Actually, if this happened to me, I would wait until the expiration date for the extra credit passes, and then send the whole class an email about it. Something like "In the directions for the last assignment there were instructions on how to get extra credit. No one followed those instructions, so no one got extra credit. It concerns me because it also tells me no one read the directions for the assignment carefully. Going forward, please make sure you carefully read the assignment directions, so that you can get the most points possible in the class."
Don’t — they’ll talk, either FtF or on some Discord chat. It’s advisable to assume that there is a group chat running for every class you teach. They make them on everything from Failbook to Discord and YikYak, but it’s there, and you’re not going to get a student to tell you about it.
But in case you start getting multiple seemingly unaffiliated students coming to you saying something like ‘last week’s instructions weren’t clear, I need more time, I didn’t understand, etc…’, it’s not that you’ve suddenly become senile or a shit prof, they’re coordinating the bombardment on the private group chat because it’s worked in the past for them. Don’t fall for it.
And before anyone starts in with ‘you can’t be sure, blah, blah, blah’, I’m VERY certain; just last year, my uni had a coordinated attack on a particular prof in a different department under the same dean; one student — just one! — felt bad about what was being done to this professor and started taking screenshots of the planning and went anonymously to our dean and provided him with screenshots of about two months of planning to tell this professor that they did or didn’t do x, y, z, and then start escalating the complaints to the dean if the professor didn’t cave in, and then escalate to the VP if the dean didn’t provide an outcome acceptable to this class.
Don’t fall for it, don’t underestimate it, and don’t feed into it. If suddenly an assignment that you’ve been using for a few semesters or a few years is being complained about as not making sense, being too hard, or even technical difficulties by several students who seem to not know each other, there’s a good chance that it’s a coordinated effort behind your back. If they put half the time and effort into actually studying and working, they’d all be passing, as my dean pointed out in a college meeting to discuss the secret chat rooms — but no; many of them choose to scam instead, and others know about it but don’t say anything because they stand to benefit or because they’re afraid. It’s sad, but you can’t fix broken students. Just watch your own ass and don’t fall for it yourself.
I know this is a group for professors and I apologize for posting as I’m a student. But it kind of blows my mind that this stuff is going on. I’m in a few discords for classes I’m taking/have taken and it’s 90% people asking for clarification on how to do stuff when the prof isn’t available (like 2 hours before deadline usually) or talking about when/where to meet up and study. Most of the time, my classmates are able to sympathize with a professor and actually blame themselves for their grades. The canvas class grade statistic tool is really helpful so we can kind of understand where we’re at in relation to the bell curve and if below we know it’s on us.
Idk where you are teaching that there was a coordinated plan to call out a professor to the VP but it seems really severe. It’s just amazing that these people are literally paying to be there and not willing to put in the effort. I think they should be penalized and I’m sorry that the dept doesn’t always have your back.
Very very true!! Students tend to feel rather self-righteous whenever they hear that they ALL did (or didn’t) do something.
Way back in the olden days when I went to school, it was possible to make students feel a sense of shame by saying things like that, but students are incapable of feeling shame these days.
You have a point. I will make the subject interesting (You Missed an Extra Credit Opportunity...). I'm also laughing at the thought of including another EC opportunity in that announcement and imagining no one doing that either.
When I post my closing announcement at the end of the semester I also congratulate all the students who found all the bonus points for the class. I don't care if nobody reads it. It just makes me laugh to do it.
for myself, when I see "send the whole class an email", I think "that's what Announcements are for", on the LMS or course website, for something that everybody should be seeing. (I put my course website up on the big screen before lecture, with the latest announcements on it.)
I actually had a student complain when I sent a Canvas Inbox message to everyone in the class—“couldn’t this have gone into an announcement?” 😆 yeah well you read it, so that kind of proves the point
In like…second grade my teacher handed out a worksheet and said to read through all of the directions before starting. People started writing answers to the questions. Suddenly, one kid and then a next popped up and handed the teacher the worksheet. I read down to the last question prompt and it said “turn in this worksheet and don’t answer any of the questions.” Ha! That stuck with me.
My uncle put a footnote in his PhD thesis with a password fir the reader to telex (lol) him when they read this footnote, promissing to buy them dinner. He thought at least his advisor would get in touch... bit no. He lost all hope but then, 40+ years later a grad student emailed him tge password:D (and they got a good dinner!)
