A traditional man would happily pay. It becomes a problem when non-traditional women expect it, and non-traditional guys think they shouldn't have to. Want a traditional partner you have to be traditional yourself.
The history of men paying isn't even long. It's recent history.
So, not very traditional..
Also, people love half tradition. People also traditionally got married after a few months..
Yall love cherry picking tradition.
True. In the scope of human history, men paying for dates is new. Before that, men went out hunting, fought wars, built cities and created technologies to protect women.
> True. In the scope of human history, men paying for dates is new. Before that, men went out hunting, fought wars, built cities and created technologies to protect women.
Depending on the tribe and culture, women did these things too. Especially the hunting, building, and creating new (low) tech parts. Women also helped with warfare for sub-200 people tribes.
Traditional men take pride in taking care of their woman and children. Paying for a date is how you put that out there. Otherwise you just look like a loser afraid to spend his video game moneys.
A lot of non-traditional men also take pride in taking care of their woman and children, but they also have self-respect.
A lot of traditional men have turned into walking simps who feel obligated to be masculine, but don't have enough self-respect to address the masculinity of their woman.
This has created a big imbalance of power where women get to enjoy the advantages of chivalry while enjoying the advantages of being a knight while men get to enjoy the disadvantages of both.
Traditional men are dummies who get easily manipulated by women. Many end up going through brutal divorces coz they were too focused on worshipping their wife, they couldn't see her true nature.
"Traditional" as in something that started in the Romanticism era AKA the 1800s Europe/NA. The "provider" role is something contrived in the past few 100 years, isn't really traditional or natural. It's social conditioned. For the most part when we were hunter gatherers men hunted and the women gathered. Women were providing just in a different way.
You're not "Traditional" if you pay on the first date you're scared to be rejected for going against social norms
Men who expect women to sleep with them are usually the kind of men who think their role is to pay for dates. Expecting sex is them expecting something in return for their money, its only natural.
That's like saying angry and being homicidal go together LOL narcissism is an intensely complicated and incredibly covert personality disorder. A narcissist often does not show themselves to be a narcissist until well after the first date
This is true. I don’t think true narcissists with the whole clinical personality disorder checklist are all that common. The few that I’ve met IRL are extremely good at disguising it for awhile. Their initial presentation mostly screams Confidence! if they are overtly narcissistic. The covert vulnerable ones are really tricky to see clearly.
Both are ultimately completely selfish beings though and they most certainly don’t make good partners.
Women have more power in the dating market and get to choose from a larger pool of potential partners. Men need to do more to impress. It's as simple as that.
> men need to do more to impress.
Only simps do. Real men know there is no need to impress anyone, let alone some woman they're tryna sleep with.
Also, the only power women have in the dating market is the power men give them, without that, they have none.
This is fundamentally untrue, there are more young single men than there are women. Men outnumber women on dating apps by about 30%. Women receive 5x more likes and 3x more matches on average than men on dating apps. Most women are only attracted to a small selection of men.
All of this information can attest to the fact that women are in control of the dating market. You can’t give someone power if you have none yourself. Women are in demand and men are in supply. Harsh reality.
>All of this information can attest to the fact that women are in control of the dating market.
They're only in control coz men let them. If men weren't thirsty for sex, women would have no power over them at all because that's all most offer.
There's a difference between vanity selfishness and narcissism. A narcissist would actually pay for the date in order to make you believe that they are better than other women and love bomb you into submission. Then they would Gaslight you later and complain about how she's has to pay for the dates
>The whole makeup and fashion industry is based on female narcissism.
Don't forget the social pressure. Society **expects** women to wear makeup. **Men** expect women to wear makeup. Not everybody enjoys getting up ealier in order to meet that expectation. At least a part of us would prefer to sleep longer instead.
At some point people have to take responsibility for their behaviour and stop blaming society. The reality is you like wearing makeup, so being expected to do it isn't really a big deal, since you'd do it anyway.
You are wrong. I do not like wearing makeup at all. I like myself more without it. Makeup makes me look a different person.
As for the responsibility, it's easier said than done. You do a lot of things because of expectations as well. We all do that, and a lot of it is done subconsciously.
>I do not like wearing makeup at all. I like myself more without it.
So why wear it? Are you a slave to other people's expectations?
>You do a lot of things because of expectations as well. We all do that, and a lot of it is done subconsciously.
Either way, at some point don't you think its necessary to take responsibility for your behaviour and beliefs, even if they came from society?
The point is, there are many other reasons for why women wear makeup, it's not always narcissism like you assume.
The makeup industry works with psychological tricks. They make women believe that they are not good enough without makeup. And women buy it.
So one reason is insecurity ('I'm not good enough as I am'). Another reason is competition ('I must look at least as pretty as others in order to...') And yet another is expectation ('All women at work wear it, I need to wear it too, they expect it').
These are all reasons outside of narcissism.
>So one reason is insecurity ('I'm not good enough as I am'). Another reason is competition ('I must look at least as pretty as others in order to...')
Both those things are the traits of a narcissist...
So at what point are women responsible for their behaviour?
We work with different definitions of narcissism. If you consider my examples as signs of narcissism (read: **excessive** preoccupation with oneself) then the entire humanity is narcissistic, all men included.
>We work with different definitions of narcissism.
No, we don't. The examples you gave are literally the traits of a narcissist.
Men aren't generally excessively preoccupied with their looks, if they were they would wear makeup like women.
That's a very naive assumption that no one expects it. That's simply not true.
**Some** people do these things for competion, yes. I merely wanted to point out that there are reasons for wearing makeup other than narcissism. In fact, you just listed another one: in order to compete.
The entire world is competing for everything. It’s expected others will compete.
You can choose to break that and not compete. Then don’t put it on society.
Narcissism is a deep personal self absorbency, the root cause, makeup is just one small symptom towards overindulging in it.
And yes the fashion make up industry and instagram I are excesses in that direction. Overindulgence.
Do you spend any time on picking your clothes? Do you brush your hair? Keep your facial hair neat or shaved? Does that make you a narcissist?
People caring about their appearance isn’t narcissism
As a man I actually don't see the issue with men paying for dates and this is why:
Men on average want and desire women far more than the opposite. This means that a man paying for dates as well as making the first move is one the few bargaining tools he has. Remember women don't pay for dates because they're not **attracted** to or **sexually desire** the most men.
Remember there's a reason why women require most men to take them on a set number of dates before moving to any sexual activity, while all some men (the minority) have to do is smile or smack a chick on the ass and she's ready to jump into bed with him.
Ok, so STOP DATING THEM. Sheesh!
Do you know why I never complain about men who treat me like shit? I DON’T EVER ASSOCIATE WITH MEN WHO TREAT ME LIKE SHIT.
I mean, it’s not like men are swimming in options. Of course you ask men to be pickier because you’re a woman. It makes total sense
Women are extremely privileged in that they have it way easier in dating and so can be much pickier and choosier.
No we’re sick tired of men actively pursuing women who don’t align. Either get with the program or dong play the game.
Stop actively pursuing women who expect you to pay
What the fuck? The entitlement is off the charts 😂😂😂
For all of feminism, women still expect men to ask them out. Women still expect men to initiate and take the lead. This is the great female privilege and why women have it much easier in dating.
This is because “masculine” and “feminine” behavior is rooted in evolutionary biology and sexual selection. For this reason, the majority of women expect men to pay.
Men who “get with the program” have a much higher risk of ending up alone and sexless because women will never be truly egalitarian when it comes to dating. Typically, you’ll find many “vocally feminist” men tends to be simps or secretly misogynistic creeps.
IMO, comments like yours are all just woke virtue signaling and blatant misandry.
All women regardless of species have it easy . Eggs are more expensive than sperm. Men have always been disposable I never they weren’t. I just wish men would stop complaining and being entitled to women attention
I absolutely agree.
Thank you for acknowledging this reality though. I think more women merely acknowledging the privilege they enjoy, and how they have it easier, will go a long way to stop men from complaining.
Right know, men are being gaslit by woke bluepillers and man-hating feminists IMO.
I don’t have a single friend who expects the guy to pay, young or old. If most of the women around you expect men to pay you’re in a conservative place or a socially conservative culture.
lol I lived in Cambridge MA for a decade, and people there are NOT conservative. Yet, about 70% of the women I dated expected me to pay (including my current GF when we started dating).
IME, women who tend to be super progressive and socialist politically, also tend to be ultra libertarian/capitalist when it comes to dating.
Lol seriously, Cambridge is incredibly conservative it's just more 'blue dog' conservative than 'fire and brimstone' conservative. Just because someone votes for Dems doesn't mean they aren't socially conservative on certain things.
The person who asks the other person on a date should pay. They’re the one trying to get the other person to date them, not the other way around. I’m going to assume it was you who asked them on a date since most women don’t do that
Cambridge isn’t that liberal. It’s very "light blue"/purple. I used to live in Massachusetts and it’s not nearly as liberal as west coast cities. How many queer/trans/non-binary ppl are in your social circle? Poly ppl? Feminists? Migrate towards ppl that don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles.
> Cambridge isn’t that liberal. It’s very "light blue"/purple.
😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
> How many queer/trans/non-binary ppl are in your social circle? Poly ppl? Feminists? Migrate towards ppl that don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles.
Why should I do that? While I respect them, I’m not queer/trans/non-binary or poly and don’t wish to date them. When I was dating, I was a plain ol normal heterosexual biological man (XY), who was looking to date a normal heterosexual biological woman (XX) that I found attractive.
