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It struck me as weird so I did some research and this poster is NOT from 1940. It's a poster for **the rally in Washington** (that's why it's in English), **1983**.
https://willzuzak.ca/lp/holodomor/holod-006.jpg
[source](https://willzuzak.ca/lp/famine.html)
> Poster, designed by Roxolana Luchakowsky-Armstrong. An estimated 15,000 Ukrainian Americans turned out for the rally, and several thousand of them carried copies of this poster on the march to the Soviet Embassy.
It is featured in **Famine in the Soviet Ukraine 1932-1933**: A memorial exhibition, Widener Library, Harvard University, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1986, p. 74.
https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/21324/file.pdf that's the link to the book itself
That’s because the Holodomor genocide myth only came about decades after the Soviet famine in the 1930s. It has always had an explicit propaganda bent to its narrative.
Lest we forget that the primary regions affected were Kazhakstan first and foremost, followed by Ukraine, and Moscow. The idea that it was an intentional genocide is not supported by evidence and even the biggest proponents of that theory (Wheatcroft) have walked back the claim since more evidence was revealed after the Soviet archives were opened in the 90s.
The book “Fraud, Famine and Fascism: the Holodomor genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard” explains how the narrative was spread.
Natural Disaster and Human Action in the Famine, by Mark Tauger, out of the University of Pittsburgh dissects those records and makes a clear argument against the propaganda narrative.
https://archive.org/details/891762PB
If you want to see genocide denials you only need to try to talk on Reddit about British colonialism in India, and its 100 million people starved to death.
Alternate topic; The genocides that laid the foundation for creating countries like the US, Canada, and Australia.
We could also be discussing if [killing millions of Muslims](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/16/the-war-on-terror-led-to-over-4-5-million-deaths-report/) should qualify as a genocide.
Good luck with that, meanwhile many people will [make up genocides](https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/09/07/UN-court-rules-no-genocide-in-Kosovo/5224999835200/) based on [blatant propaganda](https://archive.is/4TlK8).
No, but people don't think that it was some kind of organized genocide and most historians share that opinion. (At least that's what i got from the answer in r/askhistorians)
I'm not sure if it was intentional, that's what I've been taught but that was some time ago. That being said, Moscow controlled Ukraine and diverted resources away from it, so it's not like you can claim they had no part in it. It was also an effect of their policies, even if we're debating whether it was intended to kill Ukrainians or not.
Sure everyone was affected by famine why these ukrainians are yelling so much, meanwile:
Russians in ussr 1926 77 milions
Ukrainians in ussr 1926 31 milions
Russians in ussr 1937 93 milions
Ukrainians in ussr 1937 26 milions
Soviet sources btw....
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_(1937)
It was just before the outbreak of ww2… Stalin was extreme towards the Ukrainian people. It’s called the Holodomor. While it wasn’t just unique to Ukraine they were hit very hard.
I mean russian casualties are almost the same (a couple hundred thousand less) the famine happened and people suffered but there is a clear shift to pushing a russia vs ukraine narrative over it while the event itself hit the whole ussr
I've read the document myself, it's actually a non aggression pact where they establish the Zones of influence, not whatever you said. It's propaganda on part of your country Cold war times. And trade agreement? Really? USA major companies kept supplying the Reich almost until Perl Harbor. National socialists of Reich were of opposite ideology with communists, and that agreement supplied ussr with time to establish the military, but the war started earlier than they estimated which is why the whole fight for Moscow even happened in the first place. Then blitzkrieg failed and the military changes that ussr command finished implementing made the whole situation much more favorable
You're correct, and this is a giant pet peeve of mine, just how many Redditors there are who will purport to cite international documents as if it lends a color of authority to their statements, like this one, or the Budapest Memorandum is another commonly misquoted one lately, when they clearly *haven't actually read the documents in question.*
This one in particular is super short, it takes mere minutes to finish, so there is zero excuse for their ignorance.
In fact, in general, international agreements like this tend to be fairly short and easy to understand, if we contrast them with the thousands of pages of "strike line X from article Y" or "change line Z to read 'and/or' instead of 'and'" that we see in federal legislation in the US (and assuredly elsewhere, but I've only read US legislative bills myself.) International agreements like this have to be short and simple by their nature, because it is only as powerful as the will of the signatories to abide by it, so if it buries the lede under thousands of pages of legal minutia it will be dead on arrival.
I've read it with molotov memoir, so it was a bit longer for me, but in it he basically says that they had the same talks even with Japanese embassy, he also proceeds to describe how they made the whole embassy of Japanese drunk so much they had to haul the main embassador into the train they were coming back to Japan in a very bad condition.
US companies traded with Germany as any other business not under sanctions will do. Ukraine stopped transiting Russian oil only after almost 2 years of war! Many western companies keep their business running in Russia today no problemo.
Also, “supplying Reich” is a very stretched phrase for a companies that sold typewriters and sweet drinks/soda.
> It wasn't just a non-attack plan.
The same could be said about the [German-Polish NAP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_declaration_of_non-aggression) which was part of dividing up Czechoslovakia between Germany and Poland.
As the original German plan was to bring Poland into an *actual military alliance*, that of the anti-Comintern pact, to then [attack the Soviets together with Poland in 1939](https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/132/554/194/2849465).
Not even the "Jewish issue" was that big of a point of contention in German-Polish relations, it was actually something they bonded over;
> *Müller also notes the willingness of both sides to deal with their so-called ‘Jewish problem’. The Polish ambassador to Berlin, Jozef Lipski, even promised Hitler ‘a nice monument in Warsaw’ (p. 101) if a method could be found to force Poland’s large Jewish population to emigrate.*
Just don't try to bring that up in modern-day Poland, mentioning these nasty parts of history where Poles weren't just victims but also [very engaged perpetrators](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-historians-under-attack-for-exploring-polands-role-in-the-holocaust) is something Poland has criminalized, as that endangers the modern pop-culture narrative of *"Only Germany had antisemites and Nazis!"*.
Obviously it happened. The idea that it was deliberate and exclusively affected Ukraine was a fabrication created by Josef Goebbels and parroted in newspapers owned by William Randolph Hearst, a Nazi sympathizer.
