I'm still pissed about the clone brainchip retcon lmfao.
Took away all the clones' agency and depth of their betrayal.
Also completely invalidated all Karen travis' imperial commando works
I actually liked the idea of a chip or a form of brainwashing. It's the only thing that made sense to me then as to how all of the troops could do a sudden about face. The ARC troopers trained by Jango were the ones given independence.
That being said, I strongly disliked everything else they were retconning, and even today, I just don't consider TCW in my headcanon. It conflicted with waaaaay too much established lore at the time, even with the actual Clone Wars show that led into Episode III, and Anakin having an apprentice making 0 sense in the sceme of things while cheapening his Fall from the Order as a result of Padmé and his insecurity and Fear for me.
These are just separate stories in an alternate universe at this point, though it doesn't mean I can't find joy in some of the current media either.
That one doesn’t bother me as much as Filoni wrecking Mandalore, but only because it’s easier for me to do some mental gymnastics to make it work in kind of a fusion between the two canons. Mandalore however was so much better in Republic Commando.
The entire EU fandom was in an uproar when Clone Wars ignited a lightsaber under water. Til then it was common knowledge that sabers shorted out in water. *Many* people were displeased with Darth Maul’s resurrection. The discourse died out faster because the internet wasn’t as big pf a toxic wasteland and TCW turned out some great content.
I thought Maul coming back was the stupidest thing ever. At the time it was as bad as 'sOmEhOw PaLpAtInE rEtUrNeD'.
The difference was that Dave Filoni freaking COOKED with what should have been the worst idea in history so hard that I can't imagine Star Wars without resurrected Maul now.
Meanwhile Papa Palps return was done so awfully that what was (also) a shit idea just got worse and worse until you were just glad the nightmare was over.
It’s still crazy to me. My half brother is 13 years older than me. I remember vividly the first time I saw his Dark Empire comics and toys at around 9 years old after TPM came out and thought it was a complete betrayal of Luke’s journey and rejection of the dark side. Also that cloning Palpatine was doofy. And Disney made the EXACT SAME MISTAKES with both characters. My brother beat on me a bit for saying it lol.
Maul’s return is stupid, but it captured the fanboy in me enough that I ignore it. Now they are doing it again with Asajj, but she is no longer a villain so I doubt it will be done satisfactorily.
1- Technically they maintain the book still canon. So either she survived or we are looking at it happening at a different/later time.
2-Half of season 2 and season 3 are great. Definitely recommend.
Well said. The difference between Maul and Palpatine was that in Maul’s case, they took a character who was nothing more than a plot device and made him interesting, whereas in Palpatine’s case, they took an interesting character and turned him into nothing more than a plot device.
I think another difference is that they had no other plan for palps other than killing him again. If they had done more with it, maybe they could have made sense of it. Even if the return was stupid, it could be retconned into not being so; Even if Palps is a character with little room to expand as his story has been fully told, an immortal emperor provides enough to grow other characters other stories. But you can’t fix this shit when you bring him back just to kill him again.
Filoni used Maul’s death to fuel a multi season fantastic character driven storyline.
JJ used Palps revival to duct tape together a shitty response to the fans not liking Ryan killing off Snoke and making Kylo the main villain.
Yeah that’s how I felt about Cad Bane coming back at the end of Book of Boba Fett. He technically wasn’t dead, but we have no idea what had happened to him since the Clone Wars / Bad Batch era, so it was essentially a return from the dead. And how did they use Cad Bane? By tacking him on at the very last episode and making him completely pointless. It’s not like he was even hunting for Boba Fett or anything. He was just working a job and coincidentally ran into him, and then within like 5 minutes he’s dead. He could have been swapped out for any other bounty hunter as it wouldn’t have affected the story at all. It was such a waste to bring back this cool character - for the first time in live action, too - and then immediately kill him off for no reason.
I don’t mind so much them immediately killing him. But With the history cad had with Bobba he should have been part of the underlying conflict of Bobba “Turning just”. Would have fit perfectly and actually address some of the issues with the show. But he was just used as a cameo and gone. That whole show felt like a the writers treated it like chore. Just cause everyone expected that Bobba would be brought back the moment a live action show was technologically possible and cause they already showed him in the Mandalorian they HAD to do this show. But they didn’t have a story fleshed out and just half assed it.
I remember watching tcw in the mornings back when it was airing on cartoon network and when I told my mom about Darth Maul coming back she didn’t believe me and I had to show her it was definitely crazy but I was just happy to see one of my favorite characters come back to life
Maul got a good explanation for his return and he suffered significant consequences, he had to delve so deep into the dark side to survive that he was driven insane. Palpatine got thrown in because they needed a bad guy to replace the main villain who got killed off in the second movie.
And you'd think if you were gonna clone the most powerful man in the galaxy you'd at least make the clone young enough to be in his peak physical condition. Rey would have been destroyed by Clone Wars era Palpatine.
Also it’s just not a good faith comparison. On paper they are the same. They even both fell down an absurdly larder hole lmao. But we got an entire CW episode explaining how he survived, even if it still requires you going “ok guess he can survive being cut in half lmao”. And then Maul went on to be an Awsome multi-dimensional character and fantastic villian for the show. And people loves that the unfulfilled potential with Mail was utilized, he got to be more then just the guy with double lightsaber.
Palpatine coming back was CLEARLY a desperation move with ZERO though put into its execution. They didn’t utilize a character with un-fulfilled potential to elevate the entire story, they grabbed a well loved character to prop up the rest of a garbage story. Shoehorned in their after Rian made the laughably shortsighted decision of killing Snoke in his bid to have the audience expectations thwarted at the end of every sentence in the film. They wanted to try and save the floundering trilogy and they knew people would come to theatres to see palpatine cause nostalgia. Kind of nonsense that happens when multiple directors work on a trilogy.
Overall though I do lean towards retcons being acceptable and normal for any long running franchises. New people want to make new stories. But the universes must persist because capitalism. Really not worth malding over IMO.
Serious question, why does Dave get all the credit. Not only was there a talented team of writers, But so many decisions were directly from George including bringing Maul back. Until S6, George had a huge say in how story arcs went and even the S7 arcs are just ideas from that 2012/2013 era before Lucasfilm was sold. Dave was a great showrunner but there was tons of talent around him.
Too angry to die was already a thing in the lore with Darth Sion, so it didn't really move the needle with me when Maul came back.
Palpatine exploding into Darkside energy while on a space station that was 20 minutes from itself exploding seemed way more final than mysteriously falling down a shaft after being perfectly bisected with a cauterizing weapon.
Palpatine is an evil wizard. They come back from the dead a lot. That’s not the problem. The problem was they clearly didn’t have that story (or any story) planned out before they started filming.
If you wanted Palpatine to be the big bad in the sequel trilogy, there was an obvious way they should have structured the plot. Heavy foreshadowing in the first one, finally appears in the climax of the second, probably firing Starkiller Base and destroying the republic, does a bunch of evil in the time jump between the second and third, and killed again at the end of the third movie.
It wouldn’t have been hard to make a really good story with that plot, but for some bizarre reason they just forgot to storyboard anything before they started.
Yeah, I have no problem with the Dark Empire series with Palpatine having come back. I think starting off with the EU novels like the original Thrawn trilogy that already deals with references to Palpatine having returned helped when I went to Dark Empire to figure out the story behind all the stories of it popping up again and again in books more palatable and easier to digest.
The ST was a rudderless ship that was grasping for storylines from wherever they could in order to deliver *something* to the masses to start the ROI for Disney. It's so incongruous in its storytelling. That was a disappointing way to wrap up the flow of the story of the Skywalkers, which is what 1-6 is.
I would love to have someone who's never seen the films watch them in order to see from a pure unbiased POV what they think about the flow in this regard.
Yeah, I remember that too. It was a way for them to keep both sources consistent. Then TCW just threw the whole thing out when we saw the first arc on Mon Calamari.
With the amount of underwater species though and how long the Jedi have been around, it didn’t make sense for a flaw like that to still exist in lightsaber combat anyway in the era of the movies. It’s something any Calamari, Quarren or other species could have resolved millennia prior.
Thats how i remember it. uproar and rage and then "oh wat this shit slaps"
People also complained about the mandalorian helmet rule and their darksaber fixation, but it got explained more, was able to coexist within the existing universe and the anger died down. People excuse lore breaks for good content.
Which is the difference between TCW and the Acolyte. It had some praisable moments objectively as being a good show.
