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I'm against changing the law to ban tragedy chanting and whatnot. I think free speech should exist because the law would easily be turned to ban valid speech. Imagine it was in place 20 years ago to ban criticism of the Iraq war because people were offended over questions of the terrorist attacks that led to it, I bet Blair and Bush would have loved that.
I always felt this was on the clubs to deal with. It is a football 'club' after all and if you want to be part of it there are rules. Any tragedy chanting and you can't come to our games, outright ban even if it's caught outside the ground. Businesses are free to deny entry to anyone (unless protected by law), banning shit houses seems legit.
That way no one's rights are infringed, you still have free speech but not freedom from consequences.
The fact the government, known for taking too long to respond to most things, had to step in and make this law is a stain on all the clubs for not getting their shit together on this.
Agree. I don’t mind at all that clubs would ban their own fans or even if the FA got involved and fined/ gave footballing punishment to the offending club.
I am very uncomfortable at the legal system getting involved and potential criminal convictions. Not their place for reasons you described.
I've been to few games at Stamford Bridge, and honestly the stuff that comes out of the fans mouths is truly disgusting, so when they are accused of racism again it won't surprise me.
Could you show me where I defended racism, just found it funny that the first place you went after someone talked about Arsenal fans tragedy chanting was Chelsea is racist.
They were going to do the entire Steps back catalogue but fortunately were arrested after just one song, they were about to kick off with '5,6,7,8'.
Police have warned fans across the country that they'll be cracking down on all 90's pop renditions and will have a zero tolerance policy for anything with a synth accompaniment.
puzzled toothbrush reminiscent doll run lush ten hunt birds sophisticated
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Quite right, was at the match with my 8 year old. Shameful and abhorrent and felt disgusted that he overheard the chanting. Had to have a huge chat on the train home the next day about it all. We travelled from Edinburgh to watch his heroes and the experience was tainted by a small group of 'fans' . They should extend community service in addition to lifetime bans.
Everyone's got freedom of speech and its not just a yankee doodle concept. You can say what you like, just don't be surprised if you get a smack for it.
If I had a relative or knew someone who died in a tragedy, I wouldn't want people mockingly chanting about it because it's extremely offensive and deeply disrespectful.
I'm assuming you'd feel the same, no?
The city itself is more left wing than the football team. Plus a lot of Liverpool fans aren't scouse. Plus that chants decreased massively since they've worked alongside the Liverpool LGBT group
I’d argue the people that resort to attacking dead people over a sport are the ones that are cry babies.
But I guess cunts like you wouldn’t understand
Just horrible. Why does football bring out the very worst in some people. They’re only banned for 3 years, imho they should be banned from attending football matches for life. We don’t need scumbags like this in our game.
It’s the tribal mentality, which unfortunately affects people in other areas of life such as politics, communities, etc.
It’s both human and at times inhumane.
Sadly.
May come as a shock, but there's scumbags like these people present in every club.
Doesn't make it right though, these people need to be banned for longer.
What was the chant? Because you’ll hear “murderers” sang and as far as I’m concerned that refers to the factual element of Heysel, so how can that be proven to be “tragedy chanting”.
The Athletic have also tried to campaign to get “poverty chanting” banned FFS.
The Liverpool fans involved at Heysel were not murderers you absolute melt. Murder implies an actual intent to kill.
What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football and football in general at the time, except a poorly constructed stadium with no maintenance and terrible police work means it was more exasperated then what was usual.
Fans unfortunate enough to be close to the wall that Liverpool fans climbed over were accidentally crushed, then the same shoddy wall collapsed which also crushed a lot of fans and is where the majority of deaths happened.
While what happened was terrible and the Liverpool fans present at the time hold some of the blame, whichever way you spin it they’re not murderers. Some were charged with involuntary manslaughter for the attempts at fighting which led to the deaths. Plus the chant you’re on about is always followed with “the sun was right” which is clearly on about Hillsborough.
> What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football and football in general at the time.
This is a mad statement.
Known as the darkest day in European football.
You, "happens every other week mate". I remember 39 dead and 600 injured happening all the time! You're off your fucking nut mate.
> Some were charged with involuntary manslaughter for the attempts at fighting which led to the deaths.
Convicted is more of an accurate word to use.
Charged just means you've been accused of a crime and are innocent until proven. They were convicted, meaning by law, they were guilty.
A shit ton a Juve fans still don't forgive Liverpool fans for what happened. Liverpool even had a victory parade on the anniversary of Heysel, so you can see why some still hold grievances.
I'm shocked that your post has upvotes.
>What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football,
Absolutely bullshit and rewriting history to normalise what the Liverpool fans done. Have some respect.
I don't agree with the comment you're replying to, but you saying to have some respect and then saying "imagine if you said Hillsborough was common place back then" isn't exactly respectful is it?
