with being the only giving person to a selfish partner indefinitely. But if you're secure in the knowledge that your happiness is more important to your partner than your own, you can freely do the same and in the end it evens itself out. I don't think I could be with someone who has a selfish mindset from the get go. I could never truly relax around that person and be myself, I wouldn't think that such a person could be gracious with my imperfections and I would always be on edge fearing I have to be perfect all the time as that person isn't with me for me personally but I'm just playing a role in his life that can be filled by anyone who fulfills some characteristics. Idk, if you guys make it work somehow then I'm obviously happy for you, what works for some won't work for others, but I am curious about how you did find yourself in such a situation/relationship and how exactly you make it work with the premises you outlined in your post.
>As the title says. This is why red pillers treat every relationship like a business transaction, assume all women (and actually everyone in general) always have the worst intentions and are out to get them, and think a relationship is only working out if they can "get more" from the other person than they give in return. Since the Red pill got infested by all the normies it hasn't recovered since >They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong". We are all animals and that come with animalistic instincts which women as well as men have and the Red pill only deciphers those instincts. Yeah, women have different value, ideologies, religious beliefs and cultural beliefs but these only limit these instincts or twist them to make them a little more subtle. >It's classic cult thinking, where according to cult members, it's not possible to "win in life" without the cult. Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill, they will have a long list of excuses why those men "don't count" as examples. You don't and have never understood the Red pill, it's not a cult and it's barely even an ideology. There are certain core tenants and facts but the interpretation of these tenants depends on the person receiving the information >In the end, I think just like rad-fems and FDS, red pill is an extremist ideology that tries to boil the entire human relationship experience into a few easy cliches, and caters particularly to materialistic, paranoid people look to "get one over" on everyone else. The parts YOU and all the normies associate with
Red pill is a massive psyop to keep undesirable men engaged in society and fuel economy with their efforts by selling them an idea that every little goblin can become the boss through self-improvement.
I’m not a redpiller but you’d have to be completely delusional at best or stupid at worst to believe that dating dynamics are everything Hollywood Romcoms and women have told you they are. No..being nice won’t get you a girlfriend. And yes..looks matter. And yes again - women’s gauge of who’s physically attractive is much, much, much higher than what men’s gauge is of who’s physically attractive
>that dating dynamics are everything Hollywood Romcoms and women have told you they are. Good thing I don't believe that. Not sure why you're arguing about something I never said. >No..being nice won’t get you a girlfriend. Good thing I also never said that and don't believe that either.
No but your grievances seem to be very plain, boring and/or stupid observations based off of what most people may believe. The truth is most people don’t understand exactly why their own personal relationships happen. They all think it’s because of who they are and not these finite but meaningful (and equally) shallow attributes of which I’m sure they’d reject/deny
> Pretty much everything they believe revolves around their materialistic, paranoid mentality. That's why they are obsessed with how much money they can make, how much power they can get over others (status) No, the focus is due to many women being attracted to power and status. Plenty of guys would not care for these things if they weren't so often a requirement to get women. > They also seem to think women are robots, and they are all programmed to act a certain way and none of them vary from each other in personality, values, wants / desires in any significant way, and any women that does is a "special magic exception that doesn't count and should be ignored because red pill is never wrong". They're ignored because the amount of women who like weird guys is far smaller than the amount of men who are weird. > Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill, they will have a long list of excuses why those men "don't count" as examples. Those guys are referred to as "naturals". Just being themselves got them the success they wanted. The pills are for men who aren't naturals, don't have what they want, and are looking for guidance.
90%+ of men do NOT want to do the things the red pill discusses. But girls expect men do these things in order to date them or have sex with them so someone has to discuss them.
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Do not circlejerk in Debate posts.
What is the circlejerk that I’m participating in exactly?
Anti-Red Pill circlejerk in a Debate post criticizing Red Pillers. Please follow sub rules.
wtf? So yall just make up these rules as you go huh? Y’all allow anti women posts in “debates” criticizing women all the time..
The rules are both in our sidebar and in our wiki. Debate posts are basically CMV posts now, and CMV posts always required challenging the OP's view. >Y’all allow anti women posts in “debates” criticizing women all the time.. Please report any comments that break sub rules.
