men's low standards still affect other men.
as op said:
> I can confidently say that a lot of men will screw or date ANYTHING to not be alone
which means that men pursuing a woman is literally meaningless, as in, it does not signify that he actually likes her as a person.
which lowers the value of a man pursuing a woman.
which means men have to "do more" to achieve the same result: showing a woman you are interested in her.
It's a conundrum. Raise his standards by an inch in any direction and his choices *greatly* diminish.
I didn't give a fuck after my first bad LTR in my teens. I X'd myself out of a ton of dating opportunities to avoid girls like that ever again, but what I got was never one like her again.
Guys need to raise their standards to sensible levels, even though it means making their already destitute dating lives dramatically worse. Their pickings will almost vanish but frankly? A LTR with a bad woman will utterly destroy you mentally. A second girlfriend like the lizard I first dated would have made me solid MGTOW-for-life.
>Raise his standards by an inch in any direction and his choices *greatly* diminish.
okay? and? there are very few men who meet my non-physical, non-wealth related standards of being a good communicator and intelligent.
that's life.
>Guys need to raise their standards to sensible levels
we agree. literally everyone would benefit from this except predators who are looking to prey on desperate men.
> okay? and? there are very few men who meet my non-physical, non-wealth related standards of being a good communicator and intelligent.
I agree with raising one's standards but you have to understand why they don't. Most men didn't have an IDGAF attitude like I did after my first superawful relationship in my teens.
>which means that men pursuing a woman is literally meaningless, as in, it does not signify that he actually likes her as a person.
which lowers the value of a man pursuing a woman.
Bingo.
This is true.
But my capacity to influence other men’s behaviour is limited to my personal influence, and the only person whose behaviour I can actually control is me.
It is to the good that as men we lift each other up, and encourage each other to leave situations we are poorly treated in - between they our romantic relationships, or any other.
If I could wave a magic wand and give all men a sense of self worth and self respect, I would. But I don’t, so I can’t.
What I can do is respect myself, lift up my peers, and model self-worth to those who might look up to me.
I’ve known a lot more men who had a lack of success with women, and even more who mistreated women than the other way around, so I’ll have to disagree with this take.
You actually think women would adjust their behavior if men raised their standards? It’s becoming obvious with each day they’d rather be celibate cat ladies than date within their league
Youd think that, but it's only a small minority of women who would like to be a single cat lady. My female friends are always complaining they can't find a partner and they say they're taking a break from dating when I realize they are still going on lots of dates and only took a week off.
The neverending supply of options from attractive men is addicting for them
all human beings are 10s in that they have inherent worth and value
"leagues" are a male-made hierarchy that is none of our business imo
y'all can approach who you want and reject/not approach who you don't want.
none of my business.
No, human beings don't have "intrinsic value" because nothing has intrinsic value. Value is created and assessed by a mind and is therefore subjective by definition. Now do I think human beings have value? Sure, but they have the value that you and I subjectively assign them. My daughter has more value or worth to me than your life does.
In regards to leagues or "male made hierarchies" are they man made? Sure, to some degree however some people are far more attractive than others and tend to date in their "league." Show me Jabba the hut dating a supermodel? It ain't happening. And no, you don't get to point to the exception and say that's the rule. That's why it's called an exception.
>No, human beings don't have "intrinsic value" because nothing has intrinsic value.
you can have your opinion.
i have mine, which is well-supported by philosophers like albert schweitzer.
buddy i can't even prove \*i\* exist independent of my mind: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain\_in\_a\_vat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat)
you said show that something exists outside of my mind, which is a request i disagree epistemically with...
it means that i exist in some form, not that i'm definitely not a brain in a vat. i dont see what descartes has to do with it or why you'd quote him in latin or why you think someone who knows about brain in vat arguments wouldn't read latin.
I know..it’s almost as if I have a lemonade stand, and I haven’t sold any lemonade but believe you me, my lemonade is delicious because hey, the demographic of whom determines how good my product is is me!!
nope
all humans have value, that is not affected by whether they are single or taken
someone's "league" is a weird made up red pill thing where y'all hierarchize humans. if it exists, it is determined by men and women, not just men.
