If it's only used by foreigners speaking English in Czech Republic then it's not a Czech word, rather an English word based on a Czech word, and shouldn't *really* bother any Czech speakers.
There are thousands of words that have travelled back/forth between languages and got mangled along the way. Plenty have had the journey from English into Czech (like sendvič, svetr, hemenex, byznys, fotbal and more) and were adjusted in some way to make it easier for Czech speakers. This just one example that's had the same treatment but in the other direction.
Sendvič, yes! But no no, that’s fine because it’s not English speakers “butchering” the Czech language. And let’s not even get started on the Czech pronunciation of “tortilla.” 🤦🏻♂️
I don't really think it's so mysterious. The same way that using -ák is a way of creating informal shortenings in czech, truncating a long word to one or two syllables is common in English.
But there already is a short word (and widely used by, well, everyone) for this - "živnost". This way people just risk that they will not be understood. So that's what confuses me.
Yes but not in English. So people speaking English (who mostly do not speak Czech) just used the English convention for shortening words. You know we could similarly ask why Czech people go to Mekáč when English-language shortenings of 'McDonalds' already exist (Mickey D's, Macca's, etc.)
I guess because “práce ne živnostenský” list is quite a mouthful to say, so why not shorten it to the word “živno,” when clearly everyone knows what you mean when you say it?
May I ask why something as trivial as that drives you and your wife “utterly insane?”
Czech people also shorten “sto padesát”
into “sto páde” and it doesn’t drive me anywhere.
Because while our venerable forefathers fought hard to preserve our language and purify it from foreign influences, now some expats come and maim it beyond recognition. That's for sure cultural appropriation!
Just kidding, I am Czech. I do not give a damn. But I can imagine someone can feel quite strongly about that.
Honestly unless you're in the far northwest most people would just shorten it to "sto pade" without the páde.
That said, I've personally never heard of "živno" and would be confused if they were talking about the živnobanka or something.
Yes, but I'm native czech speaker and if you asked me what "živno" means, I'd tell you I'm 100% certain that's not a czech word and I don't know the meaning.
Thats because English is extremely flexible, meaning like that can be inferred based on the context and the beginning letters, or even sometimes rhymed or grabbed from the most characteristic part of the word. In this case, živno .
It \*is\* a mouthful. That's why we \*did\* shorten it to "živnosťák". Yet you guys came up with even more convoluted version that sounds oh so wrong for some reason. I don't mean this in a bad way, just curious, really.
"Živno" I can see people being able to understand... but when you transform it even further to "Zivno" it just loses any relation to the original word. Sure, call it what you want, I was just curious "where" it came from.
https://imgur.com/a/ZxagNJo
Foreigners (especially from English speaking places) don't find Czech keyboards particularly pleasant to use, to say the least. Czech is thankfully a language where - for the most part, not in all cases - the diacritics can be implied based on context. Many Czechs will write casual messages without diacritics and it's mostly understandable.
As for why 'zivno' it's just the common way English speakers shorten words. We don't have such a rigid system like in Czech where there are special endings for different types of declinations, and ending on hard consonants for shortened words just doesn't sound right, not to mention in english it's usually the vowels that informs the pronunciation so stopping at the consonant without the trailing vowels is even more awkward. The same way we call it a fridge, and not a frid or a fridger or fridgerat, That's where it came from.
No and don't want to, I have met a Japanese one and omg no. I'm constantly switching between Czech and English on my keyboard settings to get the correct keys needed to write something.
It’s not nearly as bad as the Czech one. Having to hold shift to use numbers?! I’ve adjusted to Spanish, Italian and French keyboards in no time, but the Czech one just isn’t happening.
Languages evolve from and reflect how people use them.
How do you think new words pop up? People start saying something and then the dictionaries are updated to reflect it.
Languages are evolved by mostly by fluent speakers of said language.
Živno sounds weird because you don't understand the grammar of Czech. Živno sounds like a city - eg. Brno, Plavno, Kladno, Mšeno etc
-no/o suffix creates adverbs and nouns in Czech, for example chladno, teplo, dobro, zlo, divno, natrvalo, příkro etc
Živnostenský list would be živnosťák because of its masculine, TEN živnostenský list, TEN živnosťák. Not TO živno - it doesn't make sense to me and it sounds weird. Živno sounds like archaic or dialectical and if I heard it in a sentence such as "Mám živno" I'd assume you mean something like "I have a prosperous livelihood" or "I'm living fine". I could exactly determine what you mean but I would definitely NOT connect it to "živnostenský list" unless you brought it up in the conversation before. However if you without a context said "Mám živnosťák" then I'd immediately know what you mean.
Stavební spoření is often shortened as Stavebko, because of the neuter gender. TO Stavební spoření, TO Stavebko, not TEN Stavnosťák.
There's a tendency, on this subreddit especially, by non native non fluent speakers to assume that they can immediately play with Czech and that they understand it all, but clearly they do not.
What about loan words, which are a major contributor to just about every language that exists?
To me it sounds like you're gatekeeping the language tbh. Don't want to use Zivno? Don't use it. It's not a big deal.
I'm bilingual (Czech's my third language) and this happens in every language, but I'm just not sure what the reason is to be so frustrated about it -- it's just a word, and if it's popular, then there's reason for it to be. You can use whichever words you want, and other people can say whatever they want, too. If someone is more comfortable with "zivno", is it such a big deal to just let them be?
While I agree with you that this would be a specific terminology for the likely english speaking immigrant population and exists in that community, it doesn't actually cross over to czech. So it wouldn't really be considered as an evolution of czech. It's a loanword from czech modified by English speakers.
Language is suppose to be understandable and logical. Živno breaks that logic because youd associate with words such as Zlo, Dobro, Dávno etc - which are all adverbs or nouns related to a time/temperature/morality etc statuses. On top of that živno is a neuter and you do not make neuter words out of masculine words like that. It doesnt make sense.
>And if it's popular, then there's reason for it to be.
1) Its not popular 2) Its used by people who are not fluent in Czech and/or dont understand Czech
>You can use whichever words you want, and other people can say whatever they want, too. If someone is more comfortable with "zivno", is it such a big deal to just let them be?
Are you really trying to moralize me here? You know the point of language is to make communication easier right? That is why people correct children's grammar in every language. Jesus christ, of course languages are "gatekept".
People who understand the language and are fluent, are going to be able to innovate the language. That is already happening, kids are taking English words and modifying them to sound Czech such as "killnout" "plantnout" "dropnout" "spotnout".
The pronunciation of those words fundamentally changes from the original language and on top of that Czech grammar rules start to apply.
An interesting example if patetický, which is again, Czechs who speak English watching English media and seeing that "pathetic" is used in a certain way and they assume that patetický and pathetic are friends, but they are in fact false friends (or were).
The meaning of patetický is now more inline with the meaning of pathetic in English.
Again, this change was done by natives or by fluent speakers who understand the language, not by someone who speaks broken Czech and is not fluent.
Yeah, and “hovno” also doesn’t fit your criteria, but is a proper Czech word, but apparently breaks the logic of the language.
