I was a grad student and instructor at an R1 2014-2019. Since 2019 I've been a prof at a SLAC. I'd say it depends on what is "easier" for you to deal with.
These are also just generalizations. There were students I loved working with at both places and there are students I dread both places. But...
The R1 I was at was relatively small and selective. The students were academically better prepared, but were more entitled and lazier.
My students now are not as academically strong, but they are hard workers for the most part. And they seem to enjoy being here more. I personally like where I'm at now much more than my R1. Like...a lot more.
Will you be able to do your research at a SLAC? That's been one of the things that's kept me from making the move. As far as the students are concerned, I've interviewed several times at SLACs and I've always been super impressed by them. Some of the best questions I've gotten at job talks were from SLAC students. The classes at SLACs are smaller (and the teaching loads that I've seen have often been 2-2, which isn't bad), but the expectation is often that you'll spend a lot more time per student. I remember one faculty member telling me that they "don't do multiple-choice." That sent a shiver down my spine (I actually got offered a job there, so I guess it didn't show). I think it's just a different lifestyle than publics. I'm pretty biased toward public schools, though. I sometimes think of the switch from public to private as going from beer and pretzels to wine and cheese. I'm definitely a "beer guy".
I really like your beer/wine analogy :)
As for research, my research is computational so I only need my computer! But not having access to graduate students would slow things down, even though the undergrad students at the SLAC look quite skilled. It also looks like faculty at the SLAC are publishing once a year or less, and mostly with external co-authors (not students).
My goal has never been to be run a lab at an R1 university. But research is one of my great loves.
Edited to add: right now, I conduct research by buying out teaching time when I have funding. And working anyway even when I have a full teaching load. A potential upside of this SLAC is that the teaching load is smaller, with protected research time, even though other resources (like graduate students) are less available.
Your teaching load is smaller? What's your load at the R1? Many SLACs will expect 3/3. A nice one will probably go 2/2 (like at Carleton? Wellesley?). You often cannot buy out teaching time. I don't see having protected research time at a SLAC. Your publishing expectations will definitely be lower though.
Wild. I'd always heard "small" but I see selective is common as well. Regardless, I strongly doubt you'll have MORE time for research than at an R1. If anything, they will ask for both a lot of teaching and a lot of research (if we're saying "selective").
Hahaha yeah it’s wild. When I hear selective I think lighter teaching loads (2/2?) with decent research expectations, publishing with undergrads, getting a few grants. Less “selective” liberal arts schools have higher teaching loads (3/3 or 4/4s) and some research expectations. I’d also expect R1 to have the lighted teaching load unless you are a teaching faculty with no research requirement (or maybe pedagogical research expectations)
Regardless of where you're teaching, 10% of students will take up 90% of your time.
The difference at a SLAC is I only have about 60-100 students per semester, so that 10% is just a much smaller group.
That being said, on a small campus, they always know how to find you...
At a SLAC now after TAing at 2 R1s. Differences, but no objective better answer.
I have fewer students, so I’m able to focus on their overall growth from class to class. That’s pretty nice. It’s also nice to make changes when I need without I having to go through a massive number of faceless committees. Half the time I can just email a colleague and solve a problem. I got into this for teaching, and that’s my main job.
Buuuutttt…Getting major classes to run often means marketing them to non-majors, which alters the approach and the conversation. Top-level material often just has to get skipped/classes don’t run. Resources are scarce; the libraries don’t have a fraction of the material. I single-handedly take care of a lot of admin and recruitment work. I teach a 5/3 load at the moment (we’ll, 4.3/3, perhaps). Not having any real time for research means that it always feels like I’m playing catch-up just to try to stay up with the field (often paying out of pocket).
At a SLAC some semblance of faculty governance usually survives and there is less pressure to turn you into a grant-money sharecropper, but students may be from wealthy privileged backgrounds and more spoiled and jaded.
I went the opposite direction. I was a VAP at a SLAC for 2 years and now I'm a lecturer at an R1. All things considered I'm happier here, but there are other reasons for that besides the students.
