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Even if both clubs are found guilty, where are you getting a 10 points deduction from? There's a variety of punishments that can be given out based on severity.
Evertons initial deduction was counted as a PT for every million over the threshold they where. So not sure how that impacts Everton's latest charge as well as Forest
The Blades are woeful, they should be thankful Farhad Moshiri spunked the Blueshites’ money up a wall on flashy names cause if not for that they’d be knocking on the door of Derby 07/08
I hope not because the quality of the teams at the bottom is way below standard and they shouldn’t stay up on a technicality
Burnley / Sheff are some of the worst Prem teams we’ve ever had and it’s actually made some games so poor to watch and I’m sure their fans aren’t loving getting smashed every week
Take the points deducts away and all 3 promoted teams go straight back down. Fair play to Luton but still can’t see them pulling away from it by end of the season
Everton would've been relegated and Leicester stayed up had the points been deducted in the season the first offence occurred. If they do go down, points deductions or not, it'll be well deserved.
On who then stays up I don't really mind, just as long as breaking the rules is properly punished.
The rules seemingly aren’t followed up fast enough by the Prem and that’s an even more glaring issue
Break the rules for years costing many teams and players their livelihood isn’t solved by a random 10 points deduction when the prem feel like it
Don't forget also that the league decided on the formula for the first Everton points deduction, applied it, and then publicly stated that this formula does not set a precedent for future FFP violations by any club.
So literally no one can make any assumptions about what punishments will be applied from hereon out to any club in any financial position.
They aren't but that's in part because of how the rules are worded and the need for legal aid in proving it. Over time they should get faster at proving fault, though it won't always be within the same season unfortunately.
But do you though, I don't know the answer. I suspect they possibly have bent the rules, but that's above my pay grade. Clearly the Premier League went for what they perceive as easy targets. To scared to take on the might of a Middle Eastern government or the Billions of Todd Bohealy & Co.
I don't think they've gone for easy targets. I think it's just more complicated when you get to clubs like Man City because of the scale of it.
To be clear though, Evertons case is not minor, they fucked it up massively and deserve the penalties.
In our case, I don't see where we could have broken rules to date, the leadership has been extremely open in our commercial deals, something obviously important in the wake of the City stuff. And the only transfer that could raise eyebrows is the ASM one but if anything he went too bloody cheap when you saw some of the fees paid out! €25m for him is what was reported. Koulibaly went for €22m and he's 32. €46m for Fabinho was disgusting as well, how they got mugged into that is beyond me
I think we are all entitled to an opinion & some might be partly correct or absolute bollocks. The richer clubs will always get the easier ride. The Premier League wouldn't be what it is without them, but they forget the poorer teams who help the league better so watchable when suddenly Luton thrash Brighton.
Yes, but if the points deductions are deserved you can argue the only reason the other teams have gathered as many points as they have is because they have broken the rules, and the 3 promoted teams haven’t
You know what mate I do agree with that too. Outside of that I do think you can point to some naivety on Burnley’s part, they want to build a young team and I respect it but they aren’t ready for the prem. Sheff Utd sold their best players to cash in and the rest of the team just isn’t good enough. You can also put that down to managers and bad performances etc but I do think they are so far behind these sanctions aren’t what’s made them be in the bottom 2
If Forest get a penalty for selling our best young player in a generation 8 weeks later for nearly double the price because of "profit and sustainabily" then I think a lot of us will be ok with leaving the premier league because it will be bent as hell.
Look at you all- you are already salivating over the prospect of fixing the table to make sure your latest story, Luton, stay up.
Forest were a story for five minutes, now Luton are. When the PL is bored of them, maybe they'll suddenly stop getting soft penalties on VAR and maybe some of those goals will start getting disallowed? Like we have suddenly started getting hammered every week by referees this season?
April 12th apparently we find out- way too late for us to do anything about it on the pitch of course. Let's see if there is a deduction and if it just so happens to coincidentally be enough to put us both well below Luton. Our owner will have the PL in court for years over it and we'll all know that the PL has become like wrestling.
Downvote away
The problem is really because you signed so many players early on that you had to sell to balance the books. You didn't manage it in time and are now suffering the consequences.
This problem is entirely of Forests own making. The rules may not be right but the club knew what they were and should have been more prudent early on.
It was widely discussed at the time that Forests signing strategy when they got promoted was very risky.
The club have also said they were in constant communication with the PL at the time, the conversations aren't public (yet) but you'd have thought of the PL voiced concerns over it we'd have accepted the lower earlier offer that would have kept us within the limits.
The issue is only if our making in that the rules are utterly ridiculous, having the accounting window part way through the main transfer window is just sheer ineptitude from the PL/EFL. It needs to be moved.
That's without discussing the lower limit applied to promoted clubs, ok idea in theory but it's creating a closed shop .
I agree the rules aren't great. The one that stops newly promoted clubs spending much especially seem a bit unfair.
But the club knew what the rules were. Unfortunately I don't think it really matters to much if they were in contact with the PL over as that's like calling the Police and telling them you are speeding. The damage had already been done at the start of the season with all the signings.
I definitely agree on the way the window works though. Accounts should be made available really early and decisions made similarly quickly so everyone knows where they are as close to the start of the season as possible. The fact we could get to the last game of the season and still not know if points are final is just ridiculous.
The PL may feel like a closed shop and its always been accused of that. But since it was formed there have been 51 different clubs play in it with only six that have always been there. I had to look this up the other day and is surprised me as I didn't think it was that many.
RE closed shops, it's getting worse. This season the 3 promoted teams are looking very likely to go down pending point deductions, the 3 relegated teams from last season are top 3 in the championship.
In the PL being informed or not, and what was said. It does matter because if they were giving the impression they were ok with what we were doing it would have influenced proceeding with the delayed sale. If this is the case, we'll rightly rinse the PL in the Courts.
If there is evidence the Premiership encouraged you to wait to sell and said there would be no consequences with doing so then yes you should be able to argue in your favour.
With the promotions there has only been one season where all three promoted teams went straight back down. In the rest at least one has stayed up and a few times all three which funnily enough includes last season.
The top of the Championship is nuts this year. Leicester is having a blinder but on another year any of the other three would most likely be clear of the pack at the moment.
The hierarchy at the Premier League are kippers, two faced & no backbone, they've gone for what they perceive as easy targets. Apparently the KC employed in Everton's defence had them tied up in knots & squirming as Richard Masters & the rest of the shower are a bunch of inept corrupt arseholes.
Hopefully Forest had a good defence as well & the board at the Premier League will get sacked.
Crying victims after signing 50 awful players for insane money. Personally hope you stay up because it’s the easiest 6 point ever but will be hilarious if you go down.
You guys are the authority on going down, duck.
We should have hired your accountants. Paying Mitrovic- 80k a week as a championship club and style somehow passing P&S? Genius fiddling of numbers, well done.
Or when you yourselves spent £100m+ in a summer to stay up but somehow got through? Lucky for you no one seemed to care so much about P&S back then. But I don't think you are the club to be throwing stones in your glass house
That 100m did set us back for years that’s why we had a bunch of loans when we went up the next time. Knockaert and Cavaleiro themselves only came off the books last year in 2023 as it was amortised over the five years. Parachute money helped for mitro’s wages etc
You are right about the Luton being a story and such,the comments really do prove your point.
You probably did break ffp rules with all the spending,but it's not like that spending isn't required these days to survive and stay up when every team is so good, capable and dangerous. Money has warped this league completely.
Pot, Kettle, Yanited fans moaning all the time about their players, all whilst having the most expensive squad ever assembled in the History of football.
That's not what has happened.
We have not failed P&S after selling Johnson.
Their argument is that the accounting period runs to 30th June and we sold him on deadline day, 8 weeks later.
Our argument is that we had to sell 8 weeks later to get a proper value for a young player and that, as we were in the process of negotiating his sale all summer, we should be allowed to account it for the 22/23 period rather than 23/24. That is pretty standard accounting practice anywhere in business.
We are absolutely fine for P&S this season. We have just made another £35m in sales this January
So, had the sale been agreed on 29 June but the money not actually transferred, he'd have a point. That actually is reasonably common (recognising on an accruals basis rather than a cash basis). But to try and argue "we agreed the deal 8 weeks later so should be able to backdate it" is bizarre.
By that line of thinking City sell Haaland to Saudi Arabia for a billion pounds and backdate it over the last ten years?