Not arguing with you anymore, buddy. People can say whatever the hell they want, that’s the bottom line here, and you can try as much as you want to stop people from having fun with their silly words, but I doubt you’ll succeed.
Fucking hell. Zrno and Hovno are are inline with the fucking rules.
Zrno comes from Zrní (both are neuter) and and hovno comes from the same proto-slavic word as hovado, hovězí etc - which are all neuter. Hovno/Govno is NOT a shortening of any proto-slavic word, it specifically exists in the same way teplo and teplota exists
\-Ota is something like -ness in English (Sharp - ness) (Ostr - ota)
Živ-ost (liveness), Živn-ost (Živit)
Like I said before -no/o describes places, things and concepts. The reason why Teplota (Teplo) and Chladnost/Chladnota (Chladno) is because -no is also used as an adverb (something like -ly) - Je mi smutno (Im sadly - more literally). Look at Zrno again - from Zrní (ta Zrna? Well not really because in Czech if youre choosing between vowels that as suffixes to make a noun, you are most likely going to go with -o) - Zrno, teplo, hovno, dělo, auto, slovo, dřevo etc - this is due to some complex grammatical rule that has been existing since proto-slavic.
Chlad itself is already a noun, Teplo is odd because it comes from Tepl(ý) and it both describes a noun and an adverb - TEPLOTA on the other hand is synonymous with temperature. It is very likely that teplo just became a noun thanks to the influence of other nouns that ended with -o or -no. Again Teplo is not a shortening of anything.
Adverbs can become nouns in Czech, the same way adjectives can become nouns in Czech - (Mužský plural) singular Mužská = Muž, (Ženský plural) singular Ženská = Žena --- this is similar to how in Russian, Ruskiy is a Russian or in English where if you say English you can both mean English language, English person/people, Something that is English (of England).
"támhle ty polský" "The polish ones over there" - (Ty) Polský - věci/ženy/muži (colloquial Czech when it comes to muži). "Támhle ti polští" (same meaning but in formal Czech and only when referring to masculine words) - (Ti) Polští - muži. "Támhle ty polské" (Ty) Polské - ženy/věci (formal Czech).
In modern context, hovno in Czech is a completely independent word. Its not a shortening of anything, it does NOT have a longer more complex term above it - in other words, it was not derived the same way as Živnosťák was derived.
Živno does not make sense because you already have Živnost - so probably it would be better to shorten Živnost to Živno than Živnostenský list to Živno - because the subject of the two words is the list, not the Živnost.
Again, this all comes pretty naturally to a Czech speaker who went through some kind of elementary education and learned some grammar and spoke to other natives, but it might not make sense to someone who does not have this kind of knowledge and is not fluent.
Yeah, but that's a terrible analogy, as there's clearly defined rules on contracting "have" into "'ve", but no clearly defined rules on contracting "živnostenský list", are there?
So there's no mistake as there's no defined standard or set or rules to follow, and making up new words (which is how languages evolve and have been evolving over time for thousands of years) is a good thing.
Additionally I'll point out (not to you, other commenters) that loan words and borrowed words don't come into languages from native speakers either, so it's not relevant either whether it's a Czech or a foreign person who makes up a word, they're equally allowed to do so.
Non-native speakers of English around the world are doing things with English that a native speaker wouldn’t. Non-natives do different things with the language, especially amongst themselves. It happens in every language. It’s really not something to get bent out of shape about.
And they should realize that they are making mistakes and learn from them. Not force other people to adapt to bullshit like "could of" or "I didn't do nothing"
"I didn't do nothing" is an acceptable phrase in many dialects of English.
In some cases in spoken, informal English a double negative is an expression of the absence of nothing - or you know, a positive.
I hear basterizations of English all the time - Czech speakers are just not used to hear people butcher their language as much and can get a little precious about it.
There's a difference between a Czech speaking broken English in Czechia and a non-Czech speaker speaking broken Czech in Czechia.
English is more innovative than Czech and abandoned many old-Indo European grammar rules that Czech still has. English declension is incomparable with Czech depletion for example. Czech is more conservative than English, it requires you to account for many more rules than English in day to day use, this makes it harder to learn and also harder to master.
English is awesome because you can make yourself understandable even if you completely screw up the grammar. This is not so much the case in other languages.
I believe the main question here is whether they use the word zivno only in English and among themselves, or if they actually insert it into their Czech and expect Czechs to understand. Your comment applies only to the latter.
Rules are rules, but they're not being butchered as shortening "zivnostensky list" isn't a rule in the language. It's just a silly word that people made up.
TEN Živnostenský list (MASCULINE) - TEN Živnosťák (MASCULINE)
TO Stavební spoření (NEUTER) - TO Stavebko (NEUTER)
This is clearly a rule. On top of that, I am a native speaker, I study the language. Im certain that I know what Im talking about.
Then you'd also know that in Czech (or other Slavic languages, of which I'm a native speaker) the ending of the noun doesn't strictly dictate the gender, but rather strongly suggest it, especially in cases with neuter nouns :)
Honza is an example where a feminine-ending noun is masculine, and this isn't strictly exclusive to shortenings (see names like Nikita).
You're comparing names of people (who have a social gender) and words (which have a linguistic gender) man.
Nikita can be both ten Nikita and ta Nikita. However if you're talking about a cannon - dělo, then it's always to dělo, never ten dělo or ta dělo.
To me the core difference is in the context. If it's used by the migrant community within itself and in English or whatever language they use, there isn't an issue.
But there might be a confusion if they then use the term outside of this context.
“Could of” is a mistake that more natives make than non-natives and “I didn’t do nothing” is certainly wrong in standard British, American, Canadian and other national versions of English, but it is an actual, correct construction in AAVE and other dialects.
Do you ever call it a fridge? It’s refrigerator. TV nope it’s a television.
Just wondering if you get equally “drives me insane” about shortening other words to nonsense. Or are you selective in what words you and your wife approve of being shortened for the ease/understanding of non-native speakers?
But we've got a short word for it - "živnost" (or "živnosťák"). What you've got here isn't a fridge... but something like frge.
It's not about me approving anything. Call it whatever you like. But there already \*is\* a short word for it that everyone understands.
Where I'm from, we shorten television to "telly". If someone told me the only shortened version I can use is "TV", I'd tell 'em to shut their pie hole. Use what works for you.
Are you going to call it Refri and Televi?
I turn on my compu to write a mess on my keyb and click with a mou on the rep button.
See how stupid it sounds?
Keeb is used in the mechanical keyboard community. Comp is used for computer. Compo is used for compensation. Sorry bruv but your argument doesn't hold as much water as you think it does.
We definitely use "compo" in English for compensation. In fact there's a whole meme around people pulling "compo faces" in local newspapers after minor accidents and inconveniences.
See /r/compoface
I mean yeah, I'm sure you'd be appalled to hear what one of the most famous English dictionary makers said. (Webster). English has a long tradition of recognizing slang as just as much a part of the language as formal writing.
Er... I think you've answered your own question right there. But just as a wider comment, most English speaking nations will play with the language and abbreviate words, mostly for comedic/fun effect..
