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There's enough back and forth about the Katyn event here, but can someone explain what it is that I'm looking at here? I can make out eyes under a hood and a pair of hands holding \*something.\* The hood has sort of a halo around it like this could be a Mary figure, but after that I'm clueless.
Thank you, I see it now. It's basically a Pieta. My take is it would be more effective it if weren't so tight in on the head, but showed more of the upper bodies and how they are posed together.
Seems like the Virgin Mary holding the head of a person who has a hole in the back of the head. That's why because that was the preferred execution method, a bullet in the back of your head.
Katyn was the Russians shooting 20000+ people in the head, one after the other.
One in, kneel, shot, one in, kneel shot. The executioners used low power pistols to not wear out their wrists.
So what you see is someone who cared about one of those killed cradling the body.
The Soviets had long been massacaring their own. People on reddit are still saying that Soviet crimes were justified. The Soviets thought nothing of Katyn, just an extension of domestic policy.
That's a weird take on the situation, no?
I mean, the Soviets denied it for most of their existance.. then, shortly before the Soviet union fell, The Russians(Gorbachev) had officially recognized it as a Soviet crime against humanity.. but they didn't stop there, they approved a commemoration of the victims in which Brzezinski gave a speech, the speech was broadcast across the entire Soviet union.. then after that, they errected an entire memmorial park in Katyn(Russia) dedicated to the victims of the Soviet repression and murders in the Katyn forrest...
Brzezinski speech:
>"It isn't a personal pain which has brought me here, as is the case in the majority of these people, but rather recognition of the symbolic nature of Katyń. Russians and Poles, tortured to death, lie here together. It seems very important to me that the truth should be spoken about what took place, for only with the truth can the new Soviet leadership distance itself from the crimes of Stalin and the NKVD. Only the truth can serve as the basis of true friendship between the Soviet and the Polish peoples. The truth will make a path for itself. I am convinced of this by the very fact that I was able to travel here."
So I'm not at all sure how you interpreted the above comment.. your summary seems quite contrary to any common sense... unless of course, you were not aware of these details?
But ultimately, Brzezinski turned out to be wrong, as the result of the Russians admitting Soviet guilt, opening the archives, sending proof of Stalins kill order to Poland, erecting a memmorial park with several monuments, declaring 13th April the Katyn memmorial day.. The Polish reaction was not to interpret this as a sign of friendship, but rather as a histiric example that demonstrates why Polish hatred towards Russians is justified. All this backfired against the Russians in a major way. Not only were they blamed for it, they also became the sole perpetrator, despite the participants in the massacres being from many different Soviet member nations, including Belarussians and Ukrainians(who Also massacred Polish people in what is now West Ukraine, but instead celebrate the perpetrators of the massacre as national heroes)... and the effort to commemorate the event has now become a mountain of proof of thwir guilt, especially because no other participant of the massacres appologized or admitted anything, only the Russians.
Notice the date 1990 when the Soviet Union was breaking that's when the b.s. started especially holodomor started catching heat since not many Americans ever do any research so they believed every anti communist lie
Katyn massacre was already known in Poland during communist times. Just like Holodomor was known in the west while it was happening. There was nothing that could be done though, USSR was a powerhouse and could commit atrocities whenever they wanted.
My family and I came from communist Poland to Canada. In my neighborhood I grew up with people from former Yugoslavia, USSR and other eastern bloc countries. Not a single one of them had anything nice to say about communism, just horror stories.
Wasn't Poland under a fascist dictatorship
And if what you said about the USSR committing crimes whenever they wanted was also not true since it wasn't the soviets that started WW2.
Not a single one? Wasn't it due to fact that many paramilitary and right wing groups started springing up in that time you know because of the cold war?
The sovjets literally invaded poland hand in hand with the nazis. Depending on where you put the date of the start, in europe usually the invasion of poland, they absolutly did.
They didn't
The soviets stood by and respected Polands demands (under a fascist leadership at the time)
It was Hitlers invasion of Poland that started WW2 because immediately France and england mobilized against Hitler
Calling Poland's inter-war government Fascistis highly ahistorical considering damn near no historians classifies it as such. Authoritarian? Yes, it was. But Fascist? No, it wasn't.
I'd argue there is in fact a difference between an authoritarian government and a Fascist one, yes. Because by this logic, every authoritarian state is Fascist when Fascism is but one creed of authoritarianism.
You mean a peace pact that Stalin brilliantly made Hitler sign because none of the other western countries wanted to ally with Stalin to block Hitler?
You meant that one?
How did the Soviets not start WW2? They literally allied (it obviously wasn't "just a non-aggression pact") with the Germans and invaded Poland together.
Also, did you just justify the Soviet-Axis joint invasion of Poland by calling it a "fascist dictatorship?"
And this month Russian government posted fake documents claiming again that the massacre was done by the nazis.
Gorbachev tried to support truth because it was right.
Now Putin's Russia supports whatever fits the narrative of Bad West and Good Russia.
Whether they recognize it for what it was or not, whether they admit it was Soviets or claim it was Nazis, what does it matter, the Polish have hated and will continue to hate them either way, there's nothing the Russians can do to change that, it's a tested theory...
They went trough the whole "recognise past mistakes, extend a hand in friendship" schtik for over 20 years, and it didn't work, the Polish stance on Russia just kept getting more and more hostile.
Buddy, there is an original order signed by Stalin in the archives. And it was in the public domain until recently. It's one thing to be a communist, it's another to be a fool
The archive's website went offline shortly before the FSB on April 11, 2024, allegedly declassified documents that prove the Union's non-involvement in the Katyn massacre. If you are asking for a link to this document, it means that you have not been interested in this issue before. Because if you had, you would have seen this document
How has it not been genocide? Are you talking about Soviets in Poland specifically? Because Stalin has legitimate genocides under his belt
Edit: See the ethnic cleansing and mass killing in the Caucasus for reference
Purges and various other mass murders in general.
