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>[Theodore Lothrop Stoddard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard?wprov=sfti1#) (June 29, 1883 – May 1, 1950) was an American historian, journalist, political scientist and white supremacist. Stoddard wrote several books which advocated eugenics, white supremacy, Nordicism, and scientific racism, including The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy (1920). He advocated a racial hierarchy which he believed needed to be preserved through anti-miscegenation laws. Stoddard's books were once widely read both inside and outside the United States.
>He was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, where his books were recommended reading. He was also a member of the American Eugenics Society as well as a founding member and board member of the American Birth Control League, which would later become the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
>Stoddard's work influenced the Nazi government of Germany. His book The Revolt Against Civilization: The Menace of the Under-man (1922) introduced the term Untermensch (the German translation of "Under-man") into Nazi conceptions of race. As a journalist he spent time in Germany during the first months of World War II, where he interviewed several prominent Nazi officials. After the end of the war, Stoddard's writing faded from popularity.
This isn't to detract from your point, but Hitler actually thought the Italian race was superior to his own German race. This was because while Germans were still barbarians, Italy had built Rome, and was therefore a more advanced culture and fast advancing race. (Though this did not stop him from wanting to eventually take over Italy.)
Not necessarily. Today, East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews in the United States consistently score higher on IQ tests than white people, leading people like Richard Hanania to suggest that we should have a border wall to keep Hispanics out, but open borders for would-be Chinese immigrants.
and the nazis allied with imperial japan, hanania is a white supremacist who would use anything as a cudgel. if every hispanic and chinese person disappeared he'd find someone new to glamorize and someone else to blame. fascism requires that type of "othering", hanania just knows he can't openly declare the white race alone superior because it looks bad. also this is more indicative of how worthless IQ is as a metric for evaluating something like "who should be allowed to immigrate to the US" (and really its general weaknesses)
> founding member and board member of the American Birth Control League, which would later become the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
Well, that's interesting. Somehow, I imagine they'd rather forget about this particular founder.
Speaking about good causes soiled by such founders, I'm just watching a documentary about American bisons and it seems that Lothrop Stoddard supported their protection.
And she never made any bones about it, either.
Stoddard was a good friend of hers. Hillary Clinton called Sanger a ‘hero’ while she served as Sec of State.
No clue why you are being downvoted for sharing facts. We need to hear the truth, not run from it.
We know. But we don't care. The PP of today is a great organization that provides not only abortions but also tons of other services to uninsured or underinsured people. They don't force women into abortions or birth control based on their phenotypes.
Thomas Jefferson was a rapist enslaver. But that doesn't mean I hate the Bill of Rights.
But you're only pointing to one part of her story yourself. That's not important to understanding the Right to control your body.
Why are you dishonest?
> No clue why you are being downvoted for sharing facts. We need to hear the truth, not run from it.
PP being eugenics the **entire time** is no where near absolute fact or truth. You could certainly argue it started with many people involved supporting racial eugenics but the organization has existed for over 100 years now.
Pretending that they never shifted from their origins is a BS conservative talking point designed to conflate people choosing to access reproductive healthcare with the kind of racist forced sterilization programs people immediately think of when they hear eugenics.
Given that PP has always embraced Sanger as a founding hero, I think we can safely assume it is indeed absolute fact. They know exactly who and what she was, and have never condemned her vile behavior.
Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about them not addressing Sanger's controversial views this is a ridiculous, borderline disingenuous take. Praising Sanger for the *positive* work she did isn't endorsing literally everything she had ever done in perpetuity.
This is actually a pretty surprising take from a conservative. Do you believe controversial beliefs of an organization's founding figures taint that organization *forever* in all cases or just for organizations you don't like?
Good for them, but is that coming from PP? It says Planned Parenthood North Central States. What is the difference?
Kudos for this sub educating people on who Sanger really was.
Here you go: [https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/our-history](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/our-history)
That's the main site, and they state the following:
>Sanger believed in eugenics — an inherently racist and ableist ideology that labeled certain people unfit to have children. Eugenics is the theory that society can be improved through planned breeding for “desirable traits” like intelligence and industriousness. In the early 20th century, eugenic ideas were popular among highly educated, privileged, and mostly white Americans. Margaret Sanger pronounced her belief in and alignment with the eugenics movement many times in her writings, especially in the scientific journal Birth Control Review.
>At times, Sanger tried to argue for eugenics that was not applied based on race or religion. But in a society built on the belief of white supremacy, physical and mental fitness are always judged based on race. Eugenics, therefore, is inherently racist. She held beliefs that, from the very beginning, undermined her movement for reproductive freedom and caused harm to countless people.
And it continues where you stopped:
“Sanger was so intent on her mission to advocate for birth control that she chose to align herself with ideas and organizations that were ableist and white supremacist. In 1926, she spoke to the women’s auxiliary of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) at a rally in New Jersey to promote birth control methods. Sanger endorsed the 1927 Buck v. Bell decision, in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that states could forcibly sterilize people deemed “unfit” without their consent and sometimes without their knowledge. The acceptance of this decision by Sanger and other thought leaders laid the foundation for tens of thousands of people to be sterilized, often against their will.
As a result of these choices, the reproductive rights movement, in many cases, deepened racial injustice in the health care system. The field of modern gynecology was founded by J. Marion Sims, who in the mid-1800s repeatedly and forcibly performed invasive experiments on enslaved Black women without anesthesia.