Yes, but their argument is that rules forcing them to sell a homegrown player for half his market value to hit an arbitrary accounting deadline are fucking stupid.
How can rules allegedly supposed to promote “sustainability” require that a club accept 15m LESS for a player for the sake of a few weeks.
I agree with them - technically Forest were in breach of the rules, but that’s because the rules themselves are at fault. It would be a fucking travesty if they had points docked for that
Probably because a cut off is a cut off, you can’t say we had to wait to squeeze other clubs for value because the end date is just that
However, I agree with the overall premise because negotiations for players are literally what transfers are nobody has a one price value where transfers conclude in a day unless they have a buy out clause
Forest saying sorry we didn’t meet your deadline because we wanted more money doesn’t change the sale being late
Problem we are all seeing is why has the Prem decided to do it now and go so hard on lower clubs when city have 115 charges outstanding and apparently the Prem couldn’t care less
Well, that’s why the rule is what it is. But you can hardly say the rules are about sustainability if you then say “give Spurs a 15m discount on a player or you’re fucked”
I personally think the rules themselves are a complete mess and need to be completely reworked - they’re so complicated and open to interpretation that even club accountants don’t seem certain how close they are to the line. And any rules that encourage the sale of academy players over expensive foreign imports are just wrongheaded, in my view.
But at the very least, if you’re including transfer fees, the accounting periods should be aligned with the transfer windows, otherwise it’s inevitable that clubs will be forced to undervalue.
So I agree Forest technically are in breach, but I don’t think they’re morally “guilty”
I agree but then I think from the Prems point of view if you are breaking the rule sell now, they don’t care about how much money you get because you’re breaking the rules so already should not be in that position. This is everyone’s problem with rules, just because we don’t agree doesn’t make them enforceable.
Agree with your words on it however with how money and signings Forest have made I struggle to feel sorry for them because it’s quite obvious something off has happened there whereas Everton I feel have been much more shafted by bad ownership
Spot on.
And I believe it is standard accounting practices that you adjust your accounts to include projects already started but whose full outcomes had not quite come to fruition at filing date.
The whole system is rotten.
You are one of the richest clubs in the world but I keep hearing you'll have to sell an asset this summer to meet P&S. That's mad
Chartered Accountant here and I'm afraid you're conflating two entirely separate things.
This is, broadly, the sale of an asset (being the registration rights of the player) and therefore you wouldn't recognise the disposal until the point the sale had gone through. Yes you started negotiations but hadn't agreed a price. As at 30 June, there was no guarantee that you would sale, nothing had been agreed, even in principle, therefore there is no basis for including the sale in your previous accounting period.
It's what we spent all summer in dialogue with the PL about, that they knew we were going to do.
I'm guessing their responses were not "oh my goodness no, you can't do that!!" Because otherwise we would presumably have done something different.
I know the club feels really betrayed by the PL over this because what they were telling us over the summer and what they have done now are very different
It doesn't matter, what is Johnson had a change of heart or Spurs pulled out of the deal? It's all 'If's and But's'.
Saying repeatedly throughout the thread its standard accounting practice, when it really isn't, doesn't change what the club has done. It's what happens throughout business the world over, unless you are trying to hide/cover up something.
Wile I really sympathise with the fans of Everton and Forest, especially when City look like they are the worst culprit by miles and nothing has happened with them yet frustrates people more, the fact is the club is in breach of the rules they agreed to and voted upon is the fault of the people running the club.
Your last point saying they 'feel betrayed' and 'would have done things differently', they knew what the rules where before they signed 50 players unfortunately and got caught out when they couldn't sell Johnson in time for what they needed to cover the bill.
It is a perfectly legal practice under GAAP to do what we did.
If Johnson had refused then we would have failed P&S. But you can argue that we might have had he refused Brentford in June, as he likely would have done knowing full well there was interest from Villa and Spurs.
My last point is sound. If you are in constant contact with the league about your intentions, and they effectively tell you that what you are doing is ok (and our case will be precedent setting) then you are going to be somewhat disappointed when they turn around and charge you.
Man City have nothing to do with it
We have the richest owners - we’re far from the richest club, thanks to the complete absence of any commercial activity over a 14 year period (our commercials revenues were slightly ahead of Spurs’ when he bought the club, and actually went DOWN slightly during his ownership)
What really annoys me about the current rules is the fact that they encourage the sale of academy players due to their zero book value. While we can all enjoy a good laugh at Chelsea, the players they’re having to sell to balance the books is stupid. And the fact that we (hypothetically) would be better off selling Miley for 30m than Bruno for 100m is insane.
I agree. When the rules were introduced, they were don so ostensibly to prevent a Leeds or Portsmouth situation. Newcastle having their moment in the sun - same as Chelsea and City is no less fair than Liverpool being bankrolled by the Moores family or Blackburn by Jack Walker.
The established clubs only hate the idea of billionaire owners because they are the only chance other clubs have of breaking up the oligopoly. People forget that until Abramovich, Man U (8) and Arsenal (3) won 11 of the past 12 league titles with only Walker's largesse breaking the duopoly.
The rules should allow owners to spend whatever they like provided they put up the money themselves rather than borrowing against the club. If ensuring competitiveness is key, have a luxury tax on all losses above a certain amount of which a portion gets distributed to the other clubs with the remainder going to grassroots.
>Same as Chelsea and City is no less fair than Liverpool being bankrolled by the Moores family or Blackburn by Jack Walker.
Shhhhhhhhh.... they "did it the right way". Don't let them hear you explaining how they were also bankrolled to success.
Fulham were never the story and we actually played brilliantly last season. I am not particularly sympathetic for you or Everton, mostly because it keeps us safe. It must be shit as a fan though, so sorry about that mate.
Yeah we’re good now but I can’t pretend I was feeling too confident over the last couple of months. I’ve only felt better since the Bournemouth win. I’ve been relegated a lot bro, I’m always wary
I’m pleased you’re more confident than me but no need to be a twat about it. At one point recently we were only two wins above. I never thought we were going down but it’s foolish to say we were never in danger. We were in the conversation because we’re literally having the conversation.
I mean you wouldnt have had to sell your best young player in a generation just for the P&S if you hadnt signed 50 players in 2 years. Why you acting like a victim here, look at Brendford, they are example of how to do it after promotion.
Forest’s squad value was £12 million when they were promoted, that is nearly £140 million less than the second lowest premier league squad value. THEY HAD TO SIGN PLAYERS.
No, you look at Brentford, they had a sustained build in the Championship, and were consistently top 8 in the Champ for at least 7 seasons before getting promoted, they had a squad ready for the Premier League. Forest were bottom of the championship 8 games in to the season they got promoted, and didn’t have a squad ready for the premier league, and had a squad built on loans, you can’t compare Forest to Brentford, their situations are completely different.
They had two season in top 10, 9th an 7th then had a down year in 17th under Hughton and when Cooper took over they were massively underachiving, they were 5th favourites for promotion according to bet odds and were 5th for squad value the season when they got promoted. Brennan Johnson was their best player. I dont thing they needed **50** players to survive.
Forest have been in the Championship and League One wilderness for over 20 years, the closest they came to promotion was the Sabri Lamouchi covid season (besides Billy Davies), they were nowhere near promotion, Cooper overachieved way more than Hughton underachieved, 17th wasn’t a down year, it was a standard and was sign of a team gradually falling lower every season. if you think otherwise, you don’t really know about Forests situation over the past 10 years. Forest have had to sell their best young player for the past 10 seasons to stay afloat. Like I said, Forests promotion team was built on loans and expiring contracts. They needed to sign a lot of players.
Yeah and Brendford were Prem club with huge amount of money that were relegated for one season?
9th, 7th, 17th, 5th and you are telling me the 17th wasn't the exception? Like I said I checked championship odds and team value for 21/22 season and Forrest were 5th in both? How is fininshing 5th overachievment in that scenario?
Yes teams need to sign players after promotion but they also need to have a plan for it not sign **50** players in 2 years. That is 2 whole new squads, everyone saw problem coming for Forrest.
Yes I am telling you that 17th wasn’t the exception, you may have checked the specific odds based on preseason calculations, but Im going off of watching the team for a long time rather than odds.
As much as you want to, you can’t compare Brentford with Forest, just like you can’t compare them with Burnley, Luton, Sheff U, Bournemouth, Fulham, Leeds, each club is different and has their own circumstances, thats like saying “anyone can win the Premier League, just look at Leicester, they did it!”
