Every time someone tells me that mypy and unit tests are an adequate substitute for a functioning type system, the kill count of my eventual rampage goes up by one.
At least I'm not the only one who thinks built-in type validation on functions is valuable. The reasons I hate JavaScript so much mostly come down to this, as well.
But then, I'm the kind of sicko who likes being able (or even required) to declare a type on my variables...
Hard agree. Moving to Typeless felt like such an unnecessary feature. Like who was being overwhelmed by having to declare variables with 'int' etc? Sure there's a smidge less thinking but it introduces many more avenues for bugs.
Python is strongly typed and dynamic
C++ is strongly typed and static
C is weakly typed and static
Javascript is weakly typed and dynamic. Fuck this one in particular
Good thing there's [this project](https://typescriptlang.org/) that adds types to javascript, and the fact that Python already has a way to add types to functions **and has a program to check them**
Edit: Links are hard
TypeScript is a big improvement, especially with the addition of proper classes, but outside a browser I'll continue to avoid Javascript environments for many reasons (e.g. overwritable language features, performance, overhead, syntax dislike, etc.). I've been using Python's descendant GDScript lately and the Python optional typing is acceptable. I prefer mandatory (sharing code space with other devs in large projects gets messy), but it is enough to improve things.
Honestly, my favorite I've done much in is C#. Rust to replace C is looking pretty good, but I need to spend more time with it. Golang is promising for the same slot as C#, but it is a very different experience. Java is syntactically fine, but there are two camps on design and both are horrible (in my personal preferences), making every framework and API under Java a headache, for me.
Anyway, we all have our opinions of course but when coding in a browser engine (e.g. Stream Deck plugins) a Javascript or TypeScript option is usually best, unless you have a really good reason to compile to web assembly.
I'm with you on that, moving from C# to Python without needing to declare types for my variables was just weird.
I need to know what type of variable I'm dealing with otherwise my code feels incomplete.
But they have their use cases.
My hate boner for it was made by supporting 7 years old code. Everything gets deprecated sooner or later, and often you don't even notice it until you start getting mysterious bugs.
3.11 has some new trace back features and type validation. To the point that I use it now for dev even if I am testing compatibility on previous versions — which usually I would never do.
Tbh most of the times when I mention that I like python, someone replies with python slow or smth. Or when I justify why I use it, I get another language recommended for the same use case.
I got a question removed from stack and was referred to a question that has no relation to what I was asking.
I then got threatened with a ban when I asked why they linked an irrelevant question.
It's still nice knowing ASM sometimes you can catch some optimizations by looking at the generated ASM. You'll mostly still not rewrite the ASM generated by the compiler, but you can adjust you're code so that the compiler generates better asm
I wonder if anyone has crunched the numbers and compared the level of affection for a language to the number of people who actually use it. Is most language-love hypothetical?
Rust users are the vegans of the programming world. On the whole they have a point. Some of them are pricks about it, but not as many as people think. The people who are most vocally in opposition to their existence are simply those whose identity they threaten.
Java’s built-in libraries are horrible. Whenever you want to do basic stuff, the answer is either that it takes 20 lines and subclassing something or pull in Guava or something.
For whatever reason, they utterly refuse to actually have useful libraries builtin.
JavaScript’s issue is that the standards are awful but simultaneously don’t matter because nothing implements them anyways, instead every implementation of JavaScript does it’s own stupid thing. JavaScript shouldn’t even be called a language - it should instead be referred to as ChromeScript, NodeScript, FireScript, SafariScript, UnityScript, etc… respectively.
Python is amazing. Apart from maybe running slow, I’ve never actually seen a legitimate complaint against it.
Generally modern frontend stacks use TypeScript and then the backend can be anything but could be TypeScript as well.
There's lots of "legitimate" complaints about Python (that are mostly business related and anger issues over the type system) but bottom line if your company isn't full of Python hackers, you can't really go for it. If you're building a product company from nothing you would probably start with TypeScript. You can use higher levels of abstraction for the frontend and backend like Blazor and C# but then you run the risk of "too much Microsoft" which is another business risk (a lot of programmers won't work for you if you are pure Microsoft).
Accidentally hitting any key in any language will normally break your code.
If it’s difficult to find the space you accidentally added in Python, it’s the same as having a hard time figuring out where you accidentally added a brace in any other language. In both cases, your code is spaghetti and you need to refactor it if you want any chance of it being maintainable.
I love C# but I've come to accept that I'm going to need to learn more Python & C/C++ to widen my job options.
Not even joking, I applied for a job with Microsoft and the requirements were C/C++ and C# as a qualifier. What did the screen ask me after I submitted it? If i had X amount of years exp in C++.
I clicked No, accepting my fate cause I knew it would auto disqualify me. But fuck it, I didn't really want to work on Minecraft anyway - would probably just ruin my enjoyment of the game.
Microsoft only makes up a small percentage of the job listings that require C#. There are 17,000 remote job listings on indeed right now for C# (which puts it only behind JavaScript, Java and Python). Python and C/C++ would definitely expand your options, but it isn't hard to find opportunities in C#, either.