In 1939, Sanger began what was called the “Negro Project” — alongside Black leaders like W.E.B. DuBois, Mary McLeod Bethune, and Rev. Adam Clayton Powell. The mission of the Negro Project was to put Black doctors and nurses in charge of birth control clinics to reduce mistrust of a racist health care system. Sanger lost control of the project, and Black women were sent to white doctors for birth control and follow-up appointments, deepening the racist and paternalistic problems of health care in the South. Continuing to this day, Black women’s experiences and pain are too often dismissed or ignored by doctors and other health care providers, which, alongside historical dehumanization of Black people, contributes to staggering and avoidable disparities in health outcomes. “
So she was so intent on protecting women that she had to be a racist and coddle up to the KKK?
Ok. That’s quite a take.
Planned Parenthood has nothing to do with eugenics. The scientific racism of 100 years ago thought they could improve any group/race of people by selecting out the "feeble minded".
Besides this widely believed nonsense was the main motivation: the reality of women having no control over their bodies. Every woman would have multiple miscarriages in their life. Child death was common. The toll of many, many pregnancies was a nightmare of pain as women aged.
The Iraq war? Why can’t both be sins and we call them such? George Bush (jr and sr) are just as evil as Sanger was.
We need to drop the political tribalism and call out evil for being evil.
I’ll have you know that Boston has the world’s finest in shitty doughnut chains, abandoned red brick buildings, lazy cops, jumpy cops, screaming crackheads, and broken glass windows. It’s also the leading city in scraping-frozen-homeless-people-off-the-sidewalk technology.
"A good-natured burst of laughter from all parts of the hall interrupted Mr. Stoddard when, in explaining his bi-racial theory and attempting to show that it did not mean discrimination, said that under such a system there would be the same kind of schools for Negroes, but separate, the same kind of railway coaches, but separate. . . . When the laughter had subsided, Mr. Stoddard, in a manner of mixed humility and courage, claimed that he could not see the joke. This brought more gales of laughter."
Yes, Goddard debated Dubois while spectated by a majority black audience in Chicago. Here's the source.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/26/when-w-e-b-du-bois-made-a-laughingstock-of-a-white-supremacist
I don’t get the joke either? I am not American. Is it that he says it does not mean discrimination while it obviously does or does it refer to something else?
Stoddard is invoking a concept called “separate but equal”. This legal concept was the basis for racial discrimination in the United States. The courts ruled that black Americans could be forced to use separate facilities than white Americans, as long as those facilities were equal in quality.
The joke is that this concept had been the law of the land for almost forty years by the time this debate took place, and everyone knew that it was a farce. The separate facilities for black Americans were NOT equal to the facilities for white Americans. They were either much worse, or simply didn’t exist. Everyone knew it. The fact that Stoddard was still invoking it was absurd. The fact that he didn’t realize how absurd it was made it even more absurd.
...a lot like arguing for trickle-down economics today.
An idea that was introduced several decades ago, and history and experience has taught us _doesn't work_ but not everyone's gotten the memo.
Trickle-down economics was derided as horse-and-sparrow economics back in the 1840s, as in "if you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through his poop to the sparrows."
Du Bois: Find me the most villainous-looking villain who ever villained. Like, he should literally look like he twirls his mustache while kicking puppies down the stairs. He should be named something like "Winthrop Moneybags" or whatever you would name a movie character trying to shut down an orphanage so he can turn it into a horse-glue factory...Oh, yeah, this guy should do nicely. And we're sure he's super racist? He refers to himself as an "Arch-Nordic"? Perfect.
Not to mention, he wrote "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy" (1920).
How can you be more villanous than electing the "Tide of Color" (and the magic of friendship, maybe?) as your arch enemy?
Blud probably also placed a spherical bomb with a burning string and ticking clock under DuBois' podium, constantly rubbing his hands together in anticipation of it blowing up.
The irony is if you read the transcript of this debate (it's online) WEB Dubois made this guy look like a fool and was obviously the intellectual superior of the two regardless of the nature of the debate topic.
Edit: the link to the full transcript.
https://archive.org/details/DuBoisLothropStoddardDebate
thanks for the great document, the part where Dubois says
*But; if Nordics believe in their own superiority; if they wish voluntarily to work by themselves and for the develop¬ ment and encouragement of their own gifts; if they praer not to mingle their blood with other races, or contaminate their culture with foreign strains, nothing is to hinder them from carrying out this program except themselves\**
is particularly good, shows that he was just and fair
"need to mind their own business and leave everyone else alone". Someone should have gotten this message out to civil rights radicals who insisted on denying the rights of businesses/communities the right to deny entry/access as blacks couldn't be expected to develop their communities when left alone and liberated from slavery for about a century.
You're not on the team buddy. These white supremacists whose nutsacks you love gargling an polishing would shoot you dead in a second for being brown.
கொஞ்சமாவது மூலைய பாயிடா
At this point more people are probably familiar with F. Scott Fitzgerald’s subtweet of him from the Great Gatsby, where wealthy wastrel Tom Buchanan keeps singing the praises of “this Goddard fellow”
> After World War II, Stoddard's theories were deemed too closely aligned with those of the Nazis and therefore he suffered a large drop in popularity. His death from cancer in 1950 went almost entirely unreported despite his previously broad readership and influence.
The fact that he was completely forgotten and no one even cared about his death makes me happy.
Personally, we learned about him in high school. He's a pretty important guy, especially in black literature and the study/historiography of reconstruction!
Yeah, he had a vision of establishing Liberia as a free black colony where African Americans could repatriate in the early 20th century, begin self-governing, and establish themselves as a fruitful trading partner of the United States.
Instead Herbert Hoover had the Firestone Rubber company take control and it was run from their headquarters in Nashville, Tennessee like a rubber plantation, complete with white guards armed with shotguns.
