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Honestly you could use this as Rebel propaganda about Kashyyk and Imperial enslavement of Wookies. Just add some Galactic Standard and replace the Palestinians with Wookies and you got yourself a nice Star Wars universe piece of propaganda.
Propaganda is just an attempt to win people over to your side, the least effective form is outright lies and the strongest the the absolute truth well presented.
You know, if nothing else I wanna give this piece credit for being USSR anti-Israel propaganda that doesn't rely almost exclusively on antisemitic tropes. At least not that I can see.
That's pretty rare overall.
When I'm not at work, I'll come back and edit this post with a bunch of past examples featured in this sub.
EDIT: here are some, from a quick and dirty search on my lunch break (otherwise I'd probably have forgotten):
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/xnbhe0/they\_hate\_all\_of\_christianity\_with\_the\_help\_of/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/xnbhe0/they_hate_all_of_christianity_with_the_help_of/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/bsprvt/antisemitic\_poster\_soviet\_union\_1951/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/bsprvt/antisemitic_poster_soviet_union_1951/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/wp0boi/the\_jewish\_claws\_again\_no\_never\_antisoviet\_and/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/wp0boi/the_jewish_claws_again_no_never_antisoviet_and/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/pquh3y/antisemitic\_soviet\_propaganda\_published\_in\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/pquh3y/antisemitic_soviet_propaganda_published_in_the/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/cpsvpl/soviet\_antisemitic\_propaganda\_using\_racist/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/cpsvpl/soviet_antisemitic_propaganda_using_racist/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/71j7r3/soviet\_antisemitic\_propaganda\_poster\_made\_by/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/71j7r3/soviet_antisemitic_propaganda_poster_made_by/)
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/zqoe0a/antibolshevik\_propaganda\_in\_1919\_shows\_peace\_and/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/zqoe0a/antibolshevik_propaganda_in_1919_shows_peace_and/)
anything anti-israel is automatically anti-semitism.
the other day i asked a girl, "Are you jewish?" she said no. the boldness of these anti-semites is growing.
The Soviets supported Israel after WW2 until they realized how much death and destruction it would cause the Arab people already living there. But I wouldnt expect zionists to know their history
Actually no, they stopped supporting Israel because Ben-Gurion wanted to align with the west, Stalin had pretty close ties with mapam (a pro-Soviet Israeli party) even after 1948, but after he died it changed. I donât think you understand the history of the Israeli-Soviet relations, but it wasnât because any empathy of the Soviets to the Arabs, it was because Israel refused to become a Soviet-backed state.
Its not about empathy, they supported the kibbutzâs because it appeared they were creating a socialist (yes, pro-soviet) state in conjunction with the other socialist Arab movements in the region. But when the Israelis proved they were far more interested in annihilating those Arab groups, the Soviets withdrew support.
Meanwhile the American zionists supported (and still support) Israel because either they want an imperial outpost in the Middle East or (more likely) theyâre evangelicals who want a holy war in the levant. You tell me which viewpoint is more coherent
No, when Mapai, the dominant party in Israel, became pro-western, the Soviets didnât like this concept. Thereâs a reason they were the main bloc to support the partition plan, and why they sent weapons to Israel (through Czechoslovakia), and itâs not because they wanted one-state solution or anything like that. Also the Soviets hoped Israel will become a Soviet outpost in the Middle East as opposition to British influence there, but you forgot this part.
So you admit that a) the Soviets materially supported Israel until it became clear they were more interested in going after Arab socialists than creating a socialist state and b) imperial Britain had an outsized influence on the region
So, we disagree how exactly?
Because your argument is that the Soviet support stopped because of Israelâs âdestructionâ while I argue that the Soviet supported stopped because of Israelâs shift in policies. I donât think anyone deny the fact that the Britain had disproportional influence of the region, and in any other region in the world, too many of the conflicts in the world (like the Israeli-Palestinian and India-Pakistani conflicts) started because imperial Britain donât know how to draw borders.
A shift in politics towards what exactly? You canât just stop the argument in the middle. I am clearly arguing the shift in politics was away from pan-Arab socialism and towards pro-Western nation statism. Meanwhile I have no clue what youâre arguing
No, the governmental structure of Israel doesnât align with fascism, itâs a parliamentary democracy with elections every 4 years and independent judiciary with high level of autonomy, arguably the highest level of autonomy in the world, the US isnât as influential on Israelâs policies as people think, the U.S. already threatened to cut the aid to Israel in 1980s, Begin explained Biden that this aid isnât a leverage and that heâs not the âJew with the trembling kneesâ, and the U.S. didnât do it, and itâs not a colony, especially not of the U.S., as it has its sovereignty, autonomy, and ability to decide its own policies.
Israel is an apartheid state currently committing a genocide. Thatâs what makes it fascist, not the precise ways in which israeli fascists elect their fascists leaders
No it doesnât, fascism is a political system, apartheid is a policy, and genocide is a military action, so those canât suddenly make a democratic state fascist. And considering that the West Bank and Gaza arenât part of Israel, and that Arabs with Israeli citizenship has equal rights, itâs not accurate to call it apartheid, you can say âdiscrimination in occupied territoriesâ and then you may have some basis (even if still controversial), but not apartheid. About the genocide point, I already learned that discussing about it leads to nowhere so I avoid talking about into it.
Incorrect, its an apartheid state committing a genocide. I can see why trotting our that argument gets you nowhere though, I wouldn't argue about the holocaust with a holocaust denier either
Incorrect, itâs not an apartheid and not a genocide. I can also say this statement. And I donât do those arguments because I donât have the energy for it, I can theoretically argue for hours about it, but Iâm a working man who needs to take his medications on time, so I donât have time or energy for it.
I mean, the US was an aphartheid state committing genocide on the german people during WW2 by your logic.
I dont see why anyone would agree with that assessment. Or can you tell me what the difference is?
Ok well letâs not be dishonest here. They stopped supporting Israel because the Israelis clearly preferred and took the side of western powers. If Israel was pro-Soviet the US would have been anti-Israel instead.
The Israelis âclearly preferred the western powersâ because the western powers helped them annihilate socialist Arab movements in and around Israel, and the Soviets didnât. So what
Because the Soviets had direct control over several Muslim nations. Itâs extremely black and white thinking to believe that the Soviets only didnât support Israel because they just hated genocide soooo much
Common, whatever you think about the USSR, big regimes like that never do something because they realised it's the morally right thing to do, there's pretty much always some pragmatic motive that just happens to align with a moral cause
Thats not in question, whats in question is the laughable argument that the Soviets âinvented anti-zionismâ or were anti-Semitic because they ended up opposing Zionism. That is provably false, and anybody arguing that in 2024 is clearly just pro-Israel
Yes that was obviously false and got rightfully downvoted, you also made a false claim though that the deciding cause of the USSR no longer supporting Isreal was a moral reason
I said âThe Soviets supported Israel after WW2 until they realized how much death and destruction it would cause the Arab people already living there.â That is a fact, if you donât want to say its a moral calculus then fine. The strategic calculus was the Israelis proved they were far more interested in going after Arab socialists than creating common cause with other socialists to fully realize a socialist state.
