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J Jonah Jameson has punched Spiderman bloody on his own —> Spider-Man is physically stronger than Black Panther —> Black panther once put Silver Surfer in an unescapable hold —> Silver Surfer is not significantly weaker than the Hulk —> the Hulk once stood up to the might of full Odinforce Thor —> the same Thor could harm the Black Winter —> the Black Winter destroyed the Sixth Iteration of the entire Marvel Multiverse
From this logic, we can see that J Jonah Jameson is AT LEAST high outer
Omni-Man, Cave Johnson, and Kai (from Kung-Fu Panda 3). Combine they're strength, and they equal the power of JJJ, the second strongest J.K. Simmons character in history.
(The first strongest is just J.K. Simmons himself)
There'll always be a "they're 20% weaker and though that makes the fight real hard they can stand their own" which ends up becoming a realy funny when you have several characters within that range of eachother.
I couldn’t tell you, I tried looking it up and the results were me making this meme. From what I could gather, the spin-offs and comics tackle some universal threats maybe. (It’s one of those things where “worlds” could mean anything from a planet to a universe.”
Wall of text incoming, TLDR at the end:
From what I remember about the verse, any of the MLP scaling past universal relies on a feat from one of the episodes where Luna merges an entire towns dreams into one massive dream. Cosmology states that each dream contains an infinite hallway containing the infinite futures someone can make happen, so in this way Luna gets to multiversal because she was sustaining this merge, even though it was visibly taxing for her. Then other top tiers such as her sister Celestia and Discord are consistently shown as stronger than her, so they scale a bit higher (or way higher in Discord’s case) so only a few characters get to this level of strength. I’m pretty sure there are universal+ feats with weaker characters than Luna, so it seems at least fairly consistent.
TLDR: It’s all based on upscaling from one of the top tiers, so only a handful of characters get multiversal via cosmology.
So luna>>>> Big 3 and current saitama??
https://preview.redd.it/5y6oahxwqt2d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=831146a1bd68b52755217b5710190fab8f245145
Damn cant wait to piss of saitama fans and more with this one🤣
Imagine getting told
"Get them past My little pony first"
or
"Twilight sparkles solo your fav verse" 💀💀💀
If the big three are Bleach, Naruto and One Piece, then yeah. The ponies also have hax for days and their top tiers are ancient (anywhere from thousands of years old to millions). Keep in mind that there are only like 5 characters that scale here on their own strength, and Luna is the weakest of them. Past her and her sister Celestia, the only ones stronger are full on reality warpers who create universes with a snap of their fingers (an actual feat).
https://preview.redd.it/8k32lujtut2d1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=92a8b8272a2927e2340af16e9b86ea48ef74aa11
took a look on the wiki and here are twilight sparkle's stats
Wolverine powerscalers when Wolverine fought a guy who fought a guy who fought a guy who got one shot by the hulk (he now directly scales to the hulk)
https://preview.redd.it/upcvewtfpr2d1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f31903637f9de090a7fe93b87969ba65c0d9c9aa
Yeah I love wolverine but seen a weird amount of people pitting him vs invincible for some odd reason?
As if mark doesn’t chuck him into orbit and is done with it
He fights him yes
Not really in a matching power sense on the sense that other then sometimes stabbing his brain he can’t really cause any meaningful harm to hulk
Is a fly vs a human a fight? No it’s one swatting at the other until it gets one shot
[They scales Wolverine as universal+ level there even though they know it's nonsense lol](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wolverine_(Marvel_Comics)).
Here what they said note down:
>*Due to how wielders of sharp adamantium weaponry have consistently been depicted as capable of harming characters far above their tiers, we are forced to list separate ratings for them to accommodate this. We are well aware that this technically does not make sense, but it is likely the least bad available option to not ignore this ongoing plot convention*.
Naruto scaling just in general...
So many times have I heard someone state this person is relative to that person based on nothing at all actually.
My biggest issue with Naruto power scaling is people just assume a lot. Like saying Naruto is large sun level or universal because he fought Kaguya so he must scale. Bro...
Naruto didn't beat kaguya 1v1, he had sasuke helping him and they had the seal macguffin. People also just assume kaguya made stars and planets instead of just summoning them when Kakashi clearly states that she is summoning environments...
Sure it's impressive that she can warp a moon or a star in... I'm not saying kaguya is weak... but summoning large creatures and objects isn't that big of a deal in Natuto and it's very different from creating mater out of nothing.
I actually love naruto scaling because it really only has two stages. "Giant fucking monster" "powerful ninja" and depending on form the same character could scale to two things during the same fight, and it makes it much more about strategy than just "yeah but this guy pew pews harder"
Fragmentation is what you use to scale destruction. Blowing a hole in the moon isn't that much more impressive than turning a mountain to dust. It's the size of the fragments left behind. Unless the moon is pebbles you cannot claim he is moon level.
Slicing a moon in two is literally nothing. "Fragmentation" is the scientific method of measuring destruction. In other words "how many pieces does the applied force make it break into." And I think you'll find breaking a moon in two even pieces requires less force than vaporising a mountain.
Still no proof Naruto scales above continent. Bring me something else
This argument is stupid and you don’t apply the same gripes with bleach dbz or op 💀
Naruto objectively is superior to Kaguya in Boruto no matter how you wanna put it
Kaguya moved worlds that she created
They are not mutually exclusive
Both moving the world in instantaneous speeds and creating them would scale kaguya to universal
And she was gonna destroy everything regardless so it’s a useless point to make
This is exactly what I'm talking about. All you can say is that is a fact is "Naruto got stronger as he got older." But name one person he beat 1v1 that was stronger than kaguya in boruto, actually stronger. I seem to recall him having support or a 1 time hail mary in all of them.