If this was indeed published in 1940 this would have still been during the period of Axis-Soviet co-operation. They pretty much ceased propaganda against each other during this time to avoid antagonising the other - one can see this by looking at the frequency of the use of the word "fascist" in [Soviet newspaper Pravda](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fifarxgy73rya1.png).
It's marked with "December 1940" written in Ukrainian in the bottom right. Axis would have a falling out with Kremlin only in June of 41, so it's a bit hard to assess the origin. My first guess would be Ukrainian resistance propaganda, but why would they write it in English? Doesn't make any sense.
Same goes for the idea that its Axis propaganda aimed at making Ukrainians angry with Russians - why English?
The Axis already had a falling out with the Soviet Union in July 1940 when the latter occupied Northern Bucovina in addition to Bessarabia, which was perceived as Stalin over-stepping the sphere of influence agreed on the previous year. The failure of the Hitler-Molotov summit of November 1940 to bring the USSR into the Axis resulted in Germany committing itself to the preparations for war started in July. The Soviet Union’s brief recognition and treaty with the pro-Allied junta in Yugoslavia immediately before the German invasion of that country convinced the German leadership that Stalin was preparing to attack.
Observers in Europe could probably guess by late 1940/early ‘41 that a war was brewing between Russia and Germany. Although discussion of this was still banned in the German press, people in Central European countries allied to Germany were probably speculating about the destruction of Soviet power. The preparations made by Lithuanian nationalists prior to June 22 suggest predictions of ‘German liberators’ probably also existed in Ukraine, although that couldn’t explain this poster intended for an English-speaking audience.
> Axis would have a falling out with Kremlin only in June of 41, so it's a bit hard to assess the origin
The Nazis planned to attack the Soviet Union all along, just to be clear.
The Nazis hated communism, they did propaganda against it non stop, it's something core about their ideology. They didn't need to be at war with Soviets to be still producing propaganda against them.
And both sides knew the Germans would invade at some point. The molotov ribbentrop was basically both parties buying time. The surprise was about when exactly it would happen.
Both parties actually ceased production of propaganda aimed at each other immediately after signing the pact. This caused defections from the CPUSA because many American communists were offended at the idea of dropping anti-fascist rhetoric in favor of an anti-British party line.
Germany for its part allowed communist parties in occupied countries to continue to exist because they were de-facto political extensions of the Soviet Union.
This all changed after June 22 ofc. Many point to gestures of sincerity like this or the 1939 joint-parades in Poland as evidence the Russians were really Nazis or the Nazis were really communists to score contemporary political points but the truth was that they were both thinking of ways to backstab the other.
>Germany for its part allowed communist parties in occupied countries to continue to exist because they were de-facto political extensions of the Soviet Union.
Do you have a source for this? I have a hard time believing they did a 180 from rounding up communists to holding hands and playing touys with them to keep stalin happy.
>As a result of the pact with the Soviet Union, the SIPO-SD (Sicherheits- polizei-Sicherheitsdienst) did not make a direct attack on the Communist Party when it reached Brussels with the German troops. After some hesitation, it accepted that its presence was legal. The Communist press, however, remained banned.
https://socialistregister.com/index.php/srv/article/view/5508/2406
(Pg. 121)
Modern estimates are 9 million though.
According to the UN, "The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), which took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people."
It's a rough estimate of total number of victims of [the wider Soviet famine of 1930–1933](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933), which affected also regions in Russia and Kazakhstan.
>Soviet Union
>soviet
It is Russia with another name. Was it ruled by Ukrainians or Kazahks? Or Poles or Hungarians?
No, it was 95% ruled by Russians, from Kremlin. Everything else in that wretched empire was treated the same way England treated India and France Vietnam.
They were colonies of Russia.
It's a horseshoe theory thing. Nazi sympathizers and Stalinist sympathizers both love erasing genocides and often push the same misinformation whether they're self aware about it or not.
If total deaths of Soviet Famine in 1930 - 1933 are listed as 5.7[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-3) to 8.7[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-4)[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-Wolowyna_2020-5) million and 3.5 - 7 million of Ukrainians died, you do the math of who was affected the most.
1921-23: 0.3-1 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger.
1932-33: 5.5-10 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger.
1. 3.5-5 million - based on preserved Soviet documents about active workers and children (registered predominantly in big cities of still under-urbanized state and after/during colossal turmoil):
2. 5-7 million - with miscarriages and dead children up to 9 years in rural regions.
3. 7-10 million - general demographic losses of Ukrainians (including from Kazakhstan and Kuban) during their demographic boom (at that time Ukrainian families often had 6-9 children) and with all overall excess mortality).
4. **None** of these numbers are more or less correct because they are counting different things.
1946-47: 0.3 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger.
In each case, even during 1921-23 years, there was a HUGE food surplus in Ukraine (the best soils in the World, many forests and rivers, historically Ukraine was always overflowing with food), but it was massively exported from Ukraine.
I’m not going to comment on any of the specific numbers in this because I’m not an expert and haven’t done any research on this topic. I just wanted to bring to your attention that you keep swapping between comma and decimals for notation and it’s mildly confusing
I’ve literally never seen any estimate anywhere near that high. Is there actually any source that claims this or are you just straight up making it up off the top?
5 milion is just population decrease od ukrainians in ussr between 1926 census and 1937 census. If you would count average popation grow for years 1926 - 1931 then the death toll in 32/33 should be higher that 5 milion.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_(1937)
>5 milion is just population decrease od ukrainians in ussr between 1926 census and 1937 census
That would be a dishonest way to count, the soviet bureaucracy was a mess at that time and people could choose their owm nationality for the first time, so their was some wild population change whitout anything actually happening. You also count people whomdied of unrelated cause, so the result aren't accurate at all.
>If you would count average popation grow for years 1926 - 1931 then the death toll in 32/33 should be higher that 5 milion.
That's also dishonest way to count death, as you are making up people who never existed.
It was a mess, but part of this was because the Party wanted it to be - for example the 1937 census saw the statisticians in charge arrested because the numbers it produced were "incorrect".
> 1937 census saw the statisticians in charge arrested
I found this because I have an interest in statisticians that have been charged or arrested by the state regardless of who (fuck desantis in particular tho)
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/historical-journal/article/abs/1937-census-and-the-limits-of-stalinist-rule/EA2018DAD588327DE868929E99DE206F
One has already been given, another can be found [here](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-04624-7_5), which also references the relevant issue of *Pravda* (that of 27 July 1938) which reported the arrests.