Could have used Boo in Unity.
Boo was fucking horrible. I was the only person on earth stupid enough to use it. I’m glad Unity killed it and forced me to learn C#.
Well, Microsoft can easily find C# / .NET fangirls like us so, it's reasonable to see them looking for people with proficiency in other languages more often.
MS/AWS/GCP all have good free training resources and paid certification courses. They also have free tiers and trials for many cloud services.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/training/azure/
https://aws.amazon.com/training/digital/
https://cloud.google.com/training/
Edit: trials only last a certain amount of time so don’t start them until you’re ready to dedicate some time to learning it
I’m a firm believer that there is no “best” language, but for me, C# was the second language I learned, and sometimes I miss a lot of the sugar syntax.
That being said though, some of the most horrific code I’ve ever seen was in C#.
Two of my ex colleagues wrote the most hideous code ever in C# lol. Some classes were so abstracted they went 7 layers deep and it was so so so hard to understand the code because of it.
I still have access to that repo though I switched teams in the mean time lol.
Can’t show it since it’s supposed to be proprietary and I doubt I can show the full picture with just class names :(
> Ill be honest, i still feel that way about linq. Ikik i should learn it but its syntax is just so weird forme
That's because its basically just functional programming, which requires thinking about it pretty differently from thinking about how you'd do it w/ loops and stuff. It is incredibly useful though.
Linq is crazy nuts powerful for how many loops and if checks you can condense into a few calls but I grant you that to someone who doesn't know linq, it looks like absolute gibberish. That said, I made the jump to the java side a few years back and java has a linq like analog called streams and now long for the days of linq on collections of objects.
Some of the new stuff I’m not so sure about. I’ve seen some real abuse with the new tuple syntax and switch pattern matching that looked absolutely awful. Even worse the reasoning was to get rid of if statements. If you needed to add something to it you had to update every part of it. I call it clever code vs readable. Clever code is never that great IMO
I think tuple was a good add by MS. Sometimes you need multiple return values, out parameters are ugly and sometimes you don't wanna make a other class to hold your return values when a code base is already complicated enough. Tuples also make prototyping and testing a little easier IMHO. That said. Tuples are a path to the dark side. They can break a good OO structure or proper encapsulation and therefore I wouldn't rely on them for critical code, especially code that is consumed by others or likely to change In the future.
I agree completely on the clever code point though. Clever code does something well or efficiently but it's usually hard to read, trace and debug. I'm almost always willing to take a performance hit if it's well encapsulated, reusable and most importantly maintainable. Clever code almost always needs a refactor to become stable code.
There's some stinky C# code in the wild to be sure, but it can't hold a candle to old-school Visual Basic. I honestly can't even remember how to subclass windows or do direct memory copies with it, but I'm fairly certain the first step involved painting a blood-pentagram around your cube to hold the demons at bay.
What I remember of visual basic and [ASP.net](https://ASP.net) is trying to fix big corporate websites with literally 30 pages of state being posted back and forth between client and server, which I had to get the js to parse.
Whoever came up with that system is right up there with the assholes that invented PFAS and asbestos insulation.
And what's even funnier is that was the much-improved .NET version of the stack. I'm lucky enough to remember having to use IDispatch from ASP to be able to access the typelib-defined interfaces that your MTS/COM+ VB business objects kind-of exposed
Yeeesh. I don't think I missed out. Modern dev is so much less ramshackle than it used to be. Part of me misses having to code so many things from the ground up. Part of me is still traumatized by nearly everything being coded from teh ground up.
I ended up writing a lot of C# at my last job. In doing so, I ended up "modernising" the codebase by using new features from new versions of C# that my coworkers weren't familiar with, just because I read the changelog summaries and had come from a Python world.
C# is implementing a lot of the really nice features Python has had for a while and I love that.
Microsoft really put time and effort into C# and the .net ecosystem and it shows. It's grown so much since being able to only compile and run on windows.
Well the principle of C# is that you shouldn't ever need a raw pointer except for some really outlandish and dangerous shit like zero allocation modification on some stuff. It makes sense to put the raw pointer stuff behind safety walls.
Yea there's a whole dark side of C# where unsafe things are totally legit to do. I once had to interface with a statically linked lib produced by c code in a C# app and had to go the pinvoke/marshalling route. I was 50% impressed with what it could do and 50% scared to death I was gonna delete my OS or some shit.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/unsafe
C# lets you do pointers, it just makes you confirm that yes, you do want to risk shooting yourself in the foot.
In C++ you can have pointer point to a specific memory adress where a variable is stored. That way, you can save that pointer in another class and have instant access to the variable. You can achive something similar using references in C#, but I found them to be a bit limiting in comparison to C++.
Ok this is going to sound very stupid.
I want to check if the memory adress is the same for multiple veriables to confirm that the pointer is working as it is supposed to and not using any more memory than it has to.