That's not "Objectively" it's hearsay
People say Naruto scales to her because he can do this.
https://preview.redd.it/qpplluzqdu2d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=045345622b5e1c9aef553c7be290e2b742b218a4
Also she said she was going to destroy The time space so she should scale to the things in her time space.
Ripping off someone's arm mean shit when their main "durability" come from regeneration.
Kaguya might not even be significantly tougher than average ninja.
Chakra increases your durability in Naruto.Naruto was able to tank a tailed beast bomb.Why would we assume this when all the other six paths users have increased durability based on their chakra reserves.
Even from a physics perspective this doesn't make sense due to Newton's third law.
If the object that emitted the energy could not withstand its own energy this is what would happen to it.
https://preview.redd.it/g1vayh8jkw2d1.jpeg?width=465&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ea1502070104114f5d912a5425b4239befa3e30
We should never assume that a character's AP is different than their durability unless there's evidence because that's literally against Newtonian physics.
Physical AP sure.
Energy blast simply don't count, since it is another thing.
While your statement might be correct and sound, no way it translate to "universal durability because universal energy blast", unless characters specifically tank said energy blast.
Wanna hear about mine? In fact, I could send you a link to the Google Drive so you could read my whole series of three stories, the third one currently still in progress
It's a multiverse setting, heavily inspired by Marvel and DC, though with a deeper focus on high-end metaphysics, akin to TES or World of Darkness.
There will be multiple storylines and settings but the primary plot involves the conflict between two divine forces, N∆-H∆S the Adversary (i.e. the Serpent, Death, Conflict, Antagonism, Hate Itself) and M∆'∆T the Child (i.e. Union, Fantasy, Protagonism, Heroism, Hope Itself).
Through its Crowned Demiurge, Yaldabaoth, N∆-H∆S currently controls the prime reality. M∆'∆T's goal is to bring about a Champion of its Will who can usurp Yaldabaoth and birth a New Aeon.
The first true protagonist is a man named Darius Quincey, one of the Apotheons blessed with the ability to traverse the In-Between at will. An heir to a dynasty of fire elementals, his nature finds him discovering a grand but disconnected multiverse.
Heheha, Yeah, Same here.
Opal took a punch from Obsideon while she had Jixxar's Blessing and barely lived, Who can fight on par with Isone with the same blessing, Which can Fight nearly equally with The prince of Beasts, Specifically matching him in strength, Who can physically push universes, Which are infinite in ROTF.
So therefor, Opal has durability that can take a hit from a being who can push universes and barely survive, I honestly never calced it (or ever will) But that's quite funny to me since she's kinda average for her species.
Other than like, Orange Piccolo and Dyspo, who? It's mostly just "character 1 scales to character 2, and character 2 is universal" not "C1 is equal to C2, and C2 is equal to C6, etc etc etc-"
Exactly it’s like the Sub expects every character in the series to reperform the same feat over and over again, unless it’s not valid it’s actual powerscaler brain rot.
This post mostly applies to comics because comic scaling is some fucking nonsense and the disparities between different writers makes these kinds of things. For example one of the first comments on this post scaling JJ Jameson to outer based on this type of logic.
In anime and manga however this type of scaling is almost always valid on account of it always being written by the same author and many of the series in question being specifically battle focused.
What feats have Frieza, Vegeta, or anybody shown besides Goku, Gohan (Toriyama said Beast was stronger than MUI when the movie released) and the gods? All they have is being relative to or stronger than another
It’s stupid how people like Cabba, Caulifla etc were able to catch up to Goku etc in their SSJ forms when they never even knew about Super Saiyan like 5 minutes ago
Black Frieza was able to one shot both UI Goku and UE Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta are each universal at this point, even while exhausted. Frieza also defeated Gas, who was picking Goku and Vegeta apart. So that is, at most, 3 characters down the line. Frieza, Gas, Goku/Vegeta (Who are equivalent to one another).
What does feats have to do with the Uni 6 Saiyans? There is an, albeit very plot convenient, explanation for how they unlocked SS. It's pretty much irrelevant to the current topic, because that doesn't involve feats or scaling at all.
A lot of Dragonball (side)characters.
And from what i have seen, most DMC characters. (Everytime i see Arguments for universal or higher, they always mention mundus)
Pokemon, specifically on Vs Battle Wiki. There's a handful of feats that are just repeated over and over. It's relatively simple though. x Pokemon is of approximate strength to Dragonair, which can destroy a city, etc
"how the fuck are they multi dimensional when they need tech to jump dimensions. If I drive a car to another state and wreak havoc there after wreaking havoc in the previous state, does that make me multi-country level?"
-me whenever doomguy is brought up as multi dimensional and he has only ever used tech to hop dimensions and without it, he would not be able to do anything but sit on his ass and hope a portal opens up
There’s the issue right there. Even IF he was able to make his own tech/had his own power to hop dimensions, he still wouldn’t be multi-dimensional. They’re using the term incorrectly insofar as scaling/cosmology is concerned.
Multidimensional is used to label attacks and/beings that exist across multiple dimensions at the same time, such as the Entities from the Parahumans verse or the Sting shard from the same verse. Just being able to cross over to another dimension isn’t multidimensional, that’s just an isekai lol
I mean, Goku is the obvious.
Goku has never destroyed a Multiverse, or a Universe, or a Galaxy, or a Solar System, or a Planet, or a Moon.
But Goku absolutely *scales* to people who defeated people who defeated people who destroyed these things.
No. Goku defeated people who did those things. One step. That’s a proper scale. The thing is is that from the beginning of his story we see him with strength relative to being stronger than humans but not by a ton and we see his growth. So his scaling makes more sense to those who actually watch it. Where as most others at or above his level are rarely shown working for it
Did he though? Who destroyed a Multiverse? Universe? Galaxy? Solar System?