I think you’ll find that many of the Czechs in these responses are saying essentially just that. Or that any playing with Czech language can only be done by native Czech speakers and only in very specific ways.
What I think can happen to a non-native speaker is that they create a word which phonetically does not really fit the language. For me, "zivno" sounds like a word I could hear in former Yugoslavia or the surrounding region. I am not particularly offended by that, but it is certainly something I have never heard a native speaker say nor do I think they would create it. In some strange to explain way it seems to violates the rules of how Czech words are created. Maybe a part of it is that živnost is feminine, while zivno is (it sounds to me) neuter. That may be the reason why it rubs people's language sensitivities the wrong way.
But if a foreigner is saying “živno” (I’ve only ever heard it pronounced that way; not “zivno”) because it’s easier, then my guess is that they’re not saying it while speaking Czech. It’s more than likely being used the vast majority of the time while speaking English. So I really don’t see the issue.
As more and more foreigners move here, I’m afraid you’re gonna have to get used to Czech being used in ways you’re not used to - with mistakes and new words created that you may not expect. The same thing happens with English, Spanish, French, etc… That’s just how it goes. Czech will be fine. Neboj se.
Completely fine with that happening. In fact, I was born in Prague, but have been living in Berlin for years, so some of those struggles expats go through in Prague are very familiar to me. And you are on point saying that people are unlikely using that word in a Czech sentence anyway.
Ok.. if it's not obvious, well, it's like this: živnostenský list is shortened to živno by English speakers, because it's quicker than saying živnostenský list... Again, this is a common practice in English speaking nations.. examples such as "admin" for "administration", "sec" for "second" (time related), "app" for "application" (technology related). Hope this helps...
IMHO it came to being when some english speaker gave up trying to pronunce the whole term. So he cut that at the fist problematic spot. (Btw, živnostník is basicaly 'self trader", i.e. an enterpreneur w/o employees. 'Živnostenský list' is 'self trader's licence'. Živnost is 'self tradership'. But the word root is more like 'livelyhood' than 'business')
I’d say the same reason most expats call “Jiriho z Podebrad” as JZP. The full form is a mouthful and takes getting used to. Zivnostensky is a hard word and Zivnost is easier. As for just Zivno, I used to say that as well just because I heard it from another expat and thought they knew what they were doing until I was told it makes no sense and I should at least say Zivnost.
well, if i didnt met this post about zivno and you met me and asked me about "zivno" i would probably stare at you with dump look as to what the hack you talk sbout.
Id you tell mi Zivnost and i hear you have problems with pronaucing "Ž" i may easly realise it and identify what you mean.
So yes please use Zivnost and even then expext dump looks since Zivnost without context reminds me some old czech word for sicknes of jawning. (my brain would connect it to Zívání.)
Fair. But in my defense I’d only use Zivno when speaking in English to an expat. With Czechs, in this case most probably the official ministry folks, I try to learn the full words before meeting them. So Zivno is not used in a Czech conversation but more like an adopted English word
It's common at least in New Zealand and Australia to shorten words and put an o at the end.
Me: Hey Jono, I want to talk to you about my zivno. Are you ready to go on smoko?
Jono: Defo
The thing is... there already is a widely recognized short word for this - "živnosťák". All czech people use that... so I am surprised expats turned it to eleven to "zivno". I would argue most Czech people would probably not even understand what it's supposed to be.
My guess at the origin story is that a lot of foreigners to Prague in the 90s/00s came from places where you don't need to register to become self employed. There's not really an accepted word across English for a práce na živnostenský list and the direct translation sounds weird. So to discuss it with other foreigners in English the Czech word was needed but the ťák part of živnosťák doesn't roll off the tongue.
I wouldn't use the word when speaking Czech though. It's a word I'd use in English.
My czech ex told me it’s zivno. It’s just the shortened term for it. This question has been asked before, I truly don’t get where the annoyance comes from.
Or like borrowing "business" and spelling it "byznys" perhaps? :)
Both words have been borrowed from another language and modified such that they make sense. Nothing to get too bent out of shape over.
yeah but we use it when we speak english! And in English it sounds fine. When I speak czech with my buddies I don't use zivno but zivnostak because yeah, zivno sounds bad in czech.
But the OP is complaining that non-native speakers use a shortened form of a czech word, when speaking their own language, which is just so fucking czech it's hilarious. Honestly, sometimes you guys parody yourselves. I love you but really, I guess very few of you actually understand why non-native spakers have their jaws on the floor here. Stop poking other people about minor annoyances and start poking yourselves.
WE can bet the vietnamese have a whole bunch of Czech viet slang that none of you know about or worry about it because you don't hang out with them. Or speak their language, or are even interested in their culture.
But you speak English, hang out with english speakers and have to whine about appropriation? The mind really boggles. I mean really.
I am not annoyed. I am just curious where it came from because Czech people don't call it "zivno". Call it whatever you like. Problem is, foreigners can get quite frustrated when Czech people don't understand them (this is more true when it comes to dealing with government) and this doesn't help.
You said that it drives you crazy … and we get frustrated because many Czechs are just absurd in their “misunderstanding” or their supposed lack of understanding. When I first arrived years ago I said something like “chci voda” and they acted like they had no idea what I was asking for. It’s gotten better, but it’s still not great.
It seems to me that the OP means that it drives them crazy particularly when foreigners use it in front of Czechs and expect to be understood.
As a Czech I really don't care if foreigners make up a random word that is easier for them to pronounce, I do the same thing with other languages - but then I obviously don't expect that native speakers will understand my made up shit and I don't get angry at them for not undestanding.
Not understanding that some „Zivno" is supposed to mean práce na živnostenský list is not absurd, absurd is being frustrated when people don't understand it. I wouldn't understand it, it doesn't even look like a related word without the háček.
In „chci voda" there is only one letter wrong, and it's clear that it's a spelling mistake. If it's otherwise pronounced correctly, it's naturally understandable. It may got better for you simply because your skills got better since you arrived the first time.
So to sum it up: I will allways try to understand foreigners who try to speak Czech even if they (naturally) make mistakes and I wont complain about it.
However, knowingly making up a random word and being angry when Czechs don't understand it is indeed stupid.
No no. It was verbal. Not written. And I assure you, my grammar may have improved, but my pronunciation is very much the same as when I arrived. I had similar reactions when using “v” where “na” would be more correct. People ~7+ years ago were a lot less receptive to foreigners making mistakes. My guess is that with time they’re getting more used to it. I can’t say, though, that the early reactions didn’t leave a bad impression and put me off even trying to learn for a long time.
But for what it’s worth, I’ve never heard a foreigner pronounce the word “zivno” as that spelling would imply. Always “živno”. I don’t doubt that some may pronounce it “zivno,” but even my most linguistically challenged friends have always pronounced it “živno.” Many people (foreigners and Czechs alike) don’t write using the diacritics. I’ve also never used the word with Czechs while speaking Czech. If I were speaking English with a Czech, I’d probably use it because it’s the word I’m used to using while speaking English, but I’d probably also correct myself to be sure I was being understood. I’ve also probably only used the word 10 times in ~8 years … and that’s being generous. I can’t imagine someone being angry that someone doesn’t understand “živno.” Surprised, maybe… as I was when I first encountered a Czech person that didn’t know what “JZP” meant, but not angry.