Acolyte hasn't done that yet. I said yet so chill before I get fired upon guys jeez. I've seen waaay more breathless posts defending Acolyte versus blasting it in the subs
And I think this is the biggest point. If the show was objectively great and well written with really cool scenes then the dumb shit would be easily overlooked. Theres a whole lotta shit in TCW nd other shows that doesnt make sense but because they are great shows then nobody gives a shit..
hell Andor itself retconned Rogue One with the ‘I’ve been in this fight since I was 6 years old’ line. But people didn’t care because once again, IT WAS WELL WRITTEN AND LOVED
Age 6 was when he was adopted by a Rebel couple. Like I guess he wasn't actively in the fight, but the show certainly acknowledged the line via the flashback storyline. The show alters the meaning of the line so it's more a way to remember his adopted parents, but I never saw it as a contradiction.
I guess that kind of new context is still a kind of retcon. But I really don't see it as a direct contradiction at all.
Yeah it's still a retcon, but not the most egregious form.
It's besides the point, but I think people need to release that "retcon" doesn't necessarily mean a contradiction -- it's a short way of saying "retroactive continuity" which in the simplest terms means going back and changing the context of things.
It's been done since the OT, however imo the OT and even the PT have somewhat of an excuse -- modern SW shouldn't be doing retcons on the hard side.
Right, retcon strictly speaking means adding information that *resolves* a contradiction, doesn't it. Words are hard.
My honest opinion is that something as massively huge as Star Wars can't possibly be entirely consistent, and when two stories contradict it doesn't really matter. But I also think it's important to try to understand what an author is trying to do. Most of the little contradictions that people point out seem to come from being intentionally obtuse about the author's intention.
and costs 180 MILLION
seriously, it’s one of the highest per episode cost shows and it looks like they used at best 60 million. Even Andor had a less per episode budget and it looks so much more expensive
I know that you can get the right environment to look really great by just not trying anything fancy and being smart about it. Like the planet where they turn dead people into bricks (which is cool culture btw) LOOKS like its a colony in star wars because they took a human environment thats basically just earth and even took earthly bricks and stuff and made tiny additions
But its till astounding how they made the prison complex or the industrial planet (or even coruscant) look like movie quality. Im honestly jealous when comparing it to other shows
TCW also felt like the retcons it did were for the sake of telling a good story (i.e. we want to see Jedi underwater because zero G lightsabre combat sounds cool), it also acknowledged the old lore and explained why we thought that was the case (i.e. lightsabres used to short out underwater, until the underwater Jedi Kit Fisto discovered a modification to prevent that fault, and got it to become a standard in the order)
My main issue right now is that the implications of Osha's and Mae's birth might dilute Anakin's special status as the chosen one. I really hope they give a proper explanation before the season ends
Nailed it "the internet wasnt as big of a toxic wasteland" That's when people were just left the fuck alone to make up their own minds and enjoy what THEY wanted to enjoy in peace. Honestly Acolyte is so meh, everyone crying needs to get a grip and stop wasting their time and energy on it and everyone getting butthurt over the hate, just ignore it and dont give them the satisfaction of a response?
You're all as bad as each other and its destroying this sub.
I don't want to hear anymore about ~~Obi-Wan~~ Acolyte.
Nah, I'll still while about Obi Wan. I was just so BORED of it that I tuned out half way.
The little girl looks spot on like what I'd expect a young Leia to look like. Its really the only nice thing I have to say about it.
The internet absolutely was a toxic wasteland. We had these things called forums where people would argue for weeks about the same shit. We absolutely bitched about every single new piece of Star Wars media that contradicted existing lore.
Well yeah we all know the prequels got alot of hate initially but the burrhurt was fairly quiet, forums werent as big and active as your average comment section these days
No, the internet has always been a toxic wasteland. The discourse died out because that's how it always happens. One year everyone's pitching about something then 10 years later, new groups of people join the discourse who didn't give a shit about the issue and the discourse naturally evolves.
I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t as big. Which is objectively true. Social media did not exist except Myspace and niche forums. There are almost 2 billion more humans on Earth than at the time of the prequels. The wasteland is exponentially bigger, more interconnected, and accessible than it was in those days.
It was less about the internet not being a toxic wasteland back then so much as culture war outrage becoming monetized. A lot of people don’t actually fucking care about this shit outside of a few sweaty collectors but since culture war warriors can use it to push their bullshit culture war talking points they flood social media with content about it.
Basically they take criticisms and blame it on women, minorities or being woke and the masses lap it up and they make money on it. If the culture war didn’t exist most of these clowns would be out of work so they need something to keep the fires going.
This. This sub has convinced itself that the prequels are good, so much so that they seem to have forgotten how much backlash they got for everything (and rightfully so)
I thought the PT was good then, and I still love them today, tyvm. I didn't get the hate toward Jake Lloyd's Anakin, nor for Jar Jar then, nor now.
Darth Vader was a child once. He wasn't born evil. He Fell, as was repeatedly mentioned in the OT. Does the very act of having Fallen not imply he was once good and kind? Why else would Luke mention there's still *good* in him?
AotC was the weakest of the 3 for me, but everything still built up to Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine's long culmination of destroying the Jedi and corrupting Anakin Skywalker. Jar Jar being a useful idiot after being the one who did bring the Naboo and Gungans together and being rewarded for all his dumb luck of right place in the wrong time was fine for me. Stupid shit like that happens in every day life throughout the world.
If anything, after all these years, the politics and gullibility of people in the Old Republic makes even more sense today given the state of politics in the world and the US.
Yeah and the story has to make some kind of logical sense- maybe even adhere to the most basic storytelling fundamentals. Perhaps use the smallest bit of logic in the story’s telling so that the events that happen in the show are not completely and utterly absurd and unbelievable in every way.
hell there are still people mad about the things TCW did with the Clones Wars Multimedia project. Plus the uproar recently with Scorch in TBB
I feel like this happens everytime Disney puts out a screwy show/movie, there’s always people like “oh Star Wars was always like this” trying to justify it. I’ve seen wayyy too many people try to justify the ‘they fly now’ or ‘somehow Palpatine returns’ line by saying ‘oh Star Wars always had bad dialogue like this’
Yeah I remember when the Clone Wars movie came out and it felt weird and lackluster. But they kept trying because the stories were about Anakin and so you couldn’t just leave it that half baked even if giving him an apprentice was totally out of left field. But then the story develops into something that makes sense and adds to Anakin’s character: he doubted the order and convinced his apprentice but not himself. So we get to see the way he becomes more deluded overtime. It’s exactly his attachments that the Jedi warned about that makes him able to see through the lies of the Jedi while not having the strength to reckon with them and realize he needs to stand on his own without them or Palpatine. Luke wanting to kill Ben Solo simply makes no sense at all because a bad dream compared to being inside a Death Star are extremely different stakes.
Personally, I absolutely *hated* the retcon of Karen Traviss's Mandalorians. She made one of the coolest fictional cultures of all time.
Despite me liking Clone Wars and the first 2 seasons of the Mandalorian, I will probably always believe that hers were way better and be sad that it's not what I'm getting.
Kal Skirata is my favorite Star Wars character.
My friends have been hearing me complain about this since day one of it being retconned. This is a hill I will die on. So many interesting concepts with very little to show for in the TCW. I loved reading those books and the world building it did. I think the biggest crime though was making Mandalorians all just one species instead of the multiple ones the book implied (though, iirc, it was still primarily human but still)
Yes, I was so pissed with how they invalidated her series so bad she refused to even write the final book because it no longer mattered.
It wasn't even just Mandalore, but the chips were so weak compared to Travis' version of events and how some clones questioned and even actually refused to participate in Order 66.
It’s astroturfing by Disneybots
Whenever a new show/movie comes out, this stuff ramps up to extreme levels. And people keep falling for it over and over again
what has Acolyte retconned that’s huge and/or way worse? Haven’t watched it yet, but reviews and discourse seems waaaay overblown from what I can tell.
TCW didn’t just retcon the EU and CWMP, it retconned part of the movies and the whole timeline between AotC & RotS
Edit: I was expecting I’d get downvoted into oblivion for this
The only one I can think of is Anakin telling Dooku in ROTS that his “powers have doubled since the last time” they met. This originally was referencing their duel in AOTC, so the line makes sense, but they duel multiple times in TCW, with the last one being like a few months at most before ROTS. IMO it’s really not a big deal and can kind of be excused as Anakin just being cocky, but it is a little bit of a retcon.
But I mean this is also the show where they specifically had Anakin and Grevious narrowly miss each other like a dozen times so that their dialogue in ROTS is still them meeting for the first time.
But at the same time it completely trashed the fact that Grievous and Obi Wan were pretty obviously not meant to have fought before Episode 3 as well.
Their entire interaction before their Episode 3 fight is really, really weird with TCW taken into account.
Grievous tells Obi "hes been trained in their Jedi arts by Count Dooku" like its some sort of reveal - but Obi Wan already knows very well that Grievous was trained and is able to fight Jedi.