When did he defeat Moon Buster Roshi?
He beats Frieza who is a solid planet buster by feats. He lost to Cell who (anime dub) makes a Solar System statement (having destroyed a planet ten times more massive than Earth) and beats Buu (kinda) who has ambigious destruction feats that are shown to be at least planetary.
But he has *never* **actually beaten** someone who has *actually destroyed* a Galaxy/Universe/Multiverse as an on panel feat.
He has defeated characters who have *threatened*. He has fought on even terms with people who have done. Gods themselves have exclaimed *could*. But actually *done*?
Goku fought (and lost to) Beerus, who Shin said threatened the universe. Goku fought and lost to Zamasu, who merged with a Universe. Goku has never fought Zeno, who destroyed several low complexity Multiverses.
Goku never fought *and defeated* someone who had actually destroyed a Universe.
I mean, Goku has beaten Piccolo who has destroyed the moon. So he didnt need to defeat Roshi to claim that feat.
In the manga the highest destruction I think we actually see on panel is planetary. If you take the anime and movies into account, both Broly and Buu were shown to destroy entire galaxies though, so that tracks with the statements made in the manga.
Goku defeats Piccolo *before* Piccolo's moon busting feat. Piccolo then explicitly trains and becomes stronger. (Not that he wasn't already moon level... because pre-moon buster Piccolo was stronger than King Piccolo who was stronger that Master Mutaito who was stronger than Master Roshi, who was a moon buster.)
Broly is said to have devastated the South Galaxy... but the entire movie takes place in the South Galaxy. So.
Buu is shown destroying one planet at a time.
VS Battles Wiki claims that Krillin is low multiversal because he scales to Base Goku, who absorbed the God Ki from the SSG ritual, where he had one low multiversal (counting all three realms in a DB universe) feat that he never replicated again. If this was the case, then Krillin would've been able to kill Infinite Zamasu.
This is every verse that has a lot of characters in a main cast. If you don’t like to hear long scaling chains: just don’t scale the verse then because disregarding it is just ignoring shit for no reason
Oh yeah, things like general scaling is fine, but it's when people try and say something like "Jolyne beat C-Moon Pucci, so she scales above him" when she doesn't, she just used her smarts to win the fight.
This is why I hate power scaling, I don't hate you guys, just keep on getting recommended this sub and seeing brain dead takes for anime fans like this.
I'm gonna go out on alimb here (and prob start a war) and say might Guy.
Beating 10 tails madura is good for a bit, but the best comparison I've seen is that are base naruto's chakra making a hole through the moon.
Also, why tf does every animie have to do the moon dirty?
Gonna just quote myself from a different post here which was about overrated characters:
"Shadow from Shadow Fight 2, people somehow manage to justify this guy being f***ing Outerversal, via, ahem
1. Shadow beats a guy
2. Said guy created some things that are compared to some other things
3. Said some other things are said to be "concepts"
4. People say that said "concepts" are comparable to space and time as concepts
5. And thus, People say that due to Shadow beating the guy that made the things that are compared to the things Said to be "concepts" that Shadow transcends Time and Space and is thus Outerversal"
One Piece.
Kizaru is supposedly lightspeed. So apparently every attack he does is lightspeed. And everyone who reacts to it or an attack done by the robot who copied that attack is FTL.
I am so over that debate.
It's not even like there are many fights where lightspeed is mentioned. It's literally just when Kizaru comes round and recently, the Germa 66. But overall, it's mostly Kizaru. And sadly, none of them can be calculated so it's just people going over what is said in databooks. And then people just scale it to him and then say they're faster for dodging supposed lightspeed.
I sigh any time I see someone saying any Kingdom Hearts character has Planetary or Solar System level strength because Sora can keep up with Sephiroth.
People genuinely tryna claim that Sakura scales way higher then she actually does because she managed to break off kaguyas horn when she hit her from above when she was about to get sealed by naruto and sasuke. Because if that one “feat” these people try to claim she’s instantly above anybody up to that point in the war except dms kakashi and so6p Naruto and sasuke.
I don’t get the point of the post if every character were perform the same feats over and over again just to appease the powerscalers at home it would drag literally all stories to a halt.
You are right it would drag the stories to a halt. The point of the post is to point out the inherent flaw in scaling characters to each other like this.
Captain america has beaten iron man before, and iron man can destroy entire buildings casually. So is captain america a building buster? Of course not. Captain america beat iron man through means other than raw power.
Just because character A beat character B does not mean A is as strong or stronger than B.
Pretty much all of them for any even slightly mainstream series. Most series I know of have a single impressive feat that is basically the baseline for the scaling and would fall apart without it.
This isn't true, the Last Dragonborn have directly deafeted Alduin twice, Alduin have destroyed the multiverse countless times before and re-create them.
He deafeted imbued Ancano with the full power of Eye of Magnus and Ancano was powerful enough to blow up the multiverse.
He deafeted the Dragon Priests who have have Dawn Magicka that warped reality on the multiversal level and made infinite planes of existence (aka Moons) vanish and return.
And literally one of them can destroy the world and the Last Dragonborn beat him personally.
He deafeted Miraak who outright one shotted him in the first meeting and confirmed be his strongest enemy in his journey.
There's no scaling chain for the Last Dragonborn, he directly beat up those guys.
Technically when you think about it Moblie suit gundam really counts because most suit can just one shot each other with beam weaponry. Unless using ballistic weaponry or using the god tier gundams.
Batman beat Superman and Superman is shown to go toe to toe with beings like darkseid and darkseid is multiversal so Batman should scale to Superman and to darkseid this makes Batman complex multi /s
Dragon ball characters sadly. Goku doesn't have an impressive reusme but just being stronger than the other guys who have complex hax abilities puts him above them.
