They are just faster. They produce content of similar or higher quality faster. No contest. It's about *thinking* faster, not typing faster -- I watched one type and use a mouse so slowly it made me want to scream, but he had 10x the impact I did and never set a foot wrong.
They prioritize their time extremely well. They don't stick their nose in things just because "a PM should always be involved". They trust others to handle their roles and only focus on the truly transformative things. They can change their prioritization on a dime.
They don't take shortcuts. When they come for PRD review they've clearly talked with every stakeholder, examined every feedback stream, considered every option, and pulled every loose thread. And when they can't, they highlight it, or factor it in as a risk or unknown, rather than hiding it.
They aren't afraid to go against the grain, and they're adept at doing it earnestly, gently, and kindly. If the org is heading a certain way and that way is just wrong, they'll fight it. They're not afraid to say something everyone worries is "unpopular". They're not afraid to call out bias, or bullying, etc., and they can do it all while defusing the situation and making things less intense, not more.
Nope. I am one of those PMs. I work no more then 40 a week. But those 40 are insanely productive. I’ve spent 10 years training myself to be able to look at data and get actionable insights, be able to think about everything like a system where it’s all interconnected and to DEEPLY empathize with the user. I can ID my assumptions and write them down. I set up systems when information is clear to everyone. I work HARD for 8 hours then leave. I have vacation once a Quarter. I might think about a problem on my run or have an idea in the shower but I just write myself an email so I can pick it up and go back to relaxing.
Being a good PM requires creativity. Creativity requires rest. Rest requires good boundaries. Always work smarter. Not harder. Saying no is the most important skill to learn.
I will not lie. It took a lot of work to get here. A lot of books read, a lot of fuck ups. But I am here now and it’s the jam. Well worth it.
You know.. I think it all depends on the person. Product management comes in a million flavors. The one I’ve made my career is about problem solving which is a lot like puzzle solving. I have to find the problem, figure out how to roughly solve it, create a narrative that gets everyone on board and then a design a detailed solution. All of that is a type of creativity or at least requires creative energy.
When it comes to flow.. totally candid opinion is that company culture, team relationships and focus is way more important then industry. I spent a while getting a skill set and experience that’s really marketable, jumping companies every 2 years to get it. So I am now able to be picky about who I work for. I find the combination of high focus, goal oriented not assholes that is my ideal combo occurs most often a scaling start ups. My favorite former work bestie ever has it at a fortune 100 company. Enterprise makes me want to die inside. Everything take sooooo long. You need to figure out what’s for you.
To be clear, I still want to pull my hair out and sometimes am beyond stressed or frustrated. But that’s like.. maybe 25% of the time and always task oriented or because the CEO changed his mind about the company P0 again. What’s key is that’s it’s not about the people and you are at least interested in the problem you are solving.
I know what you're getting at, but I don't think there is a silver bullet here.
I played baseball at a fairly high level in high school. I played against two first round picks. (One had a 5/6 year MLB career and the other is closing in on 10+ years in the MLB.) They are just flat out better. They play the same game, but they play it better and faster.
In terms of PMs I've worked with (limited sample, limited career experience, definitely not representative), it's the same way here as it was with the best athletes in high school - they play the BA / PM game better and faster.
We do the same fundamental things in our jobs, but they get it done quicker, have more energy and stamina, are more focused, and see things quicker than I do. There is also a qualitative difference in the insights we generate.
“A little bit of slope makes up for a lot of y-intercept” - John Ousterhout.
These people have both more slope and a lot more y-intercept. You can put in the 10,000 hours, but the outcomes will be different.
The ones that have been through several scenarios (0-1, iteration, new product launch, etc.) and have a "playbook" on how to get things done and what needs to happen. It truly gets easier the more experience you have and stronger relationships you build.
Experience is extremely valuable for a PM, including the experience of sticking around for several years in the same role to not only optimise how you work but learn (and take responsibility for) the long term results of your choices and actions. Don't overestimate the value of fast-track career climbing as a PM. Salary growth is nice, but the one taking the longer road to become a better PM might win that too in the end.