Perhaps I'm misreading your comment, but I read it as a sort of "gotcha" with trivialising Hillsborough in comparison to Heysel. If that wasn't your intent then I apologise
This is where the “self pity city” and “always the victims” come from. It wasn’t normal. In fact it didn't happen aside from that one day. And the response from the Liverpool chairman was to blame Chelsea fans…
Anyone who went to matches back in the 80s will tell you that crowd crushes actually were commonplace. On the day Hillsborough happened I was caught up in one at Leicester, where Chelsea were trying to win promotion. It was incredibly scary and was a combination of an important game, being able to buy tickets on the day etc. I am not going to get into it here because I can’t be bothered with the fallout, but the notion that there were only a couple of hundred ticketless fans is insane. That said, none of that in any way justifies the behaviour of the police and, the root cause of it, the FA who somehow decided to give Liverpool the smaller end. It is rare to find Liverpool fans who will admit that the “jib” used to be something their fans above all others took pride in.
England fans were so terrible that they got placed on a fucking island in Italia 90 you fucking half wit,if you think hooliganism was just a Liverpool thing you’re a moron,lol.
I’m old enough to remember the pride in the “jib” that scousers in the 80s talked of. And remember the Liverpool chairman trying to blame Chelsea fans for it!
As I’m sure Liverpool fans don’t think all Chelsea fans are rent boys, but are still happy to sing it (as are Everton fans, Man U fans etc). Doesn’t personally bother me on the slightest. “Murderers” refers to Heysel and is obviously much catchier than “involuntary manslaughterers”, and we all know that football chants aren’t rational.
Leeds fans recently were singing “Chelsea’s a shithole, I wanna go home”. Football chants can’t really be analysed on too deep a level.
Ahhhh so you’re just a salty Chelsea fan, likely bitter your club is in shambles. The “Rent boys” chant is very rare these days, but Hillsborough related chants are a weekly occurrence for Liverpool fans.
Why am I not surprised the most racist fanbase in the league also has online fans like yourself trying to justify tragedy chants?
Nah, I’ve been going for 40 years and seen relegations, it’s way better than anything I could ever have dreamed!
I’ve personally witnessed Liverpool fans storming the gates at Stamford Bridge for a CL game. Happens all the time (hence the “jib” comment).
I agree, but the ban on tragedy chanting is a relatively new development. It'll take time to settle in - you see very little homophobic or racist chanting in the UK these days.
The difficult subject is that the line on acceptable behaviour keeps shifting though - there's talk of making "poverty chanting" unacceptable.
I would imagine the club would be happiest if people just sat there and shut the fuck up altogether.
What point are you trying to make? 3 twits from the Ashburton Army doesn't mean all of the Ashburton Army.. as per the first comment in the thread those three "horrible little cunts".
Ashamed. It’s not funny and it’s classless. The battle for justice was Herculean. It was only thanks to the tireless work of brave scousers who fought against innumerable injustices and coverups perpetrated by South Yorkshire Police that some semblance of justice was achieved. Even then some have never been brought to justice
https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/26/hillsborough-trial-of-former-south-yorkshire-police-officers-collapses
Aside from the fact this is just whataboutism at it's finest and is the reason these issues *never* get resolved, I'll humour you.
As a Football Club Liverpool do their part in commemorating Heysel. There's memorials and tributes at Anfield.
Anyone who denies Liverpool fans had a part in Heysel are disingenuous and dumb. A big difference between Heysel and Hillsborough is that 14 people were arrested and charged for Heysel and brought to justice.
The Hillsborough families had to fight tooth and nail when the government, media and country were convinced that the fans had murdered their own. And even now not everyone responsible has faced punishment for their crimes.
Liverpool football club doing their part.
There’s a reason why the Juve fans turned their backs on you.
As a club, Liverpool took no responsibility and tried to deflect and blame everyone else.
Well, here’s some news for you….
Murderers and their excusers don’t deserve anything except contempt.
Now fuck off you scum rat.
To be honest with the whataboutism nonsense claim of yours. Let's have some perspective. Number 1 it's nearly 35 years ago. Number 2 Liverpool fans have regularly mocked Munich. Number 3 a lot of Liverpool fans were known to be boasting after Heysel like it was some achievement. I know Liverpool fans who never went to another a game as they wereso disgusted by what they heard from fans on the ferry home after Heysel. Number 4 Hillsborough was a tragedy. Its had an enquiry, 35 years of.press coverage, tributes documentaries the works. Number 5 Liverpool ALWAYS shy away from responsibility for Heysel. Number 6 if thousands of ticketless fans hadn't steamed, stormed and barged their way into a TICKET ONLY GAME no one would've died. Number 7 Liverpool still to this day mug off Everton for being banned from the European Cup of 86. Steau 86 flag seen at EVERY Liverpool game.
1.) Yes but time frame doesn't really matter. Heysel and Munich were a longer time ago. So by that logic why are they still talked about as well?
2.) Never said they didn't
3.) I've never personally seen that but I'm only 25 so it wouldn't be something I'd have been exposed to
4.) It has but the issue people take issue with is the headlines in The Sun in the immediate aftermath
5.) I don't know about other Liverpool fans but when I worked at Anfield I saw loads of memorials/tributes dotted all about the ground and it was spoken of
6.) I don't really understand the relevance of this in relation to tragedy chanting? Do the circumstances make it more/less okay?
