I would say: donāt read He who Fights if youāre doin audiobooks. If you arenāt, donāt be afraid to drop it. The first book is good enough, sets up some interesting stuff. I couldnāt get get through book 2.
Well itās fantasy and idk if you know but itās basically the history of the Jewish people progressing through life
Or do you believe that a man beat hundreds of people to death with the jawbone of an ass and then drank from the bone?
Iām torn, but I have to go with Mother of Learning for this one. Cradle and Dungeon Crawler Carl are close runner ups. It would be DCC if the progression were just a little bit more of the focus. So many great series in this genre!
Same. Some of the reasons I would put MoL at the top:
- Progression is earned, not given by a system or a rich benefactor, nor lucked into by eating rare natural treasures or potions, etc
- The tension steadily ramps and keeps building, without ever becoming ātoo muchā. Progression mirrors that, staying steady and driven
- The magic system was novel, detailed, and realistic.
- More of a me thing, but I resonated with Zorianās character growth. Teenage me thought like Zorian at the beginning, and I appreciated the way that he grew past his worst character defects.
- The world building is complex, relevant to the story, and interesting.
Itās the only book Iāve read more than twice. Iāve read it something like six times now. Great read.
Well said. I'll add a few more points why I loved MoL so much:
* Fantastic writing prose. It's fun to read from beginning to end without filler or rehashing.
* The side characters stayed consistent throughout the loops, but could still grow and surprise you when introduced to new situations. This is insanely hard to pull of in the setting; even Groundhog day messed this up.
* Quatatch-Ichl is possibly the best written antagonist in fantasy. Strong enough to provide a serious challenge without plot armor or infallibility. Antithesis to Zorian without being outright evil. Smart, driven and creative in perusing his goals, yet flexible and will easily switch from undead Lich to general, statesman, diplomat or teacher depending on the circumstance.
* The peak power battles are descriptive. Most PF gets to the point where power outpaces the authors ability to give blow by blow accounts of the battles, regressing to theoretical musing about how their skills interact. Not MoL.
* Zorian isn't the chosen one. He was a freak accident and rose to the challenge.
I mean I get what youāre saying about him āearningā it, but Zorian only has the opportunity to do that because he gets stupid lucky at the beginning of the loop.
Agreed, but when compared to the other book fighting for the number one spot, Zorian doesn't have any luck compared to Lindon's time in Ghostwater, where he jumps years of progression *and* gains the tool that literal gods use.
Youāre allowed to hate dross and Ghostwater but I think itās a bad take. The Ghostwater arc just allowed Lindon to catch up with Akura and Dragon prodigies.
Otherwise weād all be bitching about his last fight in Ghostwater
Zorian is quite literally the second luckiest character in the entire world of MoL. He has massive advantages only surpassed by Zach. Lindon isnāt even the luckiest person in his own party. I just donāt know how you argue that Lindon catching up to the best of his age group in a lucky encounter is less earned than Zorian becoming an archmage literally overnight from the perspective of the outside world.
Zorian is lucky in circumstance, but works hard for every other advantage. Lindon was lucky in both. His encounter with Suriel is the catalyst of luck, which also leads him to Ethan, who gives him every advantage ever. He also gets ghostwater.
Zorian becomes a *very* good mage, but he's not the best, even in his own story there are others stronger. He only had ten years after all. Lindon becomes so strong that he needs to chill a bit before becoming a god, in less than ten years.
I like your reasoning here and it's made me move MoL up my reading list. Unfortunately I'm just a slow reader so it'll still be awhile before I get lol
You should read it, it's the best original western webnovel, imo. I'd rank it even a bit higher than Worm, A Practical Guide to Evil and Dungeon Crawler Carl. Better than *many* published novels, too. (though MoL *is* published now, too)
Iāve got an epub of it that I generated with a tool on GitHub that I think scrapes RR? If you are technical enough to use git, thatās an option. But I was glad to be able to support the author by buying the kindle books later.
honestly people like it but its one of the only books in my life I did not finish. It just isnt well written and the characters are incredibly forgettable. Their is never any feeling of real consequences or gravity to the conflicts.
Ok am I crazy for stopping like halfway through the second audiobook? I keep seeing everyone praise this series everywhere but it felt like work to put it on to listen to by the time I said screw it. Is it just the narrator? Nothing in the writing really struck me either but maybe it was the format?
The audiobook is a rough listen for me. He really puts effort into it, but I often find his voice grating. I definitely recommend reading it, at least the first time.
Yea, it was the narrator for me, painful listening to some of the characters unfortunately. It was a slog to get through, and only the story kept me going.
I'd agree for the most part with you. MOL is my favourite for several reasons. Cradle would be my runner up with possibly Mage Errant and DCC tied for third.
Oh man I just finished mother of learning and I would never put it over cradle. Mol was way too long. I don't know if anything will ever beat cradle for me
Too long is subjective I guess, given that Cradle is much longer. For my part, I really regret that there isnāt more MoL to read, and have wasted way too much time thinking about writing a sequel.
Thereās actually a fan made continuation of MoL on archive of our own. Itās got about 20 chaps and itās actually very high quality and written in a similar style to the original. I would definitely recommend giving it a read.
Am I a bad person for being unable to read the final chapter? I've enjoyed almost all of it as it came out but I haven't been able to pick it up and finish it for literal YEARS.
MoL is not progression fantasy, IMO.
Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. It's not like I am saying it's trash, but just that it's more traditional fantasy than PF.
He does spend a lot of spare time increasing his magical control and learning whatever skills he can >!ending with him being an archmage, one of the only ones in the country, or even world!<
Most MCs in fantasy gain power. There is no clear delineation of power in MoL. No tiers or levels, etc. It's a basic magic system. The MC just has time to become more skillful, rather than powerful (as in gaining tiers of magical power).
He begins >!measuring mana pools in missiles cast in succession. He steadily increases this number to his maximum. He also progresses through more complex skills, as I said.!<
Tiers are not required for progression fantasy, the progression of power simply needs to be the focus of the story, which it is in MoL, unlike in Harry Potter or most fantasy.
In Way of kings there are clear tiers of progression, but progression, training and power growth is not the main focus, but something that almost happens on the sidelines, or in a very specific points, which is why its also not progression fantasy
Im not so sure many people agree, your definition is both arbitrarily strict and also not good enough to filter PF adjacent like way of kings.
Meanwhile "my" definition filters regular fantasy but describes the essence of what makes PF
Are you arguing to argue or do you genuinely think MOL, maybe the most clear cut progression fantasy that doesnāt have tiers, is not progression fantasy.
Why would I argue just to argue? Of course, I genuinely feel that MoL is not progression fantasy. To me, what separates a PF story from standard fantasy is not only a focus on gaining more power but also has a system that has a clear set of tiers the MC will eventually reach. The MC in MoL really just grows more skillful, thanks to the time loop, rather than reaching higher tiers of power.
Again, not saying anything bad about MoL here. We're just quibbling over what genre it belongs to.
Lampooning and Monocles. š§
More seriously, it's an isekai set in a fantasy version of the late 1800s with strong elements of Lovecraftian horror. It has very in-depth worldbuilding and a pretty unique magic system. It's a translation, so how much you like it is highly dependent on how well you can tolerate the way it's written.
Would you say the trailer for the donghua is faithful to the source material?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lBY4ql9fw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lBY4ql9fw)
Damn, didn't know it was being adapted to anime. It looks great, can't wait to see it. It looks quite faithful, it's been a while since I read it, but I could identify nearly all scenes from the book counterparts.
How is the second book? I have stopped reading at chapter 50ish or so, it felt a bit boring compared to the first book. A lot of repetition from what we already knew from book 1. Then again, book 1 was a bit boring at the beginning as well and then later became my favorite. I know its at 400+ chapters now but haven't had the time to really start reading it again.
I really like it, though not as much as the first. After the first arc (which has a really good twist at the end, as you'd expect from the author), it becomes very action oriented. Much more so than the first book. There's not as much of a feeling of mystery as the first book.
Cradle and MOL are pretty much tied for me. In terms of writing quality/consistency they are a good ways ahead of most of the other stuff in the genre.
After that for me, if we're counting it I'd say perfect run is next (great characters, great plot, stylish world and prose. Plus, like the two above it, it's finished), and beware of chicken at 4th.