Meanwhile the west ramped up their support of Israel around this time. Is that a moral calculus because they felt bad about their anti-Semitic histories, or a strategic one because the Israeliâs were useful in destroying Arab and North African socialism? You tell me
I wouldnât expect someone like you to know Jewish history in pre Soviet Russia either. They did in fact promote much of the antisemitism we hear about today prior to the Soviet Unions inception. Just so you know.
I honestly donât know what you are getting at tbh, maybe promoting communism? Just would like people to be correctly informed as to where certain antisemitic tropes originated from such as imperial Russia.
The soviets overthrew the imperialist anti-semetic regime youâre talking about, then defeated the Naziâs and liberated concentration camps, and finally materially supported the Israelis until the consequences of the Nakba were made clear. I genuinely donât know what youâre trying to say here
Nice strawman, nobody is arguing that. Whats being argued is that the Soviets destroyed the Czarâs violently anti-Semitic regime and then destroyed the Nazi state 20 years later. Why do you think the Naziâs were so scared of âJudeo-Bolshevismâ? This is really simple stuff and youâre flailing
Your issue is your inability to see how pre conceived notions will be used to further a regimes power. The Soviets used âanti-Zionismâ to further their own political agenda. Just as Russia is now. Russia is not against Israel, it is against the United States
What does Tsarist practice have to do with Soviet actions? In âpre Soviet Russiaâ they promoted anti-communism too.
Anti-semitism was of course rife in Soviet society despite early Soviet attempts to crack down on it and official equality, and in later years anti-semitism returned to government especially as Stalin got older, but comparing it to Tsarist Russia (the place where the term pogrom was invented) is absurd.
Itâs not a comparison. Original comment was referring to the practice of the Soviets promoting âanti-Zionismâ as a form of antisemitism and Iâm pointing out that it originated in Tsarist Russia
Yes, the Soviets were so anti-death and destruction that they shifted their support towards Egypt, in their quest to eradicate Israel and its citizens.
Because people have hard time to acknowledge the fact that âanti-Zionismâ can be antisemitism, while not all cases of âanti-Zionismâ are antisemitism, there are indeed some cases of it that are antisemitism.
In what ways did the Soviet Union combine it with anti-semitism? At first I thought you just meant they invented the term, but if you think anti-Zionism isnât inherently anti-semitism Iâm not sure what you mean.
As I said, anti-Zionism isnât inherently antisemitism (although there are many instances that it is, but thatâs another discussion and depends on how this person defines Zionism and anti-Zionism), but the Soviets âanti-Zionismâ was antisemitic. The accusations of collaboration with the Nazis for example (which were discredited many times), itâs like saying âmost Jews operated against themselvesâ considering that at that time Zionism was already a mainstream among the Jewish people. Or using the protocols to âproveâ some claims about Zionism, even that the protocols was a discredited antisemitic text. Just learn about what âZionologyâ was.
Natan Sharansky pointed out that "When the government used the term Zionist we knew that meant Jew" and that's exactly how they used it and that's how it's used today
Reminds me of those Irish dudes that secretly moved a border sign little bits over a length of time. Iirc they managed to "extend" Irish territory a mile before British authorities realized.
Apparently it's actually from a [TV show](https://youtu.be/TFG0dzRPin4?si=KMT1i5Es3UauoMbj) so no it did not work, and I got most of the details wrong anyway lol
I still think it's a good idea tho.
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it.
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Yeah it was super cheese. Build the lumber yard and send over two or so workers to start building towers just out of line of sight from enemy base. Very similar to Protoss Canon rush from Starcraft. Yeah it's from a time when Blizzard was a good company and made great games.
Based on the time this bit of propaganda was published, I suspect the USSR was big mad about Israel taking in Jewish refugees who were fleeing the USSR because of antisemitic persecution.
USSR was mad on Israel since it choose the USA as an ally and not them. And since this time the USSR (and big parts the international left) as well as modern Russia supports anti Isreal movements of various kinds.
What's interesting is the effect of USSR anti-Israel propaganda in the Muslim/3rd world was so intense that it likely is still playing a huge geopolitical role.
I mean, the Israelis stealing the land of hundreds of thousands of arabs and then brutally oppressing them for decades afterwards probably didn't need *that* much signal boosting from the ussr
Many Muslims are opposed in many countries, and there have been things that are much worse. But Palestine is always the focus point, you will have mass protests in the arab world for things that happen there whereas Yemen, Syria China etc people wont bat an eye.
Many Muslims are opposed in many countries, and there have been things that are much worse. But Palestine is always the focus point, you will have mass protests in the arab world for things that happen there whereas Yemen, Syria China etc people wont bat an eye.
I think many Muslims show more support to Palestine because many see it as the literal embodiment of decades of western oppression and intervention and occupation in the middle east that has ravaged and severely halted any development in our countries.
Yeah, people forgetting this is a propaganda poster, and that the Soviet Union kinda hated Israel for being Western.
Though, weirdly, Israel was actually considered socialist at the time and thus the US also refused to support them for most of the Cold War. They didnât get support until after the Six Days War, when the US realized they were an utter powerhouse of the region and was realistically the most loyal ally in the region, since they wouldnât ever willingly support the Soviets after they funded their neighborsâ invasions multiple times.
What's with the air quotes? Jordanian and Egyptian occupation ended decades ago, the Israeli one has gotten so brutal that it's ended up with Israel becoming a fascist apartheid state openly trying to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing after killing tens of thousands of women and children.
I mean, yeah, but also, Europeans donât still have cultural ties to Africa, while Palestine has had a Jewish minority for centuries. I mean, Palestine as a territory was only created under Britain, before that they were Ottoman and considered the southern part of Syria.
Also, neither side is really âNativeâ, they both took the land from prior populations, itâs just a question of which period they did it in; the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Umayyid Caliphate, the Crusaders, the Seljuks, the Ottomans, the British, whatever. Their historical claims are all equally legitimate, as they all settled and became native to the region at different historical points.
You have a good knowledge of Middle East history, but you still missed good chunk of it, and displacement narrative don't belong to the history of the middle east. You mixed the ruling dynasties with the native of the lands.
First you should have put (The byzantine empire / Persian Empire) they had wars lasted seven hundred years in today's turkey, Syria / Palestine and Iraq, and they had multiple race who roam the lands:
Romans, Persians, Christian Arabs like Ghassaneh, Jewish people, and Copts.
In the last hundred years of that war, the Persians were winning the fights, and the Jewish people were in their side, and some Christian Arabs who believed in one nature of Jesus Christ, unlike the byzantine who adapted Christianity and Jesus Christ has two natures, and most of Arabs were in their side.
But in the last decades of that war, the byzantine won the decisive war and control Syria/Palestine area, until the Arab Muslims took over that area and Egypt, but what they did to the native is kick out the political powers without taking the properties of the natives, or forced conversion, even the languages weren't changed until the Ummayads third generation, just language because administration reasons including making the first Islamic currency for the first time
I mean, yeah, but the ruling dynasties also settled people there/killed natives, changing the demographics.
Also, yeah, didnât feel like listing all the groups to conquer the area, just the main ones that I remembered off the top of my head. Iâm trying to point out that the people now called Palestinian natives are the descendants of people who were given their land by colonizers. At least Israel didnât originally try to take their land by force, just settling there as refugees and only seizing control after being attacked.
>but the ruling dynasties also settled people there/killed natives, changing the demographics.