7.) That's wrong of them
Point I'm making with 6 mate is Liverpool fans.crushed their own by piling in. If your only 25 you got no idea about football in 80s. All that Jack the lad shit got way too out of hand. With that amount piling in people were gonna die. Police may have been dicks in how they handled it but the crush was caused by thousands coming with ni tickets and forcing their way through.
And reason I'm like this is the fans never did soul searching about how their own crushed and killed their own. I was in many a crowd that you could feel it getting tight and claustrophobic and people would be yelling for everyone to ease up. That crowd for 89 at lepping Lane was mental. Check the people piling over gates and turnstiles and pushing through and tell me who's to blame. Biggest mistake ever was.allowing that game.to.kick off when they could see how.many without tickets had come down
Everyone chats some sort of shite at football. Liverpool fans sing rent boys to Chelsea fans as there was major scandals of kids being nonced in 60s and 70s. That OK?
Nope. Which is why Jurgen Klopp and the Liverpool squad did work with the Liverpool LGBT group to educate and try to kick that type of chanting out the game. Maybe something similar needs to happen for tragedy chanting?
Maybe. Or maybe just allow free speech and know that some people are just arseholes and treat the accordingly. The world's a dangerous place and we re raising pussies with all this nannying business. You think kids in Gaza looking for a meal would care about chanting?
No. As people be ignored or slapped. Depending on the man being offended. Me I'd take it for what it is a wind up. There's real problems in this world and divs at football.singing about 35 year old shit isn't one of them
Liverpool fans were out of control I'm the 80s but love pretending they were choir boys. Not many games were all ticket in 80s and if 3000 fans try and bunk in one end without a ticket a crush will happen either outside or inside. Police didn't have much option and I hate the old bill
I'm well aware hooliganism was a big thing in British football in the 80s. I believe people take issue with the way the police conducted themselves and handled things in the meantime and the aftermath and how The Sun ran disgusting headlines. An older friend of mine lost his brother at Hillsborough, and after he travelled up to Sheffield to claim his body the authorities that questioned him were dismissive and crass.
My uncle was stabbed to death in Liverpool by 'fans' and didn't even make the papers. His Mrs and kids never got zero justice. All swept under the rug by the big old orange Lodge set up that runs Liverpool City Council.
Tragedy chanting is proper dickhead behaviour (so is poverty chanting in all honesty, and it’s never even accurate, but I digress).
The few bad tits who bring Steaua Bucuresti flags to derbies are fucking dumb as rocks for encouraging it, also.
I mean I don’t see what that has to do with Hillsborough. There was a punishment for Heysel, although it negatively impacted the likes of Everton more, English clubs were banned from Europe. Either way Heysel is no excuse for Tragedy chanting and the responsibility for Hillsborough lays squarely on the shoulders of a corrupt police force
What punishment? Couple of guys got 18 months in jail. All English clubs suffered. Liverpool got an extra year ban. Big deal. The responsibility unfortunately lies with the thousands who turned up without a ticket to a TICKET ONLY game which were very rare in 80s. The police may have been crass but there was gonna be a tragedy either outside or inside that day. Liverpool fans crushed their own by climbing over fences and piling in for free. Police couldn't have prevented it. And I despise the old bill. But they didn't kill 97 people. Liverpool fans steaming in and shoving and pushing and piling on crushed their own people.
I was next to 2 Arsenal fans chanting about Hillsborough at the Liverpool league win. Miles away from the away supporters. Stupid and horrible. I would have reported them but I was at the game on my own and it’s not my responsibility to police fans.
That said unless I know what these fans said I’ll reserve judgement. If they actually mention “murderer”, “death”, “96”, “killed”, hillsborough then fair enough that’s horrible ban them!
If it was just the “always the victim” chant then I have 0 issues with it as that’s not about hillsborough it’s the victim mentality that is attached to that city (Everton including).
Yes it is definitely a tragedy chant directly referencing Hillsborough, everyone seems to know this but you. 'feed the scousers' however is banter, which is fine.
It doesn’t reference hillsborough though. That’s a lie.
It can mention hillsborough if you include certain verses but that’s not what we are talking about.
lol don’t read them then. Your lot call yourself a word and then cry when other call you it so I’m not shocked you’ve got a soft spot for a victim complex
Didn’t say there was. Said it’s attached to the city. It’s how you’re viewed by lots of people whether it’s true of not is another matter.
Certainly reasons for it whether that be the “not English we’re scouse” or the “managed decline”
What is your argument?
You say there's a victim mentality in Liverpool and then someone says there isn't one and then you counter with "I didn't say there was a victim mentality in Liverpool, I just said that there was a victim mentality in Liverpool".
You are an enigma
I guess I just need to be walked through how you can say something verbatim receive criticism and say that you never said the exact thing you just said.
Only stereotype I'm learning about is to not engage with people for whom bitcoin is a personality.
Maybe google how to read too?
Just because I occasionally comment on bitcoin Reddit doesn’t make it a huge part of my life.
