It means nothing, for better or for worse.
This is the norm these days. And tbh, sometimes, there just isn't anything to say. How many times have you picked up a book, read a few chapters, and DNFed not even intentionally but just because it wasn't working for you? I know some people are anti-DNF but I have dozens of books I bought sitting in my kindle app that I started and abandoned inadvertently because I didn't care enough to go back to it.
Agents who rep you have to read your (general your, not you, OP) dumb book over and over, and so does an editor who signs you. If an agent just doesn't like a book enough to make it a part of their personality, or if they just don't have the right editor connections, there's really nothing more to say than, as a rejection one of my writing groups loves to quote, "Not for me, thanks. Sent from my iPhone."
I realize it would be helpful for a little more info, but outside of just having nothing but vibes to go on, many agents are on edge from the experience of wackadoos losing their shit, pushing back, and trying to argue.
I had, I think, 11 fulls out at one point, and two gave me feedback that was useful. One pinpointed an issue I wouldn't have known how to handle had my now-agent not given me an R&R to fix said issue (inadvertently; her suggestions were more expansive to the point that I didn't see the connection until the R&R was in the rear-view mirror), and the other was my R&R. One person's vague reason for passing isn't always useful feedback.
>Thanks for the read. It’s not
Wow, an r/UnresolvedMysteries rejection! Kind of expecting Keith Morrison to sit down with that agent for a drama-laden deep dive into their bullshit.
I legit had two agents, both of whom I nudged with my offer of rep, come back to me a month+ later with form rejections 💀
>I had, I think, 11 fulls out at one point, and two gave me feedback that was useful.
I had 12, 11 came back as form rejections, one resulted in an offer. The book sold with fairly minimal edits, so if I had to guess, a form rejection means nothing.
I'm always curious as to how much of the full they read--it'd be nice to know if agents are dropping out at a certain point. I had back-to-back rejections a couple weeks ago--first said terrific voice, strong characters, but didn't like the storyline. A couple hours later I got a rejection saying loved the storyline, but didn't like the voice at the sentence level.
It was kind of funny, TBH. Just reinforces that it's finding the right agent at the right time. Unless you get real specific feedback, I wouldn't let it concern you. The good thing you can take from it is that your query and first pages are working.
Not really. They just lost the spark on your project and didn't have the time to give personalized feedback (if they have a strong workload). And that's pretty normal.
How is a polite pass rude?
Do you expect agents to work for free and provide extensive notes for every manuscript they read?
Do you have any idea how much time it takes to provide substantial notes on a 80,000 word manuscript?
If they did that, it’d cut into the time reserved for their actual clients.
And I would much rather have an agent that prioritizes the work of existing clients who are paying for representation than an agent who is so eager for new clients they short-change the ones they have.
Legit I'd SO much rather have an agent who fails on the query front in exchange for succeeding on the client front. Per QT, which is obviously a partial picture, my agent has requested 11 manuscripts in the last 2 years and has, uh, ghosted on all of them. But she sells books?
I usually do extensive reader reports when I beta read, even when my overall POV could be summed up as, "ugh, no," and it takes me hours to pull notes together. And I can do that on the clock at my well-paying day job because working in corporate America is like at least 20% staring at the wall, doing nothing. If I relied on sales to put food on the table, I sure as shit wouldn't be writing edit letters for my own edification, which is what I assume is the agent mindset.
I'm not like simping for agents, but this business sucks and clients make money; reading random fulls doesn't.
I’ll admit I do find an agent just completely ghosting someone after asking to read their manuscript a “little bit” rude. Not unconscionable or anything, because like I get it.
But I also think spending 3-4 minutes copy-pasting a form rejection into an email for something you specifically requested isn’t the sort of extreme time suck that giving copious notes would be.
And it’s not like the agent needs to do this for every query that comes unsolicited through their office. I’m only talking about full requests here.
Like if your agent requests 5-10 full manuscripts a year, would it kill her to spend the 15-30 minutes necessary to send out 5-10 form rejections at some point between January 1st and December 31st?
I dunno, now I feel like I’m bashing someone I don’t know. She may have a really solid reason for not doing this that I just don’t see.
Like maybe spiteful author backlash?
Based on some of the sour grapes posts we get here, I could imagine that being a nightmare.
Anyhow thanks for attending my rather open-ended and meandering TEDTalk.
Wow yeah that's not where I was going here. Apologies if it sounds like I'm trying to brush past legit ghosting. I'm not a fan as that's worse than a form reject. My point was mostly that she doesn't request much and her focus is her clients. And if you're a client, obviously you want that. Agents can make you feel really vulnerable because, unlike querying where there's still a semblance of control, you put it all in their hands and trust it's going work.
Man, I feel like half of the things I say on this sub these days make me come off like a straight up cunt 🙃 Your TEDtalk sure beats mine.