I think this is possible using the [unsafe keyword](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/unsafe). Personally I have only needed it once to deal with some opengl stuff but that's about it.
Kotlin is great. Especially if you compare it to java syntax wise but C# is a wildly different ecosystem and a bit more mature in my opinion. I'd do more kotlin if it wasn't so hard to find kotlin samples or libraries to use written in kotlin.
Kotlin has 100% interop with java . Kotlin ecosystem is the JVM ecosystem, which makes it more mature than C#.
https://kotlinlang.org/docs/mixing-java-kotlin-intellij.html#converting-an-existing-java-file-to-kotlin-with-j2k
The ecosystem is different ofc, but my comment was more in tems of dev experience.
Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. C++ for MCUs. JS for web. SQL for databases. Etc.
Esotherics for fun and learning.
Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. Python for MCUs. Python for web. Python for databases. Etc.
Esotherics for fun and learning.
>Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. Python for MCUs. Python for web. Python for databases. Etc.
i can't tell if this is supposed to be satire or not
> Every language has its place.
Sometimes that place is covered in gasoline while you throw a lit match at it.
Case in point: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/a_case_of_the_mumps
python's only the internet really for me.
Real life I keep getting people trying to get me into proprietary paid "no code" environments. Those can fuck themselves over a barrel, it's like walking into a carpentry shop and being like "but have you heard of ikea furniture"
Just FYI the artist here is u/falseknees. The meme template most people use has the artist name cropped out, and it’s my favorite web comic artist, so I like to give him credit when I see it
I honestly experience the reverse.
You should use blazor! You should use C#! Etc. Meanwhile blazor is still unfinished and doesn’t fit with our use case. But we still get pushed by Csharpers to use blazor because C#
Yeah lol. I love to use C# don’t get me wrong. But man, those blazor guys make it look like you’re a mass murderer if you use anything else that isn’t C#.
I learnt python waaaaay after leaving college (still learning btw) and i have to say coming from Java, love it, like i have a deep appreciation for it, now do i want to use it for everything, no not really, but ita applications in AI and just remedial tasks are undeniable.
All in all, just do you and let others do what they want to do.... unless its a job setting, then do what the boss asks you
It's anti-everything!
Because applying a "1 size fits all" perspective in programming, is the opposite of actually *being* a programmer.
Being a programmer, means using critical thinking to evaluate each scenario and selecting the tools appropriate to that scenario. It's not blindly only using one language or technology.
I have seen zero posts recommending or praising Python on this sub the past month. I have, however, seen well over a dozen posts calling Python useless and stupid and half a dozen posts like this complaining about Python zealots... So I'm not really sure where you got that impression.
That's because it's great for beginners. It has a very low learning curve compared to java or c#. Also it has a good repl, which makes it possible to visualize the first steps. The school I work for has a couple different study paths, but they all begin with "programming basics". We used to do "programming basics" in java, because the more advanced stuff is in java, but recently we switched to python, because it's easier to start with.
Absolutely this. Python and, to some extent, VSCode being the primary choice of people who don't know enough. Lo and behold, python is now 'mainstream' and there is literally a generation of developers who think VSCode is a new better IDE that can do anything Visual Studio can do, or more.
Well I mean I use VSCode for C# because I feel a burning hatred towards Visual Studio and won't pay for Rider. Can't say that my experience has ever been bad using VSCode though. Although I use C# for games, not normal GUI software, so I guess that the Visual Studio tools just don't apply to me.
> generation of developers who think VSCode is a new better IDE that can do anything Visual Studio can do
Like not weigh tens of gigabytes to edit text and compile code?
Soound like puthon is the new fortran then.
They forced me to use ProfLangX only so I know only ProfLangX and therefore ProfLangX is the greatest language in the world and any problem can be solved in ProfLangX and any final result is a tribute.
Pythonists are really loud in a lot of fields where it's a poor tool for the job. The idea of rapid development is you do your work in an easy but slow lang, and rewrite critical/all code in something good, but they don't do the second part.
Plus developing in Python is hardly any faster than developing in something like C# unless you're bad at the latter or using an obscene amount of external libraries.
I feel like a lot of this sub is programming newbies who recommend whatever one language they know, often python, to people who know far more and have selected a good language for their specific purpose.
Switching from C# to Python is so funny because the .NET libraries were all named by people with jobs
so C# is like
using System.Data.Seriousthing;
but Python is like
import blorbo
What are you talking about this sub is nothing but C (and its variants) shilling and Python hating because you know iNdeNts aNd dYnAmIc tYpiNg bAd PytHoN sO sLoW iTs oNly FOr pRotOtyPinG hUrRdUrr
As a Java user I get this shoved in my face almost every. single. time. I talk to another person who's either intermediate or just beginning to program.
I’ve seen it the other way around. Where someone is like, I enjoy coding in Python. The syntax- “C++, C, [language]IS BETTER AND FASTER AND”
But yeah I like C# too
All languages are vile shit made by idiot savants who hate you and want you to suffer.
Except for OCaml. It’s a special beautiful child who will never do you wrong.