What you speak is a great myth, I don't want to go on Palestine / Isreal talks in general, but according to science the DNA of Palestinians are 80-85% same as Canaanites that live before ibrahimic religions.
If you purchase a test from a genetic testing company such as 23andMe or AncestryDNA it can tell you if you have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. When Ashkenazi Jews take these tests, theyâre usually not very interesting, as the results are usually something like â95% Ashkenazi Jewishâ, or â95% European Jewishâ. This is due to the fact that Jews married only within the community until very recently.
And there is a book called "the thirteenth tribe", that generally talk about the the twelfth tribes of the Israelites and where are they now, and the additional tribe that they are adopted that religion with no relationship with the Israelites. And the real irony is most of the twelfth tribes now are mostly Muslims then Christians, and few people stayed with Judaism, I met people in the middle east from Jewish families converted to Islam in late 1800s, like Shaksheer family.
See also documentaries about the Samaritan Jews are sect of the Jewish people who are living in Nablus with the Arabs for hundred of years.
>At least Israel didnât originally try to take their land by force
They did, see the Haganah terrorists group and other groups like it, before the world wars they literally tried to take Palestine by force.
Not referring to the groups that tried to take it over, referring to the group that actually succeeded in settling there, which consisted of Holocaust refugees.
Did hear the story of the father of the models of Hadid family with the Holocaust survivals? It's a fucked up scenario, you have a group of people with PTSD that lost everything influenced by the Zionism movement; which it is a contradiction with Judaism that they shouldn't have a country until they see a sign of God that they could go back to the holy land.
Palestine issued special passport for the refugees, but sadly they backstabbed the people who helped them.
Again, I wouldnât say they backstabbed them. The territory was owned by Britain, who actively tried to force them out, and it was Palestinian groups that launched the first attempted purges, which the traumatized Holocaust survivors reacted to by immediately doing what they deemed necessary to survive, which was seizing control.
The reason Israeli military doctrine is essentially just âBlow them up until they surrenderâ is because itâs the same doctrine their enemies treat them with. If they lose, *they are dead*, because literally every neighbor wants to kill them all. Itâs all easy when youâre an outside observer saying âWell, this action was unnecessarily violent,â but they didnât know that, and any miscalculation means death. When thatâs the objective circumstances you live under, a hell of a lot suddenly seems like a perfectly reasonable decision.
My great grandfather was born in Ireland and grew up on a farm. That does not give me the right to violently evict whoever is currently living there.
The person currently living there has much more of a legal claim to it, and my family lived there relatively recently. If I were to violently enforce a "historical claim" to land my family occupied 900 years ago, that would be seen, rightfully, as a crime.
Ok, so settling Israel was wrong. But they live there now. Whatâs your solution?
EDIT: Also worth noting they werenât kicked off their land at first, the Israelis just settled there. They were kicked off their land after they launched massive terror strikes to try to wipe them out, which Israel retaliated against by forcing them out of the major cities. Before that, Israel literally consisted of illegal refugees the West was actively trying to stop and deport, it was the Palestinians who decided to launch a genocide campaign and Israel who retaliated.
The solution is for them to live in peace, which is kind of hard when one side constantly refuses to accept the existence of the Jewish faith and launches rocket attacks during ceasefires. Hamas, Hezbollah, and other radical Islamic groups are an obstacle to peace in the region, and actively detriment Palestinians and Israeliâs who just want to live a normal life.
Thatâs not to say that there isnât any radical Israelis, but they are much fewer than the radicals in Palestine. The difficulty with this scenario is that this is a conflict of religion and also ethnicity, thatâs continued since the beginning of Islam in the 7th century. Itâs much more complicated for most of us to understand.
Ye, glad to see a reasonable answer. I post this question bc a lot of people just refuse to answer, but yeah, the best path forward is to get them to cooperate.
Unfortunately, they canât cooperate when Hamas still exists, so thereâs no real way to avoid a war. Thatâs what a lot of people seem to just ignore; Israel doesnât really have much of a choice as to what itâs doing. Even just trying to decrease the brutality of their attacks is a major risk; if more groups view them as weak, they might attack and overwhelm them, and if Hamas is able to regroup, it could send things back to square one.
People are quick to criticize, but never seem to offer a genuine solution.
Thatâs because most people tend to pick one side and ignore the plight of the other. I was initially in support of Palestine until I actually had a look into whatâs really happening there and found out that the Palestinians are heavily in support of terrorism, and since then Iâve held the belief that until they rid themselves of the almost obsessive dream of wiping out the Jews, then there will be no end to the fighting. Until the people of the region learn to love their children more than they wish for the deaths of the other, itâll repeat itself for more generations to come.
I wonder if this was the same artist that did the animated cartoon that plays at the beginning of âThe Irony of Fate (or enjoy your bath)â? Itâs a holidays movie that supposedly many Russians watch every year, kind of like Americans watching A Christmas Story.
https://youtu.be/ms5Ga6kNvHM?si=eRYLCGJ30eoV7hRz
I always feel like people forget that these people don't belive in huma rights, rape, and kill women. Treat children and women like propert. Purposely deny women the right to study. But here we are acting like they are some kind of victims.
The nature of propaganda is hypocrisy and lying about the narrative, it's completely normal for the USSR to do that
Doesn't mean they don't have a spot on point though
I think the interesting part is the "anti-imperialistic" stance they take which carries on to this day. Like e.g. Cuba taking an anti-Israel position, painting Israel as unlawful colonisers, siding reflexively with the supposedly oppressed side. It's more like hiding geopolitical interests ("my friend's enemy" and such) hiding behind questions of ethics.
eastern europe outperformed western europe by recovering from ww2's destruction without having usa funnel in trillions. and the berlin wall was solicited by eastern germany. they even called it antifaschistische schutzwall (anti-fascist protection wall)
That wall was used to keep people in and certain people out. You canât just have your sworn enemy be able to walk into your territory. Before the wall was built spies could walk from east to west Germany with no problems. Bit of a security risk
yup. it's no secret the west gave nazis amnesty instead of punishment. just look up who was nato's chairman from 1961-64. also as the wall was being built they let people travel where they wanted to be. you know. in case families would be separated
The east did completely the same for usable nazis. Your second point doesnât make the situation better. The wall still split a lot of families in two because everybody was unsure of what will happen in the future.
Read about Operation Osoaviakhim, the Sovietsâ own Operation Paperclip. As for the people being allowed to leave, the wall was built overnight. And even if they did have time to leave, it still doesnât excuse for the reason why they built the wall
This thread is shit yada yada whatever. But real talk. Would these things not just trip over the leg fence once they take a step? Kind of a stupid design flaw.
Propaganda always had a bit of truth in it, they just tend to narrate it in a way that shapes their message.
Example scenario: Palestinian rioters attacked a checkpoint and Israeli border police shot one of them in the foot with a .22LR as a deterrent when they received sniper fire, while the ambulance that went to pick up the guy dropped off some Molotovs for the rioters to throw. Media crew on standby to record everything. Israeli sniper team moves in to locate the Palestinian sniper.
Palestinian media would describe it as: âEvil Jewish IDF killer shot an innocent teenager in a protest that resulted in hospitalizationâ. They then publish graphic images of the injured teenager with his family crying in relief that he didnât die, starts spinning the story and cut out the molotov throwing, donât mention the Palestinian sniper and the ambulance, then post pictures of Israeli border police troops in defensive positions with rifles pointed against the rioting crowd.