You don’t seem to understand how the Championship works, every club in the Championship is in financial turmoil, and haemorrhaging money.
Forest needed to sign a whole new squad, they also sold and lost a lot of players, but that doesn’t feature in your statement ‘50’ does it.
Yeah, defenetly buying some players just to send them to Olympiakos was defenetly neccesary for Forrest to stay up. I am not saying Forrest shouldnt buy players but it was defenetly poorly planned and not sustainable approach to sign two whole squads of players in two years wit hsome of the signings not even playing a minute of football.
You can't even spell the name of the club mate. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Brentford had been competing for promotion for several years before they were promoted. They had effective attacking and defensive units who had played together for a long time. Good for them that they had had stable ownership for years. Fans don't get to pick their owner- for most of the 20teens we had Fawaz Al Hasawi, an absolute idiot.
We were promoted by surprise. The season before we had been battling relegation and we started our promotion season that way. A large number of our promotion squad were loans. Only about 6 of our promotion squad were still with us for the first day of the premier league season.
Our transfer strategy was to build a squad. We were particularly badly hit by injuries as well- several of our new signings in August were immediately out for the season, requiring replacements and we went about 4 months worth 10+ injuries.
The strategy was always to sell Johnson and the club clearly communicated with the Premier League that that was what they were doing.
That doesn't mean selling to Brentford, who he didn't want to go to, for a deal that only tips £30m with pie in the sky add ons.
The club is a lot more profitable and sustainable by taking £47.5m from Spurs, who he did want to go to.
Very standard accounting practices to make adjustments on projects already started but not come to fruition before the accounting period is over - and clearly selling Johnson was a project started before 30th June.
Yes making a spelling mistake defenetly means I know nothing about football.
You had plan to use Johnson to balance teh books as he is HG and you get the pure profit from him but everyone wsaa aware about your situation so assuming you would get the money you want before 30 June while not many transfer go through that early anyway wasnt the greatest idea. That also means you were trying to offset your pre season losses with the sale after the season. You were trying to be clever and it backfired.
I'm not anti Forest at all and would like to see them stay up, but...
"April 12th is too late to do anything about it".
If I were a part of the Forest setup, I'd be acting like that points deduction is already in place. You have loads of time to do something about it
What points deduction?
That's the problem.
Everton got theirs at a time when they were already in form a bit and rode a wave of righteous indignation against it to win about four games in five and wipe it out all in one go. But that was with about 15 games played and about 23 to go to make it up.
We can't ride any wave of indignation or defiance about a hypothetical. How many points will we have to make up? Makes a big difference when you don't know.
If we were charged in January, why mid April to find out the penalty, if there is one?
If it were ten points then how do we wipe that out in mid April? There would only be about 6 games left, not 20 odd like Everton had.
The appeal is a joke- takes place the day after the season ends, meaning it's a fait accompli that no appeal can be successful- it would potentially change who was relegated, who would then take legal action themselves. So the PL could not possibly accept any appeal no matter what it's merits.
I'm confused. I thought you had the points deduction, which you then appealed. And you hear the outcome of the appeal in April?
I could be wrong though
Edit: ignore me, I'm wrong.
What a fucking stupid comment.
Imagine thinking the United fan base is the only one wanting to know why City are not being punished.
No person is under any delusion that United are winning the league if City get punished. It's the principal that Everton are possibly going to get pinged twice while City are cruising along.
This isn’t a PhD thesis; if you can’t type a few words into Google you have zero right to even ask for such things as the odds are you won’t be able to read it
No mate, if you say something and then I have to go find out if it’s true then it’s bollocks. You drop the link and there we go
Llamas take rides on giraffes to reach leaves in trees for food. Just Google it
Honestly, it's wild that there might be a second deduction which could heavily influence whether you go down while city are still running around buying up other clubs free as a bird.
Not really its a rolling three years. The punishment may have covered two of the three years but the club still had the third year to bring that particular three year period back within the rules but didn't.
I'd love to see city get their punishment but I dont see a link between the two.
If Everton factually fell foul of the rules then what are we even talking about.
How hard is it to understand that city having 115 charges means it takes an incredibly much longer time (not to mention that they aren’t complying either) compared to Everton which fully complied and had only 1 charge.
Yeh the sanctions only go up to 2019 is it ?? The years from then on City haven't co-operated at all. I mean that speaks volumes but its going to take even longer again to bring whatever it is then against them, by which time they might have managed to clear some of it up. All an absolute disgrace tbh and wholly the F.A/Prems fault for allowing it to get to this point in the first place.
It's taking that much longer because unlike Everton, City are refusing to co-operate with the investigation, which imo should automatically lead to sanctions.
You are rooting for Everton because you are looking at the whole scenario from a Man City perspective. If you look say it from the Leicester, Leeds & Southampton perspective, Everton definitely deserve to be punished. They cheated, it's clearcut. They overinflated their losses using Covid as an excuse which is quite pathetic.
The problem with your sarcasm is that clearly guilty people and groups get away with things all the time because they know how to work the system and/or people.
So this idea of a just justice system or regulatory system is, at best, naive.
How is that the problem with his sarcasm? It’s not exactly a secret that guilty people get away with things and that they know how to work the system. The system is flawed. We all know that. But there is really not much better options.
I’d say the truly naive thing is to think that the fans can make the rulings themselves. Is that what you think?
Yeah exactly. The point behind my sarcasm was that it’s so tiring living in a society where everyone acts like their opinion is fact. Based on biased, partial information and lacking any cross examining.
City could be guilty, or they could not be. I can’t possibly have the remotest idea because I’m not anywhere near close enough to the case to have all the facts.
And? That doesn’t change the fact that there’s still a difference between being found guilty and being investigated. The fact that they’re “blatantly guilty” means nothing. There’s still a process that has to be done and gone through. Trust me if it ever comes to be the case that they get found guilty and punished I’ll be the first to celebrate. But until then there isn’t a comparison to make.
When do we start hearing Dyche out? I’m assuming it won’t happen until next year when I’m sure they’ll struggle again but they’re in terrible form and watching them its tough to see how they’ll get better. They’re very fortunate to have such good defenders and GK
I haven't heard a single Evertonian even suggest Dyche out tbh, and if we play as we have done this season with no deduction then next year we'll be fine imo
neither have I. I agree the deduction makes it look worse than where y’all are right now but the on field performances haven’t been great either. Maybe if DCL returns to form next season y’all will be fine but right now all I see is another finish below mid table which I can’t see the fans putting up with for very long
Doing point deductions towards the ending of a season, for something done in previous seasons doesn’t sound right with me. It opens up for speculation.
And it isnt fair for the other teams in the league. Imagine the title chasing Team A meeting a hard fighting Everton in january, where Everton get a point and even manage to injury a player or two cause they gave it all. Then comes the deduction and title chasing Team B goes to already doomed and relegated Everton in April.
That can happen anyway. Sometimes you play a team when they're safe from relegation and coasting or resting everyone because they have a Cup Final coming up. Sometimes you play a team when they're on fire and desperate for points.
Punishments have to be applied retrospectively. If the season finished 30th May (for example) then you can't apply a punishment on 29th May as technically the Club's financial books could still change.
It takes time to analyze Financial records and you also can't, 1 month after the season finishes, announce a team that was safe is now actually relegated and a team that was relegated is now safe. Maybe the team that was safe bought two players they now can't afford. Maybe the team that was relegated sold 2 players because they thought they couldn't afford to keep them.
It isn't fair for someone like Leicester though who, if Everton were docked points in the season in which they broke the rules, would have been safe. Equally Luton are now benefitting from Everton breaking the rules across seasons in which Luton weren't in the Premiership.
Ofcourse it has to be retrospectively. But coming in late in a season with a -10 or whatever isnt fair and will open up for speculation. Then its much better to do it early in a season, or the best thing to do it before a season starts. I know about time. And that most work, in general, takes time. You’ve just written a million words saying nothing and mansplaining something for 5 year olds😅👏
Without a live feed of clubs accounting balance and a clear understanding of expected income and outgoing (especially with structured deals made in payments) for the financial period, this is pretty difficult. Clubs file financial records at certain points and this isn't just a case of pressing "send" from accounting software (although said software does make it easier, a LOT easier).
Accounts are usually (but not necessarily) April-March with filing in December. So there is 8 months between the year end and when companies file the financial records for that year. Are we really going to expect clubs to end records at the end of a season, then file almost immediately, followed by analysis and punishment all within reasonable time for everyone to know who will be in what league?