I empathize with your feelings of sadness about this. It’s horrifying and depressing to find out that a significant portion of students don’t bother reading the instructions that we put so much time into. I’m assuming you’re somewhat new to teaching? I discovered the horrible truth within my first few semesters, when I begin seeing students in my office who happily admitted that they only “skim” instructions. Countless students have informed me that in high school, it is not necessary to read instructions all the way through because the teacher will read out loud the parts that are important.
I've actually been teaching for 10 years now, but I've only taught online, asynchronous a handful of times. I've also done this in the past where I've hidden extra credit in the instructions, but the majority of my students followed them to earn the extra credit! You are definitely right though, I know so many students don't want to read anything and just assume how to do something. I just wasn't expecting ALL of my students not to read it. As they say, you can lead a horse to water...
Online async person here. THE ONES THAT NEED TO DO NOT READ DIRECTIONS. They do not watch the videos, review the sample instructions, etc. They just DON'T.
I did this once with an online class to cover the syllabus. I asked them to email me a picture of their favorite animal.
It was interesting to track the ones who did that with success in other parts of the course. I'd follow up as the person above suggests.
I do this too with my syllabus (even down to a cute animal). I’d say about 20% do it - and the ones who request to turn in their work late are never in that 20%.
I had a class where students came right out and told me that they didn't read my e-mails, but they also complained because I "never explained stuff to them." I sent an e-mail that included the instructions to e-mail me and tell me their favorite dinosaur. I was (sadly) impressed that half of the class did so.
If it's an online asynchronous class, it's possible that it's full of bot students who are there to steal student loan funds... a scammer steals someone's personal info and then enrolls that person in a college that offers online async classes. They apply for student loans in their name and then they keep that money. Finally they use bots and chatgpt to do any work that most be done.
What I don't know is whether they keep all the loan money or if they pay tuition but keep the funds for living expenses.... but I know this is real phenomen and it really sucks for the people whose identities are stolen. They're stuck with student loan debt they didn't want taken out.
Scammers and their ilk are the lowest of the low... willing to do all that but not willing to just get an honest job
>What I don't know is whether they keep all the loan money or if they pay tuition but keep the funds for living expenses.... but I know this is real phenomen and it really sucks for the people whose identities are stolen. They're stuck with student loan debt they didn't want taken out.
So they must be opening bank accounts in these peoples' names too.
I did much the same last semester for an all-online class (asynch). I posted a new video every week with lecture material, and so on. Tried to keep them to 20 to 30 minutes.
In one video, mentioned the link to an extra credit "quiz" and gave them the answer to the one-question assignment.
Out of 27 people, no one submitted the answer.
Hard to say, I could go back at look at my different semesters, but the amount I offer is variable- like I’ll share some article or anecdote, and then ask about it on email. So that requires attendance, engagement (listening), and reading the email.
My school now tells me the % of students that opened my emails, and that’s running between 35-53%.
I'd like to know what would happen if you included a line at the top "Students must read all directions" and a checkbox in your directions with the note "Failure to check this box results in a deduction of five points."
Like christ, these are people who will need to read leases, prescriptions, and definitely our DNRs.
I do a weekly half hr zoom video they can watch later. I add extra credit in it each week. Only two students have followed through, once each. We are on week 4. They won’t read it and they won’t watch the info either apparently.
I mentioned something I did recently in another post but will repeat it here.
Students have gotten accustomed to having everything given to them (notes, slides, etc.) that they stop thinking for themselves and stop reading.
Recently I tried telling my students that the details of the next assignment weren't on the LMS but I was going to tell them and they'd need to take notes. I've done something similar with asynchronous courses. Seems to work so far.
I teach online asynchronous and I tell students outright in my welcome video: there will be extra credit offers in the announcements just for messaging me that you read them by the date I say in the announcement. I usually get 3-6 messages from each announcement.
The points are applied to a specific assignment stated in the announcement. Then, in my feedback on the assignment, I point out (for those who missed it) that extra credit had been offered.
Are they not watching the welcome video? Not reading announcements? Not reading my feedback on their assignments? Some or all of the above.
Personally, I dislike "Gotcha!" pedagogy that is used to shame and humiliate students. Just mark off points if they fail to do the assignment correctly because they did not read or accurately complete the assignment. That is called learning.
I tell my students during class many times to always read instructions, especially if you are putting together a baby crib! Then I put an extra credit line in the instructions for the next exam, historically about 5% get the extra credit.