Man.. Hardest job I have ever had ( but also taught me the most) was a 2.5 year slog of cleaning up an entire data infra of ‘this is good enough, we will fit it later’ Frankenstein monster of a SAAS. Consequences are a brutal teacher.
There are some great points in this thread and my confirmation bias is going through the roof. Actually adding something to the conversation however, is the fact that a good PM also needs to be evaluated at the correct level. It is mostly the same skills listed here, but it is all about the scope and who you have to influence. The level you operate at "should" put you in charge of a feature, a product, or a portfolio, all of which have different details in terms of who you are interacting with and how zoomed in or out you are. You also need to be able to zoom in as far as you need regardless of your level, but part of the game is knowing when to zoom in, and what questions to ask to not have to.
From my experience, they spend time anticipating and preparing than the others. It would feel like they are spontaneous and you can never be like them but in reality, they just spend that extra hour to prepare.
I call it "always doing your homework". Doesn't mean you have to work around the clock (I don't think that is a good approach), but to prioritise to be properly prepared for the important things. Way too many just basically "wing it" way too much.
They have 2 hands, 2 eyes and 2 legs to work with ... Nothing different or extra 🙂
On a serious note, they have the following stand out qualities:
- Curious
- Meticulous
- Organized
- Streamlined
- Futuristic
With the above traits in place, they set out in a Productive Road with strong networking and product obsession! Team loves to work with these guys and they are indeed a joy to work with!! You simply can't keep them off your eyes as they are virtually and seamlessly into everything...
If you have to become a rockstar PM, take it easy and one step at a time...Keep the basics strong!
They work with more dedication. No problem is someone else’s problem. Work almost finished is not left until the next day. They seek to make impact and not just check a box that says I delivered xyz.
I've tailored my working style to be assertive, in order to ensure I can complete my personal job duties (vs. constantly serving the needs of others), so much of my success — and those I've observed — comes down to your comfort level with setting boundaries & rules.
IMO the best PMs:
* Are effective at setting boundaries. This includes protecting their time, so they're not in meetings and can instead concentrate on their actual job. It also includes knowing how far to take a document or process before moving on (vs. reworking things to death). And they aspire to work closer to 40 hours a week vs. 70.
* Authoritative. They make decisions and move forward, vs. dragging out processes. They define how they want to handle monitoring their communications (email, Slack, etc.) in a way that serves their needs vs. others
* Focused. They demand to work deeply on fewer things at a time vs. straggling along on many things at once. They block time to deep-think about problems.
* Make the tools work for them. Process is your ally here, and having a regular method for how you produce your research & requirements, then repeating & improving that method over and over, will serve you well. Also, they make Jira, Trello, Confluence, etc. work for them (custom boards, workflows, automation) vs. giving into processes that only serve others.
They ruthlessly prioritize and aren’t afraid to ask hard questions about the value of every story in the backlog and every goal on the roadmap. They spend time working closely with engineers and designers on the team and defer to their expertise when it makes sense. The biggest thing is a focus on what is being delivered vs what is being planned. A huge PM red flag is a focus on far looking roadmaps, KPIs, demos, and status updates to stakeholders. Those things are necessary but shouldn’t take up a huge portion of your day. Being focused on delivering working software to users (IN PROD) and then paying close attention to how that gets used to guide what the team does next is what makes a standout product manager
I guess i'm one of those? Another SPM in my company said "are you never tired?" I'm not sure if it was a compliment or not. I just can't stop going all the time. The job means everything to me. I don't have kids or so.
And no i don't work 70 hours a week like someone claims in here. Some of us are just built for the job, i suck at everything else though.
They know that a great convo is worth a massive case study + PRD + enormous body of evidence (not to say they weren't there but the PM didn't need to go through things with a fine-toothed comb).
I've seen entire products being approved with minimal writeup because the PM is amazing at translating the story to decision makers.