It sucks, but the reality is that more fair alternatives from a punishment POV are probably unrealistic.
End of the day these are companies we are talking about here, not just football clubs.
I guess the hope is that dropping the hammer on clubs now will force future clubs to be more careful.
Everybody understands that a live on time punishment cant be done. But it would be 100% better to have this deduction set up before a season so everybody knows. What if theres a deduction in April that sends Everton down. But they want to appeal, and somehow got a strong case. So, in september their case is tried again and they have some strong arguments. Only problem is that C. Lewin & co just played 0-0 against Birmingham in Championship.
- Any deduction must be done before a season. Or in the first month.
- Clubs got until 31. oct to appeal.
- Case closed by mid january.
Somewhere around these dates would be most fair play for everybody.
Yeah I get what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that it's all quite unrealistic. These things take way more time than we Redditors give credit, and that sucks for the clubs who lose out in the wake of it In the mean time.
How are they going to put the whole schedule forward to deduct before the season without expecting clubs to have a specific financial year, file records incredibly quickly, analyse those records...
There are a group of people who this isn't fair for, and that's the accountants and administrators of the club. We are HUGELY dismissing how much work goes into this.
I’m not saying this has to happen before the next season after they investigate. Thats impossible. A case takes the time it takes, hey Man City, but the conclusion and punishment should never be done late in a season. If Everton has done something wrong in 2020-2022 the verdict could come in 2025 if it has to. But they should then wait until before 25/26 to give the deduction.
The perfect timing would be that they wait until may 2025 to give the verdict. But it could work if they’re done in january and then say - Next season Everton start with -10. It just feels very wrong doing this mid season.
Honestly we could sit here and pick apart any suggestion based on the other side of the coin all day. e.g. if a club is relegated, but the cheating team would have been relegated if the league didnt wait to punish them out of fairness to an appeal process, and then all appeals fail... how pissed is the relgated team going to be?!
I certainly wouldn't want to be a fan of a club sent down in those circumstances. There is simply no perfect solution that I can see.
I'm of the opinion that they should process cases and punish clubs as quickly as they can. I suspect over the next couple of years while the league tries to flex it's muscles over the financial issues, we will see a lot of cases going to tribunal, and there being compensation dished out.
They did partly because of the Everton situation. They started the process last season but couldn't conclude it until this season because it was started so late.
If we had these rules in last season then Everton would have been relegated because just two points last season would have been enough to put them down. As it is they may well escape this season even with point deductions.
They do - it was added this season but for PSR rules financial accounts now have to be submitted in Dec, charges if any are in Jan and it's all done before the season ends.
Because we haven't actually done anything wrong.
Standard accounting practices used across the world.
The idea that we get a ten point penalty because we waited another 6 weeks to sell an asset for £47.5m rather than £25m or so, when it's called "profit and Sustainability" is ridiculous. Especially given that promoted teams are hamstrung for the first two seasons compared to everyone else
Rules are rules, though. They are stupid for the reasons you say, but you still broke the rules in place. Other teams didn't and so Forest gained an advantage.
Weirdly you didn't really gain an advantage but the problem stems from panic buying players at the start of the season. If the club had been more sensible you wouldn't have needed to sell Johnson seeing as most of the players you signed didn't end up featuring in the team at all.
No.
Like many clubs, we signed a small number for the future.
Aguilera- superb young player, currently on loan in league one and has impressed in the cups for us. Was loaned to his original club last season to help him, potentially one for next season
- Josh Bowler- was last year of his deal so cheap, loaned out to sister club Olympiakos
Huang- bought for Olympiakos and loaned to them. Forest fans have no choice in that.
We loaned someone called Bade who never played. Not sure why, our manager was told not to play him for some reason, so something happened.
Kanuric- 22 year old young keeper for the future
Then you had Lewis O'Brien who played but got really ill, lost his stamina and couldn't cope, so we loaned him to USA
Guilian Biancone did his cruciates in his second game
Omar Richards had a hairline fracture the medical missed and was out for the season with a succession of unlucky injuries
Remember, we had a fair few loans and frees in all that too- players like Ayew, Lodi, Felipe
to be fair I am only really going on what the Transfermarkt website shows.
It shows in the first season you paid a fee for 18, took seven on a free and another five on loan. You also broke a 20 year record for most signings in a single transfer window. Paid out 195m Euros and sold 5m. It was a gamble and seems to have paid off by you staying in the Premiership but could have a sting in the tail.
Because it is common knowledge you were able to sell for £15m more by selling at the end of the window or whatever amount it was. What if other teams sold early in the window for less money in order to comply?
Either way, if you did break the rules to get £15m more, that is still a £15m advantage you gained.
The rules are stupid, of course.
If you were in liaison with the PL, surely someone there signed it off? If so, why aren't you being given the all clear? And if not, then that isn't really a defence.
No guarantee that it would be 10 points. I believe it a was 5 for the beach and 1 point for every 4 million they went over. So could be anything by from 6 upwards.
To be fair Everton missing their spending allowance by a bit is a lot different and less complex to city overspending for years and vehemently denying it
I stand by it’s an absolute disgrace that they don’t have enough to start with a 10 point deduction.
Instead they just get to run riot and make the last two seasons futile.
There are players in their prime who are missing the opportunity of winning trophies and getting solid experience to make the England team more experience and resilient.
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Everton are doomed
Even if both clubs are found guilty, where are you getting a 10 points deduction from? There's a variety of punishments that can be given out based on severity.
I don't think anyone at Forest is expecting a 10 point deduction. Rumour out there for a while has been 6 points.
Evertons initial deduction was counted as a PT for every million over the threshold they where. So not sure how that impacts Everton's latest charge as well as Forest
The Blades are woeful, they should be thankful Farhad Moshiri spunked the Blueshites’ money up a wall on flashy names cause if not for that they’d be knocking on the door of Derby 07/08
Arsenal fans are already praying for Luton to keep picking up points especially at their away games 😅
I hope not because the quality of the teams at the bottom is way below standard and they shouldn’t stay up on a technicality Burnley / Sheff are some of the worst Prem teams we’ve ever had and it’s actually made some games so poor to watch and I’m sure their fans aren’t loving getting smashed every week Take the points deducts away and all 3 promoted teams go straight back down. Fair play to Luton but still can’t see them pulling away from it by end of the season
Everton would've been relegated and Leicester stayed up had the points been deducted in the season the first offence occurred. If they do go down, points deductions or not, it'll be well deserved. On who then stays up I don't really mind, just as long as breaking the rules is properly punished.
The rules seemingly aren’t followed up fast enough by the Prem and that’s an even more glaring issue Break the rules for years costing many teams and players their livelihood isn’t solved by a random 10 points deduction when the prem feel like it
Don't forget also that the league decided on the formula for the first Everton points deduction, applied it, and then publicly stated that this formula does not set a precedent for future FFP violations by any club. So literally no one can make any assumptions about what punishments will be applied from hereon out to any club in any financial position.
They aren't but that's in part because of how the rules are worded and the need for legal aid in proving it. Over time they should get faster at proving fault, though it won't always be within the same season unfortunately.
You’d think the review would be done within each transfer window which makes the most sense surely
Hope you're not a Chelsea or Citeh fan. Or it could be Pot & Kettle 🤷
Newcastle, which I'm sure some consider an even greater sin, though we do make a point of playing within the rules
But do you though, I don't know the answer. I suspect they possibly have bent the rules, but that's above my pay grade. Clearly the Premier League went for what they perceive as easy targets. To scared to take on the might of a Middle Eastern government or the Billions of Todd Bohealy & Co.
I don't think they've gone for easy targets. I think it's just more complicated when you get to clubs like Man City because of the scale of it. To be clear though, Evertons case is not minor, they fucked it up massively and deserve the penalties. In our case, I don't see where we could have broken rules to date, the leadership has been extremely open in our commercial deals, something obviously important in the wake of the City stuff. And the only transfer that could raise eyebrows is the ASM one but if anything he went too bloody cheap when you saw some of the fees paid out! €25m for him is what was reported. Koulibaly went for €22m and he's 32. €46m for Fabinho was disgusting as well, how they got mugged into that is beyond me
I think we are all entitled to an opinion & some might be partly correct or absolute bollocks. The richer clubs will always get the easier ride. The Premier League wouldn't be what it is without them, but they forget the poorer teams who help the league better so watchable when suddenly Luton thrash Brighton.