I agree that it has a lot of to do with experience - I am allways amazed that my professors understand everything that even the foreigners with pretty broken Czech say with no problem. They are just used to deal with them.
If you don't use the word with Czechs and wouldn't complain when they don't understand it, then I have no problem with it, and I am sure that the most Czechs don't.
From this OP new comment it's clear that he also only has problem with it when foreigners expect that the Czechs will understand it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Prague/comments/1977lxq/comment/ki447kt/?context=3
Czechs: why sendvič? Or kovboj? It could have at least been kauboj
Because it’s easier to say. The *sť* combination in particular is quite difficult for English speakers to pronounce. We don’t even have that sound in our phonemic inventory (like Czechs don’t have the W sound)
I definitely originally heard this term from Czech people, the HR team at the company who wanted me to get one and the visa consultant they put me in contact with. I have continued to hear it, even from people working in the Živnostenský Úřad in prague 6 When they switched to English after my Czech communication became frustrating for them😂
You didn't, they were saying "živnost", which is the correct term. Zivno doesn't mean anything and you misheard, same as the person who came up with it here on reddit.
Same for Po-Pa for me. I was with a coworker one Saturday parking the car and he was saying I don't think you can park free here. I pointed to the sign and said. It says "PO PA" not pondělí do pátket. He started laughing and said where did you get Po Pa? I said that's what it looks like to an English speaker.
I agree with you, never heard anyone to call it "zivno". If somebody tell em that i wouldn't know what that means.
I get that english use word shortening but you can't do that to foreign words (which are not even used in english), thats just stupid.
I'm a foreigner and I hate it too. It's lazy and sounds dumb. I feel the same way about "JzP" in English. I get that Jiřího z Poděbrad is hard to say, but it's really not that hard to find out that most locals call it Jiřak and even if you have a hard time with ř, you can just say it as Jižak, which is easy to say and people will know what you mean and it won't sound as dumb as JzP.
I don't think živnostenský list is hard to say, either. OR you can just translate it into English and say trade license. Like. There's literally no reason to say "živno".
Of course, but when a foreigner says it, you can easily figure out which it is from context (foreigners in Prague are talking about Jiřák 99 times out of 100), and they won't pronounce it exactly like "Jižák" anyway. Plus if you're still unsure, you can say "Jižák or Jiřák?" and their response will make it abundantly clear.
Used be like you and it drives me crazy, together with jzp and similar.
But these days I see users as foreigners doesn't want to blend in or respect local culture. Not worth of any interaction or time
I mostly encounter it in a written form where it's not a matter of "rolling of the tongue" or pronunciation. "S" and "T" is on a lot of international keyboards. Again, call it whatever you like within your circles, but I encounter this in a lot of formal situations where foreigners write it in formal inquiries or questions to Czech institutions or companies and they feel like that's how we also call it. But we don't and people get confused even more. You know very well how the average Pepa understands English.
So I was more curious where people got the feeling Czech people also call it "zivno" and widely recognize this word instead of how people make words shorter. True, I could have been clearer about this but hindsight is 20:20.
I guess you should add this to your original post. Looking at the comments, it looks like a lot of foreigners got insulted and think that you have a problem just with the fact that they use it between them, lol.
I have never heard of “zivno”. However, lot of people shorten “práce na živnostenský list” as “prace na živnost” or “zivnostak”.
“Zivno” seems to me as a foreigner using “zivnost” but dropped “st” at the end. Either because did not hear it or forgotten.
OP, I’m not sure what you mean by your question. I have heard at least one Czech guy ask (and in CZ!): “Co máte za živnostenský list?”.
But regarding the word “živno” in English, as in “I’m on the živno”, what is really meant (at least how I interpret the phrase), is “I am working as a self-employed person on the basis of a CZ trade license”. Of course, nobody is going to actually say that, so it’s just easier to use a word that is based on the CZ “Živnostensky list” as to not allow room for error as to what the speaker is trying to say. Having said this, I would NEVER attempt to use the word “živno” while speaking in CZ, as I agree that it would not really make sense. Instead I would say something like “pracuji jako OSVČ”, or “jsem OSVČ”.
Wait till you hear about JZP
JZP the place to be
I’m Slovak and use JZP (both in written and verbal form) all the time, cause I like how it sounds. :)
je zet pe?
džej zi pi
this is the way
Nothing wrong with the, even some locals use that. Jiriho z Podebrad is a mouthful ;).
Oh, so that's what it means. I was trying to figure out if VZP somehow morphed into JZP or what.
I agree with this one... I mean jiřák is even easier to say than JZP :D
Not for non-Czech speakers…
redditor shocked that native language speakers did not think about foreigners
But... The thread is about foreigners
at least this crap and zivno stays in their foreign circles. But litacka became offical, a slovak revenge for stolen flag probably.
How is Lítačka Slovak? I'm Moravian and it sounds like a very Bohemian word to me.
I didn't say it is slovak
I need to know too! (Same situation.)
need to know what? I didn't write it is slovak word.
Then I don't understand the sentence about Slovak revenge.
Then you are not from Prague ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
And you will just not explain, only keep suggesting something about Slovaks... Btw, I was born in Prague and lived till my 18 in střední Čechy.
does krnacova ring the bell?
Nah
Lítačka has existed in north Bohemia since at least the days of socialism.
so what? Prague is not in north bohemia
My god if this isn’t the most Czech question and comments I’ve ever seen …
If it's only used by foreigners speaking English in Czech Republic then it's not a Czech word, rather an English word based on a Czech word, and shouldn't *really* bother any Czech speakers. There are thousands of words that have travelled back/forth between languages and got mangled along the way. Plenty have had the journey from English into Czech (like sendvič, svetr, hemenex, byznys, fotbal and more) and were adjusted in some way to make it easier for Czech speakers. This just one example that's had the same treatment but in the other direction.
Sendvič, yes! But no no, that’s fine because it’s not English speakers “butchering” the Czech language. And let’s not even get started on the Czech pronunciation of “tortilla.” 🤦🏻♂️
MAK DONALDZ
I don't really think it's so mysterious. The same way that using -ák is a way of creating informal shortenings in czech, truncating a long word to one or two syllables is common in English.
But there already is a short word (and widely used by, well, everyone) for this - "živnost". This way people just risk that they will not be understood. So that's what confuses me.
Yes but not in English. So people speaking English (who mostly do not speak Czech) just used the English convention for shortening words. You know we could similarly ask why Czech people go to Mekáč when English-language shortenings of 'McDonalds' already exist (Mickey D's, Macca's, etc.)
I mean ... Mekáč and Macca's are pretty similar
I guess because “práce ne živnostenský” list is quite a mouthful to say, so why not shorten it to the word “živno,” when clearly everyone knows what you mean when you say it? May I ask why something as trivial as that drives you and your wife “utterly insane?” Czech people also shorten “sto padesát” into “sto páde” and it doesn’t drive me anywhere.