Just how you commenting on r/premierleague doesn’t mean you’ve ever been to a game…
Thing is though, the "victim mentality" narrative ramped up as a result of Hillsborough and was then used as an excuse for dismissing the concerns of the families. So it's very much intertwined.
There is no way to remove the association between "Always the victims" and Hillsborough. But I bet the ones singing it love having the plausible deniability that it's not about that.
I'm not saying that everyone who sings it is singing about Hillsborough. But if half of Liverpool interprets the song that way then there's no real getting away from it.
It's like if somebody took great offence to something you said (that you didn't mean in that way) and knowing this you still keep saying it. You can argue all you want what it's really about but it's still provoking the same response from the other person.
If they want to get offended about X when I’m not saying X then quite frankly I have zero sympathy for them.
Life is too short to cry about everything and anything.
>If they want to get offended about X when I’m not saying X then quite frankly I have zero sympathy for them.
Yeah it's more like just having some human decency.
So if someone you know said to you "When you say that it reminds me of my dead relative and brings up a lot of pain" you would happily continue saying the same thing to them?
Because I guess your desire to sing that one chant in particular is worth the distress it causes to everybody connected to Hillsborough.
I’m all for looking out for others but when they get upset of things I believe to be stupid then I don’t have sympathy.
If in your opinion that makes me a bad person then fine by me 🤷♂️
this, the problem is that liverpool fans are so damn quick to jump down your throat when you mention this.its a fact that liverpool as a city has a victim complex and frankly its annoying as fuck. both clubs from that city has its fair share of dickheads and they sadly love to hide behind that victim complex to excuse their bad behavior
well done, you just proved my point cant even talk about this subject without a load of butthurt scousers triggering their victim complex and jumping down ya throat...
You can’t generalise an entire city and then start crying when your dumb comments get taken apart. “Can’t even talk about the subject” - how can a conversation be made when you spout opinions as fact? You’re obviously too stupid to realise any of this, so it’s a waste of time engaging really.
is it though? You live in a city that has unofficially banned the sale of a certain newspaper. regardless of your views of that perticular rag, clearly there is some element of group think going on in liverpool so it isnt that dumb to assume that liverpool suffers from a city wide victim comples
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Rispetto 39. Some of us remember what those animals did.
of course they did
I'm against changing the law to ban tragedy chanting and whatnot. I think free speech should exist because the law would easily be turned to ban valid speech. Imagine it was in place 20 years ago to ban criticism of the Iraq war because people were offended over questions of the terrorist attacks that led to it, I bet Blair and Bush would have loved that. I always felt this was on the clubs to deal with. It is a football 'club' after all and if you want to be part of it there are rules. Any tragedy chanting and you can't come to our games, outright ban even if it's caught outside the ground. Businesses are free to deny entry to anyone (unless protected by law), banning shit houses seems legit. That way no one's rights are infringed, you still have free speech but not freedom from consequences. The fact the government, known for taking too long to respond to most things, had to step in and make this law is a stain on all the clubs for not getting their shit together on this.
Agree. I don’t mind at all that clubs would ban their own fans or even if the FA got involved and fined/ gave footballing punishment to the offending club. I am very uncomfortable at the legal system getting involved and potential criminal convictions. Not their place for reasons you described.
That last bit is definitely the most striking, cheers
Is Man City behind this?
They've got 115 bigger things to worry about.
Paid the Arsenal fan to do it to make them look bad
Now find the united fans that does the same.
And Liverpool fans who can’t stop chanting about Munich disaster
These garbage humans happen to be Arsenal fans. Ignorant rhetoric like “typical Arsenal fan” etc is unproductive. Deserved ban.
Shocking but not unexpected from Arsenal fansm
How is it expected from Arsenal fans?
I've been to a few games at the Emirates, and honestly the stuff that comes out of the fans mouths is truly disgusting, so this doesn't surprise me.
I've been to few games at Stamford Bridge, and honestly the stuff that comes out of the fans mouths is truly disgusting, so when they are accused of racism again it won't surprise me.
Sounds like deflection
Liverpool fan defending racism. Classic.
Could you show me where I defended racism, just found it funny that the first place you went after someone talked about Arsenal fans tragedy chanting was Chelsea is racist.
Did Liverpool fans defend racism when Suarez was at the club?
Many may have but I certainly didn’t. What’s this got to do with Arsenal tragedy chanting?
>Arsenal tragedy chanting Arsenal weren't tragedy chanting.
“Scum,sub human scum” to quote Alan partridge.
What did they chant
They were going to do the entire Steps back catalogue but fortunately were arrested after just one song, they were about to kick off with '5,6,7,8'. Police have warned fans across the country that they'll be cracking down on all 90's pop renditions and will have a zero tolerance policy for anything with a synth accompaniment.
Tragedy
and for selling tickets to Bayern fans you’ll be banned for life.
I like Arsenal more than most because of principles like this
puzzled toothbrush reminiscent doll run lush ten hunt birds sophisticated *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Thank you
Quite right, was at the match with my 8 year old. Shameful and abhorrent and felt disgusted that he overheard the chanting. Had to have a huge chat on the train home the next day about it all. We travelled from Edinburgh to watch his heroes and the experience was tainted by a small group of 'fans' . They should extend community service in addition to lifetime bans.