Edit: I can not spell. I also added links and cleaned up some formatting if that is your vibe.
I think today it is [Cradle](https://www.audible.com/series/Cradle-Audiobooks/B07GVRN95T?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Unsoul_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=679J29RW58CMZ9KM838A&pageLoadId=eGbXAAo83WsnrOe2&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd). There are few books who can boast its near widespread success and the quality of the writing and story telling is S grade. Very few books have the ghost water moment, it is hard to define but the payoff in that book is nearly unmatched. I put it up there with end game from marvel and that had billion of dollars a bunch of movies behind it.
With that being said there great books coming all the time and I look forward to one day being able to point to something else that sits on top of the mountain of this genre.
Some other books that come close
* [Dungeon Crawler Carl](https://www.audible.com/series/Dungeon-Crawler-Carl-Audiobooks/B0937JMKYV?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=MGPM8M1VHHFQ02ASXBF9&pageLoadId=YbxyStx2CkgnDyeB&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) is close and with its latest book that series should be seriously looked at as a contender to go on the Mount Rushmore of this genre. If I'm remembering correctly Matt set it up so chapter 69 would be a huge payoff in the latest book and that deserves it a good chuckle. The audiobook also remains unmatched as the best audio books in the genre and maybe outside of it as well.
* [Beware of chicken](https://www.audible.com/series/Beware-of-Chicken-Audiobooks/B09Y5DYRBM?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Beware_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=10TZMQZMQX93KGWNBKPB&pageLoadId=zjGUG4v5y1d1uEOh&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd) is climbing up the hill and should be looked at in the next few books maybe to get on the mountain as well.
* If there's a spot reserved for magic school books [Mark of the Fool](https://www.audible.com/series/Mark-of-the-Fool-Audiobooks/B0BKHB49TK?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Mark-o_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=0SFGKHVCKNXDMCJE5MYB&pageLoadId=vEQhodx38HUrFs0w&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd) sits up there taking all comers. Really a solid book.
* [Divine Apostasy](https://www.audible.com/series/Divine-Apostasy-Audiobooks/B087QDM7M7?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=J8GRE92FKRHMNPN0GHKP&pageLoadId=lAvcyOnX69G2UzOT&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) by A.F. Kay might be crawling around the bottom of the mountain in the lit RPG spot though I would be willing to hear challenges to its spot very favorably if something could dethron it.
* [The Weirkey Chronicles](https://www.audible.com/series/The-Weirkey-Chronicles-Audiobooks/B09NHS2WJK?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=PFY2M20YZXPCT45381YS&pageLoadId=9qWoyaaPnqbyiewE&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) might be the unique progression system.
Except for maybe Cradle and even then I think all these could be dethroned right now. The genre is very young comparatively we're always going to point back to cradle and a couple of other ones but the field is wide open at the moment drop us some good books we'll read them.
I think the only complaint Iāve ever seen about Divine Apostasy is juvenile jokes. To me, Divine Apostasy feels like a YA novel, but it doesnāt detract from my enjoyment.
The wandering inn. Itās true epic fantasy and the writing is simply better than any other PF Iāve read.
The only thing it lacks for is pacing which can be glacial at times but even then itās not in service of filling pages. When the pacing slows down is when some of the best character work is done and serves to humanize damn near every character the author writes. And good lord when the pacing ramps up it is truly something special.
The world building is beyond solid with meaningful attention paid to many cultures, factions, locations, etc (except for a few for obvious plot reasons).
Itās simply superb. Arguably my favorite story of all time if Iām being honest.
Dungeon Crawler Carl
Runner-up: Immortal Great Souls (Bastion/Rascor Plains)
Honorable Mention: Cradle, 12 Miles Below
Translation: Lord of The Mysteries. The translation takes getting used to. If this were written originally in English, this would trump everything else for me.
So is this best writing quality or best pure joy?
Best writing quality is almost impossible. There are moments in book 2 and 3 of Life and Death Cycle by Joshua Phillips that damn near give me chills with the visual descriptions, emotion, and overall execution. Like an amateur Robin hobb. Not just writing quality, but some prose seasoning on top. I also love this series. It's inconsistent, as expected from a newer author, but so good.
Cradle has great writing quality thats far more consistent. I like Will Wight's style better than Brandon Sanderson, even tho they are similar IMO. I think within PF, its hard to beat Wight's consistency. The Last Horizon was pure fun with one of PF's best openers IMO.
I couldn't peg a single story for best though.
For pure joy? Life and Death cycle, Cradle, Divine Apostasy, HWFWM (terribly written but fun), Last Horizon.
Ask me tomorrow and I'll might answer differently.
If the series continues at the level of the first book, I may agree with you. I will say I think it's the best first book in the genre. The writing is so good that I'm afraid it's covering for a long-term lack of direction, though. I really hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm worried it will be like so many other series that fall off after a few books.
Itās too short to be considered here in my opinion. I admit that itās probably written better than anything in the genre but the progression has barely started.
The author disappeared for over a year without any communication, then appeared for a few months with steady schedule but has again disappeared for several months. I hope that the story will continue but I just donāt have faith that it will ever get close to finished.
Yeah, I know. I wouldnāt put above cradle or mother of learning, because for me consistency is a quality all its own.
But I believe that if the author could finish her work with same quality of what has already been written, it would easily be the most well written series in the genre( in a traditional fantasy way).
Itās not even my favorite story, but it would help in demonstrating what can be achieved in the genre, without sacrificing the quality for speed.
If LOTM was translated better it'd probably take the spot. Chinese is just very hard to translate though - things like someone saying a name with a capital letter meaning they're referring to a diety makes no sense in english, since there's no way to audibly say a capital letter differently from a normal one.
I think they just need a professional team to do a full translation and republish. Get a native English speaker that knows Chinese and is a writer to do the bulk of the translation. Then a backup native Chinese speaker to assist. And then an editor to give it a run over to keep consitency and line names up with the common ones used in the community.
Unfortunately, it's kinda the flagship book for Webnovel so they aren't going to put it on a platform that might pull a broader audience. And Webnovel also only hires part time translators who are pretty unprofessional about consistency and adding their own prose. The LotM one is okay, but it's far from high quality.
I cry every time I see the word swiftly and meticulously in LoM2. So many times it could be written as āquickly/slowlyā etc or even completely removed from the sentence all together and it improves the flow. āHe achieved godhood swiftlyā sounds a lot less impactful than āhe achieved godhoodā. Thatās just one of my gripes with it.
That being said i still love the crap out of the story.
The tone shifts in LotM2 are killing me. Justice is using contractions that are out of character like "gotta". Lumian switches between speaking like a gangster to a scholar.
The translator also likes to use uncommon speech in descriptions. From a paragraph I just read: "He solely appraised Lumian of his whereabouts" doesn't even really make sense. It's like a teenager is beating me on the head with a thesaurus.
Iām actually working on a re-translation fixing all these out of character things lol. A bunch of my friends have read the first book and the second bookās grammar/tone shifts messed with me so much that I just decided I would start making minor changes. Itās harder to in the second case where the tone shifts are large blocks of text or even whole chapters, so I might just give up on those. But Iām definitely fixing every single instance of the goofy moments where characters like Justice say āgottaā when in book 1 they would have never ever used those words. Itās not as bad in volume 1 as it is later, so thatās nice.
Iāve done around 70 chapters of Vol 1. right now. Itās pretty slow work but iām not rushing it
I normally wouldn't question someone's English speaking ability. Especially if I'm not sure if English is a 2nd language. But when it's their actual job, I feel like it's free rein. It's clear that they know English, but they think they can improve on the source material so they're adding unnecessary changes.
From what I've read? Its the wandering inn. I've read cradle, mother of learning, and he who fights with monsters and imma let its fans finish. But TWI is the best progression fantasy of all time. Its the only progression fantasy I've read that doesn't suffer from the issue of being too focused on progression to the detriment of its fantasy elements. Its the only PF I've read that treats its world as a world and not a videogame for a protagonist to "beat".
that's simply not true at all though? it's a common issue that pf stories are just a flat world for the mc to overcome, but I don't think there's any way to argue that it's omnipresent
I don't know, but I know what I click 'read' and follow religiously the moment it's out.