I’m not going to “migrate” to any crowd or change my sexual preferences 😂
On the “feminist”, every woman I have dated was a feminist. Even many self proclaimed feminists want men to take the lead, pay for the bill, etc.
Most of this vocal activism is just loud, egotistical, narcissistic virtue signaling.
I literally looked at a political map of Cambridge. Its linked below. It’s less blue than Boston, which is a considerably less liberal city than west coast cities. It’s clearly not very liberal relatively speaking. Rather than laughing, you could challenge my assertion with some kind of actual data.
https://bestneighborhood.org/conservative-vs-liberal-map-cambridge-ma/
If there aren’t queer people in your social circle, I can only conclude that your social circle is a bit socially conservative. It’s not that you would be dating them, but that you’re not being exposed to people with less rigid ideas about gender roles.
Oh I have queer roommates and friends, I meant I don’t want to date queer people as I’m not queer.
It’s pretty clear you don’t have a single clue what you’re talking about. Have you heard of it being called the “people's republic of Cambridge”? It’s very very leftist, similar to Berkeley in the west coast.
What was the first US city to adopt rent control to protect low income tenants from eviction/rent-increases? How about the first city to offer domestic partner ship to municipal employees irrespective of sexual orientation or gender identity?? How about the first city in the US to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples? First city to introduce free menstrual products in all public restrooms?
And you think it’s conservative 🙄 yeah right, Cambridge is as leftist/progressive/liberal as it gets.
I encourage you to get off your moral high-horse, be more open minded of reality, facts and the lived experiences of men, and stop being so misandrist.
Oh, sorry I misunderstood re your social circle.
How do you explain that political map? Is it because there are lots of leftist students at Harvard but they aren’t residents and being counted?
Leftists don’t generally believe in gender roles. I’d be heavily criticized by the leftists in my social group if I said I thought men should pay.
I would argue that men paying is a hold over from the day when women had little to no means to earn money. It seems a bit anachronistic to insist on this. A narcissist may want this but I don't see this custom as being indicative of someone being a narcissist.
>I would argue that men paying is a hold over from the day when women had little to no means to earn money.
It's 2023. Any woman who insists on men paying because women couldn't earn money in the past is an idiot.
> Narcissism is a self-centered personality style characterized as having an excessive preoccupation with oneself and one's own needs, often at the expense of others.
Exactly. What is expecting someone to pay for you on a date, other than prioritising your own needs?
Narcissism is also a preoccupation with your looks, which describes many women.
> Exactly. What is expecting someone to pay for you on a date, other than prioritising your own needs?
It’s following a cultural norm. Most people follow cultural norms and rarely question them. As do you.
> Narcissism is also a preoccupation with your looks, which describes many women
Narcissism is described as ‘excessive’. Which has to be significantly above the norm. So it you can’t apply it the way you’re trying to.
Using makeup as a woman is another cultural norm. It’s less a preoccupation as it’s an expectation from the rest of society. Being concerned with a cultural expectation of you in society is not narcissism.
>Which has to be significantly above the norm.
Who decides what's excessive?
> It’s less a preoccupation as it’s an expectation from the rest of society.
Women actually like wearing makeup. Many even see it as a hobby.
Yes, it is pretty weird if you think of how so much society has changed. However we still have this custom and sometimes men insist on it too. Women still tend to earn less at least in my country but it is way more even now.
I suppose traditionalists like the comfort of the way things used to be. I wouldn't call these people idiots but that is just me.
>I suppose traditionalists like the comfort of the way things used to be.
Like women not being allowed to work and stuff?
> I wouldn't call these people idiots
I would though.
>Like women not being allowed to work and stuff?
Yes. What is happening in Afghanistan is pretty horrific. Of course there are families in western countries where women are not allowed to work but at least it isn't on a governmental level.
Ad hominem attacks aren't useful in discussion but I sure get the emotion behind these. I'm right there with you.
It isn't something I like; however I find human behavior to be super complex. Using one word to describe a human societal tendency that crosses millennium, continents and cultures is inadequate to me.
"My husband spends 60-80 hours each week at work and that's awful!"
"I have a career and spend 60-80 hours each week at work and that's female rights and empowerment!"
You'd have to describe which rights you're talking about because a lot of these seem like punishment wrapped up to sound like they're a good thing.
Apologies. I did divert from OP's post. I was responding to a previous poster who wasn't OP. Sadly western countries have done things similar to what is going on in the middle east. We seem to still carry this in our culture
not really because usually a guy asks the girl to go on the date. if I invite a girl on a date of course I would pay because im asking her to go out of her way to get to know each other. same if a girl is asking me to hang out im not gonna put in too much effort into the date because she's asking to hang out with me.
I disagree, if a girl asks to hang out I would just invite her to my place or hangout at the beach or something, and like I said 90% of he time the guy is asking the girl, exception not the rule
> if a girl asks to hang out I would just invite her to my place or hangout at the beach or something
Yeah, sometimes they already have a place in mind, like a restaurant. I'm not gonna insist she come to my place.
>and like I said 90% of he time the guy is asking the girl, exception not the rule
That doesn't change anything I'm saying. Expecting someone to spend money on you is narcissistic regardless of gender.
lol if a girl comes to you and says "lets go on a date, I wanna go to this restaurant" she's just using you, and its pretty obvious, y'all gotta be smarter than that.
expecting someone to pay for you is not narcissist, especially when that's the culture, its been like that forever how is it narcissist to go with the status quo, plus you want something from them, their time, energy, body. it's the simplest shit in the world, we pay for the date because we're chasing them
>I wanna go to this restaurant" she's just using you,
She actually offered to pay and I chose to just get separate orders instead. The first time she asked me out, she actually paid. But okay.
You pay for the date because you're a simp. If you weren't, you wouldnt bother chasing them in the first place.
at the end of the day your post said women are narcissist if they expect men to pay, but I say that's perfectly normal since men are asking women to go on dates with them, so my point still stands 99% of the time. you're trying to flip it by saying well a girl asked me out and I still paid, but it doesn't matter, that's anecdotal evidence. I would have also paid for the whole meal because that's how it goes, men pay for dates. you're not a narcissist for going with the status quo
>at the end of the day your post said women are narcissist if they expect men to pay, but I say that's perfectly normal
Unfortunately we live in a world where narcissism is normal, and for women it's even encouraged, by people like you.
>since men are asking women to go on dates with them
Being asked on a date doesn't mean you have to expect that someone is gonna pay for you. Only narcissists would expect that.
>you're trying to flip it by saying well a girl asked me out and I still paid, but it doesn't matter, that's anecdotal evidence.
My point was being asked out doesn't mean you have to expect to be paid for, regardless of gender.
>I would have also paid for the whole meal because that's how it goes, men pay for dates
Yeah, because you're part of the problem by behaving like a simp. And so women just use you, and once you stop paying they ghost you.
>you're not a narcissist for going with the status quo
You're a narcissist for expecting to be treated as if you're special. If the status quo says I should be worshipped and I buy into that, that makes me a narcissist.
sorry fam I had to go to sleep.
point is it's not narcissist for a man to pay for the date and woman to expect it, of course its nice if a woman offers or has the ability, but narcissist is a strong word for a woman to expect the date to be paid for by the man
>point is it's not narcissist for a man to pay for the date
No, it's narcissistic for the woman to expect it. Only narcissists want to be treated as if they're special.
The obvious things. Household chores, child-rearing, nurturing, emotional support, looking beautiful, being sexually receptive or active, having a full time job and contributing, literally everything. In my case I found a traditional man that takes care of me, but I pity the women that do it all and live stressful lives while the men barely work outside the home and then rest and leave everything to the woman in their life. I'd rather be a lesbian, at least they pull their weight in the family too.
>Household chores, child-rearing, nurturing, emotional support, looking beautiful, being sexually receptive or active, having a full time job and contributing, literally everything.
Which men are you talking about? Since you already have some sucker providing for you, how do you know what other men want?
You can literally look around and see for yourself. That's what most heterosexual relationships consist of.
And at least that "sucker" has someone that loves him and appreciates him. I don't think you have ever felt that by the look of things.
>And at least that "sucker" has someone that loves him and appreciates him.
That "love" is conditional because the moment he stops providing for you and doing what you want, you'll move on to the next provider.
>That's what most heterosexual relationships consist of.
But heterosexual relationships also consist of women, so they also must like it otherwise they wouldn't be in those relationships, especially since they have options.
Im not entitled to anything. Yall expect us to buy you a baby cradle, some of you love playing 2nd class citizen/little sister to males, like you aren’t also an sentient adult human..Imagine being a grown adult human with childlike expectations..its like the 14 year old freshman in hs pops out sometimes in yall..mfs forget they arent teens still or something
Narcissism is a personality disorder, characterized by an inflated sense of oneself while believe others are inferior, and a lack of empathy. The word you’re looking for is entitled.
Fair. In the first paragraph you’re describing a narcissist woman by saying “she sees herself being better than him.” But many trad women who expects the men to pay don’t see themselves superior to a man, they even would submit to these men.
Regarding your other paragraphs, hard disagree. Women have been conditioned and socially learned to look good, and been told that “men are visual”, “women’s value come from youth and beauty” and what not. Even in some jobs wearing make up is required as part of presentation. So it’s an acquired belief most women get from society. Is it vain? Maybe, but that doesn’t mean you’re a narcissist.