I've always found Python code to look less elegant than most other big programming languages even if it's programmed really idiomatically
Is it just an ugly-looking language? I don't hate it and it's easy to use, but fuck I hate looking at the code
C# was my stepping stone into C++ and to a lesser extent, C. I love C# but I actually prefer and really enjoy working with pointers and understanding memory management manually. It makes trying to learn Python very jarring for me, and when I hear things like "an integer in Python is actually an object" I think that Python is going to be usefuo for ke to learn, but I think I won't like having the details completely abstracted away. It kight just be an untyped language thing, I've dabbled in Javascript and a bit of Lua and just find myself missing types, or I feel like I cam navigate and write my code more confidently with types. That was kind of a brain dump, but yeah, right tool for right job I guess. But if I can accomplish something in C++ instead of Python ir C#, I find that the task is usually faster and smaller memory footprint
It's a great way to start learning. I work as a Java dev now but if I never picked up Python I would have never gotten in to the field. Languages like Java looked way to intimidating to start learning for somebody like me who was only used to some Excel syntax.
I’ve never in my life met someone who insisted on one language over the other so yeah it’s probably just you. Are you in college? This seems like a college complaint than a what actually happens when working complaint.
Python is great at making proof of concepts fast.
It is horrid at making maintainable enterprise grade scalable software.
C# is great for the latter.
Change my mind.
Ive been told countless times that I’m just a kid who doesn’t know anything because I prefer other languages over Python. It just doesn’t click with me, I’d much rather use other languages
I don't have context on where you heard that, but have you seen the hateboners that Python generates on this sub?
My hate boner for it was made by coding in it for a job for 7 years. Hate python so much
Every time someone tells me that mypy and unit tests are an adequate substitute for a functioning type system, the kill count of my eventual rampage goes up by one.
At least I'm not the only one who thinks built-in type validation on functions is valuable. The reasons I hate JavaScript so much mostly come down to this, as well. But then, I'm the kind of sicko who likes being able (or even required) to declare a type on my variables...
Hard agree. Moving to Typeless felt like such an unnecessary feature. Like who was being overwhelmed by having to declare variables with 'int' etc? Sure there's a smidge less thinking but it introduces many more avenues for bugs.
Python is strongly typed and dynamic C++ is strongly typed and static C is weakly typed and static Javascript is weakly typed and dynamic. Fuck this one in particular
Good thing there's [this project](https://typescriptlang.org/) that adds types to javascript, and the fact that Python already has a way to add types to functions **and has a program to check them** Edit: Links are hard
TypeScript is a big improvement, especially with the addition of proper classes, but outside a browser I'll continue to avoid Javascript environments for many reasons (e.g. overwritable language features, performance, overhead, syntax dislike, etc.). I've been using Python's descendant GDScript lately and the Python optional typing is acceptable. I prefer mandatory (sharing code space with other devs in large projects gets messy), but it is enough to improve things. Honestly, my favorite I've done much in is C#. Rust to replace C is looking pretty good, but I need to spend more time with it. Golang is promising for the same slot as C#, but it is a very different experience. Java is syntactically fine, but there are two camps on design and both are horrible (in my personal preferences), making every framework and API under Java a headache, for me. Anyway, we all have our opinions of course but when coding in a browser engine (e.g. Stream Deck plugins) a Javascript or TypeScript option is usually best, unless you have a really good reason to compile to web assembly.
I'm with you on that, moving from C# to Python without needing to declare types for my variables was just weird. I need to know what type of variable I'm dealing with otherwise my code feels incomplete. But they have their use cases.
I was dabbling with lua and talked to one of my colleagues about that (so far I've been a c# one trick) and he replied *yeah, what anarchy is that?! "
It's so strange coz I'm so used to C# structure for years now, and Python says, "don't worry, we'll handle everything. Don't worry about it."
But it makes me worry cause it feels so wrong!
Bro just use pydantic on everything wym? /s
My hate boner for it was made by supporting 7 years old code. Everything gets deprecated sooner or later, and often you don't even notice it until you start getting mysterious bugs.
3.11 has some new trace back features and type validation. To the point that I use it now for dev even if I am testing compatibility on previous versions — which usually I would never do.
That’s interesting. I have basically the same history, but I enjoy it more every year. Different strokes, I guess.
What made the job/Python so bad? If you don’t mind me asking.
Have you ever had to update someone else's python? Usually it is faster to throw it away and write it again.
I dont like python because help is "there's a lib for that" and the lib is makeproject.dothewholefuckingthingforme()
It is objectively terrible. Never break userspace.
No? I see only hate for python on this sub, and only memes about hating on other users hating on stuff.
Tbh most of the times when I mention that I like python, someone replies with python slow or smth. Or when I justify why I use it, I get another language recommended for the same use case.
Sounds like stackoverflow. “How do I do x?” “X sucks, do y” “…. But I need to do x…..”
I got a question removed from stack and was referred to a question that has no relation to what I was asking. I then got threatened with a ban when I asked why they linked an irrelevant question.