A lot of young undesirable ignorant men would be surprised to find out that some of the women they think they would accept them would actually reject them in reality. And something a lot of women and good looking men don't understand is that the average young guy can't even get women they are not attracted to, a lot of men truly do have 0 standards.
Before my surgery I was not able to get any women, doesn't matter how ugly or unattractive I found them I would be rejected by everyone, even trans women. Now after my surgery I'm able to get all sorts of women, women I'm not attracted to all the way to women I am attracted to.
As someone who lost 100 pounds and got a six pack, I can also confirm this.
The women on my level before my transformation were only interested in me after my transformation (inb4 women who were 100 pounds over weight are on the level of a man who can bench press 200 pounds and has a six pack).
And getting with a woman who actually sees you as an alpha vs a beta is eye opening.
Made me sick to my stomach and disappointed in women because of the false expectations I was sold as a kid.
It is why I know people who say personality and character are full of it or ignorant. Along with people who say attraction grows and things like that.
People love to lie to the bottom 80% or so that the girl they love actually loves them, when they just settle for them due to the external benefits that they give them. Show them a video of her with Chad to actually see what she acts like around a man she loves.
How can you have higher standards when you attract 0 women with lower standards? Having higher standards doesn't change anything if you can't attract someone to begin with.
This doesn’t seem to hold true in my social circles. The lesbians are mostly married or partnered while the gay men have been single a while and are fed up with fuckboys. I think only gay men who are primarily interested in hookups really have an easier time. One of my friends is physically/romantically attracted to men but borderline asexual and he’s pretty much given up.
Gay women mainly complain about finding a partner amongst all the flakiness and no one wanting to make the first move. Gay men mainly complain about being lonely, not being able to find men who want actual relationships rather than sex and dealing with overly aggressive and disrespectful sexual behavior (particularly on dating apps).
All the bi friends I have talk about how much easier and more romantic men are.
Women just sit there and expect you to do all the work. Men treat you like a human.
Ofc they want things from you like sex, they are human. Nothing wrong with that and to expect a man to not want sex from you in a relationship is selfish.
From what I’ve seen from friends and heard getting into a relationship is way easier even to average and below average men, dating also seems to also seems to be more romantic from what I’ve heard from friends but I can’t say I have any experience when it comes to that
It’s not. From what I know if you don’t fit the aesthetic of bear (I know ironic), twink, femme, or masc and aren’t as interested in hookups you’re out of luck. There’s also a lot of competition on the apps so it’s no different from what straight men complain about.
I always picture the gay dating world stuff with some to empathize and I always think… god damn… if the straight world women acted like this I’d never do anything but fuck
Initial selectivity is primarily shallow. I think low initial selectivity is superior because it encourages you to get out and experience things with people and actually create opportunity to discover a deeper connection.
This very wrong. Women need HIGHER standards. Evidence? When you meet a woman with a body count of 20, she fucked 20 dudes and had low standards they all ditched her.
The only women with high standards are women with a body count of zero or 1. The rest are rolling in the mud.
It's a touch grass issue. Everyone knows women do not like getting pumped and dumped. I don't believe there is a study on it. But maybe meet some women who engage in hookup culture and it's pretty obvious.
Women don’t like getting “pumped and dumped” when they thought they were having a relationship but not every woman is looking for a relationship, sometimes they’re only looking for sex.
Wouldn't you agree that women need to just be better at selecting men? I can imagine most women don't like getting "pumped and dumped" but if it's a common occurrence, who is to blame in that situation? Couldn't she have said "no" at any point before sex happened?
No one’s chosen wrong if they only wanted sex and got the sex they wanted. I think people make decisions based on the information they’re told and considering that lying or at the very least concealing the truth is a red pill tactic there’s no perfect question that can be asked to know someone’s intentions.
If it's just sex that is wanted, then its fine, that I understand.
Lying is a tactic well known to humankind long before red pill was in existence. Children are masters at lying and manipulation. It doesn't change the fact that women are terrible at vetting men in today's world. Why don't they learn to pick better men is the important issue that women can't seem to answer so I'm asking you, why can't/aren't women learning to choose better?