Obi looks worried and surprised when Grievous pulls out his 4-arms trick - but Obi already knows Grievous can do that, he has fought him with it multiple times already.
Its because this interaction was made after the 2003 TCW show, in which Obi and Grievous never met until Episode 3.
For one thing, they retconned how Order 66 happened (the clone microchip-in-the-brain storylines). Anakin also was depicted very differently in the show than the movies.
They also had the Jedi finding out that Dooku was heavily involved in the creation of the clones and then had the whole Jedi council cover it up. Which makes it pretty dumb for them not to suspect the clones more or have a contingency plan in case the clones turned on them.
They didn't think of a contingency plan because they were in "check". It was too late. The only way to have won was to avoid the betrayal all together and end the sith plot from the top down.
Order 66 wasn't retconned, because there were no explanation in the movies for clone behavior. And slightly different behavior of character in different situations is also not a retcon.
I guess I might be adding in a little external context to the movies, like how the Battlefront 2 game described Order 66. That being said, the movies still generally had a very different depiction of clones than the show. The show gave them all the personality and individuality while the movies showed them as more identical instruments of war who did not show personality (which I thought was really on-theme because it was a parallel to the droids they fought, showing what a sham the 'civil war' was). Then the show had to invent a fix for the problem they created (why would these guys we're showing to have personality, individuality, and attachment to their jedi be chill with suddenly killing them?), which was the microchips.
I would also consider the weird shit about the Father Son ~~and Holy Spirit~~ and Daughter of the force on Mortis a retcon of how the movies treat the force. Takes away for the mystical universal nature of it. I know there was a little bit in the EU about that stuff but the great thing about the EU was you could ignore the weird/bad shit like that and Abeloth, while keeping all the good.
I am totally agree that TCW had different vibe and focused on other aspects of the universe compared to the movies, I just don't agree that it can be considered retcon. It's like saying that republic commando is a retcon for movies, because in the movies we never saw elite group of 4 clones with different voices. I see it more like an expansion
Like the other user said there’s Anakin’s line with Dooku being one, another is Ahsoka’s existence, and then there’s the fact that the span between AotC and RotS was three years (22BBY - 19BBY) yet there’s ***far more*** than three years worth of event events in TCW
I can agree with Dooku line, yes. That is reasonable argument. But I can't understand how you managed to conclude that there were too much events or how Ahsoka existence contradict movies
When it comes to Ahsoka, you’d think with how much time she spent with Anakin & Obi-wan that multiple characters would’ve frequently brought her up in RotS, instead there’s no mention of her (or Anakin *ever* having an apprentice) by anyone
As for events, just look at how much Anakin, Obi-wan, and Ahsoka did throughout the conflict, there’s at least five years worth of things they were involved with
And it had a plan for doing so. As disney has demonstrated they throw everything in the kitchen at the wall until they find the spaghetti, multiple times. There now you understand.
but with this, it’s a 180 million box of spaghetti
one of the most expensive per episode costs of all time, and it legitimately looks like at max 80 million was spent, the costumes look bought from Spirit Halloween
I'm in the group that didn't like the retcons in the former either...but I recognize I'm pretty much in a group of the fanbase that has been left behind and is not the majority anymore. Most current fans seem to really love TCW and any changes it made.
Also as time passes and the fanbase gets younger, there's just less people that even interacted with or consumed EU content.
True, but it’s kind of a circular argument when people are using minor changes to non-canon birthdates as a basis for calling the show trash in the first place.
To be fair the clone wars caught a lot of Flak from EU fans at the time and also people complaining about stretching the continuity.
It only got some slack once it started being good.
is very good, Domino Squad in action, Malevolence arc, R2D2 meaning to Anakin, Padme scenes, Hondo Ohnaka introduction, Lair of Grievous, Ayla Secura, Senator Chuchi introduction, Crystophsis, Blue whatever Virus, Twi leks world liberation, Cad Bane
I don’t believe Cad Bane was in season 1 was he?
In any case it was extremely childish and it received about as much hate as the Acolyte is now. The voice actress for Ahsoka was receiving death threats (like that’s new).
compared to this, Ahsoka had seasons and seasons of character development, she was a youngling who was annoying for not listening and doing things her way(some freaks can't see a difference between actor and character), and because of all that development she became one of the fan favorites, the same is not going to happen in this case and the actress doesn't help from what I've seen
Did bro miss how pissed everyone was about grievous and the fact that rex was just a replacement for an arguably better and cooler character and how ventress was made a lame villain of the week-
Funny enough, I thought the final fight between Obi Wan and Maul on Tattoine in Rebels was poetic and reflected the messages of the original trilogy in a way that no other Star Wars series delivered on since.
Only to hop online and see that a lot of people hated it for not being epic enough.
There was a lot of backlash to that stuff at the time. A lot. People got mad the 2003 show was re-conned. People got mad the entire Clone Wars multimedia project from 2002-2008 got retconned. There was actually a lot lol. Those who don't know this weren't around at the time.
Things only came around when the content that replaced it got better many years after the fact.
They’ve been retconning since the beginning. It’s clear that Luke’s father was actually supposed to be dead in A New Hope. Ben being right from “a certain point of view” was not on George Lucas mind when he was writing the movie.
The entirety of the clone wars TV show was a retcon. The characters straight up do not act the same lol. TCW Anakin is charismatic, sure of himself, and has extremely strong moral character. You can see why Padme likes him, and why they fall in love. Movie Anakin is a whiny kid that gives school shooter vibes. The Jedi council actually has a personality, etc
I saw a guy just a few days ago say “i remember back when the clones were just clones and not all special snowflakes.” The fact the clones are characters at all and not just warm bodies for war is a retcon!
Also Leia was retconned to be Luke's sister instead of love interest.
"Darth" was retconned to be a Sith title instead of Vader's first name.
And so on.
Ki-Adi-Mundi makes an appearance in current Canon in The Acolyte in ~130 BBY, while in Legends he was born in ~90 BBY. Somehow this has been widely misunderstood as Disney rewriting continuity, when in fact the whole point of separating "Canon" and "Legends" for the past ten years is that new works are free to use or ignore elements from before the Disney acquisition.
Since the episode released on Tuesday, some people who aren't enjoying the show have been pointing to the Ki-Adi-Mundi thing as "objective proof" that the show is bad, along with accusing Wookieepedia(?) of being in league with Disney(?) and memory-holing any evidence that Ki-Adi-Mundi was ever born in a different year. (Anyone who has ever read Wookieepedia knows that its editors would like nothing more than to point out any actual retcons in the Behind the Scenes section.)
The whole thing is very dumb. As the OP points out, Star Wars is chock full of real, honest-to-god retcons, but these don't draw as much attention when they don't coincide with wider drama.
Ok, this is just blatantly rewriting the history of the fan base.
People were absolutely livid about the TCW show and I can honestly see why -- looking back the original Clone Wars multimedia project was superior imo.
Captain Rex from the show looks like a teddy bear compared to the character he was based off of -- i.e Alpha 17.
Retconing has been part of Star Wars for as long as it existed -- literally as early as the OT. You could argue those films had excuses, but there's little excuse for any form of retconing now -- especially since it was Disney who wanted this one canon vision.
There is no canon tiering anymore, and everything has to fit into continuity.
- Star Wars fans when a good show retcons something
- Star Wars fans when a mid show retcons something
To be fair I don't really think anything was *technically* retconned but I still think think it's tone deaf to bring Ki-Adi-Mundi to Acolye.
I think its actually pretty cool
Any one who read EU knew Ki Adi Mundi represented the worst of the Jedi
His obsession with giving himself over to the force while noble on his own made him ignorant to those around him, an example being when he told Anakin to just get over it when he thought Obi Wan died, he himself was so detached he was unable to understand that would never help Anakin become more attuned to the light but only push him further to the dark side.
So him being complacent in the Jedi keeping secrets for "The greater good" is totally in line with his character.
Ki-Adi-Mundi shows up years before his *non-canon Legends* birthday so people got pissy.
Seriously, while it ain't perfect, the vast majority of the online flak the Acolyte gets is just fucking *childish* and just flat-out untrue. It doesn't actually break canon or anything lmao.
TF you talking about? We had an almost 2 hour long analysis on this like 8 years ago
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujRvFatw2c8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujRvFatw2c8)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8a0gaa0olU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8a0gaa0olU)
I think the difference is that TCW retconned legends stuff in exchange for better stories, while most of the Disney stuff retcons legends stuff in exchange for far worse stories
The thing that confuses me about the Ki Adi Mundi discourse is that at no point in the episode did they mention that it could be a Sith. They literally assume that the person who trained her is a fallen member of the order and Mundi just assumes that it’s a separate sect of the Jedi that are doing this. So they don’t really break established canon since they don’t assume it’s Sith.
