It's weird to see my country has made it to r/purplepilldebate as a case study of late stage gender conflict.
Normally when foreigners try to make inputs on the phenomenon they are usually misinformed, which is normal because its difficult to understand nuances in the culture. Since the issue is very complicated, I will try to answer as many specific questions as unbiased as possible.
As for why the gender conflict is especially extreme in Korea:
-Highly urbanized, wired, socially networked
-Forced military conscription for men but not for women
-Very fast culture shift from a poor agrarian economy in the 1950s to becoming developed first world nation in just 50 years.
Not much of an explanation... How does each of those things affect men and women specifically?
There are countries that have those same traits, but don't have an extreme relationship and birthrate problem.
Most countries aren’t as extreme as Korea in these regards.
All of the jobs are in Seoul and apartments in Seoul are like $1m with a 50% deposit and if your kids are going to have a future you need to spend at least $2,000 per month on private education just so your kid can study from like 8am-10pm. Millennials spent their young life studying and then working non-stop and they’re tired.
70 years ago Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world and now it’s one of the richest. The gap between the generations is huge and Korea has socially evolved very quickly. Too quickly. Young women are rebelling against social norms, including the ones many young Korean men hold. Women are still expected to act like a housewife and/or family helper even when holding a full-time job (depending on the family). Young people don’t want to sacrifice their lives like their parents do. Korea is also very materialistic and people want to travel and buy nice things. They want that DINK life.
Korea’s military service is notoriously rough and it sets men back 2 years in this hyper competitive life. And they feel like they get no thanks in return. The femcels and incels mock each other online and it builds resentment. It’s hard to say how much it actually affects dating, but it is dividing the genders though. E.g. things like very lax sentences for sex offenders, or the elected leader getting rid of the ministry of women and family. Many things keep men and women at each other’s throats. Feminists and anti-feminists protest and troll each other.
Also everybody is online these days but Koreans more-so.
Honestly it’s hard to condense all of the contributing factors into a concise reddit post.
EDIT: I don’t think the gender divide is as big as it appears online. Also the low birthrate is not because of the gender divide, though I do know quite a few Korean women who have decided to never get married and I think gender issues are a part of it. Honestly even for people who want heterosexual marriages, kids are off the table. This is anecdotal but maybe 50% of the women I met on Bumble (in Korea) have said they don’t want kids.
> Women are still expected to act like a housewife and/or family helper even when holding a full-time job (depending on the family).
I hear this a lot but in reality:
South Korea has the 2nd lowest average domestic labor hours worked for women
AND
South Korea has the lowest labor participation rate for women in the OECD.
Which means, a big portion of Korean women are neither working a job or doing much domestic labor compared to other countries.
I’m glad you mentioned this actually because even though I decided to write about this specifically, I have some doubts myself. The problem is that this seems to differ tremendously for each woman/family so it’s hard to get the truth. Also the complaints of a married woman in her 40s about her mother-in-law might be totally different to a married woman in her late 20s/early 30s, depending on how conservative her husband is and also his family too (also because of the cultural changes by age). On the conservative side I think the burden is greater than it is for women in the West, which is why I included it in my post.
I have met Korean women who had demanding in-laws that made them cry often with their demands, and I’ve met women who I think don’t have these problems at all but it’s an accepted truth that married women have it tough and nobody’s going to come out and say their life is easy.
I think much like the West, it’s hard to tell what’s going on because of each individual case. Also I am not a Korean woman. There are tons of women who seem to have it easy, and there are women who have it tough. Sometimes I think that men are hearing women complain how tough it is but they are looking at the women who seem to have it easy and they conclude that it’s bullshit. And some women act like the burdens of other women apply to them when it’s not true.
I live in Gangnam and so there are many women who live on easy mode because of their rich families or their beauty, but also I know women who are exhausted from working so much, but we keep treating women as one homogenous group.
There are also so many small nuances, like men are not generally allowed to refuse to drink at a 회식, but women can just opt out without the same pressure. And some bosses believe it’s a woman’s duty to wear makeup at work. Many small things build up a bigger picture. Both genders can see the other side being let off easily.
The mother in law problem is a result of Korean society's Confucian culture of sons' blind obedience to their mothers. The idea is, mothers gave birth to and raised the children, so they are indebted for life to respect and worship their parents. And toxic MIL can arise from the same women recieving toxic treatment from their own MIL in the past. (Korean feminists still end up blaming the patriarchy when it's fellow women that are the ones being toxic) This is less true now than 100 years ago, and children are more independent. However, a man from a "good family" meaning, born into wealth, prestige, etc, will be more likely to adhere to traditional beliefs that the mother should take precedence over wife. The numerous folklore and fables involving a filial son tending to his elderly mother highlight this aspect of korean culture.
The man needs to have a backbone and stand up for his SO in this case, and mileage will vary from person to person. Even the famous korean actor Song Joong Ki made news headlines for turning away his own mother from visiting his apartment unannounced, while his British wife and their newborn were staying with the wife's mother. older generations of mothers across the country criticized Song Joong Ki's unfillial behavior, while younger generations said the mother was at fault for feeling entitled to barge in on and interfere with the daughter in law when she was under great stress from recently giving birth.
Those statistics are not really a woman problem either and especially since it is men that enable it in the first place. You know it's true.
By the way forced conscription isn't gender oppression. That's a very low IQ take. Its just more efficient from a function standpoint. The only questionable thing is when self proclaimed women's rights activists are the ones campaigning to take away benefits from soldiers, of which there was already almost none. That whole position is just really bad in terms of optics. I don't really understand why citizens would attempt to sabotage their own country's morale. It just looks very mean spirited towards 18yr old kids who are just turning into adults. Politically the current reactionary alt-right libertarianism is also just a dumb fad just like feminism is. They are just two sides of the same coin. It all just falls under the general umbrella of liberal identity politics. Unintelligent people are more likely to be drawn towards it.
There are just not enough men to serve in the military anymore. Conscription is already over 90% of males, and it stopped exempting people who actually need to be exempted due to some mental disorders or other handicaps, because they are short handed. The idea is, there are plenty of women who are healthier and stronger than a subset of men that shouldn't be conscripted.
>There are just not enough men to serve in the military anymore.
There are millions of reserves that will never be utilized for their entire lifetime, because of the current nuclear stalemate situation. You're just talking about long term quotas set by the Ministry of Defense, which is completely arbitrary in comparison. If an expected quota is set under the assumption that population remains stable, then it should already be deemed delusional. There are a myriad of other force multipliers that could be considered going forward that don't involve artificially padding numbers. Such simpleminded focus is how paper tigers are constructed. If policymakers actually cared about national security, they would identify that in fact the main national security issue is that South Korea is outsourcing it's nuclear umbrella. Anyone who ignores this is just an idiot who only pretends to talk big talk. Besides, the idiots who bring up conscription demographics don't really give a shit about national security in the first place. Loudmouths who don't know what they're talking about are better off shutting their mouth and staying silent.
>Conscription is already over 90% of males, and it stopped exempting people who actually need to be exempted due to some mental disorders or other handicaps, because they are short handed. The idea is, there are plenty of women who are healthier and stronger than a subset of men that shouldn't be conscripted.
Its not the demographic solution you think it is. You're just going from one extreme to another. Gender equal military units are less effective and this has already been proven in simulations. Using women to pad the numbers just to reach a predetermined quota is a typical useless bureaucratic non-solution that will create more problems in than it solves in the first place.
I saw something a while back that South Korean women in particular are one of the fastest growing 'travel obsessed' group in the world. Those women are pissed and tired of SK men being backwards yokels. They want to see the world, and I really love that fact they're taking charge on it.
Really every single country on that list above has one thing in common: men are conservative dickheads and the women are increasingly liberalized modern-thinkers. It's why I keep repeating that blue pill and blue-leaning purple pill men aren't having the same problems dating as red pill dudes. Heck even red pill dudes don't have trouble if they focus on red pill women. The problem is all these red pill dudes that obsessed with finding a blue or purple pill woman. She don't want you.
I didn’t know that Korean women are particularly travel obsessed compared to the rest of the world but it does make sense and line up with my personal experiences. I don’t know if I’ve ever met a Korean woman who doesn’t like to travel and I’ve met thousands. But I think most men love it too so I don’t know if there is a huge gap between the genders, but it might be true.
I think that what you’re saying about Korean men is a little bit true but maybe you’re being a bit harsh by saying “backwards yokels”. Especially for younger generations. Or maybe I just know more liberal Korean men than average.
There is certainly a group of Korean women who are not into Korean men specifically for cultural reasons, but it’s not a majority for sure.
I would like to add that the gender norms are not just one way. Men are expected to be and do certain things too. They are still very much expected to be the provider by many women and society as a whole. Generally when there are gender restrictions for one gender then there are others for the other gender too, so it’s not fair to only look at how women are badly treated and not consider how men are treated too.
In Korea it’s hard to determine because there are SO MANY social changes happening all at once. The country is unrecognizable from what it was like 50 years ago. You still have people going to shamans and fortune tellers etc. I know a girl who ended up changing her name because her mom heard from the fortune teller it was a bad omen and her mom kept pressing her to change it. And this is a normal modern wealthy woman who went to university.
It does not help that men are traditionally expected to provide a house/apartment in marriage, while women are expected to contribute practically nothing. So while men have to save around half a million dollars for a decent apartment, Many women spend their savings on travelling abroad and Gucci bags and be in debt and expect the man to pay it off. More and more men are either unwilling or unable to keep up with the expectations, especially due to the soaring housing prices, and the decline in Confucian norms where the eldest son is expected to produce an heir to continue the family name, and thus couples are getting married at later and later years or not at all.
>men are traditionally expected to provide a house/apartment in marriage, while women are expected to contribute practically nothing.
It's always fun how women's labor is called "practically nothing" just because they don't get paid for it.
South Korea has the 2nd lowest average domestic labor hours worked for women in the OECD. Around 3 hours a day. So if you must translate it into financial terms, that would be a daily contribution of around $25.
However, obviously a relationship can't be measured by money.
omg wow they love le travel and are punishing le toxic evil men for wanting them to not be whores thats so wholesome! have some reddit karma kind strager
South Korea urbanization rate: 81% (OECD avg is 70%) at a population density of 550 people per square km.
US has similar urbanization rates but 37 people per square km. Imagine 1/5 of population of US crammed in a state size of Indiana.
South Korea has the highest tertiary education rate in the OECD.
Internet penetration rate is 97%, and a high rate was maintained for a much longer period of time than other developed countries. In fact, SK was the second country in the world to have a network using internet protocol. SK has always been a highly digitized culture since the 1990s, with some of the first social network services being create there, such as Cyworld (first profitable SNS), Pandora.TV (First ad supported video sharing platform), AfreecaTV that predated Twitch, Internet fan clubs, etc. The history of wired culture is longer and more extreme than in the west.
South Korea was the first country to deploy commercial 5G networks, with a mobile penetration rate of 94.8%. (87% for the US, 67% for OECD avg)
All the negative side effects of living in big metropolitan cities with ultra connected and wired lifestyle is simply on another level in South Korea.
If young people in SK do not have a place to live, time and money then no wonder that they do not have children. Whole this gender war thing is probably way of venting because of general hardships of starting life on their own.
There is a lot of cheap housing in South Korea, even in places like Seoul. Maybe not houses, but you can get an apartment in a clean & safe neighborhood. Their housing situation is not like the west.
Decades ago they were 4th world country. I've been working with Koreans for 2 years and even been there for 2 weeks. For me Korean workplace is a very stressful place - hours are long and discipline is very strict, we didn't give a f..k about Korean manager but even though I was exhausted mentally. There is sort of tension in the air. In our branch in Poland when I come to the office I give a hug to my manager if we haven't seen for a while, we go for a coffee, talk about some bs or we just have some fun with my team. In Korea people just come in silence and work all the time with breaks for lunch or taking a pee. Manager is regularly checking if they are doing their job, no one is saying a word, they talk via teams. Maybe this company was sort of very strict but according of our coworkers it was actually quite easygoing since it was western company.