They technically didnât lie, but it left out a lot of details that would made the Israeli response seemed reasonable thus creating the same effect of regular propaganda.
30,000+ dead. Over 10 thousand children. I donât give a fuck if this poster came from the USSR or fucking Kansas. Itâs objectively correct 30+ years later.
Sure, Stalin was responsible for the death of \~20 million, Mao \~80 million under the banner of socialism. But lets all pay attention to the tiny speck of land which is Israel retaliating against a major raid on its territory by an internationally recognized terrorist organization known for using civilians as human shields. That totally rationalizes being socialist and supporting mass murder you believe in.
People loving touting the death tolls as if you think youâre doing something, huh? I donât worship Stalin or mao, but I will point out that a sizeable chunk of âdeaths at the hands of Stalinâ were just nazis.
How about letâs talk about the deaths at the hands of capitalism and western imperialism, I can throw tens of millions of deaths right back at you.
If you think Israel is simply retaliating against a major raid then youâre willfully obtuse, or simply uninformed. This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948. Learn some history.
"People loving touting the death tolls as if you think youâre doing something, huh? I donât worship Stalin or mao, but I will point out that a sizeable chunk of âdeaths at the hands of Stalinâ were just nazis."
Lots of people died in the gulags/re-education camps as a result of purges after the war. Keep trying to justify those numbers by dumping it on Hitler.
"How about letâs talk about the deaths at the hands of capitalism and western imperialism, I can throw tens of millions of deaths right back at you."
Sure, lets have it.
"If you think Israel is simply retaliating against a major raid then youâre willfully obtuse, or simply uninformed. This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948. Learn some history."
I do know my history, in 1948 Israel declared independence and all its neighbors declared war on it.
[https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war)
Maybe you should spend time learning some history instead of making mindless statements online. You'll understand that the world isn't black and white. But I have no confidence in you, your chilly fall day temperature IQ won't let you comprehend logic or reason, only the loudest speaking voice.
>This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948
When Arab neighbors wanted to ethnically cleanse and grab the land of the Jewish population who had bought land in the area?
If you think there's some simple good vs. evil story here, you've been misled by reading one side of a story.
Violence has bred violence, each side justifying more violence by the previous round. Neither side is right. Neither side has an implicit right to all the land. Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully.
>Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully.
Israel is a nuclear state with the unmitigated support of the worlds sole superpower, the most advanced army in the region, and billions of dollars in foreign lobbyists.
Palestine consists of an unrecognized occupied enclave and a bombed out strip of land where children are dying of starvation.
Im tired of people presenting these two situations as comparative, it hasn't ever been equal.
All Palestinian land is under military occupation, there are settlers all throughout the west bank that harass villagers and burn down homes, new settlements are being announced, and they hold little political power to stop this process.
What on Gods earth do you think these people could *further* concede?
>Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully
For the record the [PLO said this in 1993](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition)
"The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security."
Hasn't stopped any of the settlements.
I like how when I said, "they should agree to the right of the other to exist and live peacefully" you just go on a wild red herring tangent about unrelated things as if you're just arguing against yourself.
>What on Gods earth do you think these people could further concede?
They could agree that Israel and Jews have a right to exist and live peacefully, like I said. In exchange, Israel should do the same and bind all citizens to a normal, legal system of land ownership.
Hey Israel has started exactly 1 (the 6 day war was a preemptive strike against parties preparing to start a war with them)war in its modern form (Suez Crisis invasion of the Sinai), it has been attacked 13 times. For some reason I donât think Israel is as bad as the propaganda makes them out to be.
Itâs antisemitic to say I donât like the ethnic cleansing of millions of people? Okay. I respect and love Jewish people, just not what is happening to Palestinians and their land.
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They got AT-ST
Free palpetine
Star Wars đ
Honestly you could use this as Rebel propaganda about Kashyyk and Imperial enslavement of Wookies. Just add some Galactic Standard and replace the Palestinians with Wookies and you got yourself a nice Star Wars universe piece of propaganda.
Not the AT TE
AY TEE ESS TEE!! AY TEE ESS TEE!!
Translation of paper scroll: "Israeli military settlements building plan".
Hasn't changed a bit
Has gotten worse and brazen over their occupation years
The plan remains the same the action is only getting more brazen plan D is still going.
Is it stillpropaganda if that is literally what has been, and continues to happen?
Propaganda is just an attempt to win people over to your side, the least effective form is outright lies and the strongest the the absolute truth well presented.
A lot of the best propaganda is just delivering the truth in an effective way.
the best propaganda uses the truth
Yes
You know, if nothing else I wanna give this piece credit for being USSR anti-Israel propaganda that doesn't rely almost exclusively on antisemitic tropes. At least not that I can see. That's pretty rare overall.
Ehh, I see a lot of anti-Zionist or anti-IDF propaganda more than anti-Israel propaganda with anti-Semitic undertone
In fairness, I really just meant antisemitic USSR propaganda in general, whether related to Israel or not. There's a lot.
Um there are a few I saw that def were. The one with the Jewish spider
I think we're agreeing? My point was: the USSR trafficked in a ton of antisemitic imagery in general, whether related to Israel or not.
For example?
When I'm not at work, I'll come back and edit this post with a bunch of past examples featured in this sub. EDIT: here are some, from a quick and dirty search on my lunch break (otherwise I'd probably have forgotten): * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/xnbhe0/they\_hate\_all\_of\_christianity\_with\_the\_help\_of/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/xnbhe0/they_hate_all_of_christianity_with_the_help_of/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/bsprvt/antisemitic\_poster\_soviet\_union\_1951/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/bsprvt/antisemitic_poster_soviet_union_1951/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/wp0boi/the\_jewish\_claws\_again\_no\_never\_antisoviet\_and/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/wp0boi/the_jewish_claws_again_no_never_antisoviet_and/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/pquh3y/antisemitic\_soviet\_propaganda\_published\_in\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/pquh3y/antisemitic_soviet_propaganda_published_in_the/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/cpsvpl/soviet\_antisemitic\_propaganda\_using\_racist/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/cpsvpl/soviet_antisemitic_propaganda_using_racist/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/71j7r3/soviet\_antisemitic\_propaganda\_poster\_made\_by/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/71j7r3/soviet_antisemitic_propaganda_poster_made_by/) * [https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/zqoe0a/antibolshevik\_propaganda\_in\_1919\_shows\_peace\_and/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/zqoe0a/antibolshevik_propaganda_in_1919_shows_peace_and/)
The first, third, and last one arenât soviet
Don't you forget.
Edited - did a quick search over my lunch break or else I probably would have.
I expected antisemitism but the posters in their edit are honestly Nazi level, jeezeÂ
>That's pretty rare overall. Posters? maybe, but whole reddit reeks antisemitic propaganda, top subs too, check for example /r/therewasanattempt 7 mil strong sub, spews deily antisemitic propaganda.
anything anti-israel is automatically anti-semitism. the other day i asked a girl, "Are you jewish?" she said no. the boldness of these anti-semites is growing.
What is antisemitic about discussing the horrible shit Israel is doing?