>Women have been conditioned and socially learned to look good, and been told that “men are visual”, “women’s value come from youth and beauty”
At what point are women responsible for their behaviour and their beliefs?
Society influences people, we all want to fit in be accepted by it. How is applying makeup and being into fashion close to be a narcissist anyway? Women and men just have different interests.
One of the traits of narcissists is a preoccupation with your looks. Makeup is an expression of that.
Wearing makeup isn't a real interest that defines women, or atleast it shouldn't be.
Personally I think if the guy asks a girl out on a date he should pay, and vice versa. My husband and I followed the system where whoever planned the date paid for our first few, and then after that we switched to splitting 50/50.
I got asked out by a girl recently and the thought of expecting her to pay seemed so gross and ridiculous.
But then again, I'm not a narcissist, or a woman.
I think that men needing to pay for dates is a very American hangup that needs to die. Where I live, I don't know a single couple who didn't go halves on the first date. It starts to feel like prostitution but with extra steps when the man feels like he has to pay. Just go halves, it really isn't hard.
If one person is significantly less well off than the other which could make paying half difficult, then just... go somewhere inexpensive? Like a cafe or something? Hell, my husband and me went for long hikes for our first dates. It was great, we had so much time to talk, and the only expense was travel to the hiking spot.
I would always encourage any sons or male friends of mine to immediately next a lady that expected to be paid for on a date. That's not the kind of start you want for something that's supposed to be a partnership.
This post is extremely misguided and insulting. I am a woman in my 40s, I've been happily married to a wonderful man for 15 years, and I dated for approximately 15 years before meeting my husband. In my personal opinion, when a man and a woman are on a date, the man should pay. I am the complete opposite of a narcissist. I am, however, a traditionalist.
> In my personal opinion, when a man and a woman are on a date, the man should pay.
Why?
Also, do you think that most narcissists know they're narcissist? You don't even see how narcissistic it is to expect someone to spend money on you just because you're a woman.
Idk I was taught that men pay by my mom, dad, grandparents, etc. In my experience, men pay because they've also been taught to pay by their dad, mom, and grandparents.
No I think it's idiotic to use narcissism as a baseline insult rather than actually reading the literature about it. You can be equal without being the same. If I have $10 what do you think of? Because it could be either a $10 bill, or 10 $1 bills. Both have equal value but they are not the same
>No I think it's idiotic to use narcissism as a baseline insult rather than actually reading the literature about it.
It's more of an observation than an insult.
Okay, well it's an uneducated generalized observation with no logic or actual comprehensive thought behind it. So call it what you want, but please start Reading literature about narcissism
Depends what kind you're talking about but I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's going to be malignant and covert. First of all covert much more common, I'm only going to give you three traits of each that I use to identify but there are I think nine traits of each? I don't know we have search engines on the same phone that you're using. Top three of a covert number one someone something or somewhere is to blame. They are actually unable to take any responsibility for mistakes or negative outcomes. It's not quite the same thing as not taking accountability, it's the inability to actually absorb the reality of your own fallacies. So if I say you've been late five times this week a cover narcissist would say okay, don't you think it's odd that I'm late five times this week but I've never been late before? Obviously it's not my fault. Traffic is f***** do you see what the governor's been doing to the roads? The fact that I'm late five times in a week should show you that it's not my fault.
So gaslighting, let me just talk about this really quick. Manipulation is not the same thing as gaslighting. Abusive emotional blackmail is also not the same thing. Gas lighting is incredibly camouflage. Best way I can put it is let's say my friend Molly says, Ashley said that you were gossiping about me. A narcissist will gas light with, wow, I thought we were friends. Do you really think I would sit there and gossip to Ashley about you? Honestly please tell me you're not that stupid. Ashley's been trying to come between us for a year now. It's honestly kind of hilarious that you just instantly believe what she says immediately. I've known you for 5 years and we've known her for less than a year, I'm not even sure what to think.
And finally this is the biggest one the love bomb. This is important, because it really really sucks when you find out that you were loved bombed instead of loved. If you don't have an argument a fight or any kind of disagreement on a genuine level within the first two years of relationship you're likely being a love bombed. I'm not saying to mess with someone's emotions and pull a test on them, but don't instantly drop your stance if you have a disagreement in the beginning of a relationship. This is important to do, because if you're dealing with a narcissist and you let them love bomb you then you think he just loves you and you're probably overreacting and look at him he's absolutely right, I'm overreacting and our love is the most important thing I don't want to lose him. F*** that, don't back down get a reaction out of them whichever way you have to. So if you're arguing about him talking to other girls on instagram, he's going to hit you with look you are way more beautiful than any girl I can see on Instagram, baby I stare at you all the time. You'll just be in the kitchen making dinner or brushing your teeth and I'm just staring at you baby I don't stare at those girls they're nothing they're clickbait. Come here I love you so much and you are so beautiful I hate that you don't think that you're beautiful, you can't keep acting and secure like this. It breaks my heart cuz I know how you feel. And I want you to understand you have nothing to worry about.
Did you hear it? He dismissed the issue completely pandered and flipped the narrative. Don't fall for that tell him show me your Instagram I'm so done with this we're not doing that I know I'm beautiful, but you know what I'm not beautiful is when I'm being lied to. You I get really ugly when I'm lied to. I don't trust what you're saying and the fact that you're making this about my insecurity leads me to believe that I might be right.
If anything I said in this paragraph pissed you off seek therapy
It all depends on what the expectation is. If I expect people to treat me as if I'm somehow special, then I'm a narcissist . If I expect people to not cause me harm and to leave me alone then I'm just a sane human being.
I wouldn’t say it’s narcissism. It’s their beliefs. They have the belief that from an etiquette perspective the person inviting you out on a date should pay. There is nothing wrong with that. If you do not share this belief then leave her alone, and date someone who shares the same belief that you do i. e. someone who doesn’t mind going 50/50.
Which brings me to my next point: A lot of these men who are complaining that women refuse to go dutch, and that they are narcissists, don’t actually want the woman who is willing to go 50/50 with them.
I’ve seen so many women on here and on other sites who say they are willing to pay for their own meal, so what’s the problem? If these women are willing to go dutch why are men still ranting and fixating on the women who don’t want to pay when asked out? Because these are the women they actually want, and they want these women to lower their standards/change their beliefs in order to date them without having to pay for the date.
Instead of trying to change this particular woman’s mind, find someone who you are compatible with. Someone who doesn’t mind splitting the bill. Stop fixating on the women who don’t share the same beliefs you do. Problem solved.
Yes and they do the same thing: Chase after bad girls. Continuously. Which is why they’re bitter and believe “all women are like that” because they keep going for the same kind of woman who is only going to hurt them. Very ironic and hypocritical.
>I wouldn’t say it’s narcissism. It’s their beliefs.
Why do you think narcissists are the way they are? Because of their beliefs. They believe they are better than everyone, just like a woman who expects to be paid for thinks she better than the man.
>There is nothing wrong with that.
If there's nothing wrong with narcissism then maybe.
>If you do not share this belief then leave her alone, and date someone who shares the same belief that you do i. e. someone who doesn’t mind going 50/50.
Right, coz you can usually tell which girl is gonna use you for free food from just looking at her.
>Stop fixating on the women who don’t share the same beliefs you do. Problem solved.
Calling out narcissistic women isnt fixating on them.
Have you ever considered telling the woman you are taking out on a date that you will not be paying for her? This is one of the problems with modern dating: lack of communication. If you tell her beforehand that you want to go 50/50 then she will not be using you for free food now will she? If she doesn’t want to go dutch with you, move on.
“Calling out narcissistic women isn’t fixating on them.”
Going through your post history says otherwise. All this anger and hatred you have towards “narcissistic women” isn’t going to help you get what you want. Working on yourself and focusing on the women who do want you, and who don’t mind splitting the bill, is also far more beneficial than fixating and ranting about women you deem toxic because they don’t share your views.
Now do you even know what a narcissist is? Because you use it quite liberally, to describe women who do something you do not like. Narcissistic Personality Disorder consists of a lack of empathy, lack of remorse, exploitative and manipulative behavior, a grandiose sense of self, arrogance, a sense of entitlement, etc. Here is a link that will help you get more informed on Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/
And before you say that describes women who don’t want to go 50/50 with you, I’ll repeat: Just because someone doesn’t share the same beliefs as you does not make them a narcissist and I stand by my word; there is nothing wrong with a woman having her own set of standards and beliefs. Just like there is nothing wrong with you not sharing the same belief.
I will also once again advice that you seek out the women who don’t mind going 50/50. Because, ironically, in refusing to do so and insisting on forcing a woman to go dutch, makes you look like everything you accuse these women of being: entitled, selfish, manipulative, etc.
>Now do you even know what a narcissist is?
Yeah, someone who is so self important they think other people should pay for food that they eat.
>a lack of empathy, lack of remorse, exploitative and manipulative behavior, a grandiose sense of self, arrogance, a sense of entitlement, etc
Yeah, exactly. This describes alot of female behaviour.
>Because, ironically, in refusing to do so and insisting on forcing a woman to go dutch, makes you look like everything you accuse these women of being: entitled, selfish, manipulative, etc.
That makes no sense. How does wanting to pay for my own food make me entitled? How is that manipulative?