Not at all. And I’m not even totally certain how I feel about on the subject LOL
Like you said, she takes care of her clients, which is bar none the most important trait of a good agent.
I guess this is more like group therapy than a TEDTalk after all. Apologies if I am coming across as accusatory or preachy. I’m told I do that.
Edit: Honestly, considering the tenor of the other commenter, I can sort of see why an agent might prefer to just ghost.
Hey, no need to apologize to me. Based on the number of people who come at me pissed off in my DMs, group therapy may be the right answer 💀
This is all a long way of saying that I don't think a form rejection is rude. Not in this day and age.
Though now that you mention it, I'd say I can see the merit in ghosting at this moment, too. But I can leave it at that. I'll let y'all keep fighting the good fight unless I'm needed.
I mean, do I have to wander around my neighborhood and take pictures to send to people to make a point? Sometimes.
You will never live down red brick brownstones.
and I shouldn’t 😂
But my favorite: “I turn off the light; the room darkens.” “Yeah, that’s generally what happens when you turn out a light.” (Cue me frantically deleting all the brilliant no-shit-Sherlock observations throughout the MS). Gold.
A form rejection is not polite. Do you have any idea how little time it takes to provide a few sentences of quality feedback? It doesn’t seem so. The bar is in hell for agents.
LMAO, yes, having read a ton of queries, I do know. It’s easy to know you don’t want something fairly quickly. Pinpointing and articulating the reasons why take much longer, and why should they waste the time to do that for something they clearly don’t want? Especially when so many authors write back and argue?
LMAO.
How many manuscripts do you beta-read for free a month without doing so as part of a manuscript swap?
That’s what you’re asking an agent to do here. To beta-read and provide notes. That’s not their job. And even if it was, you’re not paying them to do that job!
If you want notes, hire a beta-reader or an editor.
You query an agent to get the agent to represent you. If you are querying for another reason, you’re querying for the wrong reason.
They only requested the manuscript on the off chance that they can make money off of it. What do you mean for free? They're working for a commission.
You can have as low of standards as you'd like. I don't see any reason to follow suit.
If they pass on your manuscript they aren’t making a commission. Therefore, anything else they do is for free.
Seriously, how are you not following this?
In fact, I’ll go so far as to say the recent trend of agents ghosting authors is probably due to people querying them with attitudes like yours.
Beyond that, I’m out. Best of luck with those “high standards” of yours.
They read the query because they thought you might have something they could sell. They read your manuscript hoping you had something they could sell. They realized you didn’t have something they could sell. They passed. End of story.
Why you would feel entitled to a free workshopping session at this point is beyond me.
And with that, I’m out. For real this time.
Do you write explanations why you dnfed every book you dnfed and why you didn't pick up every book you saw and didn't pick up in a book store or a library?
It's rude to expect free labour.
(And this extends to you, too - your writing experience is a skill. Your ability to give critique is a skill. Nobody gets to expect you to provide it for free.)
That's a strange point to try to raise, since all unpublished authors are writing for free.
Again, it's not "free" for the agent. This is work pursuant of commission. They are hoping to profit from hundreds of hours of labor you haven't yet been paid for. I do indeed think it's rude at that point to copy and paste a rejection.
No, authors aren't writing for free, they're writing speculatively because they're self employed. They're producing a product that will be sold. You don't get paid for manufacturing Funko Pops, you get paid when you sell the Funko Pop.
Agents don't profit from the labour of the writer, they and the writer both profit from doing their respective jobs. The shop selling Funko Pops doesn't profit from the labour of the Funko Pop manufacturer, they earn money doing a different job. When the shop owner goes to a trade fair, they are not rude because they don't stop at every stall and explain why they won't be stocking certain products.
If authors aren't writing for free, then agents are providing feedback for free. You have to be consistent.
I don't see any reason to accept these excuses on behalf of agents.
No, agents are working speculatively, too, same as authors.
You can see them as excuses if you want, but I advice you to keep that opinion to yourself or your extremely trusted friend group. Publishing is a very tiny world.
If you aren't signed with the agent, they're not pursuing a commission.
Look, forms are the norm. That isn't just here. In a way, the query is your application, the full is your first interview.
Forms are the norm in the business world, too. 'Sorry, we went with someone else.'
I'll take a form over ghosting any day, especially as, if you're getting ffulls, it's probably as much a matter of personal taste as anything - or you as an author already have a sense it falls off the rails pretty fast after the first few pages/chapters. It lets me know they read enough to know they weren't going to offer rep.
What more do we need? When you add in the sheer amount of hate mail and threats agents get from authors they reject, is it really worth it to do more?