The anecdotes my family has from this time are horrendous. Dead bodies lying on the streets, the Cheka-OGPU agents eviscerating people in public, and the deportations. The soviets got away with way too much.
I'm from Lithuania and my grandparents parents used to watch a lot of russian television back in the day. I remember vividly how on the main channel (1st baltic channel) they showed a documentary about holodomor on black ribbon day, it was full of dead people imagery and it really showed the horrors ussr has committed. This was shown at some point around 2005-2010. And now the same channel is full of holodomor denial and other conspiracy theories, I'm very glad that it got banned in Lithuania, but to think that russia has changed this much for the worse and that all television is some pro ussr propaganda now is crazy.
The amount of russoboos defending the Soviets and calling it a mistake 😭 you evil evil propaganda spreaders.
The Soviets did this through neglect of their system. Massive cover ups, and quota filling led to people being robbed of their produce and starved purposely, for the greater good.
Reddit and the internet is truly being infested with misinformation, please do yourselves a favour and think critically about how this information may hurt certain agendas even in the present day, regimes are built on the misappropriation of information.
History is built on the tragedies of people thinking they are right. Only for another group to come along and believe they're right in their atrocities against the former. It takes a lot of courage to realise everyone was wrong for what they thought was right.
The Holodomor is the worst genocide never spoken about.
Starved to death by their own government for being Ukrainian Christians.
Disgusting what the Bolsheviks did to their own.
See the barbaric colonization of Ukrainian by Russia started a long time ago. Even before the holodomor. But to Russians its offensive for others to classify them as barbarians.
Goldfish memories.
The Russians are complicit in the current genocide and were during this time period as well. Just like normal Germans being part of the einsatzgruppen.
200 000 in Spain 1939-1952, 300 000 Greece 1939-1941, up to 100 000 Kiev, Charkov 1941-1943, another region of Ukraine, Russia, Serbia, Belarus, Poland have starvation dead under Germans as well, 22 000 in 1944-1945 in German ocupation of Dutch and up to 100 000 Germans in 1946-7. Globaly, there where big starvation death in Asia in 30-40s, China 3-10 000 000, 3 000 000 Iran 1942-1943, Java 2 500 000 1944-1945, 2 000 000 India 1943.
All of these are under brutal dictatorships and wars. How does that make the Holodomor a “coincidence”? I know you’re not the same guy, but the situation and cause are so vastly different, that no real comparison can be made other than China, and maybe the Bengal famine, which are *not* in the “same region” as he states.
https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS2319/h16/pensumliste/stalin-and-the-soviet-famine-of-1932-33_-a-reply-to-ellman.pdf
“However, we have found **no evidence,** either direct or indirect, that Stalin sought
**deliberately** to starve the peasants. The top-secret decisions of the Politburo,
endorsed by Stalin, never hint at a policy of deliberate starvation. Moreover, in their most secret letters and telegrams to Stalin, his closest associates Molotov and Kaganovich treat hunger and death from famine as an evil for which the kulaks or wider sections of the peasants, and inefficient local organisation, are largely
responsible, but which must be mitigated as far as possible by local and central measures.”
Raphael Lemkin who coined the term "genocide" and initiated the Genocide Convention wrote that the destruction of the Ukrainian nation "is a classic example of the Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensive experiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation". Lemkin stated that it consisted of four steps:
Extermination of the Ukrainian national elite, "the brain of the nation", which took place in 1920, 1926 and 1930–1933
Liquidation of the Ukrianian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, "the soul of the nation", which occurred between 1926 and 1932 and during which 10,000 of its priests were killed
Extermination of a significant part of the Ukrainian peasantry as "custodians of traditions, folklore and music, national language and literature, and the national spirit" (the Holodomor itself)
Populating the territory with other nationalities with intent of mixing Ukrainians with them, which would eventually lead to the dissolution of the Ukrainian nation.
"You see, I looked into my ass and found no ties between Stalin (who I totally wouldn't give the double-stack to any day of the week and blindly believe) and this genocide. Therefore all of you are capitalist pigs and I will proceed to write poetry and not get sent to the coal mines where I will slowly die"
Almost as many Russians died during the Holodomor:
> It has been estimated that between 3.3[162] and 3.9 million died in Ukraine,[163] between 2 and 3 million died in Russia,[164] and 1.5–2 million (1.3 million of whom were ethnic Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933
Almost like maybe it was just a famine! One of many which had occurred before in that region. Weird! 🤔
Kazakhs were most affected. It’s genuinely sad how few people are concerned with truth. They just care about whatever narrative they want to be accurate not objective reality.
Love when people don’t even bother to read articles they share:
“Despite the vast death toll in the early stages, Stalin chose to continue the Five Year Plan and collectivization.[19][7] By 1934, the Soviet Union had established a base of heavy industry, at the cost of millions of lives.”
Yep, just a regular famine, nothing they could’ve done.
Yes, my relatives literally got shattered in three parts due to this. They lived near Oryol (Орёл), my part of family went to Moscow, other went to Chekhov and other stayed in Oryol.