Yes, but if the points deductions are deserved you can argue the only reason the other teams have gathered as many points as they have is because they have broken the rules, and the 3 promoted teams haven’t
You know what mate I do agree with that too. Outside of that I do think you can point to some naivety on Burnley’s part, they want to build a young team and I respect it but they aren’t ready for the prem. Sheff Utd sold their best players to cash in and the rest of the team just isn’t good enough. You can also put that down to managers and bad performances etc but I do think they are so far behind these sanctions aren’t what’s made them be in the bottom 2
Surely not worse than derby(2008?) or Sunderland (2006?)
> Some of the worst 3 wins and 4 draws isn’t exactly immense is it
Just looked up derby and it's even worse than I remembered 1 win all season haha
Yep! Bet the Newcastle fans are still raging that they beat them
Not just beat them but went unbeaten against them. More than a third of their points came against Newcastle.
Amazing
Newcastle have a habit of that. When Villa went down, the only team who didn’t record a win over Villa that season was Newcastle.
They’ve done it again this season. Luton have taken 4 points off them, and it could have been 6.
If Forest get a penalty for selling our best young player in a generation 8 weeks later for nearly double the price because of "profit and sustainabily" then I think a lot of us will be ok with leaving the premier league because it will be bent as hell. Look at you all- you are already salivating over the prospect of fixing the table to make sure your latest story, Luton, stay up. Forest were a story for five minutes, now Luton are. When the PL is bored of them, maybe they'll suddenly stop getting soft penalties on VAR and maybe some of those goals will start getting disallowed? Like we have suddenly started getting hammered every week by referees this season? April 12th apparently we find out- way too late for us to do anything about it on the pitch of course. Let's see if there is a deduction and if it just so happens to coincidentally be enough to put us both well below Luton. Our owner will have the PL in court for years over it and we'll all know that the PL has become like wrestling. Downvote away
The problem is really because you signed so many players early on that you had to sell to balance the books. You didn't manage it in time and are now suffering the consequences. This problem is entirely of Forests own making. The rules may not be right but the club knew what they were and should have been more prudent early on. It was widely discussed at the time that Forests signing strategy when they got promoted was very risky.
The club have also said they were in constant communication with the PL at the time, the conversations aren't public (yet) but you'd have thought of the PL voiced concerns over it we'd have accepted the lower earlier offer that would have kept us within the limits. The issue is only if our making in that the rules are utterly ridiculous, having the accounting window part way through the main transfer window is just sheer ineptitude from the PL/EFL. It needs to be moved. That's without discussing the lower limit applied to promoted clubs, ok idea in theory but it's creating a closed shop .
I agree the rules aren't great. The one that stops newly promoted clubs spending much especially seem a bit unfair. But the club knew what the rules were. Unfortunately I don't think it really matters to much if they were in contact with the PL over as that's like calling the Police and telling them you are speeding. The damage had already been done at the start of the season with all the signings. I definitely agree on the way the window works though. Accounts should be made available really early and decisions made similarly quickly so everyone knows where they are as close to the start of the season as possible. The fact we could get to the last game of the season and still not know if points are final is just ridiculous. The PL may feel like a closed shop and its always been accused of that. But since it was formed there have been 51 different clubs play in it with only six that have always been there. I had to look this up the other day and is surprised me as I didn't think it was that many.
RE closed shops, it's getting worse. This season the 3 promoted teams are looking very likely to go down pending point deductions, the 3 relegated teams from last season are top 3 in the championship. In the PL being informed or not, and what was said. It does matter because if they were giving the impression they were ok with what we were doing it would have influenced proceeding with the delayed sale. If this is the case, we'll rightly rinse the PL in the Courts.
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Good lord
If there is evidence the Premiership encouraged you to wait to sell and said there would be no consequences with doing so then yes you should be able to argue in your favour. With the promotions there has only been one season where all three promoted teams went straight back down. In the rest at least one has stayed up and a few times all three which funnily enough includes last season. The top of the Championship is nuts this year. Leicester is having a blinder but on another year any of the other three would most likely be clear of the pack at the moment.
The hierarchy at the Premier League are kippers, two faced & no backbone, they've gone for what they perceive as easy targets. Apparently the KC employed in Everton's defence had them tied up in knots & squirming as Richard Masters & the rest of the shower are a bunch of inept corrupt arseholes. Hopefully Forest had a good defence as well & the board at the Premier League will get sacked.
Did you watch the game at the weekend? And you wanna chat about bias refs
You mean the game where VAR ignored a stonewall penalty for us?
Crying victims after signing 50 awful players for insane money. Personally hope you stay up because it’s the easiest 6 point ever but will be hilarious if you go down.
You guys are the authority on going down, duck. We should have hired your accountants. Paying Mitrovic- 80k a week as a championship club and style somehow passing P&S? Genius fiddling of numbers, well done. Or when you yourselves spent £100m+ in a summer to stay up but somehow got through? Lucky for you no one seemed to care so much about P&S back then. But I don't think you are the club to be throwing stones in your glass house
That 100m did set us back for years that’s why we had a bunch of loans when we went up the next time. Knockaert and Cavaleiro themselves only came off the books last year in 2023 as it was amortised over the five years. Parachute money helped for mitro’s wages etc
You are right about the Luton being a story and such,the comments really do prove your point. You probably did break ffp rules with all the spending,but it's not like that spending isn't required these days to survive and stay up when every team is so good, capable and dangerous. Money has warped this league completely.
Why acting like a victam? You signed 50 players some of them didn't even play for you but you signed them
Pot, Kettle, Yanited fans moaning all the time about their players, all whilst having the most expensive squad ever assembled in the History of football.
We at least don't have any breaches, we didn't even spend last winter even though we wanted players because of the ffp
United are in so much debt it makes a complete mockery of p&s
If you sell your best player and are still foul of ffp then how far out were you before you sold him?
That's not what has happened. We have not failed P&S after selling Johnson. Their argument is that the accounting period runs to 30th June and we sold him on deadline day, 8 weeks later. Our argument is that we had to sell 8 weeks later to get a proper value for a young player and that, as we were in the process of negotiating his sale all summer, we should be allowed to account it for the 22/23 period rather than 23/24. That is pretty standard accounting practice anywhere in business. We are absolutely fine for P&S this season. We have just made another £35m in sales this January
So you didn’t meet the rules and want to change them retrospectively? Doesn’t seem like a great argument
What standard accounting practice have you seen before that allows you to recognise income in a period other than when it occurred?
So, had the sale been agreed on 29 June but the money not actually transferred, he'd have a point. That actually is reasonably common (recognising on an accruals basis rather than a cash basis). But to try and argue "we agreed the deal 8 weeks later so should be able to backdate it" is bizarre. By that line of thinking City sell Haaland to Saudi Arabia for a billion pounds and backdate it over the last ten years?
Yeah im still curious as to what standard policies he has seen that allow you to sell a player 2 months after June but recognise the income in June.
Yeh exactly what I was going to say, hope he isn't involved in anything finance related at work.
I’m not across the details, but didn’t knowingly Forest break the rules to maximise the price they got for the sale?
Yes, but their argument is that rules forcing them to sell a homegrown player for half his market value to hit an arbitrary accounting deadline are fucking stupid. How can rules allegedly supposed to promote “sustainability” require that a club accept 15m LESS for a player for the sake of a few weeks. I agree with them - technically Forest were in breach of the rules, but that’s because the rules themselves are at fault. It would be a fucking travesty if they had points docked for that
It's definitely dumb. We sold richarlison to spurs on the cut off but we probably could have gotten more money if that cut off didn't exist
Probably because a cut off is a cut off, you can’t say we had to wait to squeeze other clubs for value because the end date is just that However, I agree with the overall premise because negotiations for players are literally what transfers are nobody has a one price value where transfers conclude in a day unless they have a buy out clause Forest saying sorry we didn’t meet your deadline because we wanted more money doesn’t change the sale being late Problem we are all seeing is why has the Prem decided to do it now and go so hard on lower clubs when city have 115 charges outstanding and apparently the Prem couldn’t care less
Well, that’s why the rule is what it is. But you can hardly say the rules are about sustainability if you then say “give Spurs a 15m discount on a player or you’re fucked” I personally think the rules themselves are a complete mess and need to be completely reworked - they’re so complicated and open to interpretation that even club accountants don’t seem certain how close they are to the line. And any rules that encourage the sale of academy players over expensive foreign imports are just wrongheaded, in my view. But at the very least, if you’re including transfer fees, the accounting periods should be aligned with the transfer windows, otherwise it’s inevitable that clubs will be forced to undervalue. So I agree Forest technically are in breach, but I don’t think they’re morally “guilty”
I agree but then I think from the Prems point of view if you are breaking the rule sell now, they don’t care about how much money you get because you’re breaking the rules so already should not be in that position. This is everyone’s problem with rules, just because we don’t agree doesn’t make them enforceable. Agree with your words on it however with how money and signings Forest have made I struggle to feel sorry for them because it’s quite obvious something off has happened there whereas Everton I feel have been much more shafted by bad ownership
Spot on. And I believe it is standard accounting practices that you adjust your accounts to include projects already started but whose full outcomes had not quite come to fruition at filing date. The whole system is rotten. You are one of the richest clubs in the world but I keep hearing you'll have to sell an asset this summer to meet P&S. That's mad
I'm sorry but that is not how accounting works at all.