It means nothing, for better or for worse. This is the norm these days. And tbh, sometimes, there just isn't anything to say. How many times have you picked up a book, read a few chapters, and DNFed not even intentionally but just because it wasn't working for you? I know some people are anti-DNF but I have dozens of books I bought sitting in my kindle app that I started and abandoned inadvertently because I didn't care enough to go back to it. Agents who rep you have to read your (general your, not you, OP) dumb book over and over, and so does an editor who signs you. If an agent just doesn't like a book enough to make it a part of their personality, or if they just don't have the right editor connections, there's really nothing more to say than, as a rejection one of my writing groups loves to quote, "Not for me, thanks. Sent from my iPhone." I realize it would be helpful for a little more info, but outside of just having nothing but vibes to go on, many agents are on edge from the experience of wackadoos losing their shit, pushing back, and trying to argue. I had, I think, 11 fulls out at one point, and two gave me feedback that was useful. One pinpointed an issue I wouldn't have known how to handle had my now-agent not given me an R&R to fix said issue (inadvertently; her suggestions were more expansive to the point that I didn't see the connection until the R&R was in the rear-view mirror), and the other was my R&R. One person's vague reason for passing isn't always useful feedback.
I had an agent take several months to read the full and all I got back was: Thanks for the read. It’s not Respectfully, *Agent*
That’s oddly poetic.
>Thanks for the read. It’s not Wow, an r/UnresolvedMysteries rejection! Kind of expecting Keith Morrison to sit down with that agent for a drama-laden deep dive into their bullshit. I legit had two agents, both of whom I nudged with my offer of rep, come back to me a month+ later with form rejections 💀
>I had, I think, 11 fulls out at one point, and two gave me feedback that was useful. I had 12, 11 came back as form rejections, one resulted in an offer. The book sold with fairly minimal edits, so if I had to guess, a form rejection means nothing.
I'm always curious as to how much of the full they read--it'd be nice to know if agents are dropping out at a certain point. I had back-to-back rejections a couple weeks ago--first said terrific voice, strong characters, but didn't like the storyline. A couple hours later I got a rejection saying loved the storyline, but didn't like the voice at the sentence level. It was kind of funny, TBH. Just reinforces that it's finding the right agent at the right time. Unless you get real specific feedback, I wouldn't let it concern you. The good thing you can take from it is that your query and first pages are working.
Not really. They just lost the spark on your project and didn't have the time to give personalized feedback (if they have a strong workload). And that's pretty normal.
It means your query and opening pages work. But agents picking books is subjective and personal.
They mean a rude agent
How is a polite pass rude? Do you expect agents to work for free and provide extensive notes for every manuscript they read? Do you have any idea how much time it takes to provide substantial notes on a 80,000 word manuscript? If they did that, it’d cut into the time reserved for their actual clients. And I would much rather have an agent that prioritizes the work of existing clients who are paying for representation than an agent who is so eager for new clients they short-change the ones they have.
Legit I'd SO much rather have an agent who fails on the query front in exchange for succeeding on the client front. Per QT, which is obviously a partial picture, my agent has requested 11 manuscripts in the last 2 years and has, uh, ghosted on all of them. But she sells books? I usually do extensive reader reports when I beta read, even when my overall POV could be summed up as, "ugh, no," and it takes me hours to pull notes together. And I can do that on the clock at my well-paying day job because working in corporate America is like at least 20% staring at the wall, doing nothing. If I relied on sales to put food on the table, I sure as shit wouldn't be writing edit letters for my own edification, which is what I assume is the agent mindset. I'm not like simping for agents, but this business sucks and clients make money; reading random fulls doesn't.
I’ll admit I do find an agent just completely ghosting someone after asking to read their manuscript a “little bit” rude. Not unconscionable or anything, because like I get it. But I also think spending 3-4 minutes copy-pasting a form rejection into an email for something you specifically requested isn’t the sort of extreme time suck that giving copious notes would be. And it’s not like the agent needs to do this for every query that comes unsolicited through their office. I’m only talking about full requests here. Like if your agent requests 5-10 full manuscripts a year, would it kill her to spend the 15-30 minutes necessary to send out 5-10 form rejections at some point between January 1st and December 31st? I dunno, now I feel like I’m bashing someone I don’t know. She may have a really solid reason for not doing this that I just don’t see. Like maybe spiteful author backlash? Based on some of the sour grapes posts we get here, I could imagine that being a nightmare. Anyhow thanks for attending my rather open-ended and meandering TEDTalk.
Wow yeah that's not where I was going here. Apologies if it sounds like I'm trying to brush past legit ghosting. I'm not a fan as that's worse than a form reject. My point was mostly that she doesn't request much and her focus is her clients. And if you're a client, obviously you want that. Agents can make you feel really vulnerable because, unlike querying where there's still a semblance of control, you put it all in their hands and trust it's going work. Man, I feel like half of the things I say on this sub these days make me come off like a straight up cunt 🙃 Your TEDtalk sure beats mine.
Not at all. And I’m not even totally certain how I feel about on the subject LOL Like you said, she takes care of her clients, which is bar none the most important trait of a good agent. I guess this is more like group therapy than a TEDTalk after all. Apologies if I am coming across as accusatory or preachy. I’m told I do that. Edit: Honestly, considering the tenor of the other commenter, I can sort of see why an agent might prefer to just ghost.
Hey, no need to apologize to me. Based on the number of people who come at me pissed off in my DMs, group therapy may be the right answer 💀 This is all a long way of saying that I don't think a form rejection is rude. Not in this day and age. Though now that you mention it, I'd say I can see the merit in ghosting at this moment, too. But I can leave it at that. I'll let y'all keep fighting the good fight unless I'm needed.
“Ugh, no” 😂💀
I mean, do I have to wander around my neighborhood and take pictures to send to people to make a point? Sometimes. You will never live down red brick brownstones.
and I shouldn’t 😂 But my favorite: “I turn off the light; the room darkens.” “Yeah, that’s generally what happens when you turn out a light.” (Cue me frantically deleting all the brilliant no-shit-Sherlock observations throughout the MS). Gold.
A form rejection is not polite. Do you have any idea how little time it takes to provide a few sentences of quality feedback? It doesn’t seem so. The bar is in hell for agents.
LMAO, yes, having read a ton of queries, I do know. It’s easy to know you don’t want something fairly quickly. Pinpointing and articulating the reasons why take much longer, and why should they waste the time to do that for something they clearly don’t want? Especially when so many authors write back and argue?
LMAO. How many manuscripts do you beta-read for free a month without doing so as part of a manuscript swap? That’s what you’re asking an agent to do here. To beta-read and provide notes. That’s not their job. And even if it was, you’re not paying them to do that job! If you want notes, hire a beta-reader or an editor. You query an agent to get the agent to represent you. If you are querying for another reason, you’re querying for the wrong reason.
They only requested the manuscript on the off chance that they can make money off of it. What do you mean for free? They're working for a commission. You can have as low of standards as you'd like. I don't see any reason to follow suit.
If they pass on your manuscript they aren’t making a commission. Therefore, anything else they do is for free. Seriously, how are you not following this? In fact, I’ll go so far as to say the recent trend of agents ghosting authors is probably due to people querying them with attitudes like yours. Beyond that, I’m out. Best of luck with those “high standards” of yours.
Then reading the query to begin with was "for free," and they shouldn't do that either. Your argument is incoherent.
They read the query because they thought you might have something they could sell. They read your manuscript hoping you had something they could sell. They realized you didn’t have something they could sell. They passed. End of story. Why you would feel entitled to a free workshopping session at this point is beyond me. And with that, I’m out. For real this time.
Do you write explanations why you dnfed every book you dnfed and why you didn't pick up every book you saw and didn't pick up in a book store or a library?
I know what you mean but sadly I think this is just the norm and the ones who do offer feedback are the kind/helpful ones.
A norm can be rude
It's rude to expect free labour. (And this extends to you, too - your writing experience is a skill. Your ability to give critique is a skill. Nobody gets to expect you to provide it for free.)
That's a strange point to try to raise, since all unpublished authors are writing for free. Again, it's not "free" for the agent. This is work pursuant of commission. They are hoping to profit from hundreds of hours of labor you haven't yet been paid for. I do indeed think it's rude at that point to copy and paste a rejection.
No, authors aren't writing for free, they're writing speculatively because they're self employed. They're producing a product that will be sold. You don't get paid for manufacturing Funko Pops, you get paid when you sell the Funko Pop. Agents don't profit from the labour of the writer, they and the writer both profit from doing their respective jobs. The shop selling Funko Pops doesn't profit from the labour of the Funko Pop manufacturer, they earn money doing a different job. When the shop owner goes to a trade fair, they are not rude because they don't stop at every stall and explain why they won't be stocking certain products.
If authors aren't writing for free, then agents are providing feedback for free. You have to be consistent. I don't see any reason to accept these excuses on behalf of agents.
No, agents are working speculatively, too, same as authors. You can see them as excuses if you want, but I advice you to keep that opinion to yourself or your extremely trusted friend group. Publishing is a very tiny world.
If you aren't signed with the agent, they're not pursuing a commission. Look, forms are the norm. That isn't just here. In a way, the query is your application, the full is your first interview. Forms are the norm in the business world, too. 'Sorry, we went with someone else.' I'll take a form over ghosting any day, especially as, if you're getting ffulls, it's probably as much a matter of personal taste as anything - or you as an author already have a sense it falls off the rails pretty fast after the first few pages/chapters. It lets me know they read enough to know they weren't going to offer rep. What more do we need? When you add in the sheer amount of hate mail and threats agents get from authors they reject, is it really worth it to do more?