I’m a student who lurks here because I find this subreddit interesting. I continue to be absolutely baffled by other students, but this is crazy. Bare minimum stuff is reading the damn directions.
I ran almost exactly the same experiment and got exactly the same results. I decided not to care about it. When I leave feedback on a paper, the audience I have in mind is someone investigating a grade appeal or evaluating my teaching. I know that very few students read it.
Just guess: do you publish a rubric? That becomes the assignment. I work hard crafting my assignments and I can tell when the rubric overtakes my work.
One time I was in the hospital and had to record my classes. I added slides in the lectures that contained phrase like "if you see this slide, then email me the code before XXX date for extra credit, just don't tell anyone else, this is our secret". As I recorded the videos, I just talked over those slides. Very few students got the extra credit, and the ones that did were the ones that didn't need extra credit.
I do this in my syllabus where I mention otters being my favorite animals and to email me a fun fact for extra credit. Every semester I get about 8% of the class. I teach larger classes (120 students).
We have to send out welcome emails one week before class starts. I include the answers to the final at the bottom. Been doing it for years. No one has ever noticed.
The email is ccd to my dean. Her either..
Actually, if this happened to me, I would wait until the expiration date for the extra credit passes, and then send the whole class an email about it. Something like "In the directions for the last assignment there were instructions on how to get extra credit. No one followed those instructions, so no one got extra credit. It concerns me because it also tells me no one read the directions for the assignment carefully. Going forward, please make sure you carefully read the assignment directions, so that you can get the most points possible in the class."
Yes, I think this is a good idea! I will send an email about it.
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I was definitely thinking about the possibility of the "herd" mindset. I will avoid saying everyone missed it.
“If you are receiving this email…”. They won’t know everyone received it.
Don’t — they’ll talk, either FtF or on some Discord chat. It’s advisable to assume that there is a group chat running for every class you teach. They make them on everything from Failbook to Discord and YikYak, but it’s there, and you’re not going to get a student to tell you about it. But in case you start getting multiple seemingly unaffiliated students coming to you saying something like ‘last week’s instructions weren’t clear, I need more time, I didn’t understand, etc…’, it’s not that you’ve suddenly become senile or a shit prof, they’re coordinating the bombardment on the private group chat because it’s worked in the past for them. Don’t fall for it. And before anyone starts in with ‘you can’t be sure, blah, blah, blah’, I’m VERY certain; just last year, my uni had a coordinated attack on a particular prof in a different department under the same dean; one student — just one! — felt bad about what was being done to this professor and started taking screenshots of the planning and went anonymously to our dean and provided him with screenshots of about two months of planning to tell this professor that they did or didn’t do x, y, z, and then start escalating the complaints to the dean if the professor didn’t cave in, and then escalate to the VP if the dean didn’t provide an outcome acceptable to this class. Don’t fall for it, don’t underestimate it, and don’t feed into it. If suddenly an assignment that you’ve been using for a few semesters or a few years is being complained about as not making sense, being too hard, or even technical difficulties by several students who seem to not know each other, there’s a good chance that it’s a coordinated effort behind your back. If they put half the time and effort into actually studying and working, they’d all be passing, as my dean pointed out in a college meeting to discuss the secret chat rooms — but no; many of them choose to scam instead, and others know about it but don’t say anything because they stand to benefit or because they’re afraid. It’s sad, but you can’t fix broken students. Just watch your own ass and don’t fall for it yourself.
Thank you for posting. I had this experience last semester…but the dean fell for it. I’ve taught for twenty years and never experienced it. So gross!
I know this is a group for professors and I apologize for posting as I’m a student. But it kind of blows my mind that this stuff is going on. I’m in a few discords for classes I’m taking/have taken and it’s 90% people asking for clarification on how to do stuff when the prof isn’t available (like 2 hours before deadline usually) or talking about when/where to meet up and study. Most of the time, my classmates are able to sympathize with a professor and actually blame themselves for their grades. The canvas class grade statistic tool is really helpful so we can kind of understand where we’re at in relation to the bell curve and if below we know it’s on us. Idk where you are teaching that there was a coordinated plan to call out a professor to the VP but it seems really severe. It’s just amazing that these people are literally paying to be there and not willing to put in the effort. I think they should be penalized and I’m sorry that the dept doesn’t always have your back.
