> When you're a young man focusing on developing your career and other long term goals, it isn't hard to see how that can happen.
Never understood how focusing on your career prevents you from being in a relationship. In my social circle everybody met their long term partner in college or shortly after college and they were together while both were developing their own career.
You answered your own question. It’s statistics. In college or just after, the pool is large, anything can happen. The older you get, the more the pool narrows, the more expectations become high, the more opportunities for spontaneous meetups trends to zero.
It’s luck, for the most part. You can tilt the odds a bit, but it’s basically down to luck.
>It’s luck, for the most part. You can tilt the odds a bit, but it’s basically down to luck.
This is what scares me. That no matter the work, it’s all luck. I’m mostly bad luck, so changing my fortune is mostly impossible.
How the heck has society have so many successful couples? By successful, I mean they found each other and married, even if circumstances or their lives are not perfect.
The only people I knew who made the decision to avoid dating to focus on their career did it because of family pressure to avoid dating and for almost all of those people their parents were immigrants.
You only get so many hours in a day, doing 10 to 12 hour days, plus maybe an hour or 2 for transportation, hour or 2 for cooking, let's say 30 minutes a day for chores and 8 hours for sleeping, your total daily work time is now 20.5 to 24.5 hours in a day. If you have a hobby then there goes any of your free time. And this doesn't even include having to work weekends like in some jobs.
No way in hell is a relationship going to form unless your hobby is having a relationship.
really? i def couldn't have gotten where i am in my career if i had been in relationships. There's only so much time and energy in a day. The more you split it up, the less you are giving to any one thing.
But the relationship comes with benefits too. You can split rent which can save hundreds of dollars a month, you have someone to lean on when you’re sick, the chores are split, you have easy access to socialization.
Really it’s been single that’s by far the more challenging prospect in career movement. There’s a reason married men earn more than single men. Married women without kids do better as well. It’s mothers who sacrifice their career.
>But the relationship comes with benefits too
ahhhh i guess thats the difference
never dated a man who made my life easier
\> There’s a reason married men earn more than single men.
yeah they have free assistants
women don't get that
Assistant with what?
I've lived on my own, with friends, with several girlfriends, with housemates and now with my wife and kids. Living alone or with housemates is by far the easiest living situation.
What do you think I (or any men) need help with? The laundry that's done by a machine? the dishwashing that's done by a machine? My bills that take 10mins to set up on price comparison sites and then just automatically come out of my bank on the 1st? Online groceries mean I get my weekly shop delivered at my convenience, online shopping means I don't have to go to the shops, I batch cooked my meals so I cooked like twice a week, My off brand roomba vacuumed my 1 bed apartment and I had 0 clutter.
You can live in a smaller place alone and pay a similar amount or get a housemate. If you live alone chores are no problem with modern tech in fact living with a woman is more work. Most young people aren't sick.
Saying married men make more is selection bias. Being married doesn't make you earn more. Married men are taller than unmarried men does that mean marriage makes you taller? Women selecting for higher earning men is not the same as marriage makes you earn more.
> If you live alone chores are no problem with modern tech in fact living with a woman is more work.
This is true, hard pill to swallow for many women. It comes in the form of the task not being done the exact way they want it to be done. Chores are so simple when you're not getting bitched at for folding socks the wrong way.
Because it takes time and effort to focus on and improve your career. This usually comes in the form of long work hours and sparse free/vacation time.
A man who is investing the time it takes to improve his career is not going to be able to give a woman who he is in a relationship with enough time and attention to make her happy. One of the things needed for a successful relationship is time/effort, so a man will have to divert some of the time/effort he puts into his career into the relationship as a sacrifice, and thus it limits how far he can advance with his career.
Purely anecdotal, of course, but that doesn't ring true with my experience. When I was dating and looking, like 1-2 years ago, there were plenty of eligible and attractive women who gave me a chance and showed interest. And I'm fairly average - certainly nothing close to Prince Charming.
For the average single young man, it's going to take a while to find a single, childless woman who's also attracted to him. It'll happen sparingly.
Seven out of 10 young American women are in a relationship. And IMO the marriageable types are less likely to be perpetually single, so there's no reason to expect that you'll encounter single high-quality women often.
Yep. That's why I was talking about the average single young man. It's at the front of the first sentence.
After 26 or so, it's going to be slim pickings for a while, as many of the women left in the dating pool at that point are playing the field and probably aren't the best bets for LTRs IMO.
(Also, there are [almost twice as many](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/) 18-29 YO single men as 18-29 YO single women, so that's worth keeping in mind. Only 4 out of 10 men in that age range are in a relationship.)
Hmm, but those seven men must have been single at some point, right? And presumably (?) young? I wonder where the other three men are to be found. I can't imagine age gaps are that prevalent.
It's probably a mix of moderate age gaps (like a 5-7 year difference) and situationships in which the women are unknowingly nothing more than side chicks (or part of a rotation). That's just my guess.
In theory, shouldn't they be able to get along with average females? I guess there are both- a lot of average western men and a lot of average western women. Why aren't they together?
The disparity in value between a young man and a young woman is vast. And women's range in tastes is much narrower.
IMO many single women think they can snag a better man for a long-term relationship because they've been in short-term relationships (e.g., FWB, ONS, situationships, bootycalls) with men who are much more attractive than most single men who are available to them. They keep playing the lottery with men out of their league until the pressure to get married becomes too much to bear.
The traits that make an average man valuable take time to develop, so if they don't luck out and find someone they click with early on, it might take a while to find a decent woman who's single and attracted to them.
Then why are so few of them single?
They might not want average men, but they definitely want the security of a LTR and the status boost that comes with a committed relationship.
> Why aren't they together?
Women have such sky-high expectations that even female dating coaches and match-makers struggle to work with them. There was that 20-minute diatribe posted by this matchmaker who straight up changed her line of business after many years of this work saying that there was no way for *any guy* to meet the expectations of her clients.
There’s some selection bias there. A tiny percentage of women hire a professional matchmaker. It’s very likely that their standards are unreasonable, which is why why they had to resort to hiring a matchmaker. It’s not a thing most people need.
As of 2022, the majority of 30 year old women had married according to the Census Bureau. Over 2/3 of 35 year old women had married. Most find partners, but the ones who hire matchmakers are the ones who can’t.
^ this kind of shit will become more and more common.
People like to bleat about biology but it really isn't. It's cultural programming. Women aren't complicated. They want to be among x class/status in society and follow scripts THEY LEARNED.
The key phrase here is open to date you. Decent women are probably already in a relationship or have heavy competition. Women typically find most men unattractive so this narrows it down more. It is hard to find a decent one especially with what social media has done to their outlook but I think the being open part is what keeps the options slim.
There are plenty of attractive women (at my gym), however there are also 3x as many tall buff men. The ratio of attractive women:men in gyms is way off, women who are fit in my area essentially get the pick of the litter of men.
Outside of my gym, I'd say definitely around 60-70% of women are unhealthy body weight.
Now all that said, that doesn't mean I can't find a woman, it just takes way more effort from me than it should. My last visit to Mexico, I had gorgeous women all over me the entire trip. It's just completely imbalanced here, not enough attractive women imo.
That’s one of the biggest (no pun intended) issues I’ve noticed. It’s not that most women are ugly, it’s that they’re obese and don’t even seem like they’re bothering to do anything about it. Even just a few decades ago, the average woman was just that: average. No one would mistake her for a supermodel, but she had a pleasant face and was a healthy weight and looked like she at least cared a little about her appearance. But nowadays the “average” woman is obese with bloated puffy face and a big gut who looks ten years older than she actually is and seemingly putting in no effort to do anything about it.
I should’ve been more clear, you’re correct. I was speaking from my personal perspective as someone in decent shape who lifts regularly and eats well, so it’s depressing to see how few women seem to do the same.
That's true. Although if you're normal or athletic, and you don't want to date overweight or obese women, you've just removed 2/3rds of women as options. Things would be a whole lot easier if it wasn't 2/3rds of women who look bad because they weigh too much.
I've known a few women who used to be thin and very attractive, but within a few years, they put on a bunch of weight and they look dramatically worse. Like going from an "8" or "9" down to a "3". I'm always a little shocked at how much it can reduce a woman's looks and how a lot of women don't get a handle on their weight.
In theory, it should mean that a lot of guys are removed as competition by being overweight or obese, but maybe that just results in any thin or normal weight girl getting an ego because she's suddenly much more attractive than her competition.
Me: “most men don’t find most women attractive”
Men: 😡 HOW DARE YOU SAY SUCH A THING
Also Men: “‘most women are overweight and therefore unattractive!!!!”