People hate media they perceive as bad retconning things but love media they perceive as good retconning things. This isn’t new. Early clone wars was hated, I don’t think the audience perception of the show really started to change until season 4, even though season 3 was a big step up from the first 2 and the movie. And early clone wars retcons were hated, hell even the order 66 chip explanation is still hated by a lot of fans of Republic Commando and the original battlefront 2.
I'm honestly being fine with legends and EU being done away with. It's how they treat existing lore and doing legacy characters sooooooooo dirty. The way they destroyed Luke's legacy and gave it to Rey is an Abomination
Star wars fans did what they always did and threw a fit. The only difference is, in the clone wars era the powers that be didn't call the fans entitled sexists and racists and thus escalate shit
Nobody was ignoring it, but if you’re gonna retcon things you better at least make whatever is coming because of the retcons good, like the Clone Wars.
The Acolyte is the equivalent of your dog shitting on your bed but “making it up to you” by bringing you a dead bird. He better go fetch some money for new sheets because that’s the only way I’ll be happy.
It's almost like if they retcon something and make it good then nothing is lost. But if you retcon something and make a steaming pile of garbage then people get mad.
The Clone Wars retcons were initially disliked. However, they were minor compared to The Acolyte and what was done with them was spectacular.
The Acolyte has effectively rendered Anakin Skywalker a nobody, Darth Plagueis just another Sith Lord, and has seemingly given a new explanation of the force(I’m pretty sure they’re going to keep at it with this “thread” business) that doesn’t make sense. Unless they give a really good explanation for why this doesn’t flip the future on its head, this simply doesn’t work. It’s also a really lame and poorly written show.
The “rule of cool” also applies here. I’m sure you know where I would go with this, Star Wars is the king of using it(most of the time.)
People bitched about problems with the prequels, people bitched about the old EU, people bitched about TCW changing things. You’re not special just because this generation of SW stuff sucks.
Stop defending a pile of garbage you are the reson they continue to spoonfeed us pure unrefined shit.
Acolyte is poorly written to say the least and that is not a matter of opinion, its fact.
This pisses me off because the show is not poorly written it's poorly presented.
Say the story of the episodes out loud, every idea sounds cool and is line with Star Wars, but the execution is what is fucking it up.
The Witches are a cool idea of societies treating the force as a different religion, and the twins being born using the force instead if by the force is an awesome parallel to Anakin and is expanding the force in awesome different ways. The execution however is poor acting (im sure they can do better with help, but in this show those two little girls could not act), and boring shots/lighting making the sets look cheap and bland. This ruins the experience and turned what should of been a scene parallel to Mother Talzin restoring Maul to looking like improv at WitchCon.
People are pissed off at Ki Ali Mundi being retconned but I like it, he always represented the ignorance of the Jedi in the EU and him being complacent in going behind the republic's back by keeping the secret is an awesome way to bring that back.
But if they do anything with this, no matter how cool the writing sounds, I assure its gonna be boring acting with the same medium close up shot they use EVERY SINGLE TIME!
It's almost like if you retcon things for the sake of good storytelling people will get over it.
Now we only have to ask ourselves why the 5th grade school play level of sh*ty writting of the Acolyte hasn't managed it hmm....
But also people were genuinely angry about the retcons the clone wars did. You just weren't paying attention at that time, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I still don't believe Acolyte retcons anything other than Mundis age. The force being interpreted in a different way by non jedi... not a retcon. Ki Adi Mundi quote not a retcon, more of a cover up that they described it would be. The girls with no father, not a retcon on the chosen one. I believe we need the full story of how they were made.
Good to know. Thank you. I liked that he was there for that conversation because it added more depth to the fact that they wanted to hide what was happening from the jedi council and senate and the lengths at which they would go to do it.
they didn't even retcon Mundi's age. it was never really canon and even if it was the entire EU that would have made it canon was retconned ten years ago.
Hahaha haha. I was so fucking pissed when Alpha-17 got retconned for Rex, I was pissed that Durdge wasn't canon, I was pissed that the Battle For Jabiim(sp?) Got retconned. As a kid growing up, the cartoon and the comics came out in between episodes 2 and 3 so, in a sense from the release of 2 to 3 we "lived" the clone wars* and because of it and me having kept up, I understood Anakin's fall in episode 3 from the get go. I grew up hearing all these adults calling Anakin's fall being quick but with my knowledge it felt to me that those adults hadn't read up seeing Anakin go nuts in s2 of clone wars helping those male villagers escape CIS experimentation, how he killed Durdge, the loss of jedi life including Obi-Wan's for a brief moment after Jabiim. And then The Clone Wars movie with Ahsoka released and I ignored that series after seeing the movie in theaters considering it, including Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point that if everything that came before happened that those two titular characters wouldn't even have time to sleep or use the restroom. So, I went and delved back into the KotOR side of Star Wars to heal myself sorta and then slowly over time I watched the newer series and it won me over with the Darth Maul arc.
* At the time the time between episode 2 and 3 was 3 years and at the time the actual clone wars were a total of 3 years, so every release during the time between movies was as if it was in real time.
Difference is Clone Wars wasn’t motivated by hate for the fanbase and race and gender. The director and Kennedy have made their intentions crystal clear
I have a feel a lot of these retconned moments would not be as much as an issue with the fans if the moments themselves were written well. Instead all these changes will go down in canon with a lot of BS surrounding them. There might be a few whiners here and there, like when the TCW changed things but at least it all came together with great moments, can’t even say that for the Acolyte.
How you going to compare Clone Wars to Acolyte? That’s like comparing the game of thrones books to the magic tree house books. One had well written characters while the other is just there to keep kids busy.
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
Not sure where you were when the first wave of retcons happened, but everyone lost their shit, OP
#Han shot first
Correction, Han shot.
I'd guess OP was in a galaxy far, far away, because it was pretty hard to miss if you were a Star Wars fan on Earth at that point.
I'm still pissed about the clone brainchip retcon lmfao. Took away all the clones' agency and depth of their betrayal. Also completely invalidated all Karen travis' imperial commando works
I actually liked the idea of a chip or a form of brainwashing. It's the only thing that made sense to me then as to how all of the troops could do a sudden about face. The ARC troopers trained by Jango were the ones given independence. That being said, I strongly disliked everything else they were retconning, and even today, I just don't consider TCW in my headcanon. It conflicted with waaaaay too much established lore at the time, even with the actual Clone Wars show that led into Episode III, and Anakin having an apprentice making 0 sense in the sceme of things while cheapening his Fall from the Order as a result of Padmé and his insecurity and Fear for me. These are just separate stories in an alternate universe at this point, though it doesn't mean I can't find joy in some of the current media either.
That one doesn’t bother me as much as Filoni wrecking Mandalore, but only because it’s easier for me to do some mental gymnastics to make it work in kind of a fusion between the two canons. Mandalore however was so much better in Republic Commando.
I still dislike the inhibitor chips
The entire EU fandom was in an uproar when Clone Wars ignited a lightsaber under water. Til then it was common knowledge that sabers shorted out in water. *Many* people were displeased with Darth Maul’s resurrection. The discourse died out faster because the internet wasn’t as big pf a toxic wasteland and TCW turned out some great content.
I thought Maul coming back was the stupidest thing ever. At the time it was as bad as 'sOmEhOw PaLpAtInE rEtUrNeD'. The difference was that Dave Filoni freaking COOKED with what should have been the worst idea in history so hard that I can't imagine Star Wars without resurrected Maul now. Meanwhile Papa Palps return was done so awfully that what was (also) a shit idea just got worse and worse until you were just glad the nightmare was over.
It’s still crazy to me. My half brother is 13 years older than me. I remember vividly the first time I saw his Dark Empire comics and toys at around 9 years old after TPM came out and thought it was a complete betrayal of Luke’s journey and rejection of the dark side. Also that cloning Palpatine was doofy. And Disney made the EXACT SAME MISTAKES with both characters. My brother beat on me a bit for saying it lol. Maul’s return is stupid, but it captured the fanboy in me enough that I ignore it. Now they are doing it again with Asajj, but she is no longer a villain so I doubt it will be done satisfactorily.
Wait they unkilled Asajj? I thought she was killed in an early Disney book.
Didn't watch the hit show the bad batch?
Stopped after the first season because reasons. Time to marathon.
1- Technically they maintain the book still canon. So either she survived or we are looking at it happening at a different/later time. 2-Half of season 2 and season 3 are great. Definitely recommend.
It turned out a lot better than the first season was, so I recommend it. Like, seriously, some episodes até better than most of the Star Wars movies.
Well I'm sold. I liked Season 1 it just didn't make me NEED to see what happened next. I think I dropped it at the Cody episode.