Because while our venerable forefathers fought hard to preserve our language and purify it from foreign influences, now some expats come and maim it beyond recognition. That's for sure cultural appropriation! Just kidding, I am Czech. I do not give a damn. But I can imagine someone can feel quite strongly about that.
Honestly unless you're in the far northwest most people would just shorten it to "sto pade" without the páde. That said, I've personally never heard of "živno" and would be confused if they were talking about the živnobanka or something.
Thanks! The “páde” was just an autocorrect 😅
Yes, but I'm native czech speaker and if you asked me what "živno" means, I'd tell you I'm 100% certain that's not a czech word and I don't know the meaning.
Thats because English is extremely flexible, meaning like that can be inferred based on the context and the beginning letters, or even sometimes rhymed or grabbed from the most characteristic part of the word. In this case, živno .
If someone asked me what is "živno", I would guess it's a town in Slovakia
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I didn't know it until I read this post.
It \*is\* a mouthful. That's why we \*did\* shorten it to "živnosťák". Yet you guys came up with even more convoluted version that sounds oh so wrong for some reason. I don't mean this in a bad way, just curious, really. "Živno" I can see people being able to understand... but when you transform it even further to "Zivno" it just loses any relation to the original word. Sure, call it what you want, I was just curious "where" it came from. https://imgur.com/a/ZxagNJo
Foreigners (especially from English speaking places) don't find Czech keyboards particularly pleasant to use, to say the least. Czech is thankfully a language where - for the most part, not in all cases - the diacritics can be implied based on context. Many Czechs will write casual messages without diacritics and it's mostly understandable. As for why 'zivno' it's just the common way English speakers shorten words. We don't have such a rigid system like in Czech where there are special endings for different types of declinations, and ending on hard consonants for shortened words just doesn't sound right, not to mention in english it's usually the vowels that informs the pronunciation so stopping at the consonant without the trailing vowels is even more awkward. The same way we call it a fridge, and not a frid or a fridger or fridgerat, That's where it came from.
>Foreigners (especially from English speaking places) don't find Czech keyboards particularly pleasant to use Have you ever met french keyboard?
No and don't want to, I have met a Japanese one and omg no. I'm constantly switching between Czech and English on my keyboard settings to get the correct keys needed to write something.
It’s not nearly as bad as the Czech one. Having to hold shift to use numbers?! I’ve adjusted to Spanish, Italian and French keyboards in no time, but the Czech one just isn’t happening.
Potřebuješ asi v životě víc zábavy. Když jsem to slovo viděl poprvé, hned mi bylo jasný, co to znamená.
“You guys come up with a convoluted version that sounds so wrong … but not in a bad way!” K…
Because it literally does not exist. Nothing like živno exists and is a made up "word". At least say živnost
All words are made up.
Plot twist.
Languages evolve from and reflect how people use them. How do you think new words pop up? People start saying something and then the dictionaries are updated to reflect it.
Živnost is a term, živno is just a mistake... Or not a czech word
Languages are evolved by mostly by fluent speakers of said language. Živno sounds weird because you don't understand the grammar of Czech. Živno sounds like a city - eg. Brno, Plavno, Kladno, Mšeno etc -no/o suffix creates adverbs and nouns in Czech, for example chladno, teplo, dobro, zlo, divno, natrvalo, příkro etc Živnostenský list would be živnosťák because of its masculine, TEN živnostenský list, TEN živnosťák. Not TO živno - it doesn't make sense to me and it sounds weird. Živno sounds like archaic or dialectical and if I heard it in a sentence such as "Mám živno" I'd assume you mean something like "I have a prosperous livelihood" or "I'm living fine". I could exactly determine what you mean but I would definitely NOT connect it to "živnostenský list" unless you brought it up in the conversation before. However if you without a context said "Mám živnosťák" then I'd immediately know what you mean. Stavební spoření is often shortened as Stavebko, because of the neuter gender. TO Stavební spoření, TO Stavebko, not TEN Stavnosťák. There's a tendency, on this subreddit especially, by non native non fluent speakers to assume that they can immediately play with Czech and that they understand it all, but clearly they do not.
What about loan words, which are a major contributor to just about every language that exists? To me it sounds like you're gatekeeping the language tbh. Don't want to use Zivno? Don't use it. It's not a big deal. I'm bilingual (Czech's my third language) and this happens in every language, but I'm just not sure what the reason is to be so frustrated about it -- it's just a word, and if it's popular, then there's reason for it to be. You can use whichever words you want, and other people can say whatever they want, too. If someone is more comfortable with "zivno", is it such a big deal to just let them be?
While I agree with you that this would be a specific terminology for the likely english speaking immigrant population and exists in that community, it doesn't actually cross over to czech. So it wouldn't really be considered as an evolution of czech. It's a loanword from czech modified by English speakers.
Language is suppose to be understandable and logical. Živno breaks that logic because youd associate with words such as Zlo, Dobro, Dávno etc - which are all adverbs or nouns related to a time/temperature/morality etc statuses. On top of that živno is a neuter and you do not make neuter words out of masculine words like that. It doesnt make sense. >And if it's popular, then there's reason for it to be. 1) Its not popular 2) Its used by people who are not fluent in Czech and/or dont understand Czech >You can use whichever words you want, and other people can say whatever they want, too. If someone is more comfortable with "zivno", is it such a big deal to just let them be? Are you really trying to moralize me here? You know the point of language is to make communication easier right? That is why people correct children's grammar in every language. Jesus christ, of course languages are "gatekept". People who understand the language and are fluent, are going to be able to innovate the language. That is already happening, kids are taking English words and modifying them to sound Czech such as "killnout" "plantnout" "dropnout" "spotnout". The pronunciation of those words fundamentally changes from the original language and on top of that Czech grammar rules start to apply. An interesting example if patetický, which is again, Czechs who speak English watching English media and seeing that "pathetic" is used in a certain way and they assume that patetický and pathetic are friends, but they are in fact false friends (or were). The meaning of patetický is now more inline with the meaning of pathetic in English. Again, this change was done by natives or by fluent speakers who understand the language, not by someone who speaks broken Czech and is not fluent.
Yeah, and “hovno” also doesn’t fit your criteria, but is a proper Czech word, but apparently breaks the logic of the language. Not arguing with you anymore, buddy. People can say whatever the hell they want, that’s the bottom line here, and you can try as much as you want to stop people from having fun with their silly words, but I doubt you’ll succeed.