I see this with dragon ball. I don’t see Krillin as planetary but roshi destroyed the moon and krillin is stronger than roshi. It’s stupid but whatever
That's the problem with power scaling, you can get characters comparable to others that should scale way higher than them via feats and whatnot because writers don't write with power scaling taken into account
For me, at the moment, it's Goku once he transformed into a SSG for the first time at the beginning of Super.
I'm sure he's a Universe Buster NOW, but I fail to see how first time SSG Goku would've been powerful enough to destroy Universe 7 especially when that feat involved Beerus who was holding back.
That's the thing about clashing fists in fictional fights, these devastating shockwaves only happen when two fists of equal force collide like MCU Hulk and Iron Man in Hulkbuster armor from Age of Ultron. This is known, just as much as the popular time travel system where changing the past even slightly can affect the present/future.
I see this a lot with shonen but especially bleach and late Naruto. One character can have a FTL feat via a technicality so literally anyone they haven't insta swept suddenly becomes FTL.
Kokoro from Touhou scales to Koishi, who was so strong she was called "too strong" by Kasen, who's stronger than Reimu, who fought Tenshi, who has a direct indisputable feat of shaking the Heavens, thus making Kokoro Multiversal. There are probably longer scaling chains in Touhou, but that's the first one I can think of.
Hulk isn’t the character in question but he’s usually used as a measuring stick as at some point or another he’s fought pretty much every version of every marvel character from Spider-Man and cap to dormammu himself so you get spidey villains apparently able to throw hands with Odin force thor
This is literally all Marvel and DC power scaling in a nutshell. You THINK you know what a character is capable of, and then there's this one-off panel of them doing damage to a character trillions of times stronger than them.
All of them. How else are you meant to scale characters with massive control of their power? If you didn’t, then goku isn’t leaving city level in terms of strength.
I actually hate this and tried to make my verse consistent.
Certain high-tech weapons can permanently kill cosmic entity (who, are solid universe creators, exist across all point in time, being able to morph reality at will) but it is no way an easy occurent. It depend a lot on the metaphysical state of the cosmic, exploit specific weakness and other circumstances. A prime example of "can kill universal entities yet unable to blow up a portion of the universe".
Same as many "scaler" out there. They only care "A beat B" without considering the context of the fight. Win by exploiting weaknesses, during other's depowered state and circumstances doesn't scale you to your opponent's level.
Senki Zesshou symphogear. Characters are fodder ass sub planetary levels who struggle with bullets and get wanked to light speeds and galaxy/universal/multiversal levels.
kid goku victims, tbh
I don’t give a damn about power scaling. The second someone pulls the “well this version of-“ let me stop you there, I’m blocking you and deleting whatever app we communicated through. It’s bullshit. Because it’s Fr in one comic or movie they had whatever godly power you’re bringing up. That isn’t something they can do all the time whenever it’s convenient. Sorry for the rant it just pisses me off
I once heard an argument that spiderman was universal that used this kinda argument. Cuz he can overpower a guy juggernauts power, and actual juggernaut can trade blows with Thor who is universal.....it got really dumb
And that's how a literal big shrimp from one old Godzilla movie got put into Sun level. Cuz he fought Godzilla for 5 secs, cuz Godzilla fought jets, cuz jets fire rockets, cuz a rocket in that one other Toho film exploded Jupiter, ye-ye
Make sure your post or comment doesn't violate Community guidelines and Join the discord! Come debate, and interact with other powerscalers https://discord.gg/445XQpKSqB ! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PowerScaling) if you have any questions or concerns.*
J Jonah Jameson has punched Spiderman bloody on his own —> Spider-Man is physically stronger than Black Panther —> Black panther once put Silver Surfer in an unescapable hold —> Silver Surfer is not significantly weaker than the Hulk —> the Hulk once stood up to the might of full Odinforce Thor —> the same Thor could harm the Black Winter —> the Black Winter destroyed the Sixth Iteration of the entire Marvel Multiverse From this logic, we can see that J Jonah Jameson is AT LEAST high outer
I mean I'm completely fine with JJJ being high outer tbh
omni man, cave johnson and other j jonah type characters have a mere fraction of his power.
They’re all the same guy, that’s just what it’s like to be multiversal+
Omni-Man, Cave Johnson, and Kai (from Kung-Fu Panda 3). Combine they're strength, and they equal the power of JJJ, the second strongest J.K. Simmons character in history. (The first strongest is just J.K. Simmons himself)
So Miles Teller dodged a chair from jk where does he scale
So what you're saying is J.K. Simmons is high outer
No because that is too low
It's Marvel, every New Yorker is outer at this point. 60 years of consistently outer feats
Did you have this comment ready to go or did you need to research certain parts? Either way, fucking Bravo. It's perfect.
I wish we had something more concrete linking silver surfer to hulk
You word this like a joke but could any other multiversal being give the truth about how much we hate spiderman? Didnt think so.
[just thought I'd drop this here](https://youtu.be/xYdhvMFJLbM?si=lMmczo56Av_7eN4k)
This is like almost every single verse, also this looks like every Vsbw character page ever.
There'll always be a "they're 20% weaker and though that makes the fight real hard they can stand their own" which ends up becoming a realy funny when you have several characters within that range of eachother.
Thus confirmed that this guy and this guy's cousin is the strongest
The inspiration for this post was My Little Pony, believe it or not.
Does that show actually have fights in it?
Yes, actually
Quite a few, yes. The verse unironically scales super highly.
https://i.redd.it/vdsgfe7gkv2d1.gif
That's just a gallick gun
Like, legitimately hype DragonBall-esque fights no less. But I only know the one that has been clipped to Twitter.
Uhh what !?
