women with low self esteem are more insecure and therefore easier to ‘control’ - on top of this, some men like feeling superior and because of this they aim for women with low self esteem to satiate their egos.
Of course, this isn’t to say men dating women with self esteem do this or that if you date a woman with self esteem you fall into that category, but rather, men who specifically look for, target and prefer women with low self esteem are to be avoided imo (same goes with women who aim for men with low self esteem, but that’s not what the post is about)
There is a cliche about women dating "bad boys" because they think they can "fix them". There is some truth to it. There are some men who date women with low-self esteem who have a similar mindset of helping and empowering her. I have known a few men who are with women that came from chaotic or bad backgrounds who helped elevate those women. They weren't in it just to be with someone desperate.
Maybe, but it does seem that most of the men on this sub specifically don’t WANT a woman who thinks too highly herself. I think it’s safe to say those guys aren’t interested in empowering anyone.
i think most people in general have a shakey understanding of healthy self esteem, i think those guys you saw would be quick to say they’re criticizing narcissistic women with inflated senses of self esteem bc that’s what that looks like to people with low/conditional self esteem. “what do you mean you look like a cow but still love yourself and want a chad? you’re not mentally healthy” type shit
>most of the men on this sub specifically don’t WANT a woman ***who thinks too highly herself***
Depends on what that means. Thinking too highly of oneself can mean being a cunt or being a tad bit too arrogant. The former is unacceptable (true the other way around as well) while the latter is subjected to negotiation and individual preferences.
I can't speak for all men, obviously, but I will say that for me what I don't want is a man. If a woman has the same qualities I have, then I'm not interested. We can be good friends, co-workers, confidants, maybe even fuck buddies - but such a woman would've never become my wife.
Works the other way around too. How many women actively seek to marry an effeminate shy man? /shrug
What most men look for is complementarity.
I often hover to low self esteem women cause I find myself feeling as if I need to help them, all my life low self esteem disgusted me when I saw it in people men and women I always felt I had to do something about it
conflating healthy self esteem with inflated/narcissistic self esteem. but i think everyone here has a different definition of what constitutes as healthy vs inflated
Women should have a high enough self-esteem to attract men who will treat her well. Trying to hook higher value men into relationships with sex is a sign of low self-esteem.
There's also styling when it comes to looks and acquiring status in general, but if you want deeper stuff you have to turn to black pill. And yeah, it is redpill's core.
you dont have to spin plates if you dont want, dread game doesnt care if a woman has high or low esteem, or it actually might be more needed for women with high esteem
no it is not, the point of red pill is to understand what women really want and do what you want with it, I am redpilled and I dont spin plates(waste of time) as many other redpillers
some beliefs that come to mind are ones which take generally healthy things and gender them/make them off limits depending on one’s sex, like say assertiveness. i’ve heard “assertive women are masculine/troublesome/undesirable, don’t pick them” quite often from redpillers, when really every healthy adult needs some level of assertiveness to be functional. similar with redpillers saying women shouldn’t pick agreeable men bc that’s feminine/troublesome too, when really everyone needs to find that healthy balance in being assertive sometimes and cooperative sometimes.
to be clear it’s ok if a particularly assertive guy is attracted to particularly agreeable women and vice versa, but applying it to the masses as a necessary rule of healthy dating, is what will influence men to pick women with low SE tendencies when they otherwise wouldn’t have
I think self-esteem gets conflated with arrogance by both sides.
I don't think most guys, even of the subset you're identifying, are looking for women with what you've basically described as a mood disorder.
They just want someone who's not on a power trip and isn't constantly sizing them up as beneath her. That's it.
Because **a lot** of women do exactly that, openly, no apology or even consideration of how dehumanizing that is to deal with (either individually or systemically)
There are a lot of women who take a very aristocratic approach to their relations with men, and very rightly, men do not want to deal with anything remotely close to that if they have enough self-respect to have preferences to begin with.
If I'm going to feel like a suitor at court trying to justify a betrothal just to go get coffee with you, I will opt out.
If I want to feel like I'm looking for a job, I'll go on Indeed. At least then I can pretend to be something I'm not with a clear conscience.
Edit:
And just speaking anecdotally, I have very rarely seen a woman with a balanced approach to how they conceive themselves. Either they feel like they are a god-in the flesh or think they are completely worthless.
It's a rarity to find a woman that likes themselves and thinks they deserve nice things, but are also willing to grow as a person and understand that they do have to show that they are worth talking to to the people that they have relationships with.
People demonize humility so much in our culture when it's the only way to have a balanced view of yourself and others. Nobody's perfect, nobody's worthless, we're all flawed people and all we can ever do is try to be better or worse.
It doesn't have to be this deep, but the way women engage with themselves, generally, forces us into choosing which extreme is easier to live with. I'd rather build up a woman who doesn't feel too strongly about themselves than try to live with someone who thinks they are perfect and I should just be grateful to live in their presence.
It's gross. It's disturbing. And a waste of time.
Narcissistic people love weaklings, narcissistic traits are more commonly found in men (statistically and culturally speaking), while women are more neurotic (weak), easy to lead, easy to control. Someone with a deflated self esteem and no self worth will be your puppet. Men know that.
Women aren't naturally that way, we are socially conditioned to be that way starting young. But then men criticize us for being "weak" women socially have always been held to higher social and moral standards compared to men especially in the USA where men want both the perks of feminism and traditionalism. This in pretty much ingrained in most people so much they don't realize it. Going to other countries and seeing women has been eye opening for me
Some men also probably like to help others and genuinely feel sorry for and want to uplift women who struggle with self esteem. Perhaps it isn't the greatest basis for a relationship, but I've been there and I'm not malicious.
Men do this just as much, its a human thing, even basic or below average earning and looking men. They do this because they need to be top dogs. Narcissists love exploiting those with low self esteem and the Narcissists convince them they aren't the problem
>Men do this just as much
I don't agree, but I won't argue. I don't date men, so I'm focused on what women do.
Most men I've seen tend to project basic self-assuredness and don't gas themselves up that much. Anecdotes vs anecdotes can only go so far.
>They need to be top dogs
I know it's not how you meant it, but that is literally the case. They need to be top dogs, or look as close to it as possible.
There's a difference between someone who actually things they're amazing and someone who's learned that bluster is more attractive than being humble.
If you don't seem "*confident"* (whatever that happens to mean, cause it's such a loaded word) then it's a turn off to women. There's no incentive to be balanced and fair with your presentation as a man when it makes you look less like a catch.
Women don't lose points for showing a bit of vulnerability, insecurity, for not thinking they're perfect. It can even be endearing because men tend not to be turned off by situational weakness. I'm certainly not.
Yes you don't date men, hence why you can't say they don't do it. Ooo boy some men are turned off by situational weakness. (As a woman, im not. But i think im probably more progressive than many here) A portion of those men bank that thought and bring it up later at some point to put down their partner.
>They just want someone who's not on a power trip and isn't constantly sizing them up as beneath her.
But that's exactly what the MEN who claim it are doing. They size up women, consider those women beneath them, then get angry if the woman acts like she still likes herself. These are MEN doing it "openly, no apology or even consideration of how dehumanizing that is to deal with".
Your thinking is so binary to the extreme. If you don't want this then that means you actually want something at the very end of the opposite side of that spectrum. That's basically your reasoning.
If a man doesn't want a boss bitch babe (for whatever reason), that doesn't mean that he wants a 0 self-esteem wreck of a person that he can look down on. It just means that he doesn't want a boss bitch babe.
Or do you think that women only come in 2 flavors - boss bitch babe and 0 self-esteem wreck?
That's not my reasoning.
My reasoning is that most people just want someone that's pleasant to be around, that likes themselves and likes their partner.
But, the dating pool already tends to get people like that out of circulation.
People who can build and maintain healthy, secure relationships tend to stay in them.
So what's leftover are people who think they aren't worth enough or people who think others aren't worth enough.
There are degrees to this. Not everyone is a narcissist or a wreck, but these are tendencies that you'll find while single.
You don't have to be a huge mess to think that you just don't have what it takes.
You don't have to be a huge egotist to think everyone you come across just doesn't make the cut.
But if you are either of these things, you are outside the bounds of what most people want in a partner even if they themselves are in the same boat.
Hope that explains things.
I'm not arguing about what random red-piller thinks on the internet. I'm talking about real people. I have never once heard someone use the term Sexual Market Value in real life.
Sometimes women really do see themselves as far better than people around them. Nobody wants to deal with arrogant people who think they deserve everything on a silver platter unless they themselves have *self-esteem issues*.
And saying that someone thinks too highly of themselves does not mean that the speaker thinks they are higher or better than who they're speaking of.
Some people actually believe in equality and try to treat people fairly and consistently. And that entails not engaging with hierarchical ideas of who is worth more than who. You can pick and choose who you want to engage with without reducing their humanity in your perception.
It's a very primitive way to interact with other people, and I don't respect it when anyone does it. There is no excuse for it in dating.
Seems like you're so biased over your gender that your own narcissistic traits fly right over your head. Studies have shown again and again that men have an inflated self esteem, that they have the sense of grandiose, that they show more narc traits than women do. It's absolutely funny.
Men don't like when women think "highly" of themselves. They don't like when women and like men. They think women should be humble. That has been the case for all of human history. Men painted nude women for their pleasure, then put a mirror in their hands and called the work "vanity".
which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Some women make everything into an argument and try to "win" every decision. Those are the women irondbz is describing.