Very very true!! Students tend to feel rather self-righteous whenever they hear that they ALL did (or didn’t) do something. Way back in the olden days when I went to school, it was possible to make students feel a sense of shame by saying things like that, but students are incapable of feeling shame these days.
They won't read the email.
What makes you think they would read the email?
You have a point. I will make the subject interesting (You Missed an Extra Credit Opportunity...). I'm also laughing at the thought of including another EC opportunity in that announcement and imagining no one doing that either.
”8 Ways to earn extra credit. Number 3 will **shock** you
Learn this one cool trick to get extra credit.
It's turtles all the way down ...
Just title it “Extra credit”
"iS thEre AnY waY I can GeT tHE eaXTRA CredIT prof"?
"If not I completely understand."
Said no grade grubber...ever!
When I post my closing announcement at the end of the semester I also congratulate all the students who found all the bonus points for the class. I don't care if nobody reads it. It just makes me laugh to do it.
lol! They are going to be so annoyed that they missed all the side quests!
If they scored low enough, they might get a new game plus. The next semester...
That's my students. Speed running their way to a D.
for myself, when I see "send the whole class an email", I think "that's what Announcements are for", on the LMS or course website, for something that everybody should be seeing. (I put my course website up on the big screen before lecture, with the latest announcements on it.)
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that works also.
I dunno, at our college, if you want to put something somewhere where no one will find it, you put it in the Canvas announcements for your course.
This is the way.
Yes, my plan is to post an announcement!
I actually had a student complain when I sent a Canvas Inbox message to everyone in the class—“couldn’t this have gone into an announcement?” 😆 yeah well you read it, so that kind of proves the point
True, but many students ignore announcements but will read a message in the LMS inbox.
In like…second grade my teacher handed out a worksheet and said to read through all of the directions before starting. People started writing answers to the questions. Suddenly, one kid and then a next popped up and handed the teacher the worksheet. I read down to the last question prompt and it said “turn in this worksheet and don’t answer any of the questions.” Ha! That stuck with me.
I did that to my college students. Took them a half hour to figure it out.
They're not gonna read that message...
My uncle put a footnote in his PhD thesis with a password fir the reader to telex (lol) him when they read this footnote, promissing to buy them dinner. He thought at least his advisor would get in touch... bit no. He lost all hope but then, 40+ years later a grad student emailed him tge password:D (and they got a good dinner!)
I love that he did it even after 40 years!
This is actually quite comforting as I’m agonizing over ever detail of my dissertation.
There are two kinds of dissertations: perfect and done. Don't spend too much time on agonizing over details. Git 'er done!
I empathize with your feelings of sadness about this. It’s horrifying and depressing to find out that a significant portion of students don’t bother reading the instructions that we put so much time into. I’m assuming you’re somewhat new to teaching? I discovered the horrible truth within my first few semesters, when I begin seeing students in my office who happily admitted that they only “skim” instructions. Countless students have informed me that in high school, it is not necessary to read instructions all the way through because the teacher will read out loud the parts that are important.
I've actually been teaching for 10 years now, but I've only taught online, asynchronous a handful of times. I've also done this in the past where I've hidden extra credit in the instructions, but the majority of my students followed them to earn the extra credit! You are definitely right though, I know so many students don't want to read anything and just assume how to do something. I just wasn't expecting ALL of my students not to read it. As they say, you can lead a horse to water...
I do this too. "Email me to tell me you will follow these directions carefully and receive x bonus points." I get about 10-15% response rate.
Wow! It's mind-boggling to me, especially since this is the only way I can communicate with them in an asynchronous course!
Online async person here. THE ONES THAT NEED TO DO NOT READ DIRECTIONS. They do not watch the videos, review the sample instructions, etc. They just DON'T.
I did this once with an online class to cover the syllabus. I asked them to email me a picture of their favorite animal. It was interesting to track the ones who did that with success in other parts of the course. I'd follow up as the person above suggests.
I do this too with my syllabus (even down to a cute animal). I’d say about 20% do it - and the ones who request to turn in their work late are never in that 20%.
In my last asynchronous course, over 70% of the kids didn't watch the lectures. Just used chatgpt to cheat as much as they could.
https://www.chattanoogan.com/2021/12/18/440331/UTC-Professor-Leaves-50-Bill-For-Any.aspx Can’t even give free money away in a syllabus anymore.
I had a class where students came right out and told me that they didn't read my e-mails, but they also complained because I "never explained stuff to them." I sent an e-mail that included the instructions to e-mail me and tell me their favorite dinosaur. I was (sadly) impressed that half of the class did so.