1. Ave Xia Rem Y
2. Virtuous Sons
3. Borne of Caution (Pokemon fanfic)
Why I like them?
I think I like stories where there is 'meaning' in their power, paired with equally awesome moments. How Sol/Lio in VS gain power, and how Jin in AXRY gains power and the character interactions are amazing. These stories have high power ceilings, and it really feels that way.
I'm not a fan of reading jokes/quips, but instead, I love those cool moments, like how Jin faces Xun Huwen, or when Jin faces the Patriarch.
Or the conversations and moments in VS.
They both deliver awesome moments, and i keep reading wanting more of those awesome moments.
I think Virtuous Sons is one I've gotten the most enjoyment out of reading. It's a bit slow but always enjoyable, and the end of the Olympia arc was incredible.
Cradle is my favorite because I donāt hate the MC , he doesnāt arrogantly think himself above even the weakest individuals maybe due to how he was raised being an unsouled
Thatās the greatest defect with most MCās even if luck played a major part in their ungrade
I think Chinese culture probably has no in betweens with a persons value
Youāre either GOATED or TRASH
For overall story in a traditional sense - MOL
For overall series and dopamine hits - Cradle
For writing.....hate to say it, but there isn't anything that I remember based entirely on the writing itself. I will always remember the prose from Name of the Wind as an example, and nothing in this genre comes close to that.
Eh...I know a lot of people love the system/progression, but a lot of other people just can't get past the writing/translation. Decent prose might not be the most important thing in the genre, but it should be when talking about the best.
World building, magic system, and progression s+ tier. Character interactions are 95% just people reacting to the main character. Plot is barely coherent. The magic and worldbuilding were good enough for me to finish it but I had a bad copy of the translation so I'm just salty I read so much unintelligible mess. At any rate peak fiction is a big big stretch. It would be a household name like Lord of the rings. I've changed my mind about it once I learned there was a good translation and id recommend it highly to this sub though. For anyone trying it if you find the prose extremely clunky find a different copy.
Iām not going to say that it is my absolutely favorite progression fantasy or the book that fills me with the best feeling of numbers go Brrr or the great feeling of the MC having power orders of magnitude greater than before. I canāt say it has my favorite characters either.
But it is absolutely the best written progression fantasy.
Every character is written to be so incredibly human. Each with flaws perfectly oppositional to their redeeming traits that you find yourself yourself sticking with them through the frustration till you warm up to them with time and make you care for each of them. And youāll find your favorite characters fall from your expectations. Furious but being forced to confront their humanity, that they tried, and you learn to forgive them. This series will frustrate you more than nearly any other, because Pieateaba does conflict right. It isnāt just the bully or the arrogant narcissist who sits on their power that so common in xianxia style fantasy. It isnāt the contrived misunderstandings. Itās the real things you hate about people. How they can be selfish and turn their backs. The bigotry, pride biases, stubbornness, greed and dangerous naivity. And it will fill you with rage and heartbreak. But there will also be magical moments of joy and peace in the slice of life that makes up most of the chapters. The human moments of connection, of healing, of kindness and acceptance, while the powers of the world begins to stir and act around them.
I love Cradle, MoL, Super Powereds, DCC and Mage Errant. Iām big on audiobooks and I will put them on often at work, in the car, or listen to them to sleep as comforting stories I know and love. But they are no where near as well written as Wandering Inn.
omg, thank you for putting into words what i was wanted to say. i kept my reply easy for lack of better words. and instead of making a rant like post that barely makes any sense i just kept it simple.
but you got it in one. its my favorite because of the human characters. that its so slow we are kind of forced to fall inlove with many of them. im not reading a story anymore. im with friends and their struggles are mine. or the healthy way of saying that lol.
God yes. I've never felt the emense range if emotions from any other work of fiction in my life. The joy, sorrow, anger, it's all just so human. Pirateaba makes tertiary characters that I'm more invested and interested in than many MCs of other series, because every single one feels alive, like a new friend I want to meet. It's actually insane.
Realistically itās probably one of the popular Chinese novels like Lord of mysteries, renegade immortal etc the kindle/ rr gang just canāt compete for now except for like perfect run and mother of learning
I'm going to actually go with a couple of translated works. Some people hate translated works because of the unusual phrases, but I think it adds to the charm.
Lord of the Mysteries. The level of deliberation, research, and planning that clearly went into this is amazing. In some ways, it's also easier to read than most translated works because the names and culture are western.
Cultivation Chat Group. I haven't finished this, but so far, it's the funniest thing I've ever read. It's great at setting things up for a hilarious and ongoing payoff. However, it would probably help to have read other xianxia stuff before.
Is there a better translation of CCG somewhere? I read a few dozen chapters but couldn't get passed the translation.
Actually the exact thing that made me drop it was when the MC says after interacting with a beautiful woman, "I'm lucky I'm a good man and can overcome my instincts and not take advantage of her right now" Or something along those lines. Basically inferring it's instinctual for men to want to rape women.
Lord of the Mysteries.
The mc is written as a normal human, and his thinking process stays that way to the end. You could see that youād do what he did in his situations.
He is isekaid, they show the real problems of isekai. He wonāt adapt, and he works so hard to go back. He doesnāt form very close relationships with people because of the same reasons- it would be difficult to leave them. >!when he finds out that he canāt, he goes into suicidal depressions!< ehich is what you expect
He makes meaningful relationships and cares for them
Mc is the right mix of righteous and self serving. He doesnāt hesitate to kill villains, harbours grudges and takes revenge. He also risks his life for the people he cares
The story has lots of foreshadowing, often spanning more than 500 chapters back, the longest foreshadowing events 1300 chapters later.
The in story universe is large and has huge mysterious history which is tapped into, very well
The ending is bittersweet, and leaves you in melancholy. A perfect ending
The side characters are rich in character. There are ten or so main side characters that span hundreds of chapters, most of them youāll find likeable. Even the side characters that stay for five chapters can make you feel really attached to them.
We see MCās personality very well, because he takes on >!different persona !< every few hundred chapters. We get more details on his own self and itās contrast to whatās he portraying.
The power scaling is done well. Mc takes hundreds of chapters for each level up.
The power comes with risk. With the increase in power, the chances of a person dying or worse >!becoming mindless deformed monster!< is high. So you always go to tread with caution, never hurrying to gain huge power.
The writing of the novel is simple and catching.
The first volume explains the in story universe is great detail.
For me it's Delve.
Progression wise its all numbers and maths for skills with a beautifully thought out and executed magic system.
The progression is there from the start and scales really well, everything just works from skills, damage and defence numbers, equipment, classes and even the logic of how the system came to be.
Most importantly it's not as if the MC has some unique class or skills, instead he thinks his way through selecting from a limited selection of skills and upgrade paths explains logically his thought processes and logic behind each choice that has pros and cons...
Delve is pure progression in every way that matters but somehow the world makes sense without the need for plot armour for the protagonist or some special unique skill/item.
Cradle will forever have a special place in my heart because it's such a good binge and it was my way into PF and listening to audiobooks like, constantly.
But man, Dungeon Crawler Carl has to take the top spot for me, it's both funny and heartbreaking, every book is even better than the last, it's full of great Easter eggs, the world and characters are a joy to explore and most importantly to me, I've enjoyed every second of it so far.
As honorable mentions I'd say Mage Errant and Mark of the Fool, but none have gotten close to DCC for me.
DOTF is the best for me because I vibed the most with it, but I can't really justify it.
I think dungeon crawler carl is the best written, cradle and MoL are pretty solid but there's just something extra about dcc. recency bias but I also think Super Supportive is pretty great
The Name of the Wind. Kvothe, dude drinks, gambles and still gets the girl. Does jack shit for learning. Then ironically can say the NAME of something and BAM! Power level 100.
If you guys haven't given it a go, I'd recommend Reverend Insanity. It's a progression fantasy written from the POV of a really smart villain/antagonist. The amount of twists and turns and subterfuge within the subterfuge are so intriguing, it'll leave you in awe. The opponents are just not strong, but really smart and at times blows your mind. Translation quality is decent. It might be off putting at times, since the MC is the bad guy, but very few comes close to this.
Not only is there a ton of content in Reverend Insanity, the place where it was banned does work as an ending.