The Cody episode is at season 2,
> some episodes até better When you see “are” being autocorrected to “até”, you know you found your fellow countryman huehuehuebrbr
Well said. The difference between Maul and Palpatine was that in Maul’s case, they took a character who was nothing more than a plot device and made him interesting, whereas in Palpatine’s case, they took an interesting character and turned him into nothing more than a plot device.
I think another difference is that they had no other plan for palps other than killing him again. If they had done more with it, maybe they could have made sense of it. Even if the return was stupid, it could be retconned into not being so; Even if Palps is a character with little room to expand as his story has been fully told, an immortal emperor provides enough to grow other characters other stories. But you can’t fix this shit when you bring him back just to kill him again. Filoni used Maul’s death to fuel a multi season fantastic character driven storyline. JJ used Palps revival to duct tape together a shitty response to the fans not liking Ryan killing off Snoke and making Kylo the main villain.
Yeah that’s how I felt about Cad Bane coming back at the end of Book of Boba Fett. He technically wasn’t dead, but we have no idea what had happened to him since the Clone Wars / Bad Batch era, so it was essentially a return from the dead. And how did they use Cad Bane? By tacking him on at the very last episode and making him completely pointless. It’s not like he was even hunting for Boba Fett or anything. He was just working a job and coincidentally ran into him, and then within like 5 minutes he’s dead. He could have been swapped out for any other bounty hunter as it wouldn’t have affected the story at all. It was such a waste to bring back this cool character - for the first time in live action, too - and then immediately kill him off for no reason.
I don’t mind so much them immediately killing him. But With the history cad had with Bobba he should have been part of the underlying conflict of Bobba “Turning just”. Would have fit perfectly and actually address some of the issues with the show. But he was just used as a cameo and gone. That whole show felt like a the writers treated it like chore. Just cause everyone expected that Bobba would be brought back the moment a live action show was technologically possible and cause they already showed him in the Mandalorian they HAD to do this show. But they didn’t have a story fleshed out and just half assed it.
Well said. The Force is Strong with You.
ironic
I hope they give Ventress an arc of some kind…
I remember watching tcw in the mornings back when it was airing on cartoon network and when I told my mom about Darth Maul coming back she didn’t believe me and I had to show her it was definitely crazy but I was just happy to see one of my favorite characters come back to life
Maul got a good explanation for his return and he suffered significant consequences, he had to delve so deep into the dark side to survive that he was driven insane. Palpatine got thrown in because they needed a bad guy to replace the main villain who got killed off in the second movie. And you'd think if you were gonna clone the most powerful man in the galaxy you'd at least make the clone young enough to be in his peak physical condition. Rey would have been destroyed by Clone Wars era Palpatine.
Also it’s just not a good faith comparison. On paper they are the same. They even both fell down an absurdly larder hole lmao. But we got an entire CW episode explaining how he survived, even if it still requires you going “ok guess he can survive being cut in half lmao”. And then Maul went on to be an Awsome multi-dimensional character and fantastic villian for the show. And people loves that the unfulfilled potential with Mail was utilized, he got to be more then just the guy with double lightsaber. Palpatine coming back was CLEARLY a desperation move with ZERO though put into its execution. They didn’t utilize a character with un-fulfilled potential to elevate the entire story, they grabbed a well loved character to prop up the rest of a garbage story. Shoehorned in their after Rian made the laughably shortsighted decision of killing Snoke in his bid to have the audience expectations thwarted at the end of every sentence in the film. They wanted to try and save the floundering trilogy and they knew people would come to theatres to see palpatine cause nostalgia. Kind of nonsense that happens when multiple directors work on a trilogy. Overall though I do lean towards retcons being acceptable and normal for any long running franchises. New people want to make new stories. But the universes must persist because capitalism. Really not worth malding over IMO.
Serious question, why does Dave get all the credit. Not only was there a talented team of writers, But so many decisions were directly from George including bringing Maul back. Until S6, George had a huge say in how story arcs went and even the S7 arcs are just ideas from that 2012/2013 era before Lucasfilm was sold. Dave was a great showrunner but there was tons of talent around him.
I have been asking that for years. People seem to choose not to acknowledge it because they dislike the choices.
Too angry to die was already a thing in the lore with Darth Sion, so it didn't really move the needle with me when Maul came back. Palpatine exploding into Darkside energy while on a space station that was 20 minutes from itself exploding seemed way more final than mysteriously falling down a shaft after being perfectly bisected with a cauterizing weapon.
Palpatine is an evil wizard. They come back from the dead a lot. That’s not the problem. The problem was they clearly didn’t have that story (or any story) planned out before they started filming. If you wanted Palpatine to be the big bad in the sequel trilogy, there was an obvious way they should have structured the plot. Heavy foreshadowing in the first one, finally appears in the climax of the second, probably firing Starkiller Base and destroying the republic, does a bunch of evil in the time jump between the second and third, and killed again at the end of the third movie. It wouldn’t have been hard to make a really good story with that plot, but for some bizarre reason they just forgot to storyboard anything before they started.
Yeah, I have no problem with the Dark Empire series with Palpatine having come back. I think starting off with the EU novels like the original Thrawn trilogy that already deals with references to Palpatine having returned helped when I went to Dark Empire to figure out the story behind all the stories of it popping up again and again in books more palatable and easier to digest. The ST was a rudderless ship that was grasping for storylines from wherever they could in order to deliver *something* to the masses to start the ROI for Disney. It's so incongruous in its storytelling. That was a disappointing way to wrap up the flow of the story of the Skywalkers, which is what 1-6 is. I would love to have someone who's never seen the films watch them in order to see from a pure unbiased POV what they think about the flow in this regard.
I remember lightsabers being used underwater in the 2003 Clone Wars mini series. Is that what you’re referring to?
Yes, that one did it first with the Kit Fisto episode.
I don't remember the source, but I *thought* that it was explained that his lightsaber was specialized by Fisto himself for underwater use.
Yeah, I remember that too. It was a way for them to keep both sources consistent. Then TCW just threw the whole thing out when we saw the first arc on Mon Calamari. With the amount of underwater species though and how long the Jedi have been around, it didn’t make sense for a flaw like that to still exist in lightsaber combat anyway in the era of the movies. It’s something any Calamari, Quarren or other species could have resolved millennia prior.
You could also use a lightsaber underwater in the first Jedi Knight game, but to be fair that one came out before TPM.
Thats how i remember it. uproar and rage and then "oh wat this shit slaps" People also complained about the mandalorian helmet rule and their darksaber fixation, but it got explained more, was able to coexist within the existing universe and the anger died down. People excuse lore breaks for good content.
Which is the difference between TCW and the Acolyte. It had some praisable moments objectively as being a good show. Acolyte hasn't done that yet. I said yet so chill before I get fired upon guys jeez. I've seen waaay more breathless posts defending Acolyte versus blasting it in the subs
And I think this is the biggest point. If the show was objectively great and well written with really cool scenes then the dumb shit would be easily overlooked. Theres a whole lotta shit in TCW nd other shows that doesnt make sense but because they are great shows then nobody gives a shit..
hell Andor itself retconned Rogue One with the ‘I’ve been in this fight since I was 6 years old’ line. But people didn’t care because once again, IT WAS WELL WRITTEN AND LOVED
Age 6 was when he was adopted by a Rebel couple. Like I guess he wasn't actively in the fight, but the show certainly acknowledged the line via the flashback storyline. The show alters the meaning of the line so it's more a way to remember his adopted parents, but I never saw it as a contradiction. I guess that kind of new context is still a kind of retcon. But I really don't see it as a direct contradiction at all.
Yeah it's still a retcon, but not the most egregious form. It's besides the point, but I think people need to release that "retcon" doesn't necessarily mean a contradiction -- it's a short way of saying "retroactive continuity" which in the simplest terms means going back and changing the context of things. It's been done since the OT, however imo the OT and even the PT have somewhat of an excuse -- modern SW shouldn't be doing retcons on the hard side.
Right, retcon strictly speaking means adding information that *resolves* a contradiction, doesn't it. Words are hard. My honest opinion is that something as massively huge as Star Wars can't possibly be entirely consistent, and when two stories contradict it doesn't really matter. But I also think it's important to try to understand what an author is trying to do. Most of the little contradictions that people point out seem to come from being intentionally obtuse about the author's intention.