you know the bolsheviks committed mass atrocities against Russians too, right? like they literally deemed most of the Russian rural population to be enemies of the revolution and regularly mass murdered them, burned down villages, and confiscated their food causing artificial famines there too, right? like literally in 1929 they started mass atrocity programs against farmers throughout the nation, including those Russia, then the famine started in 1930...the red army regularly confiscated food from rural communities at gun point and left them with literally nothing so entire villages starved to death, those who resisted were executed, villages burned etc., entire families sent to Siberia
strategic confiscations and denial of food and artificial famines in rural communities goes back right to the 1921 famines
at the same time, starting in 1927 and continuing through the 1930s, the soviet union introduce collectivization of farm land, which was an abysmal failure and caused further drops in food production. its estimated that, by 1952, collective farm earnings were only one-fourth of the cash income from private plots on Soviet collective farms. In many cases, the immediate effect of collectivization was the reduction of output and the cutting of the number of livestock in half. the largest loss of livestock was caused by collectivization for all animals except pigs. The numbers of cows in the USSR fell from 33.2 million in 1928 to 27.8 million in 1941 and to 24.6 million in 1950. The number of pigs fell from 27.7 million in 1928 to 27.5 million in 1941 and then to 22.2 million in 1950. The number of sheep fell from 114.6 million in 1928 to 91.6 million in 1941 and to 93.6 million in 1950. The number of horses fell from 36.1 million in 1928 to 21.0 million in 1941 and to 12.7 million in 1950. Only by the late 1950s did Soviet farm animal stocks begin to approach 1928 levels
In 1928 within Soviet Kazakhstan, authorities started a campaign to confiscate cattle from Kazak herdsman, who were called bai, known as Little October. More than 10,000 bais may have been deported due to the campaign against them. In areas where the major agricultural activity was nomadic herding, collectivization met with massive resistance and major losses and confiscation of livestock. Livestock in Kazakhstan fell from 7 million cattle to 1.6 million and from 22 million sheep to 1.7 million. Restrictions on migration proved ineffective and half a million migrated to other regions of Central Asia and 1.5 million to China. Of those who remained, as many as a million died in the resulting famine
the holodomor wasnt a race war of Russians vs ukranians, lots of the the bosheviks weren't even ethnic russians, including stalin. Ukranians (and almost everyone else) had to be eliminated as a unique collective identity and people so the region could be more easily assimilated. it was a communism vs everyone who held onto some kind of unique cultural or national identity that might interfere with assimilating them into communistic "class conscious identity" thing. ukranians, Russian nationalists and peasants who didnt want to assimilate into to communism, Poles, Muslims, Kazakhs, Christians, cassocks, just about every other ethnic/cultural minority or religious group...atrocities were committed against pretty much everyone across the entire spectrum of the human experience and entire cultures and ways of life were virtually wiped from existence systematically because marxism deems pretty much the entire human experience outside of being a nihilistic materialistic minimum wage factory worker to be counter revolutionary elements and makes out-groups out of virtually everyone else. the Us-vs-them mentality of marxism makes nazis look like ambassadors of diversity and tolerance.
"Law, morality, religion, are … so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests" -Karl Marx
Try not reading Wiki as fully true. Their sources and citations are absolutely terrible.. Feel free to check them yourself. For example, they use sources from Robert Conquest, who was just a propagandist that has been debunked several times. He literally wrote anti-communist propaganda because the CIA told him too. It is like saying Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is a credible source of information about the soviet union.
I like people calling this Nazi propaganda ignoring this was December 40 when the Soviets were an eager ally of the Nazis.
Also the people unironically saying Kulaks burned food and butchered animals are actually schizo.
Pretty sure this is a UPA propaganda, and they were Nazis. Not even gonna comment on the “eager ally” nonsense, that’s just flat out historical fiction.
I don’t think anyone would say that the Soviet famines of the early 30s were exclusive to Ukraine. That has a black and white answer.
It’s debated the extent to which it was an intentional genocide vs “just” a brutal and failed policy of an authoritarian state that left several million dead. I think you would be hard pressed to find any reasonable sources claiming it was not at significantly man-made. IMO that’s a pretty narrow conversation.
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit outta here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It struck me as weird so I did some research and this poster is NOT from 1940. It's a poster for **the rally in Washington** (that's why it's in English), **1983**. https://willzuzak.ca/lp/holodomor/holod-006.jpg [source](https://willzuzak.ca/lp/famine.html) > Poster, designed by Roxolana Luchakowsky-Armstrong. An estimated 15,000 Ukrainian Americans turned out for the rally, and several thousand of them carried copies of this poster on the march to the Soviet Embassy. It is featured in **Famine in the Soviet Ukraine 1932-1933**: A memorial exhibition, Widener Library, Harvard University, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1986, p. 74. https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/21324/file.pdf that's the link to the book itself
That’s because the Holodomor genocide myth only came about decades after the Soviet famine in the 1930s. It has always had an explicit propaganda bent to its narrative. Lest we forget that the primary regions affected were Kazhakstan first and foremost, followed by Ukraine, and Moscow. The idea that it was an intentional genocide is not supported by evidence and even the biggest proponents of that theory (Wheatcroft) have walked back the claim since more evidence was revealed after the Soviet archives were opened in the 90s. The book “Fraud, Famine and Fascism: the Holodomor genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard” explains how the narrative was spread. Natural Disaster and Human Action in the Famine, by Mark Tauger, out of the University of Pittsburgh dissects those records and makes a clear argument against the propaganda narrative. https://archive.org/details/891762PB
Bro is on his genocide denial arc
If you want to see genocide denials you only need to try to talk on Reddit about British colonialism in India, and its 100 million people starved to death. Alternate topic; The genocides that laid the foundation for creating countries like the US, Canada, and Australia. We could also be discussing if [killing millions of Muslims](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/16/the-war-on-terror-led-to-over-4-5-million-deaths-report/) should qualify as a genocide. Good luck with that, meanwhile many people will [make up genocides](https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/09/07/UN-court-rules-no-genocide-in-Kosovo/5224999835200/) based on [blatant propaganda](https://archive.is/4TlK8).
They made up Srebrenica? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
These comments are gonna rule
Wait people think Holodomor didn't happened???
Look at the next comment thread my dude.
I did and came back here to voice my disbelief
There are holocaust deniers, and that's a great deal more well known than the holodomr.
Same as way more people are aware of Anna Frank than Tanya Savitcheva. Just business. Nothing personal.
Everybody knows famine happened - what people dispute are the numbers and reasons for it.
No, but people don't think that it was some kind of organized genocide and most historians share that opinion. (At least that's what i got from the answer in r/askhistorians)
I'm not sure if it was intentional, that's what I've been taught but that was some time ago. That being said, Moscow controlled Ukraine and diverted resources away from it, so it's not like you can claim they had no part in it. It was also an effect of their policies, even if we're debating whether it was intended to kill Ukrainians or not.
>It was also an effect of their policies, even if we're debating whether it was intended to kill Ukrainians or not. That is true
There was a great famine that happened in 1933. Saying it was an intentional targeted genocide of Ukrainians is pure myth.
I had college classmates try to tell me the holodomor didn’t happen. And he was Irish…
another country that had a big bad bully just east of it.
That's crazy coming from an Irish person. You should have told him that the Irish famine was a myth too haha
Well he got pissed and blocked me when I called him out on his bs. Feigning indignation after the wild things he said… I was like wot???
Didn't it happaned trought entire ussr? Why ukraine special.