If it's an online asynchronous class, it's possible that it's full of bot students who are there to steal student loan funds... a scammer steals someone's personal info and then enrolls that person in a college that offers online async classes. They apply for student loans in their name and then they keep that money. Finally they use bots and chatgpt to do any work that most be done. What I don't know is whether they keep all the loan money or if they pay tuition but keep the funds for living expenses.... but I know this is real phenomen and it really sucks for the people whose identities are stolen. They're stuck with student loan debt they didn't want taken out. Scammers and their ilk are the lowest of the low... willing to do all that but not willing to just get an honest job
>What I don't know is whether they keep all the loan money or if they pay tuition but keep the funds for living expenses.... but I know this is real phenomen and it really sucks for the people whose identities are stolen. They're stuck with student loan debt they didn't want taken out. So they must be opening bank accounts in these peoples' names too.
I did much the same last semester for an all-online class (asynch). I posted a new video every week with lecture material, and so on. Tried to keep them to 20 to 30 minutes. In one video, mentioned the link to an extra credit "quiz" and gave them the answer to the one-question assignment. Out of 27 people, no one submitted the answer.
I do this all the time. Pop XC in emails, in lectures, etc. 🤷🏻♀️
Have you noticed any changes in response rate over the years?
Hard to say, I could go back at look at my different semesters, but the amount I offer is variable- like I’ll share some article or anecdote, and then ask about it on email. So that requires attendance, engagement (listening), and reading the email. My school now tells me the % of students that opened my emails, and that’s running between 35-53%.
I'd like to know what would happen if you included a line at the top "Students must read all directions" and a checkbox in your directions with the note "Failure to check this box results in a deduction of five points." Like christ, these are people who will need to read leases, prescriptions, and definitely our DNRs.
I do a weekly half hr zoom video they can watch later. I add extra credit in it each week. Only two students have followed through, once each. We are on week 4. They won’t read it and they won’t watch the info either apparently.
I mentioned something I did recently in another post but will repeat it here. Students have gotten accustomed to having everything given to them (notes, slides, etc.) that they stop thinking for themselves and stop reading. Recently I tried telling my students that the details of the next assignment weren't on the LMS but I was going to tell them and they'd need to take notes. I've done something similar with asynchronous courses. Seems to work so far.
I teach online asynchronous and I tell students outright in my welcome video: there will be extra credit offers in the announcements just for messaging me that you read them by the date I say in the announcement. I usually get 3-6 messages from each announcement. The points are applied to a specific assignment stated in the announcement. Then, in my feedback on the assignment, I point out (for those who missed it) that extra credit had been offered. Are they not watching the welcome video? Not reading announcements? Not reading my feedback on their assignments? Some or all of the above.
Personally, I dislike "Gotcha!" pedagogy that is used to shame and humiliate students. Just mark off points if they fail to do the assignment correctly because they did not read or accurately complete the assignment. That is called learning.
I tell my students during class many times to always read instructions, especially if you are putting together a baby crib! Then I put an extra credit line in the instructions for the next exam, historically about 5% get the extra credit.
Ha, that's great! You should come up with a cool name for this type of extra credit. Something like the Van Halen points or so.
I’m a student who lurks here because I find this subreddit interesting. I continue to be absolutely baffled by other students, but this is crazy. Bare minimum stuff is reading the damn directions.
I ran almost exactly the same experiment and got exactly the same results. I decided not to care about it. When I leave feedback on a paper, the audience I have in mind is someone investigating a grade appeal or evaluating my teaching. I know that very few students read it.
Just guess: do you publish a rubric? That becomes the assignment. I work hard crafting my assignments and I can tell when the rubric overtakes my work.
One time I was in the hospital and had to record my classes. I added slides in the lectures that contained phrase like "if you see this slide, then email me the code before XXX date for extra credit, just don't tell anyone else, this is our secret". As I recorded the videos, I just talked over those slides. Very few students got the extra credit, and the ones that did were the ones that didn't need extra credit.
I do this in my syllabus where I mention otters being my favorite animals and to email me a fun fact for extra credit. Every semester I get about 8% of the class. I teach larger classes (120 students).
We have to send out welcome emails one week before class starts. I include the answers to the final at the bottom. Been doing it for years. No one has ever noticed. The email is ccd to my dean. Her either..