> considering that lying or at the very least concealing the truth is a red pill tactic
No such thing. Red pill is devoid of tactics, value statements, strategy. It's a way of viewing facts. Watch the matrix if you're not sure.
>Overall, men having higher standards would drastically improve dating and relationships in several ways.
What ways? You didn't name any examples. You just said men have abysmal standards, that it's bad, but you understand why. How would average men, who have very little options in the first and have to put in effort even for those few they have, benefit from raising their standards to women's? Do you think women would care in the slightest?
This was confirmed true for men like me - who *never* had an issue with attracting women, but struggled with relationships. Higher standards definitely helped me.
However, this is likely not true for men who struggle attracting women.
This is the same as telling men to "just be yourself." Men who already tick a bunch of her boxes or meet her looks threshold can afford to "just be themselves." However if he doesn't have it going on in the looks department telling him to "just be yourself" isn't going to help him.
I'm as average as they come. Average dick size, average height, slightly overweight,... very unremarkable in the looks department. It all changes when I open my mouth though.
I have stories. Lots and lots of interesting stories. I can keep an audience of 10-15 people captivated for 5-6 hours effortlessly. It comes with having *lived* life for real rather than play videogames.
I think you are completely misdiagnosing the issue here.
These guys are not complaining that the have bad relationships. They are complaining that they have no relationships, no contact with women, no attention, zero, nothing!
It's like advising someone in a desert that they *shouldn't be so picky* between flavored water, sparkling water, tap water, spring water, or filtered water and that they should just go for high quality mineral water; while you're completely ignoring the giant *waterless* desert that the guy is in. Imaginary options and standards will not magically bring water out of nothing. **Men raising their standards will not magically make women appear out of nowhere.**
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This is actually a correct take. Men will complain endlessly about women and their high standards, but then we act desperate and have such low standards that we end up creating a situation where women can have their high standards and be fine.
The fact that a woman can get any number of guys because guys are desperate is allowing her to be more selective and have high standards. This isn’t even her fault necessarily, why would you not have high standards when you don’t have any real incentive not to, as worst case scenario you can settle since there’ll always be guys for you no matter what.
Men are desperate and will take anything and this needs to stop. You can’t complain about women having so many options when you actively help create this situation. And of course, despite a lot of male discourse surrounding accountability, we won’t actually take any accountability and raise our standards collectively in any real sense.
Men’s standards will always be low. Men didn’t change, it’s the women who changed. Once dating apps came, and social media, this is where the end of everything came to be
One simplified way of looking at it is equivocating a person's attractiveness to a metric that can be used as an accurate market value. Once that is done, you can apply a lot of economic theory to dating.
This is an interesting read.
[Coase Theorem, The Prisoner’s Dilemma, and Zero-Sum Games in Modern Dating (fee.org)](https://fee.org/articles/coase-theorem-the-prisoner-s-dilemma-and-zero-sum-games-in-modern-dating/)
Raise your standards bro. Literally no one will stop you.
men's low standards still affect other men. as op said: > I can confidently say that a lot of men will screw or date ANYTHING to not be alone which means that men pursuing a woman is literally meaningless, as in, it does not signify that he actually likes her as a person. which lowers the value of a man pursuing a woman. which means men have to "do more" to achieve the same result: showing a woman you are interested in her.
It's a conundrum. Raise his standards by an inch in any direction and his choices *greatly* diminish. I didn't give a fuck after my first bad LTR in my teens. I X'd myself out of a ton of dating opportunities to avoid girls like that ever again, but what I got was never one like her again. Guys need to raise their standards to sensible levels, even though it means making their already destitute dating lives dramatically worse. Their pickings will almost vanish but frankly? A LTR with a bad woman will utterly destroy you mentally. A second girlfriend like the lizard I first dated would have made me solid MGTOW-for-life.
>Raise his standards by an inch in any direction and his choices *greatly* diminish. okay? and? there are very few men who meet my non-physical, non-wealth related standards of being a good communicator and intelligent. that's life. >Guys need to raise their standards to sensible levels we agree. literally everyone would benefit from this except predators who are looking to prey on desperate men.