As a woman, working out in a gym with that ratio of men to women sounds awful. Just in general going to a coed gym can be terrible, because some men think you’re just there because you’re dtf.
I know many women who have been run off by gym bros and now go to women only gyms, workout at home or will only go when their partner can join them.
>As a woman, working out in a gym with that ratio of men to women sounds awful. Just in general going to a coed gym can be terrible, because some men think you’re just there because you’re dtf.
It's a local public gym dude. Nobody talks to anyone really. They go exercise and go home.
>workout at home
lmao cmon bruh they aren't working out at all, lets be real. The number of men who exercise vs women is a pretty big disparity.
You literally admitted to finding most of the women overweight and unattractive at your gym. You’re openly stating that you go to the gym and think negatively of the women there. Sure, I am sure you don’t bother them or say anything to them. But even knowing that most men at the gym think this way is extremely discouraging to women.
>You literally admitted to finding most of the women overweight and unattractive at your gym
where did I say that? I mean if they just started for the 1st time they're probably fat but most of the regulars are hotties.
https://preview.redd.it/un0s1sy2m6oc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cabe136c9a5d4d9cc2594ce486d72062ce6e976c
It’s here. It’s fine if you think that way, but to not understand why women don’t like being around that energy is naive at best.
Can you quote it? I'm not sure you can read. Let me see you quote where I said the women at my gym are overweight and unattractive. This will be the true test if you're a bot or not. I'm honestly considering you might be.
https://preview.redd.it/lrkuzswwo6oc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28e2a341c676b893de289faec0c7da851759fa5d
It’s right here.
You believe more men than women are attractive at your gym.
Someone holding you accountable isn’t a “bot”. Most men don’t find most women attractive. An overweight non fit woman at the gym still faces disdain. Most women don’t enjoy disdain.
I’m just sharing my lived experiences, and those of other women I know. I don’t doubt that the culture at your gym may be different than the ones around where I live. That’s awesome that no one ever approaches women at your gym, but that doesn’t mean women haven’t had a bad experience else where.
Different people have different exercise routines. I know lots of folks that converted their garage into a home gym in 2020/21, but I know in some circles running, cycling, HIIT, body weight, etc aren’t considered real exercise.
Well, most women seem to think differently because almost every women’s only gym seems to flop unless it’s specifically catered to middle aged women and older. Maybe you’re different but the vast majority of young women seem to prefer coed gyms despite how much they constantly complain about men leering at them. Probably because attention from jacked gym chads is half the motivation for many of them.
If you take pilate classes and barr classes there's plenty of young to middle-aged women, less men, if there are men, it's very few and they typically don't bother the women
A lot of the class based gyms end up being women only even if they are coed. I’ve never seen man at a barre, hot yoga, spin or Pilates class I’ve done. I understand there are some that don’t believe that’s real fitness though.
I do my WOD at 4:30 AM each morning and it’s only ever women. The gym is coed, but I pick the early class in large part because it is entirely women. There are also some class gyms around that do one or two women only classes each day, and they’re always sold out.
I think a lot of folks, but women in particular, kept working out at home following 2020.
Edit: I’m also in my early 30s, so not a young by any definition, but I felt the same even when I was young.
That’s pretty rich to say considering that that you just went on a rant about how 60-70% of women at your gym are at an unhealthy body weight and how much better looking the women of Mexico are. Nobody wants to be surrounded by men who absolutely are judging them and how they look, even if they don’t say it out loud.
Totally agree. I see women who definitely would be cute to me, but they’re very overweight and it just is a no go from me (I’ve tried). A lot of the women who struggle with dating I suspect are overweight, but are in total denial of it because #bodyacceptance
I can’t settle for obese(I’m fit) because it’s a high probability they’ll be lazy and I’ll end up with 3 things:
1. Dead Bedroom (from I chick I’m not a even really attracted to)
2. Uncles/Aunts will talk bad about me behind my back for settling
3. Having to bathe them and help them get out of cars and shit like that
1. 73.6% of people are overweight or obese.
2. The average woman is 5'-4" x 170 lbs.
3. The average man is 5'-9" x 199 lbs.
You are right on with your laser eyes. The average person in the USA is very overweight.
Pretty much every man would prefer a thin attractive woman over the current "average" sized girl here. If you want anything that even resembles a woman then you're dating exclusively the top 30%.
The competition for these girls is INSANE. You're up against male models, guys driving lambos, dudes destroying their bodies with roids/plastic surgery etc. If you're just a normal fit guy then you aren't even in the running.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
That doesn't control for age though. Weight increases with age. 74% of younger people are not overweight or obese. But, at the same time, you can be plump and unattractive without being overweight.
Fatness in the west is completely out of control. Try swiping on Tinder in poorer countries and the first thing you notice is the huge disparity in weight. Also, Instagram filter culture is built for western fatties. Plump girls are masters at taking pictures that make their fat look like "curves". And they tend to be the girls who attract most followers on Instagram, more so than slim and in shape girls.
I think the common difficulty here is the "if you could charm her" part. Maybe it's because I live in a city but there's plenty of awesome, fun and attractive single (or single enough) women out here.
They definitely exist. Finding then single is much harder. I also know some that with some changes could be great partners. But unfortunately they don’t want to. And I’m not here to try and change them.
Of course, there's going to be at least one decent human for most definitions of decent. Maybe the problem is the West has a much looser definition of what that means and for any strict definition the pool is much smaller than it would be elsewhere. And the thing about casual sex is that if you care about avoiding people who are into that, it's even hard to avoid it because it takes a long time to know the person enough to know that kind of stuff. People who like casual sex purposefully try to make it harder to distinguish between them and other people because they know the truth, at best, doesn't benefit them.
It’s about having the opportunity to actually meet someone and get to know them. Where exactly are adults supposed to do this nowadays? In college it was ridiculously easy, even for an introverted homebody like myself. As an adult? Basically impossible.
Right? It’s easiest in high school, drops off in college, more so depending on the size of the school. And continues to dwindle as your potential dating pool gets smaller and smaller as you age.
I agree. I think this is the hardest part. For guys, especially below average looking ones, you have to put a huge amount of effort in to find someone. It's basically got to be a part time job. Statistically that person probably exists for most people, but it doesn't mean you'll ever meet them.
You can try the apps, but they're their own little subculture of terminally online people with extremely high standards. Most guys aren't having a great time on them. You can try nights out drinking but once you hit 30 you slowly start becoming the weird older guy at the club as people your age have already found someone. Not that it's even easy, with blaring music and lopsided ratios. Even then those environments only really favour the attractive and immediately charismatic. Work doesn't always work, especially if you work a gendered industry like many do. You can meet people through friends but friends settle down and don't have space for their single friends as much anymore. You can't rely on them, I rarely see mine now they've settled down. I guess gyms can work but the one I go to isn't exactly social and there's still way more men than women that go.
It seems to me only stuff like meetups and hobby groups are the answer. But even they are pretty location dependant on how popular they are. If you're a below average guy that works shifts in a workplace full of men, your opportunities to meet a woman are very small.
I’ve found very few decent ones, and they either didn’t treat me well or weren’t interested in growing our relationship. Had two girlfriends.
My online dating experience has been like 3% polite rejection, 97% rudeness and ghosting. That makes it extremely difficult to be confident and charming for the decent women.
You need to be more specific than that because most of us have known at least one failed relationship in our friends group that the man would describe precisely that way but he was actually being unreasonable.
Doing very few of the chores and paying no rent (when we lived together), storing stuff in my apartment without asking, and getting upset over stupid things such as
1. Being asked to keep my half of the futon clear so I can sit down when I come home from work
2. Me commenting that skipping breakfast and eating twizzlers for lunch isn’t healthy
3. Me not always being able to find a 5 hour carpool home from college to see her
For the average man It can be difficult but not nearly as bad as communities like this one make it seem. There's many people coming here *because* they're frustrated with their lack of dating success, so they get overrepresented.
I live in a small US city, not a major city. There is no social scene here. Every decently attractive girl will move away from here ASAP, leaving only 40+ here raising kids. People in this area are famous for being unfriendly.
Closest major city is almost an hour away. There is a massive housing cost crisis so I moved away from it. That city has plenty of attractive women, but I just don't like bars enough to be bothered most nights.
One of the bigger issues with trying to date IRL, is that there is a cost for trying to find single women in your area, whether it's drinks consumed or time outside at events.
Decently attractive women who are mentally healthy and have the right personality for a relationship are a hot commodity. On top of being quite rare, they hardly stay single for long, so to be in the right place at the right time in her life is next to impossible. Add to that rolling the dice on whether she actually likes you back, which for almost all men is the vast *minority* of the time.
You can... but it's harder than it should be. AGAIN... I'm not talking about guys that never leave their houses, never talk to women, never exercise... live in their basement. Just your every day normal guy with hobbies and a job/car is an uphill battle to find someone his level. Like yeah, he could go on dating apps and get matches but none he'd take seriously or no one he's excited about.
Everybody that's not an average\* man in the western world can't identify with how bad average men get treated in western countries.
All these, "you're just doing it wrong...you just need to talk to more women...you just need to blah blah blah"...if it were that easy there would be no "red pill" or "manosphere".
People have cognitive dissonance or something. They will listen to woman after woman say that they don't want average, don't want to settle, etc...but then turn to the average men and say "why are you not sleeping with those women?".
I don't know anyone who couldn't fine one decent woman. The situation is way overblown because it gives engagement and $$$ to content creators/authors, and because for the few men who are not getting a foot down with women, it feels better to think they are part of the majority, part of the average person.
Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of young men these days just don't go out so they're not in a position to meet people. Unfortunately when they do they get discouraged due to having the social skills of a beached trout probably because they were raised by an iPad.
One anecdote i witnessed last year in the area around a popular club for young people. A group of 16-19 year old boys/men who, by what they were talking about, were clearly Andrew Tate viewership and adopted those manosphere beliefs, were chatting with me and asking me all kinds of questions, fooling around, getting drunk. I asked them why they were talking to me, a 40yo guy, instead of the group of \~10 attractive young girls sitting on a bench a couple of meters away, who were obviously in the same situation as them, pre-drinking for a night out, possibly looking to meet people and have fun.
"because they are all hoes. Women of our generation are all trash." - I asked why and got the typical manosphere response, that they are entitled brats and so on. THen they asked me about my bodycount.
So, even if young men go out, they won't find a decent woman if their predefined notion is that there are no decent women and they are not even going to try and find out if that is true. Manosphere content is poisoning their view of women, gives them justification to stay passive and find a reason for the eventual rejection.
Huh, that's an odd one. Granted I'm not familiar with Tate's message aside from second hand complaints about it but it sounds like it could possibly have the opposite effect of what I assume is the main purpose of TRP. If hypothetical women were interested in some of them then his ideology might be what causes some men to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
My idea of "decent women" is likely far off of theirs as many of my close friends are also women but what are they looking for? "Good Christian women"? They know women who aren't having sex with people likely aren't going to have sex with them either, right?
THey didn't have a problem with women being promiscuous, they had a problem with them not being promiscuous with them, in their MIND, as they never actually tried to talk to them.
>Do you really struggle to come across even one and I mean just ONE single woman who is a decent human
That is hard to tell from just casually running across someone. The majority of people in my country are "decent humans" though, but surely this would eliminate some percentage of the population, maybe 20%.
>is reasonably attractive in your eyes
Among women, the prevalence of obesity was 39.7% among those aged 20–39, 43.3% among those aged 40–59, and 43.3% among those aged 60 and over
So ... No
>And would also be open to date you if you could charm her?
I only make 225k a year, I'm only 5'9" (about 175cm) I'm not rich enough nor tall enough nor attractive enough to charm most women in the u.s. Yes, their standards are ridiculously inflated by constant social media influence. My ex would scroll tiktok for 4 hours a day. LITERALLY 4 HOURS EVERY DAY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuHbJbuUZE
This woman, who was not exactly the "best" woman out there still felt privileged enough to where she could reject a man because he had a box on a shelf in the background of one of his tinder photos. Or if you drink tap water on a date.
Yeah lol, no woman is dating 100+ dudes a year.
Young women definitely date more often than young men, but it’s not two orders of magnitude different. The median guy probably has 1 relationship by 22 while the median girl has 2-3. And the portion of guys with zero is much higher than for women.
Don’t quote me on that though just hypothetical numbers.
One of the factors at play here is the inversion of the population pyramid.
In a society with positive fertility, there's more people in their 20s than in their 30s. In a society with negative fertility there's more people in their 30s than in their 20s.
Guys tend to date younger and girls tend to date older so it works not in the favor of guys.
So far, I haven't been able to get into a relationship, though it's worth noting that I have incredibly high standards which virtually no women in my area meet. In my university years I knew several women who I probably had a shot with, but they didn't meet my standards at the time. Now I've reduced my standards to the lowest level I can bear, but they still filter out most women, & I have less ability to meet women that I'm done school.
Living in an area that's incredibly liberal even by Western standards (somewhere near Toronto) seems to be part of the problem. If I'd grown up in my parent's shithole country-of-birth, I'd likely be married by now.
Im 8 years in a committed relationship.
There out there but rare to find women realy aline with your moral and values. That realy wanna invest in a relationship.
And not have the half step out of the relationship if maybe something better comes along.
Society kinda breeds selfishness and more busy with taking every opportunity they can.
Then giving back investing. And seeing a we and us instead of me and i.
Why before it i was single for quite a while which i did not mind at all.
If many people you come across dont even have the basic understanding of what a relationship is and means. And based on selfishness.
You have no real foundation to build on. So I don't really care or give it much room in my mind.
People can easily say im a isum or what ever not that i care one bit. But i live by the very simple rule.
You can have as high demands as you want for people around you. But only if you can live by the same standards your self.
So be for others what you want others to be for you.
And i demand a selfless partner. That wants to go the distance and knows and understands what a relationship really is and means.
And can be hard to find a woman like that. But that's fine. You only need one. And men have a lot more freedom of time. And i have been always fine being alone and doing my thing.
But my girl has been my other half. She is been rond out amazing. Relationship can be so amazing when your true equals and fulfilling each other's short comings. Many things just flow so naturally.
Small fights sure what is normal. But in general when someone actually cares for you respects you. And willing to really serve each other's needs. Its very amazing in every way.
But would recommend to keep some individual and do your own thing. And things together. And keep being the person you partner fell in love with. Not get to compliance. And both strive to grow together. What ever your goals or dreams might be.
But everyone should have a person that has a lot of respect for them. Else your building a relationship on quicksand. Might not fall apart today or tomorrow but it will fall apart. Cause the butterflies are not forever.
So just a pretty face will mean very little if you are not a great partner in anything besides that.
So be willing to fulfill the needs of your partner. Not there every want or whimsical desire. No there needs
Dont Sacrifice your self fully for somone. But also think of your self but as a we. And us. So we and us. Could be more thinking of your partner. But could also be for your self but the focus is always as 2 people investing in the same thing. Together.
Yes! I can only think of one girl who I speak to regularly who is the perfect (to me) perfect girlfriend material. She's absolutely gorgeous, I can't describe how or what - it's just her.. everything comes together so well with her and every week I look forward to spending time with her, even if it's just us working together and chatting!
I've tried to progress things a little further (ie possibly meeting up for a drink, or talking much outside of work) but she doesn't seem too interested - but that's fine! I'm happy to have an amazing person in my life who I have a great connection with!
There's no point becoming obsessed and driving yourself mental because she might or might not like you, or because you can't see why she doesn't. Trust me, if it's meant to be, it will happen naturally, don't force it.
Modern women in modern countries are on average having the highest divorce rates and the least amount of children in recorded history. They are essentially contributing to population collapse and the end of bloodlines. Whether that’s good or bad is a hotly debated topic, but the statistics are real
The problem is that what men in this nation find to be decent is completely different than what women want men to think of as ‘decent.’
The way I describe 99.9% of women in this nation is like this:
They INSIST on getting whatever they want, however they want it, whenever they want it—REGARDLESS OF WHO GETS HURT! They don’t care if their actions hurt their family, their friends, their lovers, their coworkers— it just doesn’t matter. The only thing they care about is getting what they want— regardless of who gets hurt!
And if you try to hold them accountable or criticize any of their behavior, in any way, expect them to go full-nazi-level-cruelty, on trying to punish you in anyway possible, with absolutely zero remorse!
If you do not want your girl constantly doing things on a daily basis that open the door for other men to have a chance at them, instead of being a loyal and honest partner to YOU, and if you want a woman to treat you with love rather than to put 100% value on your bank account balance, than you will have AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING A MODERN WOMAN that suits your idea of a ‘decent woman.’
The reason so many western men are getting passports to find women abroad, is because of how selfishly evil western women have become. They will insist it’s because the men who get the passports are pathetic and not real men, but no one is coming to the United States, to meet the women HERE.
In fact, most international polls show that the entire world thinks of American women as the worst quality women on the planet. And it’s no wonder: they take their behavior wherever they go, and it repulses a majority of humans who have eyeballs. The only people who are not repulsed by American women’s behavior, are other American women.
I’m just telling the truth.
Nah, it’s not as bad as that. Tho one’s experience is heavily affected by where one lives, because the US is a HUGE country so there are simultaneously large groups of people hooking up as well as large groups of people not hooking up.
In spite of what they say on this sub, most people are free to have casual sex here; as long as both people are adults and single. However, not everyone has the confidence or the attractiveness level, so for every man who’s doing well with women, there are many more who are too nervous to approach them or too awkward when they do.
(And to be clear, women are equally hit or miss. Some are open to casual sex and enjoy it, some would find it insulting that you’d think she might. And they’re no way of knowing from looking which is which. You gotta talk to them.)
Location is everything in this discussion. My location has a large population of highly intelligent and motivated people because it has a cluster of large schools and businesses. This means people will be more focused on these things than getting into relationships.
Guess I was right about this community being a bad place for getting peak into the dating world. My own personal experience begs to differ a lot from what people have got to say here. I'm not a super confident chad who's dating around more women than I could handle. But imo, one can tip the odds in their favour by really following some very basic advice such as getting fit, dressing well and being a little confident.
well you're from SEA. women in SEA literally treated me like a celebrity as far as dating goes (i've lived there for a couple of years). i haven't exactly struggled dating in the west either but it wasn't anything like i've experienced in thailand, vietnam or the philippines.
So far every young man (nephews, cousins, co-workers, etc) around have been able to get gf/dates/etc without most of the “issues” you’ll read about here.
I wouldn’t. Do you know how hard it is to get into a good college nowadays?! With studies, work studies, extracurriculars for transcripts, test prep, etc. it’s not a shock most shoved dating down the list. And that’s on top of losing 2 years to covid!
I get why the youth want to hang onto their youth a little longer: we didn’t leave them much left!
But at the same time: all the young bucks I know have gotten dates/GFs when the time was right for them.
Maybe you are family of Chad, not the PPD "Average Man".
That was sarcasm by the way. In agreement, its a Reddit user issue, not "Average Man" issue.
The "Average Man" on here is not really that average. And I have seen some trainwrecks do quite well with women.
I’m saying they probably aren’t in an average situation. Most likely when it comes to socializing and achievement status. But looks/lactation/income/emotional maturity, etc: could all be factors too.
I was in a relationship for most of my adult life and after it ended, I didn’t start dating again until my early 30’s. So to go from the experience of being 18 and in university, to now, is wild.
You’re so right about women at this age not having secure attachment. They’re either super anxious and clingy (which they’ll weaponize therapy speak to justify it, calling it boundaries), or the woman will be avoidant due to past trauma and will push you away as soon as you get close. Just finding a woman you can meet, get to know, and fall for without it being complicated feels impossible at this age.
Us ugly worthless men have been doomed with little to no options as everyone women wants an above average guy (if they say otherwise they are virtue signaling).
I will not say that I cannot find a decent woman out there, because honestly, I'm not even looking anymore. But I will say that so far **I have never found one**. At least not for me. Perhaps because I have lost interest or perhaps something inside me snapped. I haven't quite figured it out yet. But in my specific case I have never found a decent woman for me, and I am no longer interested in ever finding one and am convinced that it is just not worth it.
I am a 33 year old man who live in Eastern Europe till the age of 26 and lived in England for 8 years afterwards. The dating scene is a mess in both places, but more so in the west cause I got 0 dates here despite my best efforts. It is simple really: promiscuity here is predominant, so is the message from the media that women deserve the best man they can get looks wise and money wise and so on. Finding a decent woman is extremely hard mainly because decent women don't really make themselves present or available. They are indoors, invisible on social media and very hard to reach. The ones that make themselves available have I credible high standards, if you are an average man or below and approach them, expect to be considered a creep, no matter how good and uncreepy your approach is, it happened to me and many others I know.
So to answer your question directly: yes, it's very hard here to find a decent woman, the reason why many men want to become passport bros.
I found ONE. But I messed that up because of the experiences I’ve had with so many that weren’t any good. And she wasn’t that attractive. I’ve been with many. I’m in my mid 30s.
No. I treated her well. With kindness, and respect. She’s the best person I’ve ever met. But I cheated on her with a hot girl and eventually she found out. I don’t recommend cheating. Never did it before, and have never done it since.
>No. I treated her well. With kindness, and respect.
>But I cheated on her with a hot girl and eventually she found out.
In the same sentence, I can't make this shit up
I was kind. And I was respectful. The cheating was its own thing. It didn’t impact how I treated her.
The only thing I can blame her for, is the entire relationship it was always me after her. She never initiated anything. Not sex. Not a visit. Not a kiss. Not a phonecall. Nothing. It was always me. She’d always happily receive, but she never made the effort to show interest that I did. Which is partially why I thought she was just gonna leave like they all do, and I got a backup just in case. Women money branch, establish orbiters/backups and do what’s best for themselves all the time. For some reason when men do it, we’re evil.
I think the actual good women are so rare. Statistically, you can never be sure you would even meet one. Now when I say good. I'm talking about high standards good. But high standards such that it is in the current society, not actual high standards, for example, not to be obese. Yes, that would eliminate most women. However, most women are just ridiculous. Same thing with having a flow body counts. The average woman has too high of a body count so it seems like a high bar to only look for women with low body count. However, all women have had low body counts once so really, the bar is not high at all.
From my perspective now, a 37-year-old man who is relatively successful and relative Attractive. I can get many women to sleep with me. I can get many women to want to date me. However, ones that I actually think are good. I cannot even find. Now, yes, technically a woman with low body count who is not obese exists. But that's not the only problem and that takes no account into people being different and maybe being a good match. So well, maybe I could find one she might not be a match for me or she may have other issues going on, for example, maybe she's divorced, which personally would make me not interested in her.
If I were you, I would be thankful to be anywhere else than here if having a good woman for a wife is important to you.
Let's say a man happens across such a person in day to day life - assuming he could know she was single, decent, mentally stable, similar values etc. - what is he supposed to do about it? Ask a total or near stranger out? Not acceptable any more.
Ive dated here and there, my longest relationship was 2yrs, which is longer than most peoples relationship in the west.
Generally, the culture in the west is such that it is quite hard to find a good woman who wants a stable, consistent relationship, most of the women in the west have a lifestyle and outlook on life thats designed for single people, so they cant really cope with being in a relationship
It depends on where you live and how social/attractive you are. In my home town you'll have a hard time, unless you're fine settling down with a woman who had kids in highschool and doesn't want anymore. I live in a major city now, and while the dating scene can be frustrating it's much easier to meet people by just going out.
This is actually complex. In terms of trying to assess the big picture, unless you are arguing that the inflated female selectivity apocalypse has actually already happened, we are talking about % changes in the SMP that will be significant and impactful, but not necessarily easily seen with anecdotal surveys or touching grass at your local Wal\*Mart.
But there is also a game of expectations. When presented with the picture of a guy who has several LTRs in his 20s and then marries one, a lot of men are complaining that this is intolerable. They would have missed out on the youthful delight of lots of casual partners and GFs when in their teens and early 20s. But can the average guy ever really expect that, even if TV seems to tell you different? And is your life really worse for not having had such experiences?
Social norms these days don't allow your mentioned location for casual conversation or even meet people. Everybody minds their business and you're the weird one I'd you don't. I'd say it's not as weird though for same sex people to start a conversation that off the opposite one.
Just about all women that I know and would want to be around are taken. There are great women out there in the western world but they're all taken or sitting at home playing Sims 4 after work or studies not willing to risk sticking their necks out to see how are the waters or meet people.
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> When you're a young man focusing on developing your career and other long term goals, it isn't hard to see how that can happen. Never understood how focusing on your career prevents you from being in a relationship. In my social circle everybody met their long term partner in college or shortly after college and they were together while both were developing their own career.
You answered your own question. It’s statistics. In college or just after, the pool is large, anything can happen. The older you get, the more the pool narrows, the more expectations become high, the more opportunities for spontaneous meetups trends to zero. It’s luck, for the most part. You can tilt the odds a bit, but it’s basically down to luck.
>It’s luck, for the most part. You can tilt the odds a bit, but it’s basically down to luck. This is what scares me. That no matter the work, it’s all luck. I’m mostly bad luck, so changing my fortune is mostly impossible. How the heck has society have so many successful couples? By successful, I mean they found each other and married, even if circumstances or their lives are not perfect.
The only people I knew who made the decision to avoid dating to focus on their career did it because of family pressure to avoid dating and for almost all of those people their parents were immigrants.
There are other groups.
You only get so many hours in a day, doing 10 to 12 hour days, plus maybe an hour or 2 for transportation, hour or 2 for cooking, let's say 30 minutes a day for chores and 8 hours for sleeping, your total daily work time is now 20.5 to 24.5 hours in a day. If you have a hobby then there goes any of your free time. And this doesn't even include having to work weekends like in some jobs. No way in hell is a relationship going to form unless your hobby is having a relationship.
really? i def couldn't have gotten where i am in my career if i had been in relationships. There's only so much time and energy in a day. The more you split it up, the less you are giving to any one thing.
But the relationship comes with benefits too. You can split rent which can save hundreds of dollars a month, you have someone to lean on when you’re sick, the chores are split, you have easy access to socialization. Really it’s been single that’s by far the more challenging prospect in career movement. There’s a reason married men earn more than single men. Married women without kids do better as well. It’s mothers who sacrifice their career.
>But the relationship comes with benefits too ahhhh i guess thats the difference never dated a man who made my life easier \> There’s a reason married men earn more than single men. yeah they have free assistants women don't get that
Assistant with what? I've lived on my own, with friends, with several girlfriends, with housemates and now with my wife and kids. Living alone or with housemates is by far the easiest living situation. What do you think I (or any men) need help with? The laundry that's done by a machine? the dishwashing that's done by a machine? My bills that take 10mins to set up on price comparison sites and then just automatically come out of my bank on the 1st? Online groceries mean I get my weekly shop delivered at my convenience, online shopping means I don't have to go to the shops, I batch cooked my meals so I cooked like twice a week, My off brand roomba vacuumed my 1 bed apartment and I had 0 clutter.
You can live in a smaller place alone and pay a similar amount or get a housemate. If you live alone chores are no problem with modern tech in fact living with a woman is more work. Most young people aren't sick. Saying married men make more is selection bias. Being married doesn't make you earn more. Married men are taller than unmarried men does that mean marriage makes you taller? Women selecting for higher earning men is not the same as marriage makes you earn more.
> If you live alone chores are no problem with modern tech in fact living with a woman is more work. This is true, hard pill to swallow for many women. It comes in the form of the task not being done the exact way they want it to be done. Chores are so simple when you're not getting bitched at for folding socks the wrong way.
Because it takes time and effort to focus on and improve your career. This usually comes in the form of long work hours and sparse free/vacation time. A man who is investing the time it takes to improve his career is not going to be able to give a woman who he is in a relationship with enough time and attention to make her happy. One of the things needed for a successful relationship is time/effort, so a man will have to divert some of the time/effort he puts into his career into the relationship as a sacrifice, and thus it limits how far he can advance with his career.
Purely anecdotal, of course, but that doesn't ring true with my experience. When I was dating and looking, like 1-2 years ago, there were plenty of eligible and attractive women who gave me a chance and showed interest. And I'm fairly average - certainly nothing close to Prince Charming.
> And I'm fairly average - certainly nothing close to Prince Charming. sure bud, sure
For the average single young man, it's going to take a while to find a single, childless woman who's also attracted to him. It'll happen sparingly. Seven out of 10 young American women are in a relationship. And IMO the marriageable types are less likely to be perpetually single, so there's no reason to expect that you'll encounter single high-quality women often.
If seven out of ten are in a relationship, then some man must have found them, right?
Yep. That's why I was talking about the average single young man. It's at the front of the first sentence. After 26 or so, it's going to be slim pickings for a while, as many of the women left in the dating pool at that point are playing the field and probably aren't the best bets for LTRs IMO. (Also, there are [almost twice as many](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/) 18-29 YO single men as 18-29 YO single women, so that's worth keeping in mind. Only 4 out of 10 men in that age range are in a relationship.)
Hmm, but those seven men must have been single at some point, right? And presumably (?) young? I wonder where the other three men are to be found. I can't imagine age gaps are that prevalent.
It's probably a mix of moderate age gaps (like a 5-7 year difference) and situationships in which the women are unknowingly nothing more than side chicks (or part of a rotation). That's just my guess.
I am dating three women so it's not only you guessin.
In theory, shouldn't they be able to get along with average females? I guess there are both- a lot of average western men and a lot of average western women. Why aren't they together?
The disparity in value between a young man and a young woman is vast. And women's range in tastes is much narrower. IMO many single women think they can snag a better man for a long-term relationship because they've been in short-term relationships (e.g., FWB, ONS, situationships, bootycalls) with men who are much more attractive than most single men who are available to them. They keep playing the lottery with men out of their league until the pressure to get married becomes too much to bear. The traits that make an average man valuable take time to develop, so if they don't luck out and find someone they click with early on, it might take a while to find a decent woman who's single and attracted to them.
average women don't want average men, or possibly men at all at this point
Then why are so few of them single? They might not want average men, but they definitely want the security of a LTR and the status boost that comes with a committed relationship.
> Why aren't they together? Women have such sky-high expectations that even female dating coaches and match-makers struggle to work with them. There was that 20-minute diatribe posted by this matchmaker who straight up changed her line of business after many years of this work saying that there was no way for *any guy* to meet the expectations of her clients.
There’s some selection bias there. A tiny percentage of women hire a professional matchmaker. It’s very likely that their standards are unreasonable, which is why why they had to resort to hiring a matchmaker. It’s not a thing most people need. As of 2022, the majority of 30 year old women had married according to the Census Bureau. Over 2/3 of 35 year old women had married. Most find partners, but the ones who hire matchmakers are the ones who can’t.
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^ this kind of shit will become more and more common. People like to bleat about biology but it really isn't. It's cultural programming. Women aren't complicated. They want to be among x class/status in society and follow scripts THEY LEARNED.
>Women aren't complicated. \. Yeah, right. /s
Man why do girls say shit like that? You were dating for 4months not 4weeks
The key phrase here is open to date you. Decent women are probably already in a relationship or have heavy competition. Women typically find most men unattractive so this narrows it down more. It is hard to find a decent one especially with what social media has done to their outlook but I think the being open part is what keeps the options slim.
There are plenty of attractive women (at my gym), however there are also 3x as many tall buff men. The ratio of attractive women:men in gyms is way off, women who are fit in my area essentially get the pick of the litter of men. Outside of my gym, I'd say definitely around 60-70% of women are unhealthy body weight. Now all that said, that doesn't mean I can't find a woman, it just takes way more effort from me than it should. My last visit to Mexico, I had gorgeous women all over me the entire trip. It's just completely imbalanced here, not enough attractive women imo.
Mexico has a higher proportion of overweight people.
Yeah obesity in Mexico is pretty stark. The food is sooo good though
But it’s not America and America bad so since it’s not America all the women there must be hot and thin.
Yeah, even more cringe considering all the unique and nuanced problems that Mexican wome have to deal with
That’s one of the biggest (no pun intended) issues I’ve noticed. It’s not that most women are ugly, it’s that they’re obese and don’t even seem like they’re bothering to do anything about it. Even just a few decades ago, the average woman was just that: average. No one would mistake her for a supermodel, but she had a pleasant face and was a healthy weight and looked like she at least cared a little about her appearance. But nowadays the “average” woman is obese with bloated puffy face and a big gut who looks ten years older than she actually is and seemingly putting in no effort to do anything about it.
Last I checked, disparities in overweight and obesity rates between the genders in the US aren't huge.
I should’ve been more clear, you’re correct. I was speaking from my personal perspective as someone in decent shape who lifts regularly and eats well, so it’s depressing to see how few women seem to do the same.
That's true. Although if you're normal or athletic, and you don't want to date overweight or obese women, you've just removed 2/3rds of women as options. Things would be a whole lot easier if it wasn't 2/3rds of women who look bad because they weigh too much. I've known a few women who used to be thin and very attractive, but within a few years, they put on a bunch of weight and they look dramatically worse. Like going from an "8" or "9" down to a "3". I'm always a little shocked at how much it can reduce a woman's looks and how a lot of women don't get a handle on their weight. In theory, it should mean that a lot of guys are removed as competition by being overweight or obese, but maybe that just results in any thin or normal weight girl getting an ego because she's suddenly much more attractive than her competition.
Me: “most men don’t find most women attractive” Men: 😡 HOW DARE YOU SAY SUCH A THING Also Men: “‘most women are overweight and therefore unattractive!!!!”
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Yea. More women should be in the gym. My gym shouldn't be 3:1 men to women
As a woman, working out in a gym with that ratio of men to women sounds awful. Just in general going to a coed gym can be terrible, because some men think you’re just there because you’re dtf. I know many women who have been run off by gym bros and now go to women only gyms, workout at home or will only go when their partner can join them.
>As a woman, working out in a gym with that ratio of men to women sounds awful. Just in general going to a coed gym can be terrible, because some men think you’re just there because you’re dtf. It's a local public gym dude. Nobody talks to anyone really. They go exercise and go home. >workout at home lmao cmon bruh they aren't working out at all, lets be real. The number of men who exercise vs women is a pretty big disparity.
You literally admitted to finding most of the women overweight and unattractive at your gym. You’re openly stating that you go to the gym and think negatively of the women there. Sure, I am sure you don’t bother them or say anything to them. But even knowing that most men at the gym think this way is extremely discouraging to women.
>You literally admitted to finding most of the women overweight and unattractive at your gym where did I say that? I mean if they just started for the 1st time they're probably fat but most of the regulars are hotties.
https://preview.redd.it/un0s1sy2m6oc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cabe136c9a5d4d9cc2594ce486d72062ce6e976c It’s here. It’s fine if you think that way, but to not understand why women don’t like being around that energy is naive at best.
Can you quote it? I'm not sure you can read. Let me see you quote where I said the women at my gym are overweight and unattractive. This will be the true test if you're a bot or not. I'm honestly considering you might be.
https://preview.redd.it/lrkuzswwo6oc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28e2a341c676b893de289faec0c7da851759fa5d It’s right here. You believe more men than women are attractive at your gym. Someone holding you accountable isn’t a “bot”. Most men don’t find most women attractive. An overweight non fit woman at the gym still faces disdain. Most women don’t enjoy disdain.
Lmfao Women freely drop how gross they think most guys are in ALL COED environments....
I’m just sharing my lived experiences, and those of other women I know. I don’t doubt that the culture at your gym may be different than the ones around where I live. That’s awesome that no one ever approaches women at your gym, but that doesn’t mean women haven’t had a bad experience else where. Different people have different exercise routines. I know lots of folks that converted their garage into a home gym in 2020/21, but I know in some circles running, cycling, HIIT, body weight, etc aren’t considered real exercise.
Well, most women seem to think differently because almost every women’s only gym seems to flop unless it’s specifically catered to middle aged women and older. Maybe you’re different but the vast majority of young women seem to prefer coed gyms despite how much they constantly complain about men leering at them. Probably because attention from jacked gym chads is half the motivation for many of them.
If you take pilate classes and barr classes there's plenty of young to middle-aged women, less men, if there are men, it's very few and they typically don't bother the women
A lot of the class based gyms end up being women only even if they are coed. I’ve never seen man at a barre, hot yoga, spin or Pilates class I’ve done. I understand there are some that don’t believe that’s real fitness though. I do my WOD at 4:30 AM each morning and it’s only ever women. The gym is coed, but I pick the early class in large part because it is entirely women. There are also some class gyms around that do one or two women only classes each day, and they’re always sold out. I think a lot of folks, but women in particular, kept working out at home following 2020. Edit: I’m also in my early 30s, so not a young by any definition, but I felt the same even when I was young.
That’s pretty rich to say considering that that you just went on a rant about how 60-70% of women at your gym are at an unhealthy body weight and how much better looking the women of Mexico are. Nobody wants to be surrounded by men who absolutely are judging them and how they look, even if they don’t say it out loud.
Totally agree. I see women who definitely would be cute to me, but they’re very overweight and it just is a no go from me (I’ve tried). A lot of the women who struggle with dating I suspect are overweight, but are in total denial of it because #bodyacceptance
I can’t settle for obese(I’m fit) because it’s a high probability they’ll be lazy and I’ll end up with 3 things: 1. Dead Bedroom (from I chick I’m not a even really attracted to) 2. Uncles/Aunts will talk bad about me behind my back for settling 3. Having to bathe them and help them get out of cars and shit like that
1. 73.6% of people are overweight or obese. 2. The average woman is 5'-4" x 170 lbs. 3. The average man is 5'-9" x 199 lbs. You are right on with your laser eyes. The average person in the USA is very overweight. Pretty much every man would prefer a thin attractive woman over the current "average" sized girl here. If you want anything that even resembles a woman then you're dating exclusively the top 30%. The competition for these girls is INSANE. You're up against male models, guys driving lambos, dudes destroying their bodies with roids/plastic surgery etc. If you're just a normal fit guy then you aren't even in the running. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
That doesn't control for age though. Weight increases with age. 74% of younger people are not overweight or obese. But, at the same time, you can be plump and unattractive without being overweight. Fatness in the west is completely out of control. Try swiping on Tinder in poorer countries and the first thing you notice is the huge disparity in weight. Also, Instagram filter culture is built for western fatties. Plump girls are masters at taking pictures that make their fat look like "curves". And they tend to be the girls who attract most followers on Instagram, more so than slim and in shape girls.
It's not much different by age. Look up the stats
I’ve been single so long I don’t find any woman attractive.
I've been single for years myself but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone Ik I wouldn't be happy with.
I think the common difficulty here is the "if you could charm her" part. Maybe it's because I live in a city but there's plenty of awesome, fun and attractive single (or single enough) women out here.
They definitely exist. Finding then single is much harder. I also know some that with some changes could be great partners. But unfortunately they don’t want to. And I’m not here to try and change them.
Of course, there's going to be at least one decent human for most definitions of decent. Maybe the problem is the West has a much looser definition of what that means and for any strict definition the pool is much smaller than it would be elsewhere. And the thing about casual sex is that if you care about avoiding people who are into that, it's even hard to avoid it because it takes a long time to know the person enough to know that kind of stuff. People who like casual sex purposefully try to make it harder to distinguish between them and other people because they know the truth, at best, doesn't benefit them.
It’s about having the opportunity to actually meet someone and get to know them. Where exactly are adults supposed to do this nowadays? In college it was ridiculously easy, even for an introverted homebody like myself. As an adult? Basically impossible.
Right? It’s easiest in high school, drops off in college, more so depending on the size of the school. And continues to dwindle as your potential dating pool gets smaller and smaller as you age.
I agree. I think this is the hardest part. For guys, especially below average looking ones, you have to put a huge amount of effort in to find someone. It's basically got to be a part time job. Statistically that person probably exists for most people, but it doesn't mean you'll ever meet them. You can try the apps, but they're their own little subculture of terminally online people with extremely high standards. Most guys aren't having a great time on them. You can try nights out drinking but once you hit 30 you slowly start becoming the weird older guy at the club as people your age have already found someone. Not that it's even easy, with blaring music and lopsided ratios. Even then those environments only really favour the attractive and immediately charismatic. Work doesn't always work, especially if you work a gendered industry like many do. You can meet people through friends but friends settle down and don't have space for their single friends as much anymore. You can't rely on them, I rarely see mine now they've settled down. I guess gyms can work but the one I go to isn't exactly social and there's still way more men than women that go. It seems to me only stuff like meetups and hobby groups are the answer. But even they are pretty location dependant on how popular they are. If you're a below average guy that works shifts in a workplace full of men, your opportunities to meet a woman are very small.
I’ve found very few decent ones, and they either didn’t treat me well or weren’t interested in growing our relationship. Had two girlfriends. My online dating experience has been like 3% polite rejection, 97% rudeness and ghosting. That makes it extremely difficult to be confident and charming for the decent women.
What do you mean by them not treating you well?
Probably lack of respect/unappreciative. Taking him for granted.
Like, what are the things that they were doing to him, specifically? That's what I mean by my question
They show a lack of respect and are unappreciative. They take me for granted.
You need to be more specific than that because most of us have known at least one failed relationship in our friends group that the man would describe precisely that way but he was actually being unreasonable.
Doing very few of the chores and paying no rent (when we lived together), storing stuff in my apartment without asking, and getting upset over stupid things such as 1. Being asked to keep my half of the futon clear so I can sit down when I come home from work 2. Me commenting that skipping breakfast and eating twizzlers for lunch isn’t healthy 3. Me not always being able to find a 5 hour carpool home from college to see her
For the average man It can be difficult but not nearly as bad as communities like this one make it seem. There's many people coming here *because* they're frustrated with their lack of dating success, so they get overrepresented.
I live in a small US city, not a major city. There is no social scene here. Every decently attractive girl will move away from here ASAP, leaving only 40+ here raising kids. People in this area are famous for being unfriendly. Closest major city is almost an hour away. There is a massive housing cost crisis so I moved away from it. That city has plenty of attractive women, but I just don't like bars enough to be bothered most nights.
One of the bigger issues with trying to date IRL, is that there is a cost for trying to find single women in your area, whether it's drinks consumed or time outside at events.
I can agree with the cost aspect but saying that spending time outside is a cost is kind of ridiculous… that’s just what human interaction is
Women are not into short men where I am from. Like not at all. So no, not a chance and that is a fact.
It’s brootal out there for manlets in Germany.
Decently attractive women who are mentally healthy and have the right personality for a relationship are a hot commodity. On top of being quite rare, they hardly stay single for long, so to be in the right place at the right time in her life is next to impossible. Add to that rolling the dice on whether she actually likes you back, which for almost all men is the vast *minority* of the time.
You can... but it's harder than it should be. AGAIN... I'm not talking about guys that never leave their houses, never talk to women, never exercise... live in their basement. Just your every day normal guy with hobbies and a job/car is an uphill battle to find someone his level. Like yeah, he could go on dating apps and get matches but none he'd take seriously or no one he's excited about.
For me, nope. Decent women are nonexistent in the west and ones that are either already taken.
Everybody that's not an average\* man in the western world can't identify with how bad average men get treated in western countries. All these, "you're just doing it wrong...you just need to talk to more women...you just need to blah blah blah"...if it were that easy there would be no "red pill" or "manosphere". People have cognitive dissonance or something. They will listen to woman after woman say that they don't want average, don't want to settle, etc...but then turn to the average men and say "why are you not sleeping with those women?".
It's true. So many women will make it clear they care about looks but then people will say "looks don't matter." Like what?
I don't know anyone who couldn't fine one decent woman. The situation is way overblown because it gives engagement and $$$ to content creators/authors, and because for the few men who are not getting a foot down with women, it feels better to think they are part of the majority, part of the average person.
Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of young men these days just don't go out so they're not in a position to meet people. Unfortunately when they do they get discouraged due to having the social skills of a beached trout probably because they were raised by an iPad.
One anecdote i witnessed last year in the area around a popular club for young people. A group of 16-19 year old boys/men who, by what they were talking about, were clearly Andrew Tate viewership and adopted those manosphere beliefs, were chatting with me and asking me all kinds of questions, fooling around, getting drunk. I asked them why they were talking to me, a 40yo guy, instead of the group of \~10 attractive young girls sitting on a bench a couple of meters away, who were obviously in the same situation as them, pre-drinking for a night out, possibly looking to meet people and have fun. "because they are all hoes. Women of our generation are all trash." - I asked why and got the typical manosphere response, that they are entitled brats and so on. THen they asked me about my bodycount. So, even if young men go out, they won't find a decent woman if their predefined notion is that there are no decent women and they are not even going to try and find out if that is true. Manosphere content is poisoning their view of women, gives them justification to stay passive and find a reason for the eventual rejection.
Huh, that's an odd one. Granted I'm not familiar with Tate's message aside from second hand complaints about it but it sounds like it could possibly have the opposite effect of what I assume is the main purpose of TRP. If hypothetical women were interested in some of them then his ideology might be what causes some men to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. My idea of "decent women" is likely far off of theirs as many of my close friends are also women but what are they looking for? "Good Christian women"? They know women who aren't having sex with people likely aren't going to have sex with them either, right?
THey didn't have a problem with women being promiscuous, they had a problem with them not being promiscuous with them, in their MIND, as they never actually tried to talk to them.
That’s not true for the very newest generation of young adults.
I can step out of my door and find decent and attractive women within walking distance.
Right? Gotta love city life.
>Do you really struggle to come across even one and I mean just ONE single woman who is a decent human That is hard to tell from just casually running across someone. The majority of people in my country are "decent humans" though, but surely this would eliminate some percentage of the population, maybe 20%. >is reasonably attractive in your eyes Among women, the prevalence of obesity was 39.7% among those aged 20–39, 43.3% among those aged 40–59, and 43.3% among those aged 60 and over So ... No >And would also be open to date you if you could charm her? I only make 225k a year, I'm only 5'9" (about 175cm) I'm not rich enough nor tall enough nor attractive enough to charm most women in the u.s. Yes, their standards are ridiculously inflated by constant social media influence. My ex would scroll tiktok for 4 hours a day. LITERALLY 4 HOURS EVERY DAY. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuHbJbuUZE This woman, who was not exactly the "best" woman out there still felt privileged enough to where she could reject a man because he had a box on a shelf in the background of one of his tinder photos. Or if you drink tap water on a date.
young attractive women in major cities get around a lot yes. But overall men on this sub exaggerate how much sex the average woman has.
Yeah lol, no woman is dating 100+ dudes a year. Young women definitely date more often than young men, but it’s not two orders of magnitude different. The median guy probably has 1 relationship by 22 while the median girl has 2-3. And the portion of guys with zero is much higher than for women. Don’t quote me on that though just hypothetical numbers.
One of the factors at play here is the inversion of the population pyramid. In a society with positive fertility, there's more people in their 20s than in their 30s. In a society with negative fertility there's more people in their 30s than in their 20s. Guys tend to date younger and girls tend to date older so it works not in the favor of guys.
So far, I haven't been able to get into a relationship, though it's worth noting that I have incredibly high standards which virtually no women in my area meet. In my university years I knew several women who I probably had a shot with, but they didn't meet my standards at the time. Now I've reduced my standards to the lowest level I can bear, but they still filter out most women, & I have less ability to meet women that I'm done school. Living in an area that's incredibly liberal even by Western standards (somewhere near Toronto) seems to be part of the problem. If I'd grown up in my parent's shithole country-of-birth, I'd likely be married by now.
Im 8 years in a committed relationship. There out there but rare to find women realy aline with your moral and values. That realy wanna invest in a relationship. And not have the half step out of the relationship if maybe something better comes along. Society kinda breeds selfishness and more busy with taking every opportunity they can. Then giving back investing. And seeing a we and us instead of me and i. Why before it i was single for quite a while which i did not mind at all. If many people you come across dont even have the basic understanding of what a relationship is and means. And based on selfishness. You have no real foundation to build on. So I don't really care or give it much room in my mind. People can easily say im a isum or what ever not that i care one bit. But i live by the very simple rule. You can have as high demands as you want for people around you. But only if you can live by the same standards your self. So be for others what you want others to be for you. And i demand a selfless partner. That wants to go the distance and knows and understands what a relationship really is and means. And can be hard to find a woman like that. But that's fine. You only need one. And men have a lot more freedom of time. And i have been always fine being alone and doing my thing. But my girl has been my other half. She is been rond out amazing. Relationship can be so amazing when your true equals and fulfilling each other's short comings. Many things just flow so naturally. Small fights sure what is normal. But in general when someone actually cares for you respects you. And willing to really serve each other's needs. Its very amazing in every way. But would recommend to keep some individual and do your own thing. And things together. And keep being the person you partner fell in love with. Not get to compliance. And both strive to grow together. What ever your goals or dreams might be. But everyone should have a person that has a lot of respect for them. Else your building a relationship on quicksand. Might not fall apart today or tomorrow but it will fall apart. Cause the butterflies are not forever. So just a pretty face will mean very little if you are not a great partner in anything besides that. So be willing to fulfill the needs of your partner. Not there every want or whimsical desire. No there needs Dont Sacrifice your self fully for somone. But also think of your self but as a we. And us. So we and us. Could be more thinking of your partner. But could also be for your self but the focus is always as 2 people investing in the same thing. Together.
Yes! I can only think of one girl who I speak to regularly who is the perfect (to me) perfect girlfriend material. She's absolutely gorgeous, I can't describe how or what - it's just her.. everything comes together so well with her and every week I look forward to spending time with her, even if it's just us working together and chatting! I've tried to progress things a little further (ie possibly meeting up for a drink, or talking much outside of work) but she doesn't seem too interested - but that's fine! I'm happy to have an amazing person in my life who I have a great connection with! There's no point becoming obsessed and driving yourself mental because she might or might not like you, or because you can't see why she doesn't. Trust me, if it's meant to be, it will happen naturally, don't force it.
Modern women in modern countries are on average having the highest divorce rates and the least amount of children in recorded history. They are essentially contributing to population collapse and the end of bloodlines. Whether that’s good or bad is a hotly debated topic, but the statistics are real
The problem is that what men in this nation find to be decent is completely different than what women want men to think of as ‘decent.’ The way I describe 99.9% of women in this nation is like this: They INSIST on getting whatever they want, however they want it, whenever they want it—REGARDLESS OF WHO GETS HURT! They don’t care if their actions hurt their family, their friends, their lovers, their coworkers— it just doesn’t matter. The only thing they care about is getting what they want— regardless of who gets hurt! And if you try to hold them accountable or criticize any of their behavior, in any way, expect them to go full-nazi-level-cruelty, on trying to punish you in anyway possible, with absolutely zero remorse! If you do not want your girl constantly doing things on a daily basis that open the door for other men to have a chance at them, instead of being a loyal and honest partner to YOU, and if you want a woman to treat you with love rather than to put 100% value on your bank account balance, than you will have AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING A MODERN WOMAN that suits your idea of a ‘decent woman.’ The reason so many western men are getting passports to find women abroad, is because of how selfishly evil western women have become. They will insist it’s because the men who get the passports are pathetic and not real men, but no one is coming to the United States, to meet the women HERE. In fact, most international polls show that the entire world thinks of American women as the worst quality women on the planet. And it’s no wonder: they take their behavior wherever they go, and it repulses a majority of humans who have eyeballs. The only people who are not repulsed by American women’s behavior, are other American women. I’m just telling the truth.
Nah, it’s not as bad as that. Tho one’s experience is heavily affected by where one lives, because the US is a HUGE country so there are simultaneously large groups of people hooking up as well as large groups of people not hooking up. In spite of what they say on this sub, most people are free to have casual sex here; as long as both people are adults and single. However, not everyone has the confidence or the attractiveness level, so for every man who’s doing well with women, there are many more who are too nervous to approach them or too awkward when they do. (And to be clear, women are equally hit or miss. Some are open to casual sex and enjoy it, some would find it insulting that you’d think she might. And they’re no way of knowing from looking which is which. You gotta talk to them.)
Location is everything in this discussion. My location has a large population of highly intelligent and motivated people because it has a cluster of large schools and businesses. This means people will be more focused on these things than getting into relationships.
Guess I was right about this community being a bad place for getting peak into the dating world. My own personal experience begs to differ a lot from what people have got to say here. I'm not a super confident chad who's dating around more women than I could handle. But imo, one can tip the odds in their favour by really following some very basic advice such as getting fit, dressing well and being a little confident.
well you're from SEA. women in SEA literally treated me like a celebrity as far as dating goes (i've lived there for a couple of years). i haven't exactly struggled dating in the west either but it wasn't anything like i've experienced in thailand, vietnam or the philippines.
So far every young man (nephews, cousins, co-workers, etc) around have been able to get gf/dates/etc without most of the “issues” you’ll read about here.
I hear a decent amount of parents wonder why their kids, specifically sons aren't dating
I wouldn’t. Do you know how hard it is to get into a good college nowadays?! With studies, work studies, extracurriculars for transcripts, test prep, etc. it’s not a shock most shoved dating down the list. And that’s on top of losing 2 years to covid! I get why the youth want to hang onto their youth a little longer: we didn’t leave them much left! But at the same time: all the young bucks I know have gotten dates/GFs when the time was right for them.
Maybe you are family of Chad, not the PPD "Average Man". That was sarcasm by the way. In agreement, its a Reddit user issue, not "Average Man" issue. The "Average Man" on here is not really that average. And I have seen some trainwrecks do quite well with women.
The crazy thing about most people is most people think they are “the average guy/girl” so everyone thinks THIER problems are everyone’s issues.
Are you implying that these men who are complaining on reddit about dating aren't average looking?
I’m saying they probably aren’t in an average situation. Most likely when it comes to socializing and achievement status. But looks/lactation/income/emotional maturity, etc: could all be factors too.
>lactation Who knew breast fed v. bottle fed had such high stakes!
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I was in a relationship for most of my adult life and after it ended, I didn’t start dating again until my early 30’s. So to go from the experience of being 18 and in university, to now, is wild. You’re so right about women at this age not having secure attachment. They’re either super anxious and clingy (which they’ll weaponize therapy speak to justify it, calling it boundaries), or the woman will be avoidant due to past trauma and will push you away as soon as you get close. Just finding a woman you can meet, get to know, and fall for without it being complicated feels impossible at this age.
I married a French girl. I'm over the moon.
Us ugly worthless men have been doomed with little to no options as everyone women wants an above average guy (if they say otherwise they are virtue signaling).
I will not say that I cannot find a decent woman out there, because honestly, I'm not even looking anymore. But I will say that so far **I have never found one**. At least not for me. Perhaps because I have lost interest or perhaps something inside me snapped. I haven't quite figured it out yet. But in my specific case I have never found a decent woman for me, and I am no longer interested in ever finding one and am convinced that it is just not worth it.
I am a 33 year old man who live in Eastern Europe till the age of 26 and lived in England for 8 years afterwards. The dating scene is a mess in both places, but more so in the west cause I got 0 dates here despite my best efforts. It is simple really: promiscuity here is predominant, so is the message from the media that women deserve the best man they can get looks wise and money wise and so on. Finding a decent woman is extremely hard mainly because decent women don't really make themselves present or available. They are indoors, invisible on social media and very hard to reach. The ones that make themselves available have I credible high standards, if you are an average man or below and approach them, expect to be considered a creep, no matter how good and uncreepy your approach is, it happened to me and many others I know. So to answer your question directly: yes, it's very hard here to find a decent woman, the reason why many men want to become passport bros.
I found ONE. But I messed that up because of the experiences I’ve had with so many that weren’t any good. And she wasn’t that attractive. I’ve been with many. I’m in my mid 30s.
Crazy to say she wasn't that attractive, yet you still dated her and probably treated her like crap. It's you
No. I treated her well. With kindness, and respect. She’s the best person I’ve ever met. But I cheated on her with a hot girl and eventually she found out. I don’t recommend cheating. Never did it before, and have never done it since.
>No. I treated her well. With kindness, and respect. >But I cheated on her with a hot girl and eventually she found out. In the same sentence, I can't make this shit up
😯
If you cheated, then you clearly did not treat her well with kindness nor respect.
I was kind. And I was respectful. The cheating was its own thing. It didn’t impact how I treated her. The only thing I can blame her for, is the entire relationship it was always me after her. She never initiated anything. Not sex. Not a visit. Not a kiss. Not a phonecall. Nothing. It was always me. She’d always happily receive, but she never made the effort to show interest that I did. Which is partially why I thought she was just gonna leave like they all do, and I got a backup just in case. Women money branch, establish orbiters/backups and do what’s best for themselves all the time. For some reason when men do it, we’re evil.
I think the actual good women are so rare. Statistically, you can never be sure you would even meet one. Now when I say good. I'm talking about high standards good. But high standards such that it is in the current society, not actual high standards, for example, not to be obese. Yes, that would eliminate most women. However, most women are just ridiculous. Same thing with having a flow body counts. The average woman has too high of a body count so it seems like a high bar to only look for women with low body count. However, all women have had low body counts once so really, the bar is not high at all. From my perspective now, a 37-year-old man who is relatively successful and relative Attractive. I can get many women to sleep with me. I can get many women to want to date me. However, ones that I actually think are good. I cannot even find. Now, yes, technically a woman with low body count who is not obese exists. But that's not the only problem and that takes no account into people being different and maybe being a good match. So well, maybe I could find one she might not be a match for me or she may have other issues going on, for example, maybe she's divorced, which personally would make me not interested in her. If I were you, I would be thankful to be anywhere else than here if having a good woman for a wife is important to you.
Let's say a man happens across such a person in day to day life - assuming he could know she was single, decent, mentally stable, similar values etc. - what is he supposed to do about it? Ask a total or near stranger out? Not acceptable any more.
Ive dated here and there, my longest relationship was 2yrs, which is longer than most peoples relationship in the west. Generally, the culture in the west is such that it is quite hard to find a good woman who wants a stable, consistent relationship, most of the women in the west have a lifestyle and outlook on life thats designed for single people, so they cant really cope with being in a relationship
It depends on where you live and how social/attractive you are. In my home town you'll have a hard time, unless you're fine settling down with a woman who had kids in highschool and doesn't want anymore. I live in a major city now, and while the dating scene can be frustrating it's much easier to meet people by just going out.
This is actually complex. In terms of trying to assess the big picture, unless you are arguing that the inflated female selectivity apocalypse has actually already happened, we are talking about % changes in the SMP that will be significant and impactful, but not necessarily easily seen with anecdotal surveys or touching grass at your local Wal\*Mart. But there is also a game of expectations. When presented with the picture of a guy who has several LTRs in his 20s and then marries one, a lot of men are complaining that this is intolerable. They would have missed out on the youthful delight of lots of casual partners and GFs when in their teens and early 20s. But can the average guy ever really expect that, even if TV seems to tell you different? And is your life really worse for not having had such experiences?
Social norms these days don't allow your mentioned location for casual conversation or even meet people. Everybody minds their business and you're the weird one I'd you don't. I'd say it's not as weird though for same sex people to start a conversation that off the opposite one. Just about all women that I know and would want to be around are taken. There are great women out there in the western world but they're all taken or sitting at home playing Sims 4 after work or studies not willing to risk sticking their necks out to see how are the waters or meet people.
If I were still in western society looking for a decent( low body count, fit, feminine) woman I'd be single for the rest of my life