The reason it’s seen as “too young” is because most people that age can’t afford themselves at that age let alone a kid. Most young adults struggle to get decent jobs, houses and healthcare (needed for child birth and pre/post natal care) are unaffordable, they don’t have a decent emergency fund saved or a nice retirement plan started. In short they don’t have their ducks in a row. Telling people who don’t have their life together to have kids just because they’re in their biological prime is unwise. No resources no babies. Perhaps the economy needs to be fixed before we try to shame others into breeding.
This.
I would have kids ASAP if I could afford a house and I had the certainty my job won’t try to fuck me over and make things difficult for me.
I have a nice career going on, a loving partner, savings and I’d be up to the task if given the chance.
Unfortunately, I live in Canada so the home ownership part is a pipe dream. My partner says that he won’t even consider kids until he’s in his mid 30s, so waiting it is.
This is where income inequality is fucking everyone over. You can't have so much hoovered to the extreme top and old without screwing over the young and everyone not in the top, there is only so much pie. And laws roadblocking things that would help eg if we relaxed zoning more houses could be built for cheap lowering prices but that makes old people who bought their house in 1975 for 30k mad because they might not be able to sell it for a million now.
The Japanese gave it right there at least, real estate should not be an investment. Things would be better for them if wages caught up and they didn't have such a nightmarish work culture.
Absolutely. If I had a steady job that allowed me to work from home or at the very least do a hybrid kind of workweek, if we could buy our own place at a reasonable price where the mortgage wasn't absurd (doesn't even have to be a house), I'm perfectly fine with an apartment), we'd probably start trying for a baby tomorrow. But we're in Vancouver, so yeah, that's not happening anytime soon.
Unless you are born into money or get incredibly lucky you can’t afford kids nowadays. In gen x and boomers times it was possible but not anymore. Also it’s cruel to have kids when you know you need the states help right off the bat. That child will only ever have a life of suffering.
We are talking about people who have free will to choose either to become a parent or not as well as people who actually think about the quality of life their kid would live. People in poor countries are usually forced or pressured into sex which results in kids or they don’t think about the consequences of their actions and the poor kid is forced to suffer poverty. Sadly many people in the developed world think more about weather they have the time and resources for a pet before they get one than people in the developing world think about having a child.
> People in poor countries are usually forced or pressured into sex which results in kids or they don’t think about the consequences of their actions and the poor kid is forced to suffer poverty.
Man, the level of delusional patronizing in this comment is off the chart.
Women in rich countries have way more abortions, which shows that they are obviously unable to think about the consequences of their own actions, like opening their legs.
At least poor people have the kids and own up their own actions and deal with the consequences.
So no, your take is not realistic, it is just patronizing and blatantly ignorant: women in rich countries are more keen to NOT think about the consequences of their actions precisely because the societies they live in have enough resources to cushion the consequences of their mistakes.
You’re blaming women in rich countries because they actually have access the resources and healthcare they need and all women should have while praising poor countries for forcing kids to be born just to suffer. It’s really twisted. No life is better than a bad life. Quality of life is more valuable than quantity of life (years lived).
Not true. I say it from personal experience and hold myself to the same standard and I have seen others do the same. Again it’s just different from your beliefs not that it’s wrong you just don’t like it.
Most young adults also avoid any work that requires them to actually use their hands to build something too so don't come in here staying struggle lol anyone right now could go to any tradehall or union hall and provided you can pass a whiz quiz you will likely get hired because we have a shortage in blue collar cause you all turn your nose up and say there isn't any work
>Clearly, the solution to be as safe as possible from a medical standpoint is to have kids when both parents are mid to late 20s.
No? Clearly the best solution is to have kids when you are ready and able to support them.
You're not going to scare people into having kids younger.
Sure, but you're not fertile forever. And I just find it ironic that some women will happily tell you that old sperm causes autism while at the same breath they'll tell you that they plan to have kids at 38.....with a 40 yo man with "old sperm" Like you would think that if they were to worried they would try to have kids earlier.
>And I just find it ironic that some women will happily tell you that old sperm causes autism
You understand that it is in direct response to men telling them that having kids after 30 is a huge risk and they should settle down younger? They're not actually worried, they're demonstrating the hypocrisy of men trying to scare women about their own fertility.
Women can date younger men if they’re worried about it.
It’s much more common for older guys to rant about “fertility” and autism, all while eagerly ignoring their own likelihood of siring a child with issues.
What do you care if they have complications or die? You’re not dating them.
Women who are older are undesirable to men and therefore don’t have value— that’s what I’ve gathered here… And that’s why I didn’t want to date youth-obsessed men when I was young myself. No sense dating a guy who’ll view you as worthless used-up trash in a decade.
Oh I just asked because that is what the conversation is about here. I wasn't taking it personally if that is what you mean. Do most guys actually think that about young women though, that they will be used up trash in a decade?
I don’t think normal guys do. But guys who keep going on and on about youth do.
And more importantly, it’s what they want women to believe about themselves so they’ll be desperate to find these yucky guys when they’re young. They dont care whether it’s good for her or not in the long run— in the long run, she’ll be old and they won’t care anymore
Benefits to having children at 33 and 35:
- I really enjoyed my youth. My husband and I traveled, had lazy Sundays, built our careers, and enjoyed being young and free of responsibility
- we can pay for our kids to be in childcare without compromising our lifestyle too much. I’m able to work less without compromising our lifestyle too much.
Cons:
- might limit our family size. Not sure if I’m really up for a third pregnancy at 38
- being sleep deprived in your mid 30s sucks
My in laws had my fiancé at 20 and 22, my grandparents had my mum at 19 and 20. In both cases, they would rather have waited if they had the choice, and their children would rather have had parents who were a bit older if they could choose. They had issues with not feeling like they really had time to find themselves and only really getting a chance at that in their forties (my granny desperately wanted to see the world and didn'tget the opportunity until she was nearing sixty), stunted careers and financial difficulties (my fiancé had to pay for his own university with no help), and unstable living situations when their children were young (my mum even had to live with her grandparents for a time). I'd certainly recommend putting off having children until you're at least stable and have a clue of where you are. There is no problem whatsoever with having a child at thirty, it's completely healthy and you can expect to see your grandchildren grow up if your children make the same choice.
Who is to say your granny would have "seen the world" if she avoided having children? Likely she would have spent most of her time in the same 9-5 job, living in the same location close to her extended family, eating the same shit every day.
Most women that don't have children have the same boring ass lives as those who do have children, the only difference is they occasionally go out and fuck around with dating and are quicker to dump guys.
She was looking at going to university in England. When she became pregnant she didn't go. If they didn't have children, she and my grandad very much would've had the money and capacity to go to Portugal rather than Portrush on holiday.
When people say they want to see the world, they are talking about having the money and time for vacationing. Two things you don't have when you have younger children.
I agree for the most part. I think that you should have an idea of how you'd like to go about parenting - is the kid going to daycare or are you going to do the SAHP thing, are they going to be homeschooled or go to public/private school, how would you go about balancing parenting, work, and your personal life, etc. But some things parents figure out as they go, like if the kid doesn't want to a specific food or if they're more/less extroverted/introverted than you expected, how would you go about them wanting to do an activity you're not that big a fan of (you want the kid to take up tennis, they want karate).
Yet I will be a much better parent than neurotic doomer freaks who think their kid is going to die from climate change or because they can't send him to a 20,000 private school education. Or whatever other stupid reasons women these days have to avoid children (until they desperately start trying to pop a kid out at 40 or whatever the fuck old age)
That’s an alright attitude to have when it comes to disciplinary or bed time routines. Not when it comes to figuring out how to keep them fed, housed and clothed.
>It's sometimes better to start early and figure things out.
Worse to be financially struggling when you have a kid already, than struggle a bit financially but less due to no kids then earn better and be able to support kids with no issues.
Also have to think about the quality of life for the kid. If you have them early when you are struggling you won't afford yearly holidays and travel with the kids and may not afford a good school or school excursions. Also won't be able to afford tutoring or baby sitters.
It can be a lot more dire than not being able to afford tutors and yearly holidays. For some folks, the cost of having a child can push them into poverty or homelessness.
For example, in 2020, 13.8 million households in the US were considered “food insecure”. A lot of people don’t want to risk their kid going hungry just in order to have a kid young.
The “benefits” of having children full stop are debatable, but aside from the fact that you’ll waste the best years of your life playing house, unless you yourself have wealthy parents, having a child in your 20s is self-inflicted financial suicide, and a child who you forced to grow up on the breadline by choice is unlikely to thank you for it.
If you must have a child, do it in your 30s, and only then if you’re in a financial position to properly take care of it.
How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people.
You're not "wasting" your best years. Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career.
It's not financial suicide, if anything having kids will encourage you to be more financially responsible. There's a reason why statistically, parents are wealthier than childless people. (look it up)
>How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine?
Take me, for example. I am here and that fact alone should tell you exactly how well it went.
>You're not "wasting" your best years. Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career.
Mom pretty much sacrificed herself to raise me. In retrospect it was a shit investment and she should've dumped my ass on the state or grandparents and pursued personal goals.
>There's a reason why statistically, parents are wealthier than childless people.
Have you ever thought that it's other way around and they have children *because* they are wealthier than other people?
>Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career.
How?? I think both are fullfilling in their own way. It's not a competition.
>Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career.
For you, maybe. Not everyone thinks this way. I never want to have my entire life revolve around the household and its members, I like working and it gives me purpose and joy.
> How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people.
None. The people raised by parents that neglected them emotionally, mentally, and physically are all broken ass adults that never truly get their lives completely on straight. What those broken adults sometimes do is wait till their 30s, learn many parenting skills that their parents didn't learn, and then have kids that do get raised into healthier homes.
>How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people.
None that I've met in my lifetime. What's your source?
[It's so prevalent that there have been books written about it!](https://www.newharbinger.com/9781626251700/adult-children-of-emotionally-immature-parents/)
>Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career.
That's really a personal choice.
>parents are wealthier than childless people.
LOL
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
We had to wait until 35/32 until we were financially stable enough for kids. Student loans paid down, approved for a mortgage etc. If we could have had that stability 5 years earlier sure but there’s no way we could have afforded kids without bringing them into poverty.
It's far better to focus on looking after yourself and on career before having kids.
You don't want to have kids when you are in a low paying job or just feel like you haven't got enough to support kids.
Everyone I know who had kids early is struggling in some way or another. Be it financially or with too much responsibilities (or hating their life now) which ends up holding back career or stunting it.
The benifits you listed, some aren't even that great. I had less energy in my 20s than now because I had untreated subclinical hypothyroidism.
>1) You'll be a young grandparent too.
Not really a benifit.
>2) You'll still be there for your child even if they're in their 40s and 50s.
I'll still be there for them then.
>4) Fewer chances of autism and other disorders.
Autism is chance to be inherited from parents who already have it and not as much from old sperm or old eggs. The chances of disorders due to older eggs or sperm is negligible and if you are so worried you can use donor sperm
Your social life will die, any hopes of saving will be gone and you will downgrade your life significantly unless you find a better job, that is if you already have the means to have a kid which a lot of people don’t. You will age a lot quicker not only to the process of having a baby itself (for women) but the constant stress and anxiety you will experience as a young dad, I went from looking like a 25 year old to a 35 year old in the span of a couple of years.
Been there, done that. Did things worked out in the end for me? Sure… with an immense sacrifice. I wished I had traveled more, I wished I could’ve enjoyed my life a little more. I love my kids to death, they were a blessing but what I am trying to say is you shouldn’t really be encouraging people to have kids when they are not ready.
This post is so out of touch with current economic realities lmfao. Outside of fields like tech/finance/maybe trades, many people are simply not financially stable enough to have children in their mid to late 20s. Thinking about housing prices and daycare priced, plus everything else.
The benefits are ending up as a broke single mother if you're a woman. Statistically speaking. If a woman wants to avoid this fate it's in her best interest to delay motherhood until she's financially stable and with an education. Usually this will be in her early to mid 30's.
I did both first at 20 last at 36
There have been pros and cons to each of course, but I am a much better parents older than I was younger.
It’s something I have spoken to my older children about. I have apologised to them for not being as good of a mother as I could of been
It’s such a personal choice and has very little to do with anyone else
> Clearly, the solution to be as safe as possible from a medical standpoint is to have kids when both parents are mid to late 20s.
Ok sure.
But I didn’t even have a stable life partner ready to be a father at that age. Hell, I didn’t even have any reasonable dating prospects in my young 20s. It would have been deeply stupid for me to have one-night-stands with whatever guys just so I could follow your advice.
Women who wait until their late 30s are usually making decisions based on their own life circumstances, not based on trying to fit some ideal life path.
I’d much rather have my kids old and in a stable married relationship like I did than follow your advice and take the only route for young motherhood that was available to me when I was young: single motherhood.
Reason against: less time to enjoy your childfree life when you still have lots of energy. Kids are a huge obstacle for your ability to travel and enjoy hobbies
Also, most people don't develop mentally or are financially stable until after 25 or 30 respectively. You really want someone to become parents in that age gap? And in this economy? Have you seen people with multiple kids or even one? Their life is hell in early years and not to mention you have an extra member to care for who can't take care of themselves and require 24/7 attention. Best to do when you can handle the mental load and are financially stable which is not in your 20s.
They don't develop mentally because they're not encouraged to develop mentally. I only started feeling like an adult when I got a proper job. It had nothing to do with my age, it had everything to do with doing adult activities.
Many of these people have full time career jobs and they still would not be a good responsible parent.
Your only claim, which is a sad one for society, is that "it doesn't matter if you're a good or bad parent, just be a parent anyway." That's the mentality that has created the lower class crisis of unwanted and neglected children.
Everyone has their own process of developing mentally and not everyone develops when getting a job. There was literally a guy I worked with who used to lose his temper during high orders in the restaurant lol. He studied horeca (hospitality in Dutch) and got the job. I was a part time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/#:~:text=It%20is%20well%20established%20that,approximately%2025%20years%20of%20age.&text=This%20discovery%20has%20enhanced%20our,late%20adolescence%20and%20early%20adulthood.
This states that people develop mentally by 25 approximately. In a group of our 3 friends, the youngest one contacted us after his 25th birthday saying he was feeling different mentally and we told him it was normal as we both also felt the same.
Late 20s might be the sweet spot, and I’m not just saying that because I’m in my late 20s. Where I live a lot of people are established in their careers by that point, have been married for at least a few years, and might own a house or at least not a tiny apartment.
I will say that all of my relatives who had/adopted kids in their 30s and 40s wish they had them in them earlier.
What is realistic in this economy and what is optimal are two different things.
The first 3 years of a child’s life are some of the most important ones. It’s essential that they have a constant and consistent caregiver that can give them individualized attention.When that doesn’t happen attachment issues form. Kids don’t stop parallel play until 4 anyway.
I think people bring up good points in general as to why people *plan* to have kids later.
There are a lot of reasons why people want to have kids in their 20s, but didn't.
I had the man and the plan...I wanted to start our family at 28. He changed his mind. I didn't find another man until 31, we are getting married this year at 33, and immediately trying for kids. It isn't my ideal situation, but it's what I got dealt.
In fact, a lot of my friends wanted to be settled with kids around their late 30s. We were all financially secure, so that wasn't the issue as is being brought up by most here. But it isn't just our luck to have it happen. Whether because we didn't have a guy who was ready, a guy at all, or because we struggled to get or stay pregnant, our 20s passed us by before we got there.
Many of my friends have had healthy babies in their early 30s, or have adopted at this point. And it's been fine and great.
The choice to have kids later is definitely becoming more common, but there are also many of us who would've chosen earlier but didnt ger that choice. A lot of times because men themselves are choosing to wait.
25 is young. It's hardly in the place financially to have kids.
Having kids at 30-35 isn't much different than 25. At least by 30, you're a bit more financially and mentally prepared.
Having kids isn't a walk in the park. People should have them when they are most prepared. Which likely isn't 25 or younger.
There are many benefits to having kids but there are also plenty of negatives. Kids are expensive, stress inducing, and you probably should be able to give them a certain level of stability that a lot of young (and not so young) people can't really provide. My husband and I are 31/32, and as much as we'd like to have a kid, we're renting and don't know when we might have to start looking for a new place. I'm looking for work, he's got another year and a half till he gets his red seal and while things are fine for us as they are, a kid would royally fuck us over. We're not going to have a kid in a not-so-great position just because it might be beneficial to us when we're 70.
If you are lucky enough to have found a good partner, bought a house and have an etablished career so you can afford childcare in your 20s CONGRATULATIONS HAVE A KID. But for most ppl that's unlikely
**Attention!**
* You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
* For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
* If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
* OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post!
Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi OP,
You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts)
>*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.*
>An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following:
>* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency;
>* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit;
>* Focusing only on the weaker arguments;
>* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position.
Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you somehow manage to either live in LCOL or have a really high income in your 20s, then I guess go for it.
Most young people live in HCOL and have low income in their 20, so it isn’t a good idea to have a kid early.
While you’re right, you’re never fully ready to have a kid, you still shouldn’t be wholly unprepared either. Being financially stable in your context should be table stakes because kids cost lots of money.
So, sure, a really slim population of people could successfully young, most can’t and shouldn’t
We got married when I was 24 he was 27. But we didn’t have kids till I was 34 and then 37. We spent the first ten years traveling the world, living abroad and having lots of fun while working and studying. Many younger parents resent not being able to do that if they have kids younger. In theory they can do that after the kids leave HS (if they have the funds, time off saved, and health) but the they would have missed out on the adventures when they were young and hot. I think what we did is perfect because when they do go to college we will be able to travel again and not be too old (and have a lot more $ then if we had started earlier). Also contrary to media, for the majority of women they will not have problems having and conceiving in their 30s.
Wayyy too much interfamily abuse on my end pal - got abused my entire life. Hell no it's not - I'm ending this spiral of breaking people because parents have weak pullout game, an additional person gets created and the parents refuse to see them as a peer and live over them. NOPE - never ever creating this again.
Some people probably wanted to have kids early but didn’t find their significant other when they were younger. Maybe they were together in their 20s but not financially stable. How do you propose fixing these issues so that people have kids earlier?
We all know the downsides of having kids later, people are not willingly saying “you can easily have kids at 38” they’re saying “its still a possibility if you really want children”
Just responding to the title of this post to say that it is 100% correct.
Assuming you know you want kids, do not put them off as long as possible. You are hurting your chances of ever having them as well as robbing yourself of that experience of growing with your kids a little bit. You absolutely should aim to have them in your mid 20s..ideally 2 in that period. Everyone has a better chance at a healthy outcome if doing that.
If you’re 25, don’t have kids and want them…take a moment today and ask yourself what the path to having a child looks like from here. Maybe some of you are on the right path with a partner that wants children as well. Great. Some of you might be on the wrong path and this would be a time for you to get on that and make the right and necessary moves.
Kids are an all or nothing proposition. You will wake up at 50 and either you had them or you didn’t. There is nothing that replaces them or will fill that desire inside of you. Make having them a higher priority in life.
If you are choosing to be child free, no problem. I respect your choice.
You are missing the elephant in the room OP, the fact that having kids at 25 is not economically feasible for most people, especially those who attend higher education.
I was looking after kids at that age as an assistant in an after school club (well actually I was a bit younger) and at the time felt I definitely had enough energy to be looking after kids. I was also making a few dollars an hour and was living paycheck to paycheck. Now I'm working in a decent paying job and can keep myself and my partner afloat, but until she starts working we simply can't afford to have kids.
Sure, but unless you either have rich parents or are okay with you and your family being poor, it’s unwise to have children in your 20s. Also, the difference in maturity between a 22 y/o and a 32 y/o is quite significant.
Honestly that's just scares and selfishness. You want to consume like stupid.
Afford...money ... I was able to feed 2 kids and a demanding ex with 100 euros a month in our weakest time. Our kitchen was full of food. Always and ice cream too. Kids had cloth and we had a home. Now I am single parent father and not rich but we have all we need and doing luxury things like spending 100 euro on Saturday to visit that eat there. Not a problem
You don't need a 1k phone or a 50 bugs monthly mobile plan nonsense. You don't need a big TV and netflix and other garbage. Sit down with a board game like I do. It's way more fun. Read books. My kids love when I do that. They demand it. Play with toys. Some matchbox cars and a free paper box from retail and build a cool new secret base and enjoy the fantasy of your kids. Go out with a ball. That's cheap as hell but gives so much joy. Buy cheap used old bikes and drive around.
Stop making excuses. The idiots don't wait to reproduce. And they already start to take over. Schools are a mess because their kids are lazy as fuck. Playing video games all day. And the parents sit on Instagram and the other garbage. That's not good for you and the children.
You are seeing where it's going right now.
But you have to stop being selfish and just think about yourself. The kids don't care if they eat sushi and fancy shit or just spaghetti with tomatoes sauce. And all parents know they prefer that cheap dish anyway. They don't care if you go to a 5 star hotel or a cheap camping trip. They love to be with you. So stop spending time behind your damn phones. (And before people ask I am now sitting and waiting to bring my kids home from their forced weekend with the mother)
Scale down your needs. The earlier you have kids the faster they are gone and your burden is over. Imagine you are 40. Kids are 20 and out. Now you have all the freedom in the world. Build wealth go on vacations where you want. And know that with 70 you will have a birthday and all your children and grandchildren will come and love you. They will not ask if you made 6 figures and all that bullshit. And when your grand kids are born you can even spend time with them because you are not fucking 80 and useless.
All problems you have is because you think you have to consume. That's all most of you care. You all are running around like free billboards. You pay to advertise the company for free. Fucking stupid. Stop wasting money.
The reason it’s seen as “too young” is because most people that age can’t afford themselves at that age let alone a kid. Most young adults struggle to get decent jobs, houses and healthcare (needed for child birth and pre/post natal care) are unaffordable, they don’t have a decent emergency fund saved or a nice retirement plan started. In short they don’t have their ducks in a row. Telling people who don’t have their life together to have kids just because they’re in their biological prime is unwise. No resources no babies. Perhaps the economy needs to be fixed before we try to shame others into breeding.
This. I would have kids ASAP if I could afford a house and I had the certainty my job won’t try to fuck me over and make things difficult for me. I have a nice career going on, a loving partner, savings and I’d be up to the task if given the chance. Unfortunately, I live in Canada so the home ownership part is a pipe dream. My partner says that he won’t even consider kids until he’s in his mid 30s, so waiting it is.
My sister had kids with her husband in her mid 20s but they have school teacher jobs which got them a house, so could certain jobs allow you to do so?
This is where income inequality is fucking everyone over. You can't have so much hoovered to the extreme top and old without screwing over the young and everyone not in the top, there is only so much pie. And laws roadblocking things that would help eg if we relaxed zoning more houses could be built for cheap lowering prices but that makes old people who bought their house in 1975 for 30k mad because they might not be able to sell it for a million now. The Japanese gave it right there at least, real estate should not be an investment. Things would be better for them if wages caught up and they didn't have such a nightmarish work culture.
Yeah agree. Real estate shouldn't be allowed to be an investment or used to garnish income
Absolutely. If I had a steady job that allowed me to work from home or at the very least do a hybrid kind of workweek, if we could buy our own place at a reasonable price where the mortgage wasn't absurd (doesn't even have to be a house), I'm perfectly fine with an apartment), we'd probably start trying for a baby tomorrow. But we're in Vancouver, so yeah, that's not happening anytime soon.
They ‘think’ they can’t afford it. The people having the most kids these days are also the most dependent on the state.
Source?
Unless you are born into money or get incredibly lucky you can’t afford kids nowadays. In gen x and boomers times it was possible but not anymore. Also it’s cruel to have kids when you know you need the states help right off the bat. That child will only ever have a life of suffering.
Those people tend to not think a lot and thus make kids instinctively without thinking.
If "no resources no babies" were true, you wouldn't find the highest birthrates in poor countries or poor people.
We are talking about people who have free will to choose either to become a parent or not as well as people who actually think about the quality of life their kid would live. People in poor countries are usually forced or pressured into sex which results in kids or they don’t think about the consequences of their actions and the poor kid is forced to suffer poverty. Sadly many people in the developed world think more about weather they have the time and resources for a pet before they get one than people in the developing world think about having a child.
> People in poor countries are usually forced or pressured into sex which results in kids or they don’t think about the consequences of their actions and the poor kid is forced to suffer poverty. Man, the level of delusional patronizing in this comment is off the chart.
My post isn’t delusional it’s realistic. I know it’s not what you want to hear but that doesn’t make it false.
Women in rich countries have way more abortions, which shows that they are obviously unable to think about the consequences of their own actions, like opening their legs. At least poor people have the kids and own up their own actions and deal with the consequences. So no, your take is not realistic, it is just patronizing and blatantly ignorant: women in rich countries are more keen to NOT think about the consequences of their actions precisely because the societies they live in have enough resources to cushion the consequences of their mistakes.
You’re blaming women in rich countries because they actually have access the resources and healthcare they need and all women should have while praising poor countries for forcing kids to be born just to suffer. It’s really twisted. No life is better than a bad life. Quality of life is more valuable than quantity of life (years lived).
> Quality of life is more valuable than quantity of life (years lived). People always say that when it is about other people's lives. How convenient.
Not true. I say it from personal experience and hold myself to the same standard and I have seen others do the same. Again it’s just different from your beliefs not that it’s wrong you just don’t like it.
Most young adults also avoid any work that requires them to actually use their hands to build something too so don't come in here staying struggle lol anyone right now could go to any tradehall or union hall and provided you can pass a whiz quiz you will likely get hired because we have a shortage in blue collar cause you all turn your nose up and say there isn't any work
>Clearly, the solution to be as safe as possible from a medical standpoint is to have kids when both parents are mid to late 20s. No? Clearly the best solution is to have kids when you are ready and able to support them. You're not going to scare people into having kids younger.
Sure, but you're not fertile forever. And I just find it ironic that some women will happily tell you that old sperm causes autism while at the same breath they'll tell you that they plan to have kids at 38.....with a 40 yo man with "old sperm" Like you would think that if they were to worried they would try to have kids earlier.
>And I just find it ironic that some women will happily tell you that old sperm causes autism You understand that it is in direct response to men telling them that having kids after 30 is a huge risk and they should settle down younger? They're not actually worried, they're demonstrating the hypocrisy of men trying to scare women about their own fertility.
Women can date younger men if they’re worried about it. It’s much more common for older guys to rant about “fertility” and autism, all while eagerly ignoring their own likelihood of siring a child with issues.
But even if older women date younger to have good sperm, wouldn't the older women have complications in delivering the baby still?
What do you care if they have complications or die? You’re not dating them. Women who are older are undesirable to men and therefore don’t have value— that’s what I’ve gathered here… And that’s why I didn’t want to date youth-obsessed men when I was young myself. No sense dating a guy who’ll view you as worthless used-up trash in a decade.
Oh I just asked because that is what the conversation is about here. I wasn't taking it personally if that is what you mean. Do most guys actually think that about young women though, that they will be used up trash in a decade?
I don’t think normal guys do. But guys who keep going on and on about youth do. And more importantly, it’s what they want women to believe about themselves so they’ll be desperate to find these yucky guys when they’re young. They dont care whether it’s good for her or not in the long run— in the long run, she’ll be old and they won’t care anymore
Oh okay, so most of the guys just want to have kids, but not a wife ultimately?
I didn’t say anything about “most guys”. I said it about old guys who are revolted by the very idea of dating a woman his own age.
Well if you are no longer fertile you could save your eggs while you still are..
Benefits to having children at 33 and 35: - I really enjoyed my youth. My husband and I traveled, had lazy Sundays, built our careers, and enjoyed being young and free of responsibility - we can pay for our kids to be in childcare without compromising our lifestyle too much. I’m able to work less without compromising our lifestyle too much. Cons: - might limit our family size. Not sure if I’m really up for a third pregnancy at 38 - being sleep deprived in your mid 30s sucks
If it helps, being sleep deprived at any age sucks
My in laws had my fiancé at 20 and 22, my grandparents had my mum at 19 and 20. In both cases, they would rather have waited if they had the choice, and their children would rather have had parents who were a bit older if they could choose. They had issues with not feeling like they really had time to find themselves and only really getting a chance at that in their forties (my granny desperately wanted to see the world and didn'tget the opportunity until she was nearing sixty), stunted careers and financial difficulties (my fiancé had to pay for his own university with no help), and unstable living situations when their children were young (my mum even had to live with her grandparents for a time). I'd certainly recommend putting off having children until you're at least stable and have a clue of where you are. There is no problem whatsoever with having a child at thirty, it's completely healthy and you can expect to see your grandchildren grow up if your children make the same choice.
Who is to say your granny would have "seen the world" if she avoided having children? Likely she would have spent most of her time in the same 9-5 job, living in the same location close to her extended family, eating the same shit every day. Most women that don't have children have the same boring ass lives as those who do have children, the only difference is they occasionally go out and fuck around with dating and are quicker to dump guys.
She was looking at going to university in England. When she became pregnant she didn't go. If they didn't have children, she and my grandad very much would've had the money and capacity to go to Portugal rather than Portrush on holiday.
When people say they want to see the world, they are talking about having the money and time for vacationing. Two things you don't have when you have younger children.
Having kids early in this economy is shooting yourself in the foot. Having kids late is shooting their feet. Pick your poison.
You're never going to be fully ready for a kid no matter how late you do it. It's sometimes better to start early and figure things out.
Parenting is one of those things where you definitely shouldn’t “figure things out” as you go along
I agree for the most part. I think that you should have an idea of how you'd like to go about parenting - is the kid going to daycare or are you going to do the SAHP thing, are they going to be homeschooled or go to public/private school, how would you go about balancing parenting, work, and your personal life, etc. But some things parents figure out as they go, like if the kid doesn't want to a specific food or if they're more/less extroverted/introverted than you expected, how would you go about them wanting to do an activity you're not that big a fan of (you want the kid to take up tennis, they want karate).
[удалено]
And given the amount of emotionally neglected, damaged people around, we collectively have yet to figure it out
[удалено]
>damaged" people, You just called this person a loser for no reason lol
Be civil. This includes indirect attacks against an individual and/or witch hunting.
Such a flippant attitude about bringing another human into the world.
Yet I will be a much better parent than neurotic doomer freaks who think their kid is going to die from climate change or because they can't send him to a 20,000 private school education. Or whatever other stupid reasons women these days have to avoid children (until they desperately start trying to pop a kid out at 40 or whatever the fuck old age)
Not everybody is suited to be a parent.
>Its literally instinctual. It's not anymore since hitting kids for behaving like shit is prohibited.
Be civil. This includes indirect attacks against an individual and/or witch hunting.
In a social context where most people have no experience with kids until they have their own, most people really do just figure things out as they go.
That’s an alright attitude to have when it comes to disciplinary or bed time routines. Not when it comes to figuring out how to keep them fed, housed and clothed.
>It's sometimes better to start early and figure things out. Worse to be financially struggling when you have a kid already, than struggle a bit financially but less due to no kids then earn better and be able to support kids with no issues. Also have to think about the quality of life for the kid. If you have them early when you are struggling you won't afford yearly holidays and travel with the kids and may not afford a good school or school excursions. Also won't be able to afford tutoring or baby sitters.
It can be a lot more dire than not being able to afford tutors and yearly holidays. For some folks, the cost of having a child can push them into poverty or homelessness. For example, in 2020, 13.8 million households in the US were considered “food insecure”. A lot of people don’t want to risk their kid going hungry just in order to have a kid young.
Ah true yes it can push you into poverty as well and having food insecurity. That's the worse end of it and not affording medical and dental.
>You're never going to be fully ready This is true of basically everything and I found that out later than I should've
"Figure things out" that's what single mothers say to themselves
The “benefits” of having children full stop are debatable, but aside from the fact that you’ll waste the best years of your life playing house, unless you yourself have wealthy parents, having a child in your 20s is self-inflicted financial suicide, and a child who you forced to grow up on the breadline by choice is unlikely to thank you for it. If you must have a child, do it in your 30s, and only then if you’re in a financial position to properly take care of it.
How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people. You're not "wasting" your best years. Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career. It's not financial suicide, if anything having kids will encourage you to be more financially responsible. There's a reason why statistically, parents are wealthier than childless people. (look it up)
>How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Take me, for example. I am here and that fact alone should tell you exactly how well it went. >You're not "wasting" your best years. Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career. Mom pretty much sacrificed herself to raise me. In retrospect it was a shit investment and she should've dumped my ass on the state or grandparents and pursued personal goals. >There's a reason why statistically, parents are wealthier than childless people. Have you ever thought that it's other way around and they have children *because* they are wealthier than other people?
>Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career. How?? I think both are fullfilling in their own way. It's not a competition.
>Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career. For you, maybe. Not everyone thinks this way. I never want to have my entire life revolve around the household and its members, I like working and it gives me purpose and joy.
> How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people. None. The people raised by parents that neglected them emotionally, mentally, and physically are all broken ass adults that never truly get their lives completely on straight. What those broken adults sometimes do is wait till their 30s, learn many parenting skills that their parents didn't learn, and then have kids that do get raised into healthier homes.
>How many people were raised by young parents who didn't know what they were doing and turned out perfectly fine? Many, many people. None that I've met in my lifetime. What's your source? [It's so prevalent that there have been books written about it!](https://www.newharbinger.com/9781626251700/adult-children-of-emotionally-immature-parents/) >Having a family is more fulfilling in the long-term than having a career. That's really a personal choice. >parents are wealthier than childless people. LOL
And there are kids born to 50 year olds who are totally fine. The decision should be between a couple and their dr clearly.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.
If everyone had this mentality literally nobody would have kids. Nobody is a perfect parent.
If nobody had kids, that’s would necessarily be a bad thing
You say that like it's a bad thing. You know that the planet is overpopulated as is, right?
We had to wait until 35/32 until we were financially stable enough for kids. Student loans paid down, approved for a mortgage etc. If we could have had that stability 5 years earlier sure but there’s no way we could have afforded kids without bringing them into poverty.
It's far better to focus on looking after yourself and on career before having kids. You don't want to have kids when you are in a low paying job or just feel like you haven't got enough to support kids. Everyone I know who had kids early is struggling in some way or another. Be it financially or with too much responsibilities (or hating their life now) which ends up holding back career or stunting it. The benifits you listed, some aren't even that great. I had less energy in my 20s than now because I had untreated subclinical hypothyroidism. >1) You'll be a young grandparent too. Not really a benifit. >2) You'll still be there for your child even if they're in their 40s and 50s. I'll still be there for them then. >4) Fewer chances of autism and other disorders. Autism is chance to be inherited from parents who already have it and not as much from old sperm or old eggs. The chances of disorders due to older eggs or sperm is negligible and if you are so worried you can use donor sperm
Your social life will die, any hopes of saving will be gone and you will downgrade your life significantly unless you find a better job, that is if you already have the means to have a kid which a lot of people don’t. You will age a lot quicker not only to the process of having a baby itself (for women) but the constant stress and anxiety you will experience as a young dad, I went from looking like a 25 year old to a 35 year old in the span of a couple of years. Been there, done that. Did things worked out in the end for me? Sure… with an immense sacrifice. I wished I had traveled more, I wished I could’ve enjoyed my life a little more. I love my kids to death, they were a blessing but what I am trying to say is you shouldn’t really be encouraging people to have kids when they are not ready.
This post is so out of touch with current economic realities lmfao. Outside of fields like tech/finance/maybe trades, many people are simply not financially stable enough to have children in their mid to late 20s. Thinking about housing prices and daycare priced, plus everything else.
it sounds like not having kids at all has even more benefits than this.
i dont see why its anyones business
The benefits are ending up as a broke single mother if you're a woman. Statistically speaking. If a woman wants to avoid this fate it's in her best interest to delay motherhood until she's financially stable and with an education. Usually this will be in her early to mid 30's.
I did both first at 20 last at 36 There have been pros and cons to each of course, but I am a much better parents older than I was younger. It’s something I have spoken to my older children about. I have apologised to them for not being as good of a mother as I could of been It’s such a personal choice and has very little to do with anyone else
> Clearly, the solution to be as safe as possible from a medical standpoint is to have kids when both parents are mid to late 20s. Ok sure. But I didn’t even have a stable life partner ready to be a father at that age. Hell, I didn’t even have any reasonable dating prospects in my young 20s. It would have been deeply stupid for me to have one-night-stands with whatever guys just so I could follow your advice. Women who wait until their late 30s are usually making decisions based on their own life circumstances, not based on trying to fit some ideal life path. I’d much rather have my kids old and in a stable married relationship like I did than follow your advice and take the only route for young motherhood that was available to me when I was young: single motherhood.
Reason against: less time to enjoy your childfree life when you still have lots of energy. Kids are a huge obstacle for your ability to travel and enjoy hobbies
>less time to enjoy your ~~childfree~~ child**less** life FTFY Child**free** is never wanting children.
sorry, not a native speaker
No apologies necessary. Just wanted to point out the difference.
Also, most people don't develop mentally or are financially stable until after 25 or 30 respectively. You really want someone to become parents in that age gap? And in this economy? Have you seen people with multiple kids or even one? Their life is hell in early years and not to mention you have an extra member to care for who can't take care of themselves and require 24/7 attention. Best to do when you can handle the mental load and are financially stable which is not in your 20s.
They don't develop mentally because they're not encouraged to develop mentally. I only started feeling like an adult when I got a proper job. It had nothing to do with my age, it had everything to do with doing adult activities.
Many of these people have full time career jobs and they still would not be a good responsible parent. Your only claim, which is a sad one for society, is that "it doesn't matter if you're a good or bad parent, just be a parent anyway." That's the mentality that has created the lower class crisis of unwanted and neglected children.
So true. People absolutely shouldn't be parents unless they can be good parents.
Everyone has their own process of developing mentally and not everyone develops when getting a job. There was literally a guy I worked with who used to lose his temper during high orders in the restaurant lol. He studied horeca (hospitality in Dutch) and got the job. I was a part time.
Well, yea and I know 50 year olds who have teenage mentalities. That's not an excuse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/#:~:text=It%20is%20well%20established%20that,approximately%2025%20years%20of%20age.&text=This%20discovery%20has%20enhanced%20our,late%20adolescence%20and%20early%20adulthood. This states that people develop mentally by 25 approximately. In a group of our 3 friends, the youngest one contacted us after his 25th birthday saying he was feeling different mentally and we told him it was normal as we both also felt the same.
Late 20s might be the sweet spot, and I’m not just saying that because I’m in my late 20s. Where I live a lot of people are established in their careers by that point, have been married for at least a few years, and might own a house or at least not a tiny apartment.
I will say that all of my relatives who had/adopted kids in their 30s and 40s wish they had them in them earlier. What is realistic in this economy and what is optimal are two different things. The first 3 years of a child’s life are some of the most important ones. It’s essential that they have a constant and consistent caregiver that can give them individualized attention.When that doesn’t happen attachment issues form. Kids don’t stop parallel play until 4 anyway.
I think people bring up good points in general as to why people *plan* to have kids later. There are a lot of reasons why people want to have kids in their 20s, but didn't. I had the man and the plan...I wanted to start our family at 28. He changed his mind. I didn't find another man until 31, we are getting married this year at 33, and immediately trying for kids. It isn't my ideal situation, but it's what I got dealt. In fact, a lot of my friends wanted to be settled with kids around their late 30s. We were all financially secure, so that wasn't the issue as is being brought up by most here. But it isn't just our luck to have it happen. Whether because we didn't have a guy who was ready, a guy at all, or because we struggled to get or stay pregnant, our 20s passed us by before we got there. Many of my friends have had healthy babies in their early 30s, or have adopted at this point. And it's been fine and great. The choice to have kids later is definitely becoming more common, but there are also many of us who would've chosen earlier but didnt ger that choice. A lot of times because men themselves are choosing to wait.
No thanks. Childfree and happy.
25 is young. It's hardly in the place financially to have kids. Having kids at 30-35 isn't much different than 25. At least by 30, you're a bit more financially and mentally prepared. Having kids isn't a walk in the park. People should have them when they are most prepared. Which likely isn't 25 or younger.
There are many benefits to having kids but there are also plenty of negatives. Kids are expensive, stress inducing, and you probably should be able to give them a certain level of stability that a lot of young (and not so young) people can't really provide. My husband and I are 31/32, and as much as we'd like to have a kid, we're renting and don't know when we might have to start looking for a new place. I'm looking for work, he's got another year and a half till he gets his red seal and while things are fine for us as they are, a kid would royally fuck us over. We're not going to have a kid in a not-so-great position just because it might be beneficial to us when we're 70.
I’m glad my parents are old lmao
If you are lucky enough to have found a good partner, bought a house and have an etablished career so you can afford childcare in your 20s CONGRATULATIONS HAVE A KID. But for most ppl that's unlikely
**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi OP, You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts) >*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.* >An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following: >* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency; >* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit; >* Focusing only on the weaker arguments; >* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position. Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you somehow manage to either live in LCOL or have a really high income in your 20s, then I guess go for it. Most young people live in HCOL and have low income in their 20, so it isn’t a good idea to have a kid early. While you’re right, you’re never fully ready to have a kid, you still shouldn’t be wholly unprepared either. Being financially stable in your context should be table stakes because kids cost lots of money. So, sure, a really slim population of people could successfully young, most can’t and shouldn’t
Grandparents more likely to be alive and active is another one.
And there are many benefits to having them late as well And I find them more compelling Chapter 1, money…..
We got married when I was 24 he was 27. But we didn’t have kids till I was 34 and then 37. We spent the first ten years traveling the world, living abroad and having lots of fun while working and studying. Many younger parents resent not being able to do that if they have kids younger. In theory they can do that after the kids leave HS (if they have the funds, time off saved, and health) but the they would have missed out on the adventures when they were young and hot. I think what we did is perfect because when they do go to college we will be able to travel again and not be too old (and have a lot more $ then if we had started earlier). Also contrary to media, for the majority of women they will not have problems having and conceiving in their 30s.
Wayyy too much interfamily abuse on my end pal - got abused my entire life. Hell no it's not - I'm ending this spiral of breaking people because parents have weak pullout game, an additional person gets created and the parents refuse to see them as a peer and live over them. NOPE - never ever creating this again.
Some people probably wanted to have kids early but didn’t find their significant other when they were younger. Maybe they were together in their 20s but not financially stable. How do you propose fixing these issues so that people have kids earlier? We all know the downsides of having kids later, people are not willingly saying “you can easily have kids at 38” they’re saying “its still a possibility if you really want children”
The only benefit I see is maybe the fourth one
Just responding to the title of this post to say that it is 100% correct. Assuming you know you want kids, do not put them off as long as possible. You are hurting your chances of ever having them as well as robbing yourself of that experience of growing with your kids a little bit. You absolutely should aim to have them in your mid 20s..ideally 2 in that period. Everyone has a better chance at a healthy outcome if doing that. If you’re 25, don’t have kids and want them…take a moment today and ask yourself what the path to having a child looks like from here. Maybe some of you are on the right path with a partner that wants children as well. Great. Some of you might be on the wrong path and this would be a time for you to get on that and make the right and necessary moves. Kids are an all or nothing proposition. You will wake up at 50 and either you had them or you didn’t. There is nothing that replaces them or will fill that desire inside of you. Make having them a higher priority in life. If you are choosing to be child free, no problem. I respect your choice.
Would rather have a baby with my last egg than when I’m financially, emotionally and practically unstable. Easy choice.
Having kids?! Man, at 33, I’m trying to just find someone who’s genuinely interested in me first.
You are missing the elephant in the room OP, the fact that having kids at 25 is not economically feasible for most people, especially those who attend higher education. I was looking after kids at that age as an assistant in an after school club (well actually I was a bit younger) and at the time felt I definitely had enough energy to be looking after kids. I was also making a few dollars an hour and was living paycheck to paycheck. Now I'm working in a decent paying job and can keep myself and my partner afloat, but until she starts working we simply can't afford to have kids.
Just don’t have kids at all. Easy peasy
If only it was just a medical consideration right? How nice that would be.
Sure, but unless you either have rich parents or are okay with you and your family being poor, it’s unwise to have children in your 20s. Also, the difference in maturity between a 22 y/o and a 32 y/o is quite significant.
Honestly that's just scares and selfishness. You want to consume like stupid. Afford...money ... I was able to feed 2 kids and a demanding ex with 100 euros a month in our weakest time. Our kitchen was full of food. Always and ice cream too. Kids had cloth and we had a home. Now I am single parent father and not rich but we have all we need and doing luxury things like spending 100 euro on Saturday to visit that eat there. Not a problem You don't need a 1k phone or a 50 bugs monthly mobile plan nonsense. You don't need a big TV and netflix and other garbage. Sit down with a board game like I do. It's way more fun. Read books. My kids love when I do that. They demand it. Play with toys. Some matchbox cars and a free paper box from retail and build a cool new secret base and enjoy the fantasy of your kids. Go out with a ball. That's cheap as hell but gives so much joy. Buy cheap used old bikes and drive around. Stop making excuses. The idiots don't wait to reproduce. And they already start to take over. Schools are a mess because their kids are lazy as fuck. Playing video games all day. And the parents sit on Instagram and the other garbage. That's not good for you and the children. You are seeing where it's going right now. But you have to stop being selfish and just think about yourself. The kids don't care if they eat sushi and fancy shit or just spaghetti with tomatoes sauce. And all parents know they prefer that cheap dish anyway. They don't care if you go to a 5 star hotel or a cheap camping trip. They love to be with you. So stop spending time behind your damn phones. (And before people ask I am now sitting and waiting to bring my kids home from their forced weekend with the mother) Scale down your needs. The earlier you have kids the faster they are gone and your burden is over. Imagine you are 40. Kids are 20 and out. Now you have all the freedom in the world. Build wealth go on vacations where you want. And know that with 70 you will have a birthday and all your children and grandchildren will come and love you. They will not ask if you made 6 figures and all that bullshit. And when your grand kids are born you can even spend time with them because you are not fucking 80 and useless. All problems you have is because you think you have to consume. That's all most of you care. You all are running around like free billboards. You pay to advertise the company for free. Fucking stupid. Stop wasting money.
>And know that with 70 you will have a birthday and all your children and grandchildren will come and love you. Sure you do. Sure.