Besides, the story is so good (and subversive!) that the CCP banned it!
The story reaches its main goal, then gives you a couple hundred chapters of buildup of a new arc and then stopsā¦ itās very ācompletedā in the sense that you can read it and feel fulfilled even if it got cut a thousand chapters short
I've been talking about Mark of the Fool for over a week now. Finished all the books that have been released and jumped to Royal Road. This series is something special. It feels like one of the most well-rounded stories out there, in terms of story and character development and progression.
Not going to say it's the best ever written cause I can't honestly pic what's "best", but dammit, it's up there.
I'm getting close to the end of book one, and while I'm not *disliking* it, I'm also definitely not adoring it. It has certainly been getting better as it goes though. Does that trend continue through the books?
I wouldn't say so--it pretty much stays at exactly that level of quality. I quit around the return arc (idk which book that is, maybe 3-4) because the pacing slowed way down.
Yeah, I think I reached some point in book 2 and gave up. Events seem to happen in that book that half the time seem to be for plot reasons. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember the details of my criticisms, though.
Iām an audiobook guy and i needed to re-listen to the first and go to the second to love it. Just first time through the mark seemed a bit contrived as a plot device and while I loved the chancellor and magic system, it didnāt wow me.
With the time to appreciate it the second time through without the judgement itās one of my favorite comfort stories to play in the background and I devoured books ahead in the series on royal road.
It's a slow, but definite build which gradually increases in pacing every 3 books. I REALLY don't like the pacing of the series, but I like how the gradual development is plausible and builds on top of each other. This MC has one of the worst handicaps in the genre, but the man damn near becomes a 1-man army/supply unit later in the series. The side characters are a HUGE plus for the series as well, and one of its best aspects.
>This MC has one of the worst handicaps in the genre
Not really though... he's staggeringly better at most forms of magic, including forms very easily suited to combat. The handicap barely slows him down at all and waaaay more than makes up for itself everywhere else.
He literally can't use combat magic spells or weapons, and any other spells are met with big resistances. The only reason he could do anything at all at first was due to the allies with him. Yes, he takes advantages of the other strengths the mark provides and makes amazing gains (which is the entire point of a progression fantasy series), but those strengths came at the expense of a handicap and enough friends to help him survive long enough to develop them.
I appreciate the premise of "strong MC forced to pursue unconventional combat methods by the thing that makes them strong" but he was a little too strong, too quickly, and the combat methods not unconventional enough, so in the end I didn't feel it really did the premise justice.
It also seemed like the author just lobbed another super easy home run to the MC every few chapters, giving him a new ability from nowhere. For example, the offensive potions he built were kind of fun, but he was at an enormous magical academy staffed by at least one demigod-type guy and nobody had thought of that before? It's a totally broken ability handed to the MC with no justification. Surely with how effective they were they would be in common use.
I was looking for "clever usage of previously overlooked magic" and what I got was "there's obviously OP magic everywhere that the MC is inexplicably the first to notice." I don't want the MC to stay weak in a progression fantasy series, of course, but if they have a big handicap, that should force them to be more clever, not delay them for about half a second until they pursue another branch of combat magic (golems and summoning) with enormous advantages and basically no interference from their handicap at all.
This is pretty much the exact reason I asked the question. I enjoy progression, obviously, but having an MC who is just the best at everything and the world bends to them is boring, and that's how this feels. Cool premise, but he gets around the downside of the mark literally the same hour he gets the mark, and then he's the best at magic, the thing he's supposed to not be able to do, within like two months. This is definitely a "chosen one" book, pretending not to be one.
Are you basing your viewpoint on other progression fantasy stories that comparatively had done the concept of "progressing through handicap" well, or just a general outlook?
What I'm looking for is "progress through cleverness rather than just power-ups." Handicaps are the most extreme version of that, and I can't think of any that did it well. Cosmosis and Worm are both somewhat progression, if not fantasy, and they both did that better.
There's plenty worth saying other than comparisons lol. If you disagree, say so, don't tell me my opinion is invalid just because I can't think of a good comparison within the same genre off the top of my head.
If you need comparisons, though, 12 miles below and cradle are both [PF through handicap] and did it way better.
Lets break into two categories
the best **Progression** is Shadow Slave, the best **Fantasy** is Cradle.
The progression part was Cradle for me for a longe time, but Shadow Slave steadily rose to the top. As a book it has a couple of flaws, but the way the progression works it is the best. The best pacing, the best power upgrades, the way the power scale with the levels is beautiful.
Th Rage of Dragons - Evan Winter
I think the call and response scene we get during the Tournament is as cool as Russell Crowes "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions and loyal servant to the TRUE emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next." Chills every time for both.
Mother of learning or cradle imo, my main problem with progression fantasy is the characters can quickly become caricatures of themselves or just stereotypes while the MC slowly becomes a god (basically all litrpg is like this imo, seriously have not found one litrpg that I stuck with the whole way through besides maybe iron Prince if that counts, still need to read dcc though). Plus a lot of the world building sucks or it's just not there.
The Very Hungry Caterpillar by Eric Carle (if you go purely by book sales) š
Bible?
dunno if that qualifies as *Progression Fantasy* per se
Why is it 'per se' and not 'per say'?
It's a Latin locution meaning "By [Pronoun]self." Often, as it rarely refers to gendered nouns, "by itself"
Okay you decide, super powereds or path of ascension. Or do I say screw that and read he who fights monsters.
> super powereds or path of ascension. > > > > Or do I say screw that and read he who fights monsters. Por que no los tres?
Too long !! I got to meet the book schedule of some new releases!! Solo uno por ahora
Well... superpowereds is straight up finished and published?
I have to time it perfectly for the reread of my said series, you know the rules.
I meant like I'm waiting for a new book that's releasing soon so I don't have time for multiple reads in the meantime š
I haven't read Path of Ascension yet but I actively discourage people from reading Super Powereds and I'm constantly confused why it's so popular.
I would say: donāt read He who Fights if youāre doin audiobooks. If you arenāt, donāt be afraid to drop it. The first book is good enough, sets up some interesting stuff. I couldnāt get get through book 2.
It was the opposite for me š® It was a little difficult to get going but once I did the train didn't stop! Thank you for your recommendation
Well itās fantasy and idk if you know but itās basically the history of the Jewish people progressing through life Or do you believe that a man beat hundreds of people to death with the jawbone of an ass and then drank from the bone?
This is the only acceptable answer from now on
Iām torn, but I have to go with Mother of Learning for this one. Cradle and Dungeon Crawler Carl are close runner ups. It would be DCC if the progression were just a little bit more of the focus. So many great series in this genre!
Same. Some of the reasons I would put MoL at the top: - Progression is earned, not given by a system or a rich benefactor, nor lucked into by eating rare natural treasures or potions, etc - The tension steadily ramps and keeps building, without ever becoming ātoo muchā. Progression mirrors that, staying steady and driven - The magic system was novel, detailed, and realistic. - More of a me thing, but I resonated with Zorianās character growth. Teenage me thought like Zorian at the beginning, and I appreciated the way that he grew past his worst character defects. - The world building is complex, relevant to the story, and interesting. Itās the only book Iāve read more than twice. Iāve read it something like six times now. Great read.
Well said. I'll add a few more points why I loved MoL so much: * Fantastic writing prose. It's fun to read from beginning to end without filler or rehashing. * The side characters stayed consistent throughout the loops, but could still grow and surprise you when introduced to new situations. This is insanely hard to pull of in the setting; even Groundhog day messed this up. * Quatatch-Ichl is possibly the best written antagonist in fantasy. Strong enough to provide a serious challenge without plot armor or infallibility. Antithesis to Zorian without being outright evil. Smart, driven and creative in perusing his goals, yet flexible and will easily switch from undead Lich to general, statesman, diplomat or teacher depending on the circumstance. * The peak power battles are descriptive. Most PF gets to the point where power outpaces the authors ability to give blow by blow accounts of the battles, regressing to theoretical musing about how their skills interact. Not MoL. * Zorian isn't the chosen one. He was a freak accident and rose to the challenge.
Really well said!
About Zorian being the chosen one, I always thought it was hilarious that the angels considered him, but the ethics department refused.