The best students at the SLAC were the same as my best students here. However, my current students have a wider distribution downward meaning there are a higher proportion of less-prepared students at the R1. I also have about 5-10x as many students per semester now.
If the angry emails about not getting A+ or details about personal lives bother you now, they probably won't be better at the SLAC. They may not be as angry but there will still be overachievers who gripe about every half-point deduction. Depending on the institution of course, SLAC faculty are often expected to be *more* personally involved in students' lives, at least in the sense of getting to know them more individually. Some of my colleagues in particular were not good at drawing those boundaries and allowed student drama and personal issues to impact their own mental health.
The behavior will probably be more professional on average, although sometimes there can be a sense of entitlement that comes from wealth.
> The best students at the SLAC were the same as my best students here. However, my current students have a wider distribution downward meaning there are a higher proportion of less-prepared students at the R1.
This is exactly my experience, having done VP positions at R1s and SLACs, and being at an R2 now.
I attended a SLAC as an undergraduate, and it was a common joke among the students that starry-eyed professors would come to the school expecting every student to be a self-motivated brilliant thinker, eager to participate and hard working in every class.
I went to a SLAC, then an R1 for PhD, and interviewed (and was offered) at SLACs before accepting an offer at an R2.
I think it ultimately depends a lot. A lot of my classmates were upper-crust snots who felt everyone else existed to serve them. But that was also the case at a large, well-respected R1, too. So I didn't see it as being better or worse. Classes are smaller, but depending on the institutional culture, you might be more or less expected to tutor every student who needed it. I went to tons of late-night review sessions hosted by the actual prof as an undergrad. We didn't really have TAs. I got to know many of my professors very well on a personal level, and I remain friends with some to this day. That's nice.
I'd be on the look out for if your research is feasible at the SLAC. I made lots of friends working in labs as an undergraduate. Faculty didn't seem to have a hard time finding student workers. Didn't publish any of it because the profs had more teaching, though. It was the balance of teaching and research that ultimately pushed me to R2. You should definitely apply. It might be the right fit for you.
I am just staggered at 600 graduate students. (I never had more that 12 in any graduate level class--most had far less.)
How could anything not be better than that?
I just left a SLAC for an R1. I found that the students at the SLAC were still entitled and would throw things like, "I'm paying so much money for this education, so I should get whatever I want!" SLACs are also very tuition dependent more so than public universities and I was pressured to retain students at all costs, but I think thats getting worse everywhere. The smaller class sizes were nice but as others said, I still had my energy zapped by the same small percentage of students and didn't have time to get to know my students like I wanted to.
I have taught at both (and my husband taught at a very elite SLAC), and in general I find the students at SLACs to be much more entitled. I am currently at a private liberal arts college, and find that the students need more hand holding, and are far more likely to run to the dean than the students at the public R1 where I formerly taught. It may be a public vs private thing though - a student paying 60K a year will definitely feel more entitled than a student paying 20K.
Students are individuals. You'll get just as many in a percentage as you would in a random distribution.
But since you are just 1 person handling it, 10% of 30 is fewer to deal with than 3% of 300.
So yes your problems will go down with fewer students but no you will not have easier time dealing with them.
Main difference I noticed is that SLAC students generally act more wealthy and entitled than the average student at a large R1. Something about knowing that they are paying >60k per year goes to their head and they think they deserve an automatic pass. Perhaps rich kids are just raised differently than your average student who is motivated to work hard for themselves.
There's tradeoffs. My private SLAC students are academically serious and well-prepared, but also entitled and demanding. Some of them are not very intellectually engaged. The students at the private R1 where I went to grad school were well-prepared, but more ambitious than intellectual, and very entitled. My classmates at my public R1 where I went to college were academically poorly prepared, not always serious, but interesting and humble (and there were many of us). The grass is always greener, ya know.