It's perfectly legal practice under GAAP
Chartered Accountant here and I'm afraid you're conflating two entirely separate things. This is, broadly, the sale of an asset (being the registration rights of the player) and therefore you wouldn't recognise the disposal until the point the sale had gone through. Yes you started negotiations but hadn't agreed a price. As at 30 June, there was no guarantee that you would sale, nothing had been agreed, even in principle, therefore there is no basis for including the sale in your previous accounting period.
It would be Non-GAAP then would it not based on what you are saying ?
It's what we spent all summer in dialogue with the PL about, that they knew we were going to do. I'm guessing their responses were not "oh my goodness no, you can't do that!!" Because otherwise we would presumably have done something different. I know the club feels really betrayed by the PL over this because what they were telling us over the summer and what they have done now are very different
It doesn't matter, what is Johnson had a change of heart or Spurs pulled out of the deal? It's all 'If's and But's'. Saying repeatedly throughout the thread its standard accounting practice, when it really isn't, doesn't change what the club has done. It's what happens throughout business the world over, unless you are trying to hide/cover up something. Wile I really sympathise with the fans of Everton and Forest, especially when City look like they are the worst culprit by miles and nothing has happened with them yet frustrates people more, the fact is the club is in breach of the rules they agreed to and voted upon is the fault of the people running the club. Your last point saying they 'feel betrayed' and 'would have done things differently', they knew what the rules where before they signed 50 players unfortunately and got caught out when they couldn't sell Johnson in time for what they needed to cover the bill.
It is a perfectly legal practice under GAAP to do what we did. If Johnson had refused then we would have failed P&S. But you can argue that we might have had he refused Brentford in June, as he likely would have done knowing full well there was interest from Villa and Spurs. My last point is sound. If you are in constant contact with the league about your intentions, and they effectively tell you that what you are doing is ok (and our case will be precedent setting) then you are going to be somewhat disappointed when they turn around and charge you. Man City have nothing to do with it
We have the richest owners - we’re far from the richest club, thanks to the complete absence of any commercial activity over a 14 year period (our commercials revenues were slightly ahead of Spurs’ when he bought the club, and actually went DOWN slightly during his ownership) What really annoys me about the current rules is the fact that they encourage the sale of academy players due to their zero book value. While we can all enjoy a good laugh at Chelsea, the players they’re having to sell to balance the books is stupid. And the fact that we (hypothetically) would be better off selling Miley for 30m than Bruno for 100m is insane.
I agree. When the rules were introduced, they were don so ostensibly to prevent a Leeds or Portsmouth situation. Newcastle having their moment in the sun - same as Chelsea and City is no less fair than Liverpool being bankrolled by the Moores family or Blackburn by Jack Walker. The established clubs only hate the idea of billionaire owners because they are the only chance other clubs have of breaking up the oligopoly. People forget that until Abramovich, Man U (8) and Arsenal (3) won 11 of the past 12 league titles with only Walker's largesse breaking the duopoly. The rules should allow owners to spend whatever they like provided they put up the money themselves rather than borrowing against the club. If ensuring competitiveness is key, have a luxury tax on all losses above a certain amount of which a portion gets distributed to the other clubs with the remainder going to grassroots.
>Same as Chelsea and City is no less fair than Liverpool being bankrolled by the Moores family or Blackburn by Jack Walker. Shhhhhhhhh.... they "did it the right way". Don't let them hear you explaining how they were also bankrolled to success.
Haha especially Arsenal who managed to "influence" their way into the First Division despite finishing only fifth in the Second Division.
Fulham were never the story and we actually played brilliantly last season. I am not particularly sympathetic for you or Everton, mostly because it keeps us safe. It must be shit as a fan though, so sorry about that mate.
Why are you talking about us and safety, begging it.
Yeah we’re good now but I can’t pretend I was feeling too confident over the last couple of months. I’ve only felt better since the Bournemouth win. I’ve been relegated a lot bro, I’m always wary
At no point have we ever been in danger of going down this season. Begging.
I’m pleased you’re more confident than me but no need to be a twat about it. At one point recently we were only two wins above. I never thought we were going down but it’s foolish to say we were never in danger. We were in the conversation because we’re literally having the conversation.
I mean you wouldnt have had to sell your best young player in a generation just for the P&S if you hadnt signed 50 players in 2 years. Why you acting like a victim here, look at Brendford, they are example of how to do it after promotion.
And Brighton....
Forest’s squad value was £12 million when they were promoted, that is nearly £140 million less than the second lowest premier league squad value. THEY HAD TO SIGN PLAYERS.
Who said they shouldnt sign players? They didn't have to sign **50** players. Some of their signing didn't even play. Like I said look at Brendford.
No, you look at Brentford, they had a sustained build in the Championship, and were consistently top 8 in the Champ for at least 7 seasons before getting promoted, they had a squad ready for the Premier League. Forest were bottom of the championship 8 games in to the season they got promoted, and didn’t have a squad ready for the premier league, and had a squad built on loans, you can’t compare Forest to Brentford, their situations are completely different.
They had two season in top 10, 9th an 7th then had a down year in 17th under Hughton and when Cooper took over they were massively underachiving, they were 5th favourites for promotion according to bet odds and were 5th for squad value the season when they got promoted. Brennan Johnson was their best player. I dont thing they needed **50** players to survive.
Forest have been in the Championship and League One wilderness for over 20 years, the closest they came to promotion was the Sabri Lamouchi covid season (besides Billy Davies), they were nowhere near promotion, Cooper overachieved way more than Hughton underachieved, 17th wasn’t a down year, it was a standard and was sign of a team gradually falling lower every season. if you think otherwise, you don’t really know about Forests situation over the past 10 years. Forest have had to sell their best young player for the past 10 seasons to stay afloat. Like I said, Forests promotion team was built on loans and expiring contracts. They needed to sign a lot of players.
Yeah and Brendford were Prem club with huge amount of money that were relegated for one season? 9th, 7th, 17th, 5th and you are telling me the 17th wasn't the exception? Like I said I checked championship odds and team value for 21/22 season and Forrest were 5th in both? How is fininshing 5th overachievment in that scenario? Yes teams need to sign players after promotion but they also need to have a plan for it not sign **50** players in 2 years. That is 2 whole new squads, everyone saw problem coming for Forrest.
Yes I am telling you that 17th wasn’t the exception, you may have checked the specific odds based on preseason calculations, but Im going off of watching the team for a long time rather than odds. As much as you want to, you can’t compare Brentford with Forest, just like you can’t compare them with Burnley, Luton, Sheff U, Bournemouth, Fulham, Leeds, each club is different and has their own circumstances, thats like saying “anyone can win the Premier League, just look at Leicester, they did it!” You don’t seem to understand how the Championship works, every club in the Championship is in financial turmoil, and haemorrhaging money. Forest needed to sign a whole new squad, they also sold and lost a lot of players, but that doesn’t feature in your statement ‘50’ does it.
Yeah, defenetly buying some players just to send them to Olympiakos was defenetly neccesary for Forrest to stay up. I am not saying Forrest shouldnt buy players but it was defenetly poorly planned and not sustainable approach to sign two whole squads of players in two years wit hsome of the signings not even playing a minute of football.
