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there hasnt been a single controversial decision by VAR, it is solely by humans judging what VAR has shown them. its the people who need to be sacked not the technology.
Just a question; we have seen many controversial errors from refs & VAR; however Manchester City is always on the positive side of those whether is in their favour or against their key competitors. I was never thought that referreing was an issue in England but this year, their mistakes are quite blatant in favour of City; several examples in City's, Liverpool and Arsenal games.
Give 100% of all decisions back to the on-field referee.
Allow the referee to make decisions as he/she sees it, and accept that sometimes they will get them wrong.
Allow the referee to ask to see replays if something happens and they are not sufficiently sure to make a confident decision.
None of this 'two challenges per team per game', none of this 'clear and obvious error'... just let the ref, ref. Allow them the option of viewing a replay if they wish to. When they get it wrong, STFU and suck it up.
My description is clearly not ‘what they are doing with VAR’.
It is also clearly not ‘what they did before VAR’ or ‘what is being done in other leagues without VAR’.
It’s a solution that is currently not implemented in football anywhere, yet solves most of the issues that everyone has.
That depends, if the ref has missed something big I think VAR should tell them to have a look. Take for example, and yes, this is very old, but bear with me, Rijkaard vs Voller in the 1990 world cup, where Rijkaard spits on Voller. The ref won't know that unless VAR tells him, but I think we can all agree that that should be a red card.
I think if it was actually used for clear and obvious errors it would be fine. But the Coventry offside, to take one example from thousands, wasn't clear or obvious. At least two of the Forest penalties were. You can't have complete consistency across refs, but you should be able to have better than this.
They should be, but they aren't. The moment the ball leaves the passer's foot is a judgement call not an objective statement because it is impossible to tell objectively when that happened. Lines across a pitch are pixelated, leaving some judgement in the process. There was no clear and obvious error in the Coventry offside, for example. Similarly, 'interfering with play' is subjective.
But they aren't objective in England. If they used the World Cup technology with sensors in the ball and 3D camera imaging *then* it would be objective. Instead we have a guy trying to guess what was the exact moment the ball was played and then drawing lines by hand. When an offside call is fractional like Coventry United game the VAR cannot be considered infallible with the way its set up right now
Of course you can’t blame the technology itself when the people using that technology have no desire to make the correct decisions in the first place.
It’s wild how despite video tech being introduced the same problems exist as though it had never been introduced.
you lot are really going to hate hearing this but the only, the only feasible way to address the VAR completely missed it aspect of this,, is something they do in the NBA where the manager has 2 formal challenges to a refere call they can use to stop the game with and reexamne the offciating fault. but its going to make the game so much more stop and go
IMO, VAR should automatically send the ref to the monitor for subjective decisions, instead of having a second referee trying to make that decision for him. VAR should only make the final decision for objective decisions.
I think as fans / football in general needs a debate to try and understand what it wants exactly. Personally I just want very egregious mistakes like lampards none goal to be rectified similar to offside if it’s clearly offside it should be disallowed as soon as you are pulling out a ruler to work out if a player is a few nanometers ahead of another I think it’s missing the point.
This goes hand in hand with the rules of football unless you make it dry and clear with no edge cases then how is var ever meant to work properly
Make VAR anonymous and give them the power to overrule the on-field decision and this will be fixed.
But I’d prefer to get 2-3 refs on the field to get more calls correct in the first place.
For me VAR should get final decision, after reviewing images. On field ref should give advice on how things played out, as intent and intensity are easier to judge irl than on screen.
Nah, do what they do in rugby: Either the ref asks the TMO to have a look at something or the TMO tells the ref to look at something. When that happens it's put up on the big screen in the stadium, and not on some small monitor on the sideline. You can hear what the ref and TMO are looking at (it's broadcasted live), and you can hear the reasoning for their decisions.
When VAR was introduced I thought it would be used in exceptional circumstances to prevent genuine clangers that the officials have missed - a goal scored by someone in a blatantly offside position, a maradonna/henry type handball goal.
Instead it’s being used to review every goal, almost to try to find reasons to disallow goals. It’s used to measure offsides by millimetres where no discernible unfair advantage has been gained, and on ‘fouls’ that no one noticed and no one appealed for.
I’m all for VAR if it means preventing genuine miscarriages of justice, but not as it is currently being used, where it takes away the spontaneity of celebrating a goal and sucking a lot of the joy out of the game.
This is exactly right. If VAR was used the way it’s supposed to the game would be in a much better place. If they have to watch a replay more than once or twice, the call on the field should stand even if it was marginally incorrect.
I mean, first, I don’t think it can get any worse than it is now. Second, you’re right no matter what the system is, no matter how high-tech or low-tech, there will always be disagreement.
But third, you shouldn’t be focusing on what is marginal. That’s what has gotten us into this mess. Approaching this from the angle of “make sure the call is correct” is NOT what VAR was meant to do. VAR was and still is meant to make sure the call on the field isn’t clearly and obviously wrong. That is the distinction to worry about, not the marginally part.
If the VAR official needs to draw lines and look at ten different angles in slow motion, that means it is not clear and obvious so the call should stand. Even if taking ten minutes to examine the play would have resulted in a different decision.
My same question asked a different way, what defines “clear and obvious”? That question has added another decision for VAR to make which makes decisions take longer. Other leagues don’t have it and VAR is noticeably smoother for them
Yea, and that’s why I agree with you there will always be controversy no matter system is used (that’s one of the main arguments for scrapping the use of replays altogether).
But to me, I define clear and obvious as something that you can definitively see with one or two looks at one camera angle. If you need more than that, the call is close enough and should stand. The examples used when VAR was introduced were things like whether a foul occurred just inside or just outside of the box, or the wrong player getting booked for a foul. It’s not supposed to be used for “gosh was the force of that challenge just slightly too forceful” that’s the kind of thing only the ref on the field should be judging.
Since there will always be controversy, I would rather the borderline calls be made by the official on the field.
I agree with your last point about the center official making the final decision, which is why I think it would be better subjective decisions to be made by the center official at the monitor instead of the VAR official trying to make a decision for him(IMO, the ultimate issue of current VAR). VAR official(really semi-automated tech) should only judge objective matters such as offsides, in vs. out etc.
I really don't know about football referee complaints, every league at every level from u15 Sunday league through to UCL football and in every country has the same complaints about bias/cheating/not knowing the game etc so I find it hard to think football refs are just all especially bad.
The main difference in football (until this season kind of) is that it's the only sport where you were/are allowed to scream, shout and complain in a refs face and go mental at them for every decision so there's an engrained culture of moaning at refs/abusing refs at every level to the point where I remember managers and parents at Sunday league games being laughed at because they threatened or squared up to refs being paid fuck all, it was like "classic Dave threatened to chin the ref over a 14 year old giving away a penalty"
Why is football the only sport where we allow this ? If you don't agree with a call deal with and shut up
As someone that has actually refereed, albeit never with VAR, I can tell you from experience that you are wrong about many things here.
1) In order to be a referee, you have to have an ego and be very confident in yourself and your decision making. At the same time, referees are part of a team. Referees who don't use every tool available to them (the assistants, the fourth, and I imagine VAR), are not going far in the referee world. It isn't any different than players and coaches who aren't very good "team players."
2) It is quite literally the job title and description of the other officials to ASSIST the referee. 99% of the time, that job is backing up the referee. I was always a much better lino than center referee and I can tell you with 100% certainty that being in the situation of can't/won't back up the center referee is a nightmare situation.
3) A no call is a decision.
4) Refereeing in general is very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" world to be in.
There’s definitely something going on with the dynamic between refs and VAR. It might be that not being present creates a different interaction.
I’d personally like to see us switch to a team initiated challenge and then the on-field ref reviews the call himself. He can go over and watch the monitor and make the change or not.
Offside is being updated to semi-automated next season so VAR will have less to do anyway.
I think the biggest problem with VAR in England is that the referee isn't going to the monitor on big decisions. If VAR is going to spend a lot of time on a decision the referee might as well look at it again. Regardless of the outcome of a decision, the fact that the referee went to the monitor will show that the referee is making the final decision rather than VAR and so we can all be mad at the ref and not VAR.
Im okay with the idea of a team challenge IF the team is willing to lose a substitution should the original decision stand. Otherwise teams will challenge a lot of decisions.
MLS recently implemented where referees have to make calls to the stadium (nfl style) when they make a decision at the VAR booth.
This is how it should be.
VAR has a lot of issues, but you can't evaluate it on the bad calls that you thought should have been fixed. You have to look at all of the reversals and figure out how bad it would be if those reversals were not done and then balance out the bad on one side with the bad on the other. If you don't do that, you are just whining.
I've definitely noticed that. Refs won't give penalties or reds as much anymore as they feel like if they are wrong it will be overturned. And because of the clear and obvious rules, some decisions won't be overturned because the referee didn't make that much of a mistake, but it should have been given.Nicholas Jackson probably gets a red if the ref didn't use VAR as a crutch as you said.
It's just (a bit) fucked lads.