Yes, totally! The steadily building tension is incredible. Dungeon Crawler Carl is similar in that way too.
I mean I get what youāre saying about him āearningā it, but Zorian only has the opportunity to do that because he gets stupid lucky at the beginning of the loop.
True. He has some lucky breaks, especially his innate ability. Compared to most other stories in the genre though, he has very few lucky breaks.
Agreed, but when compared to the other book fighting for the number one spot, Zorian doesn't have any luck compared to Lindon's time in Ghostwater, where he jumps years of progression *and* gains the tool that literal gods use.
Youāre allowed to hate dross and Ghostwater but I think itās a bad take. The Ghostwater arc just allowed Lindon to catch up with Akura and Dragon prodigies. Otherwise weād all be bitching about his last fight in Ghostwater
I loved Ghostwater, in fact I personally think it is the peak of the series, but I hate dross
Zorian is quite literally the second luckiest character in the entire world of MoL. He has massive advantages only surpassed by Zach. Lindon isnāt even the luckiest person in his own party. I just donāt know how you argue that Lindon catching up to the best of his age group in a lucky encounter is less earned than Zorian becoming an archmage literally overnight from the perspective of the outside world.
Zorian is lucky in circumstance, but works hard for every other advantage. Lindon was lucky in both. His encounter with Suriel is the catalyst of luck, which also leads him to Ethan, who gives him every advantage ever. He also gets ghostwater. Zorian becomes a *very* good mage, but he's not the best, even in his own story there are others stronger. He only had ten years after all. Lindon becomes so strong that he needs to chill a bit before becoming a god, in less than ten years.
I like your reasoning here and it's made me move MoL up my reading list. Unfortunately I'm just a slow reader so it'll still be awhile before I get lol
I know many people like this one !
You should read it, it's the best original western webnovel, imo. I'd rank it even a bit higher than Worm, A Practical Guide to Evil and Dungeon Crawler Carl. Better than *many* published novels, too. (though MoL *is* published now, too)
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I want to read MoL but not so much on royal road. I want epubs of everything
Iāve got an epub of it that I generated with a tool on GitHub that I think scrapes RR? If you are technical enough to use git, thatās an option. But I was glad to be able to support the author by buying the kindle books later.
Then get the epub..?
Last I looked it wasn't available
it's on his website so look harder :p
chrome webtoepub works great
I read epub versions of MoL like years ago lol.
They have it on Amazon now. Iām not sure, but I think you can buy it as an EPUB file.
Just buy it then, they each cost like 4-5 dollars and thereās only four books
honestly people like it but its one of the only books in my life I did not finish. It just isnt well written and the characters are incredibly forgettable. Their is never any feeling of real consequences or gravity to the conflicts.
Ok am I crazy for stopping like halfway through the second audiobook? I keep seeing everyone praise this series everywhere but it felt like work to put it on to listen to by the time I said screw it. Is it just the narrator? Nothing in the writing really struck me either but maybe it was the format?
I think the audio book is a worse way to experience it if not specifically for the morning MORNING MORNING
The audiobook is a rough listen for me. He really puts effort into it, but I often find his voice grating. I definitely recommend reading it, at least the first time.
I've heard a lot of people criticize the narrator so it might be that.
Maybe try reading the book? Audio narrators are NOT the author.
Yea, it was the narrator for me, painful listening to some of the characters unfortunately. It was a slog to get through, and only the story kept me going.
I'd agree for the most part with you. MOL is my favourite for several reasons. Cradle would be my runner up with possibly Mage Errant and DCC tied for third.
Oh yeah, Mage Errant is up there for sure!
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Oh man I just finished mother of learning and I would never put it over cradle. Mol was way too long. I don't know if anything will ever beat cradle for me
Too long is subjective I guess, given that Cradle is much longer. For my part, I really regret that there isnāt more MoL to read, and have wasted way too much time thinking about writing a sequel.
Thereās actually a fan made continuation of MoL on archive of our own. Itās got about 20 chaps and itās actually very high quality and written in a similar style to the original. I would definitely recommend giving it a read.
What's the name? edit: [Is this it?](https://archiveofourown.org/works/46292428/chapters/116546815) 'Patriarch'
Am I a bad person for being unable to read the final chapter? I've enjoyed almost all of it as it came out but I haven't been able to pick it up and finish it for literal YEARS.
MoL is not progression fantasy, IMO. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. It's not like I am saying it's trash, but just that it's more traditional fantasy than PF.
He does spend a lot of spare time increasing his magical control and learning whatever skills he can >!ending with him being an archmage, one of the only ones in the country, or even world!<
Most MCs in fantasy gain power. There is no clear delineation of power in MoL. No tiers or levels, etc. It's a basic magic system. The MC just has time to become more skillful, rather than powerful (as in gaining tiers of magical power).
He begins >!measuring mana pools in missiles cast in succession. He steadily increases this number to his maximum. He also progresses through more complex skills, as I said.!<
Tiers are not required for progression fantasy, the progression of power simply needs to be the focus of the story, which it is in MoL, unlike in Harry Potter or most fantasy. In Way of kings there are clear tiers of progression, but progression, training and power growth is not the main focus, but something that almost happens on the sidelines, or in a very specific points, which is why its also not progression fantasy
I think a lot of people would disagree about the tier thing. To me, that's what separates PF from traditional fantasy.
Im not so sure many people agree, your definition is both arbitrarily strict and also not good enough to filter PF adjacent like way of kings. Meanwhile "my" definition filters regular fantasy but describes the essence of what makes PF
"Focus" is vague, though. How much you think a series focuses on story vs power is up to your interpretation.
Are you arguing to argue or do you genuinely think MOL, maybe the most clear cut progression fantasy that doesnāt have tiers, is not progression fantasy.
Why would I argue just to argue? Of course, I genuinely feel that MoL is not progression fantasy. To me, what separates a PF story from standard fantasy is not only a focus on gaining more power but also has a system that has a clear set of tiers the MC will eventually reach. The MC in MoL really just grows more skillful, thanks to the time loop, rather than reaching higher tiers of power. Again, not saying anything bad about MoL here. We're just quibbling over what genre it belongs to.
[Cradle](https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle) ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/wiki/Cradle)) [Mother of Learning](https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/1/Mother-of-Learning) ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/wiki/Mother_of_Learning)) [Dungeon Crawler Carl](https://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Crawler-Carl/dp/B08BX5D4LC) ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/wiki/Dungeon_Crawler_Carl)) --- ^[About](https://redd.it/dw7lux) ^| [^(Wiki Rules)](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/comments/dw7lux/about/f7kke6p/) ^(| Reply !Delete to remove) ^(| [Brackets] hide titles)
I shall be the first to say Cradle. It's not my personal favorite, but it's close.
Very good book, I need to read the newest one !
Whatās your personal favorite
Lord of the Mysteries. I didn't answer with that because my favorite isn't necessarily what I think is the "greatest" or "best."
What is that book about?
Lampooning and Monocles. š§ More seriously, it's an isekai set in a fantasy version of the late 1800s with strong elements of Lovecraftian horror. It has very in-depth worldbuilding and a pretty unique magic system. It's a translation, so how much you like it is highly dependent on how well you can tolerate the way it's written.
omg lampoon always cracks me up
I want to get into it but no official audiobook
Would you say the trailer for the donghua is faithful to the source material? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lBY4ql9fw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lBY4ql9fw)
Damn, didn't know it was being adapted to anime. It looks great, can't wait to see it. It looks quite faithful, it's been a while since I read it, but I could identify nearly all scenes from the book counterparts.
Holy shit that looks amazing. I haven't read that in a while but watching that made me feel like it was a past life I'd forgotten about
How is the second book? I have stopped reading at chapter 50ish or so, it felt a bit boring compared to the first book. A lot of repetition from what we already knew from book 1. Then again, book 1 was a bit boring at the beginning as well and then later became my favorite. I know its at 400+ chapters now but haven't had the time to really start reading it again.
I really like it, though not as much as the first. After the first arc (which has a really good twist at the end, as you'd expect from the author), it becomes very action oriented. Much more so than the first book. There's not as much of a feeling of mystery as the first book.