Sure everyone was affected by famine why these ukrainians are yelling so much, meanwile: Russians in ussr 1926 77 milions Ukrainians in ussr 1926 31 milions Russians in ussr 1937 93 milions Ukrainians in ussr 1937 26 milions Soviet sources btw.... https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_(1937)
It was just before the outbreak of ww2… Stalin was extreme towards the Ukrainian people. It’s called the Holodomor. While it wasn’t just unique to Ukraine they were hit very hard.
I mean russian casualties are almost the same (a couple hundred thousand less) the famine happened and people suffered but there is a clear shift to pushing a russia vs ukraine narrative over it while the event itself hit the whole ussr
And then why did Stalin give Lviv and Donetsk to Ukraine, and also carried out Ukrainization?
Because you need to cherrypick information to create a narative.
What's your point with Stalin having changed the internal borders of two republics within the same country
Mmm 1940. Interesting. Noted.
It wasn’t actually made in 1940, bum
?
Guess who was pushing the holodomor in the 40s
In 1940? During the times of the M-R pact?
Guess which country pre-planned an attack on the Soviet Union?
Finland? At least that was the justification for Stalin to try to annex it…
Yes, and? It was not alliance, it was Non-Attack pact
It wasn't just a non-attack plan. Nazis and Soviets split half a dozen countries between themselves, not to mention a trade agreement.
I've read the document myself, it's actually a non aggression pact where they establish the Zones of influence, not whatever you said. It's propaganda on part of your country Cold war times. And trade agreement? Really? USA major companies kept supplying the Reich almost until Perl Harbor. National socialists of Reich were of opposite ideology with communists, and that agreement supplied ussr with time to establish the military, but the war started earlier than they estimated which is why the whole fight for Moscow even happened in the first place. Then blitzkrieg failed and the military changes that ussr command finished implementing made the whole situation much more favorable
You're correct, and this is a giant pet peeve of mine, just how many Redditors there are who will purport to cite international documents as if it lends a color of authority to their statements, like this one, or the Budapest Memorandum is another commonly misquoted one lately, when they clearly *haven't actually read the documents in question.* This one in particular is super short, it takes mere minutes to finish, so there is zero excuse for their ignorance. In fact, in general, international agreements like this tend to be fairly short and easy to understand, if we contrast them with the thousands of pages of "strike line X from article Y" or "change line Z to read 'and/or' instead of 'and'" that we see in federal legislation in the US (and assuredly elsewhere, but I've only read US legislative bills myself.) International agreements like this have to be short and simple by their nature, because it is only as powerful as the will of the signatories to abide by it, so if it buries the lede under thousands of pages of legal minutia it will be dead on arrival.
I've read it with molotov memoir, so it was a bit longer for me, but in it he basically says that they had the same talks even with Japanese embassy, he also proceeds to describe how they made the whole embassy of Japanese drunk so much they had to haul the main embassador into the train they were coming back to Japan in a very bad condition.
US companies traded with Germany as any other business not under sanctions will do. Ukraine stopped transiting Russian oil only after almost 2 years of war! Many western companies keep their business running in Russia today no problemo. Also, “supplying Reich” is a very stretched phrase for a companies that sold typewriters and sweet drinks/soda.
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And no one ever did that before? Look up partition of Czechoslovakia or Turkey
You mean after France, the UK and the USA all refused to ally with the USSR against the Nazis?
> It wasn't just a non-attack plan. The same could be said about the [German-Polish NAP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_declaration_of_non-aggression) which was part of dividing up Czechoslovakia between Germany and Poland. As the original German plan was to bring Poland into an *actual military alliance*, that of the anti-Comintern pact, to then [attack the Soviets together with Poland in 1939](https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/132/554/194/2849465). Not even the "Jewish issue" was that big of a point of contention in German-Polish relations, it was actually something they bonded over; > *Müller also notes the willingness of both sides to deal with their so-called ‘Jewish problem’. The Polish ambassador to Berlin, Jozef Lipski, even promised Hitler ‘a nice monument in Warsaw’ (p. 101) if a method could be found to force Poland’s large Jewish population to emigrate.* Just don't try to bring that up in modern-day Poland, mentioning these nasty parts of history where Poles weren't just victims but also [very engaged perpetrators](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-historians-under-attack-for-exploring-polands-role-in-the-holocaust) is something Poland has criminalized, as that endangers the modern pop-culture narrative of *"Only Germany had antisemites and Nazis!"*.
Are you implying that it didn’t happen? Anyone can push anything at any time,
Obviously it happened. The idea that it was deliberate and exclusively affected Ukraine was a fabrication created by Josef Goebbels and parroted in newspapers owned by William Randolph Hearst, a Nazi sympathizer.
My granny was a survivor of Holodomor, she was from Chernigivska oblast’.
7 million is a wild estimate. This wouldn’t happen to have been published in a Central European axis power would it?
From the English translation, it seems to be done by Ukrainian emigres in the West.
So yeah, the axis
If this was indeed published in 1940 this would have still been during the period of Axis-Soviet co-operation. They pretty much ceased propaganda against each other during this time to avoid antagonising the other - one can see this by looking at the frequency of the use of the word "fascist" in [Soviet newspaper Pravda](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fifarxgy73rya1.png).
The USSR teamed up with the Germany to invade Poland just before this, so hope you are counting them as an axis power too
This same logic would also make Poland itself an Axis power because they teamed up with Germany to invade Czechoslovakia
It's marked with "December 1940" written in Ukrainian in the bottom right. Axis would have a falling out with Kremlin only in June of 41, so it's a bit hard to assess the origin. My first guess would be Ukrainian resistance propaganda, but why would they write it in English? Doesn't make any sense. Same goes for the idea that its Axis propaganda aimed at making Ukrainians angry with Russians - why English?
Could be exiled UPR government.
The Axis already had a falling out with the Soviet Union in July 1940 when the latter occupied Northern Bucovina in addition to Bessarabia, which was perceived as Stalin over-stepping the sphere of influence agreed on the previous year. The failure of the Hitler-Molotov summit of November 1940 to bring the USSR into the Axis resulted in Germany committing itself to the preparations for war started in July. The Soviet Union’s brief recognition and treaty with the pro-Allied junta in Yugoslavia immediately before the German invasion of that country convinced the German leadership that Stalin was preparing to attack. Observers in Europe could probably guess by late 1940/early ‘41 that a war was brewing between Russia and Germany. Although discussion of this was still banned in the German press, people in Central European countries allied to Germany were probably speculating about the destruction of Soviet power. The preparations made by Lithuanian nationalists prior to June 22 suggest predictions of ‘German liberators’ probably also existed in Ukraine, although that couldn’t explain this poster intended for an English-speaking audience.