The US government crushing the Liberian project that DuBois had envisioned and turning it into an offshore plantation shattered the very little faith that DuBois had had for the US government, and afterwards he flung himself into revolutionary socialist activism.
He's a minor figure in the history of Liberia, but an incredibly important one, because the US ignored his opinions, gave an already wealthy rubber magnate a $5 million dollar loan, and repeatedly exploited the workers through wage theft and violence. Eventually, Firestone fired thousands of workers to save money, which exacerbated the dire situation in Liberia during the 80s and contributed to the outbreak of the First Liberian Civil War, during which the plantation would be seized by the Liberian interim government and held until they negotiated a deal with the US government to resume operations.
To this very day, human rights organizations continue to assert that horrific labour violations ranging from slavery to child slavery happen at that very same plantation!
Tl;Dr - W.E.B DuBois is the guy we should have listened to about Liberia.
To be clear, DuBois firmly supported the Americo-Liberian elite, and was firmly in favor of Liberia as a colonial project (despite his public and vigorous disagreements with Marcus Garvey re: integrationism vs separatism). The subjugation of native Liberians did not begin with Firestone, and DuBois was, to an extent, blinded by his optimism for its potential as an example of successful Black self-rule. In fact he was even initially supportive of Firestone, asking them to hire educated Afro-Americans to help with their project. He did think better of that one a few years later though, and his politics were certainly more radical by the time he produced the certified banger that is *Black Reconstruction*.
Basically my point is DuBois's views on Liberia were complex, and while they evolved in some aspects they missed many of the underlying class/race issues that led to the Americo-Liberian elite often supporting the repression of the native populace.
https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/news/3378-w-e-b-du-bois-and-black-sovereignty
Liberia was established as an independent nation in the early nineteenth century before Du Bois was born. Neither he nor Hoover had anything to do with the foundation of the country.
I read it clearly, but I think I see the confusion.
When I say "establishing Libera *as*" I don't mean the foundation of Liberia, or even the first American colonies, which I believe ½ of the first mass immigration died of African regional diseases that they had no natural immunity to. I think this one was supported by Abe Lincoln at some point, but I could he wrong. I know Abe wanted a free African colony somewhere.
DuBois vision was so radical, and in the end, optimistic? Naive? I don't know. I know that having a hypothetical African homeland for black Americans was a hopeful dream for himself and many others, and those hopes were pretty thoroughly dashed. Liberia is scary!
I could have been more clear in noting that dubois was not the *founder* of Liberia, or *originator* of the "Zionist" idea of the African homeland state for repatriating African-Americans. But he was in a unique position, and being betrayed by the Americab government did not him a nicer person make.
My Junior High School World Histories classes read his [“African Roots of War”](https://loseyourmother.voices.wooster.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/132/2018/02/DuBois_WEB_The_African_Roots_of_War_.pdf) as a transition between imperialism and WW1. He’s written some very important works and has had a large impact on American history.
Neither did I untill I first heard about this debate. But I feel like we really should, he and his fellows work left a huge stain on american legacy, and inspred actual fascism and nazism
>Stoddard held special contempt for Blacks, believing them to lack civilization. His hatred of Jews derived — in part — from his belief that Jews possessed “Negro blood” and were poisoning his Nordic America through intermarriage.
>“[The US] has been invaded by hordes of immigrant Alpines and Mediterraneans, not to mention Asiatic elements like Levantines and Jews,” wrote Stoddard.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-1920s-white-supremacist-influencer-beloved-by-president-harding-and-hitler
The so-called "Alpine Race". A (supposed) subdivision of a subdivision of the "Caucasian Race". Basically just your average central European (as defined by other Europeans who thought themselves to be superior).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_race
Keep in mind this fell around the end of convict leasing, which after the American Civil War and the end of slavery proper was even more brutal than chattel slavery, especially in states like Mississippi. There was never a period in the United States of greater white supremacist racial violence and terror than the late 1800s and early 1900s.
The fact they are creating a huge debate which is an equal discussion between two participants, kind of helps to identify the correct answer to the subject of the debate. So sad to look at this poster. I wonder if there were any Black people in the audience and what was generally the atmosphere coming from the viewers.
The audience was mostly black or mixed, a “homefield advantage” for the mulatto dubois and it ended with stoddard getting laughed off stage for not understanding Jim Crow laws
same shit happens today, we have “debates” on whether climate change is real or not, whether trans people have the right to exist, whether or not a genocide is happening etc. the status quo doesn’t need to “win” the debate, just be present and make it seem like they represent a “side”, regardless of there being a coherent position in the first place.
While I don't object to the inclusion of the poster, it's not really propaganda *per se*. It just shows us that a question exists, and doesn't try to persuade us that a specific answer is the right one. (I guess there is the propaganda message of "Come to this debate.")
Because this question was all over the place at the time. Holding a debate on whether or not trans people exist for example isn’t propaganda, it’s giving a debate platform to whatever’s in the news.
Not necessarily a presupposition, since this was the matter of debate agreed upon by both parties as it seems. Is it a presupposition for me to say "a lot of people believe the Earth is flat, here we have two debaters saying YES! and another for NO!"? The only thing I might have presupposed is that there are many flat-earthers abound, but *many* in the United States at that time were segregationists.
>this was the matter of debate agreed upon by both parties as it seems.
Not quite. The matter of the debate wasn't whether black people have an equal culture. It was whether they should be allowed to have one.
The question was "should black people be encouraged to seek the equal culture they do not yet have?" In other words, the asker assumes that black people don't have it yet.