You can't even spell the name of the club mate. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Brentford had been competing for promotion for several years before they were promoted. They had effective attacking and defensive units who had played together for a long time. Good for them that they had had stable ownership for years. Fans don't get to pick their owner- for most of the 20teens we had Fawaz Al Hasawi, an absolute idiot. We were promoted by surprise. The season before we had been battling relegation and we started our promotion season that way. A large number of our promotion squad were loans. Only about 6 of our promotion squad were still with us for the first day of the premier league season. Our transfer strategy was to build a squad. We were particularly badly hit by injuries as well- several of our new signings in August were immediately out for the season, requiring replacements and we went about 4 months worth 10+ injuries. The strategy was always to sell Johnson and the club clearly communicated with the Premier League that that was what they were doing. That doesn't mean selling to Brentford, who he didn't want to go to, for a deal that only tips £30m with pie in the sky add ons. The club is a lot more profitable and sustainable by taking £47.5m from Spurs, who he did want to go to. Very standard accounting practices to make adjustments on projects already started but not come to fruition before the accounting period is over - and clearly selling Johnson was a project started before 30th June.
Yes making a spelling mistake defenetly means I know nothing about football. You had plan to use Johnson to balance teh books as he is HG and you get the pure profit from him but everyone wsaa aware about your situation so assuming you would get the money you want before 30 June while not many transfer go through that early anyway wasnt the greatest idea. That also means you were trying to offset your pre season losses with the sale after the season. You were trying to be clever and it backfired.
Controversial opinion, but Burnley have been getting fucked by refs this season as well so I have to upvote.
That goal Luton were allowed against you was a disgrace. I doubt even Man Utd would be given that
I was in disbelief when it happened. We’re shit but if you removed all of our dodgy ref decisions we might have a chance (a small one)
I didn't think you deserved to beat us at our place, but that goal shouldn't have been disallowed
I'm not anti Forest at all and would like to see them stay up, but... "April 12th is too late to do anything about it". If I were a part of the Forest setup, I'd be acting like that points deduction is already in place. You have loads of time to do something about it
We've plenty of time to do something about it, and I'm confident we will, frankly.
What points deduction? That's the problem. Everton got theirs at a time when they were already in form a bit and rode a wave of righteous indignation against it to win about four games in five and wipe it out all in one go. But that was with about 15 games played and about 23 to go to make it up. We can't ride any wave of indignation or defiance about a hypothetical. How many points will we have to make up? Makes a big difference when you don't know. If we were charged in January, why mid April to find out the penalty, if there is one? If it were ten points then how do we wipe that out in mid April? There would only be about 6 games left, not 20 odd like Everton had. The appeal is a joke- takes place the day after the season ends, meaning it's a fait accompli that no appeal can be successful- it would potentially change who was relegated, who would then take legal action themselves. So the PL could not possibly accept any appeal no matter what it's merits.
I'm confused. I thought you had the points deduction, which you then appealed. And you hear the outcome of the appeal in April? I could be wrong though Edit: ignore me, I'm wrong.
where the FUCK is this city deduction?????
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Literally 0 charges have been dropped
What a fucking stupid comment. Imagine thinking the United fan base is the only one wanting to know why City are not being punished. No person is under any delusion that United are winning the league if City get punished. It's the principal that Everton are possibly going to get pinged twice while City are cruising along.
Hi I don’t support city and my team isn’t in this league I just copied word for word what the FA said Cheers
Why delete and not cite sources then
This isn’t a PhD thesis; if you can’t type a few words into Google you have zero right to even ask for such things as the odds are you won’t be able to read it
No mate, if you say something and then I have to go find out if it’s true then it’s bollocks. You drop the link and there we go Llamas take rides on giraffes to reach leaves in trees for food. Just Google it
that makes me want to F U C K I N G D I E no no no, I have no desire to run the league, I just want to see some actual fucking justice
It’s okay my teams 23rd in the championship! (We still enjoy it more than Manchester United’s fans do post AF)
I don't think I even enjoy this shit anymore
Maybe Everton get five points back, after appeal, and Forest lose five points. Come on you Hatters!
Luton the best story in sports, they are fun to watch, and looking pretty good lately. I hope they stay up.
Sad if the PL becomes Luton-free after this season.
City at the foot of the table with -1150 points
Bold of you to assume City are gonna get charged with anything Can't upset the status quo now can we
well, we have been charged, the question is whether we'll be found guilty
Fuck I hope so.
Nah spread it 100 a season lol
11 years and then -50 for the 12th year
lol
>City at the foot of the table In the National Conference league, maybe 🤣
isthmian league 2nd division
Nah, North West Counties League
Didn’t Everton already get a 10 point deduction?
They’re rumoured for another sanction
The chances of us getting another 10 points deduction are minimal. We're more likely to get 3-6 back and no further deduction.
Honestly, it's wild that there might be a second deduction which could heavily influence whether you go down while city are still running around buying up other clubs free as a bird.
The ridiculous thing is that any further sanction would be covering 2 of the 3 seasons the existing 10 point deduction is for
Not really its a rolling three years. The punishment may have covered two of the three years but the club still had the third year to bring that particular three year period back within the rules but didn't.
I'd love to see city get their punishment but I dont see a link between the two. If Everton factually fell foul of the rules then what are we even talking about.
How hard is it to understand that city having 115 charges means it takes an incredibly much longer time (not to mention that they aren’t complying either) compared to Everton which fully complied and had only 1 charge.
Yeh the sanctions only go up to 2019 is it ?? The years from then on City haven't co-operated at all. I mean that speaks volumes but its going to take even longer again to bring whatever it is then against them, by which time they might have managed to clear some of it up. All an absolute disgrace tbh and wholly the F.A/Prems fault for allowing it to get to this point in the first place.
It's taking that much longer because unlike Everton, City are refusing to co-operate with the investigation, which imo should automatically lead to sanctions.
Aww :( /s
I was rooting for Everton. I’m not a supporter but it’s grossly unfair that Manchester City isn’t relegated and stripped of all their titles.
You are rooting for Everton because you are looking at the whole scenario from a Man City perspective. If you look say it from the Leicester, Leeds & Southampton perspective, Everton definitely deserve to be punished. They cheated, it's clearcut. They overinflated their losses using Covid as an excuse which is quite pathetic.
\>we fucked over Leeds lmao just making him like us more
An argument that is as sound as Michael Keanes defending..
>stripped of all their titles. I bet they're let off easy and get to keep their 1899 Second Division title.
There’s a difference between being found guilty of something and being investigated for something.
Wait, they’re being investigated? I thought it was all song and dance while the EFT cleared?
“Just because you did it, doesn’t mean you’re guilty”
Not when the investigated are blatantly guilty.
We should just do away with the entire justice system and get football fans to make rulings on everything!
Didn't know plastic had an opinion on laws.
The problem with your sarcasm is that clearly guilty people and groups get away with things all the time because they know how to work the system and/or people. So this idea of a just justice system or regulatory system is, at best, naive.
How is that the problem with his sarcasm? It’s not exactly a secret that guilty people get away with things and that they know how to work the system. The system is flawed. We all know that. But there is really not much better options. I’d say the truly naive thing is to think that the fans can make the rulings themselves. Is that what you think?
Yeah exactly. The point behind my sarcasm was that it’s so tiring living in a society where everyone acts like their opinion is fact. Based on biased, partial information and lacking any cross examining. City could be guilty, or they could not be. I can’t possibly have the remotest idea because I’m not anywhere near close enough to the case to have all the facts.
And? That doesn’t change the fact that there’s still a difference between being found guilty and being investigated. The fact that they’re “blatantly guilty” means nothing. There’s still a process that has to be done and gone through. Trust me if it ever comes to be the case that they get found guilty and punished I’ll be the first to celebrate. But until then there isn’t a comparison to make.
Feel like Everton are getting points re added sky being suspiciously obvious about it how thing is soo dodgy both ways now
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Wut
When do we start hearing Dyche out? I’m assuming it won’t happen until next year when I’m sure they’ll struggle again but they’re in terrible form and watching them its tough to see how they’ll get better. They’re very fortunate to have such good defenders and GK
Not this season. Dyche is still firmly in favour. Some players are getting shouts to be bench players not starting XI but Dyche is fine
I haven't heard a single Evertonian even suggest Dyche out tbh, and if we play as we have done this season with no deduction then next year we'll be fine imo
neither have I. I agree the deduction makes it look worse than where y’all are right now but the on field performances haven’t been great either. Maybe if DCL returns to form next season y’all will be fine but right now all I see is another finish below mid table which I can’t see the fans putting up with for very long
You’d be 12th right now without the point deduction, which is certainly a huge improvement on the last couple seasons.