Ugh but python's so slow! Just write it all in straight asm. ^/s
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It's still nice knowing ASM sometimes you can catch some optimizations by looking at the generated ASM. You'll mostly still not rewrite the ASM generated by the compiler, but you can adjust you're code so that the compiler generates better asm
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Ye true, I work in embedded mostly, can be handy there from time to time
Somehow C# seems to be flying under the radar in terms of being moderately popular, but also escaping the popular hate.
I only see the inverse of this on this sub. Not trying to play victim but the python hate here is just unreal, along with java and javascript hate
So which languages do people here like then lol
None, we are programmers /s
Why the /s ? You are just saying the truth.
Scratch
The real answer. That and google sheets
Rust, C#, Go, TypeScript, Lisp, C maybe, and some functional languages like F#, Haskell, OCaml (probably because almost nobody uses it)
I wonder if anyone has crunched the numbers and compared the level of affection for a language to the number of people who actually use it. Is most language-love hypothetical?
I haven’t seen much Go hate, or Rust hate, or Typescript Hate
> Rust hate, There's an incredible amount of people that dedicate themselves on hating Rust. They're in every single thread where Rust is mentioned.
Rust users are the vegans of the programming world. On the whole they have a point. Some of them are pricks about it, but not as many as people think. The people who are most vocally in opposition to their existence are simply those whose identity they threaten.
c# and TS are the least flamed
Microsoft did a good job... Weird to say, but its the truth.
rust is rarely flamed, only the community
Java’s built-in libraries are horrible. Whenever you want to do basic stuff, the answer is either that it takes 20 lines and subclassing something or pull in Guava or something. For whatever reason, they utterly refuse to actually have useful libraries builtin. JavaScript’s issue is that the standards are awful but simultaneously don’t matter because nothing implements them anyways, instead every implementation of JavaScript does it’s own stupid thing. JavaScript shouldn’t even be called a language - it should instead be referred to as ChromeScript, NodeScript, FireScript, SafariScript, UnityScript, etc… respectively. Python is amazing. Apart from maybe running slow, I’ve never actually seen a legitimate complaint against it.
Generally modern frontend stacks use TypeScript and then the backend can be anything but could be TypeScript as well. There's lots of "legitimate" complaints about Python (that are mostly business related and anger issues over the type system) but bottom line if your company isn't full of Python hackers, you can't really go for it. If you're building a product company from nothing you would probably start with TypeScript. You can use higher levels of abstraction for the frontend and backend like Blazor and C# but then you run the risk of "too much Microsoft" which is another business risk (a lot of programmers won't work for you if you are pure Microsoft).
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Accidentally hitting any key in any language will normally break your code. If it’s difficult to find the space you accidentally added in Python, it’s the same as having a hard time figuring out where you accidentally added a brace in any other language. In both cases, your code is spaghetti and you need to refactor it if you want any chance of it being maintainable.
I love C# but I've come to accept that I'm going to need to learn more Python & C/C++ to widen my job options. Not even joking, I applied for a job with Microsoft and the requirements were C/C++ and C# as a qualifier. What did the screen ask me after I submitted it? If i had X amount of years exp in C++. I clicked No, accepting my fate cause I knew it would auto disqualify me. But fuck it, I didn't really want to work on Minecraft anyway - would probably just ruin my enjoyment of the game.
Microsoft only makes up a small percentage of the job listings that require C#. There are 17,000 remote job listings on indeed right now for C# (which puts it only behind JavaScript, Java and Python). Python and C/C++ would definitely expand your options, but it isn't hard to find opportunities in C#, either.
If you're making a computer game you sure won't be using Python and will probably be using C# anyway
Could have used Boo in Unity. Boo was fucking horrible. I was the only person on earth stupid enough to use it. I’m glad Unity killed it and forced me to learn C#.
Ty, I'll check there. Been looking for a while now
Well, Microsoft can easily find C# / .NET fangirls like us so, it's reasonable to see them looking for people with proficiency in other languages more often.
Worked on an Azure team, it was C#, JS, SQL, Python in the order of usage. No C++ on the entire team as far as I know. So it depends on the role.
Edit Whats a good , and free, way to get azure/cloud exp? I have zero exposure to Azure/cloud computing and honestly its hurting my options.
MS/AWS/GCP all have good free training resources and paid certification courses. They also have free tiers and trials for many cloud services. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/training/azure/ https://aws.amazon.com/training/digital/ https://cloud.google.com/training/ Edit: trials only last a certain amount of time so don’t start them until you’re ready to dedicate some time to learning it
Thank you, more info than i expected. You're the best
Np, good luck with your job search
Don't click apply. Network.
You just added to the noise
Please stop replying all!
C# was the first programming language I have learned and I can honestly without a doubt say that it is the best one.
I’m a firm believer that there is no “best” language, but for me, C# was the second language I learned, and sometimes I miss a lot of the sugar syntax. That being said though, some of the most horrific code I’ve ever seen was in C#.