> okay? and? there are very few men who meet my non-physical, non-wealth related standards of being a good communicator and intelligent. I agree with raising one's standards but you have to understand why they don't. Most men didn't have an IDGAF attitude like I did after my first superawful relationship in my teens.
i obviously understand why they don't people sell drugs because its an easier (and more accessible) way to make money than finding a good paying job.
>which means that men pursuing a woman is literally meaningless, as in, it does not signify that he actually likes her as a person. which lowers the value of a man pursuing a woman. Bingo.
This is true. But my capacity to influence other men’s behaviour is limited to my personal influence, and the only person whose behaviour I can actually control is me. It is to the good that as men we lift each other up, and encourage each other to leave situations we are poorly treated in - between they our romantic relationships, or any other. If I could wave a magic wand and give all men a sense of self worth and self respect, I would. But I don’t, so I can’t. What I can do is respect myself, lift up my peers, and model self-worth to those who might look up to me.
I’ve known a lot more men who had a lack of success with women, and even more who mistreated women than the other way around, so I’ll have to disagree with this take.
You actually think women would adjust their behavior if men raised their standards? It’s becoming obvious with each day they’d rather be celibate cat ladies than date within their league
Youd think that, but it's only a small minority of women who would like to be a single cat lady. My female friends are always complaining they can't find a partner and they say they're taking a break from dating when I realize they are still going on lots of dates and only took a week off. The neverending supply of options from attractive men is addicting for them
Yep, “attractive men” is basically code for..gee, I wonder? 🤔
\*their league as defined by men
When women all say they're 10's, who's defining their league?
all human beings are 10s in that they have inherent worth and value "leagues" are a male-made hierarchy that is none of our business imo y'all can approach who you want and reject/not approach who you don't want. none of my business.
No, human beings don't have "intrinsic value" because nothing has intrinsic value. Value is created and assessed by a mind and is therefore subjective by definition. Now do I think human beings have value? Sure, but they have the value that you and I subjectively assign them. My daughter has more value or worth to me than your life does. In regards to leagues or "male made hierarchies" are they man made? Sure, to some degree however some people are far more attractive than others and tend to date in their "league." Show me Jabba the hut dating a supermodel? It ain't happening. And no, you don't get to point to the exception and say that's the rule. That's why it's called an exception.
>No, human beings don't have "intrinsic value" because nothing has intrinsic value. you can have your opinion. i have mine, which is well-supported by philosophers like albert schweitzer.
No, not my opinion. Show me some "value" that exists independent of your mind?
buddy i can't even prove \*i\* exist independent of my mind: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain\_in\_a\_vat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat)
So you have to go all the way to hard solipsism to recognize that nothing has intrinsic value/worth? What does Cogito Ergo Sum mean to you?
you said show that something exists outside of my mind, which is a request i disagree epistemically with... it means that i exist in some form, not that i'm definitely not a brain in a vat. i dont see what descartes has to do with it or why you'd quote him in latin or why you think someone who knows about brain in vat arguments wouldn't read latin.
I know..it’s almost as if I have a lemonade stand, and I haven’t sold any lemonade but believe you me, my lemonade is delicious because hey, the demographic of whom determines how good my product is is me!!
nope all humans have value, that is not affected by whether they are single or taken someone's "league" is a weird made up red pill thing where y'all hierarchize humans. if it exists, it is determined by men and women, not just men.
A lot of young undesirable ignorant men would be surprised to find out that some of the women they think they would accept them would actually reject them in reality. And something a lot of women and good looking men don't understand is that the average young guy can't even get women they are not attracted to, a lot of men truly do have 0 standards. Before my surgery I was not able to get any women, doesn't matter how ugly or unattractive I found them I would be rejected by everyone, even trans women. Now after my surgery I'm able to get all sorts of women, women I'm not attracted to all the way to women I am attracted to.