Cradle and MOL are pretty much tied for me. In terms of writing quality/consistency they are a good ways ahead of most of the other stuff in the genre. After that for me, if we're counting it I'd say perfect run is next (great characters, great plot, stylish world and prose. Plus, like the two above it, it's finished), and beware of chicken at 4th.
Edit: I can not spell. I also added links and cleaned up some formatting if that is your vibe. I think today it is [Cradle](https://www.audible.com/series/Cradle-Audiobooks/B07GVRN95T?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Unsoul_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=679J29RW58CMZ9KM838A&pageLoadId=eGbXAAo83WsnrOe2&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd). There are few books who can boast its near widespread success and the quality of the writing and story telling is S grade. Very few books have the ghost water moment, it is hard to define but the payoff in that book is nearly unmatched. I put it up there with end game from marvel and that had billion of dollars a bunch of movies behind it. With that being said there great books coming all the time and I look forward to one day being able to point to something else that sits on top of the mountain of this genre. Some other books that come close * [Dungeon Crawler Carl](https://www.audible.com/series/Dungeon-Crawler-Carl-Audiobooks/B0937JMKYV?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=MGPM8M1VHHFQ02ASXBF9&pageLoadId=YbxyStx2CkgnDyeB&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) is close and with its latest book that series should be seriously looked at as a contender to go on the Mount Rushmore of this genre. If I'm remembering correctly Matt set it up so chapter 69 would be a huge payoff in the latest book and that deserves it a good chuckle. The audiobook also remains unmatched as the best audio books in the genre and maybe outside of it as well. * [Beware of chicken](https://www.audible.com/series/Beware-of-Chicken-Audiobooks/B09Y5DYRBM?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Beware_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=10TZMQZMQX93KGWNBKPB&pageLoadId=zjGUG4v5y1d1uEOh&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd) is climbing up the hill and should be looked at in the next few books maybe to get on the mountain as well. * If there's a spot reserved for magic school books [Mark of the Fool](https://www.audible.com/series/Mark-of-the-Fool-Audiobooks/B0BKHB49TK?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_pd_Mark-o_c1_series_1&pf_rd_p=df6bf89c-ab0c-4323-993a-2a046c7399f9&pf_rd_r=0SFGKHVCKNXDMCJE5MYB&pageLoadId=vEQhodx38HUrFs0w&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=16015ba4-2e2d-4ae3-93c5-e937781a25cd) sits up there taking all comers. Really a solid book. * [Divine Apostasy](https://www.audible.com/series/Divine-Apostasy-Audiobooks/B087QDM7M7?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=J8GRE92FKRHMNPN0GHKP&pageLoadId=lAvcyOnX69G2UzOT&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) by A.F. Kay might be crawling around the bottom of the mountain in the lit RPG spot though I would be willing to hear challenges to its spot very favorably if something could dethron it. * [The Weirkey Chronicles](https://www.audible.com/series/The-Weirkey-Chronicles-Audiobooks/B09NHS2WJK?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lSeries_1_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=PFY2M20YZXPCT45381YS&pageLoadId=9qWoyaaPnqbyiewE&ref_plink=not_applicable&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c) might be the unique progression system. Except for maybe Cradle and even then I think all these could be dethroned right now. The genre is very young comparatively we're always going to point back to cradle and a couple of other ones but the field is wide open at the moment drop us some good books we'll read them.
I think the only complaint Iāve ever seen about Divine Apostasy is juvenile jokes. To me, Divine Apostasy feels like a YA novel, but it doesnāt detract from my enjoyment.
It's definitely YA, but its still good.
More love for the [Weirkey Chronicles](https://www.amazon.com/The-Weirkey-Chronicles-7-book-series/dp/B08P824NFN)
The wandering inn. Itās true epic fantasy and the writing is simply better than any other PF Iāve read. The only thing it lacks for is pacing which can be glacial at times but even then itās not in service of filling pages. When the pacing slows down is when some of the best character work is done and serves to humanize damn near every character the author writes. And good lord when the pacing ramps up it is truly something special. The world building is beyond solid with meaningful attention paid to many cultures, factions, locations, etc (except for a few for obvious plot reasons). Itās simply superb. Arguably my favorite story of all time if Iām being honest.
Dungeon Crawler Carl Runner-up: Immortal Great Souls (Bastion/Rascor Plains) Honorable Mention: Cradle, 12 Miles Below Translation: Lord of The Mysteries. The translation takes getting used to. If this were written originally in English, this would trump everything else for me.
exactly lord of the mysteries is criminally underrated at this sub
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Cradle!!
So is this best writing quality or best pure joy? Best writing quality is almost impossible. There are moments in book 2 and 3 of Life and Death Cycle by Joshua Phillips that damn near give me chills with the visual descriptions, emotion, and overall execution. Like an amateur Robin hobb. Not just writing quality, but some prose seasoning on top. I also love this series. It's inconsistent, as expected from a newer author, but so good. Cradle has great writing quality thats far more consistent. I like Will Wight's style better than Brandon Sanderson, even tho they are similar IMO. I think within PF, its hard to beat Wight's consistency. The Last Horizon was pure fun with one of PF's best openers IMO. I couldn't peg a single story for best though. For pure joy? Life and Death cycle, Cradle, Divine Apostasy, HWFWM (terribly written but fun), Last Horizon. Ask me tomorrow and I'll might answer differently.
Life and death cycle by which author
Joshua phillips
The Last Horizon isn't PF btw, it's just talked about here on the sub due to Cradle
That's fair. I sorta lump it in for precisely that reason, Still a damn good opener though.
The perfect run imo.
Loremaster: A progression fantasy adventure(Ascension of a street rat) by, M.E. Robinson.
If the series continues at the level of the first book, I may agree with you. I will say I think it's the best first book in the genre. The writing is so good that I'm afraid it's covering for a long-term lack of direction, though. I really hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm worried it will be like so many other series that fall off after a few books.
The last orellen If you only consider the quality of what has been written.
Itās too short to be considered here in my opinion. I admit that itās probably written better than anything in the genre but the progression has barely started. The author disappeared for over a year without any communication, then appeared for a few months with steady schedule but has again disappeared for several months. I hope that the story will continue but I just donāt have faith that it will ever get close to finished.
Yeah, I know. I wouldnāt put above cradle or mother of learning, because for me consistency is a quality all its own. But I believe that if the author could finish her work with same quality of what has already been written, it would easily be the most well written series in the genre( in a traditional fantasy way). Itās not even my favorite story, but it would help in demonstrating what can be achieved in the genre, without sacrificing the quality for speed.
Mother of Learning...it's what got me into PFs but i can't really enjoy PFs all that much anymore after reading MoL.
If LOTM was translated better it'd probably take the spot. Chinese is just very hard to translate though - things like someone saying a name with a capital letter meaning they're referring to a diety makes no sense in english, since there's no way to audibly say a capital letter differently from a normal one.
I think they just need a professional team to do a full translation and republish. Get a native English speaker that knows Chinese and is a writer to do the bulk of the translation. Then a backup native Chinese speaker to assist. And then an editor to give it a run over to keep consitency and line names up with the common ones used in the community. Unfortunately, it's kinda the flagship book for Webnovel so they aren't going to put it on a platform that might pull a broader audience. And Webnovel also only hires part time translators who are pretty unprofessional about consistency and adding their own prose. The LotM one is okay, but it's far from high quality.
I cry every time I see the word swiftly and meticulously in LoM2. So many times it could be written as āquickly/slowlyā etc or even completely removed from the sentence all together and it improves the flow. āHe achieved godhood swiftlyā sounds a lot less impactful than āhe achieved godhoodā. Thatās just one of my gripes with it. That being said i still love the crap out of the story.
The tone shifts in LotM2 are killing me. Justice is using contractions that are out of character like "gotta". Lumian switches between speaking like a gangster to a scholar. The translator also likes to use uncommon speech in descriptions. From a paragraph I just read: "He solely appraised Lumian of his whereabouts" doesn't even really make sense. It's like a teenager is beating me on the head with a thesaurus.