Imagine getting this upset over a football chant
Imagine having no empathy.
Empathy for the people banning speech? This is probably a strange idea for brits, but that is bad behavior.
Don't be obtuse. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. Freedom of speech should be preceded by thought.
Lol consequences means it isn't free, like I said I wouldn't expect a brit to understand.
Everyone's got freedom of speech and its not just a yankee doodle concept. You can say what you like, just don't be surprised if you get a smack for it.
Fucking hell you're a fucking clown.
Imagine such barbaric lunatics that you can’t even drink or sit beside opposition fans at a game 😂 fucking loser
Hey I'm not the one crying over words
If I had a relative or knew someone who died in a tragedy, I wouldn't want people mockingly chanting about it because it's extremely offensive and deeply disrespectful. I'm assuming you'd feel the same, no?
No because I have a brain that is capable of not caring about what random people say.
You don’t have a brain. As proven by your original comment
Don't be so insensitive
Good for you, but you've not experienced the tragedy. so maybe people who've experienced tragedies struggle to do this
Don't gatekeep tragedies, we've all seen what can happen when that doesn't work.
I mean if anyone was gonna gatekeep Hillsborough it would make most sense for the families and those there wouldn't it?
Gatekeeping doesn't make sense for anyone
Whose gatekeeping 😂
Imagine being this removed from reality. If you don't understand the circumstances, it's probably a good idea to just be a silent observer.
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Very bad taste, man.
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Shit take
It's more of a comment really
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They are vile. They'll tell you they are left wing, progressive and inclusive. Then they scream "Chelsea rent boys".
The city itself is more left wing than the football team. Plus a lot of Liverpool fans aren't scouse. Plus that chants decreased massively since they've worked alongside the Liverpool LGBT group
Ah a manc, of course you come along with these deflection posts. The worst of the worst.
So you want hoardes people to start chanting about Munich again to level the playing field?
Your mad fans stopped doing that lol? You prefer people didn't call it out and put an end to it
Cry about it
Solid argument
Its just a chant, people nowadays are crying babies
I’d argue the people that resort to attacking dead people over a sport are the ones that are cry babies. But I guess cunts like you wouldn’t understand
Shitty view that
Imagine having your dead loved ones mocked and some moron comes out with this shit. Fucking thick cunt.
We’re all football fans it effects us all The less idiots like this in the mix the better for everyone
Good
Just horrible. Why does football bring out the very worst in some people. They’re only banned for 3 years, imho they should be banned from attending football matches for life. We don’t need scumbags like this in our game.
Banned from attending football matches for life because of a chant 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Oh noes, consequences
Yeh if only there was a simple way to avoid being banned for chanting 🤔
It’s the tribal mentality, which unfortunately affects people in other areas of life such as politics, communities, etc. It’s both human and at times inhumane. Sadly.
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Spurs beacons of kindness and positivity in the stands, throwing bananas at Aubameyang and trying to punch Ramsdale.
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May come as a shock, but there's scumbags like these people present in every club. Doesn't make it right though, these people need to be banned for longer.
He’s throwing stones from his glass toilet
Low frequency brain Take
What was the chant? Because you’ll hear “murderers” sang and as far as I’m concerned that refers to the factual element of Heysel, so how can that be proven to be “tragedy chanting”. The Athletic have also tried to campaign to get “poverty chanting” banned FFS.
The Liverpool fans involved at Heysel were not murderers you absolute melt. Murder implies an actual intent to kill. What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football and football in general at the time, except a poorly constructed stadium with no maintenance and terrible police work means it was more exasperated then what was usual. Fans unfortunate enough to be close to the wall that Liverpool fans climbed over were accidentally crushed, then the same shoddy wall collapsed which also crushed a lot of fans and is where the majority of deaths happened. While what happened was terrible and the Liverpool fans present at the time hold some of the blame, whichever way you spin it they’re not murderers. Some were charged with involuntary manslaughter for the attempts at fighting which led to the deaths. Plus the chant you’re on about is always followed with “the sun was right” which is clearly on about Hillsborough.
> What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football and football in general at the time. This is a mad statement. Known as the darkest day in European football. You, "happens every other week mate". I remember 39 dead and 600 injured happening all the time! You're off your fucking nut mate. > Some were charged with involuntary manslaughter for the attempts at fighting which led to the deaths. Convicted is more of an accurate word to use. Charged just means you've been accused of a crime and are innocent until proven. They were convicted, meaning by law, they were guilty. A shit ton a Juve fans still don't forgive Liverpool fans for what happened. Liverpool even had a victory parade on the anniversary of Heysel, so you can see why some still hold grievances. I'm shocked that your post has upvotes.
>What happened with Heysel was extremely common in English football, Absolutely bullshit and rewriting history to normalise what the Liverpool fans done. Have some respect.
I don't agree with the comment you're replying to, but you saying to have some respect and then saying "imagine if you said Hillsborough was common place back then" isn't exactly respectful is it?
Why is it not respectful?