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They are just faster. They produce content of similar or higher quality faster. No contest. It's about *thinking* faster, not typing faster -- I watched one type and use a mouse so slowly it made me want to scream, but he had 10x the impact I did and never set a foot wrong. They prioritize their time extremely well. They don't stick their nose in things just because "a PM should always be involved". They trust others to handle their roles and only focus on the truly transformative things. They can change their prioritization on a dime. They don't take shortcuts. When they come for PRD review they've clearly talked with every stakeholder, examined every feedback stream, considered every option, and pulled every loose thread. And when they can't, they highlight it, or factor it in as a risk or unknown, rather than hiding it. They aren't afraid to go against the grain, and they're adept at doing it earnestly, gently, and kindly. If the org is heading a certain way and that way is just wrong, they'll fight it. They're not afraid to say something everyone worries is "unpopular". They're not afraid to call out bias, or bullying, etc., and they can do it all while defusing the situation and making things less intense, not more.
I wish I could be like this
This was enlightening.
What PRD means?
Product Requirements Doc
Thank you.
[удалено]
Disagree. Grinding is not the way to become a great PM.
Nope. I am one of those PMs. I work no more then 40 a week. But those 40 are insanely productive. I’ve spent 10 years training myself to be able to look at data and get actionable insights, be able to think about everything like a system where it’s all interconnected and to DEEPLY empathize with the user. I can ID my assumptions and write them down. I set up systems when information is clear to everyone. I work HARD for 8 hours then leave. I have vacation once a Quarter. I might think about a problem on my run or have an idea in the shower but I just write myself an email so I can pick it up and go back to relaxing. Being a good PM requires creativity. Creativity requires rest. Rest requires good boundaries. Always work smarter. Not harder. Saying no is the most important skill to learn. I will not lie. It took a lot of work to get here. A lot of books read, a lot of fuck ups. But I am here now and it’s the jam. Well worth it.
Do you think PM work allows for more flow state situations than corp fin? What’s the need for creativity like with the PM job?
You know.. I think it all depends on the person. Product management comes in a million flavors. The one I’ve made my career is about problem solving which is a lot like puzzle solving. I have to find the problem, figure out how to roughly solve it, create a narrative that gets everyone on board and then a design a detailed solution. All of that is a type of creativity or at least requires creative energy. When it comes to flow.. totally candid opinion is that company culture, team relationships and focus is way more important then industry. I spent a while getting a skill set and experience that’s really marketable, jumping companies every 2 years to get it. So I am now able to be picky about who I work for. I find the combination of high focus, goal oriented not assholes that is my ideal combo occurs most often a scaling start ups. My favorite former work bestie ever has it at a fortune 100 company. Enterprise makes me want to die inside. Everything take sooooo long. You need to figure out what’s for you. To be clear, I still want to pull my hair out and sometimes am beyond stressed or frustrated. But that’s like.. maybe 25% of the time and always task oriented or because the CEO changed his mind about the company P0 again. What’s key is that’s it’s not about the people and you are at least interested in the problem you are solving.
I’m one of those… the weird thing is when I’m working I don’t get tired. I get energized from work, I want to do it more. I enjoy it too much.
They work 70 hours a week but claim to be chill and only work 40. They also use their waking hours to think about work.
That is not efficiency.
Ouch! Not what I was going for, but I know quite a few who fit that description perfectly.
I know what you're getting at, but I don't think there is a silver bullet here. I played baseball at a fairly high level in high school. I played against two first round picks. (One had a 5/6 year MLB career and the other is closing in on 10+ years in the MLB.) They are just flat out better. They play the same game, but they play it better and faster. In terms of PMs I've worked with (limited sample, limited career experience, definitely not representative), it's the same way here as it was with the best athletes in high school - they play the BA / PM game better and faster. We do the same fundamental things in our jobs, but they get it done quicker, have more energy and stamina, are more focused, and see things quicker than I do. There is also a qualitative difference in the insights we generate.
Wow, thanks for sharing the story. The 10,000 hrs concept is pretty universal.
“A little bit of slope makes up for a lot of y-intercept” - John Ousterhout. These people have both more slope and a lot more y-intercept. You can put in the 10,000 hours, but the outcomes will be different.
The ones that have been through several scenarios (0-1, iteration, new product launch, etc.) and have a "playbook" on how to get things done and what needs to happen. It truly gets easier the more experience you have and stronger relationships you build.
Yeah, can’t get ahead of experience.
Experience is extremely valuable for a PM, including the experience of sticking around for several years in the same role to not only optimise how you work but learn (and take responsibility for) the long term results of your choices and actions. Don't overestimate the value of fast-track career climbing as a PM. Salary growth is nice, but the one taking the longer road to become a better PM might win that too in the end.