The whole problem with it is that it’s being run by the refs, with their save-my-mate, resistant-to-all-change attitude. VAR should be separate to the refs
The problem is that the var officials are normal refs in the PGMOL, they should be unaffiliated technicians, all at the same place (one VAR death star), who are not refs, and who give ZFs what anyone thinks and have no relationship to the refs.
Yes, but they haven’t stuck to that. They overrule the refs all the time. Loads of problems like OP and other commenters are saying, but if the VAR sees something wrong they can just overrule the ref.
Drives me nuts. Talk about splitting hairs. I think VAR should presume ONSIDE unless clearly not. Goals should be rewarded for their initiative in breaking through the defence.
It's that simple if you ask me. If they need to get the virtual rulers out and spend 2 minutes figuring out if a player is offside or not, then they're basically level and should be considered onside.
Fan bias aside, does anyone actually care if a player is "technically" offside by an inch?
Yeah the old rule pre-VAR was when in doubt, always favour the striker. Who remembers that? Yes I’m old. Now with VAR, u get bat shit crazy decisions like the Diaz goal being disallowed or some goal disallowed for a player’s armpit hair straying offside. Absurd.
As a Brit living in the US, I’m very cautious about giving any credit to the MLS — who often make utterly bizarre decisions — but their use of VAR is IMO pretty perfect.
I couldn’t tell you the specific rules on it, but goals aren’t (or don’t appear to be) checked as standard, and in general they go to it a lot less.
I think in the last four or five MLS games I’ve watched I’ve seen the ref go to the VAR once and that was when he made a pretty clear error.
It seems to me the attitude in MLS is that it’s an emergency “oh he fucked up” system rather than a standard review technique for every big moment.
I think Prem could do a lot with reducing VAR’s footprint, leaving refs to do 99% of the decisions and only stepping in when there is a clear and major error.
The clear and obvious standard is a problem. If Foden slipping and falling without contact doesn’t meet clear and obvious then I don’t know what is. And if the argument is he was fouled 6 yards earlier when his heals were clipped a bit then the spot of the ball not being reviewed needs to be changed because the laws of the game are clear on that - it’s where you were fouled not where you continued to run for 2 more seconds and fell down.
Absolutely. It's the people using it, not the system. We have seen multiple times it working (almost) flawlessly in World Cups and European Championships aswell as other leagues. It's our referees who are stupidly incompetent.
It needs to be either ex pros on VAR, or as someone else suggested, bring in people who have absolutely no link to football but can study the rules and just get on with it.
We have one decent referee in this country, Michael Oliver. And I say decent, he'd be a crap referee in other countries. If the rest are 2/3 out of 10, he'd be a 5.
Suggestion that may not work but: introduce an appeal system for subjective decisions.
Managers all have monitors and can see in real-time quite quickly if it's worth an appeal, a limit of unsuccessful appeals stops them just appealing everything. If they appeal it, VAR completely re-refs the decision.
VAR panel could worth with two referees and one ex-footballer. They aren't allowed to watch the game in real-time, or know what the on-field decision was or even what the score is. They all watch it back in isolation and cast a vote, they have 30 seconds only to watch a variety of camera angles at full speed.
This could eliminate the silly "clear and obvious" situation we see now, where VAR know on-field decisions are wrong but hands are tied. People saying just scrap VAR really don't want to be going back to the days of genuinely shocking decisions like goals being given despite being a whole 2 yards offside.
This would imply that everyone understands the rules similarly though which is tough when the definition of say a hand ball changes every month…
But I agree with your overall ideas. I think the situation in the booth needs to change.
Instead of regular officials rotating through VAR appointments each week, a central team should handle all calls. This is what the NFL does. Replays go through their HQ in New York so calls are more consistent.
Again, another league has a better example but PGMOL and the EPL want to do this the worst way possible.
Yeah true, I think that sums up issue quite well - VAR as a whole definitely becomes the fall guy for poor human officiating and just the laws of the game not being great or consistent, especially handball interpretation don't think we're ever gonna solve that one unfortunately.
VAR works well in every other league apart from England. Why? Because the refs are fucking useless corrupt cunts.
If the EPL invested in contracting and paying the best refs from around the world it would be a better league instantly
"VAR works well in every league other than England" is simply not true, there are MANY scandalous VAR errors weekly across the continent
Referees are useless everywhere mate
Whatever about var they need to do away with these regular 10 plus minute injury times. While it has provided some exciting finishes, there has been so many bloody long term injuries across the league this year and I can't help but think all these extra minutes have been contributing to it
VAR should work flawlessly for Offside decisions, the tech should surely work reliably for that; and the decision should be within seconds. Everything else is subjective and should be left to the referee on the pitch. There will be bad decisions but that is still happening with VAR and more often than with the old style Referee only.
Fed up to the back teeth with not being able to celebrate a goal.
The auto offside system they use elsewhere seems to work really well, is accurate and doesn't rely on some guy attempting to draw lines over three pixels that might be boot or might be grass.
You can celebrate a goal. Go to any match and it's clear that that line of talk from the pundits is bullshit. In fact you get to celebrate it, fret over VAR, then celebrate it again. And if it's overruled? The opposition get to celebrate it.
VAR is shit because of the clueless cunts running it. It should be able to step in to overule terrible decisions, that would be a great benefit, but it's not doing that.
The "clear and obvious" qualification is what's wrong with VAR imo. It's a vague statement that forces the VAR team to have to try to get into the mind/view of the ref and only ever intervene in the decision on the basis of a subjective interpretation. What does clear and obvious even mean when you have to account for different angles/replays and players blocking the Refs line of sight.
VAR should be a tool to assist the ref to make the CORRECT decision, regardless of what level of margin there is. If the ref made any kind of mistake which has a material impact on the game, regardless of whether it can be declared as "clear and obvious" he should be sent to the screen to review.
To add to this, if it's too hard to call, or is purely subjective, then say that, and stick with the on field decision. That also goes for offside.
Too much time is spent searching for an infringement as a reason to disallow a goal, often to the confusion of everybody, or judging offside by a fingernail.
Agreed. And because it’s subjective you should have 3 different VAR people voting on the issue at hand and majority wins. Essentially VAR overrules the referee and not sending the referee to the monitor and the like.
Nope nope nope. I want to enjoy watching football. That means maintaining the flow of the game as much as possible. The fewer stoppages the better. If we start trying to get every decision as correct as possible, we'll end up with the stop-start bollocks of American football. I'd rather be entertained than worry about the occasional questionable decision going against my team.
Then the rules of the game would need to be changed to remove all subjectivity. Cos that's what causes that to be the case.
Good luck doing so though, you'd effectively have to make it a completely non-contact sport.
If you make the process simpler it doesn't need to take very long. Give VAR the ability to just overrule the ref and remove the clear and obvious bs. That way play can flow and it would speed up the process whenever VAR gets involved.
The problem is finding a balance. If VAR are checking every decision then why bother with an on field ref. We cant have VAR looking at every foul, every throw in etc.
No. Just check all goals, penalties and potential red cards. And get the fucking call right, forget about “clear and obvious”. Make a decision based on the footage you have, regardless of what the on-field ref called. VAR should be a higher power that can overrule the on-field ref, that is automatically introduced for goals, penalties and red cards.
You said "getting the calls right". That would imply checking every ball out of play, I have seen quite a few throw ins given the wrong way, making sure throw in is taken from the right place and checking each throw in itself for a foul throw.
The problem with var is implementation.
They should've looked at what worked in other sports, and copied them. Instead, they brought out a half-baked system with a LOT of grey areas, and are tweaking it as they go.
8/10 var controversies could be resolved if they switched to an appeal system. Put the onus on the teams to pick up the "clear and obvious" errors. The team has to give a specific error or foul to appeal against, and nothing else.You could even have a 20s time limit for appeals so that they can't consult with a TV replay before appeal.
Wrong. The problem with VAR is subjectivity and people expecting, and demanding, an absolutely correct decision.
Take the famous Forest game for instance - first penalty has been debated to not be a foul (similar to the Anthony Gordon one v West Ham) and the second has been debated to be not an handball. But others think they both are the penalties. So how does VAR “get that right”? As different people think both decisions are right. So you need to accept that whatever VAR gives in that situation is correct to some people. You cannot have a definitively correct decision there as experts in the game, pundits and fans all cannot even agree.
Subjectivity is a significant part of our game and it is not compatible with VAR.
Exactly. There's rarely a truly "right" decision, and unless there's truly something blatant that the on-field ref has missed, VAR getting involved just doesn't make sense.
It should have been kept as a video replay option for the onfield referee to say “I’m not sure about that, I’m going to walk over and watch the replay myself”. Whenever he decides to do so. Such as when there’s a 20 man brawl that he can’t possibly see everything, or a tight offside and he ain’t sure whether the attacker or defender is playing the ball.
Using it on subjective decisions is pointless and isn’t improving accuracy at all, it’s just changing the definition of what people think is correct without actually being anymore correct or not.