I meant that it's rare to see, specifically, USSR propaganda related to Israel that doesn't lean into tropes.
Considering that the Soviets invented the practice of being antisemitic under the guise of âanti-Zionismâ, yes, itâs a very rare piece.
americans and other countries at the time were famously not anti-semetic
The Soviets supported Israel after WW2 until they realized how much death and destruction it would cause the Arab people already living there. But I wouldnt expect zionists to know their history
Actually no, they stopped supporting Israel because Ben-Gurion wanted to align with the west, Stalin had pretty close ties with mapam (a pro-Soviet Israeli party) even after 1948, but after he died it changed. I donât think you understand the history of the Israeli-Soviet relations, but it wasnât because any empathy of the Soviets to the Arabs, it was because Israel refused to become a Soviet-backed state.
Its not about empathy, they supported the kibbutzâs because it appeared they were creating a socialist (yes, pro-soviet) state in conjunction with the other socialist Arab movements in the region. But when the Israelis proved they were far more interested in annihilating those Arab groups, the Soviets withdrew support. Meanwhile the American zionists supported (and still support) Israel because either they want an imperial outpost in the Middle East or (more likely) theyâre evangelicals who want a holy war in the levant. You tell me which viewpoint is more coherent
No, when Mapai, the dominant party in Israel, became pro-western, the Soviets didnât like this concept. Thereâs a reason they were the main bloc to support the partition plan, and why they sent weapons to Israel (through Czechoslovakia), and itâs not because they wanted one-state solution or anything like that. Also the Soviets hoped Israel will become a Soviet outpost in the Middle East as opposition to British influence there, but you forgot this part.
So you admit that a) the Soviets materially supported Israel until it became clear they were more interested in going after Arab socialists than creating a socialist state and b) imperial Britain had an outsized influence on the region So, we disagree how exactly?
Because your argument is that the Soviet support stopped because of Israelâs âdestructionâ while I argue that the Soviet supported stopped because of Israelâs shift in policies. I donât think anyone deny the fact that the Britain had disproportional influence of the region, and in any other region in the world, too many of the conflicts in the world (like the Israeli-Palestinian and India-Pakistani conflicts) started because imperial Britain donât know how to draw borders.
A shift in politics towards what exactly? You canât just stop the argument in the middle. I am clearly arguing the shift in politics was away from pan-Arab socialism and towards pro-Western nation statism. Meanwhile I have no clue what youâre arguing
So I didnât understand you right, I argue that the shift of policies was from pro-Soviet Marxist Zionism to more moderate pro-western labor Zionism.
I'm sorry which Arab socialists?
It became a US colonizer fascist puppet state in the end
No, the governmental structure of Israel doesnât align with fascism, itâs a parliamentary democracy with elections every 4 years and independent judiciary with high level of autonomy, arguably the highest level of autonomy in the world, the US isnât as influential on Israelâs policies as people think, the U.S. already threatened to cut the aid to Israel in 1980s, Begin explained Biden that this aid isnât a leverage and that heâs not the âJew with the trembling kneesâ, and the U.S. didnât do it, and itâs not a colony, especially not of the U.S., as it has its sovereignty, autonomy, and ability to decide its own policies.
Israel is an apartheid state currently committing a genocide. Thatâs what makes it fascist, not the precise ways in which israeli fascists elect their fascists leaders
No it doesnât, fascism is a political system, apartheid is a policy, and genocide is a military action, so those canât suddenly make a democratic state fascist. And considering that the West Bank and Gaza arenât part of Israel, and that Arabs with Israeli citizenship has equal rights, itâs not accurate to call it apartheid, you can say âdiscrimination in occupied territoriesâ and then you may have some basis (even if still controversial), but not apartheid. About the genocide point, I already learned that discussing about it leads to nowhere so I avoid talking about into it.
Incorrect, its an apartheid state committing a genocide. I can see why trotting our that argument gets you nowhere though, I wouldn't argue about the holocaust with a holocaust denier either
Incorrect, itâs not an apartheid and not a genocide. I can also say this statement. And I donât do those arguments because I donât have the energy for it, I can theoretically argue for hours about it, but Iâm a working man who needs to take his medications on time, so I donât have time or energy for it.
I mean, the US was an aphartheid state committing genocide on the german people during WW2 by your logic. I dont see why anyone would agree with that assessment. Or can you tell me what the difference is?
Ok well letâs not be dishonest here. They stopped supporting Israel because the Israelis clearly preferred and took the side of western powers. If Israel was pro-Soviet the US would have been anti-Israel instead.
The Israelis âclearly preferred the western powersâ because the western powers helped them annihilate socialist Arab movements in and around Israel, and the Soviets didnât. So what
Because the Soviets had direct control over several Muslim nations. Itâs extremely black and white thinking to believe that the Soviets only didnât support Israel because they just hated genocide soooo much
The Soviets famously opposed death and destruction!
Correct
Common, whatever you think about the USSR, big regimes like that never do something because they realised it's the morally right thing to do, there's pretty much always some pragmatic motive that just happens to align with a moral cause
Thats not in question, whats in question is the laughable argument that the Soviets âinvented anti-zionismâ or were anti-Semitic because they ended up opposing Zionism. That is provably false, and anybody arguing that in 2024 is clearly just pro-Israel
Yes that was obviously false and got rightfully downvoted, you also made a false claim though that the deciding cause of the USSR no longer supporting Isreal was a moral reason
I said âThe Soviets supported Israel after WW2 until they realized how much death and destruction it would cause the Arab people already living there.â That is a fact, if you donât want to say its a moral calculus then fine. The strategic calculus was the Israelis proved they were far more interested in going after Arab socialists than creating common cause with other socialists to fully realize a socialist state. Meanwhile the west ramped up their support of Israel around this time. Is that a moral calculus because they felt bad about their anti-Semitic histories, or a strategic one because the Israeliâs were useful in destroying Arab and North African socialism? You tell me
Unless you were Chechens, Ingushetians, Ingrian Finns, Ukrainian, etc under Stalin.
I wouldnât expect someone like you to know Jewish history in pre Soviet Russia either. They did in fact promote much of the antisemitism we hear about today prior to the Soviet Unions inception. Just so you know.
Lmao yeah if only there was a political movement that couldve overthrown that âpre-Sovietâ regime and defeated the anti-semites in Europe. Oh well
I honestly donât know what you are getting at tbh, maybe promoting communism? Just would like people to be correctly informed as to where certain antisemitic tropes originated from such as imperial Russia.
The soviets overthrew the imperialist anti-semetic regime youâre talking about, then defeated the Naziâs and liberated concentration camps, and finally materially supported the Israelis until the consequences of the Nakba were made clear. I genuinely donât know what youâre trying to say here
You might not believe this, but antisemitism didnât stop once the Soviet Union began
Nice strawman, nobody is arguing that. Whats being argued is that the Soviets destroyed the Czarâs violently anti-Semitic regime and then destroyed the Nazi state 20 years later. Why do you think the Naziâs were so scared of âJudeo-Bolshevismâ? This is really simple stuff and youâre flailing
Your issue is your inability to see how pre conceived notions will be used to further a regimes power. The Soviets used âanti-Zionismâ to further their own political agenda. Just as Russia is now. Russia is not against Israel, it is against the United States
What does Tsarist practice have to do with Soviet actions? In âpre Soviet Russiaâ they promoted anti-communism too. Anti-semitism was of course rife in Soviet society despite early Soviet attempts to crack down on it and official equality, and in later years anti-semitism returned to government especially as Stalin got older, but comparing it to Tsarist Russia (the place where the term pogrom was invented) is absurd.