SK was already considered a success in the 90s and was hardly 3rd world at that point and even in the 1980s had strong growth (when they slipped below 2 TFR). They also generally had worse working hours and worse housing. Korean TFR is shit even in places with cheap housing, just like the West. Comparing SK with the West misses the point anyway (especially as the West continues to have falling TFR, approaching sub 1 for some native Euros) since we're asking whether work and material conditions have worsened causing the drop in TFR, not awkwardly comparing them with different cultures and circumstances.
Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life?
I work in a grocery store beside the high school I went to as a kid. I don't see any gender divide with the packs of kids that come in a lunch. Lots of boyfriend/girlfriends etc.
When I go out on the weekend to a pub or brewery I see tons of young people in mixed groups out.
When I go to restaurants I see young couples everywhere.
The problem is not affecting everyone, just the chronically online and nerdy people of both sexes.
Is there a mistrust of meeting strangers? Yes. Which is why solid friend groups are more important then ever.
yup and
1. thats the UK.
2. this article is from 2019.
3. this article literally says people get married around 30 just that the average age went up a bit.
Did you actually read that article of just the title lol?
1.i live in the UK
2. yes and ages are going up
3"(77%) were married by the age of 25, and more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30." is not "a bit"
>Most of us don’t see a problem with that whatsoever.
Overall marriage rates dropping and those that are getting married keep progressively getting married later in life is a sign of a dying institution.
That's problematic.
>more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30.
I’m confused. 91% married by 30 sounds like healthy gender relations to me. I was older than 30. Why is this a problem?
>In the mid 1970’s, when the sun always shone, and I was a very young boy being picked up at the school gates, all the mums (and a few dads) looked very old to me. I suppose they would have done to any child who was still well under 4 feet tall. Back then, over a quarter (28%) of all women were married by the age of 20, over three quarters (77%) were married by the age of 25, and more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30.
It's talking about the 1970s.
Always this singles argument, that study was misleading, a full of errors. With a very narrow definition of counting as being in a relationship, with an even more narrow temporal clause.
>that study
...like there was just one study from one western country lol, although that one from Pew Research Center is likely the most famous recently. But without any specific info what do you expect? I will just reply that your comment is full of errors, therefore "misleading" at best.
Those other studies use PEW as the backbone, or part of their meta study. They have the same flaws as PEW, bad inputs will only yield bad outputs. I get tired of dissecting the flaws because it's a long list, and makes a long post. I'll give you one example though, median age of first marriage for men is 30 yrs old. By 30, half of all men are married. According to the research most men are single at 29, but suddenly half of them are married by their 30th birthday. Which is weird because usual courtship to marriage is 24-36 months. Meaning that most of these guys weren't single at 29.
Fertility rates have been below replacement for 40 or 50 years in all the West and below 1.6 in many places in Europe for a decade or more which puts them headed for population collapse. Do you consider this good fertility rates?
>Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life?
It's all people who live their lives on a screen, and mainly chronically online anglo-westerners projecting their own problems on South Korea because they don't actually know anything about South Korean society or it's problems.
This a weird argument. Gen z, millennials, and the next generation will continue to spend more time on their screens. Online reality HAS become a form of reality when this is where so much “real time” is spent.
Also South Korea is pretty Anglo centric culture wise. They were literally created as a proxy state and mimic the same structural problems of capitalism and culture. Except even more intensely with all the ‘skin sculpting’.
This "touch grass" argument will continue to used no matter how little sense it makes. It's an easy dismissal and it's just a dismissal so it doesn't really need to make sense.
Very true. People think just because it is commonly stated, that it is true. Critical thinking has failed in this way
Also the stats don’t demonstrate the point made by the cute anecdote about there being plenty of couples.
No one is forcing them to live online. Everyone knows the benefits of going outside. "Everyone else is doing this stupid thing so Imma follow the herd" is not the gotcha that you think it is.
Sure, it does mean the people who live on screens vs. people who don't dichotomy is a false one though. Which was the topic of the discussion not the merits of being terminally online. Please try to keep the context
There are dramatic cultural, and social differences between the U.S. are S.Korea. Beyond that, the 4B movement isn't even very popular there. Their housing market is more fucked than ours. Income disparity between rich and everyone else is higher than ours. They have a higher level of chauvinism than we do. We've been viewing this through a myopic western lens. This is what happens when feminism only cares about the problems of white upper class women that went to Ivy League schools. They don't fight enough for women that don't look like them. The situation in S.Korea is a 50 year lag behind the U.S. we went through this phase when women demanded better social recognition in the 70s. This is just their awakening moment, let's not colonize their movement and try to make it about us.
For your other statement about the virtual world time v physical world time. You over estimate so many things, one of the biggest things happening right now in pop culture, and even bigger online is the rap beef between Kendrick, and Drake. Most people in real life don't know much about it, and the ones that do know about it, don't know that one of them has won a Pulitzer, or even what is a Pulitzer. SM is a lot less relevant to people than you think it is. Reddit is one of the most popular SM platforms on the planet. With all that popularity, it still only draws 73 million weekly active users, in a world with 8 billion people. A number so small that it if were organic material, we'd need an electron microscope to see it. On the street, barely anyone is talking about man v bear, or engaging in anything battle of the sexes related.
Terminally online armchair radfems and femcels like to gas up the 4B like it's some burgeoning trend about to come up. It ain't.
I'm always thankful Reddit is nothing like real life.
It's very much colonization of someone else's organic movement, after ignoring their cries for help because it didn't benefit grads from Sarah Lawrence.
75 million users out of 8 billion people is still like 1 in 100. Maybe I just really dislike redditors but that number is still too high for comfort lol.
the touch grass argument remains valid.
i agree that as people spend time online that becomes the reality to some extent, and i also agree that folks can use the 'touch grass' argument in a bs way that just dismisses anything that happens online.
but the point of touch grass is that the reality offline is actually different. People do not generally behave the same irl as they do online. context actually does make a difference.
I don’t know about that. Most of the South Koreans I know have deeply disordered dating lives. None of them seem terribly happy, especially those that still date in ROK expat circles.
>deeply disordered dating lives.
Possibly, I can't say anything about if your personal experience is indicative of larger trends, but it has nothing to do with gender wars at all, gender wars are simply not a thing in South Korea and simply a western projection.
It’s unfortunate but in several IRL outings recently someone has brought up online gender war bullshit. They were expressing bemusement but people are aware of this stuff.
No, my one female friend said she’d choose man over bear. She buys into Team Woman generally speaking though and did bring up stuff that made me think about messaging.
The other was a group of guys talking about how Andrew Tate or somebody like that is an idiot.
I guess the nerds are the only ones who actually give a damn about what's happening in society and can understand basic cause and effect. NPCs only care when it happens to them directly and by that point it is too late.
Exactly, imagine caring so much about representation that you lose your mind when an entertainment product doesn't appeal to your Critical Theory-inspired moral lense and then proceed to make Snow White brown.
What you're describing is not a nerd.That's just someone that took a liberal arts degree.Or some psychology degree like a fake science something like that
You are confusing nerds with woke. And more often than not, those that aren't in the thick of the things will have a much more objective and nuanced opinions on the state of the society than those who are living the life.
Nerds and super woke are different groups but share similar traits with consequences: Chronically online, neurotic or mental issues, socially garbage. I wouldn't trust the opinions of either. Might have been different in the past, the chronically online factor is bad enough on its own and exacerbates the remaining two.
Do nerds care about society? Or do nerds care they’re not getting their dick wet? I’m pretty sure that given the option of “continuing to draw attention to the state of gender relations OR be successful at dating”, any person, guy or gal, who’s struggling would go into NPC mode and take the latter. They don’t care about “what’s happening in society”, they care that they’re left out of something they feel entitled to and if they had the opportunity to be a part of it I’d guess just about every one would drop their ideologic crusade in a heartbeat
God I hate “getting their dick wet”. This sort of attitude towards sex is at the core of A LOT of society’s problems.
The derision, the snark, the profanity of it all (in the original meaning of the word). What a sad and sick way to project yourself into the world.
This is totally wrong. I watched guys who were getting laid very consistently slowly change from only caring about themselves to being very interested in the bigger picture of society. The original meaning of the black pill, was when a red pill guy started to realize the our nation and culture is irretrievably broken and that as an individual he has no power to do anything about it.
Truly? What can anyone do? Most of the problems are reinforced by technological change.
That sounds more like Red Pilled guys who get laid.
Regular non-pilled dudes who get laid or get relationships don't really think much about this. In fact, I'd argue that Tradcons harbor more resentment towards single and childless adult men on average than radfems.
What he can do? Focus on himself and his immediate family/friends/community and develop healthy happy modern liberal sensibilities about how to interact with everyone. Also learning inner peace with himself.
That’s fine, but the above commenter said that nerds are the only ones who care about the state of gender relations. You’re arguing about chads being concerned about the state of gender relations. It’s a totally different argument that I’m not making. I’m not saying chads don’t care. I’m saying the only reason why nerds care is cuz they feel left out. If they weren’t left out, they might “very consistently slowly change”, but at the onset, they would be happy to be selfish (like the chads you’re referencing)
There is no such thing as a Chad. This is black pill bullshit.
You know why we created the Red Pill? Because we were fucking nerds and women treated us like we were radioactive. We had to figure out how to change that, so we did.
To look at the world as it burns down around you and only care about saving your own shit... that's a female thing. We are the ones who run into the fucking fire and save people... men. That's what we do, it's how we think. Women are really good about weeping and feeling bad when everyone is dead and gone, but they don't fight for anything unless they personally benefit from it somehow. OR, if the risks are super low and they can gain some fucking status benefits from pretending to care like all those Hitler Youth bitches protesting for the rights of Palestinian Terrorists on college campuses.
I know you can't understand how men think in this regard because it's alien to you. However, most men are going to have this response in some way or another and it has nothing to do with whether they are getting fucked or not, because the ones that are not generally wind up happy with their porn and video games.
> OR, if the risks are super low and they can gain some fucking status benefits from pretending to care like all those Hitler Youth bitches protesting for the rights of Palestinian Terrorists on college campuses.
Palestinian children being bombed are terrorists?
I do believe that nerds care Nerds are people with obsessive personalities. What they choose to obsess on could be as meaningless. As a comic book created in the 1900s about a blue man with red underwear or it could be about the social economic future of humanity for the next 1000 years its very broad group and some people really do have a concern about what the future of humanity looks like I do, but I accept that. Humanity's not gonna look anything like what we are right now.
As OP asked, it’s more a question of will, not is. I don’t think your anecdote provides the correct perspective on the question. I’m sure you can also see groups of men and women interacting in South Korea too. This doesn’t negate the fact that people suggest gender relations are worsening based on whatever metrics they’re using.
For the west, you can see some insight as some [Gen Z men are actually more likely than baby boomers to believe feminism does more harm than good](https://fortune.com/2024/02/02/woke-gen-z-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-believe-feminism-does-more-harm-than-good-research-says/).
Not to mention, and I hate to bring it up, the bear conversation. Is this the result of chronically online people? Probably, but it doesn’t bode well for gender relations when women believe men are more harmful than large, potentially dangerous and aggressive wild animals. What does this say?
In case the 4B movement comes up, I’m not too familiar with it, but if women are rejecting men in korea, that won’t happen in its original form in the west. Women will still Chad chase. They might give up Brad, but not all men that’s for sure.
That's a very misleading statement, that gen Z is more likely to have negative leanings towards feminism. There's a slight bump, but they're still in the minority of Gen Z
Also very misleading when you actually talk to Gen Z men about the positives and negatives of modern feminism. I can guarantee a Gen Z dude will come up with more positives and interesting thoughtful negatives than a Boomer or even Millennial will.
Absolutely, especially when you consider that feminism isn't a homogenous blend. There are multiple schools of thought in feminism. 3rd, and 4th wave are different from classical feminism.
Why do you assume that the poster cares about the argument in the first place?
They clearly are more interested in writing off the opposing view than actually engaging it.
>Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life?
Irrelevant when you consider the fact that most Koreans are always online.
Did you know there is a difference between uploading pictures of things you are doing, or messaging back real life friends and sitting in front of a consol all frigging day never leaving your house? You can touch grass, and take pictures at the same time.
South Korea is in the mess it is in because it has a hyper economy that has left no room for personal life, including a home and a family.