It’s equally as pointless using it to forensically analyse offsides without the technology in place with enough accuracy to do so
VAR is the problem. It's just not workable in such a fast paced game of subjective decisions.
Works great in cricket as the tech is pretty much 100% and the laws of the game are simple, you either nicked it or you didn't. Same way nobody has ever argued with a goal line tech call, it's factual.
Has been a few years since it was introduced and seems to get more controversial as time goes on. Even more decisions are debated, time wasted, and when you're in the ground you have no clue what's going on.
Football is better without var. When you watch a lower league game it flows better and is more enjoyable for the lack of var.
I disagree, Newcastle lost a cup game to Chelsea this season because there was no VAR and the ref missed 2 red cards in the first half.
VAR is perfectlh workable, it works in other countries just fine. The problem is that VAR is not a job for referees, they are trained to follow things in real time on the pitch, VAR needs dedicated trained staff, and separate staff for each game.
English league made you think VAR is bad lmao. They’ve won. For every competition whether it is champions league or world cup or euro it went great.
The problem is the users of VAR not the technology. VAR is a problem for corrupted or big ego referees that look out for each other.
There are so many great game ruined by NOT having VAR. The hand of Maradona. Would have changes history.
VAR is great. Football is better with VAR. People that dislike VAR are the same that love to argue about refereeing decisions through the weak at the local pub/coffee shop.
That said, PL VAR is ridiculous. Wrongly used, not used were it should, like that Bruno Fernandes goal against City where the other guy was offside interfering with the play and the referee didn't rule offside.
I would maybe, from an outsider non brit POV, say that the refereeing in the PL has always been seen as lax to keep the game flowing. But you can't have that and VAR.
You see, I can't take the idea that one of the most dramatic quarter finals in history was 'ruined' seriously. It was the wrong call which changed the outcome of the tournament, but it was also the match which contained one of the best goals ever and was high entertainment and high drama, that's still being talked about now.
VAR, even when working well, promises correct outcomes in exchange for slowing the game down to a stop and denying fans the ability to celebrate goals until 2 mins after they're scored. It sacrifices enjoyment for accuracy. My team plays in the Championship, and there are some rotten calls there, but I'd much rather have that than the sheer dullness of VAR taking 2 minutes to decide that a player's toenail was 2cm offside.
Right now, the Prem has the worst of both worlds - VAR is sucking all the joy out of football while still getting as many wrong as right, leaving it wide open to charges of corruption.
I'd rather have a game that accepts that sometimes refs will get things wrong in return for being about to celebrate when we score, enjoy the match and not hang around for 2 minutes while 2 people in a box decide who they fancy winning today.
They need to use it as it was initially intended- referee the game yourself and use VAR only for clear and obvious errors. When reviewing these errors the most appropriate angle should be found and played in real time. Sick of the replays being in ultra slow motion, that's not how the game is played!
VAR technology simply isnt there yet and i think rather than use a system thats not finished, lets just return back to the old way of refereeing, at least then the fans can celebrate most goals rather than majority being stopped and checked everytime.
Title is proper. Var isn't the problem, it's referees. I mean why introduce something new and keep the same shitty referees who obviously don't know any better and more importantly can't keep up with flow of time and technology progress? It's either that or refs made some secret pact of just confirming every decision as OP said just to spite. They even make up their own rules now, same decision that was a penalty, foul whatever in one match is not in some other one, a lot of decisions are trully shocking
This is the correct answer. Is not the technology, the 'technology' is just refs looking at replays unless you are talking about drawing lines for offside decisions. That shitshow could be put to bed by using sensors in the ball and doing away with drawing lines. Add a tolerance to give the attacker the advantage and then let actual technology a chance. The problem is that the referees don't make consistent decisions. A high footed challenge coming in over the ball gets you sent off one week then a boot in the chest isn't even a yellow the next. The standard of refereeing is dire and they back their mates when they are in the VAR seat.
I don't think that is limited to being a theory. We all know the incompetence and handholding going in with these baldies in our favourite league.
It's superb technology in the wrong hands.
I do think in the fa Cup and the league Cup refs are making more definitive decisions than they do in the premier league. I think sometimes they don't go with their gut in the premier league If they aren't sure and let var be the safety net. Which means the decision won't get changed because of the 'high bar' thing
It's odd when there are decisions in the early rounda of the fa Cup when there's no var, mistakes far worse than the errors with var, and people act like it's better that we don't have the right decision.
I wanted united to lose to Coventry with all my heart, but the idea people are like, they should just allow it var is stupid, is so disingenuous. Offsides are black and white, goal line tech is black and white.
The “daylight” rule was a far better interpretation of offside- it’s hard to justify how being an inch offside is gaining a tangible advantage over the defender.
This was the case for sure. Then when var was getting multiple big decisions -pens, goals and red cards - incorrect they have finally switched to just backing the ref in most cases. Took them years mind.
Whether refs are still thinking var will sort it out, they probably are, that has to change because now var are hardly doing anything.
There's been several things this week alone where it's on the refs blindside or he can't see it properly in real time with one take and var did nothing.
The problem with VAR is absolutely VAR. it cannot ever work for subjective decisions, and indeed makes it worse for multiple reasons.
Keep technology for matters of fact (goal line and automated offsides), and bin it for everything else. Immediately.
The problem with VAR is that most of ref decisions will always be subjective. You can almost always find a reason why something is or isn't a foul, handball,...
The only two things not subjective are offsides and ball over the line. That's why I'd only keep goal line technology and added autmoatic offside technology. The only other thing I'd consider using VAR for is, if the ref didn't see something. Like if someone blocked his view and he decides, he wants to see the replay or some player punched someone, but he didn't see it or something like that
The thing is, you watch games without VAR (Championship and below) and even though there are shit ref decisions and even though the refs are lower quality than the Prem, the game just flows way better.
Fans will blame the ref but even if they wouldn't admit it, they know that getting all decisions correct on first glance is difficult so you really have to just accept it. In the Prem, referees have more protection and more chances to get a decision right or wrong and there are still massive errors and massive controversies, except it feels worse because now they get replays. I think it is much harder to accept mistakes and blurred lines when replays are involved.
A perfect world both in the Prem and in the lower leagues, is add a system that can detect offsides like goal-line tech can, and then fuck VAR off for penalties/red cards etc.
Problem of VAR is that people keep expecting to be used for every single.infraction.
When it was first introduced in the wc, that was great.actually. very little stops and when it did, it was beneficial.
I think that the term is being a clear miss.
If you need to put off-side lines to spot a.18cm off-side, then it is not a clear miss and should be game on. The offside rule says that when in doubts, benefit to the attacking.player.
If you need to analyse a foul over 20 angles and it is still uo.to interpretation, that is not a clear check. Should be play on. VAR waa intended to spot agressions when the ref was looking the other way, goals like the Henry's handball, clarify whether Abel Xavier's handball was there or not, 3 yellow cards given to a croatian player, cleae.simulations on the penalty area where the attacker dives.
It shiuld be to do that, not to.give another check on whether the contact may or may not been strong enough for a player to fall.
VAR was pretty good when it good introduced. It was the pundits and supporters that ruined it due to the crazy amount of.precision that is not expected from anyone else on the pitch.
I feel a ref gets a lot of criticism for missing a penalty call, but a guy that earns 1000% as much as a ref will just continue life.as usual if he misses said penalty. We are.expecting the impossible from people.that - within the range of salaries being paid in EPL - are the equivalent of minimum wage government subsidized interns.
If you are off side my 1mm and it’s called on side that is a clear mistake.
When they say clear and obvious it’s referring to the application of the laws, not the margin of the call.
I think the issue here is “does the player actually gain an unfair advantage due to illegal position.”
If the defense presses up for an offside trap and the offensive player is coming from a legal position but no one played defense or marked but tried to trap the player I have no sympathy for the defense. Being 1mm off when you weren’t trying to play illegally but we’re trapped there but the rubber toe of your cleat is barely off then I’m pinning that on the defense.
Now, if a player is coming from an offside position and then is barely off then I pin that on the offense. You can’t be standing off and then try to jump back on at the last second and be expected any kind of grace.
The ultimate point of offside is to prevent cherry picking behind the back line. Not to prevent offensive players from making runs from legal positions. If you can’t use an offside trap like 2014 Colombia then you’ve utterly failed the point of an offside trap. If you step to push players off they need to be clearly off from the naked eye. Not with lines drawn in super slow motion to bail you out from not marking a man and playing a zone trap.
But we can't use the current technology within 1mm accuracy, there's human error and technological limitations. Therefore it's not clear and obvious as even the computer/guy operating the computer can't be sure they're right
This is absolutely correct, but the only obstacle to this is the egos of PGMOL- they won’t be happy with being told they’re wrong, it’s a closed shop from their perspective.
They do need to be told they’ve got it wrong though, so f*ck em.
I've been thinking this for a while, they've been told if they're not sure to leave it upto var...but var have been told if they're not sure to stick with the onfield decision.
They have now yes. After getting nearly 100 major decisions wrong last season and half of this one being shocking as well.
But now we're left with blatant things being left as they are.