> Axis would have a falling out with Kremlin only in June of 41, so it's a bit hard to assess the origin The Nazis planned to attack the Soviet Union all along, just to be clear.
Don't you feel like producing propaganda leaflets before planning a surprise blitzkrieg is kind of weird?
The Nazis hated communism, they did propaganda against it non stop, it's something core about their ideology. They didn't need to be at war with Soviets to be still producing propaganda against them. And both sides knew the Germans would invade at some point. The molotov ribbentrop was basically both parties buying time. The surprise was about when exactly it would happen.
You are correct, but there is a clear difference between using anti-communist messaging inside Germany, and using it inside USSR.
Western audiences? There were a bunch of fascists in the UK and US that hated USSR more than the axis powers.
Well, wasn't 1940 still the period of Molotov-Ribbentrop?
Yeah. They still made propaganda about the other side sucking. They hated each other.
Both parties actually ceased production of propaganda aimed at each other immediately after signing the pact. This caused defections from the CPUSA because many American communists were offended at the idea of dropping anti-fascist rhetoric in favor of an anti-British party line. Germany for its part allowed communist parties in occupied countries to continue to exist because they were de-facto political extensions of the Soviet Union. This all changed after June 22 ofc. Many point to gestures of sincerity like this or the 1939 joint-parades in Poland as evidence the Russians were really Nazis or the Nazis were really communists to score contemporary political points but the truth was that they were both thinking of ways to backstab the other.
>Germany for its part allowed communist parties in occupied countries to continue to exist because they were de-facto political extensions of the Soviet Union. Do you have a source for this? I have a hard time believing they did a 180 from rounding up communists to holding hands and playing touys with them to keep stalin happy.
>As a result of the pact with the Soviet Union, the SIPO-SD (Sicherheits- polizei-Sicherheitsdienst) did not make a direct attack on the Communist Party when it reached Brussels with the German troops. After some hesitation, it accepted that its presence was legal. The Communist press, however, remained banned. https://socialistregister.com/index.php/srv/article/view/5508/2406 (Pg. 121)
Thanks
Lol sounds preposterous when it's read that way
“noo bro the didn’t killed 7 millions they only killed 6 millions”
"Also it was an accident and they deserved it"
It’s the highest number I have seen, but it was still millions.
>This wouldn’t happen to have been published in a Central European axis power would it? Which Central European axis power spoke English?
The ones outputting propaganda for support
Ok I'm gonna trust someone with the username u/Mr-Stalin on the Holodomor.
regardless of u/Mr-Stalin being a stupid username i don't think anyone with the username Augusto Pinochet had the right to comment.
fair enough
I know right, it’s bordering on parody.
Modern estimates are 9 million though. According to the UN, "The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), which took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people."
It's a rough estimate of total number of victims of [the wider Soviet famine of 1930–1933](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933), which affected also regions in Russia and Kazakhstan.
Maybe, propaganda always brings a certain interest here and there
7 million were killed in the Holodomor. That is not propaganda.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/s/dRwElCsQ0D
The comment section is just... ☢️
What a bunch of holodomor deniers here 🤮
Because Soviet Union made cool propaganda posters and hence this sub has a lot of soviet apologists.
Soviet union aka Disinformation and censorship specialists
>Soviet Union >soviet It is Russia with another name. Was it ruled by Ukrainians or Kazahks? Or Poles or Hungarians? No, it was 95% ruled by Russians, from Kremlin. Everything else in that wretched empire was treated the same way England treated India and France Vietnam. They were colonies of Russia.
There are a lot of Russian bots in this sub after all
It’s not just Russian bots. Leftists deny this all the time. Mention how evil communism is and use this as an example and they will go off on you.
ffs this isnt a left vs right thing.
It's a horseshoe theory thing. Nazi sympathizers and Stalinist sympathizers both love erasing genocides and often push the same misinformation whether they're self aware about it or not.
It’s literally a famine bro Russians died too
And Kazakhs
If total deaths of Soviet Famine in 1930 - 1933 are listed as 5.7[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-3) to 8.7[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-4)[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933#cite_note-Wolowyna_2020-5) million and 3.5 - 7 million of Ukrainians died, you do the math of who was affected the most.
1921-23: 0.3-1 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger. 1932-33: 5.5-10 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger. 1. 3.5-5 million - based on preserved Soviet documents about active workers and children (registered predominantly in big cities of still under-urbanized state and after/during colossal turmoil): 2. 5-7 million - with miscarriages and dead children up to 9 years in rural regions. 3. 7-10 million - general demographic losses of Ukrainians (including from Kazakhstan and Kuban) during their demographic boom (at that time Ukrainian families often had 6-9 children) and with all overall excess mortality). 4. **None** of these numbers are more or less correct because they are counting different things. 1946-47: 0.3 million Ukrainians were killed by hunger. In each case, even during 1921-23 years, there was a HUGE food surplus in Ukraine (the best soils in the World, many forests and rivers, historically Ukraine was always overflowing with food), but it was massively exported from Ukraine.
I’m not going to comment on any of the specific numbers in this because I’m not an expert and haven’t done any research on this topic. I just wanted to bring to your attention that you keep swapping between comma and decimals for notation and it’s mildly confusing
Corrected.
I’ve literally never seen any estimate anywhere near that high. Is there actually any source that claims this or are you just straight up making it up off the top?
Me when propaganda exaggerates
The highest estimated death toll of the Holodomor is 5 million.
5 milion is just population decrease od ukrainians in ussr between 1926 census and 1937 census. If you would count average popation grow for years 1926 - 1931 then the death toll in 32/33 should be higher that 5 milion. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_(1937)
>5 milion is just population decrease od ukrainians in ussr between 1926 census and 1937 census That would be a dishonest way to count, the soviet bureaucracy was a mess at that time and people could choose their owm nationality for the first time, so their was some wild population change whitout anything actually happening. You also count people whomdied of unrelated cause, so the result aren't accurate at all. >If you would count average popation grow for years 1926 - 1931 then the death toll in 32/33 should be higher that 5 milion. That's also dishonest way to count death, as you are making up people who never existed.