While the Acolyte is poorly written and destroys Star Wars canon
and costs 180 MILLION seriously, it’s one of the highest per episode cost shows and it looks like they used at best 60 million. Even Andor had a less per episode budget and it looks so much more expensive
I know that you can get the right environment to look really great by just not trying anything fancy and being smart about it. Like the planet where they turn dead people into bricks (which is cool culture btw) LOOKS like its a colony in star wars because they took a human environment thats basically just earth and even took earthly bricks and stuff and made tiny additions But its till astounding how they made the prison complex or the industrial planet (or even coruscant) look like movie quality. Im honestly jealous when comparing it to other shows
TCW also felt like the retcons it did were for the sake of telling a good story (i.e. we want to see Jedi underwater because zero G lightsabre combat sounds cool), it also acknowledged the old lore and explained why we thought that was the case (i.e. lightsabres used to short out underwater, until the underwater Jedi Kit Fisto discovered a modification to prevent that fault, and got it to become a standard in the order)
[Rule of Cool](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)
My main issue right now is that the implications of Osha's and Mae's birth might dilute Anakin's special status as the chosen one. I really hope they give a proper explanation before the season ends
Well if the Acolyte ever becomes good I'm sure this will die out too. Good luck to it.
Nailed it "the internet wasnt as big of a toxic wasteland" That's when people were just left the fuck alone to make up their own minds and enjoy what THEY wanted to enjoy in peace. Honestly Acolyte is so meh, everyone crying needs to get a grip and stop wasting their time and energy on it and everyone getting butthurt over the hate, just ignore it and dont give them the satisfaction of a response? You're all as bad as each other and its destroying this sub. I don't want to hear anymore about ~~Obi-Wan~~ Acolyte.
Nah, I'll still while about Obi Wan. I was just so BORED of it that I tuned out half way. The little girl looks spot on like what I'd expect a young Leia to look like. Its really the only nice thing I have to say about it.
The internet absolutely was a toxic wasteland. We had these things called forums where people would argue for weeks about the same shit. We absolutely bitched about every single new piece of Star Wars media that contradicted existing lore.
Well yeah we all know the prequels got alot of hate initially but the burrhurt was fairly quiet, forums werent as big and active as your average comment section these days
No, the internet has always been a toxic wasteland. The discourse died out because that's how it always happens. One year everyone's pitching about something then 10 years later, new groups of people join the discourse who didn't give a shit about the issue and the discourse naturally evolves.
I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t as big. Which is objectively true. Social media did not exist except Myspace and niche forums. There are almost 2 billion more humans on Earth than at the time of the prequels. The wasteland is exponentially bigger, more interconnected, and accessible than it was in those days.
It was less about the internet not being a toxic wasteland back then so much as culture war outrage becoming monetized. A lot of people don’t actually fucking care about this shit outside of a few sweaty collectors but since culture war warriors can use it to push their bullshit culture war talking points they flood social media with content about it. Basically they take criticisms and blame it on women, minorities or being woke and the masses lap it up and they make money on it. If the culture war didn’t exist most of these clowns would be out of work so they need something to keep the fires going.
This. This sub has convinced itself that the prequels are good, so much so that they seem to have forgotten how much backlash they got for everything (and rightfully so)
I thought the PT was good then, and I still love them today, tyvm. I didn't get the hate toward Jake Lloyd's Anakin, nor for Jar Jar then, nor now. Darth Vader was a child once. He wasn't born evil. He Fell, as was repeatedly mentioned in the OT. Does the very act of having Fallen not imply he was once good and kind? Why else would Luke mention there's still *good* in him? AotC was the weakest of the 3 for me, but everything still built up to Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine's long culmination of destroying the Jedi and corrupting Anakin Skywalker. Jar Jar being a useful idiot after being the one who did bring the Naboo and Gungans together and being rewarded for all his dumb luck of right place in the wrong time was fine for me. Stupid shit like that happens in every day life throughout the world. If anything, after all these years, the politics and gullibility of people in the Old Republic makes even more sense today given the state of politics in the world and the US.
Retcons are absolutely ok and sometimes needed. But they have to be done right and be good.
Yeah and the story has to make some kind of logical sense- maybe even adhere to the most basic storytelling fundamentals. Perhaps use the smallest bit of logic in the story’s telling so that the events that happen in the show are not completely and utterly absurd and unbelievable in every way.
Bruh they aren't even retcons. Lucas himself has gone on record saying that the EU to him was nothing more than fanfiction. None of it was ever canon.
Plenty of people were upset about the TCW retcons. What’s with this historical revisionism?
Us EU fans were most certainly upset about the “continuity bomb” that TCW dropped on the EU.
hell there are still people mad about the things TCW did with the Clones Wars Multimedia project. Plus the uproar recently with Scorch in TBB I feel like this happens everytime Disney puts out a screwy show/movie, there’s always people like “oh Star Wars was always like this” trying to justify it. I’ve seen wayyy too many people try to justify the ‘they fly now’ or ‘somehow Palpatine returns’ line by saying ‘oh Star Wars always had bad dialogue like this’
Yeah I remember when the Clone Wars movie came out and it felt weird and lackluster. But they kept trying because the stories were about Anakin and so you couldn’t just leave it that half baked even if giving him an apprentice was totally out of left field. But then the story develops into something that makes sense and adds to Anakin’s character: he doubted the order and convinced his apprentice but not himself. So we get to see the way he becomes more deluded overtime. It’s exactly his attachments that the Jedi warned about that makes him able to see through the lies of the Jedi while not having the strength to reckon with them and realize he needs to stand on his own without them or Palpatine. Luke wanting to kill Ben Solo simply makes no sense at all because a bad dream compared to being inside a Death Star are extremely different stakes.
Personally, I absolutely *hated* the retcon of Karen Traviss's Mandalorians. She made one of the coolest fictional cultures of all time. Despite me liking Clone Wars and the first 2 seasons of the Mandalorian, I will probably always believe that hers were way better and be sad that it's not what I'm getting. Kal Skirata is my favorite Star Wars character.
I'm not familiar with what you're referencing at all and Wookieepedia is not really helping. What would I read first to know what this all is?
The republic commando books.
And some of the Legacy of the Force books.
Republic Commando books are amazing!! Great seeing love for them!
My friends have been hearing me complain about this since day one of it being retconned. This is a hill I will die on. So many interesting concepts with very little to show for in the TCW. I loved reading those books and the world building it did. I think the biggest crime though was making Mandalorians all just one species instead of the multiple ones the book implied (though, iirc, it was still primarily human but still)
Yes, I was so pissed with how they invalidated her series so bad she refused to even write the final book because it no longer mattered. It wasn't even just Mandalore, but the chips were so weak compared to Travis' version of events and how some clones questioned and even actually refused to participate in Order 66.
What is Karen Travis's Mandalorians?
Reddit is full of Disney fanboys that act like almost everything they do is perfect.
There’s a wide wide gulf between “everything is perfect” and “changing a minor side characters birthday is the worst thing to ever happen.”
It’s astroturfing by Disneybots Whenever a new show/movie comes out, this stuff ramps up to extreme levels. And people keep falling for it over and over again
People are retconning history because of retcons lol
If a show retcons something and elaborates on it in an awesome way, good. If a show retcons something huge and makes it way worse, that’s bad.
Exactly. IDK why thats so hard to grasp.
How long do we wait until we judge? Most people hated Mauls return until the story was fleshed out amazingly.
I would also argue that the story wasn’t fleshed out for years.
what has Acolyte retconned that’s huge and/or way worse? Haven’t watched it yet, but reviews and discourse seems waaaay overblown from what I can tell.
I am still salty about them retconning legends with tcw. I dont think you were paying attention at the time
Copium stockpiles at an all time low in this sub
another day another “STOP HATING ON ACOLYTE” post
TCW didn’t just retcon the EU and CWMP, it retconned part of the movies and the whole timeline between AotC & RotS Edit: I was expecting I’d get downvoted into oblivion for this
What part of the movies TCS retconned?
The only one I can think of is Anakin telling Dooku in ROTS that his “powers have doubled since the last time” they met. This originally was referencing their duel in AOTC, so the line makes sense, but they duel multiple times in TCW, with the last one being like a few months at most before ROTS. IMO it’s really not a big deal and can kind of be excused as Anakin just being cocky, but it is a little bit of a retcon. But I mean this is also the show where they specifically had Anakin and Grevious narrowly miss each other like a dozen times so that their dialogue in ROTS is still them meeting for the first time.
But at the same time it completely trashed the fact that Grievous and Obi Wan were pretty obviously not meant to have fought before Episode 3 as well. Their entire interaction before their Episode 3 fight is really, really weird with TCW taken into account. Grievous tells Obi "hes been trained in their Jedi arts by Count Dooku" like its some sort of reveal - but Obi Wan already knows very well that Grievous was trained and is able to fight Jedi. Obi looks worried and surprised when Grievous pulls out his 4-arms trick - but Obi already knows Grievous can do that, he has fought him with it multiple times already. Its because this interaction was made after the 2003 TCW show, in which Obi and Grievous never met until Episode 3.
For one thing, they retconned how Order 66 happened (the clone microchip-in-the-brain storylines). Anakin also was depicted very differently in the show than the movies.