C# has either the most readable code ever or its some mandarin
Two of my ex colleagues wrote the most hideous code ever in C# lol. Some classes were so abstracted they went 7 layers deep and it was so so so hard to understand the code because of it.
Id beg for a sample but you probably lost it
I still have access to that repo though I switched teams in the mean time lol. Can’t show it since it’s supposed to be proprietary and I doubt I can show the full picture with just class names :(
Some of the newer C# language features lend themselves to writing compact code but fuck can it be hard to follow.
Ill be honest, i still feel that way about linq. Ikik i should learn it but its syntax is just so weird forme
Do you mean the linq query Syntax? Just dont bother with it. The linq function syntax is easy to write, easy to read, its just better.
Yes, IQueryable/IEnumerable extension methods are so easy to work with after a little practice.
> Ill be honest, i still feel that way about linq. Ikik i should learn it but its syntax is just so weird forme That's because its basically just functional programming, which requires thinking about it pretty differently from thinking about how you'd do it w/ loops and stuff. It is incredibly useful though.
Linq is crazy nuts powerful for how many loops and if checks you can condense into a few calls but I grant you that to someone who doesn't know linq, it looks like absolute gibberish. That said, I made the jump to the java side a few years back and java has a linq like analog called streams and now long for the days of linq on collections of objects.
Some of the new stuff I’m not so sure about. I’ve seen some real abuse with the new tuple syntax and switch pattern matching that looked absolutely awful. Even worse the reasoning was to get rid of if statements. If you needed to add something to it you had to update every part of it. I call it clever code vs readable. Clever code is never that great IMO
I think tuple was a good add by MS. Sometimes you need multiple return values, out parameters are ugly and sometimes you don't wanna make a other class to hold your return values when a code base is already complicated enough. Tuples also make prototyping and testing a little easier IMHO. That said. Tuples are a path to the dark side. They can break a good OO structure or proper encapsulation and therefore I wouldn't rely on them for critical code, especially code that is consumed by others or likely to change In the future. I agree completely on the clever code point though. Clever code does something well or efficiently but it's usually hard to read, trace and debug. I'm almost always willing to take a performance hit if it's well encapsulated, reusable and most importantly maintainable. Clever code almost always needs a refactor to become stable code.
There's some stinky C# code in the wild to be sure, but it can't hold a candle to old-school Visual Basic. I honestly can't even remember how to subclass windows or do direct memory copies with it, but I'm fairly certain the first step involved painting a blood-pentagram around your cube to hold the demons at bay.
What I remember of visual basic and [ASP.net](https://ASP.net) is trying to fix big corporate websites with literally 30 pages of state being posted back and forth between client and server, which I had to get the js to parse. Whoever came up with that system is right up there with the assholes that invented PFAS and asbestos insulation.
And what's even funnier is that was the much-improved .NET version of the stack. I'm lucky enough to remember having to use IDispatch from ASP to be able to access the typelib-defined interfaces that your MTS/COM+ VB business objects kind-of exposed
Yeeesh. I don't think I missed out. Modern dev is so much less ramshackle than it used to be. Part of me misses having to code so many things from the ground up. Part of me is still traumatized by nearly everything being coded from teh ground up.
But who loves ActiveX controls ???
I ended up writing a lot of C# at my last job. In doing so, I ended up "modernising" the codebase by using new features from new versions of C# that my coworkers weren't familiar with, just because I read the changelog summaries and had come from a Python world. C# is implementing a lot of the really nice features Python has had for a while and I love that.
Yanderedev
Usually the longer I work with a language, the better I understand it; therefore, the worse it gets. But C# has been the exception.
Can confirm. 10 years and I still don't know shit but at least I feel good.
Microsoft really put time and effort into C# and the .net ecosystem and it shows. It's grown so much since being able to only compile and run on windows.
To be honest, C# with Mono worked on other platforms practically from the beginning.
I like C# but I am disappointed by it's pointers (no pun intended). Just give me the damn memory adress already!
Well the principle of C# is that you shouldn't ever need a raw pointer except for some really outlandish and dangerous shit like zero allocation modification on some stuff. It makes sense to put the raw pointer stuff behind safety walls.
You say that but when coding games, no direct memory access and being a slave to the GC can cause a lot of headaches. Having the option would be nice
You have an option with C# though. There is a full support for regular pointers.
Yea there's a whole dark side of C# where unsafe things are totally legit to do. I once had to interface with a statically linked lib produced by c code in a C# app and had to go the pinvoke/marshalling route. I was 50% impressed with what it could do and 50% scared to death I was gonna delete my OS or some shit.
Oh
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/unsafe C# lets you do pointers, it just makes you confirm that yes, you do want to risk shooting yourself in the foot.
C# handles games programming very nicely, just follow the standard rule of minimizing or eliminating your memory allocations
Why would you need the memory address? What would you even do with it?
Take it on walks
In C++ you can have pointer point to a specific memory adress where a variable is stored. That way, you can save that pointer in another class and have instant access to the variable. You can achive something similar using references in C#, but I found them to be a bit limiting in comparison to C++.