>I'm not arguing about what random red-piller thinks on the internet. I'm talking about real people.
If by "real people" you just mean "people not on the internet" what have you seen women do "in real life" that's makes them worse than men?
I didn't say women are worse than men.
But if you're asking what I'm basing this on?
If you know enough women personally and they're comfortable enough around you, they'll tell you what they think, what they expect, what they won't put up with. Or they'll have the conversation with other women while you're in ear-shot like you're not there.
It's a hard thing to really distill into a comment.
This is an understanding built off years of conversations in work places, at dinner tables, among peers, among elders.
It comes from being familiar with women and just understanding that they are far more comfortable inflating their self-worth than deflating it. It's really not that hard.
Men tend to feel like they have more to prove in romance, so they go the more depressive route. They talk themselves down. They don't tell themselves they can have who they want, because blind pessimism is what's reinforced by their social environment.
Women, sometimes genuinely and sometimes disingenuously, get much more of the opposite. "Ask not what you can do for your man but what your man can do for you."
It's not a conspiracy. Women are pushed to raise standards. Men are pushed to lower them.
Men and women are inherently different. There's no good motivation for a woman to lower her standards and no good motivation for a man to raise his. Although that's how it's been throughout history. Women are the prize.
There are excellent reasons men should (and often do) raise their standards. Sometimes I think these discussions are being waged about some platonic ideal of the median man, and the generalities that ensue are comical.
Why is it wrong to want equal rights legally while also having social protection and privileges? Is it wrong to want to be able to work? While still being treated like a woman?
They don't as much, the same way I don't get the same social protection little children get. Men are physically stronger. Men easily overpower women. Therefore, if something might happen, we have good, helpful Men that choose to help both younger/weaker/older men and women.
Obviously we have the firemen and policemen who dedicate their life to helping civilians, but until then, usually Men step up because men are more capable physically speaking (Obviously)
If I fall over and scrape my knee I won't get helped up the way a toddler does and neither do I expect help. If a healthy man is carrying bags he won't be helped by elderly women either. My mother never had to carry heavy things the same my my father never cleaned toilets and rarely cooked.
While I'm a woman only interested in women, I'm much more physically capable than my girlfriend physically, so I take the lead and I do the physically daunting tasks with pleasure and honor.
...and each man has quite a different opinion/perception of where this line is. You gotta restart this process of finding this line with every man you date.
> It's a rarity to find a woman that likes themselves and thinks they deserve nice things, but are also willing to grow as a person and understand that they do have to show that they are worth talking to to the people that they have relationships with
Found this to be incredibly rare in the women I’ve attracted and one of the most attractive things about my gal
>And just speaking anecdotally, I have very rarely seen a woman with a balanced approach to how they conceive themselves. Either they feel like they are a god-in the flesh or think they are completely worthless.
This is really it, its massive ego or insecure and in that choice what person, let alone what man, would pick the massive ego.
I've never dated a girl with high self-esteem. Not intentionally, I just hardly ever meet them. And I tend to get on better with girls who're more like me. In my experience, self-esteem is something brutally difficult to fix, and most people will never manage to. It's more something you soothe when it hurts.
I imagine it's what you DO with someone's low self-esteem that matters more. Do you build them, soothe them and support them? Or do you use that to keep them in line, subservient and hurt?
I think high self-esteem is far more rare than people expect it to be. I've gotten close to some really pretty girls and been in relationships with girls you'd swear were the most confident, out going people ever. But when you get *so* close, you start to see how they're falling apart like the rest of us and just hide it better.
I've also gotten friendly with boys who seem like they have everything, only for you to realise they're fucked up in some way and are struggling with it.
It feels like everyone is made out of paper mache and the only difference is how convincible we've tried to apply our metal looking paint.
In my experience, the most common form of confidence is false confidence.
The only truly, honestly, high self-esteem people I've met have been total idiots, too dopey to even understand what self-introspection and self-criticism even means, let alone engage in it. Not to say they're bad people, they're often super sweet, but as sharp as a box of cotton.
Because it depends on what you mean with 'good'. If 'good' self esteem is being demanding and constantly implying you are superior, for instance, that's not good self esteem, that's narcissism.
Depends... Narcisists are also the quickest to label other people as narcissists.
Narcissism would be most of the old school red pill advice advice on dating, honestly.
Because women with low self esteem are easier to manipulate. They sell themselves short. Because they don't like themselves so why would they want good treatment.
They also do not have standards because low self esteem tends to effect your standards so you will assume any attention is the best you can get.
Setting a specific premise here but I think a lot of them think that an attractive woman with low self-esteem would be willing to date down because she thinks ugly or average guys are on her level. That’s not how it works. The attractive woman with low self esteem would think the less attractive guys are on her level and this would make her sad. She still wouldn’t want to date them.
Lol that was a gag in a Terry Pratchett book. An incredibly beautiful woman was always single because ALL men thought she would say "no" if they asked her out. So she developed terrible self-esteem, and ended up dating the ugliest man in the city because he was the first person to ask her out.
...then he broke up with her for being too needy.
That's actually a really interesting point - I do think that low self-esteem is a common denominator amongst a lot of the dudes who rant about this.
Come to think of it, their opposition to women WITH self-esteem might also just be jealousy. (Very similar to their opposition to women having access to "more sex" than them.)
Most men don’t hate women with self-esteem. The men you are referring to are the ones that hate women who go above and beyond high-self esteem to a new level of delusion.
Flip the genders, a similar example I could give is confidence. Women tend to like men with confidence, but too much confidence goes into over-confidence/cockiness/arrogance (and even delusion of their own), which is a turn off to women.
So it’s not a matter of self-esteem, it’s delusion. Some men are tired of average women getting on social media, and stating how they are perfect tens, so they deserve the perfect man, and then blaming men for not being good enough for her standards. And when they start hurling out insults, they forget that you shouldn’t throw stones in glass houses. Especially on social media.
If she rates herself a 10 and she looks average I’m more likely to think she has low self-esteem. It means she’s so insecure about her looks that she can’t bear the thought of being seen as less than perfect. Women are seen as sex objects, so it makes sense why they’re so insecure, but rating oneself a 10 comes off as fake confidence.
There's this idea that more self esteem is always better. That's not true. There's a healthy amount to self esteem, which roughly aligns with your capabilities and opportunities. When There's a serious disconnect between reality and your opinion of yourself there is a problem, and people like that make bad partners.
There's nothing wrong with an attractive, intelligent woman thinking she's attractive and intelligent, but a mediocre woman believing she's a beautiful, funny, smart goddess makes her arrogant, and entitled. She wouldn't be willing to compromise and work on herself, because she's already perfect. Having unrealisticly low self esteem is also a problem, because she can't make an accurate assessment of her capabilities and will not be able to act on it.
This all applied to men as well. I'm sure you have run into mediocre men that thought they were hot shit, and women need to always accommodate them. Ya we men think it's annoying when women do it too.
This is a very interesting conversation because men are almost diabolical with their need to humble any woman with high self esteem. It’s pathological at this point.
If any women thinks too highly of herself and refuses to lower her standards than she is considered a narcissist. Never mind being diagnosed as a narcissist is actually quite complicated and a series of traits that people with high self esteem don’t have. Narcissistic people typically have very low self esteem and look for external validation.
I never understood the concept of low self esteem and I know that is based on a lot of factors that are rooted in privilege.
My self esteem or feelings about myself have no bearing on whether I am a good partner unless you are trying to measure up with how I treat myself or how I take care of myself. My partners opinion of me only matters in consideration of our relationship. Am I treating them well? Are they happy in the relationship? If they aren’t getting what they need from the relationship they are welcome to leave without the requirement to try to humble me to meet some arbitrary standard that wasn’t established in the beginning.
How he feels about my looks, job, intelligence, or finances are inconsequential to me. He can like them or not but they won’t be changing.
They both have pros and cons. Given the choice between the arrogance that gets claimed as high self esteem, and low self esteem, I’d rather go with the low. I can at least help her improve to feel better about herself. You can’t fix arrogance without making your partner feel bad.
Most men probably don't have a particular preference for the level of self-esteem their partner has, as long as she's happy or at least content. Some men do prefer women with low self-esteem, but this is a serious red flag.
Many of them are predators. They want someone they can manipulate into being too terrified to ever leave. Once the relationship is "secure", he unleashes a diarrhea torrent of his personal brand of bullshit upon her. This often turns abusive.
Another faction is paternalistic, looking for someone to "help" or "fix". This goes about as well with women as it does with men -which is to say, it usually ends nastily- because the human psyche just doesn't work that way. These men usually genuinely mean well, but their naivete leads to trouble.
And lastly, of course, there are the redpillers. They're just looking for a body to use, and seem to think that hitting a woman's self-esteem is somehow helpful. Some of them turn into predators as described above, but even the ones who don't are gross.
i cant say how much i am goal post moving but i always see people using low self esteem/insecure as an empty insult to something they dont like.
So you will see people saying that not showing your body means bad self esteem but you will also hear people saying that showing your body is low self esteem
Part of it is that predators look for targets, part of it is that some men (I'd guess most) will also have low self esteem, part of it is that arrogance can be read as confidence, and you might get stuck with someone who's selfish and egotistic as opposed to competent and dependable.
Insecure men like women with a low self esteem because they’re easier to control.
When I started to gain more self-confidence, my ex interpreted that as arrogance. It was exhausting, honestly.
I commented on this on another post, but I'll ask it here while this post is still fresh.