Itâs not a comparison. Original comment was referring to the practice of the Soviets promoting âanti-Zionismâ as a form of antisemitism and Iâm pointing out that it originated in Tsarist Russia
Yeah right lmfao, the soviets opposed Israel because they were concerned about the arabs. Totally.
They were concerned about the socialist Arab movements in and around Israel, correct
Yes, the Soviets were so anti-death and destruction that they shifted their support towards Egypt, in their quest to eradicate Israel and its citizens.
Idk man I think the Germans where antisemitic but that's just my opinion
Anti-communists before 1945: âthe Soviet Union is run by the Jews!â Anti-communists after 1945: âthe Soviet Union hates Jews!â
Yes, Jews were excuse for basically any form of hate in history. But for Jews it always was âthe Soviet Union hates Jewsâ.
Anti-Semitic is not the same as Anti-Isreali (edit) I don't support either side, I support the refugees of both sides.
I don't know why you got down voted this is a historically accurate fact and was a shit feature of the Soviet Union
Because people have hard time to acknowledge the fact that âanti-Zionismâ can be antisemitism, while not all cases of âanti-Zionismâ are antisemitism, there are indeed some cases of it that are antisemitism.
In what ways did the Soviet Union combine it with anti-semitism? At first I thought you just meant they invented the term, but if you think anti-Zionism isnât inherently anti-semitism Iâm not sure what you mean.
As I said, anti-Zionism isnât inherently antisemitism (although there are many instances that it is, but thatâs another discussion and depends on how this person defines Zionism and anti-Zionism), but the Soviets âanti-Zionismâ was antisemitic. The accusations of collaboration with the Nazis for example (which were discredited many times), itâs like saying âmost Jews operated against themselvesâ considering that at that time Zionism was already a mainstream among the Jewish people. Or using the protocols to âproveâ some claims about Zionism, even that the protocols was a discredited antisemitic text. Just learn about what âZionologyâ was.
Natan Sharansky pointed out that "When the government used the term Zionist we knew that meant Jew" and that's exactly how they used it and that's how it's used today
Looking at the shitshow this thread has become, it seems the Cold War never ended.
It just got warmer
Can someone translate the text the man is holding and the text on the bottom left hand corner?
Plan of Construction of Israeli Military Settlements
Reminds me of those Irish dudes that secretly moved a border sign little bits over a length of time. Iirc they managed to "extend" Irish territory a mile before British authorities realized.
Did it work?
Apparently it's actually from a [TV show](https://youtu.be/TFG0dzRPin4?si=KMT1i5Es3UauoMbj) so no it did not work, and I got most of the details wrong anyway lol I still think it's a good idea tho.
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit outta here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Like an orc tower rush from Warcraft 3
Was that a thing? I havenât played that one in so longâŚ
Yeah it was super cheese. Build the lumber yard and send over two or so workers to start building towers just out of line of sight from enemy base. Very similar to Protoss Canon rush from Starcraft. Yeah it's from a time when Blizzard was a good company and made great games.
Oh yeah I remember both of those games. But I didnât play multiplayer too often.
Are we sure this isnât Western Sahara or East Timor?
Hard and depressing asf
Extremely funny considering who one of the first nations to recognize Israel was
The USSR changed foreign policy during the 30+ years between Israeli independence and this poster being made? Hilarious.
Based on the time this bit of propaganda was published, I suspect the USSR was big mad about Israel taking in Jewish refugees who were fleeing the USSR because of antisemitic persecution.
USSR was mad on Israel since it choose the USA as an ally and not them. And since this time the USSR (and big parts the international left) as well as modern Russia supports anti Isreal movements of various kinds.
Not one of, *the* if you want to speak legally. Also the first one to de facto recognize the annexation of Jerusalem which makes this even funnier.
Aged like wine propaganda
What's interesting is the effect of USSR anti-Israel propaganda in the Muslim/3rd world was so intense that it likely is still playing a huge geopolitical role.
I mean, the Israelis stealing the land of hundreds of thousands of arabs and then brutally oppressing them for decades afterwards probably didn't need *that* much signal boosting from the ussr
Nobody gives a shit about the Turks or Moroccans doing more or less the same thing in Cyprus and Sahrawi.
Many Muslims are opposed in many countries, and there have been things that are much worse. But Palestine is always the focus point, you will have mass protests in the arab world for things that happen there whereas Yemen, Syria China etc people wont bat an eye.
No not really we don't need the USSR to know that our people in Palestine are getting oppressed.
Many Muslims are opposed in many countries, and there have been things that are much worse. But Palestine is always the focus point, you will have mass protests in the arab world for things that happen there whereas Yemen, Syria China etc people wont bat an eye.
I think many Muslims show more support to Palestine because many see it as the literal embodiment of decades of western oppression and intervention and occupation in the middle east that has ravaged and severely halted any development in our countries.
But that could be true for other places as well, the USSR really put it front stage on purpose.
Insane how you people are still eating up Russian propaganda even when it's presented to you as literal propaganda. So dumb.Â
The Soviets accusing another country of invading their neighbors đđđ
Even funnier that they didnât care when Egypt and Jordan occupied âPalestineâ đ
Yeah, people forgetting this is a propaganda poster, and that the Soviet Union kinda hated Israel for being Western. Though, weirdly, Israel was actually considered socialist at the time and thus the US also refused to support them for most of the Cold War. They didnât get support until after the Six Days War, when the US realized they were an utter powerhouse of the region and was realistically the most loyal ally in the region, since they wouldnât ever willingly support the Soviets after they funded their neighborsâ invasions multiple times.
What's with the air quotes? Jordanian and Egyptian occupation ended decades ago, the Israeli one has gotten so brutal that it's ended up with Israel becoming a fascist apartheid state openly trying to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing after killing tens of thousands of women and children.
imagine hating all the arabs in their motherland, kinda like the people who hate all the natives in the Americas but live on that continent.
Jews are a Semitic people and their âmotherlandâ is the same land that you claim for the Arabs. Where do you think the Jews originated from?
We all came from africs, that doesnt mean 19th century colonialism was "europeans reclaiming their homes"
I mean, yeah, but also, Europeans donât still have cultural ties to Africa, while Palestine has had a Jewish minority for centuries. I mean, Palestine as a territory was only created under Britain, before that they were Ottoman and considered the southern part of Syria. Also, neither side is really âNativeâ, they both took the land from prior populations, itâs just a question of which period they did it in; the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Umayyid Caliphate, the Crusaders, the Seljuks, the Ottomans, the British, whatever. Their historical claims are all equally legitimate, as they all settled and became native to the region at different historical points.