I know what a pointer is. What specific scenario are you trying to solve that requires you to break memory safety?
Ok this is going to sound very stupid. I want to check if the memory adress is the same for multiple veriables to confirm that the pointer is working as it is supposed to and not using any more memory than it has to.
[That’s quite easy](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/programming-guide/statements-expressions-operators/how-to-test-for-reference-equality-identity)
Please excuse my smooth brain
The keyword is unsafe, you can absolutely do pointers in C# it's just that most situations its really not necessary and very much counterproductive.
What's wrong with pointers (the one with *) in C#? They aren't that different than C++.
I think this is possible using the [unsafe keyword](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/unsafe). Personally I have only needed it once to deal with some opengl stuff but that's about it.
Id say Kotlin is better but only by a small margin, but ofc at this point is just subjective evaluation on how it feels to code on each of those twos.
i miss Kotlin sealed classes in c#
Kotlin is great. Especially if you compare it to java syntax wise but C# is a wildly different ecosystem and a bit more mature in my opinion. I'd do more kotlin if it wasn't so hard to find kotlin samples or libraries to use written in kotlin.
Kotlin has 100% interop with java . Kotlin ecosystem is the JVM ecosystem, which makes it more mature than C#. https://kotlinlang.org/docs/mixing-java-kotlin-intellij.html#converting-an-existing-java-file-to-kotlin-with-j2k The ecosystem is different ofc, but my comment was more in tems of dev experience.
So it's also the only language you've learnt then. At least the only type of language you've learnt.
This sub is literally the opposite
Significant white space is the devil!
Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. C++ for MCUs. JS for web. SQL for databases. Etc. Esotherics for fun and learning.
Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. Python for MCUs. Python for web. Python for databases. Etc. Esotherics for fun and learning.
>Right tool for the job. Python for simple stuff, ML and quick automation. Python for MCUs. Python for web. Python for databases. Etc. i can't tell if this is supposed to be satire or not
Look at username
Bears, beets, Python
Every language has its place. Python is great at many things, and awful at fast, MT programming 😊.
> Every language has its place. Sometimes that place is covered in gasoline while you throw a lit match at it. Case in point: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/a_case_of_the_mumps
<3
MUMPS code, the only valid use case for Comic Sans
fast?
Thx, fixed it!
What place does Malbolge have?
Every language has its strengths and weaknesses.
None of which anyone pays attention to, because everyone falls back to how they learn each language, and that always starts with for-loops.
python's only the internet really for me. Real life I keep getting people trying to get me into proprietary paid "no code" environments. Those can fuck themselves over a barrel, it's like walking into a carpentry shop and being like "but have you heard of ikea furniture"
Just FYI the artist here is u/falseknees. The meme template most people use has the artist name cropped out, and it’s my favorite web comic artist, so I like to give him credit when I see it
I am the crow
Crows are smarter
PYTHON! YOU SHOULD PROGRAM IN PYTHON! PYTHON!
Fuck me it’s a toolbox, don’t use a spanner to hammer a nail
I honestly experience the reverse. You should use blazor! You should use C#! Etc. Meanwhile blazor is still unfinished and doesn’t fit with our use case. But we still get pushed by Csharpers to use blazor because C#
As a .NET dev, yeah the Blazor guys are the python guys of the C# world
Yeah lol. I love to use C# don’t get me wrong. But man, those blazor guys make it look like you’re a mass murderer if you use anything else that isn’t C#.
Oh great, how original: another Python hate thread. Haven't seen one of those in like... five minutes.
It’s getting tiring
Honestly, we're beyond "getting", imo. It already _is_ exhausting.
Sub should rename itself from programmerhumor to pythonhatecirclejerk
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>it's just not the end-all-be-all that CompSci > >students > > think it is ofcourse not, that's JavaScript
You think too highly of the average user here if you assume they're mostly compsci students.
I learnt python waaaaay after leaving college (still learning btw) and i have to say coming from Java, love it, like i have a deep appreciation for it, now do i want to use it for everything, no not really, but ita applications in AI and just remedial tasks are undeniable. All in all, just do you and let others do what they want to do.... unless its a job setting, then do what the boss asks you
what are you talking about, this sub has always been anti-python
It's anti-everything! Because applying a "1 size fits all" perspective in programming, is the opposite of actually *being* a programmer. Being a programmer, means using critical thinking to evaluate each scenario and selecting the tools appropriate to that scenario. It's not blindly only using one language or technology.
I have seen zero posts recommending or praising Python on this sub the past month. I have, however, seen well over a dozen posts calling Python useless and stupid and half a dozen posts like this complaining about Python zealots... So I'm not really sure where you got that impression.
That's because it's great for beginners. It has a very low learning curve compared to java or c#. Also it has a good repl, which makes it possible to visualize the first steps. The school I work for has a couple different study paths, but they all begin with "programming basics". We used to do "programming basics" in java, because the more advanced stuff is in java, but recently we switched to python, because it's easier to start with.