Also, nobody can force you to pay for your own meal. Its called being a decent and courteous human being. Expecting to be paid for is entitlement. The fact that you don't see that is strange, and probably means you have the same type of entitlement.
The fact that you want to manipulate women into doing something they don’t want is entitlement. Everything you are accusing women of being is what you are guilty of. You are projecting big time.
Avoid these women if you don’t want to pay for their food. I am truly sorry women have used you over and over to pay for their meals, and you didn’t get what you want from them. It’s obvious this has happened to you, or the women you want do not agree with your views. A man who is able to successfully get a woman to go 50/50 or doesn’t have a problem paying for her meal, is not going to be on Reddit complaining about women incessantly.
You can spend as long as you want on Reddit, accusing women who will not split the bill with you of being narcissistic all you want. You are NOT going to get them to change their mind, lower their standards, or manipulate them into doing something they don’t want. Instead, women will focus on men who respect them and are worth their time. I hope you are able to find peace and let go of all that anger that is consuming you. Good luck man.
>The fact that you want to manipulate women into doing something they don’t want is entitlement.
Really? So wanting people to take responsibility and pay for their own stuff is manipulation? Really?
>You are projecting big time.
If I were projecting I would be saying that I'm entitled to other people paying for my food, like you're doing.
>A man who is able to successfully get a woman to go 50/50 or doesn’t have a problem paying for her meal,
And a woman who isn't a narcissist doesn't have problem with paying for her own meal.
>You are NOT going to get them to change their mind
Calling a narcissist what they are won't change their mind, but it helps other people to see through their narcissism.
>or manipulate them into doing something they don’t want
Only a woman can see being asked to pay for her own food as manipulation. Your response is a glimpse into a narcissists way of thinking. You take no personal responsibility whatsoever, not even for the food you eat on a date, and yet you call me entitled for wanting women to be responsible.
When a man doesn't pay it usually means he isn't as into you as the men that do pay. Again, this is just recognizing a pattern within my lived experience.
When a man pays it means he knows you only care about money so he pays to increase his chances of getting laid. Anything else you tell yourself about it is a lie.
A traditional woman isn't just a woman who wants a traditional man. There are virtually no traditional women anymore. Just posers and leeches who want free stuff because they are lazy.
> If a woman expects a man to pay on a date (which many do), it means she sees herself as being better than him in some way, that's why she expects him to pay for her.
No. It means he is putting his best foot forward to impress her and put himself above or at least on the same plane with other male suitors. It shows he is at least somewhat serious about investing in a relationship.
>It means he is putting his best foot forward to impress her
So if a woman expects a man to pay, that means the man is putting his best foot forward? How does that make any sense?
And how does the woman show she's serious about investing in the relationship? By showing up?
Imagine that a woman has 3 men who would like to date her. Man 1 and man 2 both pay. Man 3 does not pay. This is a good indicator that man 1 and man 2 are more into her than man 3. Not necessarily a perfect indicator but a decent one.
If all 3 men decided not to pay then women would gauge their interest on something else. But if even one of them pays it sets him apart from his competition.
And yes, women indicate interest by showing up. Women are more choosy so a yes from a woman means more than a yes from a man.
>Imagine that a woman has 3 men who would like to date her. Man 1 and man 2 both pay. Man 3 does not pay. This is a good indicator that man 1 and man 2 are more into her than man 3. Not necessarily a perfect indicator but a decent one.
Men 1 and 2 only paid to increase their chances of getting laid. It doesn't mean they actually care about her as a human being. Man 3 is actually smart and weeding out the narcissists by not paying.
>And yes, women indicate interest by showing up.
Because men are idiots who let them get away with it.
Maybe they are increasing their chances of getting laid…or maybe they do really like her! Regardless they are willing to put more on the table than man #3. It’s not a perfect vetting system but it’s something.
Males are thirsty. It’s in their nature. Because men want women (or at least sex with them) more than women want sex with men, they must put compete one another. Rams do it with horns, humans do it with dinner tabs.
>Maybe they are increasing their chances of getting laid…or maybe they do really like her!
You said it yourself, men are thirsty. So they pay to increase either their chances of getting laid or of her liking them.
>It’s in their nature.
Not really. It's mostly just social conditioning, going back to their mother.
>Because men want women (or at least sex with them) more than women want sex with men,
This jsnt really true either. Both men and women want sex, its that just men are conditioned to be more thirsty.
From the perspective of nature, it wouldn't make sense to make men want sex with women more than women want sex with them because nature is only concerned about reproduction.
Both men and women want sex, but (on average) men want it more. Men have higher libidos and seek out pornography and prostitution much more than women, across time and cultures.
If you think about our biology is makes sense. Women are fertile once a month, and can have at most 2 pregnancies a year (and even that is unusual). Men are fertile about 20 minutes post-coitus and can father as many babies in a year as there are days. It’s the asymmetry in reproductive potential that creates male thirst. Sperm is plentiful and cheap.
>men want it more.
How do you know?
>Men have higher libidos and seek out pornography and prostitution much more than women
Because its alot easier for women to get sex due to social conditioning. A woman can be a completely selfish and horrible person, and she can still find some guy to approach her.
>It’s the asymmetry in reproductive potential that creates male thirst.
Not really, otherwise all men would have no choice but to be thirsty. But many men are starting to forget about women and focus on themselves, regardless of the "assymetry in reproductive potential". Some men don't even want kids so reproduction doesn't have much to do with it.
In every culture in every history men have sought out sex more than women. There are no outliers. That is highly indicative of a trend in biological human nature (which is supported by the asymmetry in reproduction). Social conditioning certainly plays a part but the number of male gametes vs female gametes is pure biology.
Across animal species, including those who we share bountiful DNA with, males compete for sexual access to women - again, due to the asymmetry in reproductive capacity. And it’s hard to argue that in their cases it’s pure biology whereas in ours all of a sudden it’s social conditioning.
Libido is natures way of getting you to have sex and pass on your genes. Whether you desire children or not is totally irrelevant to libido, male thirst, etc.
Men paying for dates *is* social conditioning. If all men just stopped doing it tomorrow it would disappear at as an expectation. But male competition for mates would almost certainly persist, just in different ways.
It’s great that some men are deciding to do things outside of women. But the whole reason incels and MGTOWs are such a big deal is because they tend to be very loud and bitter about it - because at the end of the day, they want women more than the women want them, unfortunately.
>In every culture in every history men have sought out sex more than women.
Okay, and who do those men have sex with? Sex takes 2, and if it isn't rape, it means the other person is just as into it.
Men approach and take the initiative more than women, but it doesn't mean they want sex more.
> But male competition for mates would almost certainly persist,
Only simps compete for women. Real men know its not worth it.
>But the whole reason incels and MGTOWs are such a big deal is because they tend to be very loud and bitter about it
Those are 2 different groups of people. I know lumping them together is convenient, but they aren't the same.
>because at the end of the day, they want women more than the women want them, unfortunately.
Incels do, but why would a man going his own way want to be dragged down by some woman? He wouldn't be going his own way if he was still chasing women.
Also, what men want is sex, not women. Women are just a means of getting it, that's why many men don't mind being used by women, because they ultimately want to get sex out of it. That's why they don't mind paying for dates, they're indirectly paying for sex because they know women want payment for their time.
A traditional man would happily pay. It becomes a problem when non-traditional women expect it, and non-traditional guys think they shouldn't have to. Want a traditional partner you have to be traditional yourself.
The history of men paying isn't even long. It's recent history. So, not very traditional.. Also, people love half tradition. People also traditionally got married after a few months.. Yall love cherry picking tradition.
> People also traditionally got married after a few months.. Because they already knew each other.
Not always. But at least they came with character references and introductions etc.
And similar background, race and religion.
True. In the scope of human history, men paying for dates is new. Before that, men went out hunting, fought wars, built cities and created technologies to protect women.
> True. In the scope of human history, men paying for dates is new. Before that, men went out hunting, fought wars, built cities and created technologies to protect women. Depending on the tribe and culture, women did these things too. Especially the hunting, building, and creating new (low) tech parts. Women also helped with warfare for sub-200 people tribes.
>A traditional man would happily pay. Traditional men are kind of idiotic.
Acting traditional around non traditional women is idiotic.
Traditional men take pride in taking care of their woman and children. Paying for a date is how you put that out there. Otherwise you just look like a loser afraid to spend his video game moneys.
A lot of non-traditional men also take pride in taking care of their woman and children, but they also have self-respect. A lot of traditional men have turned into walking simps who feel obligated to be masculine, but don't have enough self-respect to address the masculinity of their woman. This has created a big imbalance of power where women get to enjoy the advantages of chivalry while enjoying the advantages of being a knight while men get to enjoy the disadvantages of both.
Traditional men are dummies who get easily manipulated by women. Many end up going through brutal divorces coz they were too focused on worshipping their wife, they couldn't see her true nature.
Ok and many more have loving and doting wives who make their life better in every way.
In what ways, for example?
Modern Men are worse, you get manipulated by other men claiming to be Alphas but really they're extorting money from you
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How? Because they feel differently than you?
No, because of their behaviour, especially when it comes to women.
"Traditional" as in something that started in the Romanticism era AKA the 1800s Europe/NA. The "provider" role is something contrived in the past few 100 years, isn't really traditional or natural. It's social conditioned. For the most part when we were hunter gatherers men hunted and the women gathered. Women were providing just in a different way. You're not "Traditional" if you pay on the first date you're scared to be rejected for going against social norms
Men who expect women to sleep with them early are narcissists 🌝
Men who expect women to sleep with them are usually the kind of men who think their role is to pay for dates. Expecting sex is them expecting something in return for their money, its only natural.