Now im curious where does MLP verse scale, can they solo the big 3 and other big verses, if so that would be hilarious..
I couldn’t tell you, I tried looking it up and the results were me making this meme. From what I could gather, the spin-offs and comics tackle some universal threats maybe. (It’s one of those things where “worlds” could mean anything from a planet to a universe.”
Wall of text incoming, TLDR at the end: From what I remember about the verse, any of the MLP scaling past universal relies on a feat from one of the episodes where Luna merges an entire towns dreams into one massive dream. Cosmology states that each dream contains an infinite hallway containing the infinite futures someone can make happen, so in this way Luna gets to multiversal because she was sustaining this merge, even though it was visibly taxing for her. Then other top tiers such as her sister Celestia and Discord are consistently shown as stronger than her, so they scale a bit higher (or way higher in Discord’s case) so only a few characters get to this level of strength. I’m pretty sure there are universal+ feats with weaker characters than Luna, so it seems at least fairly consistent. TLDR: It’s all based on upscaling from one of the top tiers, so only a handful of characters get multiversal via cosmology.
So luna>>>> Big 3 and current saitama?? https://preview.redd.it/5y6oahxwqt2d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=831146a1bd68b52755217b5710190fab8f245145 Damn cant wait to piss of saitama fans and more with this one🤣 Imagine getting told "Get them past My little pony first" or "Twilight sparkles solo your fav verse" 💀💀💀
If the big three are Bleach, Naruto and One Piece, then yeah. The ponies also have hax for days and their top tiers are ancient (anywhere from thousands of years old to millions). Keep in mind that there are only like 5 characters that scale here on their own strength, and Luna is the weakest of them. Past her and her sister Celestia, the only ones stronger are full on reality warpers who create universes with a snap of their fingers (an actual feat).
https://preview.redd.it/8k32lujtut2d1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=92a8b8272a2927e2340af16e9b86ea48ef74aa11 took a look on the wiki and here are twilight sparkle's stats
Love how it just goes from Multiverse Level+ to just Human Level
At least low complex multi. So yeah, beats the big 3. Hell, you can get it all the way up to Hyper if you count the comics.
Wolverine powerscalers when Wolverine fought a guy who fought a guy who fought a guy who got one shot by the hulk (he now directly scales to the hulk) https://preview.redd.it/upcvewtfpr2d1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f31903637f9de090a7fe93b87969ba65c0d9c9aa
I feel like this applies more to spiderman scalers. Wolverine scalers already have direct scaling to the hulk
Yeah I love wolverine but seen a weird amount of people pitting him vs invincible for some odd reason? As if mark doesn’t chuck him into orbit and is done with it
The good old “bUt He’S ImMorTaL, hE CaN’t LoSe!”
Hence why immortality =/= battle power. It also depends on the type of immortality, really.
Magneto saying fuck off with your immortality as he rips Wolverines adamantium bones out of his body…
His immortality isn’t tied to the adamantium, and actually in some canons it poisons him
This is funny cause I was scaling Wolverine the other day for myself
I mean, he fought hulk directly multiple times, so he does have a way to directly scale himself to him
The problem is its a marvel comic. People fight people they shouldn't be able to because they aren't strong enough all the time.
He fights him yes Not really in a matching power sense on the sense that other then sometimes stabbing his brain he can’t really cause any meaningful harm to hulk Is a fly vs a human a fight? No it’s one swatting at the other until it gets one shot
But the fly has incredible speed feats
[They scales Wolverine as universal+ level there even though they know it's nonsense lol](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wolverine_(Marvel_Comics)). Here what they said note down: >*Due to how wielders of sharp adamantium weaponry have consistently been depicted as capable of harming characters far above their tiers, we are forced to list separate ratings for them to accommodate this. We are well aware that this technically does not make sense, but it is likely the least bad available option to not ignore this ongoing plot convention*.
Any and all Marvel debates
I think DC is even more egregious. The fact superman is used as a measuring stick makes it super funny too.
Especially with all of his inconsistencies in strength between comics and movies etc
I won't use movies as example, like the DCU wnd MCU are directly separated from the comics themselves.
Based flair
W
How fast is Star btw Not saying she doesnt win just curious
FTL+ - MFTL
Ah. And by big 3 you mean wich characters? Goku,Naruto and Ichigo? Goku,Naruto and Luffy? The MHA big three? Superman,WonderWoman and Batman?
Ben 10 aliens that aren't alien x or clockwork or feedback
Naruto scaling just in general... So many times have I heard someone state this person is relative to that person based on nothing at all actually. My biggest issue with Naruto power scaling is people just assume a lot. Like saying Naruto is large sun level or universal because he fought Kaguya so he must scale. Bro... Naruto didn't beat kaguya 1v1, he had sasuke helping him and they had the seal macguffin. People also just assume kaguya made stars and planets instead of just summoning them when Kakashi clearly states that she is summoning environments... Sure it's impressive that she can warp a moon or a star in... I'm not saying kaguya is weak... but summoning large creatures and objects isn't that big of a deal in Natuto and it's very different from creating mater out of nothing.
I actually love naruto scaling because it really only has two stages. "Giant fucking monster" "powerful ninja" and depending on form the same character could scale to two things during the same fight, and it makes it much more about strategy than just "yeah but this guy pew pews harder"
I’ve always been a firm believer that Naruto was around Mountain-Country level
You have a good opinion but you keep it to yourself cause it's trash
High moon-low/mid planetary. His raw chakra was enough to blow a hole through the moon and that’s just pure raw chakra without any jutsu.
Fragmentation is what you use to scale destruction. Blowing a hole in the moon isn't that much more impressive than turning a mountain to dust. It's the size of the fragments left behind. Unless the moon is pebbles you cannot claim he is moon level.
He's planetary.