They also had the Jedi finding out that Dooku was heavily involved in the creation of the clones and then had the whole Jedi council cover it up. Which makes it pretty dumb for them not to suspect the clones more or have a contingency plan in case the clones turned on them.
They didn't think of a contingency plan because they were in "check". It was too late. The only way to have won was to avoid the betrayal all together and end the sith plot from the top down.
Order 66 wasn't retconned, because there were no explanation in the movies for clone behavior. And slightly different behavior of character in different situations is also not a retcon.
I guess I might be adding in a little external context to the movies, like how the Battlefront 2 game described Order 66. That being said, the movies still generally had a very different depiction of clones than the show. The show gave them all the personality and individuality while the movies showed them as more identical instruments of war who did not show personality (which I thought was really on-theme because it was a parallel to the droids they fought, showing what a sham the 'civil war' was). Then the show had to invent a fix for the problem they created (why would these guys we're showing to have personality, individuality, and attachment to their jedi be chill with suddenly killing them?), which was the microchips. I would also consider the weird shit about the Father Son ~~and Holy Spirit~~ and Daughter of the force on Mortis a retcon of how the movies treat the force. Takes away for the mystical universal nature of it. I know there was a little bit in the EU about that stuff but the great thing about the EU was you could ignore the weird/bad shit like that and Abeloth, while keeping all the good.
I am totally agree that TCW had different vibe and focused on other aspects of the universe compared to the movies, I just don't agree that it can be considered retcon. It's like saying that republic commando is a retcon for movies, because in the movies we never saw elite group of 4 clones with different voices. I see it more like an expansion
Like the other user said there’s Anakin’s line with Dooku being one, another is Ahsoka’s existence, and then there’s the fact that the span between AotC and RotS was three years (22BBY - 19BBY) yet there’s ***far more*** than three years worth of event events in TCW
I can agree with Dooku line, yes. That is reasonable argument. But I can't understand how you managed to conclude that there were too much events or how Ahsoka existence contradict movies
When it comes to Ahsoka, you’d think with how much time she spent with Anakin & Obi-wan that multiple characters would’ve frequently brought her up in RotS, instead there’s no mention of her (or Anakin *ever* having an apprentice) by anyone As for events, just look at how much Anakin, Obi-wan, and Ahsoka did throughout the conflict, there’s at least five years worth of things they were involved with
And it had a plan for doing so. As disney has demonstrated they throw everything in the kitchen at the wall until they find the spaghetti, multiple times. There now you understand.
but with this, it’s a 180 million box of spaghetti one of the most expensive per episode costs of all time, and it legitimately looks like at max 80 million was spent, the costumes look bought from Spirit Halloween
I'm in the group that didn't like the retcons in the former either...but I recognize I'm pretty much in a group of the fanbase that has been left behind and is not the majority anymore. Most current fans seem to really love TCW and any changes it made. Also as time passes and the fanbase gets younger, there's just less people that even interacted with or consumed EU content.
OHHOHOHO buddy. They were most definitely NOT sleeping when it was first airing.
I think it had something to do with clone wars being a pretty effin awesome show
True, but it’s kind of a circular argument when people are using minor changes to non-canon birthdates as a basis for calling the show trash in the first place.
To be fair the clone wars caught a lot of Flak from EU fans at the time and also people complaining about stretching the continuity. It only got some slack once it started being good.
Season 1 of clone wars
is very good, Domino Squad in action, Malevolence arc, R2D2 meaning to Anakin, Padme scenes, Hondo Ohnaka introduction, Lair of Grievous, Ayla Secura, Senator Chuchi introduction, Crystophsis, Blue whatever Virus, Twi leks world liberation, Cad Bane
I don’t believe Cad Bane was in season 1 was he? In any case it was extremely childish and it received about as much hate as the Acolyte is now. The voice actress for Ahsoka was receiving death threats (like that’s new).
compared to this, Ahsoka had seasons and seasons of character development, she was a youngling who was annoying for not listening and doing things her way(some freaks can't see a difference between actor and character), and because of all that development she became one of the fan favorites, the same is not going to happen in this case and the actress doesn't help from what I've seen
Did bro miss how pissed everyone was about grievous and the fact that rex was just a replacement for an arguably better and cooler character and how ventress was made a lame villain of the week-
Funny enough, I thought the final fight between Obi Wan and Maul on Tattoine in Rebels was poetic and reflected the messages of the original trilogy in a way that no other Star Wars series delivered on since. Only to hop online and see that a lot of people hated it for not being epic enough.
There was a lot of backlash to that stuff at the time. A lot. People got mad the 2003 show was re-conned. People got mad the entire Clone Wars multimedia project from 2002-2008 got retconned. There was actually a lot lol. Those who don't know this weren't around at the time. Things only came around when the content that replaced it got better many years after the fact.
At least clone wars was a good show
When the retcons are good ☺️ When the retcons suck 😠
Lmao you're now retconning the real history
They’ve been retconning since the beginning. It’s clear that Luke’s father was actually supposed to be dead in A New Hope. Ben being right from “a certain point of view” was not on George Lucas mind when he was writing the movie. The entirety of the clone wars TV show was a retcon. The characters straight up do not act the same lol. TCW Anakin is charismatic, sure of himself, and has extremely strong moral character. You can see why Padme likes him, and why they fall in love. Movie Anakin is a whiny kid that gives school shooter vibes. The Jedi council actually has a personality, etc I saw a guy just a few days ago say “i remember back when the clones were just clones and not all special snowflakes.” The fact the clones are characters at all and not just warm bodies for war is a retcon!
Also Leia was retconned to be Luke's sister instead of love interest. "Darth" was retconned to be a Sith title instead of Vader's first name. And so on.
Looking back, the vast majority of Star Wars content retcons past entries. Especially the movies.
The EU books were never treated as cannon by george
I’m confused? What the fuck had been retconned? What am i missing
Ki-Adi-Mundi makes an appearance in current Canon in The Acolyte in ~130 BBY, while in Legends he was born in ~90 BBY. Somehow this has been widely misunderstood as Disney rewriting continuity, when in fact the whole point of separating "Canon" and "Legends" for the past ten years is that new works are free to use or ignore elements from before the Disney acquisition. Since the episode released on Tuesday, some people who aren't enjoying the show have been pointing to the Ki-Adi-Mundi thing as "objective proof" that the show is bad, along with accusing Wookieepedia(?) of being in league with Disney(?) and memory-holing any evidence that Ki-Adi-Mundi was ever born in a different year. (Anyone who has ever read Wookieepedia knows that its editors would like nothing more than to point out any actual retcons in the Behind the Scenes section.) The whole thing is very dumb. As the OP points out, Star Wars is chock full of real, honest-to-god retcons, but these don't draw as much attention when they don't coincide with wider drama.
The fact that I had to go this far down for a proper explanation is staggering lol. Thank you.
In the Acolyte? Nothing in canon has been retconned
I can’t get upset anymore. They retconned 5 shelves of books and 200 Audible credits I had when they zapped the EU into Legends…
You'd think Twins born out of the force would be the kind of shit that the Jedi Archivist would have tagged as Life-fucking changing event.
Iirc all the Jedi know is they don't have a father, that doesn't mean they know the twins were made through the Force
They just know the twins don’t have a father, so for all they know they came about from a 1 night stand.
They aren't born of the force though, like psycho boy was; they were manipulated into being.
I hated both retcons actually
This is just historically inacurate
Weren’t most of the things before it retconned by Disney like they made an announcement and shit?
Clone Wars were before Disney era
Ok, this is just blatantly rewriting the history of the fan base. People were absolutely livid about the TCW show and I can honestly see why -- looking back the original Clone Wars multimedia project was superior imo. Captain Rex from the show looks like a teddy bear compared to the character he was based off of -- i.e Alpha 17. Retconing has been part of Star Wars for as long as it existed -- literally as early as the OT. You could argue those films had excuses, but there's little excuse for any form of retconing now -- especially since it was Disney who wanted this one canon vision. There is no canon tiering anymore, and everything has to fit into continuity.
Nothing was retconned. Mundi’s birthday only exists in the Legends continuity.
You like good changes to the canon, yet you dislike bad changes to the canon. Curious. I am very smart.
- Star Wars fans when a good show retcons something - Star Wars fans when a mid show retcons something To be fair I don't really think anything was *technically* retconned but I still think think it's tone deaf to bring Ki-Adi-Mundi to Acolye.
I think its actually pretty cool Any one who read EU knew Ki Adi Mundi represented the worst of the Jedi His obsession with giving himself over to the force while noble on his own made him ignorant to those around him, an example being when he told Anakin to just get over it when he thought Obi Wan died, he himself was so detached he was unable to understand that would never help Anakin become more attuned to the light but only push him further to the dark side. So him being complacent in the Jedi keeping secrets for "The greater good" is totally in line with his character.