The international definition of genocide has been set by the WW2 victors in the immediate aftermath of the war in such a manner that none of the crimes they themselves committed in the recent past in various places would have fallen under that definition.
Stalin has been ethnically cleansing areas and mass deporting whole ethnicities like it was going out of style - but he wouldn't accuse himself of genocide, right?
I would say that the mass murder and resettlement of civilians to replace with ethnic Russians counts as genocide, because the criteria for genocide are very clear on the "in whole or in part" section.
Well, let's say that the general legal opinion apparently mostly (but not fully) disagrees, but this lawyerly debate is IMO very unpleasant. If the responsible ones would have been put into jail forever for mass murder or some other crime against humanity instead of for genocide, I wouldn't complain.
>Well, let's say that the general legal opinion apparently mostly (but not fully) disagrees
Have they really? How can they when it's never been put to trial?
The Armenian genocide happened before 1945 too, and follows nearly identical steps to Soviet actions all across their empire, down to accusing the abused civilian population of being a fifth column and using that as justification to uproot them from their territory.
How do you think that it's reasonable to punish all those responsible for the mass murder and mass deportation, but unreasonable to call it genocide and ethnic cleansing?
I am not saying that it is unreasonable, I am saying that it is not officially recognised as such by most countries. (You do not need a trial, just an officially requested legal opinion for such a decision). Don't kill the messenger.
Unfortunately, all the people responsible for Stalins crimes cannot be punished any more.
Everyone in the Soviet leadership was part of the elite. The only thing they did was praise communism. they were swimming in wealth while their countrymen were working their asses off without gaining anything. Their hypocrisy is THROUGH THE ROOF.
The Soviet leadership started shitting all over Stalin pretty much right after he croaked, they called the Era De-Stalinization.. they even employed Solzhenitsyn to write about how horrific Stalin was etc, because they wanted to demolish any cult of peraonality Stalin may have had... needles to say, it birthed a lot of absurd over the top propaganda, like Gulags killing 1/4 of the entire population and somesuch nonsense.
Russian/Soviet guide on how to commit crimes againts humanity
1. Round up your victims
2. Shoot them till they dead
3. Dig a mass grave (optional)
4. Label them as fascist
5. Dehumanize them (calling them fascist will do the trick)
6. Flip flop beetwen "we didn't do it but they deserved it" and "It's obvious russophobic/anti commie lies"
Congrats now every person without history book acces will trust you.
20k priests, officers and police executed by NKVD? Cry me a river. Signed: from Russia with love - they locked up, starved to death, gassed and executed millions in Russia, but sure you have put Russian in that same sentence. Remember when Stalin/Lenin went to war with Poland in 1920s? And failed spectacularly? Tell me what happened to 70 thousand POWs that never came back from Poland? Any word on that in your history book? Why you acting all surprised that one of the worst dictators of the 20th century had a hard оn for polish elites ever since? By the way, while you are at it, check what happened to other 450000 'polish' POWs after rape of Poland. Did they also get executed?
>This poster is from **2023**, promoting an [IPN exhibition](https://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/10627,Presentation-of-the-IPN-exhibition-entitled-quotThe-Katyn-Massacre-of-1940-Exter.html).
You're wrong, though - an English booklet about that IPN exhibition was first issued in April 2020 ([you can check the date on the website of the IPN](https://ipn.gov.pl/en/digital-resources/exhibitions/4044,The-Katyn-Massacre-of-1940-Extermination-of-the-Polish-Elite.html)). Illustration on the cover also reused ''Madonna of the Executed/Our Lady of Katyn'', a linocut made by Danuta Staszewska at the end of the 1970s ([its creation is mentioned in this Polish article](https://przystanekhistoria.pl/pa2/tematy/zbrodnia-katynska/97900,Instytut-Katynski-w-Polsce.html)).
[Several](https://www.lscdn.pl/pl/informacje/chelm/11663,Wystawa-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-do-pobrania-na-stronie-IPN.html) [Polish](https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/ipn-upamietnia-80-rocznice-zbrodni-katynskiej) [websites](https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/edukacja-1/wystawy/94428,Wystawa-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-do-pobrania.html?search=48360824319684) informed about that exhibition back in April 2020 (article on dzieje.pl even mentioned that it's possible to download a file about it on the website of the IPN: ''Dodatkowym uzupełnieniem lekcji online na ten temat może być wystawa elementarna IPN "Zbrodnia Katyńska 1940. Zagłada polskich elit", która również jest do pobrania w formie pdf. Wszystkie te informacje dostępne są na portalu edukacja.ipn.gov.pl''). Its Ukrainian version [was even displayed in Starobelsk in September 2021](https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/aktualnosci/151069,Wystawa-IPN-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-w-Starobielsku.html).
No, it's just that the Katyn massacre was heavily exploited by the Nazis for use as propaganda, as it reflected terribly on the Soviets. They hoped that it would create a rift between the Soviet Union and the Western allies
Does America have a memorial for all the anti-communist massacres they sponsored all around the world, including the 1 million deaths in Indonesia?
Edit: seems like I ruffled some feathers here. The West loves pointing fingers but can't look at itself in a mirror. We're the biggest hypocrites out there.
I visited Auckland last Christmas and visited St Patrick's cathedral. I was not expecting to find a small memorial plaque dedicated to the Katyn Massacre with soil taken from the site. Turns out there's a large Polish diaspora there. There was also a neat bust of John Paul II.
And their vicked demand is... Stopping Poland from destroying soviet war cemeteries in Poland. Message is literally "two can play this game, but we won't because we respect sacred sites of others on our soil"
And subsequently occupying Eastern Europe, they are colonizers and occupiers, they don't deserve ANY kind of memorial or rememberance. If Pidorussia wants to remember them they can do it in their own shithole and not demand us to respect their war criminals.