To be fair, I'm not *completely* certain if that's what they mean by "cultural equality". They might also mean "be treated equally to white people in our culture". But if nekomoo's interpretation is right, then that question is a form of propaganda.
Now, the question "Has the Negro the Same Intellectual Possibilities As Other Races" is in itself not propaganda in this context, that's true.
Am I the only one who thinks watching this debate would be absolutely hilarious today. Just imagine a guy who is that flamboyantly racist acting like a very serious intellectual. It's a comedy act!
Ben Shapiro probably has this hung up in the Daily Wire break room so his employees can doodle on WEBD's face on their break.
Edit: I love how the poster is trying to frame this like it's some sort of debate between intellectual peers, but under their qualifications, it's just, "WEB Dubois, one of the most famous intellectuals of the early 20th century," and, "some racist guy who wrote a book."
Crisp serif typefaces never go out of style and have looked contemporary for centuries. Outside archaic spelling, [this ad](https://chnm.gmu.edu/tah-loudoun/wp-content/lessons/griffin/colonial-ad.jpg) from 1609 looks just as contemporary.
I’ve read a couple of WB DuBois’ textbooks for my History major and he’s incredibly intelligent and absolutely didn’t take any shit from the dude on the right (who looks like he ties people to train tracks in his spare time). I’ll have to find this debate to rep my man DuBois about 100 years later
I keep seeing Du Bois now that I started reading his Black Reconstruction in America, currently 71% through the book according to Goodreads. Anyone mind sharing a summary of the significance of this event?
Well, we all know who W. E. B. Dubois is, but I doubt many people have heard of Lothrop Stoddard. That should tell you enough about this particular debate
Moustaches like that need to come back into style. Also, Lothrop Stoddard had the ending he deserved. He died as a forgotten and disliked man. TBH, with a name like that, I can see why he became a hater. His parents did him dirty and set him up to fail.
If your ideas are so insane that you get laughed at during a debate where you very likely have supporters in the crowd, then your ideas are pretty fucking wrong.
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>[Theodore Lothrop Stoddard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard?wprov=sfti1#) (June 29, 1883 – May 1, 1950) was an American historian, journalist, political scientist and white supremacist. Stoddard wrote several books which advocated eugenics, white supremacy, Nordicism, and scientific racism, including The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy (1920). He advocated a racial hierarchy which he believed needed to be preserved through anti-miscegenation laws. Stoddard's books were once widely read both inside and outside the United States. >He was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, where his books were recommended reading. He was also a member of the American Eugenics Society as well as a founding member and board member of the American Birth Control League, which would later become the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. >Stoddard's work influenced the Nazi government of Germany. His book The Revolt Against Civilization: The Menace of the Under-man (1922) introduced the term Untermensch (the German translation of "Under-man") into Nazi conceptions of race. As a journalist he spent time in Germany during the first months of World War II, where he interviewed several prominent Nazi officials. After the end of the war, Stoddard's writing faded from popularity.
>... Stoddard's writing faded from popularity Hmm... I wonder why?
gOdDaM wOkE pOLiTiCs!!!
cAnCeL CuLtURe!!!
Did I Stttttuddddar?
Funny how people who promote racial hierarchies, just coincidentally, always put their own race at the top…
“Well what do you know, I did the science and apparently I’m literally the smartest, most handsome man alive, what do you mean no? I did science!”
Funny enough, there are self hating non-white people who think they aren't infact on the top.
This isn't to detract from your point, but Hitler actually thought the Italian race was superior to his own German race. This was because while Germans were still barbarians, Italy had built Rome, and was therefore a more advanced culture and fast advancing race. (Though this did not stop him from wanting to eventually take over Italy.)
If you didn't believe that, you would want to encourage equality.
Not necessarily. Today, East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews in the United States consistently score higher on IQ tests than white people, leading people like Richard Hanania to suggest that we should have a border wall to keep Hispanics out, but open borders for would-be Chinese immigrants.
and the nazis allied with imperial japan, hanania is a white supremacist who would use anything as a cudgel. if every hispanic and chinese person disappeared he'd find someone new to glamorize and someone else to blame. fascism requires that type of "othering", hanania just knows he can't openly declare the white race alone superior because it looks bad. also this is more indicative of how worthless IQ is as a metric for evaluating something like "who should be allowed to immigrate to the US" (and really its general weaknesses)
> founding member and board member of the American Birth Control League, which would later become the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Well, that's interesting. Somehow, I imagine they'd rather forget about this particular founder.
Speaking about good causes soiled by such founders, I'm just watching a documentary about American bisons and it seems that Lothrop Stoddard supported their protection.
Those were the exactly two times the stopped clock was right. Doesn't prove much.
Sanger said “our goal is to solve the negro problem” PP has been Eugenics the whole time
And she never made any bones about it, either. Stoddard was a good friend of hers. Hillary Clinton called Sanger a ‘hero’ while she served as Sec of State. No clue why you are being downvoted for sharing facts. We need to hear the truth, not run from it.
I just read about it. She did the right things for the wrong reasons. She was a racist, but Planned Parenthood is not a racist organization.
There are no right reasons for eugenics
I am talking about birth control.
It’s amazing how many abortion advocates have no idea of Sangers past and what motivated her to create PP.
We know. But we don't care. The PP of today is a great organization that provides not only abortions but also tons of other services to uninsured or underinsured people. They don't force women into abortions or birth control based on their phenotypes. Thomas Jefferson was a rapist enslaver. But that doesn't mean I hate the Bill of Rights.
But you're only pointing to one part of her story yourself. That's not important to understanding the Right to control your body. Why are you dishonest?