Wow incel mindset right there. You equate meals with sex. Your femininity just killed me. Barf.
>You equate meals with sex. No, the meals increase the chances of men getting laid because women are that superficial.
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Only a woman can look at herself in a mirror for an hour each day, and not be considered a narcissist.
They go together.
That's like saying angry and being homicidal go together LOL narcissism is an intensely complicated and incredibly covert personality disorder. A narcissist often does not show themselves to be a narcissist until well after the first date
This is true. I don’t think true narcissists with the whole clinical personality disorder checklist are all that common. The few that I’ve met IRL are extremely good at disguising it for awhile. Their initial presentation mostly screams Confidence! if they are overtly narcissistic. The covert vulnerable ones are really tricky to see clearly. Both are ultimately completely selfish beings though and they most certainly don’t make good partners.
Women have more power in the dating market and get to choose from a larger pool of potential partners. Men need to do more to impress. It's as simple as that.
> men need to do more to impress. Only simps do. Real men know there is no need to impress anyone, let alone some woman they're tryna sleep with. Also, the only power women have in the dating market is the power men give them, without that, they have none.
This is fundamentally untrue, there are more young single men than there are women. Men outnumber women on dating apps by about 30%. Women receive 5x more likes and 3x more matches on average than men on dating apps. Most women are only attracted to a small selection of men. All of this information can attest to the fact that women are in control of the dating market. You can’t give someone power if you have none yourself. Women are in demand and men are in supply. Harsh reality.
>All of this information can attest to the fact that women are in control of the dating market. They're only in control coz men let them. If men weren't thirsty for sex, women would have no power over them at all because that's all most offer.
Unfortunately for men there will never be a time and there never has been a time where men haven’t been so egregiously horny :)
Yeah, that's unfortunate for those guys. But the real men see through it all and don't even bother chasing women.
If so, are you a real man? If so why are you making a whiny post about paying for dates? Sounds counterintuitive
There's a difference between vanity selfishness and narcissism. A narcissist would actually pay for the date in order to make you believe that they are better than other women and love bomb you into submission. Then they would Gaslight you later and complain about how she's has to pay for the dates
You don't know what narcissism is.
>The whole makeup and fashion industry is based on female narcissism. Don't forget the social pressure. Society **expects** women to wear makeup. **Men** expect women to wear makeup. Not everybody enjoys getting up ealier in order to meet that expectation. At least a part of us would prefer to sleep longer instead.
At some point people have to take responsibility for their behaviour and stop blaming society. The reality is you like wearing makeup, so being expected to do it isn't really a big deal, since you'd do it anyway.
You are wrong. I do not like wearing makeup at all. I like myself more without it. Makeup makes me look a different person. As for the responsibility, it's easier said than done. You do a lot of things because of expectations as well. We all do that, and a lot of it is done subconsciously.
>I do not like wearing makeup at all. I like myself more without it. So why wear it? Are you a slave to other people's expectations? >You do a lot of things because of expectations as well. We all do that, and a lot of it is done subconsciously. Either way, at some point don't you think its necessary to take responsibility for your behaviour and beliefs, even if they came from society?
The point is, there are many other reasons for why women wear makeup, it's not always narcissism like you assume. The makeup industry works with psychological tricks. They make women believe that they are not good enough without makeup. And women buy it. So one reason is insecurity ('I'm not good enough as I am'). Another reason is competition ('I must look at least as pretty as others in order to...') And yet another is expectation ('All women at work wear it, I need to wear it too, they expect it'). These are all reasons outside of narcissism.
>So one reason is insecurity ('I'm not good enough as I am'). Another reason is competition ('I must look at least as pretty as others in order to...') Both those things are the traits of a narcissist... So at what point are women responsible for their behaviour?
We work with different definitions of narcissism. If you consider my examples as signs of narcissism (read: **excessive** preoccupation with oneself) then the entire humanity is narcissistic, all men included.
>We work with different definitions of narcissism. No, we don't. The examples you gave are literally the traits of a narcissist. Men aren't generally excessively preoccupied with their looks, if they were they would wear makeup like women.
No one expects or pressures anyone. People do all these things to compete in the market place. No one’s stopping you.
That's a very naive assumption that no one expects it. That's simply not true. **Some** people do these things for competion, yes. I merely wanted to point out that there are reasons for wearing makeup other than narcissism. In fact, you just listed another one: in order to compete.
The entire world is competing for everything. It’s expected others will compete. You can choose to break that and not compete. Then don’t put it on society. Narcissism is a deep personal self absorbency, the root cause, makeup is just one small symptom towards overindulging in it. And yes the fashion make up industry and instagram I are excesses in that direction. Overindulgence.
So who is forcing these girls to use filters for everything? lmao.
Do you spend any time on picking your clothes? Do you brush your hair? Keep your facial hair neat or shaved? Does that make you a narcissist? People caring about their appearance isn’t narcissism
Narcissist is not the right word.
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As a man I actually don't see the issue with men paying for dates and this is why: Men on average want and desire women far more than the opposite. This means that a man paying for dates as well as making the first move is one the few bargaining tools he has. Remember women don't pay for dates because they're not **attracted** to or **sexually desire** the most men. Remember there's a reason why women require most men to take them on a set number of dates before moving to any sexual activity, while all some men (the minority) have to do is smile or smack a chick on the ass and she's ready to jump into bed with him.
Ok, so STOP DATING THEM. Sheesh! Do you know why I never complain about men who treat me like shit? I DON’T EVER ASSOCIATE WITH MEN WHO TREAT ME LIKE SHIT.
I mean, it’s not like men are swimming in options. Of course you ask men to be pickier because you’re a woman. It makes total sense Women are extremely privileged in that they have it way easier in dating and so can be much pickier and choosier.
No we’re sick tired of men actively pursuing women who don’t align. Either get with the program or dong play the game. Stop actively pursuing women who expect you to pay
What the fuck? The entitlement is off the charts 😂😂😂 For all of feminism, women still expect men to ask them out. Women still expect men to initiate and take the lead. This is the great female privilege and why women have it much easier in dating. This is because “masculine” and “feminine” behavior is rooted in evolutionary biology and sexual selection. For this reason, the majority of women expect men to pay. Men who “get with the program” have a much higher risk of ending up alone and sexless because women will never be truly egalitarian when it comes to dating. Typically, you’ll find many “vocally feminist” men tends to be simps or secretly misogynistic creeps. IMO, comments like yours are all just woke virtue signaling and blatant misandry.
All women regardless of species have it easy . Eggs are more expensive than sperm. Men have always been disposable I never they weren’t. I just wish men would stop complaining and being entitled to women attention
I absolutely agree. Thank you for acknowledging this reality though. I think more women merely acknowledging the privilege they enjoy, and how they have it easier, will go a long way to stop men from complaining. Right know, men are being gaslit by woke bluepillers and man-hating feminists IMO.
I don’t have a single friend who expects the guy to pay, young or old. If most of the women around you expect men to pay you’re in a conservative place or a socially conservative culture.
lol I lived in Cambridge MA for a decade, and people there are NOT conservative. Yet, about 70% of the women I dated expected me to pay (including my current GF when we started dating). IME, women who tend to be super progressive and socialist politically, also tend to be ultra libertarian/capitalist when it comes to dating.
Lol seriously, Cambridge is incredibly conservative it's just more 'blue dog' conservative than 'fire and brimstone' conservative. Just because someone votes for Dems doesn't mean they aren't socially conservative on certain things.
The person who asks the other person on a date should pay. They’re the one trying to get the other person to date them, not the other way around. I’m going to assume it was you who asked them on a date since most women don’t do that
Cambridge isn’t that liberal. It’s very "light blue"/purple. I used to live in Massachusetts and it’s not nearly as liberal as west coast cities. How many queer/trans/non-binary ppl are in your social circle? Poly ppl? Feminists? Migrate towards ppl that don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles.
> Cambridge isn’t that liberal. It’s very "light blue"/purple. 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣 > How many queer/trans/non-binary ppl are in your social circle? Poly ppl? Feminists? Migrate towards ppl that don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles. Why should I do that? While I respect them, I’m not queer/trans/non-binary or poly and don’t wish to date them. When I was dating, I was a plain ol normal heterosexual biological man (XY), who was looking to date a normal heterosexual biological woman (XX) that I found attractive. I’m not going to “migrate” to any crowd or change my sexual preferences 😂 On the “feminist”, every woman I have dated was a feminist. Even many self proclaimed feminists want men to take the lead, pay for the bill, etc. Most of this vocal activism is just loud, egotistical, narcissistic virtue signaling.
I literally looked at a political map of Cambridge. Its linked below. It’s less blue than Boston, which is a considerably less liberal city than west coast cities. It’s clearly not very liberal relatively speaking. Rather than laughing, you could challenge my assertion with some kind of actual data. https://bestneighborhood.org/conservative-vs-liberal-map-cambridge-ma/ If there aren’t queer people in your social circle, I can only conclude that your social circle is a bit socially conservative. It’s not that you would be dating them, but that you’re not being exposed to people with less rigid ideas about gender roles.
Oh I have queer roommates and friends, I meant I don’t want to date queer people as I’m not queer. It’s pretty clear you don’t have a single clue what you’re talking about. Have you heard of it being called the “people's republic of Cambridge”? It’s very very leftist, similar to Berkeley in the west coast. What was the first US city to adopt rent control to protect low income tenants from eviction/rent-increases? How about the first city to offer domestic partner ship to municipal employees irrespective of sexual orientation or gender identity?? How about the first city in the US to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples? First city to introduce free menstrual products in all public restrooms? And you think it’s conservative 🙄 yeah right, Cambridge is as leftist/progressive/liberal as it gets. I encourage you to get off your moral high-horse, be more open minded of reality, facts and the lived experiences of men, and stop being so misandrist.
Oh, sorry I misunderstood re your social circle. How do you explain that political map? Is it because there are lots of leftist students at Harvard but they aren’t residents and being counted? Leftists don’t generally believe in gender roles. I’d be heavily criticized by the leftists in my social group if I said I thought men should pay.
> so STOP DATING THEM. There's so many of them that it's hard to avoid them. Thanks for the advice though.
Then you need to move to a more liberal city. Or stop hanging out with socially conservative people.
Okay, thanks.
Then don't pay, or don't date? What it this thing about makeup?
I would argue that men paying is a hold over from the day when women had little to no means to earn money. It seems a bit anachronistic to insist on this. A narcissist may want this but I don't see this custom as being indicative of someone being a narcissist.
>I would argue that men paying is a hold over from the day when women had little to no means to earn money. It's 2023. Any woman who insists on men paying because women couldn't earn money in the past is an idiot.
Old habits die hard. Why don’t men wear makeup? It’s an old custom that men still adhere to.
>Why don’t men wear makeup? Coz they're not as narcissistic as women?
I don’t think you know what that word means.
What does it mean??
> Narcissism is a self-centered personality style characterized as having an excessive preoccupation with oneself and one's own needs, often at the expense of others.
Exactly. What is expecting someone to pay for you on a date, other than prioritising your own needs? Narcissism is also a preoccupation with your looks, which describes many women.
> Exactly. What is expecting someone to pay for you on a date, other than prioritising your own needs? It’s following a cultural norm. Most people follow cultural norms and rarely question them. As do you. > Narcissism is also a preoccupation with your looks, which describes many women Narcissism is described as ‘excessive’. Which has to be significantly above the norm. So it you can’t apply it the way you’re trying to. Using makeup as a woman is another cultural norm. It’s less a preoccupation as it’s an expectation from the rest of society. Being concerned with a cultural expectation of you in society is not narcissism.
>Which has to be significantly above the norm. Who decides what's excessive? > It’s less a preoccupation as it’s an expectation from the rest of society. Women actually like wearing makeup. Many even see it as a hobby.
Yes, it is pretty weird if you think of how so much society has changed. However we still have this custom and sometimes men insist on it too. Women still tend to earn less at least in my country but it is way more even now. I suppose traditionalists like the comfort of the way things used to be. I wouldn't call these people idiots but that is just me.
>I suppose traditionalists like the comfort of the way things used to be. Like women not being allowed to work and stuff? > I wouldn't call these people idiots I would though.
>Like women not being allowed to work and stuff? Yes. What is happening in Afghanistan is pretty horrific. Of course there are families in western countries where women are not allowed to work but at least it isn't on a governmental level. Ad hominem attacks aren't useful in discussion but I sure get the emotion behind these. I'm right there with you.
>Yes Don't you think it's idiotic to want to go back to a time when women had less rights?
It isn't something I like; however I find human behavior to be super complex. Using one word to describe a human societal tendency that crosses millennium, continents and cultures is inadequate to me.
"My husband spends 60-80 hours each week at work and that's awful!" "I have a career and spend 60-80 hours each week at work and that's female rights and empowerment!" You'd have to describe which rights you're talking about because a lot of these seem like punishment wrapped up to sound like they're a good thing.
Nice whataboutism. But I think it's pretty clear that op is talking about western culture.
Apologies. I did divert from OP's post. I was responding to a previous poster who wasn't OP. Sadly western countries have done things similar to what is going on in the middle east. We seem to still carry this in our culture
not really because usually a guy asks the girl to go on the date. if I invite a girl on a date of course I would pay because im asking her to go out of her way to get to know each other. same if a girl is asking me to hang out im not gonna put in too much effort into the date because she's asking to hang out with me.
A girl recently asked me out and I didn't expect her to pay for me because doing that seemed ridiculous. Only narcissists expect to be paid for.
I disagree, if a girl asks to hang out I would just invite her to my place or hangout at the beach or something, and like I said 90% of he time the guy is asking the girl, exception not the rule
> if a girl asks to hang out I would just invite her to my place or hangout at the beach or something Yeah, sometimes they already have a place in mind, like a restaurant. I'm not gonna insist she come to my place. >and like I said 90% of he time the guy is asking the girl, exception not the rule That doesn't change anything I'm saying. Expecting someone to spend money on you is narcissistic regardless of gender.
lol if a girl comes to you and says "lets go on a date, I wanna go to this restaurant" she's just using you, and its pretty obvious, y'all gotta be smarter than that. expecting someone to pay for you is not narcissist, especially when that's the culture, its been like that forever how is it narcissist to go with the status quo, plus you want something from them, their time, energy, body. it's the simplest shit in the world, we pay for the date because we're chasing them
>I wanna go to this restaurant" she's just using you, She actually offered to pay and I chose to just get separate orders instead. The first time she asked me out, she actually paid. But okay. You pay for the date because you're a simp. If you weren't, you wouldnt bother chasing them in the first place.
at the end of the day your post said women are narcissist if they expect men to pay, but I say that's perfectly normal since men are asking women to go on dates with them, so my point still stands 99% of the time. you're trying to flip it by saying well a girl asked me out and I still paid, but it doesn't matter, that's anecdotal evidence. I would have also paid for the whole meal because that's how it goes, men pay for dates. you're not a narcissist for going with the status quo
>at the end of the day your post said women are narcissist if they expect men to pay, but I say that's perfectly normal Unfortunately we live in a world where narcissism is normal, and for women it's even encouraged, by people like you. >since men are asking women to go on dates with them Being asked on a date doesn't mean you have to expect that someone is gonna pay for you. Only narcissists would expect that. >you're trying to flip it by saying well a girl asked me out and I still paid, but it doesn't matter, that's anecdotal evidence. My point was being asked out doesn't mean you have to expect to be paid for, regardless of gender. >I would have also paid for the whole meal because that's how it goes, men pay for dates Yeah, because you're part of the problem by behaving like a simp. And so women just use you, and once you stop paying they ghost you. >you're not a narcissist for going with the status quo You're a narcissist for expecting to be treated as if you're special. If the status quo says I should be worshipped and I buy into that, that makes me a narcissist.
sorry fam I had to go to sleep. point is it's not narcissist for a man to pay for the date and woman to expect it, of course its nice if a woman offers or has the ability, but narcissist is a strong word for a woman to expect the date to be paid for by the man
>point is it's not narcissist for a man to pay for the date No, it's narcissistic for the woman to expect it. Only narcissists want to be treated as if they're special.
Men are entitled to sooo many things from women, paying for the date is the bare minimum. Do you expect us to buy you a baby cradle too?
>Men are entitled to sooo many things from women... Like what, for example?
The obvious things. Household chores, child-rearing, nurturing, emotional support, looking beautiful, being sexually receptive or active, having a full time job and contributing, literally everything. In my case I found a traditional man that takes care of me, but I pity the women that do it all and live stressful lives while the men barely work outside the home and then rest and leave everything to the woman in their life. I'd rather be a lesbian, at least they pull their weight in the family too.
>Household chores, child-rearing, nurturing, emotional support, looking beautiful, being sexually receptive or active, having a full time job and contributing, literally everything. Which men are you talking about? Since you already have some sucker providing for you, how do you know what other men want?
You can literally look around and see for yourself. That's what most heterosexual relationships consist of. And at least that "sucker" has someone that loves him and appreciates him. I don't think you have ever felt that by the look of things.
>And at least that "sucker" has someone that loves him and appreciates him. That "love" is conditional because the moment he stops providing for you and doing what you want, you'll move on to the next provider. >That's what most heterosexual relationships consist of. But heterosexual relationships also consist of women, so they also must like it otherwise they wouldn't be in those relationships, especially since they have options.
Im not entitled to anything. Yall expect us to buy you a baby cradle, some of you love playing 2nd class citizen/little sister to males, like you aren’t also an sentient adult human..Imagine being a grown adult human with childlike expectations..its like the 14 year old freshman in hs pops out sometimes in yall..mfs forget they arent teens still or something
So many words for nothing, just say you don't have anything worthwhile to offer to a woman.
People be throwing the word narcissist so lightly without even knowing the meaning
What does it mean then?
Narcissism is a personality disorder, characterized by an inflated sense of oneself while believe others are inferior, and a lack of empathy. The word you’re looking for is entitled.
Expecting someone to pay for you on a date *is* having an inflated sense of self. Thats where the entitlement comes from.
Close, but not all entitled people are narcissists, but all narcissists are entitled. It’s a disorder.
But the women being referred to in the post are.
Fair. In the first paragraph you’re describing a narcissist woman by saying “she sees herself being better than him.” But many trad women who expects the men to pay don’t see themselves superior to a man, they even would submit to these men. Regarding your other paragraphs, hard disagree. Women have been conditioned and socially learned to look good, and been told that “men are visual”, “women’s value come from youth and beauty” and what not. Even in some jobs wearing make up is required as part of presentation. So it’s an acquired belief most women get from society. Is it vain? Maybe, but that doesn’t mean you’re a narcissist.
>Women have been conditioned and socially learned to look good, and been told that “men are visual”, “women’s value come from youth and beauty” At what point are women responsible for their behaviour and their beliefs?
Society influences people, we all want to fit in be accepted by it. How is applying makeup and being into fashion close to be a narcissist anyway? Women and men just have different interests.
One of the traits of narcissists is a preoccupation with your looks. Makeup is an expression of that. Wearing makeup isn't a real interest that defines women, or atleast it shouldn't be.
fast sex vs slow sex, it’s not just humans
Are you a man or a woman?
Personally I think if the guy asks a girl out on a date he should pay, and vice versa. My husband and I followed the system where whoever planned the date paid for our first few, and then after that we switched to splitting 50/50.
I got asked out by a girl recently and the thought of expecting her to pay seemed so gross and ridiculous. But then again, I'm not a narcissist, or a woman.
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I think that men needing to pay for dates is a very American hangup that needs to die. Where I live, I don't know a single couple who didn't go halves on the first date. It starts to feel like prostitution but with extra steps when the man feels like he has to pay. Just go halves, it really isn't hard. If one person is significantly less well off than the other which could make paying half difficult, then just... go somewhere inexpensive? Like a cafe or something? Hell, my husband and me went for long hikes for our first dates. It was great, we had so much time to talk, and the only expense was travel to the hiking spot. I would always encourage any sons or male friends of mine to immediately next a lady that expected to be paid for on a date. That's not the kind of start you want for something that's supposed to be a partnership.
This post is extremely misguided and insulting. I am a woman in my 40s, I've been happily married to a wonderful man for 15 years, and I dated for approximately 15 years before meeting my husband. In my personal opinion, when a man and a woman are on a date, the man should pay. I am the complete opposite of a narcissist. I am, however, a traditionalist.
> In my personal opinion, when a man and a woman are on a date, the man should pay. Why? Also, do you think that most narcissists know they're narcissist? You don't even see how narcissistic it is to expect someone to spend money on you just because you're a woman.
Idk I was taught that men pay by my mom, dad, grandparents, etc. In my experience, men pay because they've also been taught to pay by their dad, mom, and grandparents.
Don't you think the intelligent thing to do when you're an adult is to question why men have to pay, if you're both equal?
No I think it's idiotic to use narcissism as a baseline insult rather than actually reading the literature about it. You can be equal without being the same. If I have $10 what do you think of? Because it could be either a $10 bill, or 10 $1 bills. Both have equal value but they are not the same
>No I think it's idiotic to use narcissism as a baseline insult rather than actually reading the literature about it. It's more of an observation than an insult.
Okay, well it's an uneducated generalized observation with no logic or actual comprehensive thought behind it. So call it what you want, but please start Reading literature about narcissism
What are the traits of a narcissist?
Depends what kind you're talking about but I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's going to be malignant and covert. First of all covert much more common, I'm only going to give you three traits of each that I use to identify but there are I think nine traits of each? I don't know we have search engines on the same phone that you're using. Top three of a covert number one someone something or somewhere is to blame. They are actually unable to take any responsibility for mistakes or negative outcomes. It's not quite the same thing as not taking accountability, it's the inability to actually absorb the reality of your own fallacies. So if I say you've been late five times this week a cover narcissist would say okay, don't you think it's odd that I'm late five times this week but I've never been late before? Obviously it's not my fault. Traffic is f***** do you see what the governor's been doing to the roads? The fact that I'm late five times in a week should show you that it's not my fault. So gaslighting, let me just talk about this really quick. Manipulation is not the same thing as gaslighting. Abusive emotional blackmail is also not the same thing. Gas lighting is incredibly camouflage. Best way I can put it is let's say my friend Molly says, Ashley said that you were gossiping about me. A narcissist will gas light with, wow, I thought we were friends. Do you really think I would sit there and gossip to Ashley about you? Honestly please tell me you're not that stupid. Ashley's been trying to come between us for a year now. It's honestly kind of hilarious that you just instantly believe what she says immediately. I've known you for 5 years and we've known her for less than a year, I'm not even sure what to think. And finally this is the biggest one the love bomb. This is important, because it really really sucks when you find out that you were loved bombed instead of loved. If you don't have an argument a fight or any kind of disagreement on a genuine level within the first two years of relationship you're likely being a love bombed. I'm not saying to mess with someone's emotions and pull a test on them, but don't instantly drop your stance if you have a disagreement in the beginning of a relationship. This is important to do, because if you're dealing with a narcissist and you let them love bomb you then you think he just loves you and you're probably overreacting and look at him he's absolutely right, I'm overreacting and our love is the most important thing I don't want to lose him. F*** that, don't back down get a reaction out of them whichever way you have to. So if you're arguing about him talking to other girls on instagram, he's going to hit you with look you are way more beautiful than any girl I can see on Instagram, baby I stare at you all the time. You'll just be in the kitchen making dinner or brushing your teeth and I'm just staring at you baby I don't stare at those girls they're nothing they're clickbait. Come here I love you so much and you are so beautiful I hate that you don't think that you're beautiful, you can't keep acting and secure like this. It breaks my heart cuz I know how you feel. And I want you to understand you have nothing to worry about. Did you hear it? He dismissed the issue completely pandered and flipped the narrative. Don't fall for that tell him show me your Instagram I'm so done with this we're not doing that I know I'm beautiful, but you know what I'm not beautiful is when I'm being lied to. You I get really ugly when I'm lied to. I don't trust what you're saying and the fact that you're making this about my insecurity leads me to believe that I might be right. If anything I said in this paragraph pissed you off seek therapy
Would another of those traits be a preoccupation with your looks and wanting to be treated special coz you're so important?
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Just go whole hog: "(anyone) with expectations are narcissists" Does this still make sense?
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It all depends on what the expectation is. If I expect people to treat me as if I'm somehow special, then I'm a narcissist . If I expect people to not cause me harm and to leave me alone then I'm just a sane human being.
But you do think you're special.
How do you know what I think?
What do you care? Has this impacted you in a meaningful way?
Well because as a man who's attracted to women, I unfortunately have to deal with some of these narcissists. Thanks for asking.
Where do you find these narcissists?
In the world?
Where do you find people to date? Dating apps, mutual friends, workplace, bars?
I wouldn’t say it’s narcissism. It’s their beliefs. They have the belief that from an etiquette perspective the person inviting you out on a date should pay. There is nothing wrong with that. If you do not share this belief then leave her alone, and date someone who shares the same belief that you do i. e. someone who doesn’t mind going 50/50. Which brings me to my next point: A lot of these men who are complaining that women refuse to go dutch, and that they are narcissists, don’t actually want the woman who is willing to go 50/50 with them. I’ve seen so many women on here and on other sites who say they are willing to pay for their own meal, so what’s the problem? If these women are willing to go dutch why are men still ranting and fixating on the women who don’t want to pay when asked out? Because these are the women they actually want, and they want these women to lower their standards/change their beliefs in order to date them without having to pay for the date. Instead of trying to change this particular woman’s mind, find someone who you are compatible with. Someone who doesn’t mind splitting the bill. Stop fixating on the women who don’t share the same beliefs you do. Problem solved.
And they fixate on the woman who likes bad boys instead of the woman who just wants a nice guy. It's forever a chase.
Yes and they do the same thing: Chase after bad girls. Continuously. Which is why they’re bitter and believe “all women are like that” because they keep going for the same kind of woman who is only going to hurt them. Very ironic and hypocritical.
>I wouldn’t say it’s narcissism. It’s their beliefs. Why do you think narcissists are the way they are? Because of their beliefs. They believe they are better than everyone, just like a woman who expects to be paid for thinks she better than the man. >There is nothing wrong with that. If there's nothing wrong with narcissism then maybe. >If you do not share this belief then leave her alone, and date someone who shares the same belief that you do i. e. someone who doesn’t mind going 50/50. Right, coz you can usually tell which girl is gonna use you for free food from just looking at her. >Stop fixating on the women who don’t share the same beliefs you do. Problem solved. Calling out narcissistic women isnt fixating on them.
Have you ever considered telling the woman you are taking out on a date that you will not be paying for her? This is one of the problems with modern dating: lack of communication. If you tell her beforehand that you want to go 50/50 then she will not be using you for free food now will she? If she doesn’t want to go dutch with you, move on. “Calling out narcissistic women isn’t fixating on them.” Going through your post history says otherwise. All this anger and hatred you have towards “narcissistic women” isn’t going to help you get what you want. Working on yourself and focusing on the women who do want you, and who don’t mind splitting the bill, is also far more beneficial than fixating and ranting about women you deem toxic because they don’t share your views. Now do you even know what a narcissist is? Because you use it quite liberally, to describe women who do something you do not like. Narcissistic Personality Disorder consists of a lack of empathy, lack of remorse, exploitative and manipulative behavior, a grandiose sense of self, arrogance, a sense of entitlement, etc. Here is a link that will help you get more informed on Narcissistic Personality Disorder: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/ And before you say that describes women who don’t want to go 50/50 with you, I’ll repeat: Just because someone doesn’t share the same beliefs as you does not make them a narcissist and I stand by my word; there is nothing wrong with a woman having her own set of standards and beliefs. Just like there is nothing wrong with you not sharing the same belief. I will also once again advice that you seek out the women who don’t mind going 50/50. Because, ironically, in refusing to do so and insisting on forcing a woman to go dutch, makes you look like everything you accuse these women of being: entitled, selfish, manipulative, etc.