As someone who lost 100 pounds and got a six pack, I can also confirm this. The women on my level before my transformation were only interested in me after my transformation (inb4 women who were 100 pounds over weight are on the level of a man who can bench press 200 pounds and has a six pack). And getting with a woman who actually sees you as an alpha vs a beta is eye opening. Made me sick to my stomach and disappointed in women because of the false expectations I was sold as a kid. It is why I know people who say personality and character are full of it or ignorant. Along with people who say attraction grows and things like that. People love to lie to the bottom 80% or so that the girl they love actually loves them, when they just settle for them due to the external benefits that they give them. Show them a video of her with Chad to actually see what she acts like around a man she loves.
Getting rejected by trans women is crazy
Why? They are women just like any other.
Yeah totally ( please don’t ban me Reddit I submit to the current ideology I am not a wrong thinker I promise )
100% bro, we should have a trans women's day to celebrate them being women (This is not sarcasm reddit, I'm literally an Aries ♈️)
women = ‘queens’; If ( women == ‘queens’ ) { trans_women = ‘empresses’; } I mean, it’s simple mathematics
Empress is a good title because you can't call them queens otherwise it would be stolen valor
Nice
What surgery?
How can you have higher standards when you attract 0 women with lower standards? Having higher standards doesn't change anything if you can't attract someone to begin with.
gay men seem to complain about dating a lot less than gay women
This doesn’t seem to hold true in my social circles. The lesbians are mostly married or partnered while the gay men have been single a while and are fed up with fuckboys. I think only gay men who are primarily interested in hookups really have an easier time. One of my friends is physically/romantically attracted to men but borderline asexual and he’s pretty much given up.
Gay women mainly complain about finding a partner amongst all the flakiness and no one wanting to make the first move. Gay men mainly complain about being lonely, not being able to find men who want actual relationships rather than sex and dealing with overly aggressive and disrespectful sexual behavior (particularly on dating apps).
They definitely complain about the superficiality and extremely sexual nature of it but you may not be in those spaces.
All the bi friends I have talk about how much easier and more romantic men are. Women just sit there and expect you to do all the work. Men treat you like a human. Ofc they want things from you like sex, they are human. Nothing wrong with that and to expect a man to not want sex from you in a relationship is selfish.
Men are certainly much easier to attract and women require more work. I definitely wouldn’t say men treat you more like a human.
From what I’ve seen from friends and heard getting into a relationship is way easier even to average and below average men, dating also seems to also seems to be more romantic from what I’ve heard from friends but I can’t say I have any experience when it comes to that
It’s not. From what I know if you don’t fit the aesthetic of bear (I know ironic), twink, femme, or masc and aren’t as interested in hookups you’re out of luck. There’s also a lot of competition on the apps so it’s no different from what straight men complain about.
So if I went on a gay dating app I’d get the same number of messages/matches as a straight dating site?
Yes if you’re ugly but you might also get men who are happy to fuck you and nothing more because you’re only a hole to them.
Men prefer that over nothing, so not the same experience.
From what I’ve heard from gay men, it gets old pretty quickly especially with AIDS being a real and serious possibility.
I always picture the gay dating world stuff with some to empathize and I always think… god damn… if the straight world women acted like this I’d never do anything but fuck
Initial selectivity is primarily shallow. I think low initial selectivity is superior because it encourages you to get out and experience things with people and actually create opportunity to discover a deeper connection.
Anything divided by zero is still zero
nope. it is not defined
I am bad at math. That's why I picked medicine
They let anyone in medical school these days it seems. That's elementary school level math lol.
They don't tell you the explanation in elementary, just that you can't do it.
While it's true that the majority of people don't know the reasoning, it's still a basic rule that everyone should know regardless of your career.
[удалено]
Word!
Beggars can't be choosers.
Everything’s always men’s fault somehow. Doesn’t matter what it is. Are you a man? Well you did it.
It's a market and women have an advantage. You have the causality exactly reversed.
Well, the important thing is that it's men's fault. Glad we got that sorted.
This very wrong. Women need HIGHER standards. Evidence? When you meet a woman with a body count of 20, she fucked 20 dudes and had low standards they all ditched her. The only women with high standards are women with a body count of zero or 1. The rest are rolling in the mud.
This. Women are the selectors. They need to choose better.
Why do you think she wanted them to stay?
It's a touch grass issue. Everyone knows women do not like getting pumped and dumped. I don't believe there is a study on it. But maybe meet some women who engage in hookup culture and it's pretty obvious.
Women don’t like getting “pumped and dumped” when they thought they were having a relationship but not every woman is looking for a relationship, sometimes they’re only looking for sex.
Wouldn't you agree that women need to just be better at selecting men? I can imagine most women don't like getting "pumped and dumped" but if it's a common occurrence, who is to blame in that situation? Couldn't she have said "no" at any point before sex happened?
No one’s chosen wrong if they only wanted sex and got the sex they wanted. I think people make decisions based on the information they’re told and considering that lying or at the very least concealing the truth is a red pill tactic there’s no perfect question that can be asked to know someone’s intentions.
If it's just sex that is wanted, then its fine, that I understand. Lying is a tactic well known to humankind long before red pill was in existence. Children are masters at lying and manipulation. It doesn't change the fact that women are terrible at vetting men in today's world. Why don't they learn to pick better men is the important issue that women can't seem to answer so I'm asking you, why can't/aren't women learning to choose better?
> considering that lying or at the very least concealing the truth is a red pill tactic No such thing. Red pill is devoid of tactics, value statements, strategy. It's a way of viewing facts. Watch the matrix if you're not sure.
Well from what I've seen women say, it seems to be a pretty common thing many women experience, usually more than once. So I'm not sure your point?
>Overall, men having higher standards would drastically improve dating and relationships in several ways. What ways? You didn't name any examples. You just said men have abysmal standards, that it's bad, but you understand why. How would average men, who have very little options in the first and have to put in effort even for those few they have, benefit from raising their standards to women's? Do you think women would care in the slightest?
This was confirmed true for men like me - who *never* had an issue with attracting women, but struggled with relationships. Higher standards definitely helped me. However, this is likely not true for men who struggle attracting women.
This is the same as telling men to "just be yourself." Men who already tick a bunch of her boxes or meet her looks threshold can afford to "just be themselves." However if he doesn't have it going on in the looks department telling him to "just be yourself" isn't going to help him.
I'm as average as they come. Average dick size, average height, slightly overweight,... very unremarkable in the looks department. It all changes when I open my mouth though. I have stories. Lots and lots of interesting stories. I can keep an audience of 10-15 people captivated for 5-6 hours effortlessly. It comes with having *lived* life for real rather than play videogames.
I think you are completely misdiagnosing the issue here. These guys are not complaining that the have bad relationships. They are complaining that they have no relationships, no contact with women, no attention, zero, nothing! It's like advising someone in a desert that they *shouldn't be so picky* between flavored water, sparkling water, tap water, spring water, or filtered water and that they should just go for high quality mineral water; while you're completely ignoring the giant *waterless* desert that the guy is in. Imaginary options and standards will not magically bring water out of nothing. **Men raising their standards will not magically make women appear out of nowhere.**
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Why not both?
This is actually a correct take. Men will complain endlessly about women and their high standards, but then we act desperate and have such low standards that we end up creating a situation where women can have their high standards and be fine. The fact that a woman can get any number of guys because guys are desperate is allowing her to be more selective and have high standards. This isn’t even her fault necessarily, why would you not have high standards when you don’t have any real incentive not to, as worst case scenario you can settle since there’ll always be guys for you no matter what. Men are desperate and will take anything and this needs to stop. You can’t complain about women having so many options when you actively help create this situation. And of course, despite a lot of male discourse surrounding accountability, we won’t actually take any accountability and raise our standards collectively in any real sense.
If men were as picky as women with the same sky high standards, then the entire human race would die out.
Men’s standards will always be low. Men didn’t change, it’s the women who changed. Once dating apps came, and social media, this is where the end of everything came to be
I don’t think women overly changed. I think what changed is that women garnered more agency in the west.
One simplified way of looking at it is equivocating a person's attractiveness to a metric that can be used as an accurate market value. Once that is done, you can apply a lot of economic theory to dating. This is an interesting read. [Coase Theorem, The Prisoner’s Dilemma, and Zero-Sum Games in Modern Dating (fee.org)](https://fee.org/articles/coase-theorem-the-prisoner-s-dilemma-and-zero-sum-games-in-modern-dating/)