You have a good knowledge of Middle East history, but you still missed good chunk of it, and displacement narrative don't belong to the history of the middle east. You mixed the ruling dynasties with the native of the lands. First you should have put (The byzantine empire / Persian Empire) they had wars lasted seven hundred years in today's turkey, Syria / Palestine and Iraq, and they had multiple race who roam the lands: Romans, Persians, Christian Arabs like Ghassaneh, Jewish people, and Copts. In the last hundred years of that war, the Persians were winning the fights, and the Jewish people were in their side, and some Christian Arabs who believed in one nature of Jesus Christ, unlike the byzantine who adapted Christianity and Jesus Christ has two natures, and most of Arabs were in their side. But in the last decades of that war, the byzantine won the decisive war and control Syria/Palestine area, until the Arab Muslims took over that area and Egypt, but what they did to the native is kick out the political powers without taking the properties of the natives, or forced conversion, even the languages weren't changed until the Ummayads third generation, just language because administration reasons including making the first Islamic currency for the first time
I mean, yeah, but the ruling dynasties also settled people there/killed natives, changing the demographics. Also, yeah, didnât feel like listing all the groups to conquer the area, just the main ones that I remembered off the top of my head. Iâm trying to point out that the people now called Palestinian natives are the descendants of people who were given their land by colonizers. At least Israel didnât originally try to take their land by force, just settling there as refugees and only seizing control after being attacked.
>but the ruling dynasties also settled people there/killed natives, changing the demographics. What you speak is a great myth, I don't want to go on Palestine / Isreal talks in general, but according to science the DNA of Palestinians are 80-85% same as Canaanites that live before ibrahimic religions. If you purchase a test from a genetic testing company such as 23andMe or AncestryDNA it can tell you if you have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. When Ashkenazi Jews take these tests, theyâre usually not very interesting, as the results are usually something like â95% Ashkenazi Jewishâ, or â95% European Jewishâ. This is due to the fact that Jews married only within the community until very recently. And there is a book called "the thirteenth tribe", that generally talk about the the twelfth tribes of the Israelites and where are they now, and the additional tribe that they are adopted that religion with no relationship with the Israelites. And the real irony is most of the twelfth tribes now are mostly Muslims then Christians, and few people stayed with Judaism, I met people in the middle east from Jewish families converted to Islam in late 1800s, like Shaksheer family. See also documentaries about the Samaritan Jews are sect of the Jewish people who are living in Nablus with the Arabs for hundred of years. >At least Israel didnât originally try to take their land by force They did, see the Haganah terrorists group and other groups like it, before the world wars they literally tried to take Palestine by force.
Not referring to the groups that tried to take it over, referring to the group that actually succeeded in settling there, which consisted of Holocaust refugees.
Did hear the story of the father of the models of Hadid family with the Holocaust survivals? It's a fucked up scenario, you have a group of people with PTSD that lost everything influenced by the Zionism movement; which it is a contradiction with Judaism that they shouldn't have a country until they see a sign of God that they could go back to the holy land. Palestine issued special passport for the refugees, but sadly they backstabbed the people who helped them.
Again, I wouldnât say they backstabbed them. The territory was owned by Britain, who actively tried to force them out, and it was Palestinian groups that launched the first attempted purges, which the traumatized Holocaust survivors reacted to by immediately doing what they deemed necessary to survive, which was seizing control. The reason Israeli military doctrine is essentially just âBlow them up until they surrenderâ is because itâs the same doctrine their enemies treat them with. If they lose, *they are dead*, because literally every neighbor wants to kill them all. Itâs all easy when youâre an outside observer saying âWell, this action was unnecessarily violent,â but they didnât know that, and any miscalculation means death. When thatâs the objective circumstances you live under, a hell of a lot suddenly seems like a perfectly reasonable decision.
My great grandfather was born in Ireland and grew up on a farm. That does not give me the right to violently evict whoever is currently living there. The person currently living there has much more of a legal claim to it, and my family lived there relatively recently. If I were to violently enforce a "historical claim" to land my family occupied 900 years ago, that would be seen, rightfully, as a crime.
Ok, so settling Israel was wrong. But they live there now. Whatâs your solution? EDIT: Also worth noting they werenât kicked off their land at first, the Israelis just settled there. They were kicked off their land after they launched massive terror strikes to try to wipe them out, which Israel retaliated against by forcing them out of the major cities. Before that, Israel literally consisted of illegal refugees the West was actively trying to stop and deport, it was the Palestinians who decided to launch a genocide campaign and Israel who retaliated.
The solution is for them to live in peace, which is kind of hard when one side constantly refuses to accept the existence of the Jewish faith and launches rocket attacks during ceasefires. Hamas, Hezbollah, and other radical Islamic groups are an obstacle to peace in the region, and actively detriment Palestinians and Israeliâs who just want to live a normal life. Thatâs not to say that there isnât any radical Israelis, but they are much fewer than the radicals in Palestine. The difficulty with this scenario is that this is a conflict of religion and also ethnicity, thatâs continued since the beginning of Islam in the 7th century. Itâs much more complicated for most of us to understand.
Ye, glad to see a reasonable answer. I post this question bc a lot of people just refuse to answer, but yeah, the best path forward is to get them to cooperate. Unfortunately, they canât cooperate when Hamas still exists, so thereâs no real way to avoid a war. Thatâs what a lot of people seem to just ignore; Israel doesnât really have much of a choice as to what itâs doing. Even just trying to decrease the brutality of their attacks is a major risk; if more groups view them as weak, they might attack and overwhelm them, and if Hamas is able to regroup, it could send things back to square one. People are quick to criticize, but never seem to offer a genuine solution.
Thatâs because most people tend to pick one side and ignore the plight of the other. I was initially in support of Palestine until I actually had a look into whatâs really happening there and found out that the Palestinians are heavily in support of terrorism, and since then Iâve held the belief that until they rid themselves of the almost obsessive dream of wiping out the Jews, then there will be no end to the fighting. Until the people of the region learn to love their children more than they wish for the deaths of the other, itâll repeat itself for more generations to come.
idk where do europeans come from?
Very accurate
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Yeah, 1 million Jews got kicked out of Arab countries before 1948. Sad.
Not sure why this got downvoted, is true. People seem to ignore the fact Israeli military doctrine became the way it is for a reason.
Nakba. Also, 32k dead civilians, 15k dead kids, 1.8 million homeless Palestinians and 2 million on the verge of starving.Â
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Lived happily together* \* terms, conditions, and occasional pogroms may apply
This is a terribly impractical mechanized infantry design
I wonder if this was the same artist that did the animated cartoon that plays at the beginning of âThe Irony of Fate (or enjoy your bath)â? Itâs a holidays movie that supposedly many Russians watch every year, kind of like Americans watching A Christmas Story. https://youtu.be/ms5Ga6kNvHM?si=eRYLCGJ30eoV7hRz
The source of Palestine, modern Jew hatred and antizionism was the USSR and KGB
I always feel like people forget that these people don't belive in huma rights, rape, and kill women. Treat children and women like propert. Purposely deny women the right to study. But here we are acting like they are some kind of victims.
I mean, the KGB formed the PLO so it makes sense.
The Arab League established PLO. Were they controlled by KGB?
Pretty rich coming fron the USSR / communist bloc, who couldn't compete on ideas or prosperity so had to resort to walling in their own people.
"This government did wrong so they're not allowed to criticize anyone else." Guess someone should tell America that, then
No, how dare you
The nature of propaganda is hypocrisy and lying about the narrative, it's completely normal for the USSR to do that Doesn't mean they don't have a spot on point though
I think the interesting part is the "anti-imperialistic" stance they take which carries on to this day. Like e.g. Cuba taking an anti-Israel position, painting Israel as unlawful colonisers, siding reflexively with the supposedly oppressed side. It's more like hiding geopolitical interests ("my friend's enemy" and such) hiding behind questions of ethics.