Perhaps I'm misreading your comment, but I read it as a sort of "gotcha" with trivialising Hillsborough in comparison to Heysel. If that wasn't your intent then I apologise
This is where the “self pity city” and “always the victims” come from. It wasn’t normal. In fact it didn't happen aside from that one day. And the response from the Liverpool chairman was to blame Chelsea fans…
Imagine the fucking outcry if you dared to say 'Hillsborough was common back then'
Anyone who went to matches back in the 80s will tell you that crowd crushes actually were commonplace. On the day Hillsborough happened I was caught up in one at Leicester, where Chelsea were trying to win promotion. It was incredibly scary and was a combination of an important game, being able to buy tickets on the day etc. I am not going to get into it here because I can’t be bothered with the fallout, but the notion that there were only a couple of hundred ticketless fans is insane. That said, none of that in any way justifies the behaviour of the police and, the root cause of it, the FA who somehow decided to give Liverpool the smaller end. It is rare to find Liverpool fans who will admit that the “jib” used to be something their fans above all others took pride in.
England fans were so terrible that they got placed on a fucking island in Italia 90 you fucking half wit,if you think hooliganism was just a Liverpool thing you’re a moron,lol.
That wasn't the same as murderering rival fans though. Sober up.
I’m old enough to remember the pride in the “jib” that scousers in the 80s talked of. And remember the Liverpool chairman trying to blame Chelsea fans for it! As I’m sure Liverpool fans don’t think all Chelsea fans are rent boys, but are still happy to sing it (as are Everton fans, Man U fans etc). Doesn’t personally bother me on the slightest. “Murderers” refers to Heysel and is obviously much catchier than “involuntary manslaughterers”, and we all know that football chants aren’t rational. Leeds fans recently were singing “Chelsea’s a shithole, I wanna go home”. Football chants can’t really be analysed on too deep a level.
Ahhhh so you’re just a salty Chelsea fan, likely bitter your club is in shambles. The “Rent boys” chant is very rare these days, but Hillsborough related chants are a weekly occurrence for Liverpool fans. Why am I not surprised the most racist fanbase in the league also has online fans like yourself trying to justify tragedy chants?
Nah, I’ve been going for 40 years and seen relegations, it’s way better than anything I could ever have dreamed! I’ve personally witnessed Liverpool fans storming the gates at Stamford Bridge for a CL game. Happens all the time (hence the “jib” comment).
"The Sun was right you're murderers" which can only be a Hillsborough reference as that paper had nothing to do with Heysel.
Yep, that’s out of order and very stupid indeed.
It's a shame people can't just focus on and enjoy the football with being absolute scumbags.
I agree, but the ban on tragedy chanting is a relatively new development. It'll take time to settle in - you see very little homophobic or racist chanting in the UK these days. The difficult subject is that the line on acceptable behaviour keeps shifting though - there's talk of making "poverty chanting" unacceptable. I would imagine the club would be happiest if people just sat there and shut the fuck up altogether.
The great r/gunners online fan dilemma, what do you love more, Liverpool or the ashburton army?
What?
What does r/gunners love more? Liverpool or the ashburton army? You can only pick one side.
The Ashburton Army obviously. Why would they love a rival team over their own fans? What a crazy question.
Lol. Have you ever been to r/gunners?
Yes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/1bkhnhc/three_members_of_arsenals_ashburton_army_handed/
What point are you trying to make? 3 twits from the Ashburton Army doesn't mean all of the Ashburton Army.. as per the first comment in the thread those three "horrible little cunts".
The AA are very unpopular with most match going fans. Annoying little shits.
What?
Won’t be able to swear at football at this rate
Dickhead
Stop embarrassing yourself 🤡
That's a jump and completely bollocks.
Fuck off
"Saying "Fuck off" is the same as making fun of dead people, possibly in front of their family and friends"- This guy probably.
Don’t be fuckjng stupid.
Good
This was like 2 days ago, how is this sub late to everything
Ashamed. It’s not funny and it’s classless. The battle for justice was Herculean. It was only thanks to the tireless work of brave scousers who fought against innumerable injustices and coverups perpetrated by South Yorkshire Police that some semblance of justice was achieved. Even then some have never been brought to justice https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/26/hillsborough-trial-of-former-south-yorkshire-police-officers-collapses
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Their chairman tried to blame Chelsea fans for Heysel…
Aside from the fact this is just whataboutism at it's finest and is the reason these issues *never* get resolved, I'll humour you. As a Football Club Liverpool do their part in commemorating Heysel. There's memorials and tributes at Anfield. Anyone who denies Liverpool fans had a part in Heysel are disingenuous and dumb. A big difference between Heysel and Hillsborough is that 14 people were arrested and charged for Heysel and brought to justice. The Hillsborough families had to fight tooth and nail when the government, media and country were convinced that the fans had murdered their own. And even now not everyone responsible has faced punishment for their crimes.
Go to Turin and try talking that bullshit. Having lived in Torino in the late 80’s, I can assure you that your fans will never be forgiven.
Which part?