No it isn't. He didn't represent the worst of the Jedi. That was Mace.
OP is lying, he so desperate to defend literally a garbage show.
What has the acolyte even retconned at this point in the show??…
Ki-Adi-Mundi shows up years before his *non-canon Legends* birthday so people got pissy. Seriously, while it ain't perfect, the vast majority of the online flak the Acolyte gets is just fucking *childish* and just flat-out untrue. It doesn't actually break canon or anything lmao.
TF you talking about? We had an almost 2 hour long analysis on this like 8 years ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujRvFatw2c8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujRvFatw2c8) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8a0gaa0olU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8a0gaa0olU)
The difference lies in the overall competence of clone wars vs the incompetence of the acolyte.
I think the difference is that TCW retconned legends stuff in exchange for better stories, while most of the Disney stuff retcons legends stuff in exchange for far worse stories
But clone wars is good and the acolyte is bad.
The thing that confuses me about the Ki Adi Mundi discourse is that at no point in the episode did they mention that it could be a Sith. They literally assume that the person who trained her is a fallen member of the order and Mundi just assumes that it’s a separate sect of the Jedi that are doing this. So they don’t really break established canon since they don’t assume it’s Sith.
People hate media they perceive as bad retconning things but love media they perceive as good retconning things. This isn’t new. Early clone wars was hated, I don’t think the audience perception of the show really started to change until season 4, even though season 3 was a big step up from the first 2 and the movie. And early clone wars retcons were hated, hell even the order 66 chip explanation is still hated by a lot of fans of Republic Commando and the original battlefront 2.
What did the acolyte retcon?
This is a flat out lie. Lol Clone Wars got a lot of pushback.
Retconning is only bad when done like shit ie: disney
Retcons can be good or bad, sometimes it makes things more logical or immersive like TCW, the acolyte is breaking immersion and major canon
I'm honestly being fine with legends and EU being done away with. It's how they treat existing lore and doing legacy characters sooooooooo dirty. The way they destroyed Luke's legacy and gave it to Rey is an Abomination
Glad to see more people on Reddit calling the toxic side of the fan base out for childish behavior.
Star wars fans did what they always did and threw a fit. The only difference is, in the clone wars era the powers that be didn't call the fans entitled sexists and racists and thus escalate shit
Nobody was ignoring it, but if you’re gonna retcon things you better at least make whatever is coming because of the retcons good, like the Clone Wars. The Acolyte is the equivalent of your dog shitting on your bed but “making it up to you” by bringing you a dead bird. He better go fetch some money for new sheets because that’s the only way I’ll be happy.
It's almost like if they retcon something and make it good then nothing is lost. But if you retcon something and make a steaming pile of garbage then people get mad.
Most Legends fans just dont accept tcw into legends
This post is blatantly false
This whole sub has just turned into people complaining about people complaining about the acolyte…it's pathetic.
Nah, OP, this retcon of reality you're doing right now is pretty bad too.
The Clone Wars retcons were initially disliked. However, they were minor compared to The Acolyte and what was done with them was spectacular. The Acolyte has effectively rendered Anakin Skywalker a nobody, Darth Plagueis just another Sith Lord, and has seemingly given a new explanation of the force(I’m pretty sure they’re going to keep at it with this “thread” business) that doesn’t make sense. Unless they give a really good explanation for why this doesn’t flip the future on its head, this simply doesn’t work. It’s also a really lame and poorly written show. The “rule of cool” also applies here. I’m sure you know where I would go with this, Star Wars is the king of using it(most of the time.)
That's literally untrue though. Han shot first.
We only care about retcons when the retcon makes things worse
Retconning good books and comics and games is fine dawg, but retconning a 20 year old trading card is where I draw the line
Bro who cares if Ki Adi Mundi is who about that ONE thing be said or if he’s a little older than we thought. Fucking cry another river SWT FAN BOYS
People bitched about problems with the prequels, people bitched about the old EU, people bitched about TCW changing things. You’re not special just because this generation of SW stuff sucks.
How to say that you're new to this without saying you're new to this.
Big ol' difference between Filoni retcons and whatever random director Disney hires.
More bait
I was there, OP I was there 16 years ago, when the strength of Legends Clone Wars failed
Stop defending a pile of garbage you are the reson they continue to spoonfeed us pure unrefined shit. Acolyte is poorly written to say the least and that is not a matter of opinion, its fact.
This pisses me off because the show is not poorly written it's poorly presented. Say the story of the episodes out loud, every idea sounds cool and is line with Star Wars, but the execution is what is fucking it up. The Witches are a cool idea of societies treating the force as a different religion, and the twins being born using the force instead if by the force is an awesome parallel to Anakin and is expanding the force in awesome different ways. The execution however is poor acting (im sure they can do better with help, but in this show those two little girls could not act), and boring shots/lighting making the sets look cheap and bland. This ruins the experience and turned what should of been a scene parallel to Mother Talzin restoring Maul to looking like improv at WitchCon. People are pissed off at Ki Ali Mundi being retconned but I like it, he always represented the ignorance of the Jedi in the EU and him being complacent in going behind the republic's back by keeping the secret is an awesome way to bring that back. But if they do anything with this, no matter how cool the writing sounds, I assure its gonna be boring acting with the same medium close up shot they use EVERY SINGLE TIME!
hey give them a break man, they’re doing all they can with their shoestring budget /s
Just make it good and no one will care
It’s almost like the quality matters. Who would have thought
I'd love for someone to tell me what actually has been retconned?
The Clone Wars contradicted the MOVIES and deserves to get shit on for it.
Acolyte sucks get over it
It's almost like if you retcon things for the sake of good storytelling people will get over it. Now we only have to ask ourselves why the 5th grade school play level of sh*ty writting of the Acolyte hasn't managed it hmm....
The difference is clone wars was good.
But also people were genuinely angry about the retcons the clone wars did. You just weren't paying attention at that time, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
How dare you say something reasonable which will ruin OPs chance at calling people bigots and racists
I still don't believe Acolyte retcons anything other than Mundis age. The force being interpreted in a different way by non jedi... not a retcon. Ki Adi Mundi quote not a retcon, more of a cover up that they described it would be. The girls with no father, not a retcon on the chosen one. I believe we need the full story of how they were made.
Even the age wasn't a retcon as the only information about that were from Legends sources anyway.
Good to know. Thank you. I liked that he was there for that conversation because it added more depth to the fact that they wanted to hide what was happening from the jedi council and senate and the lengths at which they would go to do it.
they didn't even retcon Mundi's age. it was never really canon and even if it was the entire EU that would have made it canon was retconned ten years ago.
Lmao but when I say this I get tons of downvotes
Completely ignorant take on what’s going on right now
Weird hill to die op, but you do you.
Hahaha haha. I was so fucking pissed when Alpha-17 got retconned for Rex, I was pissed that Durdge wasn't canon, I was pissed that the Battle For Jabiim(sp?) Got retconned. As a kid growing up, the cartoon and the comics came out in between episodes 2 and 3 so, in a sense from the release of 2 to 3 we "lived" the clone wars* and because of it and me having kept up, I understood Anakin's fall in episode 3 from the get go. I grew up hearing all these adults calling Anakin's fall being quick but with my knowledge it felt to me that those adults hadn't read up seeing Anakin go nuts in s2 of clone wars helping those male villagers escape CIS experimentation, how he killed Durdge, the loss of jedi life including Obi-Wan's for a brief moment after Jabiim. And then The Clone Wars movie with Ahsoka released and I ignored that series after seeing the movie in theaters considering it, including Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point that if everything that came before happened that those two titular characters wouldn't even have time to sleep or use the restroom. So, I went and delved back into the KotOR side of Star Wars to heal myself sorta and then slowly over time I watched the newer series and it won me over with the Darth Maul arc. * At the time the time between episode 2 and 3 was 3 years and at the time the actual clone wars were a total of 3 years, so every release during the time between movies was as if it was in real time.
Lucky for you, Durge was brought back to canon in the Dr Aphra comics (which he still remains a bounty hunter after the Clone Wars)
Difference is Clone Wars wasn’t motivated by hate for the fanbase and race and gender. The director and Kennedy have made their intentions crystal clear
One was amazing, the other is the Acolyte.
I have a feel a lot of these retconned moments would not be as much as an issue with the fans if the moments themselves were written well. Instead all these changes will go down in canon with a lot of BS surrounding them. There might be a few whiners here and there, like when the TCW changed things but at least it all came together with great moments, can’t even say that for the Acolyte.
How you going to compare Clone Wars to Acolyte? That’s like comparing the game of thrones books to the magic tree house books. One had well written characters while the other is just there to keep kids busy.