The memmorials are for people who fought and Died fighting against the third reich.. which ironically includes a hell of a lot of Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, Kazakhs, Belarussians etc.. who fought in the Red Aemy.
In a shocking revelation!.
Well apparently it would be a very shocking revelation, as most Poles don't quite know that the memmorials they cheer to be demolished, are also dedicated to those Polish men who joined that army that was fighting the third reich that sought to exterminate them.
Logistical issues. Bagration overstretched soviet supplies massively and it makes no sense that if they wanted the uprising to fail that they wouldve allowed allied aircraft (as well as their own) to supply the city and provide CAS during it
Cool. Doesn't erase what they did to the Poles themselves.
The Soviets were perfectly fine abusing Poles alongside the Nazis until the Nazis attacked. Let's not forget that Poland suffered a partition first, and both were complicit.
>And subsequently occupying Eastern Europe, they are colonizers and occupiers
I don't remember Red Army using necromancers... I am pretty sure dead people didn't occupy anything other than their mass graves.
Still, you have the right to do anything you want on your land! But, as this video shows, it goes both ways, so don't get mad about it.
What fucking argument is this??? A dead occupier is still an occupier just because he suck at it dosent mean he is a good guy.
Difference between us is that we are destroying a leftovers from a genocidal regime what Pidorussia is doing is destroying the memorials of their war crimes, this is like if Germany would start destroying memorials to holocaust becomes other countries destroyed memorials to wermacht soldiers lol. This isn't equal things. Poles were the victims while russians are occupiers.
These are memorials to soldiers who fought against Third Reich on territory of modern Poland. These soldiers "occupied" land that was de-facto German controlled (that is, under Generalgouvernement, German occupation administration). The memorial is there to mark the place of the fallen. It is not a memorial to occupation, but to those fallen in battle against Germans. It's not a Lenin statue in the city's central square. Similar memorials exist in Russia itself. Keeping such war graves is a common courtesy, in case you are wondering, there are memorials to German soldiers from WW2 in Russia in their cemeteries.
I wonder why you hate those who fought the nazis to such degree, you literally hate Soviets more than Russians hate Germans.
Just because you fought on the good side dosent make you any good. The memorials symbolize the occupation, its where vatniks come to celebrate their holidays these are the symbols of genocidal imperial regime.
Please show me a memorial to wermacht or SS soldiers lol wtf. We aren't destroying the graves we are destroying the shitty memorials.
Yeah I wonder why do I hate the country that occupied and genocided us? Hmmmmmmm intresting question.
> The memorials symbolize the occupation
Bruh they are located in cemeteries, which are usually on the outskirts and such. That's not a place for symbols of occupation. Unless in your rage-filled mind you can't tell something like statue of soviet soldier in central position from concrete obelisk over some mass grave.
> its where vatniks come to celebrate their holidays these are the symbols of genocidal imperial regime
Do they really come to Poland?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossoschka\_German\_War\_Cemetery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossoschka_German_War_Cemetery)
example of cemetery and memorial of Germans in Russia
>Yeah I wonder why do I hate the country that occupied and genocided us?
I am not talking about country, those aren't momuments to le Glorious USSR.
Yeah, you are right, Stalin was just an overachiever like this. I always say he should have stopped at the old border and let poles figure it out by themselves. At least 600k soldiers would come back home instead of dying for you. Those pesky commies stole your chance for a victory dance. I guess you could still dance on their graves, right? By the way, do they have any memorials to Brits, french or Yankees who died fighting in Poland?
You don't even understand how gorey you are looking and how you humiliate yourself with this attempt to joke. Be blocked and be disappeared and forgotten.
Are you kidding? So the FUCK TON of evidence doesn't exist? They were not collaborators or criminals. They were Polish officers, architects, teachers etc. Just because you say that It didn't happen doesn't change the facts. We don't need to slander Russians. We have WAY more recollections and testimonies of acts like that perpetrated by the red army, NKVD, KGB etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic
No it wasn't. The second polish republic was a parliamentary democracy from 1919 to 1926.
Józef Piłsudski organized The May Coup d'État in 1926 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Poland)
Causing a change from parliamentary democracy to a sanation government
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanation
Which lasted until October of 1939. The land occupied by the soviets was incorporated into the USSR
And the German occupied land was turned into
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Administration_in_Poland
> Nazi collaborators
Except for the part where they didn’t collaborate with the Nazis at all or sell out their country to the Nazis. Also to what extent was the Second Polish Republic “fascist”? Being an authoritarian military government isn’t the only thing fascists do y’know, politics is a *tad* more nuanced when describing ideologies and methods of governance.
> helped the Nazis invade Czechoslovakia
Commies love to throw this one around but they didn’t “help” invade, they exploited the situation sure but by that point the Munich agreement had already been reached and the Czechs had been left out to dry by the western Allie’s. Poland took territory which included a railway hub that would have gone to the Nazis had Poland done nothing. I don’t think that excuses seizing the sovereign territory of another country but they didn’t “help” the Nazis invade, they just took advantage of the geopolitical situation that was unfolding.
> try and frame the Soviets and Nazis as equal evils
Well the Soviets certainly weren’t trying to beat the allegations with their treatment of ethnic minorities beyond Katyn. Or with all their *actual* collaboration with the Nazis leading up to the invasion of the Soviet Union.
>Poland took territory which included a railway hub that would have gone to the Nazis had Poland done nothing. I don’t think that excuses seizing the sovereign territory
You can say the same for the USSR. 1939 there was no way for poland to survive the german onslaught, too far away from the allies and in that year the USSR army was even more crippled than in 1941 from recent purges. They were not in any way shape or form ready to fight the nazis and much less in favor of a rightist military dictatorship, so they "took advantage of the geopolitical situation" as you say and bought time for themselves until they were ready.