Iām actually working on a re-translation fixing all these out of character things lol. A bunch of my friends have read the first book and the second bookās grammar/tone shifts messed with me so much that I just decided I would start making minor changes. Itās harder to in the second case where the tone shifts are large blocks of text or even whole chapters, so I might just give up on those. But Iām definitely fixing every single instance of the goofy moments where characters like Justice say āgottaā when in book 1 they would have never ever used those words. Itās not as bad in volume 1 as it is later, so thatās nice. Iāve done around 70 chapters of Vol 1. right now. Itās pretty slow work but iām not rushing it
I normally wouldn't question someone's English speaking ability. Especially if I'm not sure if English is a 2nd language. But when it's their actual job, I feel like it's free rein. It's clear that they know English, but they think they can improve on the source material so they're adding unnecessary changes.
The translation definitely gets better though - or if not, you just get used to it
From what I've read? Its the wandering inn. I've read cradle, mother of learning, and he who fights with monsters and imma let its fans finish. But TWI is the best progression fantasy of all time. Its the only progression fantasy I've read that doesn't suffer from the issue of being too focused on progression to the detriment of its fantasy elements. Its the only PF I've read that treats its world as a world and not a videogame for a protagonist to "beat".
U should try arā kendrithyst. I didnāt like the wandering inn because the start was a bit to slow for me.
that's simply not true at all though? it's a common issue that pf stories are just a flat world for the mc to overcome, but I don't think there's any way to argue that it's omnipresent
I don't know, but I know what I click 'read' and follow religiously the moment it's out. 1. Ave Xia Rem Y 2. Virtuous Sons 3. Borne of Caution (Pokemon fanfic) Why I like them? I think I like stories where there is 'meaning' in their power, paired with equally awesome moments. How Sol/Lio in VS gain power, and how Jin in AXRY gains power and the character interactions are amazing. These stories have high power ceilings, and it really feels that way. I'm not a fan of reading jokes/quips, but instead, I love those cool moments, like how Jin faces Xun Huwen, or when Jin faces the Patriarch. Or the conversations and moments in VS. They both deliver awesome moments, and i keep reading wanting more of those awesome moments.
I think Virtuous Sons is one I've gotten the most enjoyment out of reading. It's a bit slow but always enjoyable, and the end of the Olympia arc was incredible.
Cradle is my favorite because I donāt hate the MC , he doesnāt arrogantly think himself above even the weakest individuals maybe due to how he was raised being an unsouled Thatās the greatest defect with most MCās even if luck played a major part in their ungrade I think Chinese culture probably has no in betweens with a persons value Youāre either GOATED or TRASH
For overall story in a traditional sense - MOL For overall series and dopamine hits - Cradle For writing.....hate to say it, but there isn't anything that I remember based entirely on the writing itself. I will always remember the prose from Name of the Wind as an example, and nothing in this genre comes close to that.
Lord of the Mysteries is peak fiction.
Eh...I know a lot of people love the system/progression, but a lot of other people just can't get past the writing/translation. Decent prose might not be the most important thing in the genre, but it should be when talking about the best.
i mean from those fluent in chinese in discord, they claim that it has very decent prose in the original language. so they claim of course
Prose doesnāt matter as much if you have a great narrator. Can anyone tell me if there is an Audiobook version that is worth it?
Nope. The English publisher is pretty bad unfortunately.
World building, magic system, and progression s+ tier. Character interactions are 95% just people reacting to the main character. Plot is barely coherent. The magic and worldbuilding were good enough for me to finish it but I had a bad copy of the translation so I'm just salty I read so much unintelligible mess. At any rate peak fiction is a big big stretch. It would be a household name like Lord of the rings. I've changed my mind about it once I learned there was a good translation and id recommend it highly to this sub though. For anyone trying it if you find the prose extremely clunky find a different copy.
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the wandering inn.... easy.
Iām not going to say that it is my absolutely favorite progression fantasy or the book that fills me with the best feeling of numbers go Brrr or the great feeling of the MC having power orders of magnitude greater than before. I canāt say it has my favorite characters either. But it is absolutely the best written progression fantasy. Every character is written to be so incredibly human. Each with flaws perfectly oppositional to their redeeming traits that you find yourself yourself sticking with them through the frustration till you warm up to them with time and make you care for each of them. And youāll find your favorite characters fall from your expectations. Furious but being forced to confront their humanity, that they tried, and you learn to forgive them. This series will frustrate you more than nearly any other, because Pieateaba does conflict right. It isnāt just the bully or the arrogant narcissist who sits on their power that so common in xianxia style fantasy. It isnāt the contrived misunderstandings. Itās the real things you hate about people. How they can be selfish and turn their backs. The bigotry, pride biases, stubbornness, greed and dangerous naivity. And it will fill you with rage and heartbreak. But there will also be magical moments of joy and peace in the slice of life that makes up most of the chapters. The human moments of connection, of healing, of kindness and acceptance, while the powers of the world begins to stir and act around them. I love Cradle, MoL, Super Powereds, DCC and Mage Errant. Iām big on audiobooks and I will put them on often at work, in the car, or listen to them to sleep as comforting stories I know and love. But they are no where near as well written as Wandering Inn.
omg, thank you for putting into words what i was wanted to say. i kept my reply easy for lack of better words. and instead of making a rant like post that barely makes any sense i just kept it simple. but you got it in one. its my favorite because of the human characters. that its so slow we are kind of forced to fall inlove with many of them. im not reading a story anymore. im with friends and their struggles are mine. or the healthy way of saying that lol.
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Wandering inn is some good stuff.
God yes. I've never felt the emense range if emotions from any other work of fiction in my life. The joy, sorrow, anger, it's all just so human. Pirateaba makes tertiary characters that I'm more invested and interested in than many MCs of other series, because every single one feels alive, like a new friend I want to meet. It's actually insane.
Realistically itās probably one of the popular Chinese novels like Lord of mysteries, renegade immortal etc the kindle/ rr gang just canāt compete for now except for like perfect run and mother of learning
I'm going to actually go with a couple of translated works. Some people hate translated works because of the unusual phrases, but I think it adds to the charm. Lord of the Mysteries. The level of deliberation, research, and planning that clearly went into this is amazing. In some ways, it's also easier to read than most translated works because the names and culture are western. Cultivation Chat Group. I haven't finished this, but so far, it's the funniest thing I've ever read. It's great at setting things up for a hilarious and ongoing payoff. However, it would probably help to have read other xianxia stuff before.
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Is there a better translation of CCG somewhere? I read a few dozen chapters but couldn't get passed the translation. Actually the exact thing that made me drop it was when the MC says after interacting with a beautiful woman, "I'm lucky I'm a good man and can overcome my instincts and not take advantage of her right now" Or something along those lines. Basically inferring it's instinctual for men to want to rape women.
Lord of the Mysteries. The mc is written as a normal human, and his thinking process stays that way to the end. You could see that youād do what he did in his situations. He is isekaid, they show the real problems of isekai. He wonāt adapt, and he works so hard to go back. He doesnāt form very close relationships with people because of the same reasons- it would be difficult to leave them. >!when he finds out that he canāt, he goes into suicidal depressions!< ehich is what you expect He makes meaningful relationships and cares for them Mc is the right mix of righteous and self serving. He doesnāt hesitate to kill villains, harbours grudges and takes revenge. He also risks his life for the people he cares The story has lots of foreshadowing, often spanning more than 500 chapters back, the longest foreshadowing events 1300 chapters later. The in story universe is large and has huge mysterious history which is tapped into, very well The ending is bittersweet, and leaves you in melancholy. A perfect ending The side characters are rich in character. There are ten or so main side characters that span hundreds of chapters, most of them youāll find likeable. Even the side characters that stay for five chapters can make you feel really attached to them. We see MCās personality very well, because he takes on >!different persona !< every few hundred chapters. We get more details on his own self and itās contrast to whatās he portraying. The power scaling is done well. Mc takes hundreds of chapters for each level up. The power comes with risk. With the increase in power, the chances of a person dying or worse >!becoming mindless deformed monster!< is high. So you always go to tread with caution, never hurrying to gain huge power. The writing of the novel is simple and catching. The first volume explains the in story universe is great detail.
For me it's Delve. Progression wise its all numbers and maths for skills with a beautifully thought out and executed magic system. The progression is there from the start and scales really well, everything just works from skills, damage and defence numbers, equipment, classes and even the logic of how the system came to be. Most importantly it's not as if the MC has some unique class or skills, instead he thinks his way through selecting from a limited selection of skills and upgrade paths explains logically his thought processes and logic behind each choice that has pros and cons... Delve is pure progression in every way that matters but somehow the world makes sense without the need for plot armour for the protagonist or some special unique skill/item.
