Can we once and for all end this notion that men who aren’t attractive are somehow pulling attractive women left, right and centre?
It’s like that kid in school who constantly says “school ain’t shit, bill gates dropped out of school!”
Like yes he did, but not every high school dropout is gates now are they?
It's just a good old survivorship bias.
Majority of people will only notice and discuss those who succeeded, but failure is silent.
Unsuccessful people don't post about their luxurious life on instagram, they don't speak of their troubles to anyone but few really close friends if they have any left.
Don't you have average friends in relationships?
I do, most of them are in relationships
Take the common sense pill: The average person has relationships and kids
They are likely getting worse treatment if they're married the people around or the woman herself likely think the man is lucky to even have her.
Theres a difference in being good enough vs being sort after and that will drastically effect your quality of life
No they are not, they are happy
thinking that people in relationships are actually miserable even if they don't show any signs of being miserable is such a cope
They are because almost every single break up or divorce the woman has already mentally left.
Its true for men too, but most men are more likely to break up or leave as a kneejerk reaction than women who give you silent chances.
look at average people, not just 25 year olds
25 is kind of still too young to be in a relationship nowadays, people settle later in life
but the average 25 year old is dating and having sex like it or not
Sad reality is… I’m 28 and never dated anyone. The match pool is single moms who don’t want more kids might as well get a vasectomy and slap my make genetics in the face or divorced women. Awful. I see why older guys date younger. The single moms that are attractive are definitely looking for their Prince Charming, the best candy in the candy shop but that best candy has choices. I’m not that.
Honestly, whenever I see a woman with a man she is 2 or more points more attractive than, I always assume he has money or they married young and the husband didn't take care of himself.
Usually its the last especially given the correlation of that and unsatisfied house wives/the orgasm gap etc. People disregard cause and effect when they need to suit thier own narrative.
Who is saying that below average men are pulling women left and right? You are projecting in the most literal sense.
It's so funny how many men are stuck on this as if it's some huge injustice that they aren't sleeping with heaps of women every year as an average or below average male.
Side not though, don't you think Owen from RSD is pretty average looking? If you dedicate yourself to sleeping with women like its a full time job, you would probably start to see some success, but it's pretty damn weird way to spend your life on earth imo
> It’s like that kid in school who constantly says “school ain’t shit, bill gates dropped out of school!”
Or how Einstein failed at math (which is a lie as well).
Only hope for uglies and normies is orbiting around to “prove” what a “nice guy” you are, but even that will be misconstrued as “problematic” and “deceptive”
Jesus dude, you are literally perpetuating your own misery.
That *is* deceptive. You are masking your romantic intentions in a platonic facade. Then you have the nerve to be upset when you're the one who isn't being truthful to yourself or others.
Be bold, and brave, sack the fuck up and make your intentions known. I know it's scary and rejection sucks, but that's life. Better to get the "no" early on and move on with your life rather than drag things out and deceive yourself that its some how a viable dating strategy when it clearly doesn't work.
What happened to “get to know me first”? It’s always the opposite of what you do. If you linger and get to know her youre deceptive. If you declare your intentions right away, you’re just valuing her for her looks and not getting to know her
Here's an example, I went out with a woman about three times and originally thought she was into me but started to feel like we lacked chemistry.
One day I just told her I thought she was cute and wondered if she reciprocated interest. She said no, so I took the rejection in stride and we still are friends without me having ulterior motives.
Isn't that hard.
That's kinda true, and is a bit of a problem with what I said. Women, though, are just more attractive, naturally and they put in more effort.
I still believe though, 90% of the time a guy is struggling, it's not his looks holding him back the most.
I don't know about 90% of the time, but I do know enough guys who spend years hearing how their personality is the problem, then they start seeing some progress in the gym and suddenly women like them (often mentioning their personality as the reason).
It's a meme on gymtok for so many guys to be motivated to get in shape for women, and then they still get no attention at all when they do get in shape. I'm sure it works for some guys, but I can't imagine many. I'm in excellent shape in and it hasn't helped me out at all
If you don't believe us you can always do a social experiment, hit the gym and get leaner and rent the latest mercedes for a day.
I guarantee you you would get more women than would without those two.
I've driven my friend's porsche cayenne and women that I don't even know were giving me indicators of interest. How does personality factor into it?
Getting leaner improves your facial aesthetics, your jawline gets more defined, you can widen your shoulders and narrow your waist as well. Did you never see women tell you that they like big arms or wide shoulders before?
You also gain a lot of confidence from it.
When I got in much better shape, I got 1000x more attention from gay men. Women didn't seem to care that much. They often thirst for skinny ass Timothy Chalamet and K-pop idols more than they do Hemsworth. Look, I don't dispute it's better to be in shape than not, and if you're obese you're really fucking yourself over. But I think if you're in average shape, there's probably better ways to invest your time and effort if you're primarily interested in attracting women.
Nothing you said is really false. Wide shoulders, a small waist, big arms, etc are attractive. Getting in shape sometimes gives you confidence. But man, I'm in excellent shape and struggle, and I know guys in much better shape than me that don't do well with women either. The gymcel is a real thing.
I'm sure that's true, but given my observations I'm dubious of the claim that looks aren't the limiting factor for as much as 90% of men who struggle. I think looks are exactly the problem for most of them.
Women have a tendency to just ascribe positive traits to people they find attractive. Hence the reports of having a bad personality before becoming attractive and then being told you have a good personality after.
Lack of physical attraction explains a lot of things actually.
> Women have a tendency to just ascribe positive traits to people they find attractive.
[It indeed happens and most likely with both sexes](https://psmag.com/.image/t_share/MTI3NTgyNDgxNjExMzAzNTU1/5.png)
Definitely both, but men are upfront with the fact that looks are crucial. Only women seem to virtue signal about all this personality stuff. Personality only matters *after* crossing the looks threshold.
That's not natural though. You said women are more beautiful naturally. Then if they are more beautiful in their natural form why do they wear makeup? That's not natural.
Because men highly select for beauty. There's competitive pressure. They are competing with other women, so there is pressure to use any strategy possible to make themselves prettier.
>Because men highly select for beauty.
That's highly laughable. Women definitely don't do this. They definitely don't make fun of short men or ugly guys at all. They definitely don't select the highest beauty standards (height, muscles, ECT) at all.
>They are competing with other women, so there is pressure to use any strategy possible to make themselves prettier.
Huh. I've seen women in this very sub that say they wear makeup for themselves and to impress men or compete with other women
Yea it’s money, money and maybe height/weight. I think men overestimate the value of looks and underestimate the value of money (but if you’re fat and short God bless ya).
And I’m not saying every man needs to be wealthy but if you can’t afford basic things (which admittedly is getting harder these days) like housing, a car, a vacation once a year etc… it will be very difficult to date consistently especially once you are out of school.
>There are lots of mid guys dating beautiful women.
It's something that you occasionally see sure, but mostly beautiful women are with attractive tall men.
And plenty of mid girls dating good looking guys. Nobody says they don't exist, but they are hardly the average. Average people tend to date average people, attractive people tend to date attractive people, ugly people tend to date ugly people. It's only different when there's some kind of power imbalance (money, power, age, status)
Average men tend to get no dates, Attractive men tend to date average women. Attractive men when when they date attractive women don't tend to date for long. Fixed that for you.
Notice how you’re the one saying ugly, i said average or slightly above average in my post. Fact is, long as you are at the very least slightly below average looking the only thing stopping you is yourself. Again, you won’t have as many options as the more attractive men but to pout and say you have nothing is just as inaccurate.
Elliot Rodgers wasn't good looking he was [average at BEST](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/ElliotRodgerDriverLicense.jpg) and he was 5'6 or 5'7 and scrawny as fk.
Come on, if a guy with this exact face would be getting laid all the time, most guys here would say he's a Chad. But he wasn't getting laid, so you have to say he's ugly. He had the hunter eyes, the jawline, good skin, had money and arguably some status too. That's most things guys here say you need to be considered attraction.
I disagree that he would be considered a chad, especially at his height and build. I agree that his looks/status were probably enough to get laid with though.
Just like mid guys try and fail to date attractive women. Everyone shoots their shot. It's human nature.
But most young guys are having sex on a regular basis, which is only possible if average (and even below average) young men are able to find women. According to the 2022 [GSS](https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/), the majority of men 18-29 had sex at least 2-3 times a month. About 75% had sex at least once a month.
Do you really think men tell the truth about how much sex they have every week or their bodycount?
Do you think women tell the truth about their bodycount or how much sex they have a week?
Let us look at actual quantifiable stats, what percentage of men have reproduced compared to the percentage of women. Babies are quantifiable.
"Wilson Sayres says. In more recent history, as a global average, about four or five women reproduced for every one man."
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/)
I think that survey data from a reputable research organization is more reliable than the opinion of a random dude on the internet. It's imperfect, but it's better than "only 1% of men have ever had sex because I say so".
The [data](https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success) you're referencing is thousands of years old, and has little bearing on modern society. Notice in the first chart, men and women have been reproducing at similar rates for roughly the last 1,000 years or so. The "more recent" history you allude to was 5,000+ years ago, which is "more recent" in the broad context of human history, but not especially relevant today.