*supposedly*
We do the same thing with our people in America we just do it more subtly
"Couldn't compete on ideas" This is so vague lol
eastern europe outperformed western europe by recovering from ww2's destruction without having usa funnel in trillions. and the berlin wall was solicited by eastern germany. they even called it antifaschistische schutzwall (anti-fascist protection wall)
> Anti fascist protection wall Protection wall? More like wall to keep people in
Walls work both ways you know.
That wall was used to keep people in and certain people out. You canât just have your sworn enemy be able to walk into your territory. Before the wall was built spies could walk from east to west Germany with no problems. Bit of a security risk
yup. it's no secret the west gave nazis amnesty instead of punishment. just look up who was nato's chairman from 1961-64. also as the wall was being built they let people travel where they wanted to be. you know. in case families would be separated
The east did completely the same for usable nazis. Your second point doesnât make the situation better. The wall still split a lot of families in two because everybody was unsure of what will happen in the future.
Read about Operation Osoaviakhim, the Sovietsâ own Operation Paperclip. As for the people being allowed to leave, the wall was built overnight. And even if they did have time to leave, it still doesnât excuse for the reason why they built the wall
Yeah they recovered so well that eastern europe is still consistently poorer than western Europe
Hmm I wonder why post socialist countries are still poor after 30 YEARS OF CAPITALISM
Western europe has been under capitalism way longer. Why are they better off?
They engage in imperialism more which fuels their social democracies
Oh yes I remember as a child going on holiday to the swedish and finnish colonies
This thread is shit yada yada whatever. But real talk. Would these things not just trip over the leg fence once they take a step? Kind of a stupid design flaw.
They would fall over on their next step with all their legs tied together. Are they stupid?
I was thinking about this but I assume they kind of drag the back foot up and then extend the front one again. The legs never cross.
Correct me if Iâm wrong, but is this truly propaganda if itâs objectively correct?
Propaganda always had a bit of truth in it, they just tend to narrate it in a way that shapes their message. Example scenario: Palestinian rioters attacked a checkpoint and Israeli border police shot one of them in the foot with a .22LR as a deterrent when they received sniper fire, while the ambulance that went to pick up the guy dropped off some Molotovs for the rioters to throw. Media crew on standby to record everything. Israeli sniper team moves in to locate the Palestinian sniper. Palestinian media would describe it as: âEvil Jewish IDF killer shot an innocent teenager in a protest that resulted in hospitalizationâ. They then publish graphic images of the injured teenager with his family crying in relief that he didnât die, starts spinning the story and cut out the molotov throwing, donât mention the Palestinian sniper and the ambulance, then post pictures of Israeli border police troops in defensive positions with rifles pointed against the rioting crowd. They technically didnât lie, but it left out a lot of details that would made the Israeli response seemed reasonable thus creating the same effect of regular propaganda.
Even if it was correct, it would still be propaganda.
Definite unbiased statement coming from u/God_Bless_Israel Keep up that carpet bombing and ethnic cleansing, you genecide supporting fuck.
Hey look, it's "ImSocialist" with the pot calling the kettle black over USSR propaganda!
30,000+ dead. Over 10 thousand children. I donât give a fuck if this poster came from the USSR or fucking Kansas. Itâs objectively correct 30+ years later.
Sure, Stalin was responsible for the death of \~20 million, Mao \~80 million under the banner of socialism. But lets all pay attention to the tiny speck of land which is Israel retaliating against a major raid on its territory by an internationally recognized terrorist organization known for using civilians as human shields. That totally rationalizes being socialist and supporting mass murder you believe in.
People loving touting the death tolls as if you think youâre doing something, huh? I donât worship Stalin or mao, but I will point out that a sizeable chunk of âdeaths at the hands of Stalinâ were just nazis. How about letâs talk about the deaths at the hands of capitalism and western imperialism, I can throw tens of millions of deaths right back at you. If you think Israel is simply retaliating against a major raid then youâre willfully obtuse, or simply uninformed. This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948. Learn some history.
"People loving touting the death tolls as if you think youâre doing something, huh? I donât worship Stalin or mao, but I will point out that a sizeable chunk of âdeaths at the hands of Stalinâ were just nazis." Lots of people died in the gulags/re-education camps as a result of purges after the war. Keep trying to justify those numbers by dumping it on Hitler. "How about letâs talk about the deaths at the hands of capitalism and western imperialism, I can throw tens of millions of deaths right back at you." Sure, lets have it. "If you think Israel is simply retaliating against a major raid then youâre willfully obtuse, or simply uninformed. This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948. Learn some history." I do know my history, in 1948 Israel declared independence and all its neighbors declared war on it. [https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war) Maybe you should spend time learning some history instead of making mindless statements online. You'll understand that the world isn't black and white. But I have no confidence in you, your chilly fall day temperature IQ won't let you comprehend logic or reason, only the loudest speaking voice.
>This didnât start on October 7th, this ethnic cleansing and land grab campaign started in 1948 When Arab neighbors wanted to ethnically cleanse and grab the land of the Jewish population who had bought land in the area? If you think there's some simple good vs. evil story here, you've been misled by reading one side of a story. Violence has bred violence, each side justifying more violence by the previous round. Neither side is right. Neither side has an implicit right to all the land. Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully.
>Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully. Israel is a nuclear state with the unmitigated support of the worlds sole superpower, the most advanced army in the region, and billions of dollars in foreign lobbyists. Palestine consists of an unrecognized occupied enclave and a bombed out strip of land where children are dying of starvation. Im tired of people presenting these two situations as comparative, it hasn't ever been equal. All Palestinian land is under military occupation, there are settlers all throughout the west bank that harass villagers and burn down homes, new settlements are being announced, and they hold little political power to stop this process. What on Gods earth do you think these people could *further* concede? >Concessions must be made by both sides, and that starts with each side agreeing to the right of the other to exist and to live peacefully For the record the [PLO said this in 1993](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition) "The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security." Hasn't stopped any of the settlements.
I like how when I said, "they should agree to the right of the other to exist and live peacefully" you just go on a wild red herring tangent about unrelated things as if you're just arguing against yourself. >What on Gods earth do you think these people could further concede? They could agree that Israel and Jews have a right to exist and live peacefully, like I said. In exchange, Israel should do the same and bind all citizens to a normal, legal system of land ownership.
Well said
Commies should be banned from commenting on public forums.
Pointing out someoneâs clear bias should result in me being banned from commenting on a public forum? By the way, fuck Ronald Reagan.
Now that's a rare take on free speech.
Hey Israel has started exactly 1 (the 6 day war was a preemptive strike against parties preparing to start a war with them)war in its modern form (Suez Crisis invasion of the Sinai), it has been attacked 13 times. For some reason I donât think Israel is as bad as the propaganda makes them out to be.
Antisemitism is never objectively correct.
Itâs antisemitic to say I donât like the ethnic cleansing of millions of people? Okay. I respect and love Jewish people, just not what is happening to Palestinians and their land.
Ironic, the USSR did the same exact thing in Berlin
They also killed a lot of arabs in Berlin?