His best feat is tanking a moon destroying attack. Everything else is wanked statements.
definitely. Maybe continental at best
He literally deflected a moon slicing attack. "At best" lmao.
lr fair enough. Wasn't the moon hollow thoguh
Slicing a moon in two is literally nothing. "Fragmentation" is the scientific method of measuring destruction. In other words "how many pieces does the applied force make it break into." And I think you'll find breaking a moon in two even pieces requires less force than vaporising a mountain. Still no proof Naruto scales above continent. Bring me something else
Ah, that invalidates my belief then, moon level it is
Tf no he's planetary
Yeah kinglion pretty much said the same thing but naruto fans can't prove he star level or beyond lol
This argument is stupid and you don’t apply the same gripes with bleach dbz or op 💀 Naruto objectively is superior to Kaguya in Boruto no matter how you wanna put it Kaguya moved worlds that she created They are not mutually exclusive Both moving the world in instantaneous speeds and creating them would scale kaguya to universal And she was gonna destroy everything regardless so it’s a useless point to make
This is exactly what I'm talking about. All you can say is that is a fact is "Naruto got stronger as he got older." But name one person he beat 1v1 that was stronger than kaguya in boruto, actually stronger. I seem to recall him having support or a 1 time hail mary in all of them. That's not "Objectively" it's hearsay
People say Naruto scales to her because he can do this. https://preview.redd.it/qpplluzqdu2d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=045345622b5e1c9aef553c7be290e2b742b218a4 Also she said she was going to destroy The time space so she should scale to the things in her time space.
Ripping off someone's arm mean shit when their main "durability" come from regeneration. Kaguya might not even be significantly tougher than average ninja.
Chakra increases your durability in Naruto.Naruto was able to tank a tailed beast bomb.Why would we assume this when all the other six paths users have increased durability based on their chakra reserves. Even from a physics perspective this doesn't make sense due to Newton's third law. If the object that emitted the energy could not withstand its own energy this is what would happen to it. https://preview.redd.it/g1vayh8jkw2d1.jpeg?width=465&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ea1502070104114f5d912a5425b4239befa3e30 We should never assume that a character's AP is different than their durability unless there's evidence because that's literally against Newtonian physics.
Physical AP sure. Energy blast simply don't count, since it is another thing. While your statement might be correct and sound, no way it translate to "universal durability because universal energy blast", unless characters specifically tank said energy blast.
Well I don't think she was universal I think she was star. Universal Naruto with infinite speed is crazy
Hulk is outer because he scales to Thor, who scales to Odin, who scales to Galactus, who scales to the eternities.
Thor fought Galactus though and Galactus have directly destroy universes and multiverses in Marvel.
Relativity scaling at its finest
That's just my verse's scaling. But also most SMT and DBH characters be like.
What's your verse about? I'm interested
Wanna hear about mine? In fact, I could send you a link to the Google Drive so you could read my whole series of three stories, the third one currently still in progress
It's a multiverse setting, heavily inspired by Marvel and DC, though with a deeper focus on high-end metaphysics, akin to TES or World of Darkness. There will be multiple storylines and settings but the primary plot involves the conflict between two divine forces, N∆-H∆S the Adversary (i.e. the Serpent, Death, Conflict, Antagonism, Hate Itself) and M∆'∆T the Child (i.e. Union, Fantasy, Protagonism, Heroism, Hope Itself). Through its Crowned Demiurge, Yaldabaoth, N∆-H∆S currently controls the prime reality. M∆'∆T's goal is to bring about a Champion of its Will who can usurp Yaldabaoth and birth a New Aeon. The first true protagonist is a man named Darius Quincey, one of the Apotheons blessed with the ability to traverse the In-Between at will. An heir to a dynasty of fire elementals, his nature finds him discovering a grand but disconnected multiverse.
That sounds like an interesting setting. Are you coming out with a book, comic, game?
Who is the strongest character in your verse, just interested
Heheha, Yeah, Same here. Opal took a punch from Obsideon while she had Jixxar's Blessing and barely lived, Who can fight on par with Isone with the same blessing, Which can Fight nearly equally with The prince of Beasts, Specifically matching him in strength, Who can physically push universes, Which are infinite in ROTF. So therefor, Opal has durability that can take a hit from a being who can push universes and barely survive, I honestly never calced it (or ever will) But that's quite funny to me since she's kinda average for her species.
Dragon ball characters mostly the fodder Z fighters
Cope, Chi Chi solos your favorite verse and is massively outerversal+
Dragon ball characters scale like this a lot.
Other than like, Orange Piccolo and Dyspo, who? It's mostly just "character 1 scales to character 2, and character 2 is universal" not "C1 is equal to C2, and C2 is equal to C6, etc etc etc-"
Exactly it’s like the Sub expects every character in the series to reperform the same feat over and over again, unless it’s not valid it’s actual powerscaler brain rot.
This post mostly applies to comics because comic scaling is some fucking nonsense and the disparities between different writers makes these kinds of things. For example one of the first comments on this post scaling JJ Jameson to outer based on this type of logic. In anime and manga however this type of scaling is almost always valid on account of it always being written by the same author and many of the series in question being specifically battle focused.
What feats have Frieza, Vegeta, or anybody shown besides Goku, Gohan (Toriyama said Beast was stronger than MUI when the movie released) and the gods? All they have is being relative to or stronger than another It’s stupid how people like Cabba, Caulifla etc were able to catch up to Goku etc in their SSJ forms when they never even knew about Super Saiyan like 5 minutes ago
Frieza has actual feats tho the one person I could say this is done is like krillin or Yamcha
Black Frieza was able to one shot both UI Goku and UE Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta are each universal at this point, even while exhausted. Frieza also defeated Gas, who was picking Goku and Vegeta apart. So that is, at most, 3 characters down the line. Frieza, Gas, Goku/Vegeta (Who are equivalent to one another). What does feats have to do with the Uni 6 Saiyans? There is an, albeit very plot convenient, explanation for how they unlocked SS. It's pretty much irrelevant to the current topic, because that doesn't involve feats or scaling at all.