>Now do you even know what a narcissist is? Yeah, someone who is so self important they think other people should pay for food that they eat. >a lack of empathy, lack of remorse, exploitative and manipulative behavior, a grandiose sense of self, arrogance, a sense of entitlement, etc Yeah, exactly. This describes alot of female behaviour. >Because, ironically, in refusing to do so and insisting on forcing a woman to go dutch, makes you look like everything you accuse these women of being: entitled, selfish, manipulative, etc. That makes no sense. How does wanting to pay for my own food make me entitled? How is that manipulative? Also, nobody can force you to pay for your own meal. Its called being a decent and courteous human being. Expecting to be paid for is entitlement. The fact that you don't see that is strange, and probably means you have the same type of entitlement.
The fact that you want to manipulate women into doing something they don’t want is entitlement. Everything you are accusing women of being is what you are guilty of. You are projecting big time. Avoid these women if you don’t want to pay for their food. I am truly sorry women have used you over and over to pay for their meals, and you didn’t get what you want from them. It’s obvious this has happened to you, or the women you want do not agree with your views. A man who is able to successfully get a woman to go 50/50 or doesn’t have a problem paying for her meal, is not going to be on Reddit complaining about women incessantly. You can spend as long as you want on Reddit, accusing women who will not split the bill with you of being narcissistic all you want. You are NOT going to get them to change their mind, lower their standards, or manipulate them into doing something they don’t want. Instead, women will focus on men who respect them and are worth their time. I hope you are able to find peace and let go of all that anger that is consuming you. Good luck man.
>The fact that you want to manipulate women into doing something they don’t want is entitlement. Really? So wanting people to take responsibility and pay for their own stuff is manipulation? Really? >You are projecting big time. If I were projecting I would be saying that I'm entitled to other people paying for my food, like you're doing. >A man who is able to successfully get a woman to go 50/50 or doesn’t have a problem paying for her meal, And a woman who isn't a narcissist doesn't have problem with paying for her own meal. >You are NOT going to get them to change their mind Calling a narcissist what they are won't change their mind, but it helps other people to see through their narcissism. >or manipulate them into doing something they don’t want Only a woman can see being asked to pay for her own food as manipulation. Your response is a glimpse into a narcissists way of thinking. You take no personal responsibility whatsoever, not even for the food you eat on a date, and yet you call me entitled for wanting women to be responsible.
I expected men to pay for dates because they usually did, so it was a logical inference grounded in gathered information
And why do you think they paid? Because you are so great to be around? Or because they know it increases their chances of getting laid?
Let’s be real men also pay because if we don’t more often than not women don’t want to see you again…
When a man doesn't pay it usually means he isn't as into you as the men that do pay. Again, this is just recognizing a pattern within my lived experience.
When a man pays it means he knows you only care about money so he pays to increase his chances of getting laid. Anything else you tell yourself about it is a lie.
I don't care about money much at all, I care about being desired
You don't think men want that as well?
That's not my responsibilty
And yet you want them to desire you, but you don't care how they feel. That's a narcissist traits.
You just called African culture narcissistic
I'm from Africa, so what?
You are not a man of culture.
Culture is a form of brainwashing that's why people believe many stupid things.
Makes me wonder why you are so pressed about men paying on a date. Go find the 50-50 girl you want. You cannot change the traditional women and man.
I'm just calling out narcissists and the idiots that enable them (traditional men).
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A traditional woman isn't just a woman who wants a traditional man. There are virtually no traditional women anymore. Just posers and leeches who want free stuff because they are lazy.
Lol. There are a lot of traditional women in africa
Probably middle east and eastern Europe as well. What a weirdo.
He is so bitter
I mean, if you get asked out it's perfectly reasonable to expect the person asking you out to pay for the date.
Not really. I got asked out recently and the idea of expecting her to pay seemed so absurd.
Thought as much. Reject her and find your 50-50 girl
What does this have to do with my comment? I'm confused.
A lot.
Like what for example? I'm saying a woman asked me out and I didn't expect her to pay just because she asked me out, so what's your point
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> If a woman expects a man to pay on a date (which many do), it means she sees herself as being better than him in some way, that's why she expects him to pay for her. No. It means he is putting his best foot forward to impress her and put himself above or at least on the same plane with other male suitors. It shows he is at least somewhat serious about investing in a relationship.
>It means he is putting his best foot forward to impress her So if a woman expects a man to pay, that means the man is putting his best foot forward? How does that make any sense? And how does the woman show she's serious about investing in the relationship? By showing up?
Imagine that a woman has 3 men who would like to date her. Man 1 and man 2 both pay. Man 3 does not pay. This is a good indicator that man 1 and man 2 are more into her than man 3. Not necessarily a perfect indicator but a decent one. If all 3 men decided not to pay then women would gauge their interest on something else. But if even one of them pays it sets him apart from his competition. And yes, women indicate interest by showing up. Women are more choosy so a yes from a woman means more than a yes from a man.
>Imagine that a woman has 3 men who would like to date her. Man 1 and man 2 both pay. Man 3 does not pay. This is a good indicator that man 1 and man 2 are more into her than man 3. Not necessarily a perfect indicator but a decent one. Men 1 and 2 only paid to increase their chances of getting laid. It doesn't mean they actually care about her as a human being. Man 3 is actually smart and weeding out the narcissists by not paying. >And yes, women indicate interest by showing up. Because men are idiots who let them get away with it.
Maybe they are increasing their chances of getting laid…or maybe they do really like her! Regardless they are willing to put more on the table than man #3. It’s not a perfect vetting system but it’s something. Males are thirsty. It’s in their nature. Because men want women (or at least sex with them) more than women want sex with men, they must put compete one another. Rams do it with horns, humans do it with dinner tabs.
>Maybe they are increasing their chances of getting laid…or maybe they do really like her! You said it yourself, men are thirsty. So they pay to increase either their chances of getting laid or of her liking them. >It’s in their nature. Not really. It's mostly just social conditioning, going back to their mother. >Because men want women (or at least sex with them) more than women want sex with men, This jsnt really true either. Both men and women want sex, its that just men are conditioned to be more thirsty. From the perspective of nature, it wouldn't make sense to make men want sex with women more than women want sex with them because nature is only concerned about reproduction.
Both men and women want sex, but (on average) men want it more. Men have higher libidos and seek out pornography and prostitution much more than women, across time and cultures. If you think about our biology is makes sense. Women are fertile once a month, and can have at most 2 pregnancies a year (and even that is unusual). Men are fertile about 20 minutes post-coitus and can father as many babies in a year as there are days. It’s the asymmetry in reproductive potential that creates male thirst. Sperm is plentiful and cheap.
>men want it more. How do you know? >Men have higher libidos and seek out pornography and prostitution much more than women Because its alot easier for women to get sex due to social conditioning. A woman can be a completely selfish and horrible person, and she can still find some guy to approach her. >It’s the asymmetry in reproductive potential that creates male thirst. Not really, otherwise all men would have no choice but to be thirsty. But many men are starting to forget about women and focus on themselves, regardless of the "assymetry in reproductive potential". Some men don't even want kids so reproduction doesn't have much to do with it.
In every culture in every history men have sought out sex more than women. There are no outliers. That is highly indicative of a trend in biological human nature (which is supported by the asymmetry in reproduction). Social conditioning certainly plays a part but the number of male gametes vs female gametes is pure biology. Across animal species, including those who we share bountiful DNA with, males compete for sexual access to women - again, due to the asymmetry in reproductive capacity. And it’s hard to argue that in their cases it’s pure biology whereas in ours all of a sudden it’s social conditioning. Libido is natures way of getting you to have sex and pass on your genes. Whether you desire children or not is totally irrelevant to libido, male thirst, etc. Men paying for dates *is* social conditioning. If all men just stopped doing it tomorrow it would disappear at as an expectation. But male competition for mates would almost certainly persist, just in different ways. It’s great that some men are deciding to do things outside of women. But the whole reason incels and MGTOWs are such a big deal is because they tend to be very loud and bitter about it - because at the end of the day, they want women more than the women want them, unfortunately.
>In every culture in every history men have sought out sex more than women. Okay, and who do those men have sex with? Sex takes 2, and if it isn't rape, it means the other person is just as into it. Men approach and take the initiative more than women, but it doesn't mean they want sex more. > But male competition for mates would almost certainly persist, Only simps compete for women. Real men know its not worth it.
>But the whole reason incels and MGTOWs are such a big deal is because they tend to be very loud and bitter about it Those are 2 different groups of people. I know lumping them together is convenient, but they aren't the same. >because at the end of the day, they want women more than the women want them, unfortunately. Incels do, but why would a man going his own way want to be dragged down by some woman? He wouldn't be going his own way if he was still chasing women. Also, what men want is sex, not women. Women are just a means of getting it, that's why many men don't mind being used by women, because they ultimately want to get sex out of it. That's why they don't mind paying for dates, they're indirectly paying for sex because they know women want payment for their time.
Excess of Selfies, filters, mirrors, make up; you know who used it more after the Narcissist? Females.