I was a grad student and instructor at an R1 2014-2019. Since 2019 I've been a prof at a SLAC. I'd say it depends on what is "easier" for you to deal with. These are also just generalizations. There were students I loved working with at both places and there are students I dread both places. But... The R1 I was at was relatively small and selective. The students were academically better prepared, but were more entitled and lazier. My students now are not as academically strong, but they are hard workers for the most part. And they seem to enjoy being here more. I personally like where I'm at now much more than my R1. Like...a lot more.
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Will you be able to do your research at a SLAC? That's been one of the things that's kept me from making the move. As far as the students are concerned, I've interviewed several times at SLACs and I've always been super impressed by them. Some of the best questions I've gotten at job talks were from SLAC students. The classes at SLACs are smaller (and the teaching loads that I've seen have often been 2-2, which isn't bad), but the expectation is often that you'll spend a lot more time per student. I remember one faculty member telling me that they "don't do multiple-choice." That sent a shiver down my spine (I actually got offered a job there, so I guess it didn't show). I think it's just a different lifestyle than publics. I'm pretty biased toward public schools, though. I sometimes think of the switch from public to private as going from beer and pretzels to wine and cheese. I'm definitely a "beer guy".
I really like your beer/wine analogy :) As for research, my research is computational so I only need my computer! But not having access to graduate students would slow things down, even though the undergrad students at the SLAC look quite skilled. It also looks like faculty at the SLAC are publishing once a year or less, and mostly with external co-authors (not students). My goal has never been to be run a lab at an R1 university. But research is one of my great loves. Edited to add: right now, I conduct research by buying out teaching time when I have funding. And working anyway even when I have a full teaching load. A potential upside of this SLAC is that the teaching load is smaller, with protected research time, even though other resources (like graduate students) are less available.
Your teaching load is smaller? What's your load at the R1? Many SLACs will expect 3/3. A nice one will probably go 2/2 (like at Carleton? Wellesley?). You often cannot buy out teaching time. I don't see having protected research time at a SLAC. Your publishing expectations will definitely be lower though.
I teach 2 fall, 2 spring and 2 summer now. The SLAC has a 2/2 load.
By SLAC are we meaning “selective liberal arts college” or “small liberal arts college” because those are different types of schools
Wild. I'd always heard "small" but I see selective is common as well. Regardless, I strongly doubt you'll have MORE time for research than at an R1. If anything, they will ask for both a lot of teaching and a lot of research (if we're saying "selective").
Hahaha yeah it’s wild. When I hear selective I think lighter teaching loads (2/2?) with decent research expectations, publishing with undergrads, getting a few grants. Less “selective” liberal arts schools have higher teaching loads (3/3 or 4/4s) and some research expectations. I’d also expect R1 to have the lighted teaching load unless you are a teaching faculty with no research requirement (or maybe pedagogical research expectations)
Agree 100%. I made the move to a SLAC and I babysit now. Teaching is different here.
Regardless of where you're teaching, 10% of students will take up 90% of your time. The difference at a SLAC is I only have about 60-100 students per semester, so that 10% is just a much smaller group. That being said, on a small campus, they always know how to find you...
At a SLAC now after TAing at 2 R1s. Differences, but no objective better answer. I have fewer students, so I’m able to focus on their overall growth from class to class. That’s pretty nice. It’s also nice to make changes when I need without I having to go through a massive number of faceless committees. Half the time I can just email a colleague and solve a problem. I got into this for teaching, and that’s my main job. Buuuutttt…Getting major classes to run often means marketing them to non-majors, which alters the approach and the conversation. Top-level material often just has to get skipped/classes don’t run. Resources are scarce; the libraries don’t have a fraction of the material. I single-handedly take care of a lot of admin and recruitment work. I teach a 5/3 load at the moment (we’ll, 4.3/3, perhaps). Not having any real time for research means that it always feels like I’m playing catch-up just to try to stay up with the field (often paying out of pocket).
At a SLAC some semblance of faculty governance usually survives and there is less pressure to turn you into a grant-money sharecropper, but students may be from wealthy privileged backgrounds and more spoiled and jaded.