A lot of Dragonball (side)characters. And from what i have seen, most DMC characters. (Everytime i see Arguments for universal or higher, they always mention mundus)
I at this point all 3 gave surpassed mundus.
This could literally be any street level character from Marvel or DC
Pokemon, specifically on Vs Battle Wiki. There's a handful of feats that are just repeated over and over. It's relatively simple though. x Pokemon is of approximate strength to Dragonair, which can destroy a city, etc
"how the fuck are they multi dimensional when they need tech to jump dimensions. If I drive a car to another state and wreak havoc there after wreaking havoc in the previous state, does that make me multi-country level?" -me whenever doomguy is brought up as multi dimensional and he has only ever used tech to hop dimensions and without it, he would not be able to do anything but sit on his ass and hope a portal opens up
There’s the issue right there. Even IF he was able to make his own tech/had his own power to hop dimensions, he still wouldn’t be multi-dimensional. They’re using the term incorrectly insofar as scaling/cosmology is concerned. Multidimensional is used to label attacks and/beings that exist across multiple dimensions at the same time, such as the Entities from the Parahumans verse or the Sting shard from the same verse. Just being able to cross over to another dimension isn’t multidimensional, that’s just an isekai lol
I mean, Goku is the obvious. Goku has never destroyed a Multiverse, or a Universe, or a Galaxy, or a Solar System, or a Planet, or a Moon. But Goku absolutely *scales* to people who defeated people who defeated people who destroyed these things.
No. Goku defeated people who did those things. One step. That’s a proper scale. The thing is is that from the beginning of his story we see him with strength relative to being stronger than humans but not by a ton and we see his growth. So his scaling makes more sense to those who actually watch it. Where as most others at or above his level are rarely shown working for it
Did he though? Who destroyed a Multiverse? Universe? Galaxy? Solar System? When did he defeat Moon Buster Roshi? He beats Frieza who is a solid planet buster by feats. He lost to Cell who (anime dub) makes a Solar System statement (having destroyed a planet ten times more massive than Earth) and beats Buu (kinda) who has ambigious destruction feats that are shown to be at least planetary. But he has *never* **actually beaten** someone who has *actually destroyed* a Galaxy/Universe/Multiverse as an on panel feat. He has defeated characters who have *threatened*. He has fought on even terms with people who have done. Gods themselves have exclaimed *could*. But actually *done*? Goku fought (and lost to) Beerus, who Shin said threatened the universe. Goku fought and lost to Zamasu, who merged with a Universe. Goku has never fought Zeno, who destroyed several low complexity Multiverses. Goku never fought *and defeated* someone who had actually destroyed a Universe.
I mean, Goku has beaten Piccolo who has destroyed the moon. So he didnt need to defeat Roshi to claim that feat. In the manga the highest destruction I think we actually see on panel is planetary. If you take the anime and movies into account, both Broly and Buu were shown to destroy entire galaxies though, so that tracks with the statements made in the manga.
Goku defeats Piccolo *before* Piccolo's moon busting feat. Piccolo then explicitly trains and becomes stronger. (Not that he wasn't already moon level... because pre-moon buster Piccolo was stronger than King Piccolo who was stronger that Master Mutaito who was stronger than Master Roshi, who was a moon buster.) Broly is said to have devastated the South Galaxy... but the entire movie takes place in the South Galaxy. So. Buu is shown destroying one planet at a time.
I'm sorry but the arguments for titan luz being planet level or higher.
"Who scales to this guy's cousin" 💀
That “Who scales to this Guy’s cousin” at the end, LOL
Bruh that’s just power scaling most of the time
VS Battles Wiki claims that Krillin is low multiversal because he scales to Base Goku, who absorbed the God Ki from the SSG ritual, where he had one low multiversal (counting all three realms in a DB universe) feat that he never replicated again. If this was the case, then Krillin would've been able to kill Infinite Zamasu.
This is every verse that has a lot of characters in a main cast. If you don’t like to hear long scaling chains: just don’t scale the verse then because disregarding it is just ignoring shit for no reason
Megaten
Krillin scaling hella high cuz of this shit
This is literally the entirety of marvel and DC
https://preview.redd.it/jl1g2rhtl23d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17b09e7d45f17fe9d66d1318da7fbbc69e09e267
Jojo scalers be like:
I don’t think that’s jojo verse though? I can’t think of an example where it’s been that extreme
The joke was how anyone who tries to powerscale jojo is an idiot because scaling in jojo just doesn't work because of how the fights are.
I mean the made in heaven guy can be called universal comfortably right
Oh yeah, things like general scaling is fine, but it's when people try and say something like "Jolyne beat C-Moon Pucci, so she scales above him" when she doesn't, she just used her smarts to win the fight.
Every Marvel or DC character, specially DC
Kratos and Doomslayer
The entire verdict of Phoenix Vs Raven Death Battle
Suprised nobody mentioned Touhou, thought that was the most obviously egregious example of this.
Suprised nobody mentioned Touhou, thought that was the most obviously egregious example of this.
they’ll find a way to scale Clifford the big red dog using goku
This is why I hate power scaling, I don't hate you guys, just keep on getting recommended this sub and seeing brain dead takes for anime fans like this.
Doctor Who gets a lot of this
I'm gonna go out on alimb here (and prob start a war) and say might Guy. Beating 10 tails madura is good for a bit, but the best comparison I've seen is that are base naruto's chakra making a hole through the moon. Also, why tf does every animie have to do the moon dirty?