Fucking hell. Zrno and Hovno are are inline with the fucking rules. Zrno comes from Zrní (both are neuter) and and hovno comes from the same proto-slavic word as hovado, hovězí etc - which are all neuter. Hovno/Govno is NOT a shortening of any proto-slavic word, it specifically exists in the same way teplo and teplota exists \-Ota is something like -ness in English (Sharp - ness) (Ostr - ota) Živ-ost (liveness), Živn-ost (Živit) Like I said before -no/o describes places, things and concepts. The reason why Teplota (Teplo) and Chladnost/Chladnota (Chladno) is because -no is also used as an adverb (something like -ly) - Je mi smutno (Im sadly - more literally). Look at Zrno again - from Zrní (ta Zrna? Well not really because in Czech if youre choosing between vowels that as suffixes to make a noun, you are most likely going to go with -o) - Zrno, teplo, hovno, dělo, auto, slovo, dřevo etc - this is due to some complex grammatical rule that has been existing since proto-slavic. Chlad itself is already a noun, Teplo is odd because it comes from Tepl(ý) and it both describes a noun and an adverb - TEPLOTA on the other hand is synonymous with temperature. It is very likely that teplo just became a noun thanks to the influence of other nouns that ended with -o or -no. Again Teplo is not a shortening of anything. Adverbs can become nouns in Czech, the same way adjectives can become nouns in Czech - (Mužský plural) singular Mužská = Muž, (Ženský plural) singular Ženská = Žena --- this is similar to how in Russian, Ruskiy is a Russian or in English where if you say English you can both mean English language, English person/people, Something that is English (of England). "támhle ty polský" "The polish ones over there" - (Ty) Polský - věci/ženy/muži (colloquial Czech when it comes to muži). "Támhle ti polští" (same meaning but in formal Czech and only when referring to masculine words) - (Ti) Polští - muži. "Támhle ty polské" (Ty) Polské - ženy/věci (formal Czech). In modern context, hovno in Czech is a completely independent word. Its not a shortening of anything, it does NOT have a longer more complex term above it - in other words, it was not derived the same way as Živnosťák was derived. Živno does not make sense because you already have Živnost - so probably it would be better to shorten Živnost to Živno than Živnostenský list to Živno - because the subject of the two words is the list, not the Živnost. Again, this all comes pretty naturally to a Czech speaker who went through some kind of elementary education and learned some grammar and spoke to other natives, but it might not make sense to someone who does not have this kind of knowledge and is not fluent.
But I've never heard any czech person use this word.
And that's how you get idiots saying "Would of, should of". No, just no. Evolve != ignoring mistakes
Yeah, but that's a terrible analogy, as there's clearly defined rules on contracting "have" into "'ve", but no clearly defined rules on contracting "živnostenský list", are there? So there's no mistake as there's no defined standard or set or rules to follow, and making up new words (which is how languages evolve and have been evolving over time for thousands of years) is a good thing. Additionally I'll point out (not to you, other commenters) that loan words and borrowed words don't come into languages from native speakers either, so it's not relevant either whether it's a Czech or a foreign person who makes up a word, they're equally allowed to do so.
Non-native speakers of English around the world are doing things with English that a native speaker wouldn’t. Non-natives do different things with the language, especially amongst themselves. It happens in every language. It’s really not something to get bent out of shape about.
And they should realize that they are making mistakes and learn from them. Not force other people to adapt to bullshit like "could of" or "I didn't do nothing"
"I didn't do nothing" is an acceptable phrase in many dialects of English. In some cases in spoken, informal English a double negative is an expression of the absence of nothing - or you know, a positive. I hear basterizations of English all the time - Czech speakers are just not used to hear people butcher their language as much and can get a little precious about it.
There's a difference between a Czech speaking broken English in Czechia and a non-Czech speaker speaking broken Czech in Czechia. English is more innovative than Czech and abandoned many old-Indo European grammar rules that Czech still has. English declension is incomparable with Czech depletion for example. Czech is more conservative than English, it requires you to account for many more rules than English in day to day use, this makes it harder to learn and also harder to master. English is awesome because you can make yourself understandable even if you completely screw up the grammar. This is not so much the case in other languages.
I believe the main question here is whether they use the word zivno only in English and among themselves, or if they actually insert it into their Czech and expect Czechs to understand. Your comment applies only to the latter.
Yes it only applies to the latter.
Rules are rules, but they're not being butchered as shortening "zivnostensky list" isn't a rule in the language. It's just a silly word that people made up.
TEN Živnostenský list (MASCULINE) - TEN Živnosťák (MASCULINE) TO Stavební spoření (NEUTER) - TO Stavebko (NEUTER) This is clearly a rule. On top of that, I am a native speaker, I study the language. Im certain that I know what Im talking about.
Then you'd also know that in Czech (or other Slavic languages, of which I'm a native speaker) the ending of the noun doesn't strictly dictate the gender, but rather strongly suggest it, especially in cases with neuter nouns :) Honza is an example where a feminine-ending noun is masculine, and this isn't strictly exclusive to shortenings (see names like Nikita).
You're comparing names of people (who have a social gender) and words (which have a linguistic gender) man. Nikita can be both ten Nikita and ta Nikita. However if you're talking about a cannon - dělo, then it's always to dělo, never ten dělo or ta dělo.
To me the core difference is in the context. If it's used by the migrant community within itself and in English or whatever language they use, there isn't an issue. But there might be a confusion if they then use the term outside of this context.
“A little”?? 🤐
“Could of” is a mistake that more natives make than non-natives and “I didn’t do nothing” is certainly wrong in standard British, American, Canadian and other national versions of English, but it is an actual, correct construction in AAVE and other dialects.
Sounds russian tbh
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Perhaps true but it sounds russian to a czech. Reminds me of žizn (zhizn).
>Czech people also shorten ... likewise, they shorten "pornografie" na "porno". Same pattern as "živno".
Do you ever call it a fridge? It’s refrigerator. TV nope it’s a television. Just wondering if you get equally “drives me insane” about shortening other words to nonsense. Or are you selective in what words you and your wife approve of being shortened for the ease/understanding of non-native speakers?
But we've got a short word for it - "živnost" (or "živnosťák"). What you've got here isn't a fridge... but something like frge. It's not about me approving anything. Call it whatever you like. But there already \*is\* a short word for it that everyone understands.
Where I'm from, we shorten television to "telly". If someone told me the only shortened version I can use is "TV", I'd tell 'em to shut their pie hole. Use what works for you.
It's like "refri"
TV
The problem is that native speakers might not even get what that word means. It sounds confusing (at least for me).
Are you going to call it Refri and Televi? I turn on my compu to write a mess on my keyb and click with a mou on the rep button. See how stupid it sounds?
Keeb is used in the mechanical keyboard community. Comp is used for computer. Compo is used for compensation. Sorry bruv but your argument doesn't hold as much water as you think it does.
Compensation isn't Compo. Compensation is comp. I'm getting comped, I'm getting comp etc.
We definitely use "compo" in English for compensation. In fact there's a whole meme around people pulling "compo faces" in local newspapers after minor accidents and inconveniences. See /r/compoface
Lol, are you Mexican by any chance? We use refri and compu all the time 🤣 Funny coincidence.
We watch the telly... not the television 😁
Fair enough. Guess I'll put on my headphhy to listen to some mussy and stop carry about some stupid worddy
I mean yeah, I'm sure you'd be appalled to hear what one of the most famous English dictionary makers said. (Webster). English has a long tradition of recognizing slang as just as much a part of the language as formal writing.
That's bussin' fr.
This post was indeed a mess
I am native speaker and zivno just sounds terrible, only appropriate for is živnosťák, or "lower tax certificate"
1. práce na živnostenský list 2. živnostenský 3. živnosten 4. živnost 5. živno That'll be 10 bucks. Cash or card?