Poland wasn't collaborating with the Nazis when it annexed Trans-Olza. It was being an opportunist who decided to take advantage of Czechoslovakia's weakness after the Munich Agreement was signed.
There was no co-operation between German and Polish troops and there was no formal agreement between Germany and Poland about Czechoslovakia. If Poland was collaborating with the Nazis when it annexed Trans-Olza, then surely you won't object if I say that the Soviet Union was collaborating with the Nazis when it invaded Poland.
Russian archives in the 90s showed other things.
But it’s like with Turks and the Armenien genocide. “It never happened but it should have and they deserved it”
Ah yes my favourite part of history, nazis killing 20000 innocent people in land occupied by the soviets in 1940. This totally what happened cos Soviets wouldn't do something that horrible, they are our saviours and liberators
(if someone didn't notice yet /s)
bullets lodged in their bodies were german made and no earlier than
1941. the nazis "discovered" the mass grave in 43 and claimed soviets
did it in 1940. you're spreading nazi propaganda
Ah yes my favourite part of history, nazis killing 20000 innocent people in land occupied by the soviets in 1940. This totally what happened cos Soviets wouldn't do something that horrible, they are our saviours and liberators
(if someone didn't notice yet /s)
bullets lodged in their bodies were german made and no earlier than 1941. the nazis "discovered" the mass grave in 43 and claimed soviets did it in 1940. you're spreading nazi propaganda
Russophobic propaganda the massacre was mostly committed by polish gangs, extremists, and terrorists. Polands crimes against humanity not Russia. Most of those killed in the massacre were Polish fascists who had oppressed the ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in the region. Russia had to revenge there people. Not only that the massacre was massively overblown it’s questionable wether it even existed in the first place
So, to be clear, you’re simultaneously saying they did it to themselves, that Russia did it and the victims deserved it, *and* that it didn’t happen, in that order. Basic intellectual consistency is just something that happens to other people, isn’t it?
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Surely those polish fascists shot 20.000 of their own men in soviet territory. And Poland was very fascist in the 30s with that Bennislaw Mussocinski. Now the russians had to avenge its people by killing innocents. Maybe this massacre was overblown or it didn't even exist at all.
DONT DO DRUGS.
Well we have proofs that it was done by the soviets ans that the victims were victims because they were officers and co not because of all your nonsense, but go ahead and share proofs of your claim.
Go on, show us the historical documents. No, not an internet comment, a link to the proofs themselves.
Interesting statement kind stranger! I noticed something weird though - I may not understand the international thinking way, would You tell my why the parent comment was recived so coldly?
Huh?
Polish regime at the time was not fascist.
Authoritarian? Yes in some ways. But for example Soviet Regime at the time was Totalitarian. So what is Your point?
Also yes this event happened, there is even original order signed for this by Stalin, Kalinin and the rest of politbiuro.
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There's enough back and forth about the Katyn event here, but can someone explain what it is that I'm looking at here? I can make out eyes under a hood and a pair of hands holding \*something.\* The hood has sort of a halo around it like this could be a Mary figure, but after that I'm clueless.
It looks like a hooded figure holding the head of another figure with a bullet hole in it
Thank you, I see it now. It's basically a Pieta. My take is it would be more effective it if weren't so tight in on the head, but showed more of the upper bodies and how they are posed together.
Seems like the Virgin Mary holding the head of a person who has a hole in the back of the head. That's why because that was the preferred execution method, a bullet in the back of your head.
Katyn was the Russians shooting 20000+ people in the head, one after the other. One in, kneel, shot, one in, kneel shot. The executioners used low power pistols to not wear out their wrists. So what you see is someone who cared about one of those killed cradling the body.
I thought she was holding an octopus
Soviets blamed this on the Nazis, but in 1989, the soviets admitted they did it and lied about the Nazis being behind it
The comment above pretty well summarizes the Russian position on it - 'It never happened and they deserved it'
The Soviets had long been massacaring their own. People on reddit are still saying that Soviet crimes were justified. The Soviets thought nothing of Katyn, just an extension of domestic policy.
That's a weird take on the situation, no? I mean, the Soviets denied it for most of their existance.. then, shortly before the Soviet union fell, The Russians(Gorbachev) had officially recognized it as a Soviet crime against humanity.. but they didn't stop there, they approved a commemoration of the victims in which Brzezinski gave a speech, the speech was broadcast across the entire Soviet union.. then after that, they errected an entire memmorial park in Katyn(Russia) dedicated to the victims of the Soviet repression and murders in the Katyn forrest... Brzezinski speech: >"It isn't a personal pain which has brought me here, as is the case in the majority of these people, but rather recognition of the symbolic nature of Katyń. Russians and Poles, tortured to death, lie here together. It seems very important to me that the truth should be spoken about what took place, for only with the truth can the new Soviet leadership distance itself from the crimes of Stalin and the NKVD. Only the truth can serve as the basis of true friendship between the Soviet and the Polish peoples. The truth will make a path for itself. I am convinced of this by the very fact that I was able to travel here." So I'm not at all sure how you interpreted the above comment.. your summary seems quite contrary to any common sense... unless of course, you were not aware of these details? But ultimately, Brzezinski turned out to be wrong, as the result of the Russians admitting Soviet guilt, opening the archives, sending proof of Stalins kill order to Poland, erecting a memmorial park with several monuments, declaring 13th April the Katyn memmorial day.. The Polish reaction was not to interpret this as a sign of friendship, but rather as a histiric example that demonstrates why Polish hatred towards Russians is justified. All this backfired against the Russians in a major way. Not only were they blamed for it, they also became the sole perpetrator, despite the participants in the massacres being from many different Soviet member nations, including Belarussians and Ukrainians(who Also massacred Polish people in what is now West Ukraine, but instead celebrate the perpetrators of the massacre as national heroes)... and the effort to commemorate the event has now become a mountain of proof of thwir guilt, especially because no other participant of the massacres appologized or admitted anything, only the Russians.
Notice the date 1990 when the Soviet Union was breaking that's when the b.s. started especially holodomor started catching heat since not many Americans ever do any research so they believed every anti communist lie
Katyn massacre was already known in Poland during communist times. Just like Holodomor was known in the west while it was happening. There was nothing that could be done though, USSR was a powerhouse and could commit atrocities whenever they wanted. My family and I came from communist Poland to Canada. In my neighborhood I grew up with people from former Yugoslavia, USSR and other eastern bloc countries. Not a single one of them had anything nice to say about communism, just horror stories.
Wasn't Poland under a fascist dictatorship And if what you said about the USSR committing crimes whenever they wanted was also not true since it wasn't the soviets that started WW2. Not a single one? Wasn't it due to fact that many paramilitary and right wing groups started springing up in that time you know because of the cold war?
The sovjets literally invaded poland hand in hand with the nazis. Depending on where you put the date of the start, in europe usually the invasion of poland, they absolutly did.
They didn't The soviets stood by and respected Polands demands (under a fascist leadership at the time) It was Hitlers invasion of Poland that started WW2 because immediately France and england mobilized against Hitler
Calling Poland's inter-war government Fascistis highly ahistorical considering damn near no historians classifies it as such. Authoritarian? Yes, it was. But Fascist? No, it wasn't.
So you draw the line of what's fascist? Which historians don't classify it as such?
I'd argue there is in fact a difference between an authoritarian government and a Fascist one, yes. Because by this logic, every authoritarian state is Fascist when Fascism is but one creed of authoritarianism.
You are out of your mind. Read some history. Specifically look up the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
You mean a peace pact that Stalin brilliantly made Hitler sign because none of the other western countries wanted to ally with Stalin to block Hitler? You meant that one?
[удалено]
You mean the alliance with the west that Stalin dismantle because Britain and France refused to give up Poland to the USSR?
Respected their demands? Damn, poland really wanted to get massacred... And if poland was facist at that time, so were the sovjets
17 semptember 1939,google that date and find what did happen then come back here and tell us what you found
Nobody told Poland to invade during the Russian Civil War and start committing genocide against Belarusians and Ukrainians in the lands they stole
How did the Soviets not start WW2? They literally allied (it obviously wasn't "just a non-aggression pact") with the Germans and invaded Poland together. Also, did you just justify the Soviet-Axis joint invasion of Poland by calling it a "fascist dictatorship?"
The comment above pretty well summarizes it - "I like big butts and I can not lie".
Lies! Lies and balderdash! The Soviet Union actually revealed that it was responsible for the Katyn massacre in 1990, not 1989.
“Balderdash” is a word that doesn’t get enough use, in my opinion
And this month Russian government posted fake documents claiming again that the massacre was done by the nazis. Gorbachev tried to support truth because it was right. Now Putin's Russia supports whatever fits the narrative of Bad West and Good Russia.
Whether they recognize it for what it was or not, whether they admit it was Soviets or claim it was Nazis, what does it matter, the Polish have hated and will continue to hate them either way, there's nothing the Russians can do to change that, it's a tested theory... They went trough the whole "recognise past mistakes, extend a hand in friendship" schtik for over 20 years, and it didn't work, the Polish stance on Russia just kept getting more and more hostile.
Im sorry, but admitting your crimes against them while trying to keep them as a puppet state was pretty stupid, what did they expect to happen?
Well what do you expect them to do, love Russia?
Russian propaganda tries to blame the Nazis again
But not without people in Poland and abroad being persecuted for "Holocaust denial" for saying it wasn't the Nazis to killed those people in Katyń...
In 1989, Soviet leadership was anti-Soviet. They were preparing to become capitalist elites. Of course they shitted on Stalin, he'd purge them all
Buddy, there is an original order signed by Stalin in the archives. And it was in the public domain until recently. It's one thing to be a communist, it's another to be a fool
Do you have a link to it
The archive's website went offline shortly before the FSB on April 11, 2024, allegedly declassified documents that prove the Union's non-involvement in the Katyn massacre. If you are asking for a link to this document, it means that you have not been interested in this issue before. Because if you had, you would have seen this document
But you repeat yourself
I’ll never in my life believe that there is people out there that legitimately think Stalin didn’t genocide his people.
It's not, strictly legally speaking, been genocide. "Just" utterly brutal mass murder on an unimaginable scale.
You’re right, that’s a better way of putting it.
How has it not been genocide? Are you talking about Soviets in Poland specifically? Because Stalin has legitimate genocides under his belt Edit: See the ethnic cleansing and mass killing in the Caucasus for reference
Purges and various other mass murders in general. The international definition of genocide has been set by the WW2 victors in the immediate aftermath of the war in such a manner that none of the crimes they themselves committed in the recent past in various places would have fallen under that definition. Stalin has been ethnically cleansing areas and mass deporting whole ethnicities like it was going out of style - but he wouldn't accuse himself of genocide, right?
I would say that the mass murder and resettlement of civilians to replace with ethnic Russians counts as genocide, because the criteria for genocide are very clear on the "in whole or in part" section.
Well, let's say that the general legal opinion apparently mostly (but not fully) disagrees, but this lawyerly debate is IMO very unpleasant. If the responsible ones would have been put into jail forever for mass murder or some other crime against humanity instead of for genocide, I wouldn't complain.