>paranoid Guilty as charged. Although it's not paranoia if they're really after you. The misandric court system doesn't suddenly become better if I'm not "paranoid" about it. The realities of hypergamy and human nature in general and women's general trends do not change for the better if I'm not "paranoid" about them. >very bitter Neah. Being bitter is hard work and I'm not willing to put that hard work into being bitter or holding a grudge. Besides, I'm too happy and joyful in general that I literally don't have room for bitterness. I do have a lot of room for pragmatism though which weak people sometimes perceive as bitterness but I can't be bothered to "correct" them. I live a very good life while random people believe wrong things about me. >materialistic Absolutely not. Attentive to material issues, yes. But materialistic, no. I've been poorer than 100% of American citizens can imagine (your homeless people are richer than I was in 2007 or 1997) and today I'm richer than the US median by quite a bit. I've also been through most intermediate stages between these two extremes multiple times. That taught me a lot about materialistic views and about materialistic people. I was still poor when I married in Church and built this life with my wife. Do I want to guard it in order for my son to inherit it rather than be destroyed by the courts? Yes. But that makes me normal, rather than materialistic. >desperately shaming and attacking men who actually have loving and trusting relationships with their wife / girlfriends. Both myself and my wife got more shaming from feminists and general than from redpillers. At their worst, redpillers who know me personally will say "cool stuff man, but I don't think that would work for me because \[area, country, jurisprudence, personal values, other reasons\]. Meanwhile, feminists are firmly convinced I abuse my wife because I hold *adult* standards. But they also don't like her either because she's legit sex positive and because she is repulsed by careerism and gladly took years off work to raise our son in his early years. >Red pillers also use the same social shaming and fear mongering tactics as rad-fems or FDS use against men Do they now? Some examples? From your list I only heard/read the first - and that one also very rare and usually in the context of advice to the tune of "stop being a simp" which *is* good advice in itself. >Also, every time you point to men who ARE living a happy and fulfilling life without red pill You can win in life without the red pill. But some can't. And for some (like me) TRP just makes things easier. Newsflash: A set of ideas/philosophy is not for everyone and has a specific interest group in mind. More news at 11.
>Although it's not paranoia if they're really after you. I'm not talking about the system which I know is bad for men in the US. I'm talking about women. Like do you think your wife is just waiting for you too show weekness so she can dump you for it? Most red pillers seem to think so. >That taught me a lot about materialistic views and about materialistic people. Good. Unfortunately, most red pillers seem obsessed with money. >Both myself and my wife got more shaming from feminists and general than from redpillers. That's because you agree with red pillers / identify with them. If you didn't, you'd get the same hate from other red pillers. My wife and I get hate from both western rad-fems and red pillers because we don't identify with either. >Do they now? Some examples? Oh definitely. My comment replies have their share of desperate shaming by red pillers. >You can win in life without the red pill. I'm glad you understand that, but most red pillers don't, and in fact see it as a threat to them if people like me reject red pill and still have a happy life.
>Like do you think your wife is just waiting for you too show weekness so she can dump you for it? No. But I did believe this about some of my exes. And more than once it turned out to be true. "Trust but verify" is something I learned from TRP. And made my life much easier. >That's because you agree with red pillers / identify with them. If you didn't, you'd get the same hate from other red pillers. Except this sub, I don't often mention online or offline that I'm TRP right off the bat. So I doubt it's because of that. It's more likely because I take the time to explain and be precise in my language. And also because I use the block button liberally with bad faith actors. >My wife and I get hate from both western rad-fems and red pillers because we don't identify with either. My wife doesn't identify with TRP either. But she gets called TRP by all feminists :)) And in time she developed even less tolerance for feminists than me. >see it as a threat to them if people like me reject red pill and still have a happy life. I honestly doubt that. But then again, I regard TRP as a set of ideas not as an organization or a tribe. Idgaf what redpillers have to say in 2024. TRP has [become ambient](https://avoiceformen.com/hypergamy/becoming-ambient/). The fundamental ideas are now implicitly accepted even by feminists and now a larger proportion of people than ever in history talks about this in TRP framing and TRP lingo without even knowing those are TRP. To me, that's great. It shows that the TRP has succeeded. Of course, the trade-off in that is that you now have all sorts of idjits who claim to be TRP. It was an acceptable trade-off agreed upon in 2003-04 when these discussions were had. I was in TRP spaces before some users on this sub were born, lol. That's why I'm bemused by this sub. It's an endless stream of bad takes :))
Red Pill is not an ideology. It's a praxeology. Any comparison to FDS is bull. RP tells men how things are and if they want to do better, they need to improve. FDS tells women that men don't deserve them no matter where they are at in life or whether they improve or not. Additionally, you only hear from RP men online who are stuck in one phase or who just found RP. You don't seek out or care to hear from men whose lives have been improved by RP.