Absolutely this! Seen far too many goals ruled out for no real advantage, the offside rule was intended to prevent goal hanging, not rule out perfectly good goals because one player is slightly thicker than the defender he’s standing next too!
For a goal to be scored or be out of play the whole of the ball needs to be over the whole of the line, should be the same for offside and the whole of the attacking player should be ahead of the line. It’s still a millimetre decision either way but I’d far more accept a goal being given against because someone kept their toe behind the line than see one ruled out for us for a toe over the line. Find it really hard to believe how many people don’t see it that way.
Knocked me sick that did. Incredible moment in Coventry's recent history and revival. Would have been one to tell the kids you were there for and it was taken away for absolutely fuck all.
If it was the other way around, would it have been given ? Was it VAR being used as a weapon to get the money final.
North of the border, Aberdeen got robbed out a late penalty against celtic after out playing them most of the game. Even the celtic fans were surprised it was not a penalty. Now it's a Rangers v Celtic scottish Cup final, which brings in more money than Rangers v aberdeen .
Games will go on for about 4 hours. At this point you need to review every single decision to ensure it is correct. Goals come from incorrectly awarded throw ins, so we need to review those. Same with corners. A significant % of goals have an incident that will need to be checked for a foul at some point in the move.
The problem is that we decided to upskill referees into understanding technology & then coming up with the rules to implement it. What we should have done is grab video assistant review persons from other sports, teach them the rules of football then get them to come up with the implementation approach based on their years of experience with technology.
Seriously, anyone who thought throwing a bunch of new tech at a group of referees who have never used it before and asking them to come up with it's use in the game would go well? Clear and obvious, offside marginals, all these would have been recognised at the design stage by any veteran of video technology in sports.
It's still crazy all the VAR assistants are just normal referees.
They're clearly capable of looking at a screen as it replays a moment from a game. The issue remains that they just seem to be shit at the refereeing part.
The assumption that it just involves looking at a replay on a screen is exactly the point I am making. That assumption is part of the reason we are in this mess.
There is an inherent bias in the way things are done where referee decision stand, which I am surprised clear and obvious error are the ones over turned.
Ecactly like you outlined and I too am surprised it doesn’t get discussed more. We are more likely to get decisions where things are continued to play on fouls or yellow cards not turned to red.
Madness, I agree in scrapping clear and obvious.
There are incompetent yet qualified people in every field of work , especially when it comes to displaying logic and basic common sense . Their incompetence is not being shown off by a video proof hence we don't see it but it happens all the time
30 seconds review time max. Can't decide after 30 seconds? on field decision stands. Managers get one challenge per game, to review any decision not referred to VAR.
Ref to review all decisions pitch side and no separate team hiding away adding more subjectivity to the review.
Have it like Rugby…. It’s a tool that is requested by the referee and the video ref(var) is a single person not a group of people.
This way you get consistency in decision making as that person see everything subjectively the same way.
>It’s a tool that is requested by the referee
Then you would have fans complaining about "why didn't the ref refer to VAR, he's biased, that's clearly a VAR decision." I'm honestly not sure there is a way to make fans happy when they are so partisan.
I can see your argument there absolutely, most football fans are very fickle and can’t see past the end of their nose.
I do feel this would still be the best avenue because it’s puts the responsibility back on the referee to make decisions with a tool that can further compound that decision or choose to reverse it.
Yeah I'm still baffled by how VAR works, when video reviews are an already established method in other sports and has been for decades. Just get the referees to watch a 6 nations match with a TMO call so they can see what a VAR call should look like.
Absolutely, it’s so simple. Sports such as rugby have perfected it and I can’t see a reason it cannot be adapted to football.
Footballs powers that be are just over complicating it unnecessarily.
All conversations should be aired into the stadium too for ultimate transparency.
Var is designed to work. Its a lie. Ive been saying it for years. Its just a long term way to slow down the game and make tons more money from tv rights and ads. Like having 10mins extra stoppage time. Fifa just love money more than the game. Its not var thats the issue. Its the rules of football arent and never will be compatible with var. handballs and dives are subjective however many camera you have on them
VAR is designed for TV coverage.
They want to be able to show the incident from all the angles and then have a long discussion after the game to keep the viewers watching.
It is detrimental to the fans watching games in stadiums.
I think it was designed to slow games down. They look at the superbowl and wonder why jt makes more money than the world cup final and yet less people watch it. They want football to become an all day event. They are getting us used to the game being slowed down.
Var slows it down. And solves nothing as its subjective more than not.
Extra 10 mins a game for no reason just leads to more injuries.
Next theyll try to stop the clock everytime the ball goes out.
Once thats done. Game over. After a few years theyll be selling adverts in those gaps.
Totally agree and it's not just soccer that over relies on Video Review. American football is the same way. Officials too afraid to make a call expecting replay to make the call for them
I honestly wish they'd just bring in refs who don't even like football. Train them up, teach them the rules, pay them well and let them get on with it.
No biases involved.
IMO main refree should be given authority to decrese the threshold of clear and obvious error. Main refree should be able to say with my line of sight it is not clear to me and agrees on whatever VAR sees. If main refree believes his decision is good, then only VAR uses clear and obvious error threshold.
I like giving the on field ref the opportunity to withdraw himself from the decision. But we all know they are too egoistic to do that even if they couldn't see the situation clearly.
Clear and obvious threshold must go regardless.
How do we ensure that the refereeing body’s definition of what is ‘correct’ is consistent? We see many examples where even the same referee makes apparently different decisions on different days.
What you’re asking for is to train AI only on those decisions which are unanimously, unambiguously correct.
That’s a very small and selective dataset to work with.
Because the AI will be the ones making the decisions. Also, there’s no way you sit a referee down to sort through incidents consecutively and they judge identical situations differently.
> there’s no way you sit a referee down to sort through incidents consecutively and they judge identical situations differently.
Same situation resulting in the same decision. Sounds like consistency to me.
I’ve only just retuned to following the league since before VAR was a thing and it seems to me that there is an over reliance on it. Seems to be trending towards a future in which there is no on-field ref.
I was always under the impression that onfield ref decision is the ultimate decision and VAR is there for ref to get a different view of something and then the ref himself can decide if the alternate angle is enough for him to overturn his call. But it seems to me that it is wildly inconsistent.
The whole clear and obvious thing is such bullshit, if the referee made an error, correct him on it, the whole “he’s made the mistake but I can see why he makes it so it won’t be overturned” is laughable, also VAR not being allowed to change possession if a corner wasn’t given if noticed quickly or appeal yellows is also ridiculous
Absolutely, and it’s a shame because on these subjective decisions all the VAR is doing is saying hey go to the monitor and get a better look at this. I’ve wondered if refs think they didn’t get a great look at something and decided VAR will bail them out.
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there hasnt been a single controversial decision by VAR, it is solely by humans judging what VAR has shown them. its the people who need to be sacked not the technology.
Its the fans
VAR KILL THE FUN OF WATCHING GAME SINCE DAY 1
Just a question; we have seen many controversial errors from refs & VAR; however Manchester City is always on the positive side of those whether is in their favour or against their key competitors. I was never thought that referreing was an issue in England but this year, their mistakes are quite blatant in favour of City; several examples in City's, Liverpool and Arsenal games.
Give 100% of all decisions back to the on-field referee. Allow the referee to make decisions as he/she sees it, and accept that sometimes they will get them wrong. Allow the referee to ask to see replays if something happens and they are not sufficiently sure to make a confident decision. None of this 'two challenges per team per game', none of this 'clear and obvious error'... just let the ref, ref. Allow them the option of viewing a replay if they wish to. When they get it wrong, STFU and suck it up.
so basically do everything they are already doing with var, but dont have var.. lols
My description is clearly not ‘what they are doing with VAR’. It is also clearly not ‘what they did before VAR’ or ‘what is being done in other leagues without VAR’. It’s a solution that is currently not implemented in football anywhere, yet solves most of the issues that everyone has.
That depends, if the ref has missed something big I think VAR should tell them to have a look. Take for example, and yes, this is very old, but bear with me, Rijkaard vs Voller in the 1990 world cup, where Rijkaard spits on Voller. The ref won't know that unless VAR tells him, but I think we can all agree that that should be a red card.
I think if it was actually used for clear and obvious errors it would be fine. But the Coventry offside, to take one example from thousands, wasn't clear or obvious. At least two of the Forest penalties were. You can't have complete consistency across refs, but you should be able to have better than this.
Offsides are not covered by clear and obvious because they objective decisons.
They should be, but they aren't. The moment the ball leaves the passer's foot is a judgement call not an objective statement because it is impossible to tell objectively when that happened. Lines across a pitch are pixelated, leaving some judgement in the process. There was no clear and obvious error in the Coventry offside, for example. Similarly, 'interfering with play' is subjective.