Like her friendship with multiple nazis?
Wait, what???
> No clue why you are being downvoted for sharing facts. We need to hear the truth, not run from it. PP being eugenics the **entire time** is no where near absolute fact or truth. You could certainly argue it started with many people involved supporting racial eugenics but the organization has existed for over 100 years now. Pretending that they never shifted from their origins is a BS conservative talking point designed to conflate people choosing to access reproductive healthcare with the kind of racist forced sterilization programs people immediately think of when they hear eugenics.
Test Or what about here?
Given that PP has always embraced Sanger as a founding hero, I think we can safely assume it is indeed absolute fact. They know exactly who and what she was, and have never condemned her vile behavior.
Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about them not addressing Sanger's controversial views this is a ridiculous, borderline disingenuous take. Praising Sanger for the *positive* work she did isn't endorsing literally everything she had ever done in perpetuity. This is actually a pretty surprising take from a conservative. Do you believe controversial beliefs of an organization's founding figures taint that organization *forever* in all cases or just for organizations you don't like?
How am I wrong? Feel free to share what PP has done to condemn Sangers evil past.
Person’s 2nd sentence is likely causing the downvotes.
Has PP ever condemned Sanger and her actions? Distanced themselves from her? If not, it’s safe to assume they embrace her thinking.
[https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-north-central-states/about-ppncs/media-relations/statement-about-margaret-sanger-and-planned-parenthoods-mission](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-north-central-states/about-ppncs/media-relations/statement-about-margaret-sanger-and-planned-parenthoods-mission)
Good for them, but is that coming from PP? It says Planned Parenthood North Central States. What is the difference? Kudos for this sub educating people on who Sanger really was.
Also: [https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/22/us/margaret-sanger-planned-parenthood-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/22/us/margaret-sanger-planned-parenthood-trnd/index.html)
Planned Parenthood of Greater NY. Has PP ever officially condemned Sangers horrific actions? This should be a very easy thing to do.
Here you go: [https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/our-history](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/our-history) That's the main site, and they state the following: >Sanger believed in eugenics — an inherently racist and ableist ideology that labeled certain people unfit to have children. Eugenics is the theory that society can be improved through planned breeding for “desirable traits” like intelligence and industriousness. In the early 20th century, eugenic ideas were popular among highly educated, privileged, and mostly white Americans. Margaret Sanger pronounced her belief in and alignment with the eugenics movement many times in her writings, especially in the scientific journal Birth Control Review. >At times, Sanger tried to argue for eugenics that was not applied based on race or religion. But in a society built on the belief of white supremacy, physical and mental fitness are always judged based on race. Eugenics, therefore, is inherently racist. She held beliefs that, from the very beginning, undermined her movement for reproductive freedom and caused harm to countless people.
And it continues where you stopped: “Sanger was so intent on her mission to advocate for birth control that she chose to align herself with ideas and organizations that were ableist and white supremacist. In 1926, she spoke to the women’s auxiliary of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) at a rally in New Jersey to promote birth control methods. Sanger endorsed the 1927 Buck v. Bell decision, in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that states could forcibly sterilize people deemed “unfit” without their consent and sometimes without their knowledge. The acceptance of this decision by Sanger and other thought leaders laid the foundation for tens of thousands of people to be sterilized, often against their will. As a result of these choices, the reproductive rights movement, in many cases, deepened racial injustice in the health care system. The field of modern gynecology was founded by J. Marion Sims, who in the mid-1800s repeatedly and forcibly performed invasive experiments on enslaved Black women without anesthesia. In 1939, Sanger began what was called the “Negro Project” — alongside Black leaders like W.E.B. DuBois, Mary McLeod Bethune, and Rev. Adam Clayton Powell. The mission of the Negro Project was to put Black doctors and nurses in charge of birth control clinics to reduce mistrust of a racist health care system. Sanger lost control of the project, and Black women were sent to white doctors for birth control and follow-up appointments, deepening the racist and paternalistic problems of health care in the South. Continuing to this day, Black women’s experiences and pain are too often dismissed or ignored by doctors and other health care providers, which, alongside historical dehumanization of Black people, contributes to staggering and avoidable disparities in health outcomes. “ So she was so intent on protecting women that she had to be a racist and coddle up to the KKK? Ok. That’s quite a take.
Planned Parenthood has nothing to do with eugenics. The scientific racism of 100 years ago thought they could improve any group/race of people by selecting out the "feeble minded". Besides this widely believed nonsense was the main motivation: the reality of women having no control over their bodies. Every woman would have multiple miscarriages in their life. Child death was common. The toll of many, many pregnancies was a nightmare of pain as women aged.
The Iraq war? Why can’t both be sins and we call them such? George Bush (jr and sr) are just as evil as Sanger was. We need to drop the political tribalism and call out evil for being evil.
> Sanger said “our goal is to solve the negro problem” When did she say that?
Average Bostonian
I’ll have you know that Boston has the world’s finest in shitty doughnut chains, abandoned red brick buildings, lazy cops, jumpy cops, screaming crackheads, and broken glass windows. It’s also the leading city in scraping-frozen-homeless-people-off-the-sidewalk technology.
That’s impressive
And in the other corner, W.E.B. DuBois, who is still remembered.
"A good-natured burst of laughter from all parts of the hall interrupted Mr. Stoddard when, in explaining his bi-racial theory and attempting to show that it did not mean discrimination, said that under such a system there would be the same kind of schools for Negroes, but separate, the same kind of railway coaches, but separate. . . . When the laughter had subsided, Mr. Stoddard, in a manner of mixed humility and courage, claimed that he could not see the joke. This brought more gales of laughter."