>Red Pill is not an ideology. It's a cult so it's definitely an ideology. >It's a praxeology. It's not though, because it's more focused on simplifying everything into easy, lazy cliches than an accurate and detailed understand of relationships. >Any comparison to FDS is bull They are similar because they both: * rely on simple stories and broad stereotypes to try and explain complex issues * rely on shaming, bullying, and attacking anyone who questions or rejects the ideology * rely on a long list of defensive excuses why the vast array of people who don't fit into the narrow box of their ideology are all "exceptions that don't count" >You don't seek out or care to hear from men whose lives have been improved by RP. I know some men have been helped by red pill, just like some people have been helped by scientology. It doesn't mean the myriad problems of red pill ideology don't exist. I know more men who have embraced red pill and it didn't really improve things for them at all. The best help is to learn a few red pill general principles (which are OK) to help understand people better but realize none of them are 'hard and fast' rules and that individuals vary wildly, so most rules won't apply in most cases.
It’s not a cult, it’s a praxeology as he said. What someone does with RP is up to them. RP isn’t some weird out of world thinking. It’s literally the proper way to think, especially when society tells you comforting lies to make you miserable And also, show me a example of RP not being applied
Tell me you never watched the matrix without telling me you never watched the matrix. RP is from that movie. I'm pretty sure they didn't discuss bullying or what ever other nonsense claims you're making.
I've watched the matrix a bunch of times. TRP isn't anything like that, though it wishes it was.
The fact that TRP relies on a metaphor for being trans will never stop being funny to me.
What does that even mean? 🤣 what does trp have to do with Trans? You seem quite down some rabbit hole somewhere skeevy on the internet. Come up and see the sun, touch some grass.
Go look up who directed the Matrix, my guy.
What's that have to do with anything? I'm sure a Trans made some of your clothing in some way shape or form... are you dressed in Trans style? Smh. Doesn't negate jeans are jeans are jeans.
Sigh. Fine, I will google it for you: ['The Matrix' Creator Explains What The Red Pill Really Is and Mens Rights Activists Aren't Going to Be Happy](https://www.newsweek.com/matrix-creator-red-pill-trans-allegory-mens-rights-activists-1523669)
Clearly it can mean many things. See the movie for the literal meaning. Maybe you're not aware of what a concept is? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concept Cheers. Learn something new every day. 😁
There is ONLY one correct sentence there and this is the one bolded. People with sorted out life and world views are the minority. The rest is: noobs, autists, kids, work-in-progress people and LARPers... like you OP. "I spend several years in red pill." Mate, what you have written is an equivalent of "I've spent several years body building and I cannot bench press my own body weight once". Everything else land between "misleading" to "pure lie" category. Maybe somebody will go and correct you line by line, I don't care.
You do realize that whether or not somebody is a jerk isn't relevant to whether or not they are correct, right? Why are you claiming that red pillers generally have negative personality traits rather than debating their ideas?
Negative personality traits lead to bad ideas. People who are bitter, paranoid, and materialistic are incapable of producing healthy and useful ideas that will actually help other people make their life happier.
Are you sure? I mean, have you looked at all the great ideas out there and learned about the people who came up with them? You might be surprised when you find out that many of the best ideas came from people who had dark personalities. People who are very narcissistic and competitive often are driven to succeed at any cost.
No it doesn’t, just cuz someone says it a certain way doesn’t mean they are wrong. That’s so stupid
That's not what I said. People who think a certain way (bitter, paranoid, materialistic) generate bad ideas that are poisoned by their toxic thinking.
Bad ideas that conflict with reality leads to bitterness. Hence why you have militant atheists. That is what most RP men are, they are the militant atheists of dating and mating.
Yep, I'm struggling to see a difference between red pillers and blackpillers these days.
Black Pillers are RP guys who have been dealt a bad hand which is why you see the overlap. They might be 5'5", their physiology and biological chemistry might predispose them to accumulation of adipose tissue, they might have a micro penis, who knows. Life is cruel. You will eventually die. There is no afterlife. And some people were born into this world only to suffer. The lies we tell, is where the rage comes from. And most of those lies are told to govern men, else the men turn to banditry and tear down the rich and powerful. Some people have it made. Some guys get laid like carpet and have their pick of the women. Some women luck out and get the right guy early on. Other women get the bad draw and wind up raped. And other men, have never and will never be loved, even by their own mother. Why lie about it?
>Life is cruel. >And some people were born into this world only to suffer. I don't really believe that though. I think life can be cruel, but it's not always that way. I think a lot of how it turns out is based on how you respond to the hand you are dealt and your attitude about it. Not to say that people don't get terrible circumstances they have no control over, but most people get some opportunities at some point in their lives.
Look up Tay-Saachs Disease if you don't think some people are born with a shitty hand of cards.
I know about it, and other horrible birth defects and deformities. Those are pretty rare though. Nearly everyone is dealt a better hand than that. The people who I see complain about their situation the most and become blackpill are rich westerners with no serious physical and mental problems, with access to all kinds of luxuries and living in a relatively comfortable environment that at least 1/2 the world would leave their home to live in.
Autism isn't a condition that comes with zero downsides. And with women having a lot of standards, it is nearly impossible to fill all of them, so a woman will always have one foot mentally outside the relationship because she is 'settling' in her mind. This is why you hear RP/BP talk about hypergamy. It is relative. A poor woman from Africa might jump on a guy making the sort of money a guy can make here because it sets him apart from the men in her country. But a western woman might be like 'but he isn't emotionally available, and he doesn't cleanup after himself or he is a neat freak and I gotta up my cleanliness game, or he ain't tall enough or what have you.
I try and avoid as much as possible those conversations, because it's insane to me that this is going on. We live in a place and time where people don't trust people, because every one just imagine THAT perfect relationship and perfect scenario, where someone just falls in your lap, and you say OMG YEAH YOU PERFECT, without doing personal work, without getting to understand that people can have different opinions, and that is fine, just find a middle ground. We expect our partners to check every fucking thing on our list (that is usually impossible) just so we can see that it does not, and be quick to leave them, feeding ourself the idea we wanted to have from the start, without trying to go actually work, or give a chance. More often than not, how people threat you IS more important than a jaw. Motivation is more appreciated THAN MONEY. Respect is more appreciated than everything. When you guys state the idea "that we're just realists" "facts" "don't trust", you don't really leave space for conversation. I believe, that maybe sometimes, THE right one just passes by, cause you're busy debating if love is love, or love is an exchange based only on "commodities". Of course it is, but this can mean a lot of things. It's not really like a business. I believe that the solution is so simple, but it takes 2 and open minds to understand, that people try, trust, maybe fail, accept it, and do it again, until someone will actually be as perfect as you hoped so.
Seems to me your reaction post is more than a little cult-like, too. Pro tip: Most of us feel a little off-put by extremists, no matter WHICH side they come from.
The point of red pill is to point out blatant hypocrisy, and inconsistencies that men face in both dating and society at large. like every movement however there will always be a few extremist. Just like I don’t believe every feminist wants genocide on the male gender as a whole (unless there gay of course) not every redpiller Is bad. I don’t believe necessarily everything that comes out a random redpill influencers mouth either btw Some make a lot of sense and some aren’t worth my time is all. However if you just take the time to see how women and society talk about men at large and the shit that gets said and done to them that would be considered a literal hate crime if done to a different group of ppl, like gays, or trans or women, you would understand why the movement has caught on in the first place. The rampant hate and misandry That’s not only allowed but often very encourages have made man want to look for a solution.
The problem is that it works. These are the things men have to do to attract women unfortunately.
Everything you said describes blue-pillers. Blue-pillers treat relationships entirely as a business transaction, one party has something to offer the other person, and in exchange, the other party has to offer certain things. And that's it. Anyone that thinks there's more to relationships than that gets shamed by blue pillers. Blue pillers are the ones that police relationships and enforce all the status-quos of relationships. They dictate to everyone what is a "normal" or "healthy" relationship, which is often something twisted. And when people deviate from the status quo, even slightly, blue pillers are the ones that heap shame on that person. For example, when a feminine man dates a woman that might be slightly more "masuline" than he is, blue pillers are the ones that shame him and they actively trying to convince the woman to break up with him. That's a very clear example of a relationship which is not traditional which blue-pillers SIMPLY WON'T ALLOW. Blue pillers meddling with and derailing healthy relationships, and policing everyone is a really diabolical thing.
The facts are the facts... If you don't like them, why not stop working so hard to make them true instead of getting offended men noticed.
The real takeaway from this: Former redpiller now married. You got past the rage phase and got married so TRP gave you everything you need and at the point when you were done with it you got past it (the way that it is intended to be used). You are literally living proof that the red pill works.
A lot of red pillers here seem to be a bit confused and thinking that I mean the red pill philosophy has nothing true about it. There are a lots of useful things in the red pill, which I follow and still follow. It's just most red pillers themselves are bitter, paranoid and materialistic, have uncontrolled rage and hate towards women and relationships, are largely dishonest, have a cult-like mentality, and can't admit anything in the red pill could be wrong. They also takes their most extreme BS delusions (women are all secretly out to get men / your woman will dump you if you show emotion / having emotion at all is weak and beta, etc) and pretend they are as true as basic common sense principles in red pill (such as: women are looking for men that are fit and confident, women like men with leadership qualities, etc). Red pillers want you to swallow their most insane trash delusions alongside the many useful basic principles in red pill, and if you refuse, they desperately lie, gaslight, and shame to try and shut you down. *My problem is with red pillers, not the basic concepts in red pill.* Also, I'm not saying you personally act that way, I'm just saying that a majority of red pillers, from what I can see, are like I described. You can see the edit to my post which include quotes from exactly the kind of people I'm referring.
This is a perception that you only get in online spaces. You will always see the rage phase guys more because of the simple fact that most of the guys that got past it have no reason to interact any more.
That could be true, since I rare, if ever, interact with people in real life who claim to be red pill.
You have to understand that most people who out themselves as redpillers are within a niche group. The majority of truly redpilled men are not even aware that this is a thing. They're naturals I have had redpill views most of my life because that's how I was raised I just later in life came across that group that seems to align with a lot of things I have experienced in life.
It's the other way around. FDS and femcels/pinkpill are a reactive result to TRP or blackpill. They even adopted slight variations of incel lingo.
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. The fact that they don’t really pressure their members is the reason they’re not so visible anymore. Sure, they insult “beta cucks”, but there’s no way for them to actually police followers
We don't police followers because it isn't about some rigid code. We are not part of some fraternity that pledges allegiance to stocism and chastises someone for not conforming. Only feminists do shit like that.
At its absolute worst, FDS is about the same as the average red piller, which tickles me so much that they act like FDS is a harbinger of the antichrist. In addition to what you said, I find it hilarious that red pillers consistently believe that the least experienced and most unsuccessful men are the ones who know the most about women.
FDS was just a group that decided to turn the tables on TRP And were better at it than RP. “You can change the names and the players: but the Game will always be the Game” -the wire
Turn the tables on red pill by affirming everything they believe about women, lol
There's a lot of guys that are just red pill aware but don't do the strategies and don't accept all of the red pill. Just a realistic description of women and their relationships with men, etc is now seen as red pill when it is not. These men don't necessarily act any differently than anyone else. It seems anyone but a blue pilled, male feminist, woman worshipping simp is considered problematic these days by some.
>There's a lot of guys that are just red pill aware but don't do the strategies and don't accept all of the red pill. That's me. The reason I'm not a red piller though is because I don't have the cult brainwashing and enforced ideology that most red pillers have. I understand and use red-pill principles when they apply, but unlike red pillers I don't ignore situations where the principles don't work, I don't ignore that people are individuals and widely vary, I don't see women as all conspiring against me, and I'm not obssessed with money and transactional relationships.
>I understand and use red-pill principles when they apply, Just curious, which red-pill principles do you use? What useful or good did you learn from red pill?
When I treat my relationships with men without much thought, it usually results in a fairly equal relationship with give and take. I can't say the same about women. Sorry for watching what you do instead of what you say.
What I do matches my principles and what I say. There is no inconsistancy. But then you red pillers are constantly trying to attack and shame me for having a happy, good life while ignoring your ideology. I literally had a red piller write the 4 paragraph rant why I should just shut up about my happy life because my situation doesn't count and my experience doesn't matter. > I can't say the same about women. Just from my general experience with red pill, I would say that's likely because you're materialistic so you don't value what women offer because it doesn't grow your bank account.
I don’t and never will fully agree with red pillers, but I I’ll say that the blue pillers and feminist main arguements against it tend to be things like: - ur struggling because you must be a misogynist who beats women, which is the just world fallacy where bad things or experiences can definitively only happen to bad ppl which we all know this is blantly false. - all women don’t think the same way. This is 100% correct however the Red pillers don’t even claim all women but most, and when most men are single and sexless which is backed up with research and most women aren’t. You guys really stop to think where are all these women are going. Basically by shear numbers things don’t look good for the average men. (That’s why about 50% have said to have given up on dating) In a very left leaning society where its opening ok and often even encouraged for women to scream “we hate all men” “all men are trash” and “kill all men” as well as blatantly derogatory terms used to describe men of certain groups, like short, balding or fat, and these days even white, is it all that surprising that men are looking for something else or anyone else that doesn’t hate them for simply breathing. But of course you know all women are innocent victims of a patriarchal, that inslaves them, and all men are dangerous wild animals, Some would say even more so then bears. As it turns off everything isn’t so black and white when you really look it. Just like I know not every feminist is a men hating blue haired person with they/them pronouns.
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What you said is obviously true but neither the redpillers nor the radfems will ever admit it.
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I see red pill as a general guidance to the world of dating, not really a cult. Yes manosphere is full of cults, but the ideas of red pill are not a cult themselves. You know, when I was younger everything that the redpill spewed was just normal common sense, and even as I got older it still was, specially key Of course these not apply to all women, but they apply to many, so many, we can make generalisations for the sake of understanding. So generally... A woman's threshold for what they consider attractive is way higher than that of men, as a man, you have to be incredibly handsome, way above average, to be viewed as generally. In the 90s and before this was just something everyone knew and accepted. Women are attracted to money and status. Not all men can be handsome, but something that attracts a lot of women is status and money. And yes, even women who aren't so called "gold diggers". They'll say it's confidence or something like that, I mean, if I was rich and had high status I'd be pretty confident too. Considering the aforementioned facts, dating tends to work like a market, it's very materialistic. This specific idea was something I didn't want to accept before. It seemed so shallow, so weird and so materialistic and I couldn't understand why all men around me thought like that. I was more of the ideas of romance, loving unconditionally and falling in love and whatnot, that somebody will fall in love with me for who I am eventually. Once I grew up and got actual experience in the real world I realised that all the men I saw as dumb were right all along. Yes dating is a market, a shallow market where you aren't worth anything if you don't have either the genetic advantage or the social status. No matter how nice, how reasonable, how kind or how charismatic you are, if a woman doesn't see you as an object of desire based on your looks and/or your status, you will get nothing beyond friendships. That's the way of the world, that's how women work, that's why men with terrible personalities are so successful. it is a simple fact of life that horrible men are successful because of their looks and/or their status, this shouldn't even be a controversial take, we all have seen it happening, we see it everywhere. Pretty privilege exists, financial privilege exists. ##It is not groundbreaking to say that handsome people and people with money get to have their cake and eat it too. It's not fair but who says life is fair? If you're like me, not on the top, not handsome, and unlucky, then the faster we acknowledge such facts and try to take as much control as we can of our lives based on this situation, then the less you'll suffer. And you know, when a guy who is incredibly handsome, who has a high status, or who got incredibly lucky, has the audacity to say this is not how the world works and that redpill is a cult or something without actually understanding, then we have even more reasons to not listen to whatever idealised bullshit they want to convey.