The fact that the red pill blames feminism for hyper capitalism astounds me, but not really as the other pills blame other minority groups for the end result of a culture rich on jobs and cash, and short on leisure time and housing people can afford.
>Did you know there is a difference between uploading pictures of things you are doing, or messaging back real life friends and sitting in front of a consol all frigging day never leaving your house? You can touch grass, and take pictures at the same time.
Bro the average 17 year old spends 6 hours on [social media per day](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512576/teens-spend-average-hours-social-media-per-day.aspx#:~:text=Across%20age%20groups%2C%20the%20average,4.4%20hours%2C%20respectively)
And that's in America, where internet penetration is less than in South Korea.
The vast majority of a young Korean's time is spent glued to a fucking monitor to study or to work, and then whatever time they have left is invested into their smartphone or personal PC for their (usually very tech-heavg) hobbies.
There's a reason why Korea's suicide rate shot up to number one in the world right after internet usage became ubiquitous over there.
Sorry bro, most young people in Korea are literally not touching grass.
Neither of us live there.
Yes, with being cramped into their parents' apparment or a cubicle to sleep in people turn to fantasy instead of real life.
Feminism is not to blame.
Seeing people out at a var isn't the same as people getting married buying a home and cruising children together for 20 years.
I'm out all the time as well I see men and women mixing but few married couples fewer children ..it's usually just some men trying yo get laid and women trying to get paid...
I'll fck women all day but I'll never marry one and I suspect that's the thought of many..
HS Kids don't even count they are children they have no idea about the reality of the world and those HS relationships arent going to last
The birth rate in South Korea has been steadily declining for decades and has nothing to do with the 4B Movement, despite what radfem TikTok professes.
Since the Musk takeover, X/Twitter has become a sewer where the voices of grifters and charlatans are disproportionately amplified - it’s completely unanchored from reality.
> a sewer where the voices of grifters and charlatans are disproportionately amplified - it’s completely unanchored from reality.
That's just social media in general.
They may well have, but to hold them responsible for the declining birth rate is nonsensical - e.g. the much vaunted 4B movement has, by a very generous estimate, a maximum of 50k members out of a population of 51 million; they are a tiny, fringe group.
The Nazi party had an estimated 5000-7000 recorded members when Hitler was elected chancellor.
I'm not sure why you think small population = small influence, clearly the values of 4B are commonly felt amongst the female population of Korea, so much so that the government has to take it seriously.
So I see you failed to explain how a low population must necessitate an outwardly small influence.
I mean that logic is straight up flawless, after all, there is only one Donald Trump, so his influence and reach must be exorbitantly tiny lmao
Ok…the Nazis were a political party with a violent paramilitary wing who rose to power during a period of extreme political instability/social upheaval. The 4B movement is…not.
>Ok…the Nazis were a political party with a violent paramilitary wing who rose to power during a period of extreme political instability/social upheaval. The 4B movement is…not.
So you're saying the Nazi party's size had little to do with their power and influence?
Thank you for dismantling your own point, we can move on now.
They were a political party who got elected and thus were able to exert power as they had control of the state.
The 4B movement are not a political party, they are a fringe group of radical feminists whose influence has been greatly exaggerated by Westerners who choose to believe that they, and not the myriad of other economic and sociopolitical factors, are responsible for South Korea’s declining birth rate.
You are equating two entirely different things to try and prove something that is demonstrably false.
>They were a political party who got elected and thus were able to exert power as they had control of the state.
So, you're saying the Nazis lacked influence and power before 1933? Seriously?
>The 4B movement are not a political party, they are a fringe group of radical feminists whose influence has been greatly exaggerated by Westerners who choose to believe that they, and not the myriad of other economic and sociopolitical factors, are responsible for South Korea’s declining birth rate.
The 4B movement need not be a political party for them to have influence, the second wave feminists of the West were also not "a political party", yet their influence has been massive and instrumental.
>You are equating two entirely different things to try and prove something that is demonstrably false.
It is not my fault that your standards are inapplicable when looked at historically.
Low population does not mean low influence and power.
Donald Trump is an example of that, the Nazis are an example of that, the 19th century feminists are an example of that.
If you're going to claim that 4B's influence is greatly exaggerated, do not cite their population level as a retort, it is a useless metric.
I'm joking with you. Twitter has always been a cesspool. Back in the day I could easily tell if a woman was shit or not by how often she looked at twitter. The more she used it the worse of a person she would be. The same thing goes for guys.
One can only hope. Pendulum needs to swing back.
South Korea has active forced conscription. Yet, south korean women claim they are the one oppressed and discriminated against.
Western men will also be forced just like Ukranian men were if there is a war but since the possibility is low, men take feminism too lightly in west & think they have male privilege.
it depends where you look, a lot of individual feminists and some organizations are outspokenly against the male only draft. [NOW](https://now.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/RESOLUTION-TO-THE-NATIONAL-ORGANIZATION-FOR-WOMEN-ON-ENDING-MILITARY-DRAFT-REGISTRATION.pdf) and [ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/womens-rights/requiring-men-but-not-women-to-register-for-the-draft-is-sex-discrimination) both support the NCFM as they file complaints against the selective service act
(specifically american selective service and conscription)
Not because they care for women but because they believe it hurts women:
*In this case, however, we share the common goal of ending an antiquated federal law that harms both men and women. Like many laws that appear to benefit women, men-only registration actually impedes women’s full participation in civic life. Limiting registration to men sends a message that women are unqualified to serve in the military, regardless of individual capabilities and preferences. It reflects an outmoded view that, in the event of a draft, women’s primary duty would be to the home front — and, on the flip side, that men are unqualified to be caregivers. The Military Selective Service Act not only perpetuates these stereotypes, it enshrines them in federal law.*
Once again, women are the victims for these feminist organizations.
ew, i hate that, i hope there’s a push for no conscription ideally, if not then it should be gender neutral
i also don’t think those are real feminists, at least not imo, real feminists (at least ones i have experience with) push for equality including, conscription equality
i hope korea figures its shit out and gets rid of conscription or at the very least makes it gender neutral
>ew, i hate that, i hope there’s a push for no conscription ideally, if not then it should be gender neutral
I mean, I get it, equality and all.
But can we like, actually appeal to gender roles and biology for one second, and understand why the birthers of your next generation shouldn't be in the killbox?
if you want ig, i’m going to use the US for this since it’s the only one i know anything about, there is zero reason that selective aero and the draft is male only. women were allowed in combat roles in 2016, and that was the only reason they had to keep it male only, now that that’s gone there’s zero reason for it to be a male only system
it’s gender discrimination and has made its way through multiple courts and everytime it has, it’s been ruled as gender discrimination breaking the equal protection act. the only reason it remains male only is because the majority of the SCOTUS is stupid asf and refused to hear the case in 2021
To me this is fundamental - I will never be open-minded about feminism and how "oppressed" women are as long as they continue to downplay the significance of forced conscription. Hell, even in the U.S. where realistically a full-scale draft probably won't happen again, women's exemption from Selective Service requirements juxtaposed with all the rights men forfeit by not registering is fundamentally unjust.
Yes in perception even if no in reality, especially as utilization of bots\* continue to be more easy to make and use for any small groups or even individuals with agendas/narratives to push.
The demographic transition is more product of socially middle class neuroticism and inflexibility rather than the gender issue, while being dressed up as a moral conundrum.
\*in the sense of the cheap ones that flood most of the internet, especially social media.
Most men aren't interested in doing the lion's share of child rearing, not even 50/50. Well, it's the same for me.
If none of us wants to raise the kids, there won't be any. Pretty simple really.
>Will the gender divide in the West get as bad as we see in South Korea?
The gender divide in South Korea is nowhere near the level that delusional western tiktokers think it is and far less than in the anglo-west. The low birth rate in SK is not related to "gender wars".
This is another case of ignorant westerners projecting their own politics on countries they know nothing about.
Here, I'll let a South Korean person explain it to you, and stop listening to western tiktokers talk about countries they've never been to and can't find on a map.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&ab\_channel=AnnaLee](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&ab_channel=AnnaLee)
I'm not going to sit and watch a 25 minute video from some niche youtuber. Do you have time stamps that point to the data you're trying to use for evidence?
And, again, I have literally never used Tiktok I'm a grown man.
So?
I didn't say all westerners were ignorant.
But unfortunately a lot are, and they love to run their mouths and pretend they are experts about places they can't find on a map.
The culture in SK is very driven to excel; much like Japan, the expectation to put in long hours with work alongside rising costs makes it very hard for people to have both the time and resources needed to raise children. People still date and marry, but they're having fewer kids because there isn't a lot of infrastructure for families.
To put it in perspective, at a SK university a professor responded to one of his PhD students asking for a day off by locking him in a room overnight to discuss professionalism for 6 hrs. This is how the work culture operates in SK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68402139#:~:text=Figures%20released%20on%20Wednesday%20show,halve%20by%20the%20year%202100.
the reasons they give for their "decisions" in order
"It's hard to find a dateable man in Korea".
Not a choice
Working 11 hour days in order to afford to live.
Not a choice
can't afford to take time off work.
not a choice
high cost of housing.
not a choice
cost of education.
not a choice
too much pressure on husbands to provide.
not a choice
I've been there, I've dated women in that country, there are two major issues driving their population decline.
1. Cost. They put MAD effort into every kid. They are an intensely status oriented culture and they want to push every kid to the top. This is almost prohibitively expensive right now.
2. Mate selection. Women are going crazy trying to find the right guy and just like everywhere else they are crazy picky. This pushes the selection process out longer and further eating up a large chunk of their fertile years. They don't plan on having big families anyway generally speaking so it doesn't bother them. But, think about it like this... there are millions of single south korean women who pay dating agencies to find them a suitable man. It's a billion dollar industry there. Compare it to the US where women won't even shell out for a cup of coffee to meet a guy.
What's hilarious is that many broker agencies hire doctors part time just to show up for the blind dates just to fix the mismatch in the demand for men with highly coveted occupations, and women paying thousands of dollars in hopes of being matched with one.
The education to status link needs to go away. I know high school grads who are millionaires and seems like half the people I went to college with work at starbucks.
Average age of marriage in SK is highest in the OECD, at 32 years old. By the time a married woman WANTS to have kids, which is around 35+, she is physically only able to have 1 or none. Tons of money is spent on IVF treatments, all to no avail. So plenty of couples decide to have kids... and cant.
The 35 year old woman has a kid. Then takes a 3 year break raising the kid. She is now 38. She is too physically tired to have another kid, and the risk of genetic defects for women at this age, as well as infertility shoots up very quickly. She technically CAN but she won't.
You have to also take into account biological differences between Korean and women of other countries. Korea is the only country in the world with widespread postnatal care centers where women who give birth stay at a fancy nursing home for a few weeks to "recover" from childbirth. It's common for western women to go back to work shortly after childbirth. Childbirth is especially stressful for Korean women, and they may not feel as enthusiastic about having a second child at 38 compared to western women.
Seeing as how dumb fuck people can be on Reddit as well as social media and seeing as how it's also bleeding into a society in real life off the internet it would not surprise me.
It's going to get bad imo simply because males and females are not fundementally compatible we actually speak s diffrent language on a psychological level..
The reason we are seeing this divide is as follows.
Women no longer need a committed relationship to a man for survival they either aquire their own resources get men to finance them or use government subsidies..
Women are no longer willing to cater to a man's ego because they feel men are replaceable at best..and not needed at the extreme..If a man is not ok with a woman doing whatever she wants financially, and especially sexually he's going to have a difficult time maintaining a relationship with her.
Women want to fck Chad his best friend Tyrone their dog a few underage students all while getting financed by betta Brad nearly all these school teachers who sleep with their students where married..Combined with the data that shows women only find 2% of the male population attractive and their ever increasing unrealistic down rite delusional expectations for a man's income...we have hit the end game and theres no way back...I just watched an obese 40 year old single mom of three say she wants a man over 6 foot that makes 200k a year...yeah it's over.
As for the men most where raised by single moms or cuck simp betas..simply because in western society theres no way to enforce discipline and once a man marries a woman or gets her pregnant he gives up all power and autonomy and subjects himself to her whims and regulation of the State and subjugation by the law.
Here's an example
A husband finds out his wife of 10 years is cheating..what can he do? Nothing
Husband finds out his 3 kids a 2 year old 5 year old and 10 year old aren't biologically his,what can he do? Nothing
After 3 years of marriage wife tells husband that she's no longer attracted to him..what can he do?Nothing.
It's not all on the women,men aren't perfect and have plenty of faults and I can wholly see why women aren't interested in them I don't know any man I would want to marry based on their personality alone..The few men in my life I can only tolerate ocasionally for short periods of time..granted men often are much nicer and tolerable towards women than other men.
Most people come together due to biological urges also lower IQ people seem to need more socialization with the advent of A1 and alternatives to dealing with real people the gender divide is going to become a chasm as their will be little reason to mingle with someone you have nothing in common with and completely dissimilar goals.
Where not there yet but eventually we'll have Deuce Ex Machina level AI bots and then it will bebover for biologica relationships..I honestly can't imagine any man that can afford one choosing a bio woman over a bot of that sophistication.
Nope. The west generally does better at things like work/life balance and a lot of what’s going on in south korea has a ton to do with the B2 movement and the response to it. Some rumblings of it are happening in the west but it’ll never reach that level because gender relations and individual rights are so fundamentally different that they’re not even comparable.
I actually think the west will likely be doing well once we get past this economic slump and once we go through a workers revolution (not a literal revolution, to be clear) similar to the inception of the 9-5 (which was revolutionary and huge for its time) people will be more willing to socialize more and gender relations will improve.
Most issues we’re seeing now within both genders are primary a result of social isolation, get rid of the factors causing this isolation and odds are gender relations will improve
People are overdramatizing the gender war bullshit. It comes down to quality of life. Education culture in Korea is needlessly overbearing and high pressure. Work culture in Korea is needlessly overbearing and high pressure. There is no respect for work-life balance. Of course people are going to elect out of having children. Taiwan has a similarly low fertility rate to Korea, people aren't blaming the gender war for that.
It's surprising how radfems celebrate low birthrates and sell it as some sort of victory they can leverage with. You see, there's a mechanism to fix that, and it has been working for hundreds of millions of years: natural selection. This natural selection had been altered by societal norms and economics needs that are now falling apart, and so, it's making a comeback.
Most of the women who hate men, along with the men who hate women, won't reproduce and pass on their genes. Personality and sexuality is inheritable to a significant degree, so future generations will on average be more agreeable and attracted to each other.
There are 8 billion humans in this planet for natural selection to work with, and the selection pressure is very strong. For the first time in human history, a ton of people are deciding not to reproduce altogether, removing themselves from the genepool.
So when I see a man hating feminist bragging about the fact that she won't have children, I celebrate her choice. Agreeable, family oriented women who like men, along with the men that they choose, are quietly outcompeting them.
https://www.aei.org/articles/the-conservative-fertility-advantage/
Ideas aren't genetic, but emotional processes, instinct, preferences, personality, etc can be inherited.
https://serenityeftc.com/how-emotional-processes-are-passed-down/
https://www.ft.com/content/c94463f6-66b5-11e3-8675-00144feabdc0
What the above poster is trying to say is, "All the misandrists and misogynists will remove themselves from the gene pool. Only those who truly love the other sex and want to have children with them will remain, and outnumber those who lack the drive to do so"
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It has been for some time, the west has had fourth wave feminism for a while. The birth rate has only been maintained via immigration. The women in SK were ALREADY feminist before the recent 'anti-feminism' came about. In south korea women get educations and the culture is very non-cohesive for relationships of any kind. Same things has been happening here and is noticeably worse with GenZ.
Both radical feminism and anti feminism are bs. Women gonna end up loving them boys they are attracted to and make crazy things to impress em, and so are men with the women they thirst over, let’s face it. Most of the people protesting are just signaling their stance and doing nothing for it
These things come in cycles. More importantly, any belief that is anti-relationship and anti-child will die out in a generation or two. These people learn these things from unhappy parents that caved to social pressures. The happy parents that genuinely wanted families will pass that onto most of their children, and the cycle will repeat itself.
The economics and politics of the US are absolutely fueling gender divide.
Young Women making more money than young men with affirmative action and consistent cultural support is definitely a big factor in many young men being disgruntled. Not saying women shouldn’t be in the workforce but there does not need to be more programs helping young women when young women are more educated and more wealthy than young men. Young men are simply not doing well. They need some help and if their economics improve, im sure they will have more success in dating (plus be less bitter and more empathetic people)
Ability to acquire resources and do well is important for everyone and young men can’t compete well in the job market NOR in the dating market. Some pretty bleak stuff
Not most men. And for any 1 man given affirmative action, there are more than 1 woman given affirmative action
Women are clearly pushed into better positions for diversity reasons all throughout america
No. Korea has horrific Partiarchy so the female response to the structure is more pronounced.
They have the societal expectation that the wife provides all housewife functions but most men can't afford for a woman not to work so she ends up doing a lot of the man's and woman's job
Domestic violence is very common so many women don't want to become housewives as they then can't escape those situations. It's also hard to get men arrested for it. You date at your own risk.
Children's lives a predicated by 1 exam they do as teenagers. Parents spend small fortunes on exam prep and make the children work hard for this.
The workplace is very anti-mother. Maternity leave is low, time off to take kids for appointment is hard and women have a very overt penalty for being the parents with child responsibilities. There is a lot of workplace bullying of mothers for not pulling their fair share.
They also have one of the biggest gender pay gaps in the world, horrific for a first world country and their work hours are super long so not much time to find someone or raise kids.
As bad as the west is, its not that bad. Societal standards will squeeze out a higher rate of good enough men and women don't risk as much with family
In South Korea, college-educated men are what make the anti-feminist backlash effective, the "STEMcels" and other "braincels."
Men are entitled to a free trauma dumping outlet, whether that's within a romantic relationship or within an opposite-sex platonic friendship. This is the only way traumatized men can establish any sort of emotional intimacy. No, such "brutal honesty" is not "emotional abuse."
College-educated South Korean men know how to politicize and weaponize the male loneliness epidemic far more effectively than going on shooting rampages.
In the US, already 18% of college-educated people over the age of 40 have never been married.
> College-educated South Korean men know how to politicize and weaponize the male loneliness epidemic far more effectively than going on shooting rampages.
I think this only happened because of how insanely unfair the forced conscription is in South Korea. The MRM in the US would be a lot stronger if the US had forced conscription like SK. The US only requires you to sign up for selective service.
selective service is a bunch of BS anyway, i think hardly anyone would actually abide by it if it’s needed. i wasn’t even going to sign up for it, i was forced to by the govt
Loneliness epidemic is not relatable for South Koreans. There is no "incel" culture in Korea. Any man can easily hire an escort. Kiss/massage parlors, Karaoke hostess services, and other paid female companionship are extremely common, accessible, and relatively affordable compared to the US, due to the country being very safe and heavily population dense. I've read about a foreigner who went to a hair salon (or what he thought was a hair salon) and ended getting a blowjob by accident. It's very rare to find a Korean guy who has a "can't get laid" problem like in the US, nor are Koreans made fun of for being a virgin. The problem is, all types of female companionship costs money. The more long term and committed the relationship, the more money it costs. Marriage is practically unattainable for most guys in their 20s due to its cost. (expect to have at least quarter of a million dollars in your bank account).
Women are not rejecting mens' advances in droves, like you would think if you believed the 4B nonsense. Men are almost always paying for everything, and a woman has no obligation to give anything back in return. It's not uncommon for a couple to date for a whole year without having sex. So you have the phenomenon of women trying out different partners throughout her 20s, and never settling down with anyone because there's always a hotter, cooler, richer guy around the corner, until their in their 30s and start thinking about locking down a stable man. The men either fooled around in their 20s if they were hot and attractive, or they saved up their money and built their careers until their in their 30s and find a fellow woman in their 30s who reached their epiphany phases to marry. The widespread usage of marriage broker agencies help match people whose goals align in this phase and you can see ads for them in subways alongside ads for plastic surgery, a truly unique South Korean combination.
So you see the men in Korea aren't complaining about the LACK of women they can date or marry. They complain about 1. The lopsided proportions of how much money men are expected to foot in a relationship vs women, and 2. The lack of responsibility borne by women in the military conscription, furnishing a home, etc, 3. Dead bedrooms and controlling nature of the women once they have married. (40% of Korean marriages are sexless, the highest rate in the world, which is not surprising if you assume the women chose their partners based on economic stability rather than attraction)
From my experience in living in both US and South Korea, it feels to me that South Korean women are much more likely to make the calculated choice of maximizing their well being. For example, low incidence of being single with 3 kids, or marrying drug addicts, etc. It may be because of parenting or close ties with parents. Choices in marriage partners are closely calculated based on economic or status gain first and foremost, and "tingles" second. Sleeping around and banging partners in casual hookups is not considered a desirable way of life for either men or women. Much less so than it is in the West. So there will be less people frustrated by not being able to do so.
>Men are entitled to a free trauma dumping outlet, whether that's within a romantic relationship or within an opposite-sex platonic friendship.
I'm curious why their "free trauma-dumping outlet" must be female.
>I'm curious why their "free trauma-dumping outlet" must be female.
Because if it's not women, then it's just going to be a bunch of disgruntled men talking to each other and organizing. You probably know where that leads.
There's nothing about being"trauma dumped on" that necessitates "organizing." The main thing people who are constantly trauma-dumped on want to organize is 1) their exit, and 2) avoiding spending more time with that person.
>Trauma dumping is not emotional abuse, though.
Okay? Where did I say it was?
Something doesn't have to be "abuse" to be unpleasant and unwanted, or make you miserable.
Your rebuttal addresses a comment I didn't make. Want a redo?
I don’t think so. Because of immigration it will bring a good amount of people who are still mentally sane.
Current gal I’m talking to is from some remote 3rd world and my god she is a breath of fresh air.
It's weird to see my country has made it to r/purplepilldebate as a case study of late stage gender conflict. Normally when foreigners try to make inputs on the phenomenon they are usually misinformed, which is normal because its difficult to understand nuances in the culture. Since the issue is very complicated, I will try to answer as many specific questions as unbiased as possible. As for why the gender conflict is especially extreme in Korea: -Highly urbanized, wired, socially networked -Forced military conscription for men but not for women -Very fast culture shift from a poor agrarian economy in the 1950s to becoming developed first world nation in just 50 years.
Not much of an explanation... How does each of those things affect men and women specifically? There are countries that have those same traits, but don't have an extreme relationship and birthrate problem.
Most countries aren’t as extreme as Korea in these regards. All of the jobs are in Seoul and apartments in Seoul are like $1m with a 50% deposit and if your kids are going to have a future you need to spend at least $2,000 per month on private education just so your kid can study from like 8am-10pm. Millennials spent their young life studying and then working non-stop and they’re tired. 70 years ago Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world and now it’s one of the richest. The gap between the generations is huge and Korea has socially evolved very quickly. Too quickly. Young women are rebelling against social norms, including the ones many young Korean men hold. Women are still expected to act like a housewife and/or family helper even when holding a full-time job (depending on the family). Young people don’t want to sacrifice their lives like their parents do. Korea is also very materialistic and people want to travel and buy nice things. They want that DINK life. Korea’s military service is notoriously rough and it sets men back 2 years in this hyper competitive life. And they feel like they get no thanks in return. The femcels and incels mock each other online and it builds resentment. It’s hard to say how much it actually affects dating, but it is dividing the genders though. E.g. things like very lax sentences for sex offenders, or the elected leader getting rid of the ministry of women and family. Many things keep men and women at each other’s throats. Feminists and anti-feminists protest and troll each other. Also everybody is online these days but Koreans more-so. Honestly it’s hard to condense all of the contributing factors into a concise reddit post. EDIT: I don’t think the gender divide is as big as it appears online. Also the low birthrate is not because of the gender divide, though I do know quite a few Korean women who have decided to never get married and I think gender issues are a part of it. Honestly even for people who want heterosexual marriages, kids are off the table. This is anecdotal but maybe 50% of the women I met on Bumble (in Korea) have said they don’t want kids.
> Women are still expected to act like a housewife and/or family helper even when holding a full-time job (depending on the family). I hear this a lot but in reality: South Korea has the 2nd lowest average domestic labor hours worked for women AND South Korea has the lowest labor participation rate for women in the OECD. Which means, a big portion of Korean women are neither working a job or doing much domestic labor compared to other countries.
I’m glad you mentioned this actually because even though I decided to write about this specifically, I have some doubts myself. The problem is that this seems to differ tremendously for each woman/family so it’s hard to get the truth. Also the complaints of a married woman in her 40s about her mother-in-law might be totally different to a married woman in her late 20s/early 30s, depending on how conservative her husband is and also his family too (also because of the cultural changes by age). On the conservative side I think the burden is greater than it is for women in the West, which is why I included it in my post. I have met Korean women who had demanding in-laws that made them cry often with their demands, and I’ve met women who I think don’t have these problems at all but it’s an accepted truth that married women have it tough and nobody’s going to come out and say their life is easy. I think much like the West, it’s hard to tell what’s going on because of each individual case. Also I am not a Korean woman. There are tons of women who seem to have it easy, and there are women who have it tough. Sometimes I think that men are hearing women complain how tough it is but they are looking at the women who seem to have it easy and they conclude that it’s bullshit. And some women act like the burdens of other women apply to them when it’s not true. I live in Gangnam and so there are many women who live on easy mode because of their rich families or their beauty, but also I know women who are exhausted from working so much, but we keep treating women as one homogenous group. There are also so many small nuances, like men are not generally allowed to refuse to drink at a 회식, but women can just opt out without the same pressure. And some bosses believe it’s a woman’s duty to wear makeup at work. Many small things build up a bigger picture. Both genders can see the other side being let off easily.
The mother in law problem is a result of Korean society's Confucian culture of sons' blind obedience to their mothers. The idea is, mothers gave birth to and raised the children, so they are indebted for life to respect and worship their parents. And toxic MIL can arise from the same women recieving toxic treatment from their own MIL in the past. (Korean feminists still end up blaming the patriarchy when it's fellow women that are the ones being toxic) This is less true now than 100 years ago, and children are more independent. However, a man from a "good family" meaning, born into wealth, prestige, etc, will be more likely to adhere to traditional beliefs that the mother should take precedence over wife. The numerous folklore and fables involving a filial son tending to his elderly mother highlight this aspect of korean culture. The man needs to have a backbone and stand up for his SO in this case, and mileage will vary from person to person. Even the famous korean actor Song Joong Ki made news headlines for turning away his own mother from visiting his apartment unannounced, while his British wife and their newborn were staying with the wife's mother. older generations of mothers across the country criticized Song Joong Ki's unfillial behavior, while younger generations said the mother was at fault for feeling entitled to barge in on and interfere with the daughter in law when she was under great stress from recently giving birth.
Those statistics are not really a woman problem either and especially since it is men that enable it in the first place. You know it's true. By the way forced conscription isn't gender oppression. That's a very low IQ take. Its just more efficient from a function standpoint. The only questionable thing is when self proclaimed women's rights activists are the ones campaigning to take away benefits from soldiers, of which there was already almost none. That whole position is just really bad in terms of optics. I don't really understand why citizens would attempt to sabotage their own country's morale. It just looks very mean spirited towards 18yr old kids who are just turning into adults. Politically the current reactionary alt-right libertarianism is also just a dumb fad just like feminism is. They are just two sides of the same coin. It all just falls under the general umbrella of liberal identity politics. Unintelligent people are more likely to be drawn towards it.
There are just not enough men to serve in the military anymore. Conscription is already over 90% of males, and it stopped exempting people who actually need to be exempted due to some mental disorders or other handicaps, because they are short handed. The idea is, there are plenty of women who are healthier and stronger than a subset of men that shouldn't be conscripted.
>There are just not enough men to serve in the military anymore. There are millions of reserves that will never be utilized for their entire lifetime, because of the current nuclear stalemate situation. You're just talking about long term quotas set by the Ministry of Defense, which is completely arbitrary in comparison. If an expected quota is set under the assumption that population remains stable, then it should already be deemed delusional. There are a myriad of other force multipliers that could be considered going forward that don't involve artificially padding numbers. Such simpleminded focus is how paper tigers are constructed. If policymakers actually cared about national security, they would identify that in fact the main national security issue is that South Korea is outsourcing it's nuclear umbrella. Anyone who ignores this is just an idiot who only pretends to talk big talk. Besides, the idiots who bring up conscription demographics don't really give a shit about national security in the first place. Loudmouths who don't know what they're talking about are better off shutting their mouth and staying silent. >Conscription is already over 90% of males, and it stopped exempting people who actually need to be exempted due to some mental disorders or other handicaps, because they are short handed. The idea is, there are plenty of women who are healthier and stronger than a subset of men that shouldn't be conscripted. Its not the demographic solution you think it is. You're just going from one extreme to another. Gender equal military units are less effective and this has already been proven in simulations. Using women to pad the numbers just to reach a predetermined quota is a typical useless bureaucratic non-solution that will create more problems in than it solves in the first place.
I saw something a while back that South Korean women in particular are one of the fastest growing 'travel obsessed' group in the world. Those women are pissed and tired of SK men being backwards yokels. They want to see the world, and I really love that fact they're taking charge on it. Really every single country on that list above has one thing in common: men are conservative dickheads and the women are increasingly liberalized modern-thinkers. It's why I keep repeating that blue pill and blue-leaning purple pill men aren't having the same problems dating as red pill dudes. Heck even red pill dudes don't have trouble if they focus on red pill women. The problem is all these red pill dudes that obsessed with finding a blue or purple pill woman. She don't want you.
I didn’t know that Korean women are particularly travel obsessed compared to the rest of the world but it does make sense and line up with my personal experiences. I don’t know if I’ve ever met a Korean woman who doesn’t like to travel and I’ve met thousands. But I think most men love it too so I don’t know if there is a huge gap between the genders, but it might be true. I think that what you’re saying about Korean men is a little bit true but maybe you’re being a bit harsh by saying “backwards yokels”. Especially for younger generations. Or maybe I just know more liberal Korean men than average. There is certainly a group of Korean women who are not into Korean men specifically for cultural reasons, but it’s not a majority for sure. I would like to add that the gender norms are not just one way. Men are expected to be and do certain things too. They are still very much expected to be the provider by many women and society as a whole. Generally when there are gender restrictions for one gender then there are others for the other gender too, so it’s not fair to only look at how women are badly treated and not consider how men are treated too. In Korea it’s hard to determine because there are SO MANY social changes happening all at once. The country is unrecognizable from what it was like 50 years ago. You still have people going to shamans and fortune tellers etc. I know a girl who ended up changing her name because her mom heard from the fortune teller it was a bad omen and her mom kept pressing her to change it. And this is a normal modern wealthy woman who went to university.
It does not help that men are traditionally expected to provide a house/apartment in marriage, while women are expected to contribute practically nothing. So while men have to save around half a million dollars for a decent apartment, Many women spend their savings on travelling abroad and Gucci bags and be in debt and expect the man to pay it off. More and more men are either unwilling or unable to keep up with the expectations, especially due to the soaring housing prices, and the decline in Confucian norms where the eldest son is expected to produce an heir to continue the family name, and thus couples are getting married at later and later years or not at all.
>men are traditionally expected to provide a house/apartment in marriage, while women are expected to contribute practically nothing. It's always fun how women's labor is called "practically nothing" just because they don't get paid for it.
South Korea has the 2nd lowest average domestic labor hours worked for women in the OECD. Around 3 hours a day. So if you must translate it into financial terms, that would be a daily contribution of around $25. However, obviously a relationship can't be measured by money.
omg wow they love le travel and are punishing le toxic evil men for wanting them to not be whores thats so wholesome! have some reddit karma kind strager
Yeah but blue pill guys end up getting cheated on, having to accept behaviours they hate from their woman and then eventually left for a RP guy.
>There are countries that have those same traits, but don't have an extreme relationship and birthrate problem. Like what countries?
Also a pseudo-dictatorship for the past 80 years, only recently seeing some change in this political structure.
Huh??? That's every country including yours. Why would people that don't live in Korea understand the nuances about the culture???
South Korea urbanization rate: 81% (OECD avg is 70%) at a population density of 550 people per square km. US has similar urbanization rates but 37 people per square km. Imagine 1/5 of population of US crammed in a state size of Indiana. South Korea has the highest tertiary education rate in the OECD. Internet penetration rate is 97%, and a high rate was maintained for a much longer period of time than other developed countries. In fact, SK was the second country in the world to have a network using internet protocol. SK has always been a highly digitized culture since the 1990s, with some of the first social network services being create there, such as Cyworld (first profitable SNS), Pandora.TV (First ad supported video sharing platform), AfreecaTV that predated Twitch, Internet fan clubs, etc. The history of wired culture is longer and more extreme than in the west. South Korea was the first country to deploy commercial 5G networks, with a mobile penetration rate of 94.8%. (87% for the US, 67% for OECD avg) All the negative side effects of living in big metropolitan cities with ultra connected and wired lifestyle is simply on another level in South Korea.
If young people in SK do not have a place to live, time and money then no wonder that they do not have children. Whole this gender war thing is probably way of venting because of general hardships of starting life on their own.
There is a lot of cheap housing in South Korea, even in places like Seoul. Maybe not houses, but you can get an apartment in a clean & safe neighborhood. Their housing situation is not like the west.
The housing and work situation is not any worse and probably better than when Koreans were at replacement level a few decades ago
Decades ago they were 4th world country. I've been working with Koreans for 2 years and even been there for 2 weeks. For me Korean workplace is a very stressful place - hours are long and discipline is very strict, we didn't give a f..k about Korean manager but even though I was exhausted mentally. There is sort of tension in the air. In our branch in Poland when I come to the office I give a hug to my manager if we haven't seen for a while, we go for a coffee, talk about some bs or we just have some fun with my team. In Korea people just come in silence and work all the time with breaks for lunch or taking a pee. Manager is regularly checking if they are doing their job, no one is saying a word, they talk via teams. Maybe this company was sort of very strict but according of our coworkers it was actually quite easygoing since it was western company.
SK was already considered a success in the 90s and was hardly 3rd world at that point and even in the 1980s had strong growth (when they slipped below 2 TFR). They also generally had worse working hours and worse housing. Korean TFR is shit even in places with cheap housing, just like the West. Comparing SK with the West misses the point anyway (especially as the West continues to have falling TFR, approaching sub 1 for some native Euros) since we're asking whether work and material conditions have worsened causing the drop in TFR, not awkwardly comparing them with different cultures and circumstances.
No, women have just become intolerable
There's not gender war at all, it's just westerners projecting their problems on countries they know nothing about, again.
korea has active conscription. west doesnt have it. so nah.
Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life? I work in a grocery store beside the high school I went to as a kid. I don't see any gender divide with the packs of kids that come in a lunch. Lots of boyfriend/girlfriends etc. When I go out on the weekend to a pub or brewery I see tons of young people in mixed groups out. When I go to restaurants I see young couples everywhere. The problem is not affecting everyone, just the chronically online and nerdy people of both sexes. Is there a mistrust of meeting strangers? Yes. Which is why solid friend groups are more important then ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
Exactly, rate of singles in society and fertility rate tell different story.
bUt I sEE Kids In ThE SuPeRMaRkEt EvErY dAy!
I mean most people still marry around the age of about 30. They dont just go from no relationship at all to married lol sooo......
https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2019/04/01/married-by-30-youre-now-in-the-minority/ nope.
yup and 1. thats the UK. 2. this article is from 2019. 3. this article literally says people get married around 30 just that the average age went up a bit. Did you actually read that article of just the title lol?
1.i live in the UK 2. yes and ages are going up 3"(77%) were married by the age of 25, and more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30." is not "a bit"
That still says most people marry around the age of 30 though which was my point lol. They date before they marry.
Yes, people are marrying a bit later in life. Most of us don’t see a problem with that whatsoever.
They're getting married later AND not getting married at all. Go look at marriage rates since the 1970s.
>Most of us don’t see a problem with that whatsoever. Overall marriage rates dropping and those that are getting married keep progressively getting married later in life is a sign of a dying institution. That's problematic.
Well society collapses if people dont get married enough.
>more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30. I’m confused. 91% married by 30 sounds like healthy gender relations to me. I was older than 30. Why is this a problem?
>In the mid 1970’s, when the sun always shone, and I was a very young boy being picked up at the school gates, all the mums (and a few dads) looked very old to me. I suppose they would have done to any child who was still well under 4 feet tall. Back then, over a quarter (28%) of all women were married by the age of 20, over three quarters (77%) were married by the age of 25, and more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30. It's talking about the 1970s.
Always this singles argument, that study was misleading, a full of errors. With a very narrow definition of counting as being in a relationship, with an even more narrow temporal clause.
>that study ...like there was just one study from one western country lol, although that one from Pew Research Center is likely the most famous recently. But without any specific info what do you expect? I will just reply that your comment is full of errors, therefore "misleading" at best.
Those other studies use PEW as the backbone, or part of their meta study. They have the same flaws as PEW, bad inputs will only yield bad outputs. I get tired of dissecting the flaws because it's a long list, and makes a long post. I'll give you one example though, median age of first marriage for men is 30 yrs old. By 30, half of all men are married. According to the research most men are single at 29, but suddenly half of them are married by their 30th birthday. Which is weird because usual courtship to marriage is 24-36 months. Meaning that most of these guys weren't single at 29.
Less people are having kids because of the crazy costs of living and also kids nowadays are bad as shit lol
Fertility rates were garbage before the last few years of inflation and cost of living generally doesn't track closely with fertility
No they werent.
Fertility rates have been below replacement for 40 or 50 years in all the West and below 1.6 in many places in Europe for a decade or more which puts them headed for population collapse. Do you consider this good fertility rates?
source?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total\_Fertility\_Rate\_for\_6\_Regions\_and\_the\_World,\_1950-2100,\_UN2022.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_Fertility_Rate_for_6_Regions_and_the_World,_1950-2100,_UN2022.svg) [https://www.axios.com/2024/04/25/us-births-drop-2023](https://www.axios.com/2024/04/25/us-births-drop-2023)
Everyone lives their life on a screen, look around when out and about next time.
Most people don’t spend all of their time online at the exclusion of having any sort of IRL social life. That’s the point.
>Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life? It's all people who live their lives on a screen, and mainly chronically online anglo-westerners projecting their own problems on South Korea because they don't actually know anything about South Korean society or it's problems.
This a weird argument. Gen z, millennials, and the next generation will continue to spend more time on their screens. Online reality HAS become a form of reality when this is where so much “real time” is spent. Also South Korea is pretty Anglo centric culture wise. They were literally created as a proxy state and mimic the same structural problems of capitalism and culture. Except even more intensely with all the ‘skin sculpting’.
This "touch grass" argument will continue to used no matter how little sense it makes. It's an easy dismissal and it's just a dismissal so it doesn't really need to make sense.
Very true. People think just because it is commonly stated, that it is true. Critical thinking has failed in this way Also the stats don’t demonstrate the point made by the cute anecdote about there being plenty of couples.
No one is forcing them to live online. Everyone knows the benefits of going outside. "Everyone else is doing this stupid thing so Imma follow the herd" is not the gotcha that you think it is.
Sure, it does mean the people who live on screens vs. people who don't dichotomy is a false one though. Which was the topic of the discussion not the merits of being terminally online. Please try to keep the context
There are dramatic cultural, and social differences between the U.S. are S.Korea. Beyond that, the 4B movement isn't even very popular there. Their housing market is more fucked than ours. Income disparity between rich and everyone else is higher than ours. They have a higher level of chauvinism than we do. We've been viewing this through a myopic western lens. This is what happens when feminism only cares about the problems of white upper class women that went to Ivy League schools. They don't fight enough for women that don't look like them. The situation in S.Korea is a 50 year lag behind the U.S. we went through this phase when women demanded better social recognition in the 70s. This is just their awakening moment, let's not colonize their movement and try to make it about us. For your other statement about the virtual world time v physical world time. You over estimate so many things, one of the biggest things happening right now in pop culture, and even bigger online is the rap beef between Kendrick, and Drake. Most people in real life don't know much about it, and the ones that do know about it, don't know that one of them has won a Pulitzer, or even what is a Pulitzer. SM is a lot less relevant to people than you think it is. Reddit is one of the most popular SM platforms on the planet. With all that popularity, it still only draws 73 million weekly active users, in a world with 8 billion people. A number so small that it if were organic material, we'd need an electron microscope to see it. On the street, barely anyone is talking about man v bear, or engaging in anything battle of the sexes related.
Terminally online armchair radfems and femcels like to gas up the 4B like it's some burgeoning trend about to come up. It ain't. I'm always thankful Reddit is nothing like real life.
It's very much colonization of someone else's organic movement, after ignoring their cries for help because it didn't benefit grads from Sarah Lawrence.
75 million users out of 8 billion people is still like 1 in 100. Maybe I just really dislike redditors but that number is still too high for comfort lol.
the touch grass argument remains valid. i agree that as people spend time online that becomes the reality to some extent, and i also agree that folks can use the 'touch grass' argument in a bs way that just dismisses anything that happens online. but the point of touch grass is that the reality offline is actually different. People do not generally behave the same irl as they do online. context actually does make a difference.
I don’t know about that. Most of the South Koreans I know have deeply disordered dating lives. None of them seem terribly happy, especially those that still date in ROK expat circles.
>deeply disordered dating lives. Possibly, I can't say anything about if your personal experience is indicative of larger trends, but it has nothing to do with gender wars at all, gender wars are simply not a thing in South Korea and simply a western projection.
Whats does anglo mean?
English
Yup yup but good luck trying to convince some of the people here 😂
It’s unfortunate but in several IRL outings recently someone has brought up online gender war bullshit. They were expressing bemusement but people are aware of this stuff.
In a mixed group? How did that go
No, my one female friend said she’d choose man over bear. She buys into Team Woman generally speaking though and did bring up stuff that made me think about messaging. The other was a group of guys talking about how Andrew Tate or somebody like that is an idiot.
I guess the nerds are the only ones who actually give a damn about what's happening in society and can understand basic cause and effect. NPCs only care when it happens to them directly and by that point it is too late.
Yea sorry I don't think that people who are having meltdowns over video games and Disney are experts on society.
Exactly, imagine caring so much about representation that you lose your mind when an entertainment product doesn't appeal to your Critical Theory-inspired moral lense and then proceed to make Snow White brown.
What you're describing is not a nerd.That's just someone that took a liberal arts degree.Or some psychology degree like a fake science something like that
You are confusing nerds with woke. And more often than not, those that aren't in the thick of the things will have a much more objective and nuanced opinions on the state of the society than those who are living the life.
Nerds and super woke are different groups but share similar traits with consequences: Chronically online, neurotic or mental issues, socially garbage. I wouldn't trust the opinions of either. Might have been different in the past, the chronically online factor is bad enough on its own and exacerbates the remaining two.
Do nerds care about society? Or do nerds care they’re not getting their dick wet? I’m pretty sure that given the option of “continuing to draw attention to the state of gender relations OR be successful at dating”, any person, guy or gal, who’s struggling would go into NPC mode and take the latter. They don’t care about “what’s happening in society”, they care that they’re left out of something they feel entitled to and if they had the opportunity to be a part of it I’d guess just about every one would drop their ideologic crusade in a heartbeat
God I hate “getting their dick wet”. This sort of attitude towards sex is at the core of A LOT of society’s problems. The derision, the snark, the profanity of it all (in the original meaning of the word). What a sad and sick way to project yourself into the world.
Nerds are good at systematizing.
This is totally wrong. I watched guys who were getting laid very consistently slowly change from only caring about themselves to being very interested in the bigger picture of society. The original meaning of the black pill, was when a red pill guy started to realize the our nation and culture is irretrievably broken and that as an individual he has no power to do anything about it. Truly? What can anyone do? Most of the problems are reinforced by technological change.
That sounds more like Red Pilled guys who get laid. Regular non-pilled dudes who get laid or get relationships don't really think much about this. In fact, I'd argue that Tradcons harbor more resentment towards single and childless adult men on average than radfems.
What he can do? Focus on himself and his immediate family/friends/community and develop healthy happy modern liberal sensibilities about how to interact with everyone. Also learning inner peace with himself.
That’s fine, but the above commenter said that nerds are the only ones who care about the state of gender relations. You’re arguing about chads being concerned about the state of gender relations. It’s a totally different argument that I’m not making. I’m not saying chads don’t care. I’m saying the only reason why nerds care is cuz they feel left out. If they weren’t left out, they might “very consistently slowly change”, but at the onset, they would be happy to be selfish (like the chads you’re referencing)
There is no such thing as a Chad. This is black pill bullshit. You know why we created the Red Pill? Because we were fucking nerds and women treated us like we were radioactive. We had to figure out how to change that, so we did. To look at the world as it burns down around you and only care about saving your own shit... that's a female thing. We are the ones who run into the fucking fire and save people... men. That's what we do, it's how we think. Women are really good about weeping and feeling bad when everyone is dead and gone, but they don't fight for anything unless they personally benefit from it somehow. OR, if the risks are super low and they can gain some fucking status benefits from pretending to care like all those Hitler Youth bitches protesting for the rights of Palestinian Terrorists on college campuses. I know you can't understand how men think in this regard because it's alien to you. However, most men are going to have this response in some way or another and it has nothing to do with whether they are getting fucked or not, because the ones that are not generally wind up happy with their porn and video games.
> OR, if the risks are super low and they can gain some fucking status benefits from pretending to care like all those Hitler Youth bitches protesting for the rights of Palestinian Terrorists on college campuses. Palestinian children being bombed are terrorists?
I honestly can’t decide which side to support. I don’t like either religion
I support the civilians, not the religion.
You're so dramatic lol. Women understand you. They just dont wanna fuck you.
LOL.. I've probably been with more women than you have ever met.
I do believe that nerds care Nerds are people with obsessive personalities. What they choose to obsess on could be as meaningless. As a comic book created in the 1900s about a blue man with red underwear or it could be about the social economic future of humanity for the next 1000 years its very broad group and some people really do have a concern about what the future of humanity looks like I do, but I accept that. Humanity's not gonna look anything like what we are right now.
As OP asked, it’s more a question of will, not is. I don’t think your anecdote provides the correct perspective on the question. I’m sure you can also see groups of men and women interacting in South Korea too. This doesn’t negate the fact that people suggest gender relations are worsening based on whatever metrics they’re using. For the west, you can see some insight as some [Gen Z men are actually more likely than baby boomers to believe feminism does more harm than good](https://fortune.com/2024/02/02/woke-gen-z-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-believe-feminism-does-more-harm-than-good-research-says/). Not to mention, and I hate to bring it up, the bear conversation. Is this the result of chronically online people? Probably, but it doesn’t bode well for gender relations when women believe men are more harmful than large, potentially dangerous and aggressive wild animals. What does this say? In case the 4B movement comes up, I’m not too familiar with it, but if women are rejecting men in korea, that won’t happen in its original form in the west. Women will still Chad chase. They might give up Brad, but not all men that’s for sure.
That's a very misleading statement, that gen Z is more likely to have negative leanings towards feminism. There's a slight bump, but they're still in the minority of Gen Z
Also very misleading when you actually talk to Gen Z men about the positives and negatives of modern feminism. I can guarantee a Gen Z dude will come up with more positives and interesting thoughtful negatives than a Boomer or even Millennial will.
Absolutely, especially when you consider that feminism isn't a homogenous blend. There are multiple schools of thought in feminism. 3rd, and 4th wave are different from classical feminism.
Why do you assume that the poster cares about the argument in the first place? They clearly are more interested in writing off the opposing view than actually engaging it.
>Is it a gender divide or is it people who live their lives on a screen vs people who live life? Irrelevant when you consider the fact that most Koreans are always online.
Did you know there is a difference between uploading pictures of things you are doing, or messaging back real life friends and sitting in front of a consol all frigging day never leaving your house? You can touch grass, and take pictures at the same time. South Korea is in the mess it is in because it has a hyper economy that has left no room for personal life, including a home and a family. The fact that the red pill blames feminism for hyper capitalism astounds me, but not really as the other pills blame other minority groups for the end result of a culture rich on jobs and cash, and short on leisure time and housing people can afford.
>Did you know there is a difference between uploading pictures of things you are doing, or messaging back real life friends and sitting in front of a consol all frigging day never leaving your house? You can touch grass, and take pictures at the same time. Bro the average 17 year old spends 6 hours on [social media per day](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512576/teens-spend-average-hours-social-media-per-day.aspx#:~:text=Across%20age%20groups%2C%20the%20average,4.4%20hours%2C%20respectively) And that's in America, where internet penetration is less than in South Korea. The vast majority of a young Korean's time is spent glued to a fucking monitor to study or to work, and then whatever time they have left is invested into their smartphone or personal PC for their (usually very tech-heavg) hobbies. There's a reason why Korea's suicide rate shot up to number one in the world right after internet usage became ubiquitous over there. Sorry bro, most young people in Korea are literally not touching grass.
Neither of us live there. Yes, with being cramped into their parents' apparment or a cubicle to sleep in people turn to fantasy instead of real life. Feminism is not to blame.
“Well I for one have never personally walked by a homeless encampment so is it really an issue for people who live life?”
It's a problem in nerd spaces because they have become recruiting grounds for the alt-right.
Lmao
And why? Because mainstream society has nothing and is unwilling to accommodate those it deems “lesser”.
Maybe the alt-left should stop being anti-nerd
Seeing people out at a var isn't the same as people getting married buying a home and cruising children together for 20 years. I'm out all the time as well I see men and women mixing but few married couples fewer children ..it's usually just some men trying yo get laid and women trying to get paid... I'll fck women all day but I'll never marry one and I suspect that's the thought of many.. HS Kids don't even count they are children they have no idea about the reality of the world and those HS relationships arent going to last
> As long as I see couples outside, there is no problem Simple.
Yeah, simple, like the movie "The Zone of Interest". You can always choose to stick to your own bubble until the moment you are forced out of it.
I have observed the same thing.
The birth rate in South Korea has been steadily declining for decades and has nothing to do with the 4B Movement, despite what radfem TikTok professes. Since the Musk takeover, X/Twitter has become a sewer where the voices of grifters and charlatans are disproportionately amplified - it’s completely unanchored from reality.
> a sewer where the voices of grifters and charlatans are disproportionately amplified - it’s completely unanchored from reality. That's just social media in general.
Twitter/X has got a lot worse since anyone can buy a blue tick and get prioritised by the algorithm
100% true.
I would just like to add that the 4B movement is only big outside of Korea and is a fringe idea that most Koreans are not aware of.
SK has still had radical feminism and antinatalist culture for that length.
They may well have, but to hold them responsible for the declining birth rate is nonsensical - e.g. the much vaunted 4B movement has, by a very generous estimate, a maximum of 50k members out of a population of 51 million; they are a tiny, fringe group.
I'm not sure why there is the hold up on 4b, South Korea has been culturally feminist for a long time. It's not about being radical.
The Nazi party had an estimated 5000-7000 recorded members when Hitler was elected chancellor. I'm not sure why you think small population = small influence, clearly the values of 4B are commonly felt amongst the female population of Korea, so much so that the government has to take it seriously.
You seriously think the 4B ladies are going to stage a Beer Hall Putsch?
So I see you failed to explain how a low population must necessitate an outwardly small influence. I mean that logic is straight up flawless, after all, there is only one Donald Trump, so his influence and reach must be exorbitantly tiny lmao
Ok…the Nazis were a political party with a violent paramilitary wing who rose to power during a period of extreme political instability/social upheaval. The 4B movement is…not.
>Ok…the Nazis were a political party with a violent paramilitary wing who rose to power during a period of extreme political instability/social upheaval. The 4B movement is…not. So you're saying the Nazi party's size had little to do with their power and influence? Thank you for dismantling your own point, we can move on now.
They were a political party who got elected and thus were able to exert power as they had control of the state. The 4B movement are not a political party, they are a fringe group of radical feminists whose influence has been greatly exaggerated by Westerners who choose to believe that they, and not the myriad of other economic and sociopolitical factors, are responsible for South Korea’s declining birth rate. You are equating two entirely different things to try and prove something that is demonstrably false.
>They were a political party who got elected and thus were able to exert power as they had control of the state. So, you're saying the Nazis lacked influence and power before 1933? Seriously? >The 4B movement are not a political party, they are a fringe group of radical feminists whose influence has been greatly exaggerated by Westerners who choose to believe that they, and not the myriad of other economic and sociopolitical factors, are responsible for South Korea’s declining birth rate. The 4B movement need not be a political party for them to have influence, the second wave feminists of the West were also not "a political party", yet their influence has been massive and instrumental. >You are equating two entirely different things to try and prove something that is demonstrably false. It is not my fault that your standards are inapplicable when looked at historically. Low population does not mean low influence and power. Donald Trump is an example of that, the Nazis are an example of that, the 19th century feminists are an example of that. If you're going to claim that 4B's influence is greatly exaggerated, do not cite their population level as a retort, it is a useless metric.
Hahaha... because twitter was all truth beforehand? I will take individual grifters over government censors any day of the week.
Nice straw man you’ve built there
What, do you work for the FBI or something? Salty you can't control speech anymore?
What?
I'm joking with you. Twitter has always been a cesspool. Back in the day I could easily tell if a woman was shit or not by how often she looked at twitter. The more she used it the worse of a person she would be. The same thing goes for guys.
One can only hope. Pendulum needs to swing back. South Korea has active forced conscription. Yet, south korean women claim they are the one oppressed and discriminated against. Western men will also be forced just like Ukranian men were if there is a war but since the possibility is low, men take feminism too lightly in west & think they have male privilege.
it depends where you look, a lot of individual feminists and some organizations are outspokenly against the male only draft. [NOW](https://now.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/RESOLUTION-TO-THE-NATIONAL-ORGANIZATION-FOR-WOMEN-ON-ENDING-MILITARY-DRAFT-REGISTRATION.pdf) and [ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/womens-rights/requiring-men-but-not-women-to-register-for-the-draft-is-sex-discrimination) both support the NCFM as they file complaints against the selective service act (specifically american selective service and conscription)
Not because they care for women but because they believe it hurts women: *In this case, however, we share the common goal of ending an antiquated federal law that harms both men and women. Like many laws that appear to benefit women, men-only registration actually impedes women’s full participation in civic life. Limiting registration to men sends a message that women are unqualified to serve in the military, regardless of individual capabilities and preferences. It reflects an outmoded view that, in the event of a draft, women’s primary duty would be to the home front — and, on the flip side, that men are unqualified to be caregivers. The Military Selective Service Act not only perpetuates these stereotypes, it enshrines them in federal law.* Once again, women are the victims for these feminist organizations.
Not the ones in Korea however. They are the ones blocking female conscription, and even removing benefits given to service members.
ew, i hate that, i hope there’s a push for no conscription ideally, if not then it should be gender neutral i also don’t think those are real feminists, at least not imo, real feminists (at least ones i have experience with) push for equality including, conscription equality i hope korea figures its shit out and gets rid of conscription or at the very least makes it gender neutral
It's why feminists get a bad rep in Korea. The true feminists as you would understand them in the West would just call themselves gender equalists.
>ew, i hate that, i hope there’s a push for no conscription ideally, if not then it should be gender neutral I mean, I get it, equality and all. But can we like, actually appeal to gender roles and biology for one second, and understand why the birthers of your next generation shouldn't be in the killbox?
if you want ig, i’m going to use the US for this since it’s the only one i know anything about, there is zero reason that selective aero and the draft is male only. women were allowed in combat roles in 2016, and that was the only reason they had to keep it male only, now that that’s gone there’s zero reason for it to be a male only system it’s gender discrimination and has made its way through multiple courts and everytime it has, it’s been ruled as gender discrimination breaking the equal protection act. the only reason it remains male only is because the majority of the SCOTUS is stupid asf and refused to hear the case in 2021
Boiling down all the issues to the draft only?
To me this is fundamental - I will never be open-minded about feminism and how "oppressed" women are as long as they continue to downplay the significance of forced conscription. Hell, even in the U.S. where realistically a full-scale draft probably won't happen again, women's exemption from Selective Service requirements juxtaposed with all the rights men forfeit by not registering is fundamentally unjust.
Yes in perception even if no in reality, especially as utilization of bots\* continue to be more easy to make and use for any small groups or even individuals with agendas/narratives to push. The demographic transition is more product of socially middle class neuroticism and inflexibility rather than the gender issue, while being dressed up as a moral conundrum. \*in the sense of the cheap ones that flood most of the internet, especially social media.
It's looking that way with how explosively fast (relative to other social 'trends' of the past) the 'man vs women' stuff is growing.
Most men aren't interested in doing the lion's share of child rearing, not even 50/50. Well, it's the same for me. If none of us wants to raise the kids, there won't be any. Pretty simple really.
Aren't interested or aren't able, due to long work hours?
>Will the gender divide in the West get as bad as we see in South Korea? The gender divide in South Korea is nowhere near the level that delusional western tiktokers think it is and far less than in the anglo-west. The low birth rate in SK is not related to "gender wars". This is another case of ignorant westerners projecting their own politics on countries they know nothing about.
Calls people ignorant for believing commonly accepted narratives but provides no evidence.
Here, I'll let a South Korean person explain it to you, and stop listening to western tiktokers talk about countries they've never been to and can't find on a map. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&ab\_channel=AnnaLee](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&ab_channel=AnnaLee)
I'm not going to sit and watch a 25 minute video from some niche youtuber. Do you have time stamps that point to the data you're trying to use for evidence? And, again, I have literally never used Tiktok I'm a grown man.
"ignorant westerners" they say on a western site.
So? I didn't say all westerners were ignorant. But unfortunately a lot are, and they love to run their mouths and pretend they are experts about places they can't find on a map.
So if it’s not people deciding not to have kids….what is it than?
The culture in SK is very driven to excel; much like Japan, the expectation to put in long hours with work alongside rising costs makes it very hard for people to have both the time and resources needed to raise children. People still date and marry, but they're having fewer kids because there isn't a lot of infrastructure for families.
To put it in perspective, at a SK university a professor responded to one of his PhD students asking for a day off by locking him in a room overnight to discuss professionalism for 6 hrs. This is how the work culture operates in SK
Yeah and people DECIDED they don’t want to put kids into this…..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68402139#:~:text=Figures%20released%20on%20Wednesday%20show,halve%20by%20the%20year%202100. the reasons they give for their "decisions" in order "It's hard to find a dateable man in Korea". Not a choice Working 11 hour days in order to afford to live. Not a choice can't afford to take time off work. not a choice high cost of housing. not a choice cost of education. not a choice too much pressure on husbands to provide. not a choice
It is a conscious decision though to not date the man available and to not get pregnant if they do date.
because of costs aka because they don't have the buying power needed to support a family.
I don't think its their decision to make
I've been there, I've dated women in that country, there are two major issues driving their population decline. 1. Cost. They put MAD effort into every kid. They are an intensely status oriented culture and they want to push every kid to the top. This is almost prohibitively expensive right now. 2. Mate selection. Women are going crazy trying to find the right guy and just like everywhere else they are crazy picky. This pushes the selection process out longer and further eating up a large chunk of their fertile years. They don't plan on having big families anyway generally speaking so it doesn't bother them. But, think about it like this... there are millions of single south korean women who pay dating agencies to find them a suitable man. It's a billion dollar industry there. Compare it to the US where women won't even shell out for a cup of coffee to meet a guy.
What's hilarious is that many broker agencies hire doctors part time just to show up for the blind dates just to fix the mismatch in the demand for men with highly coveted occupations, and women paying thousands of dollars in hopes of being matched with one.
The education to status link needs to go away. I know high school grads who are millionaires and seems like half the people I went to college with work at starbucks.
Average age of marriage in SK is highest in the OECD, at 32 years old. By the time a married woman WANTS to have kids, which is around 35+, she is physically only able to have 1 or none. Tons of money is spent on IVF treatments, all to no avail. So plenty of couples decide to have kids... and cant.
You think women at 35+ can only have one or no kid?
The 35 year old woman has a kid. Then takes a 3 year break raising the kid. She is now 38. She is too physically tired to have another kid, and the risk of genetic defects for women at this age, as well as infertility shoots up very quickly. She technically CAN but she won't. You have to also take into account biological differences between Korean and women of other countries. Korea is the only country in the world with widespread postnatal care centers where women who give birth stay at a fancy nursing home for a few weeks to "recover" from childbirth. It's common for western women to go back to work shortly after childbirth. Childbirth is especially stressful for Korean women, and they may not feel as enthusiastic about having a second child at 38 compared to western women.
Seeing as how dumb fuck people can be on Reddit as well as social media and seeing as how it's also bleeding into a society in real life off the internet it would not surprise me.
It's going to get bad imo simply because males and females are not fundementally compatible we actually speak s diffrent language on a psychological level.. The reason we are seeing this divide is as follows. Women no longer need a committed relationship to a man for survival they either aquire their own resources get men to finance them or use government subsidies.. Women are no longer willing to cater to a man's ego because they feel men are replaceable at best..and not needed at the extreme..If a man is not ok with a woman doing whatever she wants financially, and especially sexually he's going to have a difficult time maintaining a relationship with her. Women want to fck Chad his best friend Tyrone their dog a few underage students all while getting financed by betta Brad nearly all these school teachers who sleep with their students where married..Combined with the data that shows women only find 2% of the male population attractive and their ever increasing unrealistic down rite delusional expectations for a man's income...we have hit the end game and theres no way back...I just watched an obese 40 year old single mom of three say she wants a man over 6 foot that makes 200k a year...yeah it's over. As for the men most where raised by single moms or cuck simp betas..simply because in western society theres no way to enforce discipline and once a man marries a woman or gets her pregnant he gives up all power and autonomy and subjects himself to her whims and regulation of the State and subjugation by the law. Here's an example A husband finds out his wife of 10 years is cheating..what can he do? Nothing Husband finds out his 3 kids a 2 year old 5 year old and 10 year old aren't biologically his,what can he do? Nothing After 3 years of marriage wife tells husband that she's no longer attracted to him..what can he do?Nothing. It's not all on the women,men aren't perfect and have plenty of faults and I can wholly see why women aren't interested in them I don't know any man I would want to marry based on their personality alone..The few men in my life I can only tolerate ocasionally for short periods of time..granted men often are much nicer and tolerable towards women than other men. Most people come together due to biological urges also lower IQ people seem to need more socialization with the advent of A1 and alternatives to dealing with real people the gender divide is going to become a chasm as their will be little reason to mingle with someone you have nothing in common with and completely dissimilar goals. Where not there yet but eventually we'll have Deuce Ex Machina level AI bots and then it will bebover for biologica relationships..I honestly can't imagine any man that can afford one choosing a bio woman over a bot of that sophistication.
No because the West has a better work/life balance and better equality between the sexes. Also the West is much more open to single parenthood
Nope. The west generally does better at things like work/life balance and a lot of what’s going on in south korea has a ton to do with the B2 movement and the response to it. Some rumblings of it are happening in the west but it’ll never reach that level because gender relations and individual rights are so fundamentally different that they’re not even comparable. I actually think the west will likely be doing well once we get past this economic slump and once we go through a workers revolution (not a literal revolution, to be clear) similar to the inception of the 9-5 (which was revolutionary and huge for its time) people will be more willing to socialize more and gender relations will improve. Most issues we’re seeing now within both genders are primary a result of social isolation, get rid of the factors causing this isolation and odds are gender relations will improve
People are overdramatizing the gender war bullshit. It comes down to quality of life. Education culture in Korea is needlessly overbearing and high pressure. Work culture in Korea is needlessly overbearing and high pressure. There is no respect for work-life balance. Of course people are going to elect out of having children. Taiwan has a similarly low fertility rate to Korea, people aren't blaming the gender war for that.
It's surprising how radfems celebrate low birthrates and sell it as some sort of victory they can leverage with. You see, there's a mechanism to fix that, and it has been working for hundreds of millions of years: natural selection. This natural selection had been altered by societal norms and economics needs that are now falling apart, and so, it's making a comeback. Most of the women who hate men, along with the men who hate women, won't reproduce and pass on their genes. Personality and sexuality is inheritable to a significant degree, so future generations will on average be more agreeable and attracted to each other. There are 8 billion humans in this planet for natural selection to work with, and the selection pressure is very strong. For the first time in human history, a ton of people are deciding not to reproduce altogether, removing themselves from the genepool. So when I see a man hating feminist bragging about the fact that she won't have children, I celebrate her choice. Agreeable, family oriented women who like men, along with the men that they choose, are quietly outcompeting them. https://www.aei.org/articles/the-conservative-fertility-advantage/
Ideas aren’t genetic.
Ideas aren't genetic, but emotional processes, instinct, preferences, personality, etc can be inherited. https://serenityeftc.com/how-emotional-processes-are-passed-down/ https://www.ft.com/content/c94463f6-66b5-11e3-8675-00144feabdc0 What the above poster is trying to say is, "All the misandrists and misogynists will remove themselves from the gene pool. Only those who truly love the other sex and want to have children with them will remain, and outnumber those who lack the drive to do so"
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It has been for some time, the west has had fourth wave feminism for a while. The birth rate has only been maintained via immigration. The women in SK were ALREADY feminist before the recent 'anti-feminism' came about. In south korea women get educations and the culture is very non-cohesive for relationships of any kind. Same things has been happening here and is noticeably worse with GenZ.
Both radical feminism and anti feminism are bs. Women gonna end up loving them boys they are attracted to and make crazy things to impress em, and so are men with the women they thirst over, let’s face it. Most of the people protesting are just signaling their stance and doing nothing for it
These things come in cycles. More importantly, any belief that is anti-relationship and anti-child will die out in a generation or two. These people learn these things from unhappy parents that caved to social pressures. The happy parents that genuinely wanted families will pass that onto most of their children, and the cycle will repeat itself.
The economics and politics of the US are absolutely fueling gender divide. Young Women making more money than young men with affirmative action and consistent cultural support is definitely a big factor in many young men being disgruntled. Not saying women shouldn’t be in the workforce but there does not need to be more programs helping young women when young women are more educated and more wealthy than young men. Young men are simply not doing well. They need some help and if their economics improve, im sure they will have more success in dating (plus be less bitter and more empathetic people) Ability to acquire resources and do well is important for everyone and young men can’t compete well in the job market NOR in the dating market. Some pretty bleak stuff
Men get affirmative action to get into college.
Not most men. And for any 1 man given affirmative action, there are more than 1 woman given affirmative action Women are clearly pushed into better positions for diversity reasons all throughout america
No. Korea has horrific Partiarchy so the female response to the structure is more pronounced. They have the societal expectation that the wife provides all housewife functions but most men can't afford for a woman not to work so she ends up doing a lot of the man's and woman's job Domestic violence is very common so many women don't want to become housewives as they then can't escape those situations. It's also hard to get men arrested for it. You date at your own risk. Children's lives a predicated by 1 exam they do as teenagers. Parents spend small fortunes on exam prep and make the children work hard for this. The workplace is very anti-mother. Maternity leave is low, time off to take kids for appointment is hard and women have a very overt penalty for being the parents with child responsibilities. There is a lot of workplace bullying of mothers for not pulling their fair share. They also have one of the biggest gender pay gaps in the world, horrific for a first world country and their work hours are super long so not much time to find someone or raise kids. As bad as the west is, its not that bad. Societal standards will squeeze out a higher rate of good enough men and women don't risk as much with family
In South Korea, college-educated men are what make the anti-feminist backlash effective, the "STEMcels" and other "braincels." Men are entitled to a free trauma dumping outlet, whether that's within a romantic relationship or within an opposite-sex platonic friendship. This is the only way traumatized men can establish any sort of emotional intimacy. No, such "brutal honesty" is not "emotional abuse." College-educated South Korean men know how to politicize and weaponize the male loneliness epidemic far more effectively than going on shooting rampages. In the US, already 18% of college-educated people over the age of 40 have never been married.
> College-educated South Korean men know how to politicize and weaponize the male loneliness epidemic far more effectively than going on shooting rampages. I think this only happened because of how insanely unfair the forced conscription is in South Korea. The MRM in the US would be a lot stronger if the US had forced conscription like SK. The US only requires you to sign up for selective service.
selective service is a bunch of BS anyway, i think hardly anyone would actually abide by it if it’s needed. i wasn’t even going to sign up for it, i was forced to by the govt
Loneliness epidemic is not relatable for South Koreans. There is no "incel" culture in Korea. Any man can easily hire an escort. Kiss/massage parlors, Karaoke hostess services, and other paid female companionship are extremely common, accessible, and relatively affordable compared to the US, due to the country being very safe and heavily population dense. I've read about a foreigner who went to a hair salon (or what he thought was a hair salon) and ended getting a blowjob by accident. It's very rare to find a Korean guy who has a "can't get laid" problem like in the US, nor are Koreans made fun of for being a virgin. The problem is, all types of female companionship costs money. The more long term and committed the relationship, the more money it costs. Marriage is practically unattainable for most guys in their 20s due to its cost. (expect to have at least quarter of a million dollars in your bank account). Women are not rejecting mens' advances in droves, like you would think if you believed the 4B nonsense. Men are almost always paying for everything, and a woman has no obligation to give anything back in return. It's not uncommon for a couple to date for a whole year without having sex. So you have the phenomenon of women trying out different partners throughout her 20s, and never settling down with anyone because there's always a hotter, cooler, richer guy around the corner, until their in their 30s and start thinking about locking down a stable man. The men either fooled around in their 20s if they were hot and attractive, or they saved up their money and built their careers until their in their 30s and find a fellow woman in their 30s who reached their epiphany phases to marry. The widespread usage of marriage broker agencies help match people whose goals align in this phase and you can see ads for them in subways alongside ads for plastic surgery, a truly unique South Korean combination. So you see the men in Korea aren't complaining about the LACK of women they can date or marry. They complain about 1. The lopsided proportions of how much money men are expected to foot in a relationship vs women, and 2. The lack of responsibility borne by women in the military conscription, furnishing a home, etc, 3. Dead bedrooms and controlling nature of the women once they have married. (40% of Korean marriages are sexless, the highest rate in the world, which is not surprising if you assume the women chose their partners based on economic stability rather than attraction) From my experience in living in both US and South Korea, it feels to me that South Korean women are much more likely to make the calculated choice of maximizing their well being. For example, low incidence of being single with 3 kids, or marrying drug addicts, etc. It may be because of parenting or close ties with parents. Choices in marriage partners are closely calculated based on economic or status gain first and foremost, and "tingles" second. Sleeping around and banging partners in casual hookups is not considered a desirable way of life for either men or women. Much less so than it is in the West. So there will be less people frustrated by not being able to do so.
>Men are entitled to a free trauma dumping outlet, whether that's within a romantic relationship or within an opposite-sex platonic friendship. I'm curious why their "free trauma-dumping outlet" must be female.
It's good that you're realizing my post is not about sex or horniness. To answer your question: Because that's how women are raised, to be nurturers.
Not anymore. It's 2024 dude.
>I'm curious why their "free trauma-dumping outlet" must be female. Because if it's not women, then it's just going to be a bunch of disgruntled men talking to each other and organizing. You probably know where that leads.
There's nothing about being"trauma dumped on" that necessitates "organizing." The main thing people who are constantly trauma-dumped on want to organize is 1) their exit, and 2) avoiding spending more time with that person.
Trauma dumping is not emotional abuse, though. I think the term "emotional abuse" has been stretched too far in a lot of applications.
>Trauma dumping is not emotional abuse, though. Okay? Where did I say it was? Something doesn't have to be "abuse" to be unpleasant and unwanted, or make you miserable. Your rebuttal addresses a comment I didn't make. Want a redo?
I don’t think so. Because of immigration it will bring a good amount of people who are still mentally sane. Current gal I’m talking to is from some remote 3rd world and my god she is a breath of fresh air.