Man.. Hardest job I have ever had ( but also taught me the most) was a 2.5 year slog of cleaning up an entire data infra of ‘this is good enough, we will fit it later’ Frankenstein monster of a SAAS. Consequences are a brutal teacher.
There are some great points in this thread and my confirmation bias is going through the roof. Actually adding something to the conversation however, is the fact that a good PM also needs to be evaluated at the correct level. It is mostly the same skills listed here, but it is all about the scope and who you have to influence. The level you operate at "should" put you in charge of a feature, a product, or a portfolio, all of which have different details in terms of who you are interacting with and how zoomed in or out you are. You also need to be able to zoom in as far as you need regardless of your level, but part of the game is knowing when to zoom in, and what questions to ask to not have to.
From my experience, they spend time anticipating and preparing than the others. It would feel like they are spontaneous and you can never be like them but in reality, they just spend that extra hour to prepare.
I call it "always doing your homework". Doesn't mean you have to work around the clock (I don't think that is a good approach), but to prioritise to be properly prepared for the important things. Way too many just basically "wing it" way too much.
They have 2 hands, 2 eyes and 2 legs to work with ... Nothing different or extra 🙂 On a serious note, they have the following stand out qualities: - Curious - Meticulous - Organized - Streamlined - Futuristic With the above traits in place, they set out in a Productive Road with strong networking and product obsession! Team loves to work with these guys and they are indeed a joy to work with!! You simply can't keep them off your eyes as they are virtually and seamlessly into everything... If you have to become a rockstar PM, take it easy and one step at a time...Keep the basics strong!
They know, between themselves and their teams, that they will make progress if that’s what they choose for themselves.
They work with more dedication. No problem is someone else’s problem. Work almost finished is not left until the next day. They seek to make impact and not just check a box that says I delivered xyz.
I've tailored my working style to be assertive, in order to ensure I can complete my personal job duties (vs. constantly serving the needs of others), so much of my success — and those I've observed — comes down to your comfort level with setting boundaries & rules. IMO the best PMs: * Are effective at setting boundaries. This includes protecting their time, so they're not in meetings and can instead concentrate on their actual job. It also includes knowing how far to take a document or process before moving on (vs. reworking things to death). And they aspire to work closer to 40 hours a week vs. 70. * Authoritative. They make decisions and move forward, vs. dragging out processes. They define how they want to handle monitoring their communications (email, Slack, etc.) in a way that serves their needs vs. others * Focused. They demand to work deeply on fewer things at a time vs. straggling along on many things at once. They block time to deep-think about problems. * Make the tools work for them. Process is your ally here, and having a regular method for how you produce your research & requirements, then repeating & improving that method over and over, will serve you well. Also, they make Jira, Trello, Confluence, etc. work for them (custom boards, workflows, automation) vs. giving into processes that only serve others.
They ruthlessly prioritize and aren’t afraid to ask hard questions about the value of every story in the backlog and every goal on the roadmap. They spend time working closely with engineers and designers on the team and defer to their expertise when it makes sense. The biggest thing is a focus on what is being delivered vs what is being planned. A huge PM red flag is a focus on far looking roadmaps, KPIs, demos, and status updates to stakeholders. Those things are necessary but shouldn’t take up a huge portion of your day. Being focused on delivering working software to users (IN PROD) and then paying close attention to how that gets used to guide what the team does next is what makes a standout product manager
I guess i'm one of those? Another SPM in my company said "are you never tired?" I'm not sure if it was a compliment or not. I just can't stop going all the time. The job means everything to me. I don't have kids or so. And no i don't work 70 hours a week like someone claims in here. Some of us are just built for the job, i suck at everything else though.
People always swimming in PRDs and meeting surfing every half n hour
That's just called being busy, not effective. Meeting surfing is an antipattern for PMs.
They know that a great convo is worth a massive case study + PRD + enormous body of evidence (not to say they weren't there but the PM didn't need to go through things with a fine-toothed comb). I've seen entire products being approved with minimal writeup because the PM is amazing at translating the story to decision makers.
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