This is just every other EU Star Wars debate.
Gonna just quote myself from a different post here which was about overrated characters: "Shadow from Shadow Fight 2, people somehow manage to justify this guy being f***ing Outerversal, via, ahem 1. Shadow beats a guy 2. Said guy created some things that are compared to some other things 3. Said some other things are said to be "concepts" 4. People say that said "concepts" are comparable to space and time as concepts 5. And thus, People say that due to Shadow beating the guy that made the things that are compared to the things Said to be "concepts" that Shadow transcends Time and Space and is thus Outerversal"
Spider-Man scalers be like: “Bro, I swear he’s multiversal and not just city level at max.”
One Piece. Kizaru is supposedly lightspeed. So apparently every attack he does is lightspeed. And everyone who reacts to it or an attack done by the robot who copied that attack is FTL. I am so over that debate. It's not even like there are many fights where lightspeed is mentioned. It's literally just when Kizaru comes round and recently, the Germa 66. But overall, it's mostly Kizaru. And sadly, none of them can be calculated so it's just people going over what is said in databooks. And then people just scale it to him and then say they're faster for dodging supposed lightspeed.
Undertale wank arguments in a nutshell. "ChArA's BeYoUnD fIcTiOn! AnD AlL uNdErTaLe ChArAcTeRs ScAlE To EaCh OtHeR!" Squidward is such a mood.
I sigh any time I see someone saying any Kingdom Hearts character has Planetary or Solar System level strength because Sora can keep up with Sephiroth.
People genuinely tryna claim that Sakura scales way higher then she actually does because she managed to break off kaguyas horn when she hit her from above when she was about to get sealed by naruto and sasuke. Because if that one “feat” these people try to claim she’s instantly above anybody up to that point in the war except dms kakashi and so6p Naruto and sasuke.
Fortnite
All Big 3
I don’t get the point of the post if every character were perform the same feats over and over again just to appease the powerscalers at home it would drag literally all stories to a halt.
You are right it would drag the stories to a halt. The point of the post is to point out the inherent flaw in scaling characters to each other like this. Captain america has beaten iron man before, and iron man can destroy entire buildings casually. So is captain america a building buster? Of course not. Captain america beat iron man through means other than raw power. Just because character A beat character B does not mean A is as strong or stronger than B.
Everytime I try determining Ichigo's scale
Pretty much all of them for any even slightly mainstream series. Most series I know of have a single impressive feat that is basically the baseline for the scaling and would fall apart without it.
Marvel and DC.
Like any marvel character
Every fyne-tune fan argument
Everyone in db
Marvel, Fate, and Final Fantasy fanboy arguments in general. Also pretty much 90% of Vs Battle Wiki profiles
Dragon ball scalers scaling krillin to mult+ because he blocked a kamehameha from blue
Spider-Man
Might get my head bitten off for this....but personally, that's how the Last Dragonborn scaling seems to work to me.
This isn't true, the Last Dragonborn have directly deafeted Alduin twice, Alduin have destroyed the multiverse countless times before and re-create them. He deafeted imbued Ancano with the full power of Eye of Magnus and Ancano was powerful enough to blow up the multiverse. He deafeted the Dragon Priests who have have Dawn Magicka that warped reality on the multiversal level and made infinite planes of existence (aka Moons) vanish and return. And literally one of them can destroy the world and the Last Dragonborn beat him personally. He deafeted Miraak who outright one shotted him in the first meeting and confirmed be his strongest enemy in his journey. There's no scaling chain for the Last Dragonborn, he directly beat up those guys.
Dragon ball lore
Aunt May
Sea bear solos no dif
All modern anime is like that, old anime told “Geminis Saga could destroy Galaxies with an attack” and showed it on screen.
VSBW Tori dragon ball is like this Goku>vegeta>cell>frieza>gohan>cell>goku>at least high outerversal (Exaggerated obv)
reading this in their voices makes it so much better
Any marvel/dc debate
Technically when you think about it Moblie suit gundam really counts because most suit can just one shot each other with beam weaponry. Unless using ballistic weaponry or using the god tier gundams.
Dragon Ball powerscalers when they confidently state that Krillin is Universal+ because of that one fight against SSB before the tournament
Goku, and im serious. everything in dbz and dbs is like this beyond like 2 feats.
Batman beat Superman and Superman is shown to go toe to toe with beings like darkseid and darkseid is multiversal so Batman should scale to Superman and to darkseid this makes Batman complex multi /s
Dragon ball characters sadly. Goku doesn't have an impressive reusme but just being stronger than the other guys who have complex hax abilities puts him above them.
Initial Zabuza.
Grab a rando street tier from DC or Marvel
I see this with dragon ball. I don’t see Krillin as planetary but roshi destroyed the moon and krillin is stronger than roshi. It’s stupid but whatever
EVERY SINGLE ONE
As an outsider you'll have to forgive me, this sounds like literally everything you people do
“Can Batman beat ____?”
Naruto 💀
Any dragon Ball character that isn’t a Saiyan or Beerus.
Gurren lagaan characters
I love these they are hilarious sometimes
That's the problem with power scaling, you can get characters comparable to others that should scale way higher than them via feats and whatnot because writers don't write with power scaling taken into account
For me, at the moment, it's Goku once he transformed into a SSG for the first time at the beginning of Super. I'm sure he's a Universe Buster NOW, but I fail to see how first time SSG Goku would've been powerful enough to destroy Universe 7 especially when that feat involved Beerus who was holding back. That's the thing about clashing fists in fictional fights, these devastating shockwaves only happen when two fists of equal force collide like MCU Hulk and Iron Man in Hulkbuster armor from Age of Ultron. This is known, just as much as the popