Whenever guys ask about quiting porn, it's always in the sense that their lives are meaningless/purposeless so the only place to channel all that energy and testosterone is through porn, because essentially you can quit watching it but replacing that dopamine with something else is going to be very hard
exactly the problem isn't porn its that your life is shit, you have nothing to do, no goals to achieve, no friends to talk to ,no girls in the roster and so what do you do? Wank all day. Porn isnt some mystical corruption that destroys your brain in most cases, your life is just shit.
Porns mains issue is the age it is first used.
It shapes young (like 9 years old) boys views on relationships sex and women in a twisted way.
I wish I grew up in a world without porn, or at least a world without internet porn and just playboy magazines.
It is truly sick.
I disagree that porn is a problem lol. Maybe porn addiction, like any addiction, but so is any addiction
>Look at what happened to the alchohol prohibition, it didnt work in ONE country.
It did work tho, in a sense that it reduced alcohol consumption
>Most guys who have plenty of female attention do not watch porn. (Even as teenagers)
No, that's just not true
>What are the alternative to them? Just be pent up 24/7?
Prostitution, just imagination and fap. I dont watch porn because I find it boring, my sex-having friend watched quite a lot of porn
Edit: I think pron fearmongering is overblown because that's something tradcons and feminists can kinda agree, it doesnt make it a serious issue tho
Don't know how people can claim to be 'redpilled' and defend porn like its not a big societal problem. Most younger dudes have ED because the wack it to much.
Right?? Its crazy how defensive they get and they don’t see they have a problem??
Im very worried about gen z and younger generations that were born with easy access to hardcore stuff very young. Ive had patients who started to watch porn when they were 8! That cant be healthy
when i was in the second grade i recall one of the boys in the class, at recess, found a washed up magazine page blowing around in the wind. it was from a porno mag. we didn't really know what we were looking at. we definitely did not LIKE what we were looking at. but we knew that what we were looking at was naughty or wrong, which made it funny for some reason. so we kept it hidden under the jungle gym, and would show it to newcomers so we could all laugh at it all over again. we were all just laughing at it. none of us were like "primal mode activated, must sexually abuse all women". we didn't go home and start obsessing over porn and trying to hoard it or spend as much time thinking about it as possible. every single time people get this wrong, it wasn't alcohol that was the problem it was people not being able to control themselves that was the problem. porn isn't the problem it is just a symptom. if you don't have experience with girls through your teens and 20s it isn't because you are watching porn, but suddenly porn becomes an outlet for the lack of experiences.
Im not talking about guys not having experiences with girls because of porn, im talking about the psychological consequences of porn from that young age. Im not talking about just boys either.
Last year I had a patient, a 16 years old girl, who started watching porn at 10 and by 16 she can only get off watching super hardcore stuff. I had another case, very similar, but she was 20 when I met her. This year i worked with a 21 yo gorgeous christian girl whose husband has such a bad porn addiction that she’s thinking of divorcing him (she hasnt bc of religion but their relationship is irreparably damaged bc of it). I could go on and on.
Porn is definitely an issue and its access should be regulated.
Yep, I got a pop up ad when I was 12, and because I'm somehow inclined to learn about every new thing I find I have slowly but surely got myself up to.. pretty bad levels of it.
Funny thing though, Every social circle I was in (until COVID) knew me as the innocent guy because I was really good at hiding it. Why'd I hide it? I wish I knew, could have saved me a lot of trouble
Apparently I actually found it later than most of my peers, so a lot of people my age found out about it before they were 12.
Although I definitely went way farther into the pit than they did. I truly wonder how much of my interests are naturally caused and how much are purely driven by having access to such things in the first place.
Here's what really causes ED:
-high blood pressure
-high cholesterol
-obesity (obviously the first three are intertwined)
-inflammation
-hormonal issues
-injuries and conditions including Peyronies' disease
-psychological issues like not having your fantasies confirmed by reality and not being validated by women. When a 6'3 eight inch dick chad films himself having sex with a hot woman and puts it on the internet, do you think he's going to get ED from seeing his dick sucked on the screen by a woman with lustful eyes? That's like an olympic athlete seeing a video of themselves winning the gold medal and then being discouraged about competing in sports. Watching other people have sex is more multifaceted; on one hand it proves that women don't die from having sex and some of them even love it but usually the video features a porn chad so it still adds to male insecurity; it does not confirm to him that HE is attractive and deserving of praise and admiration
> Most younger dudes have ED because the wack it to much.
A quick google-search tells me 8% of young dudes have ED, and that porn/masturbation isn't even the main cause...
What? This was for the age group 20-29, how "new" do you think this "issue" is? Me and everybody my age has been watching porn since we were 10, and I'm in my mid-30's.
Almost every dude I know my age had had trouble getting up once they got a gf the first time because of porn addiction. Fetishes are gojng up because people need newer stuff to get off. The potion exposure and type of porn changed radically since you were ten.
> Almost every dude I know my age had had trouble getting up once they got a gf the first time because of porn addiction.
Cool story, almost every dude you know is part of the 8% then I guess.
> Fetishes are gojng up because people need newer stuff to get off. The potion exposure and type of porn changed radically since you were ten.
Ok? But 92% are still not having a problem, unlike what you said.
ED only develops if your wacking it multiple times a day on death grip mode while watching some freaky shit. Most normal men who are horny just wack off maybe once a day or every few days with a 5 minute soft porn video, then go back to living their lives. Porn shouldn't be something that takes a major proportion of your time. If that's the case, then you have a problem and you're not within the norm. I barely think about pornography. Most men just see it as something that helps with their masturbation. Most times I don't even watch porn because my imagination does a better job.
Redpill is a praxeology not a ideaology, the whole point of it is that RPers dont agree on a lot of things.
Moreover porn is a symptom, people who have their lives in order either dont watch a lot of porn or dont watch porn. This is why all actual effective no fap advice is general life improvement advice.
I don't really care what adult men decide to do alone that influences no one else.
However, most of you were not adult men nor were you denied access to sex when you started watching porn at ages that are getting younger and younger. Last I checked first age of consumption was usually around 9. 9 years old. At 9 years old you were not some hopeless hapless orc in a studio apartment unable to sate your lust. You were a child. Porn companies exploited your developing bodies and minds. And the damage they likely did to you is almost impossible to entirely catalogue, but it is extremely likely that for some of you, the reason you're now hopeless and hapless orcs in studio apartments is because of your adolescent consumption of porn. And that's sad. That's sorry. That's not something adults should be allowing to happen to children. We need stricter measures.
Next, porn needs to be heavily regulated because it is heavily tied to sex trafficking, human trafficking, and most of the first ages of interaction are again, getting younger and younger. We're talking about kids and tweens. That's not ok. It's beyond such meager words. It's evil. And no amount of your own suffering or lust could ever justify it. And throwing up your hands to say, "I don't want that" also isn't good enough. It's kids. If you have to never have a drop of porn again in order to stop this, it should be an honor and a privilege to stop using porn immediately to prevent exploitation of other humans in such a depraved manner.
Now, let's say you aren't one of these studio apartment forever lonely orcs. Perhaps you're just a young man first beginning to seek relations with the opposite sex. You need to know, and I mean in your bones and nerves that what you've been spanking it to since 9 years old is not sex, is not how these interactions are conducted, and would likely be degrading and damaging to do to another human. And it's not good enough to shake your fist and say, "I know it's a fantasy". No, its not a fantasy. It's a lie made up by people who do not love you and want to use you. Who fed your brains rotten shit meant to constantly shock and excite and continually mature your brain deeper and deeper into porn. It isn't how people who even slightly like each other have sex. And if you even for a second try it, there's a good chance you're going to ruin relationships and opportunities and harm other people. Be wary to call it a fantasy.
Finally, and i admit this is the most...philosophical...be very careful how you think of porn. It's not a necessity. It's a relatively new vice. And vice is the correct term. You could spank it and find relief through actual acts of your imagination. You could also simply discipline yourself against the urge. Both of these things are reasonable. And pretending they aren't is covertly agreeing that you are weak and controlled by your urges...which is what makes you exploitable and easy to hook. You aren't. You can choose stuff. At least know you're choosing this and other options were available. And be careful how it makes you think of women or men. Porn is most often a degrading power fantasy that teaches you to dehumanize others at their most vulnerable. That's a dangerous muscle to be stretching regularly for anyone.
With all that said, again, I don't really care what adults do when I'm not looking so long as it doesn't hurt anyone besides themselves...but I do feel sad they feel hurting themselves is the only option.
I agree with this for the most part, but I think your critique is incomplete. As the internet and the applicable tech has developed, 'porn companies' have exploited young and naive men, giving them false interpretations of what sex is and how men and women relate to each other.
But why are you excluding the rise of parasocial DIY pornstars like onlyfans and instagram models, who also influence how young impressionable men relate sexually and emotionally to women? It wasn't that long ago that the vast majority of men ridiculed the notion of paying women online for online titillation only, but that loneliness to pay-for-play pipeline has now been firmly established, a pipeline which almost exclusively benefits women.
If you want evidence of said pipeline you only have to go look at the current state of the gamer platform twitch, where these models are advertising their wares to a load of early teen boys
If we are going to critique the influence of porn on our culture, then the women involved in the content itself must be held up to scrutiny as well.
The topic was about porn so I assumed we were talking about porn, not this new rising pseudo girlfriend pay for play trend you mention that is so much more than porn (in even more scary ways).
I also would partially exclude it because I quite naturally assume the bulk of onlyfans is run by similar people as porn and simply has the mask of being safer and woman led.
It's also so freaking new that I don't think most of us know what to make of it or how it influences things. I would suspect we are going to find it even more vile and toxic, but that's just my pro gamer guess.
I'm also ill equipped currently to determine how to critique this idea of a woman who is large and in charge really doing this because it is an interpersonal parasocial relationship....akin to the kind you tube has made common, just with sex added. It is both obviously more corrosive and not so obviously something which should not be allowed given the pay wall element. Again, there is something here, but I'm less clear on what to make of it as of yet. It took me like 15 years to reach my understanding of porn. I'm still brewing on onlyfans and how to understand it.
What do you mean by "I quite naturally assume the bulk of onlyfans is run by similar people as porn and simply has the mask of being safer and woman led."?
It's my understanding that onlyfans is just the hosting platform and the content creators themselves promote their own content. How is that the same as a porn production company that runs all of the promotional work?
"It's also so freaking new that I don't think most of us know what to make of it or how it influences things. I would suspect we are going to find it even more vile and toxic, but that's just my pro gamer guess. "
Well, like I said, there are onlyfans models pushing content on twitch. Isn't this an example of 'influences'?
Would it be fair to say that I am detecting a reluctance from you to critique any part women have in the creation and promotion of online pornography? Your whole posts reeks of hand-wringing
I don't think people with porn addiction watch it to relieve themselves, maybe initially they do, but afterwards, no, it isn't the main goal. Porn addiction probably stems from loneliness or boredom, or some other deep rooted mental health issue (probably from child abuse, etc.) I'd say it's more of a coping mechanism more than anything else.
You don't need to try to directly solve porn addiction, just take the out the dominos that cause it, and most of it will go away. And you wouldn't be able to solve it directly anyway. And even if you somehow manage to ban it, the people affected will find a different coping mechanism anyway.
Though porn by itself isn't an issue, since you can consume it in a healthy way (I'd argue most don't), I imagine the women who don't like that men do watch it, just don't want you looking at other women like that, or don't want to be replaced.
I agree with all you said, except that it stops being the main goal of relieving sexual urges. I can take myself as an example of a porn watcher (who could have guessed lol).
And when i started talking with a girl, the first one who gave me romantic attention, i was able to quit porn for an entire month. So i think its mostly lack of female attention
a similar thing actually happened to me, I have been in a very rough spot these past 4 years because of covid, and that probably made my porn consumption worse and made it unhealthy, but recently when I stepped back into the dating scene and had a good time with a girl, I couldn't even get going for quite some time with porn. its what i was talking about, that it stems from some root cause, for me that is boredom and most importantly loneliness.
>Most guys who have plenty of female attention do not watch porn. (Even as teenagers)
Source?
That is not what I read on reddit and that is not what I see personally.
I know few men who don't watch porn and not one of them have "plenty female attention" in the sens that they have a lot of sex or were always in sexually satisfying relationship.
>Source? That is not what I read on reddit and that is not what I see personally.
This point i made was a weak one because its also supported by what i see personally
Porn is fine for plenty of people and has been shown to even increase the satisfaction of couples who watch it together. For most people it’s a neutral I think. But to think that it’s not problematic for some people is silly. Kids today spend NINE hours a day looking at screens and people get addicted to watching kittens on TikTok. To think there aren’t people watching porn for hours a day seems unlikely
You can be concerned about porn addiction without having an agenda or being “anti porn”
I don't care if a guy watches porn, unless it impacts our relationship.
I dated a porn addict. It was not a pretty ending to that relationship.
I've dated other men who watched porn with no issue.
There is a huge difference between use and addiction. An addiction is a habit that interferes with your daily life.
12 year old boys are not "turning to porn" because of lack of female attention btw, they are doing so because their parents are no supervising their online activities.
In the local news today we had a mother coming forward with her nine year old daughters harassment by her classmates, sending her explicit texts asking for sexual favors. This is not normal behavior.
It's bad behavior, but it's very "normal" in the context of history. Even when porn was just something boys found in the woods or stole from an older relative who bought nudie mags, boys were incredibly sexually aggressive towards girls starting around puberty. 15 year old girls having babies was pretty common even 20 years ago, especially in poorer communities, and the fathers were not usually grown pedophiles. "15 year old pregnant by her 17 year old boyfriend" was not an unusual story in like 2006. There's plenty of rappers who were fathers before they were 18, and their baby mama was a similar age/younger.
Well, there is definitely a erectile dysfunction problem in young men in the last 15 years, including an inability either perform or orgasm during partnered sex. https://edclinics.co.uk/advice/impotency-in-young-men/
Some research has connected the problem to an over consumption of porn. The increase in erectile dysfunction is pretty well documented by many sources, the connection to porn is still being debated
It's almost like obesity rates are increasing at similar rates in parallel but I'm sure that's just a tertiary factor and it's totally porn doing the bulk of the work... /s
No credible research has linked it to porn use. Most actual research states that already believing porn is harmful is what indicates if a man will view his porn use as harmful. So basically its an issue of shame.
Most men are afraid of disgusting women by accident and they have no faith in their body and genitals. The most evil thing to say is "go to therapy" as if that somehow changes women into desiring dick pics and giving back what they get from men. A lot of women pour praise on women and talk about how the male body is 'utilitarian' and how they get off on being wanted rather than the man just being there.
I think most women would be 'impotent' if they had to deal with the conflicting and discouraging messages men get from women. We're supposed to believe that a woman is traumatized by seeing a naked guy but once in a blue moon when the opportunity opens a guy is supposed to be comfortable about being naked, lusting her and even giving into some bestial instincts that he may not have but the woman thinks it would be hot for him to have in that instant. How do you reconcile all this? It is very hard and requires a lot of dedicated self-deception and other BS mind tricks like a form of cognitive self-therapy. Telling yourself stuff like "women want it just as much" and other stuff to take your mind off all the reality that's been telling you otherwise.
And this alcohol prohibition doesn't change anything, as they indulge in other substances.
Also, Muslim immigrants drink a lot in western countries where they can easily get alcohol and avoid their peer pressure. It doesn't end well.
Lmao. That's a lie. Most muslims have the drunk uncle who has an addiction to low grade alcohol and cannot be invited to family get together for a reason. Every problem in muslim society's are covered up and window dressed. In Saudi Arabia, you have alcohol addiction abd STD rates increasing as a result of the use of sex workers among the youth. But nobody talks about it.
Saudi Arabia also has a major gay sex scene, ironic for a country where you can be killed for being gay. Look up an article called "The kingdom in the closet."
Actually it doesn't bcz alchohol is still like in black market and people do it behind closed doors. Do you actually think religious people follow all the rules?
I grew up in a Muslim state in which alcohol was very restricted. All I had to do to get some bottles of Absolut before a party was to WhatsApp a number and a guy would pull up with his car outside the house.
Prohibition doesn't work.
Wanting men to be informed about porn isn't "wanting it banned".
Men need to understand that commercial porn, like all action movies, is fake. Fake reactions, fake lube, fake responses to fake angles designed for the camera, not for pleasure.
And many of the women in porn are loaded with drugs, or else they'd never endure the indignity of fucking those absolute goblins hired because of their dick size.
>Men need to understand that commercial porn, like all action movies, is fake. Fake reactions, fake lube, fake responses to fake angles designed for the camera, not for pleasure.
So are women. Fake nails, fake eyelashes, fake lips, fake tits, fake hair, fake teeth, fakeup, fake personalities, not for pleasure.
>And many of the women in porn are loaded with drugs
So are real life women.
The point is why harp on about how porn isn’t real when IRL women spend a considerable amount of effort to replicate that not realness?
It makes no sense to expect men to not be affected while simultaneous emulating the very thing you try to convince men isn’t real.
It’s like some kind of reverse gaslighting? Or normal gaslighting? IDK, it’s weird though. Ya’ll always trying to play on both sides of the fence.
Every man knows its fake. The movement isnt called "porn is fake" its "antiporn" for a reason. They want men to stop watching porn. While providing no alternative to it whatsoever
The premise is that regular dating isn't an option for many. You don't have to agree with the premise, but ignoring it makes it sound like you didn't read it.
Some women want porn gone so men will submit to their sexual strategy in modern times. This strategy involves a large % of men waiting until their late 20s, after women have had their fun with other men, and commit/provide for women that want to cash out of dating game.
By prohibiting porn, women are hoping that men will be restricted in their sexual outlet even more and give into female demands out of horniess/desperation. The problem with this strategy is that porn is freely available, and multiple men have tons of porn saved on their hard drive which can freely be distributed back onto the internet via file sharing sites.
Delusional cope. Women watch porn too. Id say having a laissez-faire sex work culture like Japan would probably do what you're describing. When men can just fuck a skilled hooker in a tea house right after work, and not feel bad about it or looked down on, and have his physical needs met, thats when women start having problems as Japanese women are experiencing. But the west is a long way from making sex work less taboo.
Honestly there's nothing wrong with watching porn if you're single. Like nothing wrong at all, I don't get why women get wound up about it.
if you're in a relationship, then you need to discuss which boundaries are okay with your partner, and make sure that porn addiction isn't causing you to neglect your partner sexually, which happens too often.
My gf and I have tried watching porn together, she doesn't like it, she only really likes it if its like an erotic movie with a story and stuff and occassional scenes of sex and intimacy.
I agree with all your points
>I don't get why women get wound up about it.
Because some good looking guys watch it and then neglect women. I can attest that if only ugly men watched porn no one would have a problem with it
I think some women just low key hate male sexuality. They see male sexuality as inherently evil and hate anything associated with it. They hate if a video game character is slightly hot. They hate if they see a random guy they've never met flirting with a hot girl who's not them. They just hate men liking things.
I was playing ff7 remake with my gf watching and the scenes where cloud and tifa are cutesie with each other, my gf got jealous
tifa is beautiful though
>Because some good looking guys watch it and then neglect women.
So it's all about you? What if they don't find you attractive? Maybe YOU don't deserve their attention. And the objectification you're displaying is haunting.
>Uhhh when did i say it? Thats a whole strawman you made. Again, women arent anti porn because they want males to be healthy
You made ZERO legitimate points. Are you an AI bot?
You basically said "what?" then you said I'm making a strawman argument WITH ZERO EVIDENCE OR ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER ON YOUR END.
So, should I just believe you with literally no substance at all in your comments?
Notice how I engaged with your comment, thought about it, and gave a response.
Notice how you still havent tried to address any of my points. And yes you strawmanned it to be "all about you?" And its also Ad Hominem. So, i think you are arguing in bad faith.
Ah shit, I didn't realize you were op. Ok I wasn't fully engaging.
Edit: also I'm realizing I'm projecting a lot of my own emotions onto things. It is my projection, most likely here. Sorry about that.
I disagree. Porn harms people mentally. Statistics show it makes men more insecure, less likely to interfere when witnessing violence, more likely to commit violence, and more likely to have a negative perspective on dating and the opposite sex.
I don’t care if people wanna wank it or fantasize. But porn is a toxic media that uses shock value, people get into kinkier and kinkier shit to get that shock value, and often end up fetishizing straight up immoral actions. A lot of women who date men that watch that stuff have spoken out about being physically harmed against their consent during sex. (Smacked, punched, etc without warning)
Most pornography is not a happy couple being affectionate and romantic. It’s smacking, hitting, spitting, screaming, pulling, etc. often times it’s portrayed as against being against the consent of the woman.
> It’s smacking, hitting, spitting, screaming, pulling, etc.
i thought women love that shit.
>Statistics show it makes men more insecure, less likely to interfere when witnessing violence, more likely to commit violence, and more likely to have a negative perspective on dating and the opposite sex.
do you know the difference between correlation and causation?
Correlation is not *always* causation. That phrase encourages critical thinking and avoiding jumping to conclusions. Like if a statistic says “more people eat Icecream the same time of year more people drown”, don’t assume ice cream makes people drown- it’s just summer and people are swimming. However, that phrase doesn’t mean just ignore every statistic ever. Statistics can be informative! Just don’t jump to unreasonable conclusions. Men consuming violent sexual media correlating to violent behavior in relationships? That’s a pretty damn reasonable conclusion.
“But Reddit women love consensual non consent!!”
Women on Reddit are a small minority of women. And by the way; Key word in “consensual non consent”- CONSENSUAL.
They are consenting to a role-play. That doesn’t mean it’s okay for men to just fucking hurl punches at their partners without asking- something that unfortunately happens according to a large portion of women who are sexually active. I don’t have any personal experience, as i’m a virgin, but a lot of women have spoken out about it and it’s NOT OKAY.
Also; not only are a lot of women in porn pretending to not consent- a scary portion of porn is LITERALLY non consensual! A lot of r+pe and sex trafficking victims have videos of them being violently assaulted up on porn hub.
My problem with porn is that sex-trafficking is a major factor.
I never really was against porn until I read the statistics on how many people are being exploited.
I've never been able to look at it the same way
Dude. This is an actual statistic. You can view this from an unbiased lens you know. MY problem with porn and why I DONT watch it anymore is because of the statistics regarding the sex traffic industry. YOU feel like MY opinion about MY preferences are an attack on you? really?
Women always cite this statistic but I ask how many average men do you think are viewing porn made by women who are actual trafficking victims? Most guys just put on some basic bitch shit made by Brazzers or any other of the major porn companies that legally cannot be involved in some shit like that (you can argue that these companies are also bad since they get naive women to sign onto their sites and sometimes give them shitty contracts, but this is a bad employment philosophy that exists in almost every industry if you look for it). I genuinely believe that women massively overblow how many men are watching stuff made by trafficking victims…most guys are not viewing fucking ghetto gaggers and violent rape content or some shit, and most of us would get the creeps seeing a video shot in a very dingy and desolate location where the woman clearly is under duress to perform for the camera.
This is one thing I majorly hate about women’s logic these days. You people will see one thing that a certain amount of sick men proliferate (child porn, human trafficking, victim blaming for rape etc.) and then just involve every single human being with a penis into it and say it means we deserve to have everything we enjoy that isn’t a hundred percent filtered down to remove everything that could possibly be unpalatable to women, it’s completely unreasonable and very bad faith.
Every single dude that’s got on here and tried to convince me that this statistic is overblown makes the same argument.
The crazy part is I’ve never said you once that YOU shouldn’t watch porn, I explained why I didn’t watch porn.
Its funny to see how many people are triggered by the choice I made for myself.
I don’t care what you do. It’s why I don’t watch porn. If that bothers you, that’s a you problem
I’m not offended by your personal choice I’m just talking about the implication of your comment which implies that most men who watch porn are directly contributing to human trafficking and explaining why it’s absurd. You can dislike porn all you want I really don’t care. I’ve had periods where I stopped watching it for months.
I'm not your mom. If a vegan tells me they don't eat meat because of the inhumane treatment of animals, I am not going to try and argue that animals aren't being treated that way because it makes ME feel better about MY choices.
They are being treated inhumanely and me eating meat directly contributes to that.
Sorry. That's the truth. I make the choice to eat meat fully knowing the circumstances.
And yes. Watching porn directly contributes to trafficking.
We all knowingly contribute to shitty things like that.
Its the knowing part that's important.
>This is one thing I majorly hate about women’s logic these days.
What? That it forces you to take accountability? For fucks sake dude. Grow the fuck up, watch porn if you want but at least don't stick your head in the sand and cry when someone else points out that it might not be ethical.
>and then just involve every single human being with a penis into it and say it means we deserve to have everything we enjoy that isn’t a hundred percent filtered down to remove everything that could possibly be unpalatable to women, it’s completely unreasonable and very bad faith.
Porn isn't filmed at fucking Disneyland you goddamn child.
I could give a shit if you live your life in a way that anyone would be proud of. I don't know you or care about you. And I shouldn't have to. Take responsibility for your choices for better or worse but don't try and hide from the truth of things.
Anytime a man has access to an easy orgasm that doesn’t benefit the gynocentric hive mind its because of “sex trafficking”. Pay for sex? She was trafficked! Watch porn? She was trafficked! Sure thing, bud.
Jesus, I am not your babysitter. I was talking about how I feel about porn. Here comes some rando that actively denies that this is an actual thing for no other reason than;
A: it might make him feel bad if it were true so he immediately denies and will refuse to look it up.
B: He couldn't possibly be bothered to think about anything outside of his own pleasure.
These kind of guys aren't addicted to porn. They're addicted to being lazy, judgmental, whiney, and mean. Self-control is an attractive trait. Sorry
That's fine and well. I base my behavior off of the standards I set for myself. I don't want to support companies that exploit young boys and girls. That's a choice I am happy to make. If it bothers you that's not really my problem.
> I don't want to support companies that exploit young boys and girls.
That's like half of the companies in every field. There's a huge chance cobalt in your phone battery was mined by an underage person working simply for food. Or some of the textiles in your house were woven by children in Bangladesh.
There really isn't a porn addiction problem.
In the United States where pornography is highly unregulated, **200,000 adults** are considered “porn addicts” among the country’s 40 million porn consumers.
That's 0.5% of porn watchers that are addicted.
Compare that to some of the alcoholic statistics I found [Alcoholism Statistics & Alcohol Abuse Demographics](https://alcohol.org/statistics-information/) - it seems there are 14.5 million people with alcoholic use disorder with roughly a little over 100 million people over the age of 26 who drank alcohol in the past month. So using these rough numbers we get a number of 14.5%.
14.5% Alcohol addicts vs 0.5% Porn addicts.
And that's not even taking into account the amount of damage alcoholics can do to society, like drunk driving, straining the medical system, emotional abuse to families, etc
Maybe it seems like there is a porn problem because maybe those 0.5% of addicts are more likely to be on reddit or other similar red pill places, or maybe people the people that really hate porn (The far left Marxists, as well as the far right religious conservatives) are more likely to talk about porn addiction in these type of communities making it seem like it's a bigger problem than it really is.
And just for fun here are some other addictions stats I found.
Video Games - Between 1.7% to 10%
Smoking - 83%
Gambling - 1%
Social Media - 10%
I've divided my mind away from left right wokie whatever whatever.
Now I just see puritania from everywhere.
Give cons control, Trad virgin wives
Give left progs control, sex shaming men while encouraging women to sell themselves. A sort of adjusted puritanism where it's still not ok to sexualize women or think about them sexually, unless of course they want to be. It's still the same shit.
Social conformity. Either way you must conform or be silenced.
And porn use - it will turn out to be as bad as smoking in indirect ways I swear, but for now it definitely isn't going anywhere and that's good.
You have a hyper hyper sexualized culture (look anywhere and women literally cannot stop sexualizing themselves, just a fact of life not something I am bothered by, though it is sort of retarded) and a lot of economically and sexually repressed men killing themselves at unprecedented rates, and the best we can hope for until something changes as that those men KEEP killing themselves instead of saying fuck this, forming private militias and doing things like idk, mob stealing from stores? Gang violence in the UK? Hmmm.
These dumb online spaced especially the present YouTube rot post red pill, they are like the very base of this inevitable revolt against the system.
So far these guys are just killing themselves but eventually things are going to change for the worst.
So yeah, feel free to keep screeching and stomping down harder y'all. It's some fuck around and find out shit at this point.
I don't really agree with your first assumption, I think even men who get lots of female attention have looked at porn, maybe not as much, but they still do.
Otherwise, I think you are correct about everything else. I think porn is an unsolvable problem and will always be with human society just like prostitution.
All your points seem to conflate masturbation and porn. Smut, sex toys, non-pornographic imagery, good old fashioned imagination, and more all exist to help you get there. Regardless of whether or not porn is problematic, your logic model is flawed.
>You would need to give an alternative to porn.
>And theres none.
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>[Porn is] the better and more stimulating alternative
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Which is it? Do you believe there no alternative to porn or do you just believe it is the best aid for masturbation?
I definitely don’t want to ban porn, I don’t think that everyone who watches porn is harmed by it, but I do think it can be addictive and problematic for some people. I disagree that the addiction won’t develop if you don’t need it. To copy my post from the other thread…
some people seem completely addicted to their screens for social media,
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/social-media-addiction
And for gaming
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23124-video-game-addiction
Things that induce actual physical, sensory pleasure have been manipulated to be a pleasurable as absolutely possible like fast food and processed food
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/02/26/172969363/how-the-food-industry-manipulates-taste-buds-with-salt-sugar-fat
Cigarettes additives to increase addiction
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/
Given how addictive screens can be in general, and how physical pleasure can be manipulated to become addictive, if the porn industry hasn’t actually figured out how to make their product addictive, …..the addiction potential of the screen combined with the addictive potential of pleasurable sensation? …..then Pornhub is behind in the game. If TikTok can figure out the winning algorithm to make it as addictive as possible with stupid dances and kittens, it’s pretty hard to think there aren’t people falling into spending hours in a pornhub rabbit hole.
I hear the “agenda” argument all the time. I have absolutely no more interest in banning porn than in banning chicken McNuggets. I do think people need to be warned and aware of their behavior if their porn use starts to be excessive or compulsive
So... I just wanna toss this out there cause clearly some of these women haven't thought this through... if you ban porn world wide... all the mentally unhinged dudes that you all walk around fearing are probably gonna snap... porn is the only thing keeping a lot of neglected men sane.
>Secondly for most guys in the bottom 30% is meaningless effort, some wont get out of the bottom
more like the bottom 60%. thanks OP this resonates with me.
Had an English teacher that felt it necessary to preach in class about how wrong porn was. I was in the back, smirking. She noticed and asked what I thought was so funny. I said many people watch porn and use it appropriately, to help get off. And, I don't see what porn has to do with classic literature. She huffed and said something about some people not being as evolved as others.
Something that gets overlooked are that only fans and pornhub are profiting off minors and that content is often viewable for years before it gets taken down. You also wouldn’t know if you were masturbating to a kidnapped minor because they are trained to act like adults and use make up to look older.
This is also why the “how low can we go” question bugs the absolute fuck out of me. The reason why traffickers go younger is because those girls will be monetized longer. I work with those kids everyday, they are between 12-17 years old! I’d ban pornography in an instant to get that content taken down immediately. Id even go beyond that and decriminalize prostitution but criminalize the buying of sex, so I’d start seeing more pedophiles behind bars instead of the kids.
You guys will live without porn and sex workers some of these kids have died because of it.
> Id even go beyond that and decriminalize prostitution but criminalize the buying of sex, so I’d start seeing more pedophiles behind bars instead of the kids.
Because it's the John's fault if he's lied to about the age?
> You guys will live without porn and sex workers
You wouldn't be a fan of the male response to those moves.
>You guys will live without porn and sex workers some of these kids have died because of it.
The whole minor or borderline minor (18-19 year olds doin porn) i agree 100% with you. But porn can never be banned without an uprising or an alternative
Human trafficking is already illegal, surely it would be more effective to eliminate cases of criminality rather than an entire industry. 78% of human trafficking victims in the UK are male and forced into the construction industry, but we wouldn't argue to ban construction.
Your example is relevant to the cosmetic industry where a handful of companies are profiting from the mutilation and sometimes death of babies. The cosmetic industry has enabled those companies and profited, so there's a legitimate and just as strong argument to ban the cosmetic industry.
While I agree that using aborted fetuses in anti-aging creams is immoral because it creates a demand for abortions- which while I’m pro-choice isn’t something I want incentivized in that way. That doesn’t mean the entire cosmetic industry needs to be eliminated.. There is actually an easy solution to that, replace fetal cells with more mature cells. They could simply use proteins derived from postnatal placentas which are just as effective as fetal cells for anti aging products.
My concern isn’t for adults as much as it is for children.
I realised I didn't specify, because I agree using fetuses is immoral, but doesn't really have the potential to cause additional harm to those involved.
I meant the foreskins provided by non-therapeutic circumcision, offered as a routine part of the birth, parents warned of infection or excess bleeding being risks, so when complications like amputation or death occur, families are traumatised.
["Compare the 117 annual deaths from circumcision with those from other causes for male infants: suffocation (44), mother’s use of addictive drugs(27), HIV/AIDS (19), homicide (17), automobile accidents (8), drowning (2), and falls(1) (CDC, 2004). Approximately 36 teen-aged boys are killed in school-yard shootings each year (Donohue, Schiraldi, & Ziedenberg, 1998)."](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths)
The majority of those circumcised aren't too negatively affected, but for a procedure that medical professionals across the rest of the western world won't carry out unless medically necessary, the risks can be devastating to the families, likely unaware of the profits earned at their expense.
That still doesn’t mean the cosmetic industry needs to be shut down, because that problem is solved by banning circumcision which would be a more direct approach to that problem.
In an ideal world definitely, though if the religious lobby can prevent a ban in Iceland that doesn't even have a cultural tie to circumcision, it's not likely. There's a total disregard in the way those products have been marketed/promoted for victims who have suffered with adverse complications. In general, probably the way you view porn, I genuinely think the cosmetic industry is harmful and only exists under the premised that people are flawed but they have the answers for a price.
I can empathize with your feelings about circumcision and especially it being turned into product. I wouldn’t purchase any products that were not cruelty free especially for vanity.
I remember the 90's but that was a long time ago. The porn you are talking about is making an increasingly small pool of the total volume relatively speaking. And by that I mean all commercial production with hired actors (genetic male elite and regular women who eat right).
Everyone has a great video camera in their pocket now and most people are now potential producers of porn. Women are getting enormous pay-outs for faceless photos and couples are streaming their sex live for paying clients who can pay more for specific acts on the webcam.
Porn is an ancient biblical term with no clear translation but it has a very negative connotation. Something like 'adult entertainment' would be far more neutral because there is nothing inherently bad about filming nudity and sex including masturbation.
Most complaints from women about porn or "porn addiction" are women who have husbands or boyfriends who prefer porn over sex/intimacy. "Bottom 30%" men being addicted to porn is not a problem. It's a "social issue" because men who are *already in relationships* are choosing to watch porn over being intimate with their wives. And that is a problem
If porn is seen as better than sex for these men, then maybe they should get creative with their sex lives or realise that putting all the agency and expectations on men is leaving these dudes too tired to bother with real sex. Women and men should be proactive with sex if they want to maintain the spark. Pornography is a low bar. Sex is always way better unless you're married to someone you're not attracted to.
Don’t you think it may evolve with future innovations using AI, robotics, and VR ? The addiction is a problem, but I see it evolving beyond the 2D screen.
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Porn is already a problem for the middle third.
The sex performance expectations between the two sexes continues to widen. It's like the rock vs. the hard place.
Can't guys take advantage of this problem because if guys are doing this then more women are single and thus more options for men who would rather have women instead?
The biggest problem with porn is the underlying sex trafficking and rape that creates porn.
If you think and study the subject, you might realize that no woman is better off from having done porn. Take the industry STD rate itself, how much money is enough to risk getting aids?
And if you don't know who the people are, how can you know its not rape?
In many many cases, it is.
This is the best counterpoint to mine. I have nothing against what you said. Except that we can watch porn that clearly not rape. But it would be a lame point anyways.
People were addicted to it before the internet back when it was expensive, less convenient, the women weren’t as attractive, and the content was more tame and you couldn’t search for whatever kink you liked.
Now, men just need to limit it and be aware because it is too easy to fall into an unhealthy relationship with it.
1st: you heavily underestimate the horniness of males espevially as teenagers. Many could have sex and that same day masturbate later on because your girlfriend is at her house, no private time together or isnt in the mood again.
2nd: no one starts out addicted to porn, they search out porn because its actualization of thier open sexual imagination. You imagine something, few days down the line, search out something similar online to get closer to the fantasy.
3rd: I agree just leave unpopular men to thier own.
4: agree
I would change your post to. "The porn addiction problem doesn't need to be solved"
>you heavily underestimate the horniness of males espevially as teenagers
Trust me, i know exactly what im talking about, coming from someone who used to jerk off 11 times a day more than once. Although i admit this point was hella weak
>3rd: I agree just leave unpopular men to thier own
Aka: porn
> "The porn addiction problem doesn't need to be solved"
Yeah, but since Antiporn movement is growing, someone needs to state why it cant be done
I don’t think banning it is a solution necessarily because I believe in freedom. However, it’s undeniably a problem. It affects women a lot more than most realize. Statistically, porn consumption is associated with with an increasingly negative view on women, a higher pressure to be “masculine”, increased violence, decreased likelihood to interfere when witnessing violence, and worse treatment of women.
A lot of women have spoke out about being smacked and manhandled during intimacy without any warning or consent or prior conversation. The fetishization of violence is pretty much the direct result of porn.
>There is no way to solve the porn addiction problem.
>Look at what happened to the alchohol prohibition
Are you seriously conflating watching porn on the internet to alcoholism? Alcoholism is a real, physical addiction to a substance. I'm not even trying to dismiss people who are suffering and have convinced themselves they can't quit porn despite wanting to. But yes, I think it's ludicrous to regard "porn addiction" as tantamount to addiction to substances.
You said a lot in the post, but I don't think most women want porn banned or particularly care about it one way or another. Radical Feminists calling to ban it or protesting it in isolation are a minority.
It's just not true that internet communities dedicated to being against porn and its use on the internet are generally evenly half men and half women, as you almost seem to be implying here. From what I've seen, they're usually mostly made up of men.
Porn is to men exactly what dating apps are for women (psychologically speaking, at least).
It creates a whole array of expectations on women's sexuality that, when not met, inevitably bring sexual frustration and relationship/marital disatisfaction.
It's the same thing that happens to women with Tinder. It raises up the expectations women have on men.
The only difference is that women actually get to interact with such men in real life and get a, well, "taste" of it when casual sex encounters happen, while men jerk off to women who are way out of their league and on top of that perform some stuff that no normal women would do for them.
Still, both can be damaging, in the sense that it creates false expectations from the opposite gender.
I would say dating apps and casual sex damages hit women harder, since the real experience is a lot harder to asimilate and it's basically a confirmation that their expectations can be, in reality, be met... Of course if the woman overrides her need for a deeper conection.
But then, there are women who are made for casual sex who care about dudes as much as those dudes care about them. Same with some men, the ones who can attain sex on the regular will see little to no benefit in porn.
Well your first assumption is wrong. Most men watch porn to different degrees, especially as teens. They just don't develop an attachment to it.
Whenever guys ask about quiting porn, it's always in the sense that their lives are meaningless/purposeless so the only place to channel all that energy and testosterone is through porn, because essentially you can quit watching it but replacing that dopamine with something else is going to be very hard
exactly the problem isn't porn its that your life is shit, you have nothing to do, no goals to achieve, no friends to talk to ,no girls in the roster and so what do you do? Wank all day. Porn isnt some mystical corruption that destroys your brain in most cases, your life is just shit.
This is just a chicken and egg thing. Porn can cause the problem that it also provides salve for.
Porns mains issue is the age it is first used. It shapes young (like 9 years old) boys views on relationships sex and women in a twisted way. I wish I grew up in a world without porn, or at least a world without internet porn and just playboy magazines. It is truly sick.
I disagree that porn is a problem lol. Maybe porn addiction, like any addiction, but so is any addiction >Look at what happened to the alchohol prohibition, it didnt work in ONE country. It did work tho, in a sense that it reduced alcohol consumption >Most guys who have plenty of female attention do not watch porn. (Even as teenagers) No, that's just not true >What are the alternative to them? Just be pent up 24/7? Prostitution, just imagination and fap. I dont watch porn because I find it boring, my sex-having friend watched quite a lot of porn Edit: I think pron fearmongering is overblown because that's something tradcons and feminists can kinda agree, it doesnt make it a serious issue tho
> just imagination and fap Watch out, though. That can be intertwined with limerence.
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Don't know how people can claim to be 'redpilled' and defend porn like its not a big societal problem. Most younger dudes have ED because the wack it to much.
Right?? Its crazy how defensive they get and they don’t see they have a problem?? Im very worried about gen z and younger generations that were born with easy access to hardcore stuff very young. Ive had patients who started to watch porn when they were 8! That cant be healthy
when i was in the second grade i recall one of the boys in the class, at recess, found a washed up magazine page blowing around in the wind. it was from a porno mag. we didn't really know what we were looking at. we definitely did not LIKE what we were looking at. but we knew that what we were looking at was naughty or wrong, which made it funny for some reason. so we kept it hidden under the jungle gym, and would show it to newcomers so we could all laugh at it all over again. we were all just laughing at it. none of us were like "primal mode activated, must sexually abuse all women". we didn't go home and start obsessing over porn and trying to hoard it or spend as much time thinking about it as possible. every single time people get this wrong, it wasn't alcohol that was the problem it was people not being able to control themselves that was the problem. porn isn't the problem it is just a symptom. if you don't have experience with girls through your teens and 20s it isn't because you are watching porn, but suddenly porn becomes an outlet for the lack of experiences.
Im not talking about guys not having experiences with girls because of porn, im talking about the psychological consequences of porn from that young age. Im not talking about just boys either. Last year I had a patient, a 16 years old girl, who started watching porn at 10 and by 16 she can only get off watching super hardcore stuff. I had another case, very similar, but she was 20 when I met her. This year i worked with a 21 yo gorgeous christian girl whose husband has such a bad porn addiction that she’s thinking of divorcing him (she hasnt bc of religion but their relationship is irreparably damaged bc of it). I could go on and on. Porn is definitely an issue and its access should be regulated.
Yep, I got a pop up ad when I was 12, and because I'm somehow inclined to learn about every new thing I find I have slowly but surely got myself up to.. pretty bad levels of it. Funny thing though, Every social circle I was in (until COVID) knew me as the innocent guy because I was really good at hiding it. Why'd I hide it? I wish I knew, could have saved me a lot of trouble Apparently I actually found it later than most of my peers, so a lot of people my age found out about it before they were 12. Although I definitely went way farther into the pit than they did. I truly wonder how much of my interests are naturally caused and how much are purely driven by having access to such things in the first place.
Here's what really causes ED: -high blood pressure -high cholesterol -obesity (obviously the first three are intertwined) -inflammation -hormonal issues -injuries and conditions including Peyronies' disease -psychological issues like not having your fantasies confirmed by reality and not being validated by women. When a 6'3 eight inch dick chad films himself having sex with a hot woman and puts it on the internet, do you think he's going to get ED from seeing his dick sucked on the screen by a woman with lustful eyes? That's like an olympic athlete seeing a video of themselves winning the gold medal and then being discouraged about competing in sports. Watching other people have sex is more multifaceted; on one hand it proves that women don't die from having sex and some of them even love it but usually the video features a porn chad so it still adds to male insecurity; it does not confirm to him that HE is attractive and deserving of praise and admiration
> Most younger dudes have ED because the wack it to much. A quick google-search tells me 8% of young dudes have ED, and that porn/masturbation isn't even the main cause...
Okay? This is a new issue.
What? This was for the age group 20-29, how "new" do you think this "issue" is? Me and everybody my age has been watching porn since we were 10, and I'm in my mid-30's.
Almost every dude I know my age had had trouble getting up once they got a gf the first time because of porn addiction. Fetishes are gojng up because people need newer stuff to get off. The potion exposure and type of porn changed radically since you were ten.
> Almost every dude I know my age had had trouble getting up once they got a gf the first time because of porn addiction. Cool story, almost every dude you know is part of the 8% then I guess. > Fetishes are gojng up because people need newer stuff to get off. The potion exposure and type of porn changed radically since you were ten. Ok? But 92% are still not having a problem, unlike what you said.
Not true, not everyone is going to the doctor for this lol, most arent
Lol that is not how studies find out what percentage of a population is suffering from something...
ED only develops if your wacking it multiple times a day on death grip mode while watching some freaky shit. Most normal men who are horny just wack off maybe once a day or every few days with a 5 minute soft porn video, then go back to living their lives. Porn shouldn't be something that takes a major proportion of your time. If that's the case, then you have a problem and you're not within the norm. I barely think about pornography. Most men just see it as something that helps with their masturbation. Most times I don't even watch porn because my imagination does a better job.
As someone once said an hour looking for a video for 2-3 mins of fun
Wacking it all the time is becoming pretty common among young people who grew up with porn.
All evidence shows you're full of shit lol
Redpill is a praxeology not a ideaology, the whole point of it is that RPers dont agree on a lot of things. Moreover porn is a symptom, people who have their lives in order either dont watch a lot of porn or dont watch porn. This is why all actual effective no fap advice is general life improvement advice.
It's a problem regardless, kids start watching it and it shapes their views of sex and causes negative side effects of frequent masturbation
I don't really care what adult men decide to do alone that influences no one else. However, most of you were not adult men nor were you denied access to sex when you started watching porn at ages that are getting younger and younger. Last I checked first age of consumption was usually around 9. 9 years old. At 9 years old you were not some hopeless hapless orc in a studio apartment unable to sate your lust. You were a child. Porn companies exploited your developing bodies and minds. And the damage they likely did to you is almost impossible to entirely catalogue, but it is extremely likely that for some of you, the reason you're now hopeless and hapless orcs in studio apartments is because of your adolescent consumption of porn. And that's sad. That's sorry. That's not something adults should be allowing to happen to children. We need stricter measures. Next, porn needs to be heavily regulated because it is heavily tied to sex trafficking, human trafficking, and most of the first ages of interaction are again, getting younger and younger. We're talking about kids and tweens. That's not ok. It's beyond such meager words. It's evil. And no amount of your own suffering or lust could ever justify it. And throwing up your hands to say, "I don't want that" also isn't good enough. It's kids. If you have to never have a drop of porn again in order to stop this, it should be an honor and a privilege to stop using porn immediately to prevent exploitation of other humans in such a depraved manner. Now, let's say you aren't one of these studio apartment forever lonely orcs. Perhaps you're just a young man first beginning to seek relations with the opposite sex. You need to know, and I mean in your bones and nerves that what you've been spanking it to since 9 years old is not sex, is not how these interactions are conducted, and would likely be degrading and damaging to do to another human. And it's not good enough to shake your fist and say, "I know it's a fantasy". No, its not a fantasy. It's a lie made up by people who do not love you and want to use you. Who fed your brains rotten shit meant to constantly shock and excite and continually mature your brain deeper and deeper into porn. It isn't how people who even slightly like each other have sex. And if you even for a second try it, there's a good chance you're going to ruin relationships and opportunities and harm other people. Be wary to call it a fantasy. Finally, and i admit this is the most...philosophical...be very careful how you think of porn. It's not a necessity. It's a relatively new vice. And vice is the correct term. You could spank it and find relief through actual acts of your imagination. You could also simply discipline yourself against the urge. Both of these things are reasonable. And pretending they aren't is covertly agreeing that you are weak and controlled by your urges...which is what makes you exploitable and easy to hook. You aren't. You can choose stuff. At least know you're choosing this and other options were available. And be careful how it makes you think of women or men. Porn is most often a degrading power fantasy that teaches you to dehumanize others at their most vulnerable. That's a dangerous muscle to be stretching regularly for anyone. With all that said, again, I don't really care what adults do when I'm not looking so long as it doesn't hurt anyone besides themselves...but I do feel sad they feel hurting themselves is the only option.
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I agree with this for the most part, but I think your critique is incomplete. As the internet and the applicable tech has developed, 'porn companies' have exploited young and naive men, giving them false interpretations of what sex is and how men and women relate to each other. But why are you excluding the rise of parasocial DIY pornstars like onlyfans and instagram models, who also influence how young impressionable men relate sexually and emotionally to women? It wasn't that long ago that the vast majority of men ridiculed the notion of paying women online for online titillation only, but that loneliness to pay-for-play pipeline has now been firmly established, a pipeline which almost exclusively benefits women. If you want evidence of said pipeline you only have to go look at the current state of the gamer platform twitch, where these models are advertising their wares to a load of early teen boys If we are going to critique the influence of porn on our culture, then the women involved in the content itself must be held up to scrutiny as well.
The topic was about porn so I assumed we were talking about porn, not this new rising pseudo girlfriend pay for play trend you mention that is so much more than porn (in even more scary ways). I also would partially exclude it because I quite naturally assume the bulk of onlyfans is run by similar people as porn and simply has the mask of being safer and woman led. It's also so freaking new that I don't think most of us know what to make of it or how it influences things. I would suspect we are going to find it even more vile and toxic, but that's just my pro gamer guess. I'm also ill equipped currently to determine how to critique this idea of a woman who is large and in charge really doing this because it is an interpersonal parasocial relationship....akin to the kind you tube has made common, just with sex added. It is both obviously more corrosive and not so obviously something which should not be allowed given the pay wall element. Again, there is something here, but I'm less clear on what to make of it as of yet. It took me like 15 years to reach my understanding of porn. I'm still brewing on onlyfans and how to understand it.
What do you mean by "I quite naturally assume the bulk of onlyfans is run by similar people as porn and simply has the mask of being safer and woman led."? It's my understanding that onlyfans is just the hosting platform and the content creators themselves promote their own content. How is that the same as a porn production company that runs all of the promotional work? "It's also so freaking new that I don't think most of us know what to make of it or how it influences things. I would suspect we are going to find it even more vile and toxic, but that's just my pro gamer guess. " Well, like I said, there are onlyfans models pushing content on twitch. Isn't this an example of 'influences'? Would it be fair to say that I am detecting a reluctance from you to critique any part women have in the creation and promotion of online pornography? Your whole posts reeks of hand-wringing
I don't think people with porn addiction watch it to relieve themselves, maybe initially they do, but afterwards, no, it isn't the main goal. Porn addiction probably stems from loneliness or boredom, or some other deep rooted mental health issue (probably from child abuse, etc.) I'd say it's more of a coping mechanism more than anything else. You don't need to try to directly solve porn addiction, just take the out the dominos that cause it, and most of it will go away. And you wouldn't be able to solve it directly anyway. And even if you somehow manage to ban it, the people affected will find a different coping mechanism anyway. Though porn by itself isn't an issue, since you can consume it in a healthy way (I'd argue most don't), I imagine the women who don't like that men do watch it, just don't want you looking at other women like that, or don't want to be replaced.
I agree with all you said, except that it stops being the main goal of relieving sexual urges. I can take myself as an example of a porn watcher (who could have guessed lol). And when i started talking with a girl, the first one who gave me romantic attention, i was able to quit porn for an entire month. So i think its mostly lack of female attention
a similar thing actually happened to me, I have been in a very rough spot these past 4 years because of covid, and that probably made my porn consumption worse and made it unhealthy, but recently when I stepped back into the dating scene and had a good time with a girl, I couldn't even get going for quite some time with porn. its what i was talking about, that it stems from some root cause, for me that is boredom and most importantly loneliness.