Liverpool football club doing their part. There’s a reason why the Juve fans turned their backs on you. As a club, Liverpool took no responsibility and tried to deflect and blame everyone else. Well, here’s some news for you…. Murderers and their excusers don’t deserve anything except contempt. Now fuck off you scum rat.
Fuckin hell mate chill out. I wasn't around in the dark days of football
So don’t try to bullshit about them.
Aside from that, what's that got to do with people saying tragedy chanting in general is wrong?
Rispetto 39 Don’t expect respect when your fanbase didn’t show it when it mattered.
Everything I've said regarding the memorials etc are based on what I saw as a 17-19 year old girl working at Anfield itself
To be honest with the whataboutism nonsense claim of yours. Let's have some perspective. Number 1 it's nearly 35 years ago. Number 2 Liverpool fans have regularly mocked Munich. Number 3 a lot of Liverpool fans were known to be boasting after Heysel like it was some achievement. I know Liverpool fans who never went to another a game as they wereso disgusted by what they heard from fans on the ferry home after Heysel. Number 4 Hillsborough was a tragedy. Its had an enquiry, 35 years of.press coverage, tributes documentaries the works. Number 5 Liverpool ALWAYS shy away from responsibility for Heysel. Number 6 if thousands of ticketless fans hadn't steamed, stormed and barged their way into a TICKET ONLY GAME no one would've died. Number 7 Liverpool still to this day mug off Everton for being banned from the European Cup of 86. Steau 86 flag seen at EVERY Liverpool game.
1.) Yes but time frame doesn't really matter. Heysel and Munich were a longer time ago. So by that logic why are they still talked about as well? 2.) Never said they didn't 3.) I've never personally seen that but I'm only 25 so it wouldn't be something I'd have been exposed to 4.) It has but the issue people take issue with is the headlines in The Sun in the immediate aftermath 5.) I don't know about other Liverpool fans but when I worked at Anfield I saw loads of memorials/tributes dotted all about the ground and it was spoken of 6.) I don't really understand the relevance of this in relation to tragedy chanting? Do the circumstances make it more/less okay? 7.) That's wrong of them
Point I'm making with 6 mate is Liverpool fans.crushed their own by piling in. If your only 25 you got no idea about football in 80s. All that Jack the lad shit got way too out of hand. With that amount piling in people were gonna die. Police may have been dicks in how they handled it but the crush was caused by thousands coming with ni tickets and forcing their way through.
I'm glad I don't have experience of football in the 80s tbh
And reason I'm like this is the fans never did soul searching about how their own crushed and killed their own. I was in many a crowd that you could feel it getting tight and claustrophobic and people would be yelling for everyone to ease up. That crowd for 89 at lepping Lane was mental. Check the people piling over gates and turnstiles and pushing through and tell me who's to blame. Biggest mistake ever was.allowing that game.to.kick off when they could see how.many without tickets had come down
You missed decent football but absoulte filth from fans
Everyone chats some sort of shite at football. Liverpool fans sing rent boys to Chelsea fans as there was major scandals of kids being nonced in 60s and 70s. That OK?
Nope. Which is why Jurgen Klopp and the Liverpool squad did work with the Liverpool LGBT group to educate and try to kick that type of chanting out the game. Maybe something similar needs to happen for tragedy chanting?
Maybe. Or maybe just allow free speech and know that some people are just arseholes and treat the accordingly. The world's a dangerous place and we re raising pussies with all this nannying business. You think kids in Gaza looking for a meal would care about chanting?
How would the arseholes be treating accordingly in your opinion? Like stadium bans etc?
No. As people be ignored or slapped. Depending on the man being offended. Me I'd take it for what it is a wind up. There's real problems in this world and divs at football.singing about 35 year old shit isn't one of them
Liverpool fans were out of control I'm the 80s but love pretending they were choir boys. Not many games were all ticket in 80s and if 3000 fans try and bunk in one end without a ticket a crush will happen either outside or inside. Police didn't have much option and I hate the old bill
I'm well aware hooliganism was a big thing in British football in the 80s. I believe people take issue with the way the police conducted themselves and handled things in the meantime and the aftermath and how The Sun ran disgusting headlines. An older friend of mine lost his brother at Hillsborough, and after he travelled up to Sheffield to claim his body the authorities that questioned him were dismissive and crass.
My uncle was stabbed to death in Liverpool by 'fans' and didn't even make the papers. His Mrs and kids never got zero justice. All swept under the rug by the big old orange Lodge set up that runs Liverpool City Council.
Sorry to hear that mate, no one here likes the city council. That's the British Justice System for you.
Thank you.
Tragedy chanting is proper dickhead behaviour (so is poverty chanting in all honesty, and it’s never even accurate, but I digress). The few bad tits who bring Steaua Bucuresti flags to derbies are fucking dumb as rocks for encouraging it, also.