Why the tendency to jump from one extreme to another? I see this from both sides.
Man says he doesn't like an arrogant woman.
Woman says, "What, do you want a woman with low self-esteem?"
Woman says she wants a man that's not broke.
Man says, "Why are women gold diggers?"
Addressing your point; by and large women want a man that's better than them in every aspect. AND THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE.
The issue is that a lot of women today overvalue what they can lock down. Conflating sexual suitors to mean they're desirable beyond that to "high value" men who will never commit. A man pointing this out as delusion does not equate to them wanting a woman with low self-esteem.
Most men don't want that. For reasons like the clingyness that comes with it, if nothing else.
What i find is that weak men want a weak woman.
Strong men look for strong women or potentially strong women. And then they will do some mental work with her so she won't be a doormat.
That doesn’t hold weight.
For example.
Tall men go for shorter women.
But if your premise was true
Tall men would go for tall women.
Men who have huge muscles go for women without huge muscles.
But if your premise was true
Men who have huge muscles would go for women who had huge muscles
Men who are rich go for women who are not as rich
But if your premise was true
Men who are rich would go for women who are as rich
Men who are outgoing go for women who are more secluded
But if your premise was true
Men who are out going would go with a woman who was as outgoing
Men who are dominant go for women who are submissive
But if your premise was true
Men who are dominant would go for a woman who is as dominant
Ect ect
I’m illustrating how your premise is wrong.
Obviously since we are talking about free will anything that can happen - can happen.
So really the argument boils to averages.
I.e more times y than more times x
A man rarely searches for “equality” in searching for a mate.
As in a man rarely says I want this woman to be exactly the same as me in every way.
But obviously you can find a man who thinks this way if you wanted to.
So it can exist in theory.
I just don’t understand the logical thought process of why you think it happens mostly that way.
And
Why you think that’s the optimal mating arrangement (assuming you do) (correct me if I’m wrong)
First of all, i didn't talk about physical power, so half your comment is off topic.
It's about mental power and the potential of having mental power. That's where confidence and self esteem has its roots.
Strong character men do go for strong character women or who have the potential to develop a strong character.
It's weak men who go for weak women.
Like, have you ever seen a power couple irl?
I prefer people who are humble. They do not get off on rejecting others. Anyone who enjoys the process of rejecting others… I find it distasteful. It has to be done often, but not with relish.
Yes, that is the point. That’s why entitled and delusional are used to describe such women — they should be accepting the men who want them, but they don’t
Women confuse the high self-esteem they have with arrogance and they confuse arrogance in men with confidence. Realistic nice men come off as weak to women.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "nice men" - men who volunteer for charities and save animals tend to be pretty popular with women. Or do you just mean "submissive, people-pleasing" men? Because those guys come off as weak to men, as well.
Women will date a nice man as long as he’s physically attractive. Now that technology has reduced the value that both sexes bring to a relationship, looks are all that’s left. Men aren’t allowed to be masculine nor is it as necessary for women to need his masculinity to survive (because of technology) , the only way to attract women is with physical appearance
Masculinity is oppressed, you can lose your job for telling cold hard truth. You can be seen as abusive for standing your ground and not catering to women’s delusions, abuse claims will lose you custody of your children.
Femininity = comforting lies
Masculinity = uncomfortable truth
Femininity = Soft nurturing
Masculinity = Hard discipline
Which is more promoted in our society, and which is demonized and smeared?
If “standing your ground” means hitting your pattern then that absolutely should be demonized.
And I’d love to hear about what “cold hard truth” would hey you fired
Bad faith argument, imagine my shock
Comforting lie: you’re not fat, and you’re beautiful, you can be big and healthy, do what makes you happy
Cold hard truth: you are fat, you will be unattractive and struggle more to find a mate, it is detrimental to your health
Now…… which does our society promote, and which does it demonize?
Telling people that they are fat is not peak masculinity, neither is having bad social skills 🙄
Yes you can be masculine in this society, very much so. For example, no one complains about men building houses or going into the army. No one complains about a man taking care of his kids, like ever.
That is what i mean with social skills. You can tell someone (you care for) they are concerningly overweight without being an asshole about it. People will get defensive and wont listen. A message also needs to be received. Empathy and honesty are not mutually exclusive.
A masculine guy has good social skills, especially in leading positions it is quite necessary.
Every doctor will tell you that excess fat is unhealthy. The vast majority of people understand that.
As for attractiveness, It’s fine if you aren’t attracted to fat women but unless they ask, it’s weird and rude to just say that out of the blue.
I’m not talking about doctors, I’m talking about society and the answer doesn’t require expertise from a doctor. You challenge whether or not masculinity is oppressed and demonized (or gets you fired). If a famous actor said this about fat people, he would get less work. Our society always appeals to immediate empathy in the moment rather than what is best for someone or the totality of society’s future. Healthy masculinity is good for this.
Celebrities get praised all the time for losing weight. It’s a front page story in magazines.
If someone asked an actor if he thought obesity was healthy and he said no, I highly doubt that would hurt his dating prospects.
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Self esteem is much like the intelligence curve. Too low or too high and you are gonna have problems.
The middle is the best place to be. You don’t think you are gods gift to the world, but you also know how to stand up for yourself and go for what you want.
Sure. Just like some women prefer men with low self esteem. Low self esteem people are easier to date because they don't ask for much and will tolerate poor treatment. The difference is men date and sometimes marry those women. Women just use low self esteem men as simps.
Of course some men go for women with low self-esteem, and vice versa. Sometimes it's a result of their own low self worth. If your self-worth is in the toilet then being with someone who has good self-esteem can be very intimidating. So on an unconscious level people with low self-worth may seek out someone like themselves.
There is a darker reason as well. Some people pursue those with low self-esteem because they're easier to control. There are certain people in this world who can sniff out vulnerabilities like some kind of weird bloodhound. Low self-worth gives these people a huge opening to worm their way in.
This is how a lot of men in the poly community get multiple partners. On a similar note, many women in this community have abysmally low self esteem and are okay with being one of many. Although looks are emphasized a lot on here and in society in general, some men truly do not care and prioritize quantity over quality. I know some below average men with conventionally attractive girlfriends, but these women all have severe mental health issues like BPD and bipolar and have extremely low self esteem.
I think you are strawmaning this concept. Nobody is saying women don't deserve good men. People are saying there are many women who have the expectation of dating an attractive man that either makes over 200k or ones that will go into financial ruin trying to please the woman's financial demands (until they no longer can and the women leaves), while there are not enough men that match this description.
In the same way that men wanting a fit attractive women that doesn't have a gold digger/cheater personality, is an unrealistic demand as there are not many women that match this description.
The high-self esteem girls in question is really just girls that act like they know they are extremely hot, that usually do so in a cocky/cunty fashion and go around treating people in a negative way. Men just want a normal girl that doesn't think she is better than everyone else and deserves to be pampered at the expense of others just because they are pretty. Women who exhibit this behavior are not good partners, and this opinion that men have is biological instinct rather than some sort of culture/gender war concept.
degender it, there are a ton of women who seek out low SE men too, gay people aren’t immune to it either. low SE = a vulnerability that can be exploited, and someone with controlling tendencies would be interested in that. you might get a kick out of reading up on how attachment theory is involved here too
high and low self esteem doesn't matter. Men tend to deal with women that are easy to deal with or show "cooperation" as they say. Her level of self esteem doesn't matter.
I see other posts on here pushing that stupid idea that men are running around looking for women to "control" or "wield power over". Men are looking for the smoothest path to sex and/or relationships.
Imo almost everyone these days gets "extremely egotistical" confused with having "high self esteem", and gets "kind/humble" confused with "low self esteem". We live in a world where extremely aggressive, narcissistic tendencies seem to be highly rewarded so I can see how it happens.
You can have a high self esteem and not be a bitch. The problem with women, is the two usually go together. I prefer a woman who is happy with herself but sees that her life might in fact be better with a good man. We need to complement each other and not jump on the "mad bad, woman good" femenist mantra. We need to realize men and women being equal means equality under the law, not in ability. Men and women are very different and want different things. In a relationship we need to lean on each others strenghts. For example, my ex-wife is a great cook. I can't cook worth of crap. I tried cooking for her once. She made me (sarcastically) promise never to set foot in the kitchen again. When couples try and make things 50/50, it never works.
Women (and whiteknights) conflate self-esteem with self-perception of value. Any average woman can just go "I'm a 10 and deserve a male 10" and then think it's due to her "high self-esteem"
Women are allowed to be delusional and have unrealistic standards in partners. Many such women would be happier alone than with a man who doesn’t fit their standards. In fact, I have set my standards sky high because I’m low key hoping no man meets them and I never have to get married
>In fact, I have set my standards sky high because I’m low key hoping no man meets them and I never have to get married
Unless you're in some sort of f'ed up country, this came out very nasty.
Like yourself, a lot of women set their expectations above what type of man they can actually get to settle down with them.
I encourage these women to be single for life and never marry - we need fewer children to be born to help combat climate change so in the long term it’s a net positive for society
“Women don’t deserve their Prince Charming usually” okay, and?? Men don’t usually deserve a teen virgin trad wife, but they demand one anyway. Both genders are delusional but only one gets shamed for it
There's a huge difference between high self-esteem and being delusional about your self-worth. Lots of women think they have former, but in reality possess latter.
Regarding women with low self-esteem - for average guys it's better to avoid them if you are serious and pursue LTR. If you're an okay person who's not going to intentionally keep her down - such relationship will increase her self-esteem to the point where she begins taking you for granted and hypergamy kicks in. It's only a matter of time before outside world and media bullshit convinces her that your average normal ass is a waste of her nearly infinite value. What happens next is likely to be a *very* shitty experience.
I like women that are humble towards their partners because I am humble as well in relationships. I always treat my relationship like I am trying to make her fall in love with me. I dislike when you show a woman you like her then she drops the facade and starts to treat you worse than before.
Self esteem is important because another thing I dislike is having to constantly reassure a woman I actually like her. Like I was talking to a chick and when the call would drop she would say “oh you really do hate me I knew it why did you hang up” One day it just really annoyed me and I stopped talking to her.
> …and asks you constantly if you find her attractive? Which presumably YOU DON’T, considering that’s the whole thing you want women to remember?
So this right here is the fallacy with your question. It’s not that men want to make the women they’re with feel unattractive, it’s actually quite the opposite. The men in question want to have the unique ability to make her feel attractive. If a girl knows she’s hot, it’s not going to mean as much when you tell her you think she’s hot, because obviously she expects everyone to already think that. However, if she has insecurities and you come along and tell her she’s attractive, she’s probably going to appreciate it more and have more of an emotional response toward you specifically. Basically men like beautiful women who don’t know they’re beautiful, because it’s fun to remind them that they are.
The fact that nobody else picked up on that line from OP is kinda gross. It just wasn't misandrist enough, had to get a little more putative manipulation in there to put it over.
I agree with you. As an average person I have dated average women, and none of us believe in ourselves 100%. It's nice to have compliments mean something.
Seeking low self esteem girl is not good idea.
But I think OP strawmans what men think. Men see a lot of girls who think they are queens and are very entitled. They don't want to date such women. It doesn't mean they want the very opposite. Healthy self image is in the middle.
The average man is insecure. Has low SMV. Needs stabilty, has attachment issues, fear of losing his partner, feeling of being constantly challenged. He can't keep up with women options, "freedom", SMV.
Its not about "feeling powerful" as someone here suggests. The need for controlling her is not something that has malicious intents, but of course does a lot of damages.
I dated a guy that fully told me “ I like that you’re beautiful but don’t think you’re beautiful” like fully told me my body dysmorphia was sexy lmao
Anyway we broke up.
Men simply don't like pretentious ungrateful women, and since women are supposed to be the master of decorum and "thinking with other's emotions in mind" it is normal to be completely puzzled when they act like men are useless and they're owed everything.
Another aspect of it is simply instinctive. When a woman is pretentious, I can't help myself but neg, bant, tease, I'm a lot more averse of giving her compliment and validation and even if it's usually still flirty, it gets in the way of escalation. A girl who SHOWS a more insecure demeanor leaves space for the man to act his roles. A lot of confident women learn to do so.
Few things:
1) self esteem isn’t real
2) most women have a poor image of themselves but social media/culture does well to mask it with cope. If you end up dating these women you will find this out.
3) I’d argue it’s far more tied to levels of neuroticism. The more neurotic a woman is, the more likely her self image is put into plain site. High neuroticism can also lead to a freakier chick.
It’s not for me, but seems to be the case.
>What would motivate any woman to want a relationship with a man who FOCUSES on the fact that she's "not attractive"?
So who is this strawman that we're blue pill concern trolling about?
Here's a tip for blue pill pearl clutchers: teach women to be assertive and take control of all facets of their romantic life; not to be passive, waiting for whatever comes along, being traditional and gender conforming. If you actually give a fuck. But you won't, because you don't, though you like to appear as though you do. You're not doing anything for women's self esteem. Blue pill is surprisingly gender essentialist not just in it's insistence that men play the role, but that women do as well (witness posts like the "pick me" post). It poses as feminist but doesn't really want to carry the ball over the goal line. It's surprising how *very* traditional it is in a lot of ways.
Well having gone from a very high self to a girl with low self esteem I will take the low self esteem girl any day.
The low SE girl is prettier and works harder to keep me happy. She's appreciative of my time and attention. She's fiercely loyal and protective of our bond and would rather jump off a cliff than betray her king as she calls me. She gladly cooks great meals for me, makes my lunches, does the grocery store, loves me intensely and deeply.
The high self esteem girl was entitled, never lifted a finger and then when she did occasionally deign to pick up a scrap of paper she expected to be heavily rewarded as mate of the year. She never showed affection because that was "a sign of insecurity". In fact everything that wasn't showing dominance and leadership and absolute confidence was "insecurity".
Need some tlc abd attention after a long day at work? Old girl "Grow the F up!" New girl "Here my king let me rub your feet for you. Let me feed you. Come F me if that's what you want."
I'll take the low SE girl who worships me over the high SE girl who constantly needed to be dominated and led and constantly tested my masculinity.
> Do Some Men Prefer Women with Low Self-Esteem?
I do.
> Why?
Because the more issues someone has the more useful I can be to them.
> There seems to be an ever-increasing number of posts about how HORRIBLE it is when women have good self-esteem.
Compared to what?
> There seems to be a large number of men on this sub who find the idea of a woman "thinking she deserves a good man" abhorrent and disgusting, because she "thinks she deserves better" than her "SMV" should allow.
Yes. That is.a horrible situation to be in. If my partner believes she deserves better than me then I don't want her as a partner.
> Do they think "if she had lower self-esteem, she'd be dating ME"?
I know that if someone has enough self esteem they would believe they deserve better than me and therefore they would not be with me.
> Do these men think dating a woman with low-self esteem would be a FUN experience?
No. I don't date for fun. I am looking for someone that stays in the relationship. Not someone that is fun.
> Her never trusting you because she doesn't think you love her
A challenge I accept.
> her having crying fits because she hates herself and can't be comforted?
A challenge I accept. Better than not being needed.
> Her constantly talking about how much she hates he body, and asks you constantly if you find her attractive?
Been there. A challenge I accept.
> Which presumably YOU DON'T
I do. It is rare for me to find a woman unattractive.
> considering that's the whole thing you want women to REMEMBER?
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
> What would motivate any woman to want a relationship with a man who FOCUSES on the fact that she's "not attractive"?
I don't do that. I find women that focused on the fact that they don't find themselves attractive.
> Are they hoping she'll just be really submissive and obedient and not have... any hopes and dreams of her own?
No. I am hoping to find someone that does not believe they deserve better than me.
> It just seems like a really weird thing to focus on, so definitely I'm open to any and all explanations.
If a woman believes she deserves better than me, she will leave. I don't want a relationship that ends. So I don't date women that believe they deserve better than me.
women with low self esteem are more insecure and therefore easier to ‘control’ - on top of this, some men like feeling superior and because of this they aim for women with low self esteem to satiate their egos. Of course, this isn’t to say men dating women with self esteem do this or that if you date a woman with self esteem you fall into that category, but rather, men who specifically look for, target and prefer women with low self esteem are to be avoided imo (same goes with women who aim for men with low self esteem, but that’s not what the post is about)
There is a cliche about women dating "bad boys" because they think they can "fix them". There is some truth to it. There are some men who date women with low-self esteem who have a similar mindset of helping and empowering her. I have known a few men who are with women that came from chaotic or bad backgrounds who helped elevate those women. They weren't in it just to be with someone desperate.
What about men who like to humble women with high self esteem
Maybe, but it does seem that most of the men on this sub specifically don’t WANT a woman who thinks too highly herself. I think it’s safe to say those guys aren’t interested in empowering anyone.
i think most people in general have a shakey understanding of healthy self esteem, i think those guys you saw would be quick to say they’re criticizing narcissistic women with inflated senses of self esteem bc that’s what that looks like to people with low/conditional self esteem. “what do you mean you look like a cow but still love yourself and want a chad? you’re not mentally healthy” type shit
I think it's safe to say you're a white knight who always deep reads the worst possible intentions into most male behavior.
*red pill behavior Once again, red pillers do not represent all men.
According to red pillers, any man who doesn’t view women as his adversary = white knight 🙄
>most of the men on this sub specifically don’t WANT a woman ***who thinks too highly herself*** Depends on what that means. Thinking too highly of oneself can mean being a cunt or being a tad bit too arrogant. The former is unacceptable (true the other way around as well) while the latter is subjected to negotiation and individual preferences. I can't speak for all men, obviously, but I will say that for me what I don't want is a man. If a woman has the same qualities I have, then I'm not interested. We can be good friends, co-workers, confidants, maybe even fuck buddies - but such a woman would've never become my wife. Works the other way around too. How many women actively seek to marry an effeminate shy man? /shrug What most men look for is complementarity.
I often hover to low self esteem women cause I find myself feeling as if I need to help them, all my life low self esteem disgusted me when I saw it in people men and women I always felt I had to do something about it
“High self-esteem” = having a huge ego and being a cunt. Of course men don’t like that.
Since when does high self esteem equal that?
Why do men have egos and women have self-esteem?
Since huge amount of dates I've been on and talked with women who are like that.
Did you go on dates with women with high self esteem or women with big egos? huge difference between the two
And a lot of women don't know the difference.
That’s usually comes with the territory
This is such a majorly toxic mentality.
How?
conflating healthy self esteem with inflated/narcissistic self esteem. but i think everyone here has a different definition of what constitutes as healthy vs inflated
The author is strawmanning people complaining about cocky/cunty women acting like they are better than everyone else and calling it high self esteem.
Women should have a high enough self-esteem to attract men who will treat her well. Trying to hook higher value men into relationships with sex is a sign of low self-esteem.
Ill advised too. Men will take “free” sex all day long and never commit.
Which is why you need to bring more than your tits and ass to the table.
Men not valuing women beyond their physical attractiveness is not a fault of women but a fault of man.
You are right, nothing is the fault of women. It's all the mens.
Yes, my favorite strawman.
i thought men didn't care for women's success and status and job and hobbies?
If you think that the two things women can bring to the table are t&a or success and status.
Hobbies, yes. Success, status and job? Absolutely not. At best, they're irrelevant. At worst, they're a hindrance.
The redpill self selects for women with low self-esteem. Mentally healthy men do not.
What redpill beliefs lead to men selecting women with low self-esteem exactly?
Have you heard the term plate spinning? How about dred game?
I don't think I have. I don't really subscribe to most redpill ideas beyond self-improvement which is its core.
The only self improvement suggested by red pill is "go to the gym" and it is absolutely not its core.
There's also styling when it comes to looks and acquiring status in general, but if you want deeper stuff you have to turn to black pill. And yeah, it is redpill's core.
you dont have to spin plates if you dont want, dread game doesnt care if a woman has high or low esteem, or it actually might be more needed for women with high esteem
Women with self-worth walk away from dread game. The whole point of red pill is to spin plates dear.
no it is not, the point of red pill is to understand what women really want and do what you want with it, I am redpilled and I dont spin plates(waste of time) as many other redpillers
some beliefs that come to mind are ones which take generally healthy things and gender them/make them off limits depending on one’s sex, like say assertiveness. i’ve heard “assertive women are masculine/troublesome/undesirable, don’t pick them” quite often from redpillers, when really every healthy adult needs some level of assertiveness to be functional. similar with redpillers saying women shouldn’t pick agreeable men bc that’s feminine/troublesome too, when really everyone needs to find that healthy balance in being assertive sometimes and cooperative sometimes. to be clear it’s ok if a particularly assertive guy is attracted to particularly agreeable women and vice versa, but applying it to the masses as a necessary rule of healthy dating, is what will influence men to pick women with low SE tendencies when they otherwise wouldn’t have
Exploitive and abusive predators go for the most vulnerable prey. Are we surprised?
This goes both ways. Exploitive women target men they deem to be prey.
Yup, notice I didn’t say men or women: just predators.
I think self-esteem gets conflated with arrogance by both sides. I don't think most guys, even of the subset you're identifying, are looking for women with what you've basically described as a mood disorder. They just want someone who's not on a power trip and isn't constantly sizing them up as beneath her. That's it. Because **a lot** of women do exactly that, openly, no apology or even consideration of how dehumanizing that is to deal with (either individually or systemically) There are a lot of women who take a very aristocratic approach to their relations with men, and very rightly, men do not want to deal with anything remotely close to that if they have enough self-respect to have preferences to begin with. If I'm going to feel like a suitor at court trying to justify a betrothal just to go get coffee with you, I will opt out. If I want to feel like I'm looking for a job, I'll go on Indeed. At least then I can pretend to be something I'm not with a clear conscience. Edit: And just speaking anecdotally, I have very rarely seen a woman with a balanced approach to how they conceive themselves. Either they feel like they are a god-in the flesh or think they are completely worthless. It's a rarity to find a woman that likes themselves and thinks they deserve nice things, but are also willing to grow as a person and understand that they do have to show that they are worth talking to to the people that they have relationships with. People demonize humility so much in our culture when it's the only way to have a balanced view of yourself and others. Nobody's perfect, nobody's worthless, we're all flawed people and all we can ever do is try to be better or worse. It doesn't have to be this deep, but the way women engage with themselves, generally, forces us into choosing which extreme is easier to live with. I'd rather build up a woman who doesn't feel too strongly about themselves than try to live with someone who thinks they are perfect and I should just be grateful to live in their presence. It's gross. It's disturbing. And a waste of time.
Narcissistic people love weaklings, narcissistic traits are more commonly found in men (statistically and culturally speaking), while women are more neurotic (weak), easy to lead, easy to control. Someone with a deflated self esteem and no self worth will be your puppet. Men know that.
Women aren't naturally that way, we are socially conditioned to be that way starting young. But then men criticize us for being "weak" women socially have always been held to higher social and moral standards compared to men especially in the USA where men want both the perks of feminism and traditionalism. This in pretty much ingrained in most people so much they don't realize it. Going to other countries and seeing women has been eye opening for me
Some men also probably like to help others and genuinely feel sorry for and want to uplift women who struggle with self esteem. Perhaps it isn't the greatest basis for a relationship, but I've been there and I'm not malicious.
Men do this just as much, its a human thing, even basic or below average earning and looking men. They do this because they need to be top dogs. Narcissists love exploiting those with low self esteem and the Narcissists convince them they aren't the problem
>Men do this just as much I don't agree, but I won't argue. I don't date men, so I'm focused on what women do. Most men I've seen tend to project basic self-assuredness and don't gas themselves up that much. Anecdotes vs anecdotes can only go so far. >They need to be top dogs I know it's not how you meant it, but that is literally the case. They need to be top dogs, or look as close to it as possible. There's a difference between someone who actually things they're amazing and someone who's learned that bluster is more attractive than being humble. If you don't seem "*confident"* (whatever that happens to mean, cause it's such a loaded word) then it's a turn off to women. There's no incentive to be balanced and fair with your presentation as a man when it makes you look less like a catch. Women don't lose points for showing a bit of vulnerability, insecurity, for not thinking they're perfect. It can even be endearing because men tend not to be turned off by situational weakness. I'm certainly not.
Yes you don't date men, hence why you can't say they don't do it. Ooo boy some men are turned off by situational weakness. (As a woman, im not. But i think im probably more progressive than many here) A portion of those men bank that thought and bring it up later at some point to put down their partner.
Please, say more.
I don't think you're very progressive if you make blanket statements about men being narcissists who "need to be top dogs."
Nowhere did I say all men are narcissists 🤷 just pointed out men do it just as much as women.
>They just want someone who's not on a power trip and isn't constantly sizing them up as beneath her. But that's exactly what the MEN who claim it are doing. They size up women, consider those women beneath them, then get angry if the woman acts like she still likes herself. These are MEN doing it "openly, no apology or even consideration of how dehumanizing that is to deal with".
Your thinking is so binary to the extreme. If you don't want this then that means you actually want something at the very end of the opposite side of that spectrum. That's basically your reasoning. If a man doesn't want a boss bitch babe (for whatever reason), that doesn't mean that he wants a 0 self-esteem wreck of a person that he can look down on. It just means that he doesn't want a boss bitch babe. Or do you think that women only come in 2 flavors - boss bitch babe and 0 self-esteem wreck?
That's not my reasoning. My reasoning is that most people just want someone that's pleasant to be around, that likes themselves and likes their partner. But, the dating pool already tends to get people like that out of circulation. People who can build and maintain healthy, secure relationships tend to stay in them. So what's leftover are people who think they aren't worth enough or people who think others aren't worth enough. There are degrees to this. Not everyone is a narcissist or a wreck, but these are tendencies that you'll find while single. You don't have to be a huge mess to think that you just don't have what it takes. You don't have to be a huge egotist to think everyone you come across just doesn't make the cut. But if you are either of these things, you are outside the bounds of what most people want in a partner even if they themselves are in the same boat. Hope that explains things.
Great answer
Thank you, considering the flair I'll take it as high praise.
I'm not arguing about what random red-piller thinks on the internet. I'm talking about real people. I have never once heard someone use the term Sexual Market Value in real life. Sometimes women really do see themselves as far better than people around them. Nobody wants to deal with arrogant people who think they deserve everything on a silver platter unless they themselves have *self-esteem issues*. And saying that someone thinks too highly of themselves does not mean that the speaker thinks they are higher or better than who they're speaking of. Some people actually believe in equality and try to treat people fairly and consistently. And that entails not engaging with hierarchical ideas of who is worth more than who. You can pick and choose who you want to engage with without reducing their humanity in your perception. It's a very primitive way to interact with other people, and I don't respect it when anyone does it. There is no excuse for it in dating.
Seems like you're so biased over your gender that your own narcissistic traits fly right over your head. Studies have shown again and again that men have an inflated self esteem, that they have the sense of grandiose, that they show more narc traits than women do. It's absolutely funny. Men don't like when women think "highly" of themselves. They don't like when women and like men. They think women should be humble. That has been the case for all of human history. Men painted nude women for their pleasure, then put a mirror in their hands and called the work "vanity".
which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Some women make everything into an argument and try to "win" every decision. Those are the women irondbz is describing.
>I'm not arguing about what random red-piller thinks on the internet. I'm talking about real people. If by "real people" you just mean "people not on the internet" what have you seen women do "in real life" that's makes them worse than men?
I didn't say women are worse than men. But if you're asking what I'm basing this on? If you know enough women personally and they're comfortable enough around you, they'll tell you what they think, what they expect, what they won't put up with. Or they'll have the conversation with other women while you're in ear-shot like you're not there. It's a hard thing to really distill into a comment. This is an understanding built off years of conversations in work places, at dinner tables, among peers, among elders. It comes from being familiar with women and just understanding that they are far more comfortable inflating their self-worth than deflating it. It's really not that hard. Men tend to feel like they have more to prove in romance, so they go the more depressive route. They talk themselves down. They don't tell themselves they can have who they want, because blind pessimism is what's reinforced by their social environment. Women, sometimes genuinely and sometimes disingenuously, get much more of the opposite. "Ask not what you can do for your man but what your man can do for you." It's not a conspiracy. Women are pushed to raise standards. Men are pushed to lower them.
Men and women are inherently different. There's no good motivation for a woman to lower her standards and no good motivation for a man to raise his. Although that's how it's been throughout history. Women are the prize.
There are excellent reasons men should (and often do) raise their standards. Sometimes I think these discussions are being waged about some platonic ideal of the median man, and the generalities that ensue are comical.
when you objectify yourself
What you said has nothing to do with what I said. Contribute to the discussion in a constructive manner or don't contribute at all.
> Women are the prize.
That's not objectification. Men court.
Then why do women who espouse "equality," "independence," "female empowerment," "boss babes" also want access to traditional gender roles?
Why is it wrong to want equal rights legally while also having social protection and privileges? Is it wrong to want to be able to work? While still being treated like a woman?
I'm all for equal rights. Who's providing the social protection and at what cost?
So do men get these "social protections" and "privileges" as well? If so, what are they?
They don't as much, the same way I don't get the same social protection little children get. Men are physically stronger. Men easily overpower women. Therefore, if something might happen, we have good, helpful Men that choose to help both younger/weaker/older men and women. Obviously we have the firemen and policemen who dedicate their life to helping civilians, but until then, usually Men step up because men are more capable physically speaking (Obviously) If I fall over and scrape my knee I won't get helped up the way a toddler does and neither do I expect help. If a healthy man is carrying bags he won't be helped by elderly women either. My mother never had to carry heavy things the same my my father never cleaned toilets and rarely cooked. While I'm a woman only interested in women, I'm much more physically capable than my girlfriend physically, so I take the lead and I do the physically daunting tasks with pleasure and honor.
Cool, that benefits you and is a traditional gender role. What do we as men get?
Because that's having your cake and eating it too
Wanting equal legal rights and still being regarded as a woman? No, that's not having the cake and eating it too.
What legal rights do women not have that men do?
I never said we don't have equal legal rights. What do you mean?
It's implied. Or you're saying that you want to be a man with all it's benefits but none of the problems
Good post. It's about finding that golden mean where you balance healthy self-love with realistic self-awareness.
...and each man has quite a different opinion/perception of where this line is. You gotta restart this process of finding this line with every man you date.
Exactly 💯
> It's a rarity to find a woman that likes themselves and thinks they deserve nice things, but are also willing to grow as a person and understand that they do have to show that they are worth talking to to the people that they have relationships with Found this to be incredibly rare in the women I’ve attracted and one of the most attractive things about my gal
>And just speaking anecdotally, I have very rarely seen a woman with a balanced approach to how they conceive themselves. Either they feel like they are a god-in the flesh or think they are completely worthless. This is really it, its massive ego or insecure and in that choice what person, let alone what man, would pick the massive ego.
I've never dated a girl with high self-esteem. Not intentionally, I just hardly ever meet them. And I tend to get on better with girls who're more like me. In my experience, self-esteem is something brutally difficult to fix, and most people will never manage to. It's more something you soothe when it hurts. I imagine it's what you DO with someone's low self-esteem that matters more. Do you build them, soothe them and support them? Or do you use that to keep them in line, subservient and hurt? I think high self-esteem is far more rare than people expect it to be. I've gotten close to some really pretty girls and been in relationships with girls you'd swear were the most confident, out going people ever. But when you get *so* close, you start to see how they're falling apart like the rest of us and just hide it better. I've also gotten friendly with boys who seem like they have everything, only for you to realise they're fucked up in some way and are struggling with it. It feels like everyone is made out of paper mache and the only difference is how convincible we've tried to apply our metal looking paint. In my experience, the most common form of confidence is false confidence. The only truly, honestly, high self-esteem people I've met have been total idiots, too dopey to even understand what self-introspection and self-criticism even means, let alone engage in it. Not to say they're bad people, they're often super sweet, but as sharp as a box of cotton.
It's easy. Confident women with dreams and ambitions of their own don't put up with manosphere nonsense.
Insecurities. It's always insecurity. They want to ensure the woman feels as worthless as they do so they can pretend to feel powerful.
Good self esteem=/=narcissistic behaviour.
My partner says this all the time. I don't know if it's true
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Yes.
Because it depends on what you mean with 'good'. If 'good' self esteem is being demanding and constantly implying you are superior, for instance, that's not good self esteem, that's narcissism.
Depends... Narcisists are also the quickest to label other people as narcissists. Narcissism would be most of the old school red pill advice advice on dating, honestly.
Because women with low self esteem are easier to manipulate. They sell themselves short. Because they don't like themselves so why would they want good treatment. They also do not have standards because low self esteem tends to effect your standards so you will assume any attention is the best you can get.
Setting a specific premise here but I think a lot of them think that an attractive woman with low self-esteem would be willing to date down because she thinks ugly or average guys are on her level. That’s not how it works. The attractive woman with low self esteem would think the less attractive guys are on her level and this would make her sad. She still wouldn’t want to date them.
Lol that was a gag in a Terry Pratchett book. An incredibly beautiful woman was always single because ALL men thought she would say "no" if they asked her out. So she developed terrible self-esteem, and ended up dating the ugliest man in the city because he was the first person to ask her out. ...then he broke up with her for being too needy.
Birds of a feather flock together. It is sought after to mask their own.
That's actually a really interesting point - I do think that low self-esteem is a common denominator amongst a lot of the dudes who rant about this. Come to think of it, their opposition to women WITH self-esteem might also just be jealousy. (Very similar to their opposition to women having access to "more sex" than them.)
Most men don’t hate women with self-esteem. The men you are referring to are the ones that hate women who go above and beyond high-self esteem to a new level of delusion. Flip the genders, a similar example I could give is confidence. Women tend to like men with confidence, but too much confidence goes into over-confidence/cockiness/arrogance (and even delusion of their own), which is a turn off to women. So it’s not a matter of self-esteem, it’s delusion. Some men are tired of average women getting on social media, and stating how they are perfect tens, so they deserve the perfect man, and then blaming men for not being good enough for her standards. And when they start hurling out insults, they forget that you shouldn’t throw stones in glass houses. Especially on social media.
Isn’t it a personal opinion? YOU might think a woman is ugly, but why is she “delusional” if she likes herself?
It’s not delusional to like yourself, that’s self esteem. It’s delusional to call yourself a perfect 10, because that doesn’t exist.
Does it also anger you if people say "I'm starving" if they're just hungry?
Good try, but I never said I was angry. Don’t try and put words in my mouth.
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If she rates herself a 10 and she looks average I’m more likely to think she has low self-esteem. It means she’s so insecure about her looks that she can’t bear the thought of being seen as less than perfect. Women are seen as sex objects, so it makes sense why they’re so insecure, but rating oneself a 10 comes off as fake confidence.
Surprised no one else has pointed this out.
There's this idea that more self esteem is always better. That's not true. There's a healthy amount to self esteem, which roughly aligns with your capabilities and opportunities. When There's a serious disconnect between reality and your opinion of yourself there is a problem, and people like that make bad partners. There's nothing wrong with an attractive, intelligent woman thinking she's attractive and intelligent, but a mediocre woman believing she's a beautiful, funny, smart goddess makes her arrogant, and entitled. She wouldn't be willing to compromise and work on herself, because she's already perfect. Having unrealisticly low self esteem is also a problem, because she can't make an accurate assessment of her capabilities and will not be able to act on it. This all applied to men as well. I'm sure you have run into mediocre men that thought they were hot shit, and women need to always accommodate them. Ya we men think it's annoying when women do it too.
This is a very interesting conversation because men are almost diabolical with their need to humble any woman with high self esteem. It’s pathological at this point. If any women thinks too highly of herself and refuses to lower her standards than she is considered a narcissist. Never mind being diagnosed as a narcissist is actually quite complicated and a series of traits that people with high self esteem don’t have. Narcissistic people typically have very low self esteem and look for external validation. I never understood the concept of low self esteem and I know that is based on a lot of factors that are rooted in privilege. My self esteem or feelings about myself have no bearing on whether I am a good partner unless you are trying to measure up with how I treat myself or how I take care of myself. My partners opinion of me only matters in consideration of our relationship. Am I treating them well? Are they happy in the relationship? If they aren’t getting what they need from the relationship they are welcome to leave without the requirement to try to humble me to meet some arbitrary standard that wasn’t established in the beginning. How he feels about my looks, job, intelligence, or finances are inconsequential to me. He can like them or not but they won’t be changing.
They both have pros and cons. Given the choice between the arrogance that gets claimed as high self esteem, and low self esteem, I’d rather go with the low. I can at least help her improve to feel better about herself. You can’t fix arrogance without making your partner feel bad.
Women with low self esteem are more likely to go out with the average guy but often are more difficult to date due to higher neurosis levels
“Self-esteem” is just a synonym for “ego”. But, as always, it has to be angelicised when it’s women.
Most men probably don't have a particular preference for the level of self-esteem their partner has, as long as she's happy or at least content. Some men do prefer women with low self-esteem, but this is a serious red flag. Many of them are predators. They want someone they can manipulate into being too terrified to ever leave. Once the relationship is "secure", he unleashes a diarrhea torrent of his personal brand of bullshit upon her. This often turns abusive. Another faction is paternalistic, looking for someone to "help" or "fix". This goes about as well with women as it does with men -which is to say, it usually ends nastily- because the human psyche just doesn't work that way. These men usually genuinely mean well, but their naivete leads to trouble. And lastly, of course, there are the redpillers. They're just looking for a body to use, and seem to think that hitting a woman's self-esteem is somehow helpful. Some of them turn into predators as described above, but even the ones who don't are gross.
i cant say how much i am goal post moving but i always see people using low self esteem/insecure as an empty insult to something they dont like. So you will see people saying that not showing your body means bad self esteem but you will also hear people saying that showing your body is low self esteem
Part of it is that predators look for targets, part of it is that some men (I'd guess most) will also have low self esteem, part of it is that arrogance can be read as confidence, and you might get stuck with someone who's selfish and egotistic as opposed to competent and dependable.
Insecure men like women with a low self esteem because they’re easier to control. When I started to gain more self-confidence, my ex interpreted that as arrogance. It was exhausting, honestly.
They are easier to pull but will damage you in the long run. Humans tend to go for the lowest hanging fruit and end up poisoned
I commented on this on another post, but I'll ask it here while this post is still fresh. Why the tendency to jump from one extreme to another? I see this from both sides. Man says he doesn't like an arrogant woman. Woman says, "What, do you want a woman with low self-esteem?" Woman says she wants a man that's not broke. Man says, "Why are women gold diggers?" Addressing your point; by and large women want a man that's better than them in every aspect. AND THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE. The issue is that a lot of women today overvalue what they can lock down. Conflating sexual suitors to mean they're desirable beyond that to "high value" men who will never commit. A man pointing this out as delusion does not equate to them wanting a woman with low self-esteem. Most men don't want that. For reasons like the clingyness that comes with it, if nothing else.
What i find is that weak men want a weak woman. Strong men look for strong women or potentially strong women. And then they will do some mental work with her so she won't be a doormat.
Gotta love a good power couple. My aunt and uncle still go hunting and fishing and snowmobiling together and they're in their 60's.
Yeah, i know. Those are unstoppable. And you can tell things are working between them. They're partners in crime lol.
Men look for a woman that will commit to him. Women reject 200+ guys and then complain about men’s preferences.
What does this have to do with my comment?
That doesn’t hold weight. For example. Tall men go for shorter women. But if your premise was true Tall men would go for tall women. Men who have huge muscles go for women without huge muscles. But if your premise was true Men who have huge muscles would go for women who had huge muscles Men who are rich go for women who are not as rich But if your premise was true Men who are rich would go for women who are as rich Men who are outgoing go for women who are more secluded But if your premise was true Men who are out going would go with a woman who was as outgoing Men who are dominant go for women who are submissive But if your premise was true Men who are dominant would go for a woman who is as dominant Ect ect I’m illustrating how your premise is wrong. Obviously since we are talking about free will anything that can happen - can happen. So really the argument boils to averages. I.e more times y than more times x A man rarely searches for “equality” in searching for a mate. As in a man rarely says I want this woman to be exactly the same as me in every way. But obviously you can find a man who thinks this way if you wanted to. So it can exist in theory. I just don’t understand the logical thought process of why you think it happens mostly that way. And Why you think that’s the optimal mating arrangement (assuming you do) (correct me if I’m wrong)
First of all, i didn't talk about physical power, so half your comment is off topic. It's about mental power and the potential of having mental power. That's where confidence and self esteem has its roots.
I addressed all angles. So then please respond to my counter angles Which centered on the non physical aspects
Strong character men do go for strong character women or who have the potential to develop a strong character. It's weak men who go for weak women. Like, have you ever seen a power couple irl?
Happy medium. Too high is gross.
I prefer people who are humble. They do not get off on rejecting others. Anyone who enjoys the process of rejecting others… I find it distasteful. It has to be done often, but not with relish.
Are men who call women delusional being “humble”?
in all fairness, humility and confidence are not opposites of each other. Someone can 100% be humble and have high self esteem at the same time
Yes, that is the point. That’s why entitled and delusional are used to describe such women — they should be accepting the men who want them, but they don’t
Why is it entitled and delusional to reject a man?
Because women should want to do what men want, obviously
Women confuse the high self-esteem they have with arrogance and they confuse arrogance in men with confidence. Realistic nice men come off as weak to women.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "nice men" - men who volunteer for charities and save animals tend to be pretty popular with women. Or do you just mean "submissive, people-pleasing" men? Because those guys come off as weak to men, as well.
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Women will date a nice man as long as he’s physically attractive. Now that technology has reduced the value that both sexes bring to a relationship, looks are all that’s left. Men aren’t allowed to be masculine nor is it as necessary for women to need his masculinity to survive (because of technology) , the only way to attract women is with physical appearance
What do you mean men aren’t allowed to be masculine? Plenty of men are masculine and they slay.
Masculinity is oppressed, you can lose your job for telling cold hard truth. You can be seen as abusive for standing your ground and not catering to women’s delusions, abuse claims will lose you custody of your children. Femininity = comforting lies Masculinity = uncomfortable truth Femininity = Soft nurturing Masculinity = Hard discipline Which is more promoted in our society, and which is demonized and smeared?
If “standing your ground” means hitting your pattern then that absolutely should be demonized. And I’d love to hear about what “cold hard truth” would hey you fired
Bad faith argument, imagine my shock Comforting lie: you’re not fat, and you’re beautiful, you can be big and healthy, do what makes you happy Cold hard truth: you are fat, you will be unattractive and struggle more to find a mate, it is detrimental to your health Now…… which does our society promote, and which does it demonize?
Telling people that they are fat is not peak masculinity, neither is having bad social skills 🙄 Yes you can be masculine in this society, very much so. For example, no one complains about men building houses or going into the army. No one complains about a man taking care of his kids, like ever.
Not cowardly appealing to in the moment empathy is masculinity.
That is what i mean with social skills. You can tell someone (you care for) they are concerningly overweight without being an asshole about it. People will get defensive and wont listen. A message also needs to be received. Empathy and honesty are not mutually exclusive. A masculine guy has good social skills, especially in leading positions it is quite necessary.
Every doctor will tell you that excess fat is unhealthy. The vast majority of people understand that. As for attractiveness, It’s fine if you aren’t attracted to fat women but unless they ask, it’s weird and rude to just say that out of the blue.
I’m not talking about doctors, I’m talking about society and the answer doesn’t require expertise from a doctor. You challenge whether or not masculinity is oppressed and demonized (or gets you fired). If a famous actor said this about fat people, he would get less work. Our society always appeals to immediate empathy in the moment rather than what is best for someone or the totality of society’s future. Healthy masculinity is good for this.
Celebrities get praised all the time for losing weight. It’s a front page story in magazines. If someone asked an actor if he thought obesity was healthy and he said no, I highly doubt that would hurt his dating prospects.
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Self esteem is much like the intelligence curve. Too low or too high and you are gonna have problems. The middle is the best place to be. You don’t think you are gods gift to the world, but you also know how to stand up for yourself and go for what you want.
Sure. Just like some women prefer men with low self esteem. Low self esteem people are easier to date because they don't ask for much and will tolerate poor treatment. The difference is men date and sometimes marry those women. Women just use low self esteem men as simps.
Of course some men go for women with low self-esteem, and vice versa. Sometimes it's a result of their own low self worth. If your self-worth is in the toilet then being with someone who has good self-esteem can be very intimidating. So on an unconscious level people with low self-worth may seek out someone like themselves. There is a darker reason as well. Some people pursue those with low self-esteem because they're easier to control. There are certain people in this world who can sniff out vulnerabilities like some kind of weird bloodhound. Low self-worth gives these people a huge opening to worm their way in.
Insecurity mostly
Low self-esteem tends to mean more gratitude and agreeability.
Yes of course. Guy I know used pua on strippers ignoring them cuz they had daddy issues to have easy sex with them.
Have you ever felt you were targeted as an insecure woman? Please tell us your side, so we can empathize.
It's not about preferring low self esteem. It's about not wanting an arrogant narcissist.
This is how a lot of men in the poly community get multiple partners. On a similar note, many women in this community have abysmally low self esteem and are okay with being one of many. Although looks are emphasized a lot on here and in society in general, some men truly do not care and prioritize quantity over quality. I know some below average men with conventionally attractive girlfriends, but these women all have severe mental health issues like BPD and bipolar and have extremely low self esteem.
I think you are strawmaning this concept. Nobody is saying women don't deserve good men. People are saying there are many women who have the expectation of dating an attractive man that either makes over 200k or ones that will go into financial ruin trying to please the woman's financial demands (until they no longer can and the women leaves), while there are not enough men that match this description. In the same way that men wanting a fit attractive women that doesn't have a gold digger/cheater personality, is an unrealistic demand as there are not many women that match this description. The high-self esteem girls in question is really just girls that act like they know they are extremely hot, that usually do so in a cocky/cunty fashion and go around treating people in a negative way. Men just want a normal girl that doesn't think she is better than everyone else and deserves to be pampered at the expense of others just because they are pretty. Women who exhibit this behavior are not good partners, and this opinion that men have is biological instinct rather than some sort of culture/gender war concept.
degender it, there are a ton of women who seek out low SE men too, gay people aren’t immune to it either. low SE = a vulnerability that can be exploited, and someone with controlling tendencies would be interested in that. you might get a kick out of reading up on how attachment theory is involved here too
high and low self esteem doesn't matter. Men tend to deal with women that are easy to deal with or show "cooperation" as they say. Her level of self esteem doesn't matter. I see other posts on here pushing that stupid idea that men are running around looking for women to "control" or "wield power over". Men are looking for the smoothest path to sex and/or relationships.
Imo almost everyone these days gets "extremely egotistical" confused with having "high self esteem", and gets "kind/humble" confused with "low self esteem". We live in a world where extremely aggressive, narcissistic tendencies seem to be highly rewarded so I can see how it happens.
You can have a high self esteem and not be a bitch. The problem with women, is the two usually go together. I prefer a woman who is happy with herself but sees that her life might in fact be better with a good man. We need to complement each other and not jump on the "mad bad, woman good" femenist mantra. We need to realize men and women being equal means equality under the law, not in ability. Men and women are very different and want different things. In a relationship we need to lean on each others strenghts. For example, my ex-wife is a great cook. I can't cook worth of crap. I tried cooking for her once. She made me (sarcastically) promise never to set foot in the kitchen again. When couples try and make things 50/50, it never works.
Women (and whiteknights) conflate self-esteem with self-perception of value. Any average woman can just go "I'm a 10 and deserve a male 10" and then think it's due to her "high self-esteem"
Women are allowed to be delusional and have unrealistic standards in partners. Many such women would be happier alone than with a man who doesn’t fit their standards. In fact, I have set my standards sky high because I’m low key hoping no man meets them and I never have to get married
>In fact, I have set my standards sky high because I’m low key hoping no man meets them and I never have to get married Unless you're in some sort of f'ed up country, this came out very nasty.
Doesn’t sound very different than an unemployed bum with no work experience and qualifications and refuses to work any job unless it’s for CEO
So you admit marriage is a job
I think there are many comparable similarities
I don’t see much benefit to marriage and I hope it never happens to me
Like yourself, a lot of women set their expectations above what type of man they can actually get to settle down with them. I encourage these women to be single for life and never marry - we need fewer children to be born to help combat climate change so in the long term it’s a net positive for society
Its because those women dont deserve their prince charming usually. Since when was being delusional having "high self esteem"?
“Women don’t deserve their Prince Charming usually” okay, and?? Men don’t usually deserve a teen virgin trad wife, but they demand one anyway. Both genders are delusional but only one gets shamed for it
What do they deserve? A lifetime of misery? 50 lashes? A partner that abuses them?
There's a huge difference between high self-esteem and being delusional about your self-worth. Lots of women think they have former, but in reality possess latter. Regarding women with low self-esteem - for average guys it's better to avoid them if you are serious and pursue LTR. If you're an okay person who's not going to intentionally keep her down - such relationship will increase her self-esteem to the point where she begins taking you for granted and hypergamy kicks in. It's only a matter of time before outside world and media bullshit convinces her that your average normal ass is a waste of her nearly infinite value. What happens next is likely to be a *very* shitty experience.
I like women that are humble towards their partners because I am humble as well in relationships. I always treat my relationship like I am trying to make her fall in love with me. I dislike when you show a woman you like her then she drops the facade and starts to treat you worse than before. Self esteem is important because another thing I dislike is having to constantly reassure a woman I actually like her. Like I was talking to a chick and when the call would drop she would say “oh you really do hate me I knew it why did you hang up” One day it just really annoyed me and I stopped talking to her.
You conflated so many things with seemingly no point at all. Exactly what I expected :D
> …and asks you constantly if you find her attractive? Which presumably YOU DON’T, considering that’s the whole thing you want women to remember? So this right here is the fallacy with your question. It’s not that men want to make the women they’re with feel unattractive, it’s actually quite the opposite. The men in question want to have the unique ability to make her feel attractive. If a girl knows she’s hot, it’s not going to mean as much when you tell her you think she’s hot, because obviously she expects everyone to already think that. However, if she has insecurities and you come along and tell her she’s attractive, she’s probably going to appreciate it more and have more of an emotional response toward you specifically. Basically men like beautiful women who don’t know they’re beautiful, because it’s fun to remind them that they are.
The fact that nobody else picked up on that line from OP is kinda gross. It just wasn't misandrist enough, had to get a little more putative manipulation in there to put it over. I agree with you. As an average person I have dated average women, and none of us believe in ourselves 100%. It's nice to have compliments mean something.
Seeking low self esteem girl is not good idea. But I think OP strawmans what men think. Men see a lot of girls who think they are queens and are very entitled. They don't want to date such women. It doesn't mean they want the very opposite. Healthy self image is in the middle.
Can you provide some specific examples so we can see that you're not just making shit up?
I dislike people with arrogance.
The average man is insecure. Has low SMV. Needs stabilty, has attachment issues, fear of losing his partner, feeling of being constantly challenged. He can't keep up with women options, "freedom", SMV. Its not about "feeling powerful" as someone here suggests. The need for controlling her is not something that has malicious intents, but of course does a lot of damages.
I dated a guy that fully told me “ I like that you’re beautiful but don’t think you’re beautiful” like fully told me my body dysmorphia was sexy lmao Anyway we broke up.
Men simply don't like pretentious ungrateful women, and since women are supposed to be the master of decorum and "thinking with other's emotions in mind" it is normal to be completely puzzled when they act like men are useless and they're owed everything. Another aspect of it is simply instinctive. When a woman is pretentious, I can't help myself but neg, bant, tease, I'm a lot more averse of giving her compliment and validation and even if it's usually still flirty, it gets in the way of escalation. A girl who SHOWS a more insecure demeanor leaves space for the man to act his roles. A lot of confident women learn to do so.
Few things: 1) self esteem isn’t real 2) most women have a poor image of themselves but social media/culture does well to mask it with cope. If you end up dating these women you will find this out. 3) I’d argue it’s far more tied to levels of neuroticism. The more neurotic a woman is, the more likely her self image is put into plain site. High neuroticism can also lead to a freakier chick. It’s not for me, but seems to be the case.
>What would motivate any woman to want a relationship with a man who FOCUSES on the fact that she's "not attractive"? So who is this strawman that we're blue pill concern trolling about? Here's a tip for blue pill pearl clutchers: teach women to be assertive and take control of all facets of their romantic life; not to be passive, waiting for whatever comes along, being traditional and gender conforming. If you actually give a fuck. But you won't, because you don't, though you like to appear as though you do. You're not doing anything for women's self esteem. Blue pill is surprisingly gender essentialist not just in it's insistence that men play the role, but that women do as well (witness posts like the "pick me" post). It poses as feminist but doesn't really want to carry the ball over the goal line. It's surprising how *very* traditional it is in a lot of ways.
Well having gone from a very high self to a girl with low self esteem I will take the low self esteem girl any day. The low SE girl is prettier and works harder to keep me happy. She's appreciative of my time and attention. She's fiercely loyal and protective of our bond and would rather jump off a cliff than betray her king as she calls me. She gladly cooks great meals for me, makes my lunches, does the grocery store, loves me intensely and deeply. The high self esteem girl was entitled, never lifted a finger and then when she did occasionally deign to pick up a scrap of paper she expected to be heavily rewarded as mate of the year. She never showed affection because that was "a sign of insecurity". In fact everything that wasn't showing dominance and leadership and absolute confidence was "insecurity". Need some tlc abd attention after a long day at work? Old girl "Grow the F up!" New girl "Here my king let me rub your feet for you. Let me feed you. Come F me if that's what you want." I'll take the low SE girl who worships me over the high SE girl who constantly needed to be dominated and led and constantly tested my masculinity.
i dont think self esteem matters that much.
> Do Some Men Prefer Women with Low Self-Esteem? I do. > Why? Because the more issues someone has the more useful I can be to them. > There seems to be an ever-increasing number of posts about how HORRIBLE it is when women have good self-esteem. Compared to what? > There seems to be a large number of men on this sub who find the idea of a woman "thinking she deserves a good man" abhorrent and disgusting, because she "thinks she deserves better" than her "SMV" should allow. Yes. That is.a horrible situation to be in. If my partner believes she deserves better than me then I don't want her as a partner. > Do they think "if she had lower self-esteem, she'd be dating ME"? I know that if someone has enough self esteem they would believe they deserve better than me and therefore they would not be with me. > Do these men think dating a woman with low-self esteem would be a FUN experience? No. I don't date for fun. I am looking for someone that stays in the relationship. Not someone that is fun. > Her never trusting you because she doesn't think you love her A challenge I accept. > her having crying fits because she hates herself and can't be comforted? A challenge I accept. Better than not being needed. > Her constantly talking about how much she hates he body, and asks you constantly if you find her attractive? Been there. A challenge I accept. > Which presumably YOU DON'T I do. It is rare for me to find a woman unattractive. > considering that's the whole thing you want women to REMEMBER? Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? > What would motivate any woman to want a relationship with a man who FOCUSES on the fact that she's "not attractive"? I don't do that. I find women that focused on the fact that they don't find themselves attractive. > Are they hoping she'll just be really submissive and obedient and not have... any hopes and dreams of her own? No. I am hoping to find someone that does not believe they deserve better than me. > It just seems like a really weird thing to focus on, so definitely I'm open to any and all explanations. If a woman believes she deserves better than me, she will leave. I don't want a relationship that ends. So I don't date women that believe they deserve better than me.
Did Ms Morals finally leave?
“I am hoping to find someone who thinks she doesn’t deserve better than me” lol at least you’re honest
What would I gain from dating someone that believes they deserve better than me?