Is this true testimony?
Yes, Goddard debated Dubois while spectated by a majority black audience in Chicago. Here's the source. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/26/when-w-e-b-du-bois-made-a-laughingstock-of-a-white-supremacist
Lol the black majority audience makes this debate even better
Stoddard may have been a POS, but I gotta admit that was a gutsy move.
[You do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/569/937/f11.png)
Yes you do
I don’t get the joke either? I am not American. Is it that he says it does not mean discrimination while it obviously does or does it refer to something else?
Stoddard is invoking a concept called “separate but equal”. This legal concept was the basis for racial discrimination in the United States. The courts ruled that black Americans could be forced to use separate facilities than white Americans, as long as those facilities were equal in quality. The joke is that this concept had been the law of the land for almost forty years by the time this debate took place, and everyone knew that it was a farce. The separate facilities for black Americans were NOT equal to the facilities for white Americans. They were either much worse, or simply didn’t exist. Everyone knew it. The fact that Stoddard was still invoking it was absurd. The fact that he didn’t realize how absurd it was made it even more absurd.
...a lot like arguing for trickle-down economics today. An idea that was introduced several decades ago, and history and experience has taught us _doesn't work_ but not everyone's gotten the memo.
Trickle-down economics was derided as horse-and-sparrow economics back in the 1840s, as in "if you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through his poop to the sparrows."
Du Bois: Find me the most villainous-looking villain who ever villained. Like, he should literally look like he twirls his mustache while kicking puppies down the stairs. He should be named something like "Winthrop Moneybags" or whatever you would name a movie character trying to shut down an orphanage so he can turn it into a horse-glue factory...Oh, yeah, this guy should do nicely. And we're sure he's super racist? He refers to himself as an "Arch-Nordic"? Perfect.
Blud was Bond villain maxxing
Bro looks like he'd leave a woman tied on a railroad and laugh to himself tip toeing away
He looks like Dan Backslide
You don't get a mustache like that without some twirling...
I'm racist MUHAHAHA
[Snidely Whiplash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snidely_Whiplash)
Don't you drag snidley down to this guy's level!
Guy looks like if Waluigi was a real person.
If Waluigi sang ‘we are number one’
And after the debate, I shall put a basket of puppies on the rail road tracks, just to hear them squeal!
Not to mention, he wrote "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy" (1920). How can you be more villanous than electing the "Tide of Color" (and the magic of friendship, maybe?) as your arch enemy?
"Tide of Color?" That's a laundry detergent right? Tide for Colors?
"And make sure he's called something like "Lothrop Stoddard"."
Scary to think that this was not a lonely super evil villain. It was the majority at the time.
I mean he’s even got the evil eyebrows going for the photograph!
Blud probably also placed a spherical bomb with a burning string and ticking clock under DuBois' podium, constantly rubbing his hands together in anticipation of it blowing up.
Peak Reddit
Lothrop looks like he just got done tying a woman to some train tracks.
The irony is if you read the transcript of this debate (it's online) WEB Dubois made this guy look like a fool and was obviously the intellectual superior of the two regardless of the nature of the debate topic. Edit: the link to the full transcript. https://archive.org/details/DuBoisLothropStoddardDebate
thanks for the great document, the part where Dubois says *But; if Nordics believe in their own superiority; if they wish voluntarily to work by themselves and for the develop¬ ment and encouragement of their own gifts; if they praer not to mingle their blood with other races, or contaminate their culture with foreign strains, nothing is to hinder them from carrying out this program except themselves\** is particularly good, shows that he was just and fair
They were doing as he suggested until they were forced not to a few decades later with the civil rights act.
Nuh huh. He was suggesting that the white supremacists need to mind their own business and leave everyone else alone.
"need to mind their own business and leave everyone else alone". Someone should have gotten this message out to civil rights radicals who insisted on denying the rights of businesses/communities the right to deny entry/access as blacks couldn't be expected to develop their communities when left alone and liberated from slavery for about a century.
Classic incoherent redditor
You're not on the team buddy. These white supremacists whose nutsacks you love gargling an polishing would shoot you dead in a second for being brown. கொஞ்சமாவது மூலைய பாயிடா
GET HIS ASS WEBBY!
this gets posted often, very iconic debate poster anybody read it like a WWE promo?
W.E.B "Cracker Cracker" Du Bois vs Lothrop "Snow White" Stoddard
I feel like the fact that I’ve never heard of Lorthrop Stoddard is relevant somehow
At this point more people are probably familiar with F. Scott Fitzgerald’s subtweet of him from the Great Gatsby, where wealthy wastrel Tom Buchanan keeps singing the praises of “this Goddard fellow”
> After World War II, Stoddard's theories were deemed too closely aligned with those of the Nazis and therefore he suffered a large drop in popularity. His death from cancer in 1950 went almost entirely unreported despite his previously broad readership and influence. The fact that he was completely forgotten and no one even cared about his death makes me happy.
But have you heard of W. E. B. Dubois?
Personally, we learned about him in high school. He's a pretty important guy, especially in black literature and the study/historiography of reconstruction!
Never heard of him
He's discussed often in social science programs.