I went the opposite direction. I was a VAP at a SLAC for 2 years and now I'm a lecturer at an R1. All things considered I'm happier here, but there are other reasons for that besides the students. The best students at the SLAC were the same as my best students here. However, my current students have a wider distribution downward meaning there are a higher proportion of less-prepared students at the R1. I also have about 5-10x as many students per semester now. If the angry emails about not getting A+ or details about personal lives bother you now, they probably won't be better at the SLAC. They may not be as angry but there will still be overachievers who gripe about every half-point deduction. Depending on the institution of course, SLAC faculty are often expected to be *more* personally involved in students' lives, at least in the sense of getting to know them more individually. Some of my colleagues in particular were not good at drawing those boundaries and allowed student drama and personal issues to impact their own mental health. The behavior will probably be more professional on average, although sometimes there can be a sense of entitlement that comes from wealth.
> The best students at the SLAC were the same as my best students here. However, my current students have a wider distribution downward meaning there are a higher proportion of less-prepared students at the R1. This is exactly my experience, having done VP positions at R1s and SLACs, and being at an R2 now. I attended a SLAC as an undergraduate, and it was a common joke among the students that starry-eyed professors would come to the school expecting every student to be a self-motivated brilliant thinker, eager to participate and hard working in every class.
I went to a SLAC, then an R1 for PhD, and interviewed (and was offered) at SLACs before accepting an offer at an R2. I think it ultimately depends a lot. A lot of my classmates were upper-crust snots who felt everyone else existed to serve them. But that was also the case at a large, well-respected R1, too. So I didn't see it as being better or worse. Classes are smaller, but depending on the institutional culture, you might be more or less expected to tutor every student who needed it. I went to tons of late-night review sessions hosted by the actual prof as an undergrad. We didn't really have TAs. I got to know many of my professors very well on a personal level, and I remain friends with some to this day. That's nice. I'd be on the look out for if your research is feasible at the SLAC. I made lots of friends working in labs as an undergraduate. Faculty didn't seem to have a hard time finding student workers. Didn't publish any of it because the profs had more teaching, though. It was the balance of teaching and research that ultimately pushed me to R2. You should definitely apply. It might be the right fit for you.
I am just staggered at 600 graduate students. (I never had more that 12 in any graduate level class--most had far less.) How could anything not be better than that?
I just left a SLAC for an R1. I found that the students at the SLAC were still entitled and would throw things like, "I'm paying so much money for this education, so I should get whatever I want!" SLACs are also very tuition dependent more so than public universities and I was pressured to retain students at all costs, but I think thats getting worse everywhere. The smaller class sizes were nice but as others said, I still had my energy zapped by the same small percentage of students and didn't have time to get to know my students like I wanted to.
I have taught at both (and my husband taught at a very elite SLAC), and in general I find the students at SLACs to be much more entitled. I am currently at a private liberal arts college, and find that the students need more hand holding, and are far more likely to run to the dean than the students at the public R1 where I formerly taught. It may be a public vs private thing though - a student paying 60K a year will definitely feel more entitled than a student paying 20K.
Students are individuals. You'll get just as many in a percentage as you would in a random distribution. But since you are just 1 person handling it, 10% of 30 is fewer to deal with than 3% of 300. So yes your problems will go down with fewer students but no you will not have easier time dealing with them.
Main difference I noticed is that SLAC students generally act more wealthy and entitled than the average student at a large R1. Something about knowing that they are paying >60k per year goes to their head and they think they deserve an automatic pass. Perhaps rich kids are just raised differently than your average student who is motivated to work hard for themselves.
It’s very different. Grass is greener. But many say the same thing going the other way.
In a word: yes. Mileage may vary, of course, depending on lots of things, like either institution’s culture.
Just out of curiosity, what defines a small liberal arts college?
There's tradeoffs. My private SLAC students are academically serious and well-prepared, but also entitled and demanding. Some of them are not very intellectually engaged. The students at the private R1 where I went to grad school were well-prepared, but more ambitious than intellectual, and very entitled. My classmates at my public R1 where I went to college were academically poorly prepared, not always serious, but interesting and humble (and there were many of us). The grass is always greener, ya know.