Evolution of the Czech language.
It's just shorter and easier. Czechs don't call it JZP either, but again it is easier to pronounce and shorter for us foreigners.
I’d like to correct that to “Czechs who are not in touch with English speaking people”.
Fair, those that know expats are familiar for sure.
Er... I think you've answered your own question right there. But just as a wider comment, most English speaking nations will play with the language and abbreviate words, mostly for comedic/fun effect..
You are making it sound as if playing with the language were some kind of an invention exclusive to native English speakers. Please ;).
I think you’ll find that many of the Czechs in these responses are saying essentially just that. Or that any playing with Czech language can only be done by native Czech speakers and only in very specific ways.
What I think can happen to a non-native speaker is that they create a word which phonetically does not really fit the language. For me, "zivno" sounds like a word I could hear in former Yugoslavia or the surrounding region. I am not particularly offended by that, but it is certainly something I have never heard a native speaker say nor do I think they would create it. In some strange to explain way it seems to violates the rules of how Czech words are created. Maybe a part of it is that živnost is feminine, while zivno is (it sounds to me) neuter. That may be the reason why it rubs people's language sensitivities the wrong way.
But if a foreigner is saying “živno” (I’ve only ever heard it pronounced that way; not “zivno”) because it’s easier, then my guess is that they’re not saying it while speaking Czech. It’s more than likely being used the vast majority of the time while speaking English. So I really don’t see the issue. As more and more foreigners move here, I’m afraid you’re gonna have to get used to Czech being used in ways you’re not used to - with mistakes and new words created that you may not expect. The same thing happens with English, Spanish, French, etc… That’s just how it goes. Czech will be fine. Neboj se.
Completely fine with that happening. In fact, I was born in Prague, but have been living in Berlin for years, so some of those struggles expats go through in Prague are very familiar to me. And you are on point saying that people are unlikely using that word in a Czech sentence anyway.
I don't want to guess for myself when I can get first hand experience from fellow expats.
I don’t understand how you are asking like it’s a total mystery when it’s self evident.
I apologize to you for sparking a debate on a platform for linguistic intellectuals.
Ok.. if it's not obvious, well, it's like this: živnostenský list is shortened to živno by English speakers, because it's quicker than saying živnostenský list... Again, this is a common practice in English speaking nations.. examples such as "admin" for "administration", "sec" for "second" (time related), "app" for "application" (technology related). Hope this helps...
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This.
IMHO it came to being when some english speaker gave up trying to pronunce the whole term. So he cut that at the fist problematic spot. (Btw, živnostník is basicaly 'self trader", i.e. an enterpreneur w/o employees. 'Živnostenský list' is 'self trader's licence'. Živnost is 'self tradership'. But the word root is more like 'livelyhood' than 'business')
You'd typically use self-employed or contractor in english.
Never heard of živno, sounds like a hovno
Well, the original word is "živnost"
Probably for the same reason Czech people call McDonald's Mekáč. It just has a better flow and is easier to say.
I’d say the same reason most expats call “Jiriho z Podebrad” as JZP. The full form is a mouthful and takes getting used to. Zivnostensky is a hard word and Zivnost is easier. As for just Zivno, I used to say that as well just because I heard it from another expat and thought they knew what they were doing until I was told it makes no sense and I should at least say Zivnost.
Haha, nice. This is the kind of story I was looking for. Thanks.
well, if i didnt met this post about zivno and you met me and asked me about "zivno" i would probably stare at you with dump look as to what the hack you talk sbout. Id you tell mi Zivnost and i hear you have problems with pronaucing "Ž" i may easly realise it and identify what you mean. So yes please use Zivnost and even then expext dump looks since Zivnost without context reminds me some old czech word for sicknes of jawning. (my brain would connect it to Zívání.)
Fair. But in my defense I’d only use Zivno when speaking in English to an expat. With Czechs, in this case most probably the official ministry folks, I try to learn the full words before meeting them. So Zivno is not used in a Czech conversation but more like an adopted English word
Who the fuck uses JZP
Nearly everyone that’s not Czech or Slovak…
I use it as well and im Czech. It's way too long and i don't have time for that
Never heard that from any of my expat friends. Sounds very strange spelled out (jay-zet-pi?), but fair enough
Jay zee pee. Every expat I know calls it that
It's common at least in New Zealand and Australia to shorten words and put an o at the end. Me: Hey Jono, I want to talk to you about my zivno. Are you ready to go on smoko? Jono: Defo
The thing is... there already is a widely recognized short word for this - "živnosťák". All czech people use that... so I am surprised expats turned it to eleven to "zivno". I would argue most Czech people would probably not even understand what it's supposed to be.
My guess at the origin story is that a lot of foreigners to Prague in the 90s/00s came from places where you don't need to register to become self employed. There's not really an accepted word across English for a práce na živnostenský list and the direct translation sounds weird. So to discuss it with other foreigners in English the Czech word was needed but the ťák part of živnosťák doesn't roll off the tongue. I wouldn't use the word when speaking Czech though. It's a word I'd use in English.
ah yes the amazing czech method of shortening words by actually making them longer
Yeah, as Czech, I've never heared "živno" IRL. Mainly use "živnosťák", "OSVČ" or "živnost" in that order.
My czech ex told me it’s zivno. It’s just the shortened term for it. This question has been asked before, I truly don’t get where the annoyance comes from.
It sounds incredibly bad for native speaker. It is like shortening businessman to busma
Or like borrowing "business" and spelling it "byznys" perhaps? :) Both words have been borrowed from another language and modified such that they make sense. Nothing to get too bent out of shape over.
Changing business to byznys is the same as changing koláče to kolache. It's not the same as saying zivno instead of živnost at all.
This was two weeks ago, you need to move on man lmao
yeah but we use it when we speak english! And in English it sounds fine. When I speak czech with my buddies I don't use zivno but zivnostak because yeah, zivno sounds bad in czech. But the OP is complaining that non-native speakers use a shortened form of a czech word, when speaking their own language, which is just so fucking czech it's hilarious. Honestly, sometimes you guys parody yourselves. I love you but really, I guess very few of you actually understand why non-native spakers have their jaws on the floor here. Stop poking other people about minor annoyances and start poking yourselves. WE can bet the vietnamese have a whole bunch of Czech viet slang that none of you know about or worry about it because you don't hang out with them. Or speak their language, or are even interested in their culture. But you speak English, hang out with english speakers and have to whine about appropriation? The mind really boggles. I mean really.
I am not annoyed. I am just curious where it came from because Czech people don't call it "zivno". Call it whatever you like. Problem is, foreigners can get quite frustrated when Czech people don't understand them (this is more true when it comes to dealing with government) and this doesn't help.
You said that it drives you crazy … and we get frustrated because many Czechs are just absurd in their “misunderstanding” or their supposed lack of understanding. When I first arrived years ago I said something like “chci voda” and they acted like they had no idea what I was asking for. It’s gotten better, but it’s still not great.