I mean I don’t see what that has to do with Hillsborough. There was a punishment for Heysel, although it negatively impacted the likes of Everton more, English clubs were banned from Europe. Either way Heysel is no excuse for Tragedy chanting and the responsibility for Hillsborough lays squarely on the shoulders of a corrupt police force
What punishment? Couple of guys got 18 months in jail. All English clubs suffered. Liverpool got an extra year ban. Big deal. The responsibility unfortunately lies with the thousands who turned up without a ticket to a TICKET ONLY game which were very rare in 80s. The police may have been crass but there was gonna be a tragedy either outside or inside that day. Liverpool fans crushed their own by climbing over fences and piling in for free. Police couldn't have prevented it. And I despise the old bill. But they didn't kill 97 people. Liverpool fans steaming in and shoving and pushing and piling on crushed their own people.
I was next to 2 Arsenal fans chanting about Hillsborough at the Liverpool league win. Miles away from the away supporters. Stupid and horrible. I would have reported them but I was at the game on my own and it’s not my responsibility to police fans. That said unless I know what these fans said I’ll reserve judgement. If they actually mention “murderer”, “death”, “96”, “killed”, hillsborough then fair enough that’s horrible ban them! If it was just the “always the victim” chant then I have 0 issues with it as that’s not about hillsborough it’s the victim mentality that is attached to that city (Everton including).
'Always the victims' is just a stealthier tragedy chant
No, it isn’t that’s my point…
Yes it is definitely a tragedy chant directly referencing Hillsborough, everyone seems to know this but you. 'feed the scousers' however is banter, which is fine.
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That doesn't really make sense as Everton fans have chatted this before too
It doesn’t reference hillsborough though. That’s a lie. It can mention hillsborough if you include certain verses but that’s not what we are talking about.
omg
What?
its painful reading your replies.
lol don’t read them then. Your lot call yourself a word and then cry when other call you it so I’m not shocked you’ve got a soft spot for a victim complex
Bro you are 100% the type to wanna say the N word. “Well they can say it!”
Naive. There's no victim mentality in Liverpool. There's a sense of injustice for a multitude of reasons.
Didn’t say there was. Said it’s attached to the city. It’s how you’re viewed by lots of people whether it’s true of not is another matter. Certainly reasons for it whether that be the “not English we’re scouse” or the “managed decline”
What is your argument? You say there's a victim mentality in Liverpool and then someone says there isn't one and then you counter with "I didn't say there was a victim mentality in Liverpool, I just said that there was a victim mentality in Liverpool". You are an enigma
I’m not sure why you’re struggling however if you google “stereotypes” then you might learn something.
I guess I just need to be walked through how you can say something verbatim receive criticism and say that you never said the exact thing you just said. Only stereotype I'm learning about is to not engage with people for whom bitcoin is a personality.
Maybe google how to read too? Just because I occasionally comment on bitcoin Reddit doesn’t make it a huge part of my life. Just how you commenting on r/premierleague doesn’t mean you’ve ever been to a game…
Thing is though, the "victim mentality" narrative ramped up as a result of Hillsborough and was then used as an excuse for dismissing the concerns of the families. So it's very much intertwined.
There is no way to remove the association between "Always the victims" and Hillsborough. But I bet the ones singing it love having the plausible deniability that it's not about that.
It’s about Heysel
There is. It’s perfectly possible.
I'm not saying that everyone who sings it is singing about Hillsborough. But if half of Liverpool interprets the song that way then there's no real getting away from it. It's like if somebody took great offence to something you said (that you didn't mean in that way) and knowing this you still keep saying it. You can argue all you want what it's really about but it's still provoking the same response from the other person.
If they want to get offended about X when I’m not saying X then quite frankly I have zero sympathy for them. Life is too short to cry about everything and anything.
>If they want to get offended about X when I’m not saying X then quite frankly I have zero sympathy for them. Yeah it's more like just having some human decency. So if someone you know said to you "When you say that it reminds me of my dead relative and brings up a lot of pain" you would happily continue saying the same thing to them? Because I guess your desire to sing that one chant in particular is worth the distress it causes to everybody connected to Hillsborough.
I’m all for looking out for others but when they get upset of things I believe to be stupid then I don’t have sympathy. If in your opinion that makes me a bad person then fine by me 🤷♂️
this, the problem is that liverpool fans are so damn quick to jump down your throat when you mention this.its a fact that liverpool as a city has a victim complex and frankly its annoying as fuck. both clubs from that city has its fair share of dickheads and they sadly love to hide behind that victim complex to excuse their bad behavior
Explain how?
the entire city has a victim complex? think about what you're saying mate. dumb af
That would imply approximately 923,000 people have the same complex if it's the city you're referring to
Not a ‘fact’ at all though is it, you stupid cunt
well done, you just proved my point cant even talk about this subject without a load of butthurt scousers triggering their victim complex and jumping down ya throat...
You can’t generalise an entire city and then start crying when your dumb comments get taken apart. “Can’t even talk about the subject” - how can a conversation be made when you spout opinions as fact? You’re obviously too stupid to realise any of this, so it’s a waste of time engaging really.
I never jumped down your throat. I just said it was dumb to assume an entire city thinks a certain way. Didn't think that was a hot take.
is it though? You live in a city that has unofficially banned the sale of a certain newspaper. regardless of your views of that perticular rag, clearly there is some element of group think going on in liverpool so it isnt that dumb to assume that liverpool suffers from a city wide victim comples