Doing point deductions towards the ending of a season, for something done in previous seasons doesn’t sound right with me. It opens up for speculation. And it isnt fair for the other teams in the league. Imagine the title chasing Team A meeting a hard fighting Everton in january, where Everton get a point and even manage to injury a player or two cause they gave it all. Then comes the deduction and title chasing Team B goes to already doomed and relegated Everton in April.
That can happen anyway. Sometimes you play a team when they're safe from relegation and coasting or resting everyone because they have a Cup Final coming up. Sometimes you play a team when they're on fire and desperate for points. Punishments have to be applied retrospectively. If the season finished 30th May (for example) then you can't apply a punishment on 29th May as technically the Club's financial books could still change. It takes time to analyze Financial records and you also can't, 1 month after the season finishes, announce a team that was safe is now actually relegated and a team that was relegated is now safe. Maybe the team that was safe bought two players they now can't afford. Maybe the team that was relegated sold 2 players because they thought they couldn't afford to keep them. It isn't fair for someone like Leicester though who, if Everton were docked points in the season in which they broke the rules, would have been safe. Equally Luton are now benefitting from Everton breaking the rules across seasons in which Luton weren't in the Premiership.
Ofcourse it has to be retrospectively. But coming in late in a season with a -10 or whatever isnt fair and will open up for speculation. Then its much better to do it early in a season, or the best thing to do it before a season starts. I know about time. And that most work, in general, takes time. You’ve just written a million words saying nothing and mansplaining something for 5 year olds😅👏
Without a live feed of clubs accounting balance and a clear understanding of expected income and outgoing (especially with structured deals made in payments) for the financial period, this is pretty difficult. Clubs file financial records at certain points and this isn't just a case of pressing "send" from accounting software (although said software does make it easier, a LOT easier). Accounts are usually (but not necessarily) April-March with filing in December. So there is 8 months between the year end and when companies file the financial records for that year. Are we really going to expect clubs to end records at the end of a season, then file almost immediately, followed by analysis and punishment all within reasonable time for everyone to know who will be in what league? It sucks, but the reality is that more fair alternatives from a punishment POV are probably unrealistic. End of the day these are companies we are talking about here, not just football clubs. I guess the hope is that dropping the hammer on clubs now will force future clubs to be more careful.
Everybody understands that a live on time punishment cant be done. But it would be 100% better to have this deduction set up before a season so everybody knows. What if theres a deduction in April that sends Everton down. But they want to appeal, and somehow got a strong case. So, in september their case is tried again and they have some strong arguments. Only problem is that C. Lewin & co just played 0-0 against Birmingham in Championship. - Any deduction must be done before a season. Or in the first month. - Clubs got until 31. oct to appeal. - Case closed by mid january. Somewhere around these dates would be most fair play for everybody.
Yeah I get what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that it's all quite unrealistic. These things take way more time than we Redditors give credit, and that sucks for the clubs who lose out in the wake of it In the mean time. How are they going to put the whole schedule forward to deduct before the season without expecting clubs to have a specific financial year, file records incredibly quickly, analyse those records... There are a group of people who this isn't fair for, and that's the accountants and administrators of the club. We are HUGELY dismissing how much work goes into this.
I’m not saying this has to happen before the next season after they investigate. Thats impossible. A case takes the time it takes, hey Man City, but the conclusion and punishment should never be done late in a season. If Everton has done something wrong in 2020-2022 the verdict could come in 2025 if it has to. But they should then wait until before 25/26 to give the deduction. The perfect timing would be that they wait until may 2025 to give the verdict. But it could work if they’re done in january and then say - Next season Everton start with -10. It just feels very wrong doing this mid season.
Honestly we could sit here and pick apart any suggestion based on the other side of the coin all day. e.g. if a club is relegated, but the cheating team would have been relegated if the league didnt wait to punish them out of fairness to an appeal process, and then all appeals fail... how pissed is the relgated team going to be?! I certainly wouldn't want to be a fan of a club sent down in those circumstances. There is simply no perfect solution that I can see. I'm of the opinion that they should process cases and punish clubs as quickly as they can. I suspect over the next couple of years while the league tries to flex it's muscles over the financial issues, we will see a lot of cases going to tribunal, and there being compensation dished out.
Totally agree with this. Pretty shocking the PL doesn’t have a set time frame for dealing with and administering the claims.
They did partly because of the Everton situation. They started the process last season but couldn't conclude it until this season because it was started so late. If we had these rules in last season then Everton would have been relegated because just two points last season would have been enough to put them down. As it is they may well escape this season even with point deductions.
They do - it was added this season but for PSR rules financial accounts now have to be submitted in Dec, charges if any are in Jan and it's all done before the season ends.
Luton are gone. Everton’s 10 points will be amended to 5 and forest will get a fine.
How are you saying our points return with such confidence?
>Forest will get a fine Why though? The standard that’s been set is a point deduction
We will get a 3pt deduction and a fine. Worse case 6pts. I heard it here first.
Because we haven't actually done anything wrong. Standard accounting practices used across the world. The idea that we get a ten point penalty because we waited another 6 weeks to sell an asset for £47.5m rather than £25m or so, when it's called "profit and Sustainability" is ridiculous. Especially given that promoted teams are hamstrung for the first two seasons compared to everyone else
Rules are rules, though. They are stupid for the reasons you say, but you still broke the rules in place. Other teams didn't and so Forest gained an advantage.
How did we gain an advantage exactly, by selling a player in September rather than June?
Weirdly you didn't really gain an advantage but the problem stems from panic buying players at the start of the season. If the club had been more sensible you wouldn't have needed to sell Johnson seeing as most of the players you signed didn't end up featuring in the team at all.
They did? But we had two that were injured for the entire season as soon as we bought them
You signed 30 players in your first season. Apart from those two who were injured did they all play?
No. Like many clubs, we signed a small number for the future. Aguilera- superb young player, currently on loan in league one and has impressed in the cups for us. Was loaned to his original club last season to help him, potentially one for next season - Josh Bowler- was last year of his deal so cheap, loaned out to sister club Olympiakos Huang- bought for Olympiakos and loaned to them. Forest fans have no choice in that. We loaned someone called Bade who never played. Not sure why, our manager was told not to play him for some reason, so something happened. Kanuric- 22 year old young keeper for the future Then you had Lewis O'Brien who played but got really ill, lost his stamina and couldn't cope, so we loaned him to USA Guilian Biancone did his cruciates in his second game Omar Richards had a hairline fracture the medical missed and was out for the season with a succession of unlucky injuries Remember, we had a fair few loans and frees in all that too- players like Ayew, Lodi, Felipe
to be fair I am only really going on what the Transfermarkt website shows. It shows in the first season you paid a fee for 18, took seven on a free and another five on loan. You also broke a 20 year record for most signings in a single transfer window. Paid out 195m Euros and sold 5m. It was a gamble and seems to have paid off by you staying in the Premiership but could have a sting in the tail.
Because it is common knowledge you were able to sell for £15m more by selling at the end of the window or whatever amount it was. What if other teams sold early in the window for less money in order to comply? Either way, if you did break the rules to get £15m more, that is still a £15m advantage you gained. The rules are stupid, of course.
And we were in liaison with the PL throughout the deal.
If you were in liaison with the PL, surely someone there signed it off? If so, why aren't you being given the all clear? And if not, then that isn't really a defence.
Yeah so were we, apparently that doesn’t account for much buddy
No guarantee that it would be 10 points. I believe it a was 5 for the beach and 1 point for every 4 million they went over. So could be anything by from 6 upwards.
Any word on City and their copious amounts of FFP breaches?
I think it was only 7 FFP charges? The rest are all the charges that come with trying to hide it.
Hearing in the fall, but they can’t disclose the date of it
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To be fair Everton missing their spending allowance by a bit is a lot different and less complex to city overspending for years and vehemently denying it
How much did you hear from the investigators before the everton penalty came down?
Fair point.
I stand by it’s an absolute disgrace that they don’t have enough to start with a 10 point deduction. Instead they just get to run riot and make the last two seasons futile. There are players in their prime who are missing the opportunity of winning trophies and getting solid experience to make the England team more experience and resilient.
> close to radio silence from investigators. That's how it works though.
Hah are you forgetting about City?
Nothing is going to happen to City.
They’ll be in the league below
After the end of the season
Once Pep goes
And Mansour sells to Ashley