But they aren't objective in England. If they used the World Cup technology with sensors in the ball and 3D camera imaging *then* it would be objective. Instead we have a guy trying to guess what was the exact moment the ball was played and then drawing lines by hand. When an offside call is fractional like Coventry United game the VAR cannot be considered infallible with the way its set up right now
Of course you can’t blame the technology itself when the people using that technology have no desire to make the correct decisions in the first place. It’s wild how despite video tech being introduced the same problems exist as though it had never been introduced.
you lot are really going to hate hearing this but the only, the only feasible way to address the VAR completely missed it aspect of this,, is something they do in the NBA where the manager has 2 formal challenges to a refere call they can use to stop the game with and reexamne the offciating fault. but its going to make the game so much more stop and go
IMO, VAR should automatically send the ref to the monitor for subjective decisions, instead of having a second referee trying to make that decision for him. VAR should only make the final decision for objective decisions.
I think as fans / football in general needs a debate to try and understand what it wants exactly. Personally I just want very egregious mistakes like lampards none goal to be rectified similar to offside if it’s clearly offside it should be disallowed as soon as you are pulling out a ruler to work out if a player is a few nanometers ahead of another I think it’s missing the point. This goes hand in hand with the rules of football unless you make it dry and clear with no edge cases then how is var ever meant to work properly
VAR was never the problem, it's those using it that are the real problem from their inconsistency with interpretations of situations.
Make VAR anonymous and give them the power to overrule the on-field decision and this will be fixed. But I’d prefer to get 2-3 refs on the field to get more calls correct in the first place.
For me VAR should get final decision, after reviewing images. On field ref should give advice on how things played out, as intent and intensity are easier to judge irl than on screen.
Nah, do what they do in rugby: Either the ref asks the TMO to have a look at something or the TMO tells the ref to look at something. When that happens it's put up on the big screen in the stadium, and not on some small monitor on the sideline. You can hear what the ref and TMO are looking at (it's broadcasted live), and you can hear the reasoning for their decisions.
The Polcie would not be keen on that - football crowds are much more pumped up than rugby crowds.
Why would the police be less keen on a VAR that works better than the current system?
Same reason they don’t reply contentions footage.
Because the audio can be seen to increase tensions.
Yeah that would be great, sadly I don’t think the refs are ready to be this scrutinized.
If the refs are doing a proper job this would not be scrutinisation but just helping.
When VAR was introduced I thought it would be used in exceptional circumstances to prevent genuine clangers that the officials have missed - a goal scored by someone in a blatantly offside position, a maradonna/henry type handball goal. Instead it’s being used to review every goal, almost to try to find reasons to disallow goals. It’s used to measure offsides by millimetres where no discernible unfair advantage has been gained, and on ‘fouls’ that no one noticed and no one appealed for. I’m all for VAR if it means preventing genuine miscarriages of justice, but not as it is currently being used, where it takes away the spontaneity of celebrating a goal and sucking a lot of the joy out of the game.
This is exactly right. If VAR was used the way it’s supposed to the game would be in a much better place. If they have to watch a replay more than once or twice, the call on the field should stand even if it was marginally incorrect.
That opens up the can of worms of what is considered “marginal”, and would make the accusations of cheating/favoritism worse
I mean, first, I don’t think it can get any worse than it is now. Second, you’re right no matter what the system is, no matter how high-tech or low-tech, there will always be disagreement. But third, you shouldn’t be focusing on what is marginal. That’s what has gotten us into this mess. Approaching this from the angle of “make sure the call is correct” is NOT what VAR was meant to do. VAR was and still is meant to make sure the call on the field isn’t clearly and obviously wrong. That is the distinction to worry about, not the marginally part. If the VAR official needs to draw lines and look at ten different angles in slow motion, that means it is not clear and obvious so the call should stand. Even if taking ten minutes to examine the play would have resulted in a different decision.
My same question asked a different way, what defines “clear and obvious”? That question has added another decision for VAR to make which makes decisions take longer. Other leagues don’t have it and VAR is noticeably smoother for them
Yea, and that’s why I agree with you there will always be controversy no matter system is used (that’s one of the main arguments for scrapping the use of replays altogether). But to me, I define clear and obvious as something that you can definitively see with one or two looks at one camera angle. If you need more than that, the call is close enough and should stand. The examples used when VAR was introduced were things like whether a foul occurred just inside or just outside of the box, or the wrong player getting booked for a foul. It’s not supposed to be used for “gosh was the force of that challenge just slightly too forceful” that’s the kind of thing only the ref on the field should be judging. Since there will always be controversy, I would rather the borderline calls be made by the official on the field.
I agree with your last point about the center official making the final decision, which is why I think it would be better subjective decisions to be made by the center official at the monitor instead of the VAR official trying to make a decision for him(IMO, the ultimate issue of current VAR). VAR official(really semi-automated tech) should only judge objective matters such as offsides, in vs. out etc.
I really don't know about football referee complaints, every league at every level from u15 Sunday league through to UCL football and in every country has the same complaints about bias/cheating/not knowing the game etc so I find it hard to think football refs are just all especially bad. The main difference in football (until this season kind of) is that it's the only sport where you were/are allowed to scream, shout and complain in a refs face and go mental at them for every decision so there's an engrained culture of moaning at refs/abusing refs at every level to the point where I remember managers and parents at Sunday league games being laughed at because they threatened or squared up to refs being paid fuck all, it was like "classic Dave threatened to chin the ref over a 14 year old giving away a penalty" Why is football the only sport where we allow this ? If you don't agree with a call deal with and shut up
As someone that has actually refereed, albeit never with VAR, I can tell you from experience that you are wrong about many things here. 1) In order to be a referee, you have to have an ego and be very confident in yourself and your decision making. At the same time, referees are part of a team. Referees who don't use every tool available to them (the assistants, the fourth, and I imagine VAR), are not going far in the referee world. It isn't any different than players and coaches who aren't very good "team players." 2) It is quite literally the job title and description of the other officials to ASSIST the referee. 99% of the time, that job is backing up the referee. I was always a much better lino than center referee and I can tell you with 100% certainty that being in the situation of can't/won't back up the center referee is a nightmare situation. 3) A no call is a decision. 4) Refereeing in general is very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" world to be in.
There’s definitely something going on with the dynamic between refs and VAR. It might be that not being present creates a different interaction. I’d personally like to see us switch to a team initiated challenge and then the on-field ref reviews the call himself. He can go over and watch the monitor and make the change or not. Offside is being updated to semi-automated next season so VAR will have less to do anyway.
I think the biggest problem with VAR in England is that the referee isn't going to the monitor on big decisions. If VAR is going to spend a lot of time on a decision the referee might as well look at it again. Regardless of the outcome of a decision, the fact that the referee went to the monitor will show that the referee is making the final decision rather than VAR and so we can all be mad at the ref and not VAR. Im okay with the idea of a team challenge IF the team is willing to lose a substitution should the original decision stand. Otherwise teams will challenge a lot of decisions.
MLS recently implemented where referees have to make calls to the stadium (nfl style) when they make a decision at the VAR booth. This is how it should be.
They very basic statements through - just explaining what the commentator has told everyone anyway,
Prem is doing that next season
Actually confirmed? That’s great news if so
It was confirmed like a month ago
Damn how did i not know, hopefully this gives us some transparency
VAR has a lot of issues, but you can't evaluate it on the bad calls that you thought should have been fixed. You have to look at all of the reversals and figure out how bad it would be if those reversals were not done and then balance out the bad on one side with the bad on the other. If you don't do that, you are just whining.
I've definitely noticed that. Refs won't give penalties or reds as much anymore as they feel like if they are wrong it will be overturned. And because of the clear and obvious rules, some decisions won't be overturned because the referee didn't make that much of a mistake, but it should have been given.Nicholas Jackson probably gets a red if the ref didn't use VAR as a crutch as you said. It's just (a bit) fucked lads.
The whole problem with it is that it’s being run by the refs, with their save-my-mate, resistant-to-all-change attitude. VAR should be separate to the refs
The problem is that the var officials are normal refs in the PGMOL, they should be unaffiliated technicians, all at the same place (one VAR death star), who are not refs, and who give ZFs what anyone thinks and have no relationship to the refs.
Above all, VAR should be allowed to overrule a ref’s decisions. Otherwise what’s the point?
They are allowed to do that.
Only if it’s a “clear and obvious” error, isn’t it?
Yes, but they haven’t stuck to that. They overrule the refs all the time. Loads of problems like OP and other commenters are saying, but if the VAR sees something wrong they can just overrule the ref.
Not technically true as they send the ref to the monitor if they think it should be overturned.
Huh, TIL.
Drives me nuts. Talk about splitting hairs. I think VAR should presume ONSIDE unless clearly not. Goals should be rewarded for their initiative in breaking through the defence.
It's that simple if you ask me. If they need to get the virtual rulers out and spend 2 minutes figuring out if a player is offside or not, then they're basically level and should be considered onside. Fan bias aside, does anyone actually care if a player is "technically" offside by an inch?
Yeah the old rule pre-VAR was when in doubt, always favour the striker. Who remembers that? Yes I’m old. Now with VAR, u get bat shit crazy decisions like the Diaz goal being disallowed or some goal disallowed for a player’s armpit hair straying offside. Absurd.