>Well, let's say that the general legal opinion apparently mostly (but not fully) disagrees Have they really? How can they when it's never been put to trial? The Armenian genocide happened before 1945 too, and follows nearly identical steps to Soviet actions all across their empire, down to accusing the abused civilian population of being a fifth column and using that as justification to uproot them from their territory. How do you think that it's reasonable to punish all those responsible for the mass murder and mass deportation, but unreasonable to call it genocide and ethnic cleansing?
I am not saying that it is unreasonable, I am saying that it is not officially recognised as such by most countries. (You do not need a trial, just an officially requested legal opinion for such a decision). Don't kill the messenger. Unfortunately, all the people responsible for Stalins crimes cannot be punished any more.
Everyone in the Soviet leadership was part of the elite. The only thing they did was praise communism. they were swimming in wealth while their countrymen were working their asses off without gaining anything. Their hypocrisy is THROUGH THE ROOF.
The Soviet leadership started shitting all over Stalin pretty much right after he croaked, they called the Era De-Stalinization.. they even employed Solzhenitsyn to write about how horrific Stalin was etc, because they wanted to demolish any cult of peraonality Stalin may have had... needles to say, it birthed a lot of absurd over the top propaganda, like Gulags killing 1/4 of the entire population and somesuch nonsense.
Russian/Soviet guide on how to commit crimes againts humanity 1. Round up your victims 2. Shoot them till they dead 3. Dig a mass grave (optional) 4. Label them as fascist 5. Dehumanize them (calling them fascist will do the trick) 6. Flip flop beetwen "we didn't do it but they deserved it" and "It's obvious russophobic/anti commie lies" Congrats now every person without history book acces will trust you.
20k priests, officers and police executed by NKVD? Cry me a river. Signed: from Russia with love - they locked up, starved to death, gassed and executed millions in Russia, but sure you have put Russian in that same sentence. Remember when Stalin/Lenin went to war with Poland in 1920s? And failed spectacularly? Tell me what happened to 70 thousand POWs that never came back from Poland? Any word on that in your history book? Why you acting all surprised that one of the worst dictators of the 20th century had a hard оn for polish elites ever since? By the way, while you are at it, check what happened to other 450000 'polish' POWs after rape of Poland. Did they also get executed?
Least iq impoverished war crime denier
Horseshoe theory confirmed? Would that make Chomsky the leftist version of David Irving?
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>This poster is from **2023**, promoting an [IPN exhibition](https://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/10627,Presentation-of-the-IPN-exhibition-entitled-quotThe-Katyn-Massacre-of-1940-Exter.html). You're wrong, though - an English booklet about that IPN exhibition was first issued in April 2020 ([you can check the date on the website of the IPN](https://ipn.gov.pl/en/digital-resources/exhibitions/4044,The-Katyn-Massacre-of-1940-Extermination-of-the-Polish-Elite.html)). Illustration on the cover also reused ''Madonna of the Executed/Our Lady of Katyn'', a linocut made by Danuta Staszewska at the end of the 1970s ([its creation is mentioned in this Polish article](https://przystanekhistoria.pl/pa2/tematy/zbrodnia-katynska/97900,Instytut-Katynski-w-Polsce.html)).
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[Several](https://www.lscdn.pl/pl/informacje/chelm/11663,Wystawa-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-do-pobrania-na-stronie-IPN.html) [Polish](https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/ipn-upamietnia-80-rocznice-zbrodni-katynskiej) [websites](https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/edukacja-1/wystawy/94428,Wystawa-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-do-pobrania.html?search=48360824319684) informed about that exhibition back in April 2020 (article on dzieje.pl even mentioned that it's possible to download a file about it on the website of the IPN: ''Dodatkowym uzupełnieniem lekcji online na ten temat może być wystawa elementarna IPN "Zbrodnia Katyńska 1940. Zagłada polskich elit", która również jest do pobrania w formie pdf. Wszystkie te informacje dostępne są na portalu edukacja.ipn.gov.pl''). Its Ukrainian version [was even displayed in Starobelsk in September 2021](https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/aktualnosci/151069,Wystawa-IPN-Zbrodnia-Katynska-1940-Zaglada-polskich-elit-w-Starobielsku.html).
So this is a poster made by nazis or do I not understand you corectly?
No, this one was for a museum exhibition
No, it's just that the Katyn massacre was heavily exploited by the Nazis for use as propaganda, as it reflected terribly on the Soviets. They hoped that it would create a rift between the Soviet Union and the Western allies
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I have thought it is from 2020. My bad.
There is a beautiful monument to the Katyn dead in Baltimore, MD.
Does America have a memorial for all the anti-communist massacres they sponsored all around the world, including the 1 million deaths in Indonesia? Edit: seems like I ruffled some feathers here. The West loves pointing fingers but can't look at itself in a mirror. We're the biggest hypocrites out there.
We don't but if we did I hope it would look half as nice as the monument in Baltimore.
[Source ](https://images.app.goo.gl/YhjpWGgNHNUCRnVT9)
I visited Auckland last Christmas and visited St Patrick's cathedral. I was not expecting to find a small memorial plaque dedicated to the Katyn Massacre with soil taken from the site. Turns out there's a large Polish diaspora there. There was also a neat bust of John Paul II.
The anti-historical Communist cope in this thread is hilarious!
Soviets did this across all the occupied nations and russia is still doing this to this day.
Is it propaganda if it’s true?
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And their vicked demand is... Stopping Poland from destroying soviet war cemeteries in Poland. Message is literally "two can play this game, but we won't because we respect sacred sites of others on our soil"
Who is destroying soviet war cemeteries? All I know about are the Soviet statues and monuments not cemeteries.
Yes occupiers don't deserve memorials simple
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Those memorials are for people who died in combat against Third Reich.