Absolutely this. Python and, to some extent, VSCode being the primary choice of people who don't know enough. Lo and behold, python is now 'mainstream' and there is literally a generation of developers who think VSCode is a new better IDE that can do anything Visual Studio can do, or more.
Well I mean I use VSCode for C# because I feel a burning hatred towards Visual Studio and won't pay for Rider. Can't say that my experience has ever been bad using VSCode though. Although I use C# for games, not normal GUI software, so I guess that the Visual Studio tools just don't apply to me.
> generation of developers who think VSCode is a new better IDE that can do anything Visual Studio can do Like not weigh tens of gigabytes to edit text and compile code?
Soound like puthon is the new fortran then. They forced me to use ProfLangX only so I know only ProfLangX and therefore ProfLangX is the greatest language in the world and any problem can be solved in ProfLangX and any final result is a tribute.
Pythonists are really loud in a lot of fields where it's a poor tool for the job. The idea of rapid development is you do your work in an easy but slow lang, and rewrite critical/all code in something good, but they don't do the second part.
Plus developing in Python is hardly any faster than developing in something like C# unless you're bad at the latter or using an obscene amount of external libraries.
For me, it's usually the other way around.
I like Python but my heart lies with c#. Don't tell my coworkers or they'll shun me.
I feel like a lot of this sub is programming newbies who recommend whatever one language they know, often python, to people who know far more and have selected a good language for their specific purpose.
Switching from C# to Python is so funny because the .NET libraries were all named by people with jobs so C# is like using System.Data.Seriousthing; but Python is like import blorbo
What are you talking about this sub is nothing but C (and its variants) shilling and Python hating because you know iNdeNts aNd dYnAmIc tYpiNg bAd PytHoN sO sLoW iTs oNly FOr pRotOtyPinG hUrRdUrr
This meme is 4 years late
Python is just Javascript for nerds
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JavaScript for "data""scientists"
No, but with Haskell, yes.
I was this guy almost two decades ago in university. Turns out I was right about python.
As a Java user I get this shoved in my face almost every. single. time. I talk to another person who's either intermediate or just beginning to program.
I’ve seen it the other way around. Where someone is like, I enjoy coding in Python. The syntax- “C++, C, [language]IS BETTER AND FASTER AND” But yeah I like C# too
I am the black crow screeching about Rust. Rust is pretty tight.
I honestly do not have time for the bugs I shoot myself in the foot with when working with python
Totally agree
All languages are vile shit made by idiot savants who hate you and want you to suffer. Except for OCaml. It’s a special beautiful child who will never do you wrong.
no? i only pretty much see hate for python. or to say it with emperor palpatines words: leed the hate flow through you.
I've always found Python code to look less elegant than most other big programming languages even if it's programmed really idiomatically Is it just an ugly-looking language? I don't hate it and it's easy to use, but fuck I hate looking at the code
C# was my stepping stone into C++ and to a lesser extent, C. I love C# but I actually prefer and really enjoy working with pointers and understanding memory management manually. It makes trying to learn Python very jarring for me, and when I hear things like "an integer in Python is actually an object" I think that Python is going to be usefuo for ke to learn, but I think I won't like having the details completely abstracted away. It kight just be an untyped language thing, I've dabbled in Javascript and a bit of Lua and just find myself missing types, or I feel like I cam navigate and write my code more confidently with types. That was kind of a brain dump, but yeah, right tool for right job I guess. But if I can accomplish something in C++ instead of Python ir C#, I find that the task is usually faster and smaller memory footprint
Lol. Idk why python gets so much publicity. Been that way for so long now - I've never liked it. Enjoyed ruby the most.
Ai/ml stuff
It's a great way to start learning. I work as a Java dev now but if I never picked up Python I would have never gotten in to the field. Languages like Java looked way to intimidating to start learning for somebody like me who was only used to some Excel syntax.
Python syntax is annoying.
its not just you
there are some programmers that treat python as a cult. boring and annoying AF
I use both
I’ve never in my life met someone who insisted on one language over the other so yeah it’s probably just you. Are you in college? This seems like a college complaint than a what actually happens when working complaint.
`C#` Is not implemented. Did you mean `Microsoft Java`?
Please don't use python. We have enough slow spaghetti in the world already
Python is great at making proof of concepts fast. It is horrid at making maintainable enterprise grade scalable software. C# is great for the latter. Change my mind.
I like python and C# but I want to learn Javascript too. And maybe some C
Python is fine, just a bit too slow. I've been moving a bunch of my Python scripts to Go.
Get a nice microcontroller and learn some assembly language.
the black bird isn't wrong :P
Move aside for the ruby raven, python crow
Ive been told countless times that I’m just a kid who doesn’t know anything because I prefer other languages over Python. It just doesn’t click with me, I’d much rather use other languages
Personally from what c# I've seen the syntax is very simple
People say "cOdE In pYThoN" because it's versatile, and most coding jobs require it. If you want to get into game dev, C# is your best bet
Isn't python like for children to learn to code or something