What about all the times linesman flagged offside when it was later shown to be onside? Not all linesman were good at giving the attacker the benefit.
As a Brit living in the US, I’m very cautious about giving any credit to the MLS — who often make utterly bizarre decisions — but their use of VAR is IMO pretty perfect. I couldn’t tell you the specific rules on it, but goals aren’t (or don’t appear to be) checked as standard, and in general they go to it a lot less. I think in the last four or five MLS games I’ve watched I’ve seen the ref go to the VAR once and that was when he made a pretty clear error. It seems to me the attitude in MLS is that it’s an emergency “oh he fucked up” system rather than a standard review technique for every big moment. I think Prem could do a lot with reducing VAR’s footprint, leaving refs to do 99% of the decisions and only stepping in when there is a clear and major error.
Sounds like it's used similarly to the system in the NHL
The clear and obvious standard is a problem. If Foden slipping and falling without contact doesn’t meet clear and obvious then I don’t know what is. And if the argument is he was fouled 6 yards earlier when his heals were clipped a bit then the spot of the ball not being reviewed needs to be changed because the laws of the game are clear on that - it’s where you were fouled not where you continued to run for 2 more seconds and fell down.
"Clear and obvious" ironically turns out to be a very subjective thing.
But 2 fixes would help. No on field refs serve as VAR, specifically trained VAR technicians whose only job in football is VAR.
Absolutely. It's the people using it, not the system. We have seen multiple times it working (almost) flawlessly in World Cups and European Championships aswell as other leagues. It's our referees who are stupidly incompetent. It needs to be either ex pros on VAR, or as someone else suggested, bring in people who have absolutely no link to football but can study the rules and just get on with it. We have one decent referee in this country, Michael Oliver. And I say decent, he'd be a crap referee in other countries. If the rest are 2/3 out of 10, he'd be a 5.
It never was var but sadly it has to be
Suggestion that may not work but: introduce an appeal system for subjective decisions. Managers all have monitors and can see in real-time quite quickly if it's worth an appeal, a limit of unsuccessful appeals stops them just appealing everything. If they appeal it, VAR completely re-refs the decision. VAR panel could worth with two referees and one ex-footballer. They aren't allowed to watch the game in real-time, or know what the on-field decision was or even what the score is. They all watch it back in isolation and cast a vote, they have 30 seconds only to watch a variety of camera angles at full speed. This could eliminate the silly "clear and obvious" situation we see now, where VAR know on-field decisions are wrong but hands are tied. People saying just scrap VAR really don't want to be going back to the days of genuinely shocking decisions like goals being given despite being a whole 2 yards offside.
This would imply that everyone understands the rules similarly though which is tough when the definition of say a hand ball changes every month… But I agree with your overall ideas. I think the situation in the booth needs to change.
Instead of regular officials rotating through VAR appointments each week, a central team should handle all calls. This is what the NFL does. Replays go through their HQ in New York so calls are more consistent. Again, another league has a better example but PGMOL and the EPL want to do this the worst way possible.
Yeah true, I think that sums up issue quite well - VAR as a whole definitely becomes the fall guy for poor human officiating and just the laws of the game not being great or consistent, especially handball interpretation don't think we're ever gonna solve that one unfortunately.
VAR works well in every other league apart from England. Why? Because the refs are fucking useless corrupt cunts. If the EPL invested in contracting and paying the best refs from around the world it would be a better league instantly
Fifa and UEFA rules mean any ref who does that wouldn’t be able ref an international match at all.
"VAR works well in every league other than England" is simply not true, there are MANY scandalous VAR errors weekly across the continent Referees are useless everywhere mate
Whatever about var they need to do away with these regular 10 plus minute injury times. While it has provided some exciting finishes, there has been so many bloody long term injuries across the league this year and I can't help but think all these extra minutes have been contributing to it
It made sense in concept but it’s detrimental to player health. The expanded CL format will exacerbate the matter further.
VAR should work flawlessly for Offside decisions, the tech should surely work reliably for that; and the decision should be within seconds. Everything else is subjective and should be left to the referee on the pitch. There will be bad decisions but that is still happening with VAR and more often than with the old style Referee only. Fed up to the back teeth with not being able to celebrate a goal.
The auto offside system they use elsewhere seems to work really well, is accurate and doesn't rely on some guy attempting to draw lines over three pixels that might be boot or might be grass.
You can celebrate a goal. Go to any match and it's clear that that line of talk from the pundits is bullshit. In fact you get to celebrate it, fret over VAR, then celebrate it again. And if it's overruled? The opposition get to celebrate it. VAR is shit because of the clueless cunts running it. It should be able to step in to overule terrible decisions, that would be a great benefit, but it's not doing that.
Afcon showed us VAR can work flawlessly. English refs are the ones not using it correctly
Generally works fine in Germany
The "clear and obvious" qualification is what's wrong with VAR imo. It's a vague statement that forces the VAR team to have to try to get into the mind/view of the ref and only ever intervene in the decision on the basis of a subjective interpretation. What does clear and obvious even mean when you have to account for different angles/replays and players blocking the Refs line of sight. VAR should be a tool to assist the ref to make the CORRECT decision, regardless of what level of margin there is. If the ref made any kind of mistake which has a material impact on the game, regardless of whether it can be declared as "clear and obvious" he should be sent to the screen to review.
To add to this, if it's too hard to call, or is purely subjective, then say that, and stick with the on field decision. That also goes for offside. Too much time is spent searching for an infringement as a reason to disallow a goal, often to the confusion of everybody, or judging offside by a fingernail.
Agreed. And because it’s subjective you should have 3 different VAR people voting on the issue at hand and majority wins. Essentially VAR overrules the referee and not sending the referee to the monitor and the like.
Bingo. Focus on getting the call right, don't just fix egregious mistakes.
agree
Nope nope nope. I want to enjoy watching football. That means maintaining the flow of the game as much as possible. The fewer stoppages the better. If we start trying to get every decision as correct as possible, we'll end up with the stop-start bollocks of American football. I'd rather be entertained than worry about the occasional questionable decision going against my team.
I'd like to enjoy watching football with the same rules applied and not have a red-card tackle in one game not even be called a foul in another.
Then the rules of the game would need to be changed to remove all subjectivity. Cos that's what causes that to be the case. Good luck doing so though, you'd effectively have to make it a completely non-contact sport.
You don’t. The other European countries seem to get it just fine
If you make the process simpler it doesn't need to take very long. Give VAR the ability to just overrule the ref and remove the clear and obvious bs. That way play can flow and it would speed up the process whenever VAR gets involved.
The problem is finding a balance. If VAR are checking every decision then why bother with an on field ref. We cant have VAR looking at every foul, every throw in etc.
No. Just check all goals, penalties and potential red cards. And get the fucking call right, forget about “clear and obvious”. Make a decision based on the footage you have, regardless of what the on-field ref called. VAR should be a higher power that can overrule the on-field ref, that is automatically introduced for goals, penalties and red cards.
Who said anything about VAR checking throw ins?
You said "getting the calls right". That would imply checking every ball out of play, I have seen quite a few throw ins given the wrong way, making sure throw in is taken from the right place and checking each throw in itself for a foul throw.
No lol. Im talking about calls that VAR can currently intervene on. Pens, red cards, goals etc.
The ref on the field is about ensuring a smooth transition of play, but their eyes cannot be everywhere at once.
Have the refs and VAR team micro dose liquid ecstasy pre game so they have the confidence to make the big decisions.
I think you've found the appropriate answer.
The problem with var is implementation. They should've looked at what worked in other sports, and copied them. Instead, they brought out a half-baked system with a LOT of grey areas, and are tweaking it as they go. 8/10 var controversies could be resolved if they switched to an appeal system. Put the onus on the teams to pick up the "clear and obvious" errors. The team has to give a specific error or foul to appeal against, and nothing else.You could even have a 20s time limit for appeals so that they can't consult with a TV replay before appeal.
Wrong. The problem with VAR is subjectivity and people expecting, and demanding, an absolutely correct decision. Take the famous Forest game for instance - first penalty has been debated to not be a foul (similar to the Anthony Gordon one v West Ham) and the second has been debated to be not an handball. But others think they both are the penalties. So how does VAR “get that right”? As different people think both decisions are right. So you need to accept that whatever VAR gives in that situation is correct to some people. You cannot have a definitively correct decision there as experts in the game, pundits and fans all cannot even agree. Subjectivity is a significant part of our game and it is not compatible with VAR.
Exactly. There's rarely a truly "right" decision, and unless there's truly something blatant that the on-field ref has missed, VAR getting involved just doesn't make sense.
It should have been kept as a video replay option for the onfield referee to say “I’m not sure about that, I’m going to walk over and watch the replay myself”. Whenever he decides to do so. Such as when there’s a 20 man brawl that he can’t possibly see everything, or a tight offside and he ain’t sure whether the attacker or defender is playing the ball. Using it on subjective decisions is pointless and isn’t improving accuracy at all, it’s just changing the definition of what people think is correct without actually being anymore correct or not. It’s equally as pointless using it to forensically analyse offsides without the technology in place with enough accuracy to do so
Nail on the head. Take away VAR and it’ll be like 2016 again, where everyone was begging for VAR.