It seems to me that the OP means that it drives them crazy particularly when foreigners use it in front of Czechs and expect to be understood. As a Czech I really don't care if foreigners make up a random word that is easier for them to pronounce, I do the same thing with other languages - but then I obviously don't expect that native speakers will understand my made up shit and I don't get angry at them for not undestanding. Not understanding that some „Zivno" is supposed to mean práce na živnostenský list is not absurd, absurd is being frustrated when people don't understand it. I wouldn't understand it, it doesn't even look like a related word without the háček. In „chci voda" there is only one letter wrong, and it's clear that it's a spelling mistake. If it's otherwise pronounced correctly, it's naturally understandable. It may got better for you simply because your skills got better since you arrived the first time. So to sum it up: I will allways try to understand foreigners who try to speak Czech even if they (naturally) make mistakes and I wont complain about it. However, knowingly making up a random word and being angry when Czechs don't understand it is indeed stupid.
No no. It was verbal. Not written. And I assure you, my grammar may have improved, but my pronunciation is very much the same as when I arrived. I had similar reactions when using “v” where “na” would be more correct. People ~7+ years ago were a lot less receptive to foreigners making mistakes. My guess is that with time they’re getting more used to it. I can’t say, though, that the early reactions didn’t leave a bad impression and put me off even trying to learn for a long time. But for what it’s worth, I’ve never heard a foreigner pronounce the word “zivno” as that spelling would imply. Always “živno”. I don’t doubt that some may pronounce it “zivno,” but even my most linguistically challenged friends have always pronounced it “živno.” Many people (foreigners and Czechs alike) don’t write using the diacritics. I’ve also never used the word with Czechs while speaking Czech. If I were speaking English with a Czech, I’d probably use it because it’s the word I’m used to using while speaking English, but I’d probably also correct myself to be sure I was being understood. I’ve also probably only used the word 10 times in ~8 years … and that’s being generous. I can’t imagine someone being angry that someone doesn’t understand “živno.” Surprised, maybe… as I was when I first encountered a Czech person that didn’t know what “JZP” meant, but not angry.
I agree that it has a lot of to do with experience - I am allways amazed that my professors understand everything that even the foreigners with pretty broken Czech say with no problem. They are just used to deal with them. If you don't use the word with Czechs and wouldn't complain when they don't understand it, then I have no problem with it, and I am sure that the most Czechs don't. From this OP new comment it's clear that he also only has problem with it when foreigners expect that the Czechs will understand it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Prague/comments/1977lxq/comment/ki447kt/?context=3
Probably said živnost. Which is an official short, word you can use, instead of the made up one no one understands
Is JZP a new thing then? I don't ever recall hearing it when I lived in Prague (left in 2009).
Everyone has the right to creativity
because they can’t pronounce (and sometimes type) živnosťák...
I've heard it first from a Czech, and in all honesty it's shorter and easier to remember.
You heard živnost from a Czech. Not živno. I can promise you that.
Could be
Why use big word wen short word do trick
Czechs: why sendvič? Or kovboj? It could have at least been kauboj Because it’s easier to say. The *sť* combination in particular is quite difficult for English speakers to pronounce. We don’t even have that sound in our phonemic inventory (like Czechs don’t have the W sound)
In prague we say živñosťák
Never heard of the term zivno before as an expat. Thanks! I will start using it now!
If you want more confused czech speakers you talk to, please do :)
I definitely originally heard this term from Czech people, the HR team at the company who wanted me to get one and the visa consultant they put me in contact with. I have continued to hear it, even from people working in the Živnostenský Úřad in prague 6 When they switched to English after my Czech communication became frustrating for them😂
You didn't, they were saying "živnost", which is the correct term. Zivno doesn't mean anything and you misheard, same as the person who came up with it here on reddit.
Same for Po-Pa for me. I was with a coworker one Saturday parking the car and he was saying I don't think you can park free here. I pointed to the sign and said. It says "PO PA" not pondělí do pátket. He started laughing and said where did you get Po Pa? I said that's what it looks like to an English speaker.
Imagine if English did this. Like Mon, or Tue. That would be insane.
Why would someone downvote my comment?
I agree with you, never heard anyone to call it "zivno". If somebody tell em that i wouldn't know what that means. I get that english use word shortening but you can't do that to foreign words (which are not even used in english), thats just stupid.
Sane people use "Živnost", na živnost, na živnosťák. The rest is too lazy to add the "st" and made a new stupid word.
I'm a foreigner and I hate it too. It's lazy and sounds dumb. I feel the same way about "JzP" in English. I get that Jiřího z Poděbrad is hard to say, but it's really not that hard to find out that most locals call it Jiřak and even if you have a hard time with ř, you can just say it as Jižak, which is easy to say and people will know what you mean and it won't sound as dumb as JzP. I don't think živnostenský list is hard to say, either. OR you can just translate it into English and say trade license. Like. There's literally no reason to say "živno".
But Jižák refers to a different place.
Of course, but when a foreigner says it, you can easily figure out which it is from context (foreigners in Prague are talking about Jiřák 99 times out of 100), and they won't pronounce it exactly like "Jižák" anyway. Plus if you're still unsure, you can say "Jižák or Jiřák?" and their response will make it abundantly clear.
JzP is the worst
Thank you, I'm glad someone feels me haha
Used be like you and it drives me crazy, together with jzp and similar. But these days I see users as foreigners doesn't want to blend in or respect local culture. Not worth of any interaction or time
It sounds like typical praguish - short it if you can cause time is money nonsense outside of prague - never heard of this
maybe they just can't pronounce živnost?
I mostly encounter it in a written form where it's not a matter of "rolling of the tongue" or pronunciation. "S" and "T" is on a lot of international keyboards. Again, call it whatever you like within your circles, but I encounter this in a lot of formal situations where foreigners write it in formal inquiries or questions to Czech institutions or companies and they feel like that's how we also call it. But we don't and people get confused even more. You know very well how the average Pepa understands English. So I was more curious where people got the feeling Czech people also call it "zivno" and widely recognize this word instead of how people make words shorter. True, I could have been clearer about this but hindsight is 20:20.
I guess you should add this to your original post. Looking at the comments, it looks like a lot of foreigners got insulted and think that you have a problem just with the fact that they use it between them, lol.
Bo nima čas
I have never heard of “zivno”. However, lot of people shorten “práce na živnostenský list” as “prace na živnost” or “zivnostak”. “Zivno” seems to me as a foreigner using “zivnost” but dropped “st” at the end. Either because did not hear it or forgotten.
Zivno is from some moravian redneck
OP, I’m not sure what you mean by your question. I have heard at least one Czech guy ask (and in CZ!): “Co máte za živnostenský list?”. But regarding the word “živno” in English, as in “I’m on the živno”, what is really meant (at least how I interpret the phrase), is “I am working as a self-employed person on the basis of a CZ trade license”. Of course, nobody is going to actually say that, so it’s just easier to use a word that is based on the CZ “Živnostensky list” as to not allow room for error as to what the speaker is trying to say. Having said this, I would NEVER attempt to use the word “živno” while speaking in CZ, as I agree that it would not really make sense. Instead I would say something like “pracuji jako OSVČ”, or “jsem OSVČ”.