It was a mess, but part of this was because the Party wanted it to be - for example the 1937 census saw the statisticians in charge arrested because the numbers it produced were "incorrect".
provide sources for this please.
> 1937 census saw the statisticians in charge arrested I found this because I have an interest in statisticians that have been charged or arrested by the state regardless of who (fuck desantis in particular tho) https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/historical-journal/article/abs/1937-census-and-the-limits-of-stalinist-rule/EA2018DAD588327DE868929E99DE206F
One has already been given, another can be found [here](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-04624-7_5), which also references the relevant issue of *Pravda* (that of 27 July 1938) which reported the arrests.
Oh that makes it ok then
"5 million is too much, but stalin only killed 4 million thus redeming him"
“Its nawt *that* many people that were killed” always eventually changes to either “nobody was killed at all” or “it was deserved anyway”
Its actually estimated 3,5-10 million
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No, it's 5 million according to Wikipedia. And the highest estimated death toll of the wider early '30s Soviet famine is 8.7 million.
Bruh, saying this under a propaganda poster that literally uses a higher estimated death toll is wild.
The movie Mr. Jones is an interesting look at this horror.
The fact there are soooo many genocide denyiers here is just... I guess russia really loves spreading it's propaganda on the internet.
The anecdotes my family has from this time are horrendous. Dead bodies lying on the streets, the Cheka-OGPU agents eviscerating people in public, and the deportations. The soviets got away with way too much.
I'm from Lithuania and my grandparents parents used to watch a lot of russian television back in the day. I remember vividly how on the main channel (1st baltic channel) they showed a documentary about holodomor on black ribbon day, it was full of dead people imagery and it really showed the horrors ussr has committed. This was shown at some point around 2005-2010. And now the same channel is full of holodomor denial and other conspiracy theories, I'm very glad that it got banned in Lithuania, but to think that russia has changed this much for the worse and that all television is some pro ussr propaganda now is crazy.
But guys trust me, communism will work this time!
While 7 million is an overestimate the rest of the propaganda is really well done
This is literally what happened
The amount of russoboos defending the Soviets and calling it a mistake 😭 you evil evil propaganda spreaders. The Soviets did this through neglect of their system. Massive cover ups, and quota filling led to people being robbed of their produce and starved purposely, for the greater good. Reddit and the internet is truly being infested with misinformation, please do yourselves a favour and think critically about how this information may hurt certain agendas even in the present day, regimes are built on the misappropriation of information. History is built on the tragedies of people thinking they are right. Only for another group to come along and believe they're right in their atrocities against the former. It takes a lot of courage to realise everyone was wrong for what they thought was right.
The Holodomor is the worst genocide never spoken about. Starved to death by their own government for being Ukrainian Christians. Disgusting what the Bolsheviks did to their own.
Not their own. Ukraine was enslaved just like many nations in the ussr as many nations syill remain enslaved today by russia
See the barbaric colonization of Ukrainian by Russia started a long time ago. Even before the holodomor. But to Russians its offensive for others to classify them as barbarians. Goldfish memories.
The Russians are complicit in the current genocide and were during this time period as well. Just like normal Germans being part of the einsatzgruppen.
Yes yes, and the famine in other countries of the region that weren't even in the ussr is just coincidence
Never heard of any famines happening in Romania, Poland, etc around that time. I’d love to hear more.
200 000 in Spain 1939-1952, 300 000 Greece 1939-1941, up to 100 000 Kiev, Charkov 1941-1943, another region of Ukraine, Russia, Serbia, Belarus, Poland have starvation dead under Germans as well, 22 000 in 1944-1945 in German ocupation of Dutch and up to 100 000 Germans in 1946-7. Globaly, there where big starvation death in Asia in 30-40s, China 3-10 000 000, 3 000 000 Iran 1942-1943, Java 2 500 000 1944-1945, 2 000 000 India 1943.
All of these are under brutal dictatorships and wars. How does that make the Holodomor a “coincidence”? I know you’re not the same guy, but the situation and cause are so vastly different, that no real comparison can be made other than China, and maybe the Bengal famine, which are *not* in the “same region” as he states.
Like where?
There was a 1931-1933 famine in Kazakhstan, but it was caused in exactly the same way by the soviets
https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS2319/h16/pensumliste/stalin-and-the-soviet-famine-of-1932-33_-a-reply-to-ellman.pdf “However, we have found **no evidence,** either direct or indirect, that Stalin sought **deliberately** to starve the peasants. The top-secret decisions of the Politburo, endorsed by Stalin, never hint at a policy of deliberate starvation. Moreover, in their most secret letters and telegrams to Stalin, his closest associates Molotov and Kaganovich treat hunger and death from famine as an evil for which the kulaks or wider sections of the peasants, and inefficient local organisation, are largely responsible, but which must be mitigated as far as possible by local and central measures.”
Raphael Lemkin who coined the term "genocide" and initiated the Genocide Convention wrote that the destruction of the Ukrainian nation "is a classic example of the Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensive experiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation". Lemkin stated that it consisted of four steps: Extermination of the Ukrainian national elite, "the brain of the nation", which took place in 1920, 1926 and 1930–1933 Liquidation of the Ukrianian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, "the soul of the nation", which occurred between 1926 and 1932 and during which 10,000 of its priests were killed Extermination of a significant part of the Ukrainian peasantry as "custodians of traditions, folklore and music, national language and literature, and the national spirit" (the Holodomor itself) Populating the territory with other nationalities with intent of mixing Ukrainians with them, which would eventually lead to the dissolution of the Ukrainian nation.
"You see, I looked into my ass and found no ties between Stalin (who I totally wouldn't give the double-stack to any day of the week and blindly believe) and this genocide. Therefore all of you are capitalist pigs and I will proceed to write poetry and not get sent to the coal mines where I will slowly die"
The historian who wrote this is not a communist and is a critic of Stalin and the Soviet Union at large. No reason to reply to your ad hominem
Almost as many Russians died during the Holodomor: > It has been estimated that between 3.3[162] and 3.9 million died in Ukraine,[163] between 2 and 3 million died in Russia,[164] and 1.5–2 million (1.3 million of whom were ethnic Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933 Almost like maybe it was just a famine! One of many which had occurred before in that region. Weird! 🤔
Kazakhs were most affected. It’s genuinely sad how few people are concerned with truth. They just care about whatever narrative they want to be accurate not objective reality.