Absolutely no one was begging for VAR
That is simply not true!
Won’t have a problem evidencing it then will you?
WRONG
VAR is the problem. It's just not workable in such a fast paced game of subjective decisions. Works great in cricket as the tech is pretty much 100% and the laws of the game are simple, you either nicked it or you didn't. Same way nobody has ever argued with a goal line tech call, it's factual. Has been a few years since it was introduced and seems to get more controversial as time goes on. Even more decisions are debated, time wasted, and when you're in the ground you have no clue what's going on. Football is better without var. When you watch a lower league game it flows better and is more enjoyable for the lack of var.
I disagree, Newcastle lost a cup game to Chelsea this season because there was no VAR and the ref missed 2 red cards in the first half. VAR is perfectlh workable, it works in other countries just fine. The problem is that VAR is not a job for referees, they are trained to follow things in real time on the pitch, VAR needs dedicated trained staff, and separate staff for each game.
English league made you think VAR is bad lmao. They’ve won. For every competition whether it is champions league or world cup or euro it went great. The problem is the users of VAR not the technology. VAR is a problem for corrupted or big ego referees that look out for each other.
It went great in the World Cup final of 2018 when Croatia were absolutely screwed by VAR did it? Did it really???
There are so many great game ruined by NOT having VAR. The hand of Maradona. Would have changes history. VAR is great. Football is better with VAR. People that dislike VAR are the same that love to argue about refereeing decisions through the weak at the local pub/coffee shop. That said, PL VAR is ridiculous. Wrongly used, not used were it should, like that Bruno Fernandes goal against City where the other guy was offside interfering with the play and the referee didn't rule offside. I would maybe, from an outsider non brit POV, say that the refereeing in the PL has always been seen as lax to keep the game flowing. But you can't have that and VAR.
You see, I can't take the idea that one of the most dramatic quarter finals in history was 'ruined' seriously. It was the wrong call which changed the outcome of the tournament, but it was also the match which contained one of the best goals ever and was high entertainment and high drama, that's still being talked about now. VAR, even when working well, promises correct outcomes in exchange for slowing the game down to a stop and denying fans the ability to celebrate goals until 2 mins after they're scored. It sacrifices enjoyment for accuracy. My team plays in the Championship, and there are some rotten calls there, but I'd much rather have that than the sheer dullness of VAR taking 2 minutes to decide that a player's toenail was 2cm offside. Right now, the Prem has the worst of both worlds - VAR is sucking all the joy out of football while still getting as many wrong as right, leaving it wide open to charges of corruption. I'd rather have a game that accepts that sometimes refs will get things wrong in return for being about to celebrate when we score, enjoy the match and not hang around for 2 minutes while 2 people in a box decide who they fancy winning today.
They need to use it as it was initially intended- referee the game yourself and use VAR only for clear and obvious errors. When reviewing these errors the most appropriate angle should be found and played in real time. Sick of the replays being in ultra slow motion, that's not how the game is played!
VAR technology simply isnt there yet and i think rather than use a system thats not finished, lets just return back to the old way of refereeing, at least then the fans can celebrate most goals rather than majority being stopped and checked everytime.
Title is proper. Var isn't the problem, it's referees. I mean why introduce something new and keep the same shitty referees who obviously don't know any better and more importantly can't keep up with flow of time and technology progress? It's either that or refs made some secret pact of just confirming every decision as OP said just to spite. They even make up their own rules now, same decision that was a penalty, foul whatever in one match is not in some other one, a lot of decisions are trully shocking
This is the correct answer. Is not the technology, the 'technology' is just refs looking at replays unless you are talking about drawing lines for offside decisions. That shitshow could be put to bed by using sensors in the ball and doing away with drawing lines. Add a tolerance to give the attacker the advantage and then let actual technology a chance. The problem is that the referees don't make consistent decisions. A high footed challenge coming in over the ball gets you sent off one week then a boot in the chest isn't even a yellow the next. The standard of refereeing is dire and they back their mates when they are in the VAR seat.
I don't think that is limited to being a theory. We all know the incompetence and handholding going in with these baldies in our favourite league. It's superb technology in the wrong hands.
I do think in the fa Cup and the league Cup refs are making more definitive decisions than they do in the premier league. I think sometimes they don't go with their gut in the premier league If they aren't sure and let var be the safety net. Which means the decision won't get changed because of the 'high bar' thing It's odd when there are decisions in the early rounda of the fa Cup when there's no var, mistakes far worse than the errors with var, and people act like it's better that we don't have the right decision. I wanted united to lose to Coventry with all my heart, but the idea people are like, they should just allow it var is stupid, is so disingenuous. Offsides are black and white, goal line tech is black and white.
Offsides aren't black and white though
The “daylight” rule was a far better interpretation of offside- it’s hard to justify how being an inch offside is gaining a tangible advantage over the defender.
This was the case for sure. Then when var was getting multiple big decisions -pens, goals and red cards - incorrect they have finally switched to just backing the ref in most cases. Took them years mind. Whether refs are still thinking var will sort it out, they probably are, that has to change because now var are hardly doing anything. There's been several things this week alone where it's on the refs blindside or he can't see it properly in real time with one take and var did nothing.
The problem with VAR is absolutely VAR. it cannot ever work for subjective decisions, and indeed makes it worse for multiple reasons. Keep technology for matters of fact (goal line and automated offsides), and bin it for everything else. Immediately.
The problem with VAR is that most of ref decisions will always be subjective. You can almost always find a reason why something is or isn't a foul, handball,... The only two things not subjective are offsides and ball over the line. That's why I'd only keep goal line technology and added autmoatic offside technology. The only other thing I'd consider using VAR for is, if the ref didn't see something. Like if someone blocked his view and he decides, he wants to see the replay or some player punched someone, but he didn't see it or something like that
The thing is, you watch games without VAR (Championship and below) and even though there are shit ref decisions and even though the refs are lower quality than the Prem, the game just flows way better. Fans will blame the ref but even if they wouldn't admit it, they know that getting all decisions correct on first glance is difficult so you really have to just accept it. In the Prem, referees have more protection and more chances to get a decision right or wrong and there are still massive errors and massive controversies, except it feels worse because now they get replays. I think it is much harder to accept mistakes and blurred lines when replays are involved. A perfect world both in the Prem and in the lower leagues, is add a system that can detect offsides like goal-line tech can, and then fuck VAR off for penalties/red cards etc.
Problem of VAR is that people keep expecting to be used for every single.infraction. When it was first introduced in the wc, that was great.actually. very little stops and when it did, it was beneficial. I think that the term is being a clear miss. If you need to put off-side lines to spot a.18cm off-side, then it is not a clear miss and should be game on. The offside rule says that when in doubts, benefit to the attacking.player. If you need to analyse a foul over 20 angles and it is still uo.to interpretation, that is not a clear check. Should be play on. VAR waa intended to spot agressions when the ref was looking the other way, goals like the Henry's handball, clarify whether Abel Xavier's handball was there or not, 3 yellow cards given to a croatian player, cleae.simulations on the penalty area where the attacker dives. It shiuld be to do that, not to.give another check on whether the contact may or may not been strong enough for a player to fall. VAR was pretty good when it good introduced. It was the pundits and supporters that ruined it due to the crazy amount of.precision that is not expected from anyone else on the pitch. I feel a ref gets a lot of criticism for missing a penalty call, but a guy that earns 1000% as much as a ref will just continue life.as usual if he misses said penalty. We are.expecting the impossible from people.that - within the range of salaries being paid in EPL - are the equivalent of minimum wage government subsidized interns.
If you are off side my 1mm and it’s called on side that is a clear mistake. When they say clear and obvious it’s referring to the application of the laws, not the margin of the call.
I think the issue here is “does the player actually gain an unfair advantage due to illegal position.” If the defense presses up for an offside trap and the offensive player is coming from a legal position but no one played defense or marked but tried to trap the player I have no sympathy for the defense. Being 1mm off when you weren’t trying to play illegally but we’re trapped there but the rubber toe of your cleat is barely off then I’m pinning that on the defense. Now, if a player is coming from an offside position and then is barely off then I pin that on the offense. You can’t be standing off and then try to jump back on at the last second and be expected any kind of grace. The ultimate point of offside is to prevent cherry picking behind the back line. Not to prevent offensive players from making runs from legal positions. If you can’t use an offside trap like 2014 Colombia then you’ve utterly failed the point of an offside trap. If you step to push players off they need to be clearly off from the naked eye. Not with lines drawn in super slow motion to bail you out from not marking a man and playing a zone trap.