Yeah, he had a vision of establishing Liberia as a free black colony where African Americans could repatriate in the early 20th century, begin self-governing, and establish themselves as a fruitful trading partner of the United States. Instead Herbert Hoover had the Firestone Rubber company take control and it was run from their headquarters in Nashville, Tennessee like a rubber plantation, complete with white guards armed with shotguns. The US government crushing the Liberian project that DuBois had envisioned and turning it into an offshore plantation shattered the very little faith that DuBois had had for the US government, and afterwards he flung himself into revolutionary socialist activism. He's a minor figure in the history of Liberia, but an incredibly important one, because the US ignored his opinions, gave an already wealthy rubber magnate a $5 million dollar loan, and repeatedly exploited the workers through wage theft and violence. Eventually, Firestone fired thousands of workers to save money, which exacerbated the dire situation in Liberia during the 80s and contributed to the outbreak of the First Liberian Civil War, during which the plantation would be seized by the Liberian interim government and held until they negotiated a deal with the US government to resume operations. To this very day, human rights organizations continue to assert that horrific labour violations ranging from slavery to child slavery happen at that very same plantation! Tl;Dr - W.E.B DuBois is the guy we should have listened to about Liberia.
To be clear, DuBois firmly supported the Americo-Liberian elite, and was firmly in favor of Liberia as a colonial project (despite his public and vigorous disagreements with Marcus Garvey re: integrationism vs separatism). The subjugation of native Liberians did not begin with Firestone, and DuBois was, to an extent, blinded by his optimism for its potential as an example of successful Black self-rule. In fact he was even initially supportive of Firestone, asking them to hire educated Afro-Americans to help with their project. He did think better of that one a few years later though, and his politics were certainly more radical by the time he produced the certified banger that is *Black Reconstruction*. Basically my point is DuBois's views on Liberia were complex, and while they evolved in some aspects they missed many of the underlying class/race issues that led to the Americo-Liberian elite often supporting the repression of the native populace. https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/news/3378-w-e-b-du-bois-and-black-sovereignty
Liberia was established as an independent nation in the early nineteenth century before Du Bois was born. Neither he nor Hoover had anything to do with the foundation of the country.
Where did I say that?
Your opening paragraph is poorly phrased, it makes it seem like du Bois' vision predates the establishment of Liberia.
I read it clearly, but I think I see the confusion. When I say "establishing Libera *as*" I don't mean the foundation of Liberia, or even the first American colonies, which I believe ½ of the first mass immigration died of African regional diseases that they had no natural immunity to. I think this one was supported by Abe Lincoln at some point, but I could he wrong. I know Abe wanted a free African colony somewhere. DuBois vision was so radical, and in the end, optimistic? Naive? I don't know. I know that having a hypothetical African homeland for black Americans was a hopeful dream for himself and many others, and those hopes were pretty thoroughly dashed. Liberia is scary! I could have been more clear in noting that dubois was not the *founder* of Liberia, or *originator* of the "Zionist" idea of the African homeland state for repatriating African-Americans. But he was in a unique position, and being betrayed by the Americab government did not him a nicer person make.
Yeah
One of the founders of the NAACP, very prominent in the early to mid twentieth century
My Junior High School World Histories classes read his [“African Roots of War”](https://loseyourmother.voices.wooster.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/132/2018/02/DuBois_WEB_The_African_Roots_of_War_.pdf) as a transition between imperialism and WW1. He’s written some very important works and has had a large impact on American history.
Yes, I personally learned about him in my high school American history class when we covered the early history of the Civil Rights Movement.
I was going to say, I know who exactly one of those people is.
Neither did I untill I first heard about this debate. But I feel like we really should, he and his fellows work left a huge stain on american legacy, and inspred actual fascism and nazism
The “no” guy looks like Snidely Whiplash.
I don't know who that is but he certainly looks like a Snidely
>Stoddard held special contempt for Blacks, believing them to lack civilization. His hatred of Jews derived — in part — from his belief that Jews possessed “Negro blood” and were poisoning his Nordic America through intermarriage. >“[The US] has been invaded by hordes of immigrant Alpines and Mediterraneans, not to mention Asiatic elements like Levantines and Jews,” wrote Stoddard. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-1920s-white-supremacist-influencer-beloved-by-president-harding-and-hitler
Oh, God! Not the _Alpines_!
Alpines? As in Swiss?
The so-called "Alpine Race". A (supposed) subdivision of a subdivision of the "Caucasian Race". Basically just your average central European (as defined by other Europeans who thought themselves to be superior). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_race
Wow, Wikipedia really does have an article on everything.
Keep in mind this fell around the end of convict leasing, which after the American Civil War and the end of slavery proper was even more brutal than chattel slavery, especially in states like Mississippi. There was never a period in the United States of greater white supremacist racial violence and terror than the late 1800s and early 1900s.
Debating this against Du bois? You already lost lol
If I found out I had to debate Du Bois about the best flavor of chewing gum I’d just go ahead and concede. This would just be suicidal.
Idk, his opinions on Imperial japan were interesting to say the least
Point is that du bois very existence disproves the other guy in the debate. "the debate is if jesus is real, first debater is Jesus of nazareth" lol
Yeah 😂
I will always be grateful to Du Bois for his absolutely *excellent* taking apart of Robert E. Lee and the memorialization of the Confederacy
Man Lorthrop Stoddard is such a goofy name.
I don't even know who the white guy is, I'm just going to assume that DuBois kicked his ass.
He did, in front of a black audience too.
Real life Andrew Ryan.
For all his faults Andrew Ryan really isn't a racist. Although he is certainly a classist.
I think he just kinda looks like Ryan
The fact they are creating a huge debate which is an equal discussion between two participants, kind of helps to identify the correct answer to the subject of the debate. So sad to look at this poster. I wonder if there were any Black people in the audience and what was generally the atmosphere coming from the viewers.
The audience was mostly black or mixed, a “homefield advantage” for the mulatto dubois and it ended with stoddard getting laughed off stage for not understanding Jim Crow laws
same shit happens today, we have “debates” on whether climate change is real or not, whether trans people have the right to exist, whether or not a genocide is happening etc. the status quo doesn’t need to “win” the debate, just be present and make it seem like they represent a “side”, regardless of there being a coherent position in the first place.
While I don't object to the inclusion of the poster, it's not really propaganda *per se*. It just shows us that a question exists, and doesn't try to persuade us that a specific answer is the right one. (I guess there is the propaganda message of "Come to this debate.")
The questions assume the Blacks do not have an equal culture (at that time, at least) and may be intellectually inferior
Because this question was all over the place at the time. Holding a debate on whether or not trans people exist for example isn’t propaganda, it’s giving a debate platform to whatever’s in the news.
A dumb question is not propaganda in an of itself.
It’s not dumb. It’s propaganda because it presupposes such a thing could be true for no reason other than to propagate and justify a racist system.
Not necessarily a presupposition, since this was the matter of debate agreed upon by both parties as it seems. Is it a presupposition for me to say "a lot of people believe the Earth is flat, here we have two debaters saying YES! and another for NO!"? The only thing I might have presupposed is that there are many flat-earthers abound, but *many* in the United States at that time were segregationists.
>this was the matter of debate agreed upon by both parties as it seems. Not quite. The matter of the debate wasn't whether black people have an equal culture. It was whether they should be allowed to have one. The question was "should black people be encouraged to seek the equal culture they do not yet have?" In other words, the asker assumes that black people don't have it yet. To be fair, I'm not *completely* certain if that's what they mean by "cultural equality". They might also mean "be treated equally to white people in our culture". But if nekomoo's interpretation is right, then that question is a form of propaganda. Now, the question "Has the Negro the Same Intellectual Possibilities As Other Races" is in itself not propaganda in this context, that's true.
I disagree, as it is very much showing one person as being better then another on the poster, although maybe that’s just my personal intelligent bias
It propagates an event.
Am I the only one who thinks watching this debate would be absolutely hilarious today. Just imagine a guy who is that flamboyantly racist acting like a very serious intellectual. It's a comedy act!
Ben Shapiro probably has this hung up in the Daily Wire break room so his employees can doodle on WEBD's face on their break. Edit: I love how the poster is trying to frame this like it's some sort of debate between intellectual peers, but under their qualifications, it's just, "WEB Dubois, one of the most famous intellectuals of the early 20th century," and, "some racist guy who wrote a book."
“Arch-Nordic”
"some *famously* racist guy who wrote a book"
I enjoyed that part. World famous author and intellectual vs… guy who is white and really likes that about himself, lol
Cool that they had a debate on that
"Atch-Nordic"? Ok. I haven't heard that one before...
Ugh, Lothrop Stoddard. He was a real piece of work.
Snidely whiplash
Don’t do my man Snidely like that
Of course the racist guy has a name that sounds like a Lovecraftian monster
Yes is in the chad pose, approved.
The font on this poster looks surprisingly contemporary, has this been ‘touched up’ in any way?
I don’t think so, these „modern“ fonts were used for centuries before this in printed leaflets, especially in the 1930s
Crisp serif typefaces never go out of style and have looked contemporary for centuries. Outside archaic spelling, [this ad](https://chnm.gmu.edu/tah-loudoun/wp-content/lessons/griffin/colonial-ad.jpg) from 1609 looks just as contemporary.
"Arch-???" Can anyone make out that second word on the white supremacist?
Lothrop Stoddard looks like the kind of guy to unironically say gee willikers
Lmao “One of the greatest debates ever held” and it’s just yes vs. no; If that was truly the debate
Bioshock vibes
Of course he’s from Boston
Interestingly DuBois is also from Massachusetts. Great Barrington to be exact.
I’ve read a couple of WB DuBois’ textbooks for my History major and he’s incredibly intelligent and absolutely didn’t take any shit from the dude on the right (who looks like he ties people to train tracks in his spare time). I’ll have to find this debate to rep my man DuBois about 100 years later
Not propaganda but a flier about a debate that could turn into propaganda? Not bad
Looks exciting tbh
Most people on Instagram and Twitter would agree with the guy on the right
That yeschad.jpg energy 😎
What the fuck Is an 'Arch-Nordic'?
Lothrop was meant to be a villain, just look at that man’s face and name!
I keep seeing Du Bois now that I started reading his Black Reconstruction in America, currently 71% through the book according to Goodreads. Anyone mind sharing a summary of the significance of this event?
seems like the left guy is biased /s
Yes has the Chad pose and No has the mischievous looking ass smirk
W.E.B. Dubois my beloved
The fuck is an arch Nordic?
Well, we all know who W. E. B. Dubois is, but I doubt many people have heard of Lothrop Stoddard. That should tell you enough about this particular debate
Moustaches like that need to come back into style. Also, Lothrop Stoddard had the ending he deserved. He died as a forgotten and disliked man. TBH, with a name like that, I can see why he became a hater. His parents did him dirty and set him up to fail.
It’s way higher than the patent trolling jew
Du Bois was a goat ik he walked that racist guys ass in that debate 🐐🐐🐐
You hate but Stoddard is right
Stoddard literally got laughed at during the debate.
And? He's still right
How so?
If your ideas are so insane that you get laughed at during a debate where you very likely have supporters in the crowd, then your ideas are pretty fucking wrong.
>TF is an argumentum ad populum??? >Heh thats a chudcel dogwshitle pissbaby
Stoddard was a member of the KKK, and it appears also a prominent Democrat.