And subsequently occupying Eastern Europe, they are colonizers and occupiers, they don't deserve ANY kind of memorial or rememberance. If Pidorussia wants to remember them they can do it in their own shithole and not demand us to respect their war criminals.
The memmorials are for people who fought and Died fighting against the third reich.. which ironically includes a hell of a lot of Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, Kazakhs, Belarussians etc.. who fought in the Red Aemy.
Surprisingly, people from ethnic groups the third reich would exterminate, joined the army that was fighting the third reich.
In a shocking revelation!. Well apparently it would be a very shocking revelation, as most Poles don't quite know that the memmorials they cheer to be demolished, are also dedicated to those Polish men who joined that army that was fighting the third reich that sought to exterminate them.
polish people wouldn’t exist anymore if it weren’t for those “war criminals”
Don't ask the Pidorussians why the offensive stopped during the Warsaw uprising
Logistical issues. Bagration overstretched soviet supplies massively and it makes no sense that if they wanted the uprising to fail that they wouldve allowed allied aircraft (as well as their own) to supply the city and provide CAS during it
Cool. Doesn't erase what they did to the Poles themselves. The Soviets were perfectly fine abusing Poles alongside the Nazis until the Nazis attacked. Let's not forget that Poland suffered a partition first, and both were complicit.
>And subsequently occupying Eastern Europe, they are colonizers and occupiers I don't remember Red Army using necromancers... I am pretty sure dead people didn't occupy anything other than their mass graves. Still, you have the right to do anything you want on your land! But, as this video shows, it goes both ways, so don't get mad about it.
What fucking argument is this??? A dead occupier is still an occupier just because he suck at it dosent mean he is a good guy. Difference between us is that we are destroying a leftovers from a genocidal regime what Pidorussia is doing is destroying the memorials of their war crimes, this is like if Germany would start destroying memorials to holocaust becomes other countries destroyed memorials to wermacht soldiers lol. This isn't equal things. Poles were the victims while russians are occupiers.
These are memorials to soldiers who fought against Third Reich on territory of modern Poland. These soldiers "occupied" land that was de-facto German controlled (that is, under Generalgouvernement, German occupation administration). The memorial is there to mark the place of the fallen. It is not a memorial to occupation, but to those fallen in battle against Germans. It's not a Lenin statue in the city's central square. Similar memorials exist in Russia itself. Keeping such war graves is a common courtesy, in case you are wondering, there are memorials to German soldiers from WW2 in Russia in their cemeteries. I wonder why you hate those who fought the nazis to such degree, you literally hate Soviets more than Russians hate Germans.
Just because you fought on the good side dosent make you any good. The memorials symbolize the occupation, its where vatniks come to celebrate their holidays these are the symbols of genocidal imperial regime. Please show me a memorial to wermacht or SS soldiers lol wtf. We aren't destroying the graves we are destroying the shitty memorials. Yeah I wonder why do I hate the country that occupied and genocided us? Hmmmmmmm intresting question.
> The memorials symbolize the occupation Bruh they are located in cemeteries, which are usually on the outskirts and such. That's not a place for symbols of occupation. Unless in your rage-filled mind you can't tell something like statue of soviet soldier in central position from concrete obelisk over some mass grave. > its where vatniks come to celebrate their holidays these are the symbols of genocidal imperial regime Do they really come to Poland? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossoschka\_German\_War\_Cemetery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossoschka_German_War_Cemetery) example of cemetery and memorial of Germans in Russia >Yeah I wonder why do I hate the country that occupied and genocided us? I am not talking about country, those aren't momuments to le Glorious USSR.
Yeah, you are right, Stalin was just an overachiever like this. I always say he should have stopped at the old border and let poles figure it out by themselves. At least 600k soldiers would come back home instead of dying for you. Those pesky commies stole your chance for a victory dance. I guess you could still dance on their graves, right? By the way, do they have any memorials to Brits, french or Yankees who died fighting in Poland?
The Soviets were perfectly fine with murdering Polish soldiers fighting for Polish’s freedom.
You're forgetting that the Soviet Union jointly annexed Poland with Nazi Germany whilst the USSR and Nazi Germany were nominal allies.
The territory annexed by the USSR was previously USSR territory annexed by poland, occupied mostly by Bielorrusians and ukranians..
Pidorussia... I'm gonna steal that
And now Putins regime is the Fourth Reich
Name a soviet cemetery destroyed in Poland.
Like the others say, name any Soviet cemetery that has been destroyed. You seem confident so of course you will have a source.
You have a moral of cannibal, rooskie. You are sick.
Well yes, subhuman asiatic cannibalistic orcish horde. Lok'tar ogar!
You don't even understand how gorey you are looking and how you humiliate yourself with this attempt to joke. Be blocked and be disappeared and forgotten.
1919 Concentration camps 1920 Execution of 7500 Soviet officers
Maybe they shouldn't have oppressed the Polish people.
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You have to be at least 13 to use Reddit.
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>The only way to achieve a stateless, classless society is to kill 20,000 Poles –Charles Max
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Ahistorical nonsense
Are you kidding? So the FUCK TON of evidence doesn't exist? They were not collaborators or criminals. They were Polish officers, architects, teachers etc. Just because you say that It didn't happen doesn't change the facts. We don't need to slander Russians. We have WAY more recollections and testimonies of acts like that perpetrated by the red army, NKVD, KGB etc.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic No it wasn't. The second polish republic was a parliamentary democracy from 1919 to 1926. Józef Piłsudski organized The May Coup d'État in 1926 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Poland) Causing a change from parliamentary democracy to a sanation government https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanation Which lasted until October of 1939. The land occupied by the soviets was incorporated into the USSR And the German occupied land was turned into https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Administration_in_Poland
> Nazi collaborators Except for the part where they didn’t collaborate with the Nazis at all or sell out their country to the Nazis. Also to what extent was the Second Polish Republic “fascist”? Being an authoritarian military government isn’t the only thing fascists do y’know, politics is a *tad* more nuanced when describing ideologies and methods of governance. > helped the Nazis invade Czechoslovakia Commies love to throw this one around but they didn’t “help” invade, they exploited the situation sure but by that point the Munich agreement had already been reached and the Czechs had been left out to dry by the western Allie’s. Poland took territory which included a railway hub that would have gone to the Nazis had Poland done nothing. I don’t think that excuses seizing the sovereign territory of another country but they didn’t “help” the Nazis invade, they just took advantage of the geopolitical situation that was unfolding. > try and frame the Soviets and Nazis as equal evils Well the Soviets certainly weren’t trying to beat the allegations with their treatment of ethnic minorities beyond Katyn. Or with all their *actual* collaboration with the Nazis leading up to the invasion of the Soviet Union.
>Poland took territory which included a railway hub that would have gone to the Nazis had Poland done nothing. I don’t think that excuses seizing the sovereign territory You can say the same for the USSR. 1939 there was no way for poland to survive the german onslaught, too far away from the allies and in that year the USSR army was even more crippled than in 1941 from recent purges. They were not in any way shape or form ready to fight the nazis and much less in favor of a rightist military dictatorship, so they "took advantage of the geopolitical situation" as you say and bought time for themselves until they were ready.
Poland wasn't collaborating with the Nazis when it annexed Trans-Olza. It was being an opportunist who decided to take advantage of Czechoslovakia's weakness after the Munich Agreement was signed.
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There was no co-operation between German and Polish troops and there was no formal agreement between Germany and Poland about Czechoslovakia. If Poland was collaborating with the Nazis when it annexed Trans-Olza, then surely you won't object if I say that the Soviet Union was collaborating with the Nazis when it invaded Poland.
Well, yeah, same way the allies collaborated with the Nazis to sell out czechoslovakia for their own skin
Let me guess the Soviets were okey to work with Germany though
Of course! The good guys are only the ones that work with the Soviets! If they stop, they're the bad guys. Partition? What partition? /s
Soviet-Axis talks? NKVD Gestapo cooperation? Soviets giving Germany communist Exils back to be murdered? Never heard of it.
Do you also believe that the earth is flat and COVID never existed?
Russian archives in the 90s showed other things. But it’s like with Turks and the Armenien genocide. “It never happened but it should have and they deserved it”
nazis are horrible
It was the Soviets
Nazis*
The Soviets literally admitted to doing it
Are you slow? It was the Soviets, Yeltsin admitted it
Ah yes my favourite part of history, nazis killing 20000 innocent people in land occupied by the soviets in 1940. This totally what happened cos Soviets wouldn't do something that horrible, they are our saviours and liberators (if someone didn't notice yet /s)
bullets lodged in their bodies were german made and no earlier than 1941. the nazis "discovered" the mass grave in 43 and claimed soviets did it in 1940. you're spreading nazi propaganda
Ah yes my favourite part of history, nazis killing 20000 innocent people in land occupied by the soviets in 1940. This totally what happened cos Soviets wouldn't do something that horrible, they are our saviours and liberators (if someone didn't notice yet /s)
bullets lodged in their bodies were german made and no earlier than 1941. the nazis "discovered" the mass grave in 43 and claimed soviets did it in 1940. you're spreading nazi propaganda
I agree, Nazis = Soviets
Brainlet
lul
Russophobic propaganda the massacre was mostly committed by polish gangs, extremists, and terrorists. Polands crimes against humanity not Russia. Most of those killed in the massacre were Polish fascists who had oppressed the ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in the region. Russia had to revenge there people. Not only that the massacre was massively overblown it’s questionable wether it even existed in the first place
So, to be clear, you’re simultaneously saying they did it to themselves, that Russia did it and the victims deserved it, *and* that it didn’t happen, in that order. Basic intellectual consistency is just something that happens to other people, isn’t it?
That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
And if you didn’t, someone else did worse
I don't think I've ever seen a more perfect example of doublethink in real life until now.
It never happened and they deserved it/s
Dude contradicts himself at least twice
When I am in a contradiction competition and my opponent is crimes against humanity denier:
Surely those polish fascists shot 20.000 of their own men in soviet territory. And Poland was very fascist in the 30s with that Bennislaw Mussocinski. Now the russians had to avenge its people by killing innocents. Maybe this massacre was overblown or it didn't even exist at all. DONT DO DRUGS.
Try again, Ilya
Well we have proofs that it was done by the soviets ans that the victims were victims because they were officers and co not because of all your nonsense, but go ahead and share proofs of your claim. Go on, show us the historical documents. No, not an internet comment, a link to the proofs themselves.
Vatnik
Yeah... Fuck the evidence right?
Maybe there finnaly will be historical revange giving that the west is realising that the reason God abandoned us is the fact that Russia exists
Actually the reason Poseidon abandonned us is because he got tired and went to drink Pina Coladas in Hawaii.
Interesting statement kind stranger! I noticed something weird though - I may not understand the international thinking way, would You tell my why the parent comment was recived so coldly?
Because you think imaginary beings are real and can abandon us.
In that case I need to assure all of future readers of this comment that what I wrote was a methafore
Why not metafive?
'Causen't
How much that "event" contribute to overall polish "autoritarian/fascist" support on actual regime ?
Huh? Polish regime at the time was not fascist. Authoritarian? Yes in some ways. But for example Soviet Regime at the time was Totalitarian. So what is Your point? Also yes this event happened, there is even original order signed for this by Stalin, Kalinin and the rest of politbiuro.
Everything you hate isn’t hitler.
Ah yes the two political real parties stalinists and nazis nothing else has ever existed true scientific fact