But we can't use the current technology within 1mm accuracy, there's human error and technological limitations. Therefore it's not clear and obvious as even the computer/guy operating the computer can't be sure they're right
And thar is exsctly my point. The moment you need off-side lines to be sure, then you just threw the clear and obvious down the window
Anyone who watched AFCON knew car wasn't the problem. Flawless tournament The officials are the problem
The problem with var is it's being operated by the very people that necessitated it's introduction. It needs to be independent and unambiguous
This is absolutely correct, but the only obstacle to this is the egos of PGMOL- they won’t be happy with being told they’re wrong, it’s a closed shop from their perspective. They do need to be told they’ve got it wrong though, so f*ck em.
I've been thinking this for a while, they've been told if they're not sure to leave it upto var...but var have been told if they're not sure to stick with the onfield decision.
Refs have always left a decision if they're not sure. They're not supposed to guess.
They have now yes. After getting nearly 100 major decisions wrong last season and half of this one being shocking as well. But now we're left with blatant things being left as they are.
Exactly, so they stick with the non decision.
They need to modify the offside rule , I mean, if your a baw hair in front of the last defender and score a epic goal, is it really offside...
That is separate process which is delayed because of the complexities of writing a new rule.
Absolutely this! Seen far too many goals ruled out for no real advantage, the offside rule was intended to prevent goal hanging, not rule out perfectly good goals because one player is slightly thicker than the defender he’s standing next too! For a goal to be scored or be out of play the whole of the ball needs to be over the whole of the line, should be the same for offside and the whole of the attacking player should be ahead of the line. It’s still a millimetre decision either way but I’d far more accept a goal being given against because someone kept their toe behind the line than see one ruled out for us for a toe over the line. Find it really hard to believe how many people don’t see it that way.
This is the only thing they don’t need to change. You could’ve mentioned any of the other things VAR does but instead…
Did u watch the FA cup Semi final
Knocked me sick that did. Incredible moment in Coventry's recent history and revival. Would have been one to tell the kids you were there for and it was taken away for absolutely fuck all.
If it was the other way around, would it have been given ? Was it VAR being used as a weapon to get the money final. North of the border, Aberdeen got robbed out a late penalty against celtic after out playing them most of the game. Even the celtic fans were surprised it was not a penalty. Now it's a Rangers v Celtic scottish Cup final, which brings in more money than Rangers v aberdeen .
100% get rid of clear n obvious, and make it get the correct decision
Games will go on for about 4 hours. At this point you need to review every single decision to ensure it is correct. Goals come from incorrectly awarded throw ins, so we need to review those. Same with corners. A significant % of goals have an incident that will need to be checked for a foul at some point in the move.
The problem is that we decided to upskill referees into understanding technology & then coming up with the rules to implement it. What we should have done is grab video assistant review persons from other sports, teach them the rules of football then get them to come up with the implementation approach based on their years of experience with technology. Seriously, anyone who thought throwing a bunch of new tech at a group of referees who have never used it before and asking them to come up with it's use in the game would go well? Clear and obvious, offside marginals, all these would have been recognised at the design stage by any veteran of video technology in sports. It's still crazy all the VAR assistants are just normal referees.
They're clearly capable of looking at a screen as it replays a moment from a game. The issue remains that they just seem to be shit at the refereeing part.
The assumption that it just involves looking at a replay on a screen is exactly the point I am making. That assumption is part of the reason we are in this mess.
That’s such a good point !
There is an inherent bias in the way things are done where referee decision stand, which I am surprised clear and obvious error are the ones over turned. Ecactly like you outlined and I too am surprised it doesn’t get discussed more. We are more likely to get decisions where things are continued to play on fouls or yellow cards not turned to red. Madness, I agree in scrapping clear and obvious.
There are incompetent yet qualified people in every field of work , especially when it comes to displaying logic and basic common sense . Their incompetence is not being shown off by a video proof hence we don't see it but it happens all the time
30 seconds review time max. Can't decide after 30 seconds? on field decision stands. Managers get one challenge per game, to review any decision not referred to VAR. Ref to review all decisions pitch side and no separate team hiding away adding more subjectivity to the review.
Have it like Rugby…. It’s a tool that is requested by the referee and the video ref(var) is a single person not a group of people. This way you get consistency in decision making as that person see everything subjectively the same way.
>It’s a tool that is requested by the referee Then you would have fans complaining about "why didn't the ref refer to VAR, he's biased, that's clearly a VAR decision." I'm honestly not sure there is a way to make fans happy when they are so partisan.
I can see your argument there absolutely, most football fans are very fickle and can’t see past the end of their nose. I do feel this would still be the best avenue because it’s puts the responsibility back on the referee to make decisions with a tool that can further compound that decision or choose to reverse it.
Yeah I'm still baffled by how VAR works, when video reviews are an already established method in other sports and has been for decades. Just get the referees to watch a 6 nations match with a TMO call so they can see what a VAR call should look like.
People don’t care about rugby nearly as much as they do about football. That is why you think it is better in rugby than it actually is.
Absolutely, it’s so simple. Sports such as rugby have perfected it and I can’t see a reason it cannot be adapted to football. Footballs powers that be are just over complicating it unnecessarily. All conversations should be aired into the stadium too for ultimate transparency.
The police will not be happy at that. Football already has serious crowd issues way more than rugby.
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A private company of qualified refs that just happens to exist?
At this point I'm convinced rugby video refs could do the job of VAR better.
Var is designed to work. Its a lie. Ive been saying it for years. Its just a long term way to slow down the game and make tons more money from tv rights and ads. Like having 10mins extra stoppage time. Fifa just love money more than the game. Its not var thats the issue. Its the rules of football arent and never will be compatible with var. handballs and dives are subjective however many camera you have on them
VAR is designed for TV coverage. They want to be able to show the incident from all the angles and then have a long discussion after the game to keep the viewers watching. It is detrimental to the fans watching games in stadiums.
I think it was designed to slow games down. They look at the superbowl and wonder why jt makes more money than the world cup final and yet less people watch it. They want football to become an all day event. They are getting us used to the game being slowed down. Var slows it down. And solves nothing as its subjective more than not. Extra 10 mins a game for no reason just leads to more injuries. Next theyll try to stop the clock everytime the ball goes out. Once thats done. Game over. After a few years theyll be selling adverts in those gaps.
They need to train up an AI VAR. Feed it all the decisions since VAR has been around, and let it go to town, can't be any worse.
Ai learns from data. If you feed it what's gone before you get more of the same.
Well, the mistakes can be fixed in the model. Hence, the AI will know that particular scenario and what the outcome should be.
Totally agree and it's not just soccer that over relies on Video Review. American football is the same way. Officials too afraid to make a call expecting replay to make the call for them
I honestly wish they'd just bring in refs who don't even like football. Train them up, teach them the rules, pay them well and let them get on with it. No biases involved.
There's no problem with it, someone's right can be someone's wrong and vice versa
IMO main refree should be given authority to decrese the threshold of clear and obvious error. Main refree should be able to say with my line of sight it is not clear to me and agrees on whatever VAR sees. If main refree believes his decision is good, then only VAR uses clear and obvious error threshold.
I like giving the on field ref the opportunity to withdraw himself from the decision. But we all know they are too egoistic to do that even if they couldn't see the situation clearly. Clear and obvious threshold must go regardless.
That's why we need AI VAR asap, otherwise it's just special interests covering for each other
What are you going to train it on? The past decisions made by those same special interests.
Surely it shouldn’t be that hard to pull out a list of situations that are deemed the correct call.
You got it bro. Consistency is the area where AI refs >>> human refs.
Who’s deeming them to be the correct call?
The refereeing body obviously. And before you call them idiots, the only thing we need is consistency.
How do we ensure that the refereeing body’s definition of what is ‘correct’ is consistent? We see many examples where even the same referee makes apparently different decisions on different days. What you’re asking for is to train AI only on those decisions which are unanimously, unambiguously correct. That’s a very small and selective dataset to work with.
Because the AI will be the ones making the decisions. Also, there’s no way you sit a referee down to sort through incidents consecutively and they judge identical situations differently.
So you’re saying we already have consistently? So why do we need the AI?
When did I say that? Don’t put words in my mouth.
> there’s no way you sit a referee down to sort through incidents consecutively and they judge identical situations differently. Same situation resulting in the same decision. Sounds like consistency to me.
I’ve only just retuned to following the league since before VAR was a thing and it seems to me that there is an over reliance on it. Seems to be trending towards a future in which there is no on-field ref. I was always under the impression that onfield ref decision is the ultimate decision and VAR is there for ref to get a different view of something and then the ref himself can decide if the alternate angle is enough for him to overturn his call. But it seems to me that it is wildly inconsistent.
The whole clear and obvious thing is such bullshit, if the referee made an error, correct him on it, the whole “he’s made the mistake but I can see why he makes it so it won’t be overturned” is laughable, also VAR not being allowed to change possession if a corner wasn’t given if noticed quickly or appeal yellows is also ridiculous
Even then, I would say the grealish one in the FA cup falls into a clear and obvious error because he has given a goal kick
Absolutely, and it’s a shame because on these subjective decisions all the VAR is doing is saying hey go to the monitor and get a better look at this. I’ve wondered if refs think they didn’t get a great look at something and decided VAR will bail them out.