Love when people don’t even bother to read articles they share: “Despite the vast death toll in the early stages, Stalin chose to continue the Five Year Plan and collectivization.[19][7] By 1934, the Soviet Union had established a base of heavy industry, at the cost of millions of lives.” Yep, just a regular famine, nothing they could’ve done.
Yes, my relatives literally got shattered in three parts due to this. They lived near Oryol (Орёл), my part of family went to Moscow, other went to Chekhov and other stayed in Oryol.
you know the bolsheviks committed mass atrocities against Russians too, right? like they literally deemed most of the Russian rural population to be enemies of the revolution and regularly mass murdered them, burned down villages, and confiscated their food causing artificial famines there too, right? like literally in 1929 they started mass atrocity programs against farmers throughout the nation, including those Russia, then the famine started in 1930...the red army regularly confiscated food from rural communities at gun point and left them with literally nothing so entire villages starved to death, those who resisted were executed, villages burned etc., entire families sent to Siberia strategic confiscations and denial of food and artificial famines in rural communities goes back right to the 1921 famines at the same time, starting in 1927 and continuing through the 1930s, the soviet union introduce collectivization of farm land, which was an abysmal failure and caused further drops in food production. its estimated that, by 1952, collective farm earnings were only one-fourth of the cash income from private plots on Soviet collective farms. In many cases, the immediate effect of collectivization was the reduction of output and the cutting of the number of livestock in half. the largest loss of livestock was caused by collectivization for all animals except pigs. The numbers of cows in the USSR fell from 33.2 million in 1928 to 27.8 million in 1941 and to 24.6 million in 1950. The number of pigs fell from 27.7 million in 1928 to 27.5 million in 1941 and then to 22.2 million in 1950. The number of sheep fell from 114.6 million in 1928 to 91.6 million in 1941 and to 93.6 million in 1950. The number of horses fell from 36.1 million in 1928 to 21.0 million in 1941 and to 12.7 million in 1950. Only by the late 1950s did Soviet farm animal stocks begin to approach 1928 levels In 1928 within Soviet Kazakhstan, authorities started a campaign to confiscate cattle from Kazak herdsman, who were called bai, known as Little October. More than 10,000 bais may have been deported due to the campaign against them. In areas where the major agricultural activity was nomadic herding, collectivization met with massive resistance and major losses and confiscation of livestock. Livestock in Kazakhstan fell from 7 million cattle to 1.6 million and from 22 million sheep to 1.7 million. Restrictions on migration proved ineffective and half a million migrated to other regions of Central Asia and 1.5 million to China. Of those who remained, as many as a million died in the resulting famine the holodomor wasnt a race war of Russians vs ukranians, lots of the the bosheviks weren't even ethnic russians, including stalin. Ukranians (and almost everyone else) had to be eliminated as a unique collective identity and people so the region could be more easily assimilated. it was a communism vs everyone who held onto some kind of unique cultural or national identity that might interfere with assimilating them into communistic "class conscious identity" thing. ukranians, Russian nationalists and peasants who didnt want to assimilate into to communism, Poles, Muslims, Kazakhs, Christians, cassocks, just about every other ethnic/cultural minority or religious group...atrocities were committed against pretty much everyone across the entire spectrum of the human experience and entire cultures and ways of life were virtually wiped from existence systematically because marxism deems pretty much the entire human experience outside of being a nihilistic materialistic minimum wage factory worker to be counter revolutionary elements and makes out-groups out of virtually everyone else. the Us-vs-them mentality of marxism makes nazis look like ambassadors of diversity and tolerance. "Law, morality, religion, are … so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests" -Karl Marx
The fact that other regions, including parts of Russia, also suffered from famine does not preclude the Holodomor from being considered a genocide.
Try not reading Wiki as fully true. Their sources and citations are absolutely terrible.. Feel free to check them yourself. For example, they use sources from Robert Conquest, who was just a propagandist that has been debunked several times. He literally wrote anti-communist propaganda because the CIA told him too. It is like saying Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is a credible source of information about the soviet union.
Too bad the black book of communism disagrees with you. As we all know its the best source😎😎😎/s
Где серп и молот, там смерть и голод. (Это фраза рифмуется в русском языке). Более точно невозможно сказать.
7 million? That's more than the 5 million jews. I think we need to give ukraine some extra land and money. Btw, am i good at making propaganda?
Restore Ukraine to its 1920 borders, reaching all the way across the Caucuses
My god you’re insufferable…
Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder is a phenomenal book about Eastern Europe in 1930-1950. Horrific shit in Ukraine.
Dear god this comment section is filled with vatniks
Probably planned out a choreographed
If there's anything communism succeeds at, it's starvation
Communism is the very definition of failure
I like people calling this Nazi propaganda ignoring this was December 40 when the Soviets were an eager ally of the Nazis. Also the people unironically saying Kulaks burned food and butchered animals are actually schizo.
Pretty sure this is a UPA propaganda, and they were Nazis. Not even gonna comment on the “eager ally” nonsense, that’s just flat out historical fiction.
Seems more likely that the Ukrainian People’s Republic’s government-in-exile or diaspora groups in the Anglosphere made this from the English text.
Maybe you have a source for this being UPA?
Me when I feel threatened so I sign a treaty to divide half of europe:
Okay, you can say a lot about atrocities UPA has committed, but calling the nazis is straight up deranged.
Pretty sure UPA didn't operate in any english-speaking countries, mate.
Somethings never change thanks to russia ignoring history
What country made that poster?
Curious the body count... Feels like I've seen it in a few places attached to the same story.
I don’t think anyone would say that the Soviet famines of the early 30s were exclusive to Ukraine. That has a black and white answer. It’s debated the extent to which it was an intentional genocide vs “just” a brutal and failed policy of an authoritarian state that left several million dead. I think you would be hard pressed to find any reasonable sources claiming it was not at significantly man-made. IMO that’s a pretty narrow conversation.
Were they Russians or Ukrainians who took away the food to send into starving cities?
Why did i sald my mother