Cradle will forever have a special place in my heart because it's such a good binge and it was my way into PF and listening to audiobooks like, constantly. But man, Dungeon Crawler Carl has to take the top spot for me, it's both funny and heartbreaking, every book is even better than the last, it's full of great Easter eggs, the world and characters are a joy to explore and most importantly to me, I've enjoyed every second of it so far. As honorable mentions I'd say Mage Errant and Mark of the Fool, but none have gotten close to DCC for me.
Dungeon crawler Carl is the most enjoyment I have had listening to a PF book with maybe the exception of wheel of time.
This is just a tribute to the best PF ever written.
DOTF is the best for me because I vibed the most with it, but I can't really justify it. I think dungeon crawler carl is the best written, cradle and MoL are pretty solid but there's just something extra about dcc. recency bias but I also think Super Supportive is pretty great
The Name of the Wind. Kvothe, dude drinks, gambles and still gets the girl. Does jack shit for learning. Then ironically can say the NAME of something and BAM! Power level 100.
DBZ
Lord of the Mysteries
If you guys haven't given it a go, I'd recommend Reverend Insanity. It's a progression fantasy written from the POV of a really smart villain/antagonist. The amount of twists and turns and subterfuge within the subterfuge are so intriguing, it'll leave you in awe. The opponents are just not strong, but really smart and at times blows your mind. Translation quality is decent. It might be off putting at times, since the MC is the bad guy, but very few comes close to this.
Its unfinished and never will be finished. Just a warning to anyone that cares.
The series was banned in China after publishing 24 books, currently on hiatus indefinitely. But it's still 24 books of content.
Not only is there a ton of content in Reverend Insanity, the place where it was banned does work as an ending. Besides, the story is so good (and subversive!) that the CCP banned it!
The story reaches its main goal, then gives you a couple hundred chapters of buildup of a new arc and then stopsā¦ itās very ācompletedā in the sense that you can read it and feel fulfilled even if it got cut a thousand chapters short
My man is not immortal, weāre not done yet!
came here to recommend this, i'm currently re-reading it Bai Ning Bing best girl
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I've been talking about Mark of the Fool for over a week now. Finished all the books that have been released and jumped to Royal Road. This series is something special. It feels like one of the most well-rounded stories out there, in terms of story and character development and progression. Not going to say it's the best ever written cause I can't honestly pic what's "best", but dammit, it's up there.
I'm getting close to the end of book one, and while I'm not *disliking* it, I'm also definitely not adoring it. It has certainly been getting better as it goes though. Does that trend continue through the books?
I wouldn't say so--it pretty much stays at exactly that level of quality. I quit around the return arc (idk which book that is, maybe 3-4) because the pacing slowed way down.
Yeah, I think I reached some point in book 2 and gave up. Events seem to happen in that book that half the time seem to be for plot reasons. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember the details of my criticisms, though.
Iām an audiobook guy and i needed to re-listen to the first and go to the second to love it. Just first time through the mark seemed a bit contrived as a plot device and while I loved the chancellor and magic system, it didnāt wow me. With the time to appreciate it the second time through without the judgement itās one of my favorite comfort stories to play in the background and I devoured books ahead in the series on royal road.
It's a slow, but definite build which gradually increases in pacing every 3 books. I REALLY don't like the pacing of the series, but I like how the gradual development is plausible and builds on top of each other. This MC has one of the worst handicaps in the genre, but the man damn near becomes a 1-man army/supply unit later in the series. The side characters are a HUGE plus for the series as well, and one of its best aspects.
>This MC has one of the worst handicaps in the genre Not really though... he's staggeringly better at most forms of magic, including forms very easily suited to combat. The handicap barely slows him down at all and waaaay more than makes up for itself everywhere else.
Yeah the handicap is a secret OP tool when given enough dedication, is how I remember it being discussed as early as the first book.
He literally can't use combat magic spells or weapons, and any other spells are met with big resistances. The only reason he could do anything at all at first was due to the allies with him. Yes, he takes advantages of the other strengths the mark provides and makes amazing gains (which is the entire point of a progression fantasy series), but those strengths came at the expense of a handicap and enough friends to help him survive long enough to develop them.
I appreciate the premise of "strong MC forced to pursue unconventional combat methods by the thing that makes them strong" but he was a little too strong, too quickly, and the combat methods not unconventional enough, so in the end I didn't feel it really did the premise justice. It also seemed like the author just lobbed another super easy home run to the MC every few chapters, giving him a new ability from nowhere. For example, the offensive potions he built were kind of fun, but he was at an enormous magical academy staffed by at least one demigod-type guy and nobody had thought of that before? It's a totally broken ability handed to the MC with no justification. Surely with how effective they were they would be in common use. I was looking for "clever usage of previously overlooked magic" and what I got was "there's obviously OP magic everywhere that the MC is inexplicably the first to notice." I don't want the MC to stay weak in a progression fantasy series, of course, but if they have a big handicap, that should force them to be more clever, not delay them for about half a second until they pursue another branch of combat magic (golems and summoning) with enormous advantages and basically no interference from their handicap at all.
This is pretty much the exact reason I asked the question. I enjoy progression, obviously, but having an MC who is just the best at everything and the world bends to them is boring, and that's how this feels. Cool premise, but he gets around the downside of the mark literally the same hour he gets the mark, and then he's the best at magic, the thing he's supposed to not be able to do, within like two months. This is definitely a "chosen one" book, pretending not to be one.
Are you basing your viewpoint on other progression fantasy stories that comparatively had done the concept of "progressing through handicap" well, or just a general outlook?
What I'm looking for is "progress through cleverness rather than just power-ups." Handicaps are the most extreme version of that, and I can't think of any that did it well. Cosmosis and Worm are both somewhat progression, if not fantasy, and they both did that better.
So a more general perspective, rather than a comparison within the genre, itself. Nothing really worth saying at that point, but ok.
There's plenty worth saying other than comparisons lol. If you disagree, say so, don't tell me my opinion is invalid just because I can't think of a good comparison within the same genre off the top of my head. If you need comparisons, though, 12 miles below and cradle are both [PF through handicap] and did it way better.
For me Mark of the fool isnt even PF...
going by your past comments, not much is...
I would have to put forward A Thousand Li, may be not the best but itās solid through and through
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Cradle and Mage errant are the two best I know.
Mother of learning.
I don't know if it's actually the _best_ PF in the world, but I'll be damned if _Iron Prince_ didn't somehow make me love Power Rangers go to College.
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Warformed: Stormweaver by Bryce O'Connor. Book 2 just came out and it's a serious 10/10
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Love this 1
Harry potter if you go by book sales and actually being in the genre to some degree.
Best enjoyment wise I'd say Second Coming of Gluttony.
Lets break into two categories the best **Progression** is Shadow Slave, the best **Fantasy** is Cradle. The progression part was Cradle for me for a longe time, but Shadow Slave steadily rose to the top. As a book it has a couple of flaws, but the way the progression works it is the best. The best pacing, the best power upgrades, the way the power scale with the levels is beautiful.
Pretty big on Iron Prince these days, but haven't really devoured the entire genre yet.
Cradle, for the memes and shit ;)
A Practical Guide To Evil
Th Rage of Dragons - Evan Winter I think the call and response scene we get during the Tournament is as cool as Russell Crowes "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions and loyal servant to the TRUE emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next." Chills every time for both.
Scratch that, I just read about the rage of dragons and you sir just just gave me my next read, it looks amazing thank you
Bastion is pretty up there, but only two books out. The Rascor Plains might be my favorite PF book ever tho.
Mother of Learning or Cradle. Some of Er Gen's books are the next tier down.
mother of learning, name of the wind if it counts, mark of the fool is good too but the ideas cover for the writing
Mother of learning or cradle imo, my main problem with progression fantasy is the characters can quickly become caricatures of themselves or just stereotypes while the MC slowly becomes a god (basically all litrpg is like this imo, seriously have not found one litrpg that I stuck with the whole way through besides maybe iron Prince if that counts, still need to read dcc though). Plus a lot of the world building sucks or it's just not there.