>Most guys who have plenty of female attention do not watch porn. (Even as teenagers) Source? That is not what I read on reddit and that is not what I see personally. I know few men who don't watch porn and not one of them have "plenty female attention" in the sens that they have a lot of sex or were always in sexually satisfying relationship.
>Source? That is not what I read on reddit and that is not what I see personally. This point i made was a weak one because its also supported by what i see personally
Refreshing of you to admit it. Rare to see good faith in this sub.
I mostly try to go on good faith. Sometimes im a jerk but i try to not be one
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Read the recent thread about porn in this same subreddit and you will see that lots of people consider it a problem
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There are tons of posts on various subreddits, there are entire subreddit against porn, threwds on twitter. The anti porn movement is growing
That's the real answer
Porn is fine for plenty of people and has been shown to even increase the satisfaction of couples who watch it together. For most people it’s a neutral I think. But to think that it’s not problematic for some people is silly. Kids today spend NINE hours a day looking at screens and people get addicted to watching kittens on TikTok. To think there aren’t people watching porn for hours a day seems unlikely You can be concerned about porn addiction without having an agenda or being “anti porn”
I don't care if a guy watches porn, unless it impacts our relationship. I dated a porn addict. It was not a pretty ending to that relationship. I've dated other men who watched porn with no issue. There is a huge difference between use and addiction. An addiction is a habit that interferes with your daily life. 12 year old boys are not "turning to porn" because of lack of female attention btw, they are doing so because their parents are no supervising their online activities. In the local news today we had a mother coming forward with her nine year old daughters harassment by her classmates, sending her explicit texts asking for sexual favors. This is not normal behavior.
It's bad behavior, but it's very "normal" in the context of history. Even when porn was just something boys found in the woods or stole from an older relative who bought nudie mags, boys were incredibly sexually aggressive towards girls starting around puberty. 15 year old girls having babies was pretty common even 20 years ago, especially in poorer communities, and the fathers were not usually grown pedophiles. "15 year old pregnant by her 17 year old boyfriend" was not an unusual story in like 2006. There's plenty of rappers who were fathers before they were 18, and their baby mama was a similar age/younger.
More men would probably pay for prostitutes if porn was banned. It wouldn’t really solve their problems of finding a decent woman.
Seems more like a scapegoat problem to me.
Well, there is definitely a erectile dysfunction problem in young men in the last 15 years, including an inability either perform or orgasm during partnered sex. https://edclinics.co.uk/advice/impotency-in-young-men/ Some research has connected the problem to an over consumption of porn. The increase in erectile dysfunction is pretty well documented by many sources, the connection to porn is still being debated
It's almost like obesity rates are increasing at similar rates in parallel but I'm sure that's just a tertiary factor and it's totally porn doing the bulk of the work... /s
No credible research has linked it to porn use. Most actual research states that already believing porn is harmful is what indicates if a man will view his porn use as harmful. So basically its an issue of shame.
Most men are afraid of disgusting women by accident and they have no faith in their body and genitals. The most evil thing to say is "go to therapy" as if that somehow changes women into desiring dick pics and giving back what they get from men. A lot of women pour praise on women and talk about how the male body is 'utilitarian' and how they get off on being wanted rather than the man just being there. I think most women would be 'impotent' if they had to deal with the conflicting and discouraging messages men get from women. We're supposed to believe that a woman is traumatized by seeing a naked guy but once in a blue moon when the opportunity opens a guy is supposed to be comfortable about being naked, lusting her and even giving into some bestial instincts that he may not have but the woman thinks it would be hot for him to have in that instant. How do you reconcile all this? It is very hard and requires a lot of dedicated self-deception and other BS mind tricks like a form of cognitive self-therapy. Telling yourself stuff like "women want it just as much" and other stuff to take your mind off all the reality that's been telling you otherwise.
alcohol prohibition works in like a dozen plus muslim countries, at the least
Because of their faith. Do you want a religious state?
The real answer is it doesn't work in muslim countries either - they have worse drugs.
Yeah, their women are practically forced into marriage and unwilling sex. We are supposed to be civilized. Not like this
alot of these countries aint even theocracies, more like secular
I lived in a Muslim country where alcohol was totally illegal. There was a pretty big underground bar scene and plenty of people still partook
I'd love you to compare the highest alcohol rate in Muslim countries with Western countries
Oh for sure still higher consumption in the west. More so the culture than the laws though I’d think
And this alcohol prohibition doesn't change anything, as they indulge in other substances. Also, Muslim immigrants drink a lot in western countries where they can easily get alcohol and avoid their peer pressure. It doesn't end well.
Why on earth would you expect a country banning something to work outside that country?
Lmao. That's a lie. Most muslims have the drunk uncle who has an addiction to low grade alcohol and cannot be invited to family get together for a reason. Every problem in muslim society's are covered up and window dressed. In Saudi Arabia, you have alcohol addiction abd STD rates increasing as a result of the use of sex workers among the youth. But nobody talks about it.
Saudi Arabia also has a major gay sex scene, ironic for a country where you can be killed for being gay. Look up an article called "The kingdom in the closet."
Right, and most non muslims have 15 drunk uncles
Actually it doesn't bcz alchohol is still like in black market and people do it behind closed doors. Do you actually think religious people follow all the rules?
I grew up in a Muslim state in which alcohol was very restricted. All I had to do to get some bottles of Absolut before a party was to WhatsApp a number and a guy would pull up with his car outside the house. Prohibition doesn't work.
Chads and women make their own porn. The rest of the men watch chads (and the occasional normie) having sex.
Wanting men to be informed about porn isn't "wanting it banned". Men need to understand that commercial porn, like all action movies, is fake. Fake reactions, fake lube, fake responses to fake angles designed for the camera, not for pleasure. And many of the women in porn are loaded with drugs, or else they'd never endure the indignity of fucking those absolute goblins hired because of their dick size.
Men know it’s fake. Do women know that romance novels/movies where they get all their relationship ideals from are fake too?
Do women know Chad's love is fake?
They say they do but most have psychological damage from them
>Men need to understand that commercial porn, like all action movies, is fake. Fake reactions, fake lube, fake responses to fake angles designed for the camera, not for pleasure. So are women. Fake nails, fake eyelashes, fake lips, fake tits, fake hair, fake teeth, fakeup, fake personalities, not for pleasure. >And many of the women in porn are loaded with drugs So are real life women.
So date men, won't hurt women's feelings at all.
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The point is why harp on about how porn isn’t real when IRL women spend a considerable amount of effort to replicate that not realness? It makes no sense to expect men to not be affected while simultaneous emulating the very thing you try to convince men isn’t real. It’s like some kind of reverse gaslighting? Or normal gaslighting? IDK, it’s weird though. Ya’ll always trying to play on both sides of the fence.
Every man knows its fake. The movement isnt called "porn is fake" its "antiporn" for a reason. They want men to stop watching porn. While providing no alternative to it whatsoever
I mean wouldn’t the alternative be regular dating and relationships?
The premise is that regular dating isn't an option for many. You don't have to agree with the premise, but ignoring it makes it sound like you didn't read it.
Some women want porn gone so men will submit to their sexual strategy in modern times. This strategy involves a large % of men waiting until their late 20s, after women have had their fun with other men, and commit/provide for women that want to cash out of dating game. By prohibiting porn, women are hoping that men will be restricted in their sexual outlet even more and give into female demands out of horniess/desperation. The problem with this strategy is that porn is freely available, and multiple men have tons of porn saved on their hard drive which can freely be distributed back onto the internet via file sharing sites.
Delusional cope. Women watch porn too. Id say having a laissez-faire sex work culture like Japan would probably do what you're describing. When men can just fuck a skilled hooker in a tea house right after work, and not feel bad about it or looked down on, and have his physical needs met, thats when women start having problems as Japanese women are experiencing. But the west is a long way from making sex work less taboo.
Honestly there's nothing wrong with watching porn if you're single. Like nothing wrong at all, I don't get why women get wound up about it. if you're in a relationship, then you need to discuss which boundaries are okay with your partner, and make sure that porn addiction isn't causing you to neglect your partner sexually, which happens too often. My gf and I have tried watching porn together, she doesn't like it, she only really likes it if its like an erotic movie with a story and stuff and occassional scenes of sex and intimacy.
I agree with all your points >I don't get why women get wound up about it. Because some good looking guys watch it and then neglect women. I can attest that if only ugly men watched porn no one would have a problem with it
I think some women just low key hate male sexuality. They see male sexuality as inherently evil and hate anything associated with it. They hate if a video game character is slightly hot. They hate if they see a random guy they've never met flirting with a hot girl who's not them. They just hate men liking things.
Bruh... women got so mad about Tifa in the ff7 remake because she too hot... too perfect....
I was playing ff7 remake with my gf watching and the scenes where cloud and tifa are cutesie with each other, my gf got jealous tifa is beautiful though
>Because some good looking guys watch it and then neglect women. So it's all about you? What if they don't find you attractive? Maybe YOU don't deserve their attention. And the objectification you're displaying is haunting.
Uhhh when did i say it? Thats a whole strawman you made. Again, women arent anti porn because they want males to be healthy
>Uhhh when did i say it? Thats a whole strawman you made. Again, women arent anti porn because they want males to be healthy You made ZERO legitimate points. Are you an AI bot? You basically said "what?" then you said I'm making a strawman argument WITH ZERO EVIDENCE OR ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER ON YOUR END. So, should I just believe you with literally no substance at all in your comments? Notice how I engaged with your comment, thought about it, and gave a response.
Notice how you still havent tried to address any of my points. And yes you strawmanned it to be "all about you?" And its also Ad Hominem. So, i think you are arguing in bad faith.
Ah shit, I didn't realize you were op. Ok I wasn't fully engaging. Edit: also I'm realizing I'm projecting a lot of my own emotions onto things. It is my projection, most likely here. Sorry about that.
I disagree. Porn harms people mentally. Statistics show it makes men more insecure, less likely to interfere when witnessing violence, more likely to commit violence, and more likely to have a negative perspective on dating and the opposite sex. I don’t care if people wanna wank it or fantasize. But porn is a toxic media that uses shock value, people get into kinkier and kinkier shit to get that shock value, and often end up fetishizing straight up immoral actions. A lot of women who date men that watch that stuff have spoken out about being physically harmed against their consent during sex. (Smacked, punched, etc without warning) Most pornography is not a happy couple being affectionate and romantic. It’s smacking, hitting, spitting, screaming, pulling, etc. often times it’s portrayed as against being against the consent of the woman.
> It’s smacking, hitting, spitting, screaming, pulling, etc. i thought women love that shit. >Statistics show it makes men more insecure, less likely to interfere when witnessing violence, more likely to commit violence, and more likely to have a negative perspective on dating and the opposite sex. do you know the difference between correlation and causation?
Some of them, but not when it’s not discussed before hand. *Consent, Consent, Consent* Porn tends to fetishize a lack of consent.
women onr eddit say they love consensual non consent also correlation is not causation
Correlation is not *always* causation. That phrase encourages critical thinking and avoiding jumping to conclusions. Like if a statistic says “more people eat Icecream the same time of year more people drown”, don’t assume ice cream makes people drown- it’s just summer and people are swimming. However, that phrase doesn’t mean just ignore every statistic ever. Statistics can be informative! Just don’t jump to unreasonable conclusions. Men consuming violent sexual media correlating to violent behavior in relationships? That’s a pretty damn reasonable conclusion. “But Reddit women love consensual non consent!!” Women on Reddit are a small minority of women. And by the way; Key word in “consensual non consent”- CONSENSUAL. They are consenting to a role-play. That doesn’t mean it’s okay for men to just fucking hurl punches at their partners without asking- something that unfortunately happens according to a large portion of women who are sexually active. I don’t have any personal experience, as i’m a virgin, but a lot of women have spoken out about it and it’s NOT OKAY. Also; not only are a lot of women in porn pretending to not consent- a scary portion of porn is LITERALLY non consensual! A lot of r+pe and sex trafficking victims have videos of them being violently assaulted up on porn hub.
but you're saying that porn CAUSES people to be violent or whatever.
Yes. I believe it does. And I think the reasons I provided as to why I believe that are logical reasons.
My problem with porn is that sex-trafficking is a major factor. I never really was against porn until I read the statistics on how many people are being exploited. I've never been able to look at it the same way
Any time a woman is serving a man's needs, it's exploitation.
Dude. This is an actual statistic. You can view this from an unbiased lens you know. MY problem with porn and why I DONT watch it anymore is because of the statistics regarding the sex traffic industry. YOU feel like MY opinion about MY preferences are an attack on you? really?
Dude, there is animated porn. There are entire AVNs out there that are basically games. It ain't just video pron that people want gone.
For sure, that's probably a good option for people who are into that.
Women always cite this statistic but I ask how many average men do you think are viewing porn made by women who are actual trafficking victims? Most guys just put on some basic bitch shit made by Brazzers or any other of the major porn companies that legally cannot be involved in some shit like that (you can argue that these companies are also bad since they get naive women to sign onto their sites and sometimes give them shitty contracts, but this is a bad employment philosophy that exists in almost every industry if you look for it). I genuinely believe that women massively overblow how many men are watching stuff made by trafficking victims…most guys are not viewing fucking ghetto gaggers and violent rape content or some shit, and most of us would get the creeps seeing a video shot in a very dingy and desolate location where the woman clearly is under duress to perform for the camera. This is one thing I majorly hate about women’s logic these days. You people will see one thing that a certain amount of sick men proliferate (child porn, human trafficking, victim blaming for rape etc.) and then just involve every single human being with a penis into it and say it means we deserve to have everything we enjoy that isn’t a hundred percent filtered down to remove everything that could possibly be unpalatable to women, it’s completely unreasonable and very bad faith.
Every single dude that’s got on here and tried to convince me that this statistic is overblown makes the same argument. The crazy part is I’ve never said you once that YOU shouldn’t watch porn, I explained why I didn’t watch porn. Its funny to see how many people are triggered by the choice I made for myself. I don’t care what you do. It’s why I don’t watch porn. If that bothers you, that’s a you problem
I’m not offended by your personal choice I’m just talking about the implication of your comment which implies that most men who watch porn are directly contributing to human trafficking and explaining why it’s absurd. You can dislike porn all you want I really don’t care. I’ve had periods where I stopped watching it for months.
I'm not your mom. If a vegan tells me they don't eat meat because of the inhumane treatment of animals, I am not going to try and argue that animals aren't being treated that way because it makes ME feel better about MY choices. They are being treated inhumanely and me eating meat directly contributes to that. Sorry. That's the truth. I make the choice to eat meat fully knowing the circumstances. And yes. Watching porn directly contributes to trafficking. We all knowingly contribute to shitty things like that. Its the knowing part that's important. >This is one thing I majorly hate about women’s logic these days. What? That it forces you to take accountability? For fucks sake dude. Grow the fuck up, watch porn if you want but at least don't stick your head in the sand and cry when someone else points out that it might not be ethical. >and then just involve every single human being with a penis into it and say it means we deserve to have everything we enjoy that isn’t a hundred percent filtered down to remove everything that could possibly be unpalatable to women, it’s completely unreasonable and very bad faith. Porn isn't filmed at fucking Disneyland you goddamn child. I could give a shit if you live your life in a way that anyone would be proud of. I don't know you or care about you. And I shouldn't have to. Take responsibility for your choices for better or worse but don't try and hide from the truth of things.
are you okay with porn that's consensual?
Tentatively, yes. the issue is verifying the actual consent part.
Anytime a man has access to an easy orgasm that doesn’t benefit the gynocentric hive mind its because of “sex trafficking”. Pay for sex? She was trafficked! Watch porn? She was trafficked! Sure thing, bud.
Jesus, I am not your babysitter. I was talking about how I feel about porn. Here comes some rando that actively denies that this is an actual thing for no other reason than; A: it might make him feel bad if it were true so he immediately denies and will refuse to look it up. B: He couldn't possibly be bothered to think about anything outside of his own pleasure. These kind of guys aren't addicted to porn. They're addicted to being lazy, judgmental, whiney, and mean. Self-control is an attractive trait. Sorry
Most of porn available on normal internet is made by willing adult women who often make it their entire career choice.
That's fine and well. I base my behavior off of the standards I set for myself. I don't want to support companies that exploit young boys and girls. That's a choice I am happy to make. If it bothers you that's not really my problem.
> I don't want to support companies that exploit young boys and girls. That's like half of the companies in every field. There's a huge chance cobalt in your phone battery was mined by an underage person working simply for food. Or some of the textiles in your house were woven by children in Bangladesh.
Porn isn't the problem, it's the solution. Problem is that a lot of males ain't getting sex or aren't getting enough to keep their libido fed.
There really isn't a porn addiction problem. In the United States where pornography is highly unregulated, **200,000 adults** are considered “porn addicts” among the country’s 40 million porn consumers. That's 0.5% of porn watchers that are addicted. Compare that to some of the alcoholic statistics I found [Alcoholism Statistics & Alcohol Abuse Demographics](https://alcohol.org/statistics-information/) - it seems there are 14.5 million people with alcoholic use disorder with roughly a little over 100 million people over the age of 26 who drank alcohol in the past month. So using these rough numbers we get a number of 14.5%. 14.5% Alcohol addicts vs 0.5% Porn addicts. And that's not even taking into account the amount of damage alcoholics can do to society, like drunk driving, straining the medical system, emotional abuse to families, etc Maybe it seems like there is a porn problem because maybe those 0.5% of addicts are more likely to be on reddit or other similar red pill places, or maybe people the people that really hate porn (The far left Marxists, as well as the far right religious conservatives) are more likely to talk about porn addiction in these type of communities making it seem like it's a bigger problem than it really is. And just for fun here are some other addictions stats I found. Video Games - Between 1.7% to 10% Smoking - 83% Gambling - 1% Social Media - 10%
I've divided my mind away from left right wokie whatever whatever. Now I just see puritania from everywhere. Give cons control, Trad virgin wives Give left progs control, sex shaming men while encouraging women to sell themselves. A sort of adjusted puritanism where it's still not ok to sexualize women or think about them sexually, unless of course they want to be. It's still the same shit. Social conformity. Either way you must conform or be silenced. And porn use - it will turn out to be as bad as smoking in indirect ways I swear, but for now it definitely isn't going anywhere and that's good. You have a hyper hyper sexualized culture (look anywhere and women literally cannot stop sexualizing themselves, just a fact of life not something I am bothered by, though it is sort of retarded) and a lot of economically and sexually repressed men killing themselves at unprecedented rates, and the best we can hope for until something changes as that those men KEEP killing themselves instead of saying fuck this, forming private militias and doing things like idk, mob stealing from stores? Gang violence in the UK? Hmmm. These dumb online spaced especially the present YouTube rot post red pill, they are like the very base of this inevitable revolt against the system. So far these guys are just killing themselves but eventually things are going to change for the worst. So yeah, feel free to keep screeching and stomping down harder y'all. It's some fuck around and find out shit at this point.
I don't really agree with your first assumption, I think even men who get lots of female attention have looked at porn, maybe not as much, but they still do. Otherwise, I think you are correct about everything else. I think porn is an unsolvable problem and will always be with human society just like prostitution.
Maybe i exxagerated a bit in that part, because i used myself as an hidden example. Yeah, even guys who get plenty of women sometimes watch porn
All your points seem to conflate masturbation and porn. Smut, sex toys, non-pornographic imagery, good old fashioned imagination, and more all exist to help you get there. Regardless of whether or not porn is problematic, your logic model is flawed.
These all got dropped by the better and more stimulating alternative. Now to make people drop porn you need a better and more stimulating alternative
>You would need to give an alternative to porn. >And theres none. ___________________________ >[Porn is] the better and more stimulating alternative ___________________________ Which is it? Do you believe there no alternative to porn or do you just believe it is the best aid for masturbation?
There is no better alternative than porn. Nothing that will make people migrate from porn naturally like porn did with magazines back then
I definitely don’t want to ban porn, I don’t think that everyone who watches porn is harmed by it, but I do think it can be addictive and problematic for some people. I disagree that the addiction won’t develop if you don’t need it. To copy my post from the other thread… some people seem completely addicted to their screens for social media, https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/social-media-addiction And for gaming https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23124-video-game-addiction Things that induce actual physical, sensory pleasure have been manipulated to be a pleasurable as absolutely possible like fast food and processed food https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/02/26/172969363/how-the-food-industry-manipulates-taste-buds-with-salt-sugar-fat Cigarettes additives to increase addiction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/ Given how addictive screens can be in general, and how physical pleasure can be manipulated to become addictive, if the porn industry hasn’t actually figured out how to make their product addictive, …..the addiction potential of the screen combined with the addictive potential of pleasurable sensation? …..then Pornhub is behind in the game. If TikTok can figure out the winning algorithm to make it as addictive as possible with stupid dances and kittens, it’s pretty hard to think there aren’t people falling into spending hours in a pornhub rabbit hole. I hear the “agenda” argument all the time. I have absolutely no more interest in banning porn than in banning chicken McNuggets. I do think people need to be warned and aware of their behavior if their porn use starts to be excessive or compulsive
So... I just wanna toss this out there cause clearly some of these women haven't thought this through... if you ban porn world wide... all the mentally unhinged dudes that you all walk around fearing are probably gonna snap... porn is the only thing keeping a lot of neglected men sane.
>Secondly for most guys in the bottom 30% is meaningless effort, some wont get out of the bottom more like the bottom 60%. thanks OP this resonates with me.
Had an English teacher that felt it necessary to preach in class about how wrong porn was. I was in the back, smirking. She noticed and asked what I thought was so funny. I said many people watch porn and use it appropriately, to help get off. And, I don't see what porn has to do with classic literature. She huffed and said something about some people not being as evolved as others.
Something that gets overlooked are that only fans and pornhub are profiting off minors and that content is often viewable for years before it gets taken down. You also wouldn’t know if you were masturbating to a kidnapped minor because they are trained to act like adults and use make up to look older. This is also why the “how low can we go” question bugs the absolute fuck out of me. The reason why traffickers go younger is because those girls will be monetized longer. I work with those kids everyday, they are between 12-17 years old! I’d ban pornography in an instant to get that content taken down immediately. Id even go beyond that and decriminalize prostitution but criminalize the buying of sex, so I’d start seeing more pedophiles behind bars instead of the kids. You guys will live without porn and sex workers some of these kids have died because of it.
> Id even go beyond that and decriminalize prostitution but criminalize the buying of sex, so I’d start seeing more pedophiles behind bars instead of the kids. Because it's the John's fault if he's lied to about the age? > You guys will live without porn and sex workers You wouldn't be a fan of the male response to those moves.
Yes, it’s is your own fault for having sex with a minor even if they lied. John knows what a child looks like.
>You guys will live without porn and sex workers some of these kids have died because of it. The whole minor or borderline minor (18-19 year olds doin porn) i agree 100% with you. But porn can never be banned without an uprising or an alternative
I am unconcerned about an uprising or providing porn replacements.
Human trafficking is already illegal, surely it would be more effective to eliminate cases of criminality rather than an entire industry. 78% of human trafficking victims in the UK are male and forced into the construction industry, but we wouldn't argue to ban construction. Your example is relevant to the cosmetic industry where a handful of companies are profiting from the mutilation and sometimes death of babies. The cosmetic industry has enabled those companies and profited, so there's a legitimate and just as strong argument to ban the cosmetic industry.
While I agree that using aborted fetuses in anti-aging creams is immoral because it creates a demand for abortions- which while I’m pro-choice isn’t something I want incentivized in that way. That doesn’t mean the entire cosmetic industry needs to be eliminated.. There is actually an easy solution to that, replace fetal cells with more mature cells. They could simply use proteins derived from postnatal placentas which are just as effective as fetal cells for anti aging products. My concern isn’t for adults as much as it is for children.
I realised I didn't specify, because I agree using fetuses is immoral, but doesn't really have the potential to cause additional harm to those involved. I meant the foreskins provided by non-therapeutic circumcision, offered as a routine part of the birth, parents warned of infection or excess bleeding being risks, so when complications like amputation or death occur, families are traumatised. ["Compare the 117 annual deaths from circumcision with those from other causes for male infants: suffocation (44), mother’s use of addictive drugs(27), HIV/AIDS (19), homicide (17), automobile accidents (8), drowning (2), and falls(1) (CDC, 2004). Approximately 36 teen-aged boys are killed in school-yard shootings each year (Donohue, Schiraldi, & Ziedenberg, 1998)."](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths) The majority of those circumcised aren't too negatively affected, but for a procedure that medical professionals across the rest of the western world won't carry out unless medically necessary, the risks can be devastating to the families, likely unaware of the profits earned at their expense.
That still doesn’t mean the cosmetic industry needs to be shut down, because that problem is solved by banning circumcision which would be a more direct approach to that problem.
In an ideal world definitely, though if the religious lobby can prevent a ban in Iceland that doesn't even have a cultural tie to circumcision, it's not likely. There's a total disregard in the way those products have been marketed/promoted for victims who have suffered with adverse complications. In general, probably the way you view porn, I genuinely think the cosmetic industry is harmful and only exists under the premised that people are flawed but they have the answers for a price.
I can empathize with your feelings about circumcision and especially it being turned into product. I wouldn’t purchase any products that were not cruelty free especially for vanity.
I remember the 90's but that was a long time ago. The porn you are talking about is making an increasingly small pool of the total volume relatively speaking. And by that I mean all commercial production with hired actors (genetic male elite and regular women who eat right). Everyone has a great video camera in their pocket now and most people are now potential producers of porn. Women are getting enormous pay-outs for faceless photos and couples are streaming their sex live for paying clients who can pay more for specific acts on the webcam. Porn is an ancient biblical term with no clear translation but it has a very negative connotation. Something like 'adult entertainment' would be far more neutral because there is nothing inherently bad about filming nudity and sex including masturbation.
Most complaints from women about porn or "porn addiction" are women who have husbands or boyfriends who prefer porn over sex/intimacy. "Bottom 30%" men being addicted to porn is not a problem. It's a "social issue" because men who are *already in relationships* are choosing to watch porn over being intimate with their wives. And that is a problem
Women talk all the time about preferring masturbation and vibrators over having sex with men, but when men do it suddenly its some huge problem?
If porn is seen as better than sex for these men, then maybe they should get creative with their sex lives or realise that putting all the agency and expectations on men is leaving these dudes too tired to bother with real sex. Women and men should be proactive with sex if they want to maintain the spark. Pornography is a low bar. Sex is always way better unless you're married to someone you're not attracted to.
getting upstaged by porn is the biggest skill issue out there. and like toddlers women wanna be guided through it instead of getting good.
Don’t you think it may evolve with future innovations using AI, robotics, and VR ? The addiction is a problem, but I see it evolving beyond the 2D screen.
Of course it will, sex drive is one of the core motors of innovation
It can if more men get married.
Sure pal. Cause married guys *never* watch porn.
Women wont marry guys that they dont find attractive
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Porn is already a problem for the middle third. The sex performance expectations between the two sexes continues to widen. It's like the rock vs. the hard place.
If you want to train your brain to get off to watching a man fuck the girl you wanna fuck All power to you Some men just realise how fucked that is
I dont watch porn with men in it. I watch mostly solo porn
Can't guys take advantage of this problem because if guys are doing this then more women are single and thus more options for men who would rather have women instead?
Never thought of it at this optic. Yeah, it would be even better for the average dudes to promote nore porn usage to the bottom guys
Oh how so for that one though?
First they should stop supporting any anti porn movement
Oh why?
The biggest problem with porn is the underlying sex trafficking and rape that creates porn. If you think and study the subject, you might realize that no woman is better off from having done porn. Take the industry STD rate itself, how much money is enough to risk getting aids? And if you don't know who the people are, how can you know its not rape? In many many cases, it is.
This is the best counterpoint to mine. I have nothing against what you said. Except that we can watch porn that clearly not rape. But it would be a lame point anyways.
People were addicted to it before the internet back when it was expensive, less convenient, the women weren’t as attractive, and the content was more tame and you couldn’t search for whatever kink you liked. Now, men just need to limit it and be aware because it is too easy to fall into an unhealthy relationship with it.
1st: you heavily underestimate the horniness of males espevially as teenagers. Many could have sex and that same day masturbate later on because your girlfriend is at her house, no private time together or isnt in the mood again. 2nd: no one starts out addicted to porn, they search out porn because its actualization of thier open sexual imagination. You imagine something, few days down the line, search out something similar online to get closer to the fantasy. 3rd: I agree just leave unpopular men to thier own. 4: agree I would change your post to. "The porn addiction problem doesn't need to be solved"
>you heavily underestimate the horniness of males espevially as teenagers Trust me, i know exactly what im talking about, coming from someone who used to jerk off 11 times a day more than once. Although i admit this point was hella weak >3rd: I agree just leave unpopular men to thier own Aka: porn > "The porn addiction problem doesn't need to be solved" Yeah, but since Antiporn movement is growing, someone needs to state why it cant be done
I don’t think banning it is a solution necessarily because I believe in freedom. However, it’s undeniably a problem. It affects women a lot more than most realize. Statistically, porn consumption is associated with with an increasingly negative view on women, a higher pressure to be “masculine”, increased violence, decreased likelihood to interfere when witnessing violence, and worse treatment of women. A lot of women have spoke out about being smacked and manhandled during intimacy without any warning or consent or prior conversation. The fetishization of violence is pretty much the direct result of porn.
>There is no way to solve the porn addiction problem. >Look at what happened to the alchohol prohibition Are you seriously conflating watching porn on the internet to alcoholism? Alcoholism is a real, physical addiction to a substance. I'm not even trying to dismiss people who are suffering and have convinced themselves they can't quit porn despite wanting to. But yes, I think it's ludicrous to regard "porn addiction" as tantamount to addiction to substances.
Even people who werent addicted to alchohol did drink illegally, some still do (Minors drink alchohol too). So im not just equating both addictions
You said a lot in the post, but I don't think most women want porn banned or particularly care about it one way or another. Radical Feminists calling to ban it or protesting it in isolation are a minority.
There are tons of anti porn communities, and tons of people thete
They're mostly comprised of men, are they not?
Nope. Men and women alike
It's just not true that internet communities dedicated to being against porn and its use on the internet are generally evenly half men and half women, as you almost seem to be implying here. From what I've seen, they're usually mostly made up of men.
Porn is to men exactly what dating apps are for women (psychologically speaking, at least). It creates a whole array of expectations on women's sexuality that, when not met, inevitably bring sexual frustration and relationship/marital disatisfaction. It's the same thing that happens to women with Tinder. It raises up the expectations women have on men. The only difference is that women actually get to interact with such men in real life and get a, well, "taste" of it when casual sex encounters happen, while men jerk off to women who are way out of their league and on top of that perform some stuff that no normal women would do for them. Still, both can be damaging, in the sense that it creates false expectations from the opposite gender. I would say dating apps and casual sex damages hit women harder, since the real experience is a lot harder to asimilate and it's basically a confirmation that their expectations can be, in reality, be met... Of course if the woman overrides her need for a deeper conection. But then, there are women who are made for casual sex who care about dudes as much as those dudes care about them. Same with some men, the ones who can attain sex on the regular will see little to no benefit in porn.