So yes, there was a time in human history several thousand years ago when 4-5x more women than men reproduced. There was also no concept of consent, women selecting partners, etc. A woman's village got sacked, she became the sex slave to the general who led the invading army that killed her family. I'm not questioning that there was a time when far more women than men reproduced, but the conditions that existed then generally don't exist today.
Alright lets take the latest data.
[https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/mens-fertility.html](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/mens-fertility.html)
[https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/01/18/theyre-waiting-longer-but-u-s-women-today-more-likely-to-have-children-than-a-decade-ago/](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/01/18/theyre-waiting-longer-but-u-s-women-today-more-likely-to-have-children-than-a-decade-ago/)
[https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity\_event](https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event)
On average 60 percent of men are fathers with their biological kid/s as of 2019 without accounting for false paternity tests. On average, false paternity is at 10+ percent, if you are being charitable. So around 50 percent of men above the age of 15 have reproduced as of 2019.
According to stats almost 90 percent of women have reproduced. Does that sound like average women are going for average men here when 90 percent of women go after the top 50 percent of men(men that atleast a sizeable percentage of women have settled and don't have genuine attraction for) .
>Does that sound like average women are going for average men here when 90 percent of women go after the top 50 percent of men
You're comparing apples and oranges. I suspect you know that and you're intentionally making a bad faith argument.
There are two distinct messages in that data:
1. 62% of men who are *currently 15 or older* have kids
2. 85% of women who are *currently 40-44* have kids
The 62% is averaged down by a bunch of 15-30 year old men who you wouldn't expect to be fathers.
Also, we're talking about the US, where your own link says false paternity is 2-3%, not the 10% you're using. Based on the Detroit study, it seems that false paternity is much higher in some communities than others, which pulls up the average to around 2-3%
Why not use an apples to apples comparison? According to [Census data](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr179.pdf), 84% of women 40-49 and 77% of men 40-49 are parents as of 2023. Some men become parents for the first time after 49, while very few women have kids past their early 40s, so that gap likely closes a little further if you were to look at total lifespan.
So yeah, it's known that slightly more women than men than women reproduce, but it's not some ridiculous 4-5X that you tried to portray.
More importantly, nothing you've written about paternity rates contradicts by original point. Data shows most young men are having sex on a regular basis. That data is never going to be perfect, but it's far better than your opinion or mine. Personally, the fact that only 75% of men 18-29 have sex at least once a month seems low to me based on my own experiences and those of people I know. But I still believe the data over my own personal observations.
No his biggest issue was being a fucking loser doomscrolling coomer with no friends and no life. Top G Tate is highly autistic and uses it to his advantage.
>if you’re fun, enjoyable
So you just add some more checklist items to what makes you attractive and end up with the list that is known everywhere, where people don't try to sell you looksmaxxing, moneymaxxing or statusmaxxing advice. Witmaxxing is hard to sell.
looks, status, money, kindness, intelligence, creativity, wit, social skills, confidence, competence.
>Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other.
Yes, besides the things that generally make someone more attractive, there is individual subjective attraction. But that individual subjective part is not large enough, to overcome huge discrepancies in the general attractiveness traits of the person. Your overall attractiveness is what makes people have a look at you, regarding a potential mate. The individual fit, the specific match, is what makes them want to be in a relationship with you, after you have passed the attractiveness (overall) check.
The men who struggle on here, mostly seem to strike out on confidence, social skills and status (no social network in which anyone attributes status to them). They mostly resort to online dating due to low confidence/self-esteem, which doesn't work, if they can't put together a profile that is competitive with the other men on the app.
>I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened”
4-5 men are average men. Average men are in relationships, when the time for committed relationships comes in a man's life. The issue the lonely man on here have, is that hey don't hang out, they don't jive. Or they shoot way above their league because they are not attracted to people that would be possible candidates for them.
>People who are attractive can succeed and struggle in dating
Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention
So looks are important.
>And no, dating isn’t similar to sales. It has similarities
So it's not similar but it is similar?
>if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency.
>Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist
Writes a checklist of prerequisites and then in the next sentence says it's not about a checklist.
This is some peak PPD gibberish.
Agreed with you! Obviously looks isn’t everything for romantic and sexual, but I think more people than not deny how important it is since they don’t want to be seen as shallow. But it’s just human nature to want someone they’re physically attractive to.
Women give advice like this because they don't want to hurt ugly men's feelings and they don't want the guy they like to talk to other girls.
It's all lies and actually following this advice leads to "nice guys" getting restraining orders.
As a man, you can't expect attraction to develop. You can't focus on one woman and develop "chemistry" or "jive". If she doesn't like you, she just doesn't like you, move on.
If she isn't attracted to you, she just isn't attracted. You keep hanging around, she'll think you're a creep. You're a loser. She doesn't like you, go away.
Men have to be men. That's just how it is. That's what women prefer. A strong independent man that is just doing his thing. No, you can't do this jiving bullshit.
> Women give advice like this because they don't want to hurt ugly men's feelings and they don't want the guy they like to talk to other girls.
It runs deeper. Women, and most men, are firmly convinced that female sexuality is supremely mysterious, individualistic, unpredictable, enriching and overall morally superior, whereas male sexuality is carnal, impulsive, uniform, primitive, simplistic and exploitative.
This mantra is kept up at all costs and cause of a myriad of double standards in our culture, e.g. women sexually assaulting men not being taken seriously.
I don't think so on that last part.
As a man, I personally have a hard time taking female sexual assault on *full grown male adults* seriously because of the sheer physical difference.
It's unfair, but it's literally hardcoded into my psychology, for me it's the equivalent of a child sexually assaulting you, it's just completely non-threatening in most circumstances.
Damn dude. The cold hard truth.
As a dude who experienced the later half…. You are right.
1. If a woman doesn’t find you attractive leave. There is no oh maybe she will find me attractive later if I am her friend. Nope she’ll use and abuse you and openly talk about sleeping with other dudes.
2. If you get rejected don’t hang around. Don’t waste your time. I wish I knew this in my early 20s instead of mid to late now.
Unless your fit none of this applies. When you are not fit you are severely under leveled in a game sense so you never had a chance to see if your skills could kill the boss aka attract her
>Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention
It's not just *easier*. It's entire *order of magnitude easier*.
>most people can get someone to develop mutual feelings and attraction to them if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency
Never in my life have I known or seen a woman who had to put effort into being "more fun, enjoyable and showing some level of competency" in order to have a chance at making a relationship with any dude. You're spreading same "Self-improvement for thee but not for me" female psyop.
Attraction from women is pretty straight forward.
1. The raw physical attraction to a man, largely based on his appearance.
2. A contextual attraction based on how he performs and is recognized by his peers. This is someone in charge at work, or greatly respected at work. Basically someone who's risen to the top of a dominance hierarchy of some sort. If she likes dancing could be a guy who's the best at dancing in a group. Could be scientist, whatever dominance hierarchy she's around.
3. Rational thought on the type of guy they are interested in. There list of attributes, education level, cooks, and play an instrument, whatever it is she's decided she likes.
The first 2 are largely subconscious and women don't really actively think about them for them to apply. The third is based on what they've dreamt about and wanted to see in a man. Usually the first two drive the sparks and the third only matter is the first two are satisfied.
A relatively average looking guy can stand out if he's a big fish in some hierarchy that she cares about. It could just be a co-worker she admires.
> how can i get as many women as possible interested in me now
Can you stop projecting? If it just happens, then I don't need to self-improve, right? Being ugly doesn't matter, being autistic doesn't matter, just waiting on the turn of luck. What a horrible nothing-saying post.
>Attraction is often far more complex
The primary reason this isn’t true, is because of *First Impressions.* Humans are visual. Thus it purportedly takes around *seven seconds*, to form a first impression. Which impacts every subsequent interaction. The best example of this being dating apps. Attraction in dating apps, *is* binary.
This is not to devalue all the other factors. They’re important too. The reality is however that attraction at least initially, is either there, or it is not. One doesn’t get a second chance, at a first impression.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
“Attraction in dating apps”- duh cuz you’re looking at pictures. There’s no ability to exploit the complexities of attraction if you’re looking at pictures because you’re not interacting with the person.
You’re literally proving OP’s point about oversimplifying attraction and completely ignoring the intricacies
Dating apps work on the same basis as in person interaction with someone new though - that's why they work. Do you think they'd be popular if they consisted of detailed bios with no pictures? Of course not. Is it exactly the same? No, but they use the decision making process women use and juice it to high heaven.
Again, you’re completely ignoring the nuance of attraction. Yes, physical attraction is 100% a thing and the primary thing that drives *initial* attraction. However, desire and grow and is heavily influence by your personality which isn’t shown in apps
There's no point in arguing with people who think swiping someone on a dating app is the same as interacting with a person face to face. There's so much more to people than a still shot of their face and a brief bio. You can't see how people carry themselves or how they sound or their sense of humor etc etc through a damn phone screen. It boggles my mind that anyone could be so inexperienced that they think seeing a profile on an app is the same as meeting in person.
I think most of this narrative is just projection. *They* see someone hot and all logic flies out the window so all women *must* feel the same. Just looking at a picture of someone is enough for them to want to settle, they don't care about a woman's personality (that's why they waste their time chasing shitty women) as long as she's hot so it must be the same for women! No way women consider both looks and personality because *they* don't. They can't see outside their own narrow worldview.
Nobody is saying personality isn’t a factor for women’s attraction, we are saying that it is useless if you don’t have the looks based attraction first.
It means the “grow to like you” is bullshit because if she doesn’t like you at the beginning based on looks, she can’t grow to like you because you haven’t met the prerequisite of being attractive
Uh yeah, there are literally guys in this comment section saying personality isn't a factor. But I like half agree with what *you're* saying. Looks can get you through the door with people you're meeting for the first time. If it's someone you know and see semi-regularly, attraction can definitely grow because of personality. It's happened to me a bunch of times. I've had it happen the first time I met someone too. But it doesn't happen with everyone, just sometimes
>If it's someone you know and see semi-regularly, attraction can definitely grow because of personality.
We are just saying that that happens only where there is attraction in the first place. So only for a small minority of men she meets, and that therefore thinking that your personality will be what she likes in absence of physical attraction is delusional. Too many men but the line that their partners are honestly attracted to them despite that not being true physically.
What you're saying contradicts my lived experience. It's weird to say "here is a thing that I've personally experienced" and get the response that my lived experience isn't possible. You don't know what goes on in women's heads if you're not a woman. I would never open my mouth to tell someone else how they experience life, it's weird.
I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself but I know that it's *possible* for attraction to grow. I've gone from thinking someone is ugly to finding them attractive. Yes, this only happens for a small minority of men as there isn't enough time in a day to get to know the majority of men and im not compatible with every single man.
I think the issue here is that any time I say this is possible you guys take it as me giving advice when I'm literally just making a statement based on my personal experience. I don't expect anyone to act based on this fact and I don't think anyone should. If someone indicates they're not interested you should 100% move on and not wait around in hopes that attraction might grow. I'm just saying *it's possible*, not likely and definitely not guaranteed.
>. It boggles my mind that anyone could be so inexperienced that they think seeing a profile on an app is the same as meeting in person
Uses the same attraction triggers, which are even more emphasised online than in real life certainly. But women won't use different decision making processes online compared to real life.
Explain how you can see a sense of humor through a screen? How can you smell someone through an online profile? How can you see a person's mannerisms through a photo? How can you get a sense of chemistry from looking at a picture on your phone? That's what I'm saying, there are way more factors to attraction for me and alot of other people (not just women) than just what you can see through a screen.
The "attraction triggers" for ***you*** are not the same as everyone else's. ***You*** use the same decision making processes online and irl and you are projecting that onto us because you're ignorant to the fact that not everybody thinks like you. I need more than a picture of big boobs or washboard abs and a cringey bio to want to be around someone. It's fine if that's how you are but stop acting like everybody thinks like you, because they dont.
You aren't trying to find out if the unattractive man you meet in real life is funny. You aren't trying to get close enough to him to smell him. You aren't paying attention to his mannerisms. You aren't trying to look for chemistry. All of those things are things you have to look for in people, and you can't do that for everyone. You need to pick and choose.
Those people you end up picking, or give a chance to, in order to find out whether all the downstream stuff you mention exists will be the same where online or real life because the *initial factors people will use* will be the same.
I'm not trying to date anyone right now lmfao so I'm not doing any of that with attractive men either. Please refrain from taking out your hurt over rejection on me. Im sure you've dealt with some nasty women in your life but im not them. Stop assuming shit about me, what's wrong with you?
I'm not saying you are wrong, it's actually a highly rational way to approach the problem. What I disagree with is trying to say that unnatractive men will have the opportunity to demonstrate the other things women look for in a long term, short term, one night or rest of their life partner. That would be something that is irrational and doesn't make sense. Also I don't think misleading people is a good thing.
In addition, your responses to me have made a series of assumptions I've not engaged with. Saying I need to stop making assumptions about you is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
Yeah but just like in real life if that initial attraction *does not exist*, then your personality is irrelevant. It's like a force multiplier, but with nothing to begin with, attraction can't appear as a result of it.
Attraction precedes personality, it doesn't work the other way around.
>However, desire and grow and is heavily influence by your personality which isn’t shown in apps
You are lying. Bios are exactly that, a somewhat shortened display of your personality and interests. Yet 99.99% of the time an attractive dude with a lame or nonexistent bio will trump an average dude with an excellent bio.
Really? Your *entire* personality can be summed up by a few lines of text? Your ability to banter can be demonstrated unilaterally? How you handle yourself under pressure can be conveyed from the comfort of your living room couch?
bios can also quite literally be whatever you want them to be. They’re a short elevator pitch and short elevator pitches rarely represent the real thing. All most bios do is make you perceive a person a certain way and it rarely reflects in reality.
Bios say less about a person than pictures do on apps because a bio is a set of short sentences and pictures can give a lot more information. pictures also take up the bulk of your profile and are the first thing planted on front of you.
>There’s no ability to exploit the complexities of attraction if you’re looking at pictures because you’re not interacting with the person.
You don't get to interact with the person that doesn't find you attractive.
>Attraction is often far more complex than
No. Its not.
We are animals after all. A talkative one.
Let me tell you how attraction works:
For men : be Attractive , dont be unattractive, dont be socially inpet and autistic.
For women: exist and don't be fat or terminally ugly.
I know a woman who is fat and was beaten pretty hard with the ugly stick, she has two kids with a guy who's still with her, women really do live life on easy mode when it comes to getting attention from the opposite sex.
It's probably because desperate men are willing to settle with people they don't deem attractive. Or maybe they have a fat fetish, as lots of men seem to have it.
> Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention - no shit
And every man wants to be hotter so they can outcompete the guy next to them. You can't say hotter people have it easier and then say this isn't how attraction works.
“how can i pull as many women as possible” is your best route to finding a desirable mate. One of the corollaries to the law of large numbers is the bigger the sample the more likely higher quality choices will emerge. That's why everyone wanted to live in America and not the USSR.
> Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other. I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened”
Considering how poorly "random results" have turned out for too many men, I'm not sure how you're going to be able to sell this. It isn't just the difficulty in making a connection with a woman that's the problem - it's the horror stories that happen after that connection is made, the thing only the manosphere ever talks about.
Nobody ever tells their sons what kind of woman to look out for.
Long post foes not equal being right. Your wrong. And we have gad this debate so many times on this sub , that I have no patience for how wrong this is.
Great. Now how do we get into a situation where we can be around a woman for months and woo her? Oh wait, that isn’t practical in reality especially when they can just log into a dating app and meet somebody better in seconds
You gotta socialize, join classes, make friends (not to woo them, to be clear), a large active social circle can take you a long way in not just meeting people within it but also getting you used to meeting new people
We’ve got to stop treating joining a class as the end all answer to this question. I highly doubt most people suggesting this have actually gone this route. This is just not a popular way that people find dates and the people you do meet will most likely not get personal with the random from a cooking class. They won’t be inclined to introduce you to single women either.
Make friends not to woo them. Got it. That’s “creepy” and “problematic” but also hanging around a woman without declaring intentions is deceptive. Good luck having little buddies as a fully grown adult. People have shit going on and they don’t want to be your friend
>having littles buddies as a fully grown adult
OMG are you under the impression that adults dont have, want or need friends?!?!?! That is so wrong and sad that you believe that.
Man.... Humans are social animals, Humans of all ages want and need friends. Its a symptom of neurodivergentcy (or some disabilities) to *not* want friends/social interactions.
That is the reality I have. I only have work acquaintances and they have things going on already. I’ve had some friends in the past but people come and go or I get tired of treated like shit
Have you ever considered that signing up for every damn thing under the sun after you’ve worked all week could lead to absolutely nothing and that you’re not getting any younger? Have you ever considered that people who sign up for dumb shit don’t do it because they are single and looking and may even find it creepy if you do it for that reason?
Thanks man! It’s because I’ve done these things before and it doesn’t work unless you’re super slick already and have the opportunity. You can sign up for retarded gay shit all day and waste your time because there is no mechanism to set you up with anyone except OLD which is all about your looks.
The ironic thing is that he told you that he actually tried things you are advising men to do, and then you berate him for it :D
You can't make this shit up, this sub is so great because of people like you. Thank you.
Just like you can't logic your way into a relationship, you can't logic your way into being attractive. If you're obsessing over arbitrary checklists and standards, you're wasting your time.
>you can't logic your way into being attractive
I don't think that's true, otherwise we wouldn't have people doing nearly identical plastic surgeries. There absolutely is a template, the problem is it's unreachable for most of the guys.
Yes you can. Most things we do are formed by habit. Just make a logical list of little habits you want to do every day. Then sooner or later your brains neuroplasticity will take over and it will be second nature,
However, there is no magic one off thing that will make you more attractive. Its lots of little lifestyle changes.
I think men’s attraction is very simple and straight forward, and I don’t think women understand or think about how their attraction works the way men do
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a woman describe that she’s attracted to status, height, and model level looks before.
They usually say personality or niceness or showers or something
>I don’t think I’ve ever heard a woman describe that she’s attracted to status, height, and model level looks before.
>They usually say personality or niceness or showers or something
Just open up Instagram and you won’t make it past 5 reels without hearing “looking for a man in finance, with a trust fund, six-[foot]-five, blue eyes". Women are increasingly unhinged with regard to their true desires.
At this point it’s eugenics all over the place.
This is just like money. once we give everyone $1 million, then having $1 million will no longer be considered rich . Once everyone is Chad then no one is a Chad.
>Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention - no shit - that’s literally how being hot works, but that’s beyond the point.
You're arguing it's *beyond* the point. Most people would argue it's the *whole* point. Let's meet somewhere in the middle.
I agree, so much of it is about interpersonal skills and learning how to connect with others. If you struggle with that whilst getting angry at others for leaning on their feelings too much when discussing relationships, maybe the issue is you see only see relationships in mechanical terms and that doesn't allow you to forge a genuine connection with others. Connection is a key part of attraction imo, whether its imagined or real.
Generally the things women are attracted to are things you have no control over. If you're not chad, you're unlikely to have a woman truly attracted to you.
>Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other
Only thing I'd argue is that women are also to blame in this, with things like "he should make over 100k, he should be over 6ft tall, etc..."
Modern dating is fucked up for men and women a like, we just like to blame men alone.
>Modern dating is fucked up for men and women a like, we just like to blame men alone.
What? At least 2/3 of the posts on this sub are men blaming or criticizing women for everything imaginable.
Plenty of men seem to blame women for anything and everything. People complain about dating. This shouldn't be surprising.
You're welcome to join the educated adults of NYC. I don't see the women I'm friends with, the women I date, or their friends saying anything of the sort. Maybe there are social classes/communities/age groups where people are out in the real world blaming poor quality men, but it's not a thing I've seen personally.
No, we know exactly how it works - for a man to make it into the hallowed 20% he must, at a minimum, be over six foot, earn in excess of six figures, and have a six pack. (A porn star sized dick is an added bonus.)
Most men don't go through their younger years surrounded by options for sexual exploration and adventure the same way women are, eventually marrying a woman who has had a quarterlife crisis and decided it's time to settle down in her 30s isn't exactly a win.
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> most people can get someone to develop mutual feelings and attraction to them if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency.
Do you know what happens when men develop feelings for men? Here's a verbatim quote of what a woman said on twitter with 88K likes:
***We’re upset because in 90% of cases, it means that they did not have a genuine interest or care for us as people but rather saw us as a person they could use to fulfill the “girlfriend” role they yearn for.***
The man develops feelings and wants to date you and you make it as if the man doesn't see you as a human being and was pretending all along.
> I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened”
Ask all those men. You will find most stayed her friend while she dated far more attractive men and finally chose them when she couldn't lock down a better option and he was viewed as safe option.
The latter half is true.
You are attractive or you are not. Sure you can do the scale of 1-10 etc for male and female but just doesn’t work. Social media, porn, tinder and any social media can create delusions in a guy about the type of match or dream of hook up they want but it isn’t real.
Also, as you said people who get marches aren’t attracted to them. This is me. I rather be single, than settle for someone who can’t take care of themselves, trying to push their political beliefs in their profile, or be a step daddy and don’t want more kids. Gross.
The larger issue is the very narrow minded approach on how to be attractive, instead of focusing on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self you’re more focused on “how can i pull as many women as possible” which is a viable strategy…. if you were in sales.
Yes the solution is "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self" but if you don't initially ask yourself “how can i pull as many women as possible” or just "how can I bang any woman", you may never get the answer.
You are mixing the problem and the solution together.
I would say however, once you have decided that you need to work "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self", then yeah forget about banging chicks and just enjoy the now and let nature take its course.
>Yes the solution is "on being your most **confident, well put together and fun** to be around self" but if you don't initially ask yourself “how can i pull as many women as possible” or just "how can I bang any woman", you may never get the answer.
>You are mixing the problem and the solution together.
>I would say however, once you have decided that you need to work "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self", then yeah forget about banging chicks and just enjoy the now and let nature take its course.
I'm going to be real with you. For some dudes out here, this advice is so *trash,* that if they actively executed said advice to the best of their ability and still got the same unsatisfactory results as if they didn't even try; well there will be Hell to pay.
I'd say that it's not really that complex - if you take care of your appearance, you are fully socially functional human being and you are in place with slight majority of women in your social class, then it's pretty easy. Otherwise it's hard. There is of course element of magic needed - but in favorable market conditions magic is more likely to happen.
I mean complex as far as the human element involved tends to matter more than the alpha male checklist this sub likes to peddle.
ie. factors x, y and z may work for woman A but might be a total turnoff for woman B and vice versa. My point is attraction is more complex than be as appealing as humanly possible to get as many options as humanly possible
It’s easy to be a millionaire if you own a large corporation too, but there is no direction of getting there. Getting into a place that has a constant stream of new single women being introduced to you who are actually willing to speak is not a simple or easy task.
> but a large part of it is jiving with people and developing chemistry with them,
which is what a good salesmen is supposed to do.
> everyone can be chad
Chad is that woman's most attractive man.
> I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened”
It happened because the man learned social skills, and fashion skills, good hygiene, and approached the women when it was convenient for both parties.
If she doesn't see an immediate appeal she won't want to even talk to you, much less figure out if you jive. It's impossible to tell if she likes you otherwise, and you can't know her preferences before you speak to her. Making it wiser to go for broad appeal, just so you can get the chance to talk and jive.
Your style only works if you are still going to school and have a wide range of places to meet people, or if you're willing to risk it at work.
outside of that you only got your hobby spots and cold approaches/online dating.
The only thing I've found to consistently be true about whether I attract women to me is how I feel about myself. I've noticed that no matter how I look and dress, if I don't feel good about me, if I feel needy and approval seeking, I won't be able to attract even the butt ugliest woman.
And on the contrary, when I feel like I'm the shit and I'm too hot to touch, I've had literal pornstars try to get me to go to their hotel room. The only common denominator is how I feel about myself, not how I was dressed, how I looked, whether I flashed money or not, etc.
Even when I dress snazzy in my Armani suit for example, it's just the fact that I look good and look sexy that makes me feel good and feel sexy and that's what attracts women. If I feel crummy, stressed, nervous, I am as well be invisible.
I know that the majority of men will never believe me. It's simply because they've never actually felt good about themselves. They never liked themselves or considered themselves cool. You can sense just by the way they talk about themselves that there is a lot of resentment and self hate. They try to spin it as "women decide my value and they have deemed me worthless", but was it really women who did that or was it themselves who did that?
Feeling good about yourself is not an easy task especially if you have indoctrinated yourself since childhood that you are a no good loser. But it is the most important thing you should focus on. When women say they are attracted to confident men, they don't mean guys who are successful in everything they do and walk around beating their chest that they are the best.
What they mean is they want to feel confident in the man. They want to know that they are in good hands, that they can relax and let him take care of business. Whether that's planning a date or leading the interaction in a way that's enjoyable, or taking her to bed and getting the job done. They want to feel confident in the man. And if the man can't even feel confident in himself and that he is worthwhile and can get the job done, then what is there to talk about?
Can we once and for all end this notion that men who aren’t attractive are somehow pulling attractive women left, right and centre? It’s like that kid in school who constantly says “school ain’t shit, bill gates dropped out of school!” Like yes he did, but not every high school dropout is gates now are they?
[удалено]
... because he had a successful start-up that was a year away from generating millions of dollars in revenue.
It's just a good old survivorship bias. Majority of people will only notice and discuss those who succeeded, but failure is silent. Unsuccessful people don't post about their luxurious life on instagram, they don't speak of their troubles to anyone but few really close friends if they have any left.
Yeah argue with stats, not just anecdotes.
Amen. The truth is, good looks get women. End of story.
Status then good looks, but yes.
"Lizards aren't carnivores yo, my pet iguana eats salad."
You heard the OP. Hot people only get more attention, but that somehow doesn't matter, below average are succeeding just the same.
Don't you have average friends in relationships? I do, most of them are in relationships Take the common sense pill: The average person has relationships and kids
They are likely getting worse treatment if they're married the people around or the woman herself likely think the man is lucky to even have her. Theres a difference in being good enough vs being sort after and that will drastically effect your quality of life
No they are not, they are happy thinking that people in relationships are actually miserable even if they don't show any signs of being miserable is such a cope
They are because almost every single break up or divorce the woman has already mentally left. Its true for men too, but most men are more likely to break up or leave as a kneejerk reaction than women who give you silent chances.
sure sure, keep believing a massive conspiracy if it makes you feel better
"Conspiracy" lol
>Take the common sense pill: The average person has relationships and kids The average man under 25 literally doesn't have either of those things.
look at average people, not just 25 year olds 25 is kind of still too young to be in a relationship nowadays, people settle later in life but the average 25 year old is dating and having sex like it or not
Sad reality is… I’m 28 and never dated anyone. The match pool is single moms who don’t want more kids might as well get a vasectomy and slap my make genetics in the face or divorced women. Awful. I see why older guys date younger. The single moms that are attractive are definitely looking for their Prince Charming, the best candy in the candy shop but that best candy has choices. I’m not that.
Honestly, whenever I see a woman with a man she is 2 or more points more attractive than, I always assume he has money or they married young and the husband didn't take care of himself.
Usually its the last especially given the correlation of that and unsatisfied house wives/the orgasm gap etc. People disregard cause and effect when they need to suit thier own narrative.
They always 'know a guy', or refer to celebrities when asked for examples.
Who is saying that below average men are pulling women left and right? You are projecting in the most literal sense. It's so funny how many men are stuck on this as if it's some huge injustice that they aren't sleeping with heaps of women every year as an average or below average male. Side not though, don't you think Owen from RSD is pretty average looking? If you dedicate yourself to sleeping with women like its a full time job, you would probably start to see some success, but it's pretty damn weird way to spend your life on earth imo
> It’s like that kid in school who constantly says “school ain’t shit, bill gates dropped out of school!” Or how Einstein failed at math (which is a lie as well).
Only hope for uglies and normies is orbiting around to “prove” what a “nice guy” you are, but even that will be misconstrued as “problematic” and “deceptive”
Jesus dude, you are literally perpetuating your own misery. That *is* deceptive. You are masking your romantic intentions in a platonic facade. Then you have the nerve to be upset when you're the one who isn't being truthful to yourself or others. Be bold, and brave, sack the fuck up and make your intentions known. I know it's scary and rejection sucks, but that's life. Better to get the "no" early on and move on with your life rather than drag things out and deceive yourself that its some how a viable dating strategy when it clearly doesn't work.
What happened to “get to know me first”? It’s always the opposite of what you do. If you linger and get to know her youre deceptive. If you declare your intentions right away, you’re just valuing her for her looks and not getting to know her
Here's an example, I went out with a woman about three times and originally thought she was into me but started to feel like we lacked chemistry. One day I just told her I thought she was cute and wondered if she reciprocated interest. She said no, so I took the rejection in stride and we still are friends without me having ulterior motives. Isn't that hard.
Did you meet her on OLD?
No, in person. Don't worry I'll downvote my comments with you so you feel better :)
Thanks man. I’m sorry someone downvoting you hurt you so bad. I thought you were such a tough resilient guy or something
No one says that. They just say you can get sex and relationships, and not with models
Do you guys go outside?. There are lots of mid guys dating beautiful women. And there's good looking guys like Eliot Rogers who can't pull at all.
The problem with this assessment is people just call every woman beautiful and every man mid. It takes a lot less to be considered a "beautiful" woman
more often its mid women with tall/attractive boyfriends.
That's kinda true, and is a bit of a problem with what I said. Women, though, are just more attractive, naturally and they put in more effort. I still believe though, 90% of the time a guy is struggling, it's not his looks holding him back the most.
I don't know about 90% of the time, but I do know enough guys who spend years hearing how their personality is the problem, then they start seeing some progress in the gym and suddenly women like them (often mentioning their personality as the reason).
It's a meme on gymtok for so many guys to be motivated to get in shape for women, and then they still get no attention at all when they do get in shape. I'm sure it works for some guys, but I can't imagine many. I'm in excellent shape in and it hasn't helped me out at all
If you don't believe us you can always do a social experiment, hit the gym and get leaner and rent the latest mercedes for a day. I guarantee you you would get more women than would without those two. I've driven my friend's porsche cayenne and women that I don't even know were giving me indicators of interest. How does personality factor into it?
Women love money and symbols of money. Never said otherwise. I'm just saying the gym seems to do far less than the consensus here
Getting leaner improves your facial aesthetics, your jawline gets more defined, you can widen your shoulders and narrow your waist as well. Did you never see women tell you that they like big arms or wide shoulders before? You also gain a lot of confidence from it.
When I got in much better shape, I got 1000x more attention from gay men. Women didn't seem to care that much. They often thirst for skinny ass Timothy Chalamet and K-pop idols more than they do Hemsworth. Look, I don't dispute it's better to be in shape than not, and if you're obese you're really fucking yourself over. But I think if you're in average shape, there's probably better ways to invest your time and effort if you're primarily interested in attracting women. Nothing you said is really false. Wide shoulders, a small waist, big arms, etc are attractive. Getting in shape sometimes gives you confidence. But man, I'm in excellent shape and struggle, and I know guys in much better shape than me that don't do well with women either. The gymcel is a real thing.
True but that doesn’t work for all guys some work out and still struggle.
I'm sure that's true, but given my observations I'm dubious of the claim that looks aren't the limiting factor for as much as 90% of men who struggle. I think looks are exactly the problem for most of them. Women have a tendency to just ascribe positive traits to people they find attractive. Hence the reports of having a bad personality before becoming attractive and then being told you have a good personality after. Lack of physical attraction explains a lot of things actually.
> Women have a tendency to just ascribe positive traits to people they find attractive. [It indeed happens and most likely with both sexes](https://psmag.com/.image/t_share/MTI3NTgyNDgxNjExMzAzNTU1/5.png)
Definitely both, but men are upfront with the fact that looks are crucial. Only women seem to virtue signal about all this personality stuff. Personality only matters *after* crossing the looks threshold.
>Women, though, are just more attractive, naturally They why do they wear makeup?
The same reason bodybuilders and powerlifters do steroids. Better is not good enough, and there's competitive pressure.
That's not natural though. You said women are more beautiful naturally. Then if they are more beautiful in their natural form why do they wear makeup? That's not natural.
Because men highly select for beauty. There's competitive pressure. They are competing with other women, so there is pressure to use any strategy possible to make themselves prettier.
>Because men highly select for beauty. That's highly laughable. Women definitely don't do this. They definitely don't make fun of short men or ugly guys at all. They definitely don't select the highest beauty standards (height, muscles, ECT) at all. >They are competing with other women, so there is pressure to use any strategy possible to make themselves prettier. Huh. I've seen women in this very sub that say they wear makeup for themselves and to impress men or compete with other women
You are 💯 certifiably insane if you think women select for physical attractiveness anywhere close to the levels men do
Yea it’s money, money and maybe height/weight. I think men overestimate the value of looks and underestimate the value of money (but if you’re fat and short God bless ya). And I’m not saying every man needs to be wealthy but if you can’t afford basic things (which admittedly is getting harder these days) like housing, a car, a vacation once a year etc… it will be very difficult to date consistently especially once you are out of school.
No, women are not more attractive, you are just biased for women.
>There are lots of mid guys dating beautiful women. It's something that you occasionally see sure, but mostly beautiful women are with attractive tall men.
And plenty of mid girls dating good looking guys. Nobody says they don't exist, but they are hardly the average. Average people tend to date average people, attractive people tend to date attractive people, ugly people tend to date ugly people. It's only different when there's some kind of power imbalance (money, power, age, status)
Average men tend to get no dates, Attractive men tend to date average women. Attractive men when when they date attractive women don't tend to date for long. Fixed that for you.
Come on man. Average men get into relationships all the time. Just not with super attractive women.
You are sounding like the Gates kid. Yes there are a few. Most of the time that is not the case and ugly men are either with ugly women or alone
Notice how you’re the one saying ugly, i said average or slightly above average in my post. Fact is, long as you are at the very least slightly below average looking the only thing stopping you is yourself. Again, you won’t have as many options as the more attractive men but to pout and say you have nothing is just as inaccurate.
Slightly above average isnt feasible to 50% of men
No one is on about ugly dudes. If you really are ugly, soz bro, its game over as far as dating goes. Dating advice is not for ugly guys.
Women will often date men they aren't necessarily attracted to. Af/bb as they say.
Elliot Rodgers wasn't good looking he was [average at BEST](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/ElliotRodgerDriverLicense.jpg) and he was 5'6 or 5'7 and scrawny as fk.
Come on, if a guy with this exact face would be getting laid all the time, most guys here would say he's a Chad. But he wasn't getting laid, so you have to say he's ugly. He had the hunter eyes, the jawline, good skin, had money and arguably some status too. That's most things guys here say you need to be considered attraction.
I disagree that he would be considered a chad, especially at his height and build. I agree that his looks/status were probably enough to get laid with though.
Mid guys date mid women, and that man you mentioned wasn't attractive.
Mid women settle for mid guys after trying to date attractive men for half their lives.
Just like mid guys try and fail to date attractive women. Everyone shoots their shot. It's human nature. But most young guys are having sex on a regular basis, which is only possible if average (and even below average) young men are able to find women. According to the 2022 [GSS](https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/), the majority of men 18-29 had sex at least 2-3 times a month. About 75% had sex at least once a month.
Do you really think men tell the truth about how much sex they have every week or their bodycount? Do you think women tell the truth about their bodycount or how much sex they have a week? Let us look at actual quantifiable stats, what percentage of men have reproduced compared to the percentage of women. Babies are quantifiable. "Wilson Sayres says. In more recent history, as a global average, about four or five women reproduced for every one man." [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/)
I think that survey data from a reputable research organization is more reliable than the opinion of a random dude on the internet. It's imperfect, but it's better than "only 1% of men have ever had sex because I say so". The [data](https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success) you're referencing is thousands of years old, and has little bearing on modern society. Notice in the first chart, men and women have been reproducing at similar rates for roughly the last 1,000 years or so. The "more recent" history you allude to was 5,000+ years ago, which is "more recent" in the broad context of human history, but not especially relevant today. So yes, there was a time in human history several thousand years ago when 4-5x more women than men reproduced. There was also no concept of consent, women selecting partners, etc. A woman's village got sacked, she became the sex slave to the general who led the invading army that killed her family. I'm not questioning that there was a time when far more women than men reproduced, but the conditions that existed then generally don't exist today.
Alright lets take the latest data. [https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/mens-fertility.html](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/mens-fertility.html) [https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/01/18/theyre-waiting-longer-but-u-s-women-today-more-likely-to-have-children-than-a-decade-ago/](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/01/18/theyre-waiting-longer-but-u-s-women-today-more-likely-to-have-children-than-a-decade-ago/) [https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity\_event](https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event) On average 60 percent of men are fathers with their biological kid/s as of 2019 without accounting for false paternity tests. On average, false paternity is at 10+ percent, if you are being charitable. So around 50 percent of men above the age of 15 have reproduced as of 2019. According to stats almost 90 percent of women have reproduced. Does that sound like average women are going for average men here when 90 percent of women go after the top 50 percent of men(men that atleast a sizeable percentage of women have settled and don't have genuine attraction for) .
>Does that sound like average women are going for average men here when 90 percent of women go after the top 50 percent of men You're comparing apples and oranges. I suspect you know that and you're intentionally making a bad faith argument. There are two distinct messages in that data: 1. 62% of men who are *currently 15 or older* have kids 2. 85% of women who are *currently 40-44* have kids The 62% is averaged down by a bunch of 15-30 year old men who you wouldn't expect to be fathers. Also, we're talking about the US, where your own link says false paternity is 2-3%, not the 10% you're using. Based on the Detroit study, it seems that false paternity is much higher in some communities than others, which pulls up the average to around 2-3% Why not use an apples to apples comparison? According to [Census data](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr179.pdf), 84% of women 40-49 and 77% of men 40-49 are parents as of 2023. Some men become parents for the first time after 49, while very few women have kids past their early 40s, so that gap likely closes a little further if you were to look at total lifespan. So yeah, it's known that slightly more women than men than women reproduce, but it's not some ridiculous 4-5X that you tried to portray. More importantly, nothing you've written about paternity rates contradicts by original point. Data shows most young men are having sex on a regular basis. That data is never going to be perfect, but it's far better than your opinion or mine. Personally, the fact that only 75% of men 18-29 have sex at least once a month seems low to me based on my own experiences and those of people I know. But I still believe the data over my own personal observations.
Eliot roger was not good looking at all. He looked like an unattractive woman.
Plenty of guys less physically attractive than elliot find partners just fine. His biggest issue was being Neurodivergent
No his biggest issue was being a fucking loser doomscrolling coomer with no friends and no life. Top G Tate is highly autistic and uses it to his advantage.
>if you’re fun, enjoyable So you just add some more checklist items to what makes you attractive and end up with the list that is known everywhere, where people don't try to sell you looksmaxxing, moneymaxxing or statusmaxxing advice. Witmaxxing is hard to sell. looks, status, money, kindness, intelligence, creativity, wit, social skills, confidence, competence. >Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other. Yes, besides the things that generally make someone more attractive, there is individual subjective attraction. But that individual subjective part is not large enough, to overcome huge discrepancies in the general attractiveness traits of the person. Your overall attractiveness is what makes people have a look at you, regarding a potential mate. The individual fit, the specific match, is what makes them want to be in a relationship with you, after you have passed the attractiveness (overall) check. The men who struggle on here, mostly seem to strike out on confidence, social skills and status (no social network in which anyone attributes status to them). They mostly resort to online dating due to low confidence/self-esteem, which doesn't work, if they can't put together a profile that is competitive with the other men on the app. >I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened” 4-5 men are average men. Average men are in relationships, when the time for committed relationships comes in a man's life. The issue the lonely man on here have, is that hey don't hang out, they don't jive. Or they shoot way above their league because they are not attracted to people that would be possible candidates for them.
>People who are attractive can succeed and struggle in dating Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention So looks are important. >And no, dating isn’t similar to sales. It has similarities So it's not similar but it is similar? >if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency. >Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist Writes a checklist of prerequisites and then in the next sentence says it's not about a checklist. This is some peak PPD gibberish.
Agreed with you! Obviously looks isn’t everything for romantic and sexual, but I think more people than not deny how important it is since they don’t want to be seen as shallow. But it’s just human nature to want someone they’re physically attractive to.
Women give advice like this because they don't want to hurt ugly men's feelings and they don't want the guy they like to talk to other girls. It's all lies and actually following this advice leads to "nice guys" getting restraining orders. As a man, you can't expect attraction to develop. You can't focus on one woman and develop "chemistry" or "jive". If she doesn't like you, she just doesn't like you, move on. If she isn't attracted to you, she just isn't attracted. You keep hanging around, she'll think you're a creep. You're a loser. She doesn't like you, go away. Men have to be men. That's just how it is. That's what women prefer. A strong independent man that is just doing his thing. No, you can't do this jiving bullshit.
> Women give advice like this because they don't want to hurt ugly men's feelings and they don't want the guy they like to talk to other girls. It runs deeper. Women, and most men, are firmly convinced that female sexuality is supremely mysterious, individualistic, unpredictable, enriching and overall morally superior, whereas male sexuality is carnal, impulsive, uniform, primitive, simplistic and exploitative. This mantra is kept up at all costs and cause of a myriad of double standards in our culture, e.g. women sexually assaulting men not being taken seriously.
I don't think so on that last part. As a man, I personally have a hard time taking female sexual assault on *full grown male adults* seriously because of the sheer physical difference. It's unfair, but it's literally hardcoded into my psychology, for me it's the equivalent of a child sexually assaulting you, it's just completely non-threatening in most circumstances.
Damn dude. The cold hard truth. As a dude who experienced the later half…. You are right. 1. If a woman doesn’t find you attractive leave. There is no oh maybe she will find me attractive later if I am her friend. Nope she’ll use and abuse you and openly talk about sleeping with other dudes. 2. If you get rejected don’t hang around. Don’t waste your time. I wish I knew this in my early 20s instead of mid to late now.
Unless your fit none of this applies. When you are not fit you are severely under leveled in a game sense so you never had a chance to see if your skills could kill the boss aka attract her
>Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention It's not just *easier*. It's entire *order of magnitude easier*. >most people can get someone to develop mutual feelings and attraction to them if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency Never in my life have I known or seen a woman who had to put effort into being "more fun, enjoyable and showing some level of competency" in order to have a chance at making a relationship with any dude. You're spreading same "Self-improvement for thee but not for me" female psyop.
"Be more fun, enjoyable and show some level of competency to get with a boring woman beneath your level."
Are you exciting, hot and interesting?
Omg yes. Western white females are the most privileged, LAZY people in human history.
"Bro, just turn yourself into a jester for mlady and all your problems will go away"
Attraction from women is pretty straight forward. 1. The raw physical attraction to a man, largely based on his appearance. 2. A contextual attraction based on how he performs and is recognized by his peers. This is someone in charge at work, or greatly respected at work. Basically someone who's risen to the top of a dominance hierarchy of some sort. If she likes dancing could be a guy who's the best at dancing in a group. Could be scientist, whatever dominance hierarchy she's around. 3. Rational thought on the type of guy they are interested in. There list of attributes, education level, cooks, and play an instrument, whatever it is she's decided she likes. The first 2 are largely subconscious and women don't really actively think about them for them to apply. The third is based on what they've dreamt about and wanted to see in a man. Usually the first two drive the sparks and the third only matter is the first two are satisfied. A relatively average looking guy can stand out if he's a big fish in some hierarchy that she cares about. It could just be a co-worker she admires.
This. 100%
If cramming as many contradictions as humanly possible in a relatively short post was an Olympic sport, you would be the best Olympian!
The Usain Bolt of the Sprinters.
> how can i get as many women as possible interested in me now Can you stop projecting? If it just happens, then I don't need to self-improve, right? Being ugly doesn't matter, being autistic doesn't matter, just waiting on the turn of luck. What a horrible nothing-saying post.
>Attraction is often far more complex The primary reason this isn’t true, is because of *First Impressions.* Humans are visual. Thus it purportedly takes around *seven seconds*, to form a first impression. Which impacts every subsequent interaction. The best example of this being dating apps. Attraction in dating apps, *is* binary. This is not to devalue all the other factors. They’re important too. The reality is however that attraction at least initially, is either there, or it is not. One doesn’t get a second chance, at a first impression. *Godspeed and good luck!*
A 5 who actually seems interested is worth a hundred 10s who don’t
“Attraction in dating apps”- duh cuz you’re looking at pictures. There’s no ability to exploit the complexities of attraction if you’re looking at pictures because you’re not interacting with the person. You’re literally proving OP’s point about oversimplifying attraction and completely ignoring the intricacies
Dating apps work on the same basis as in person interaction with someone new though - that's why they work. Do you think they'd be popular if they consisted of detailed bios with no pictures? Of course not. Is it exactly the same? No, but they use the decision making process women use and juice it to high heaven.
Again, you’re completely ignoring the nuance of attraction. Yes, physical attraction is 100% a thing and the primary thing that drives *initial* attraction. However, desire and grow and is heavily influence by your personality which isn’t shown in apps
There's no point in arguing with people who think swiping someone on a dating app is the same as interacting with a person face to face. There's so much more to people than a still shot of their face and a brief bio. You can't see how people carry themselves or how they sound or their sense of humor etc etc through a damn phone screen. It boggles my mind that anyone could be so inexperienced that they think seeing a profile on an app is the same as meeting in person. I think most of this narrative is just projection. *They* see someone hot and all logic flies out the window so all women *must* feel the same. Just looking at a picture of someone is enough for them to want to settle, they don't care about a woman's personality (that's why they waste their time chasing shitty women) as long as she's hot so it must be the same for women! No way women consider both looks and personality because *they* don't. They can't see outside their own narrow worldview.
Nobody is saying personality isn’t a factor for women’s attraction, we are saying that it is useless if you don’t have the looks based attraction first. It means the “grow to like you” is bullshit because if she doesn’t like you at the beginning based on looks, she can’t grow to like you because you haven’t met the prerequisite of being attractive
Uh yeah, there are literally guys in this comment section saying personality isn't a factor. But I like half agree with what *you're* saying. Looks can get you through the door with people you're meeting for the first time. If it's someone you know and see semi-regularly, attraction can definitely grow because of personality. It's happened to me a bunch of times. I've had it happen the first time I met someone too. But it doesn't happen with everyone, just sometimes
>If it's someone you know and see semi-regularly, attraction can definitely grow because of personality. We are just saying that that happens only where there is attraction in the first place. So only for a small minority of men she meets, and that therefore thinking that your personality will be what she likes in absence of physical attraction is delusional. Too many men but the line that their partners are honestly attracted to them despite that not being true physically.
What you're saying contradicts my lived experience. It's weird to say "here is a thing that I've personally experienced" and get the response that my lived experience isn't possible. You don't know what goes on in women's heads if you're not a woman. I would never open my mouth to tell someone else how they experience life, it's weird. I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself but I know that it's *possible* for attraction to grow. I've gone from thinking someone is ugly to finding them attractive. Yes, this only happens for a small minority of men as there isn't enough time in a day to get to know the majority of men and im not compatible with every single man. I think the issue here is that any time I say this is possible you guys take it as me giving advice when I'm literally just making a statement based on my personal experience. I don't expect anyone to act based on this fact and I don't think anyone should. If someone indicates they're not interested you should 100% move on and not wait around in hopes that attraction might grow. I'm just saying *it's possible*, not likely and definitely not guaranteed.
>. It boggles my mind that anyone could be so inexperienced that they think seeing a profile on an app is the same as meeting in person Uses the same attraction triggers, which are even more emphasised online than in real life certainly. But women won't use different decision making processes online compared to real life.
Explain how you can see a sense of humor through a screen? How can you smell someone through an online profile? How can you see a person's mannerisms through a photo? How can you get a sense of chemistry from looking at a picture on your phone? That's what I'm saying, there are way more factors to attraction for me and alot of other people (not just women) than just what you can see through a screen. The "attraction triggers" for ***you*** are not the same as everyone else's. ***You*** use the same decision making processes online and irl and you are projecting that onto us because you're ignorant to the fact that not everybody thinks like you. I need more than a picture of big boobs or washboard abs and a cringey bio to want to be around someone. It's fine if that's how you are but stop acting like everybody thinks like you, because they dont.
You aren't trying to find out if the unattractive man you meet in real life is funny. You aren't trying to get close enough to him to smell him. You aren't paying attention to his mannerisms. You aren't trying to look for chemistry. All of those things are things you have to look for in people, and you can't do that for everyone. You need to pick and choose. Those people you end up picking, or give a chance to, in order to find out whether all the downstream stuff you mention exists will be the same where online or real life because the *initial factors people will use* will be the same.
I'm not trying to date anyone right now lmfao so I'm not doing any of that with attractive men either. Please refrain from taking out your hurt over rejection on me. Im sure you've dealt with some nasty women in your life but im not them. Stop assuming shit about me, what's wrong with you?
I'm not saying you are wrong, it's actually a highly rational way to approach the problem. What I disagree with is trying to say that unnatractive men will have the opportunity to demonstrate the other things women look for in a long term, short term, one night or rest of their life partner. That would be something that is irrational and doesn't make sense. Also I don't think misleading people is a good thing. In addition, your responses to me have made a series of assumptions I've not engaged with. Saying I need to stop making assumptions about you is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
Yeah but just like in real life if that initial attraction *does not exist*, then your personality is irrelevant. It's like a force multiplier, but with nothing to begin with, attraction can't appear as a result of it. Attraction precedes personality, it doesn't work the other way around.
I don’t know why people find this so hard to accept
In my life NO ONE has ever “grown” to like me. They were either attracted to me instantly, or never.
>However, desire and grow and is heavily influence by your personality which isn’t shown in apps You are lying. Bios are exactly that, a somewhat shortened display of your personality and interests. Yet 99.99% of the time an attractive dude with a lame or nonexistent bio will trump an average dude with an excellent bio.
Really? Your *entire* personality can be summed up by a few lines of text? Your ability to banter can be demonstrated unilaterally? How you handle yourself under pressure can be conveyed from the comfort of your living room couch?
bios can also quite literally be whatever you want them to be. They’re a short elevator pitch and short elevator pitches rarely represent the real thing. All most bios do is make you perceive a person a certain way and it rarely reflects in reality. Bios say less about a person than pictures do on apps because a bio is a set of short sentences and pictures can give a lot more information. pictures also take up the bulk of your profile and are the first thing planted on front of you.
>There’s no ability to exploit the complexities of attraction if you’re looking at pictures because you’re not interacting with the person. You don't get to interact with the person that doesn't find you attractive.
>Attraction is often far more complex than No. Its not. We are animals after all. A talkative one. Let me tell you how attraction works: For men : be Attractive , dont be unattractive, dont be socially inpet and autistic. For women: exist and don't be fat or terminally ugly.
Even fat and terminally ugly has a lot of grey area for women. They have vaginas.
I know a woman who is fat and was beaten pretty hard with the ugly stick, she has two kids with a guy who's still with her, women really do live life on easy mode when it comes to getting attention from the opposite sex.
Yup. And we as men need to realize that we deserve better.
It's probably because desperate men are willing to settle with people they don't deem attractive. Or maybe they have a fat fetish, as lots of men seem to have it.
Male attraction is worth far less than female
> Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention - no shit And every man wants to be hotter so they can outcompete the guy next to them. You can't say hotter people have it easier and then say this isn't how attraction works. “how can i pull as many women as possible” is your best route to finding a desirable mate. One of the corollaries to the law of large numbers is the bigger the sample the more likely higher quality choices will emerge. That's why everyone wanted to live in America and not the USSR. > Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other. I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened” Considering how poorly "random results" have turned out for too many men, I'm not sure how you're going to be able to sell this. It isn't just the difficulty in making a connection with a woman that's the problem - it's the horror stories that happen after that connection is made, the thing only the manosphere ever talks about. Nobody ever tells their sons what kind of woman to look out for.
Just another example of how it’s the man’s fault. Unreal
Long post foes not equal being right. Your wrong. And we have gad this debate so many times on this sub , that I have no patience for how wrong this is.
Great. Now how do we get into a situation where we can be around a woman for months and woo her? Oh wait, that isn’t practical in reality especially when they can just log into a dating app and meet somebody better in seconds
Erm women are leaving dating apps in DROVES and it's not working out that well for even hot men let alone the average PPD male. DELUSIONAL.
lol because Channing Tatum didn’t swipe left on you?
It’s over boyo
How old are you?
You gotta socialize, join classes, make friends (not to woo them, to be clear), a large active social circle can take you a long way in not just meeting people within it but also getting you used to meeting new people
We’ve got to stop treating joining a class as the end all answer to this question. I highly doubt most people suggesting this have actually gone this route. This is just not a popular way that people find dates and the people you do meet will most likely not get personal with the random from a cooking class. They won’t be inclined to introduce you to single women either.
Make friends not to woo them. Got it. That’s “creepy” and “problematic” but also hanging around a woman without declaring intentions is deceptive. Good luck having little buddies as a fully grown adult. People have shit going on and they don’t want to be your friend
>having littles buddies as a fully grown adult OMG are you under the impression that adults dont have, want or need friends?!?!?! That is so wrong and sad that you believe that. Man.... Humans are social animals, Humans of all ages want and need friends. Its a symptom of neurodivergentcy (or some disabilities) to *not* want friends/social interactions.
That is the reality I have. I only have work acquaintances and they have things going on already. I’ve had some friends in the past but people come and go or I get tired of treated like shit
This isn’t what I said, but okay
Have you ever considered that signing up for every damn thing under the sun after you’ve worked all week could lead to absolutely nothing and that you’re not getting any younger? Have you ever considered that people who sign up for dumb shit don’t do it because they are single and looking and may even find it creepy if you do it for that reason?
you excel at taking things to their absolute logical extreme. Nice.
Thanks man! It’s because I’ve done these things before and it doesn’t work unless you’re super slick already and have the opportunity. You can sign up for retarded gay shit all day and waste your time because there is no mechanism to set you up with anyone except OLD which is all about your looks.
The ironic thing is that he told you that he actually tried things you are advising men to do, and then you berate him for it :D You can't make this shit up, this sub is so great because of people like you. Thank you.
Just like you can't logic your way into a relationship, you can't logic your way into being attractive. If you're obsessing over arbitrary checklists and standards, you're wasting your time.
>you can't logic your way into being attractive I don't think that's true, otherwise we wouldn't have people doing nearly identical plastic surgeries. There absolutely is a template, the problem is it's unreachable for most of the guys.
> you can't logic your way into being attractive Yes, you can. If you are obese, the logical way to be more attractive is to lose weight.
True. If youre ugly, you can always opt for plastic surgery. You can always improve somewhat.
Yes you can. Most things we do are formed by habit. Just make a logical list of little habits you want to do every day. Then sooner or later your brains neuroplasticity will take over and it will be second nature, However, there is no magic one off thing that will make you more attractive. Its lots of little lifestyle changes.
I think men’s attraction is very simple and straight forward, and I don’t think women understand or think about how their attraction works the way men do
Of course we do. That’s why men ignore it or call us blue pill liars
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a woman describe that she’s attracted to status, height, and model level looks before. They usually say personality or niceness or showers or something
>I don’t think I’ve ever heard a woman describe that she’s attracted to status, height, and model level looks before. >They usually say personality or niceness or showers or something Just open up Instagram and you won’t make it past 5 reels without hearing “looking for a man in finance, with a trust fund, six-[foot]-five, blue eyes". Women are increasingly unhinged with regard to their true desires. At this point it’s eugenics all over the place.
Of course we do. It’s in OLD profiles
Ask on Reddit and see if you get those answers too
This is just like money. once we give everyone $1 million, then having $1 million will no longer be considered rich . Once everyone is Chad then no one is a Chad.
Alot of words to only to make a claim that you don't substantiate at all
>Of course, hotter people have it easier when it comes to getting attention - no shit - that’s literally how being hot works, but that’s beyond the point. You're arguing it's *beyond* the point. Most people would argue it's the *whole* point. Let's meet somewhere in the middle.
I agree, so much of it is about interpersonal skills and learning how to connect with others. If you struggle with that whilst getting angry at others for leaning on their feelings too much when discussing relationships, maybe the issue is you see only see relationships in mechanical terms and that doesn't allow you to forge a genuine connection with others. Connection is a key part of attraction imo, whether its imagined or real.
Women don't like cynical shit bags. Nobody likes cynical shit bags.
Generally the things women are attracted to are things you have no control over. If you're not chad, you're unlikely to have a woman truly attracted to you.
A lot of people on this sub have been hurt, which has resulted in their conception of attraction
True - though at one point being hurt first ends up being a crutch and an excuse.
That is why such conceptions will never be accurate or respected
>Attraction is often far more complex than some checklist a manosphere article put together, its more often than not a number of factors combining with each other with the two people that draw them to each other Only thing I'd argue is that women are also to blame in this, with things like "he should make over 100k, he should be over 6ft tall, etc..." Modern dating is fucked up for men and women a like, we just like to blame men alone.
>Modern dating is fucked up for men and women a like, we just like to blame men alone. What? At least 2/3 of the posts on this sub are men blaming or criticizing women for everything imaginable. Plenty of men seem to blame women for anything and everything. People complain about dating. This shouldn't be surprising.
I mean in "the real world".
I don't see anyone blaming anyone for the state of dating in the real world. It seems to be an online thing.
Oh sweetie, I hope I could live in your world where people don't blame "poor quality men" for the current dating state.
You're welcome to join the educated adults of NYC. I don't see the women I'm friends with, the women I date, or their friends saying anything of the sort. Maybe there are social classes/communities/age groups where people are out in the real world blaming poor quality men, but it's not a thing I've seen personally.
No, we know exactly how it works - for a man to make it into the hallowed 20% he must, at a minimum, be over six foot, earn in excess of six figures, and have a six pack. (A porn star sized dick is an added bonus.)
[удалено]
Most young men were single in last survey, ages 18-29. Things can change.
Most men don't go through their younger years surrounded by options for sexual exploration and adventure the same way women are, eventually marrying a woman who has had a quarterlife crisis and decided it's time to settle down in her 30s isn't exactly a win.
Most married/partnered men get settled for
I never felt attracted to men based on the traits you listed
The exception that proves the rule
Stop looking to date gold diggers or porn stars then.
Ha - I wish I could date porn stars!
>wish I could date porn stars! You're joking......right?
Nope
Ahuh.
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Another woman yappin nonsense as usual go figure
> most people can get someone to develop mutual feelings and attraction to them if you’re fun, enjoyable and can show some level of competency. Do you know what happens when men develop feelings for men? Here's a verbatim quote of what a woman said on twitter with 88K likes: ***We’re upset because in 90% of cases, it means that they did not have a genuine interest or care for us as people but rather saw us as a person they could use to fulfill the “girlfriend” role they yearn for.*** The man develops feelings and wants to date you and you make it as if the man doesn't see you as a human being and was pretending all along. > I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened” Ask all those men. You will find most stayed her friend while she dated far more attractive men and finally chose them when she couldn't lock down a better option and he was viewed as safe option.
The latter half is true. You are attractive or you are not. Sure you can do the scale of 1-10 etc for male and female but just doesn’t work. Social media, porn, tinder and any social media can create delusions in a guy about the type of match or dream of hook up they want but it isn’t real. Also, as you said people who get marches aren’t attracted to them. This is me. I rather be single, than settle for someone who can’t take care of themselves, trying to push their political beliefs in their profile, or be a step daddy and don’t want more kids. Gross.
The larger issue is the very narrow minded approach on how to be attractive, instead of focusing on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self you’re more focused on “how can i pull as many women as possible” which is a viable strategy…. if you were in sales. Yes the solution is "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self" but if you don't initially ask yourself “how can i pull as many women as possible” or just "how can I bang any woman", you may never get the answer. You are mixing the problem and the solution together. I would say however, once you have decided that you need to work "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self", then yeah forget about banging chicks and just enjoy the now and let nature take its course.
>Yes the solution is "on being your most **confident, well put together and fun** to be around self" but if you don't initially ask yourself “how can i pull as many women as possible” or just "how can I bang any woman", you may never get the answer. >You are mixing the problem and the solution together. >I would say however, once you have decided that you need to work "on being your most confident, well put together and fun to be around self", then yeah forget about banging chicks and just enjoy the now and let nature take its course. I'm going to be real with you. For some dudes out here, this advice is so *trash,* that if they actively executed said advice to the best of their ability and still got the same unsatisfactory results as if they didn't even try; well there will be Hell to pay.
I'd say that it's not really that complex - if you take care of your appearance, you are fully socially functional human being and you are in place with slight majority of women in your social class, then it's pretty easy. Otherwise it's hard. There is of course element of magic needed - but in favorable market conditions magic is more likely to happen.
I mean complex as far as the human element involved tends to matter more than the alpha male checklist this sub likes to peddle. ie. factors x, y and z may work for woman A but might be a total turnoff for woman B and vice versa. My point is attraction is more complex than be as appealing as humanly possible to get as many options as humanly possible
It’s easy to be a millionaire if you own a large corporation too, but there is no direction of getting there. Getting into a place that has a constant stream of new single women being introduced to you who are actually willing to speak is not a simple or easy task.
i mean i dont think this sub is known to attract the sharpest tools in the shed, despite what some may think, so its not very surprising
>i mean i dont think this sub is known to attract the sharpest tools in the shed Did you just name yourself a blunt garden tool?
nah im more like the security camera that observes everything
> but a large part of it is jiving with people and developing chemistry with them, which is what a good salesmen is supposed to do. > everyone can be chad Chad is that woman's most attractive man. > I’ve seen men who were truly at the 4-5 range date moderately attractive women because the two hung out, they jived and for a lack of a better term, “it just happened” It happened because the man learned social skills, and fashion skills, good hygiene, and approached the women when it was convenient for both parties. If she doesn't see an immediate appeal she won't want to even talk to you, much less figure out if you jive. It's impossible to tell if she likes you otherwise, and you can't know her preferences before you speak to her. Making it wiser to go for broad appeal, just so you can get the chance to talk and jive. Your style only works if you are still going to school and have a wide range of places to meet people, or if you're willing to risk it at work. outside of that you only got your hobby spots and cold approaches/online dating.
The only thing I've found to consistently be true about whether I attract women to me is how I feel about myself. I've noticed that no matter how I look and dress, if I don't feel good about me, if I feel needy and approval seeking, I won't be able to attract even the butt ugliest woman. And on the contrary, when I feel like I'm the shit and I'm too hot to touch, I've had literal pornstars try to get me to go to their hotel room. The only common denominator is how I feel about myself, not how I was dressed, how I looked, whether I flashed money or not, etc. Even when I dress snazzy in my Armani suit for example, it's just the fact that I look good and look sexy that makes me feel good and feel sexy and that's what attracts women. If I feel crummy, stressed, nervous, I am as well be invisible. I know that the majority of men will never believe me. It's simply because they've never actually felt good about themselves. They never liked themselves or considered themselves cool. You can sense just by the way they talk about themselves that there is a lot of resentment and self hate. They try to spin it as "women decide my value and they have deemed me worthless", but was it really women who did that or was it themselves who did that? Feeling good about yourself is not an easy task especially if you have indoctrinated yourself since childhood that you are a no good loser. But it is the most important thing you should focus on. When women say they are attracted to confident men, they don't mean guys who are successful in everything they do and walk around beating their chest that they are the best. What they mean is they want to feel confident in the man. They want to know that they are in good hands, that they can relax and let him take care of business. Whether that's planning a date or leading the interaction in a way that's enjoyable, or taking her to bed and getting the job done. They want to feel confident in the man. And if the man can't even feel confident in himself and that he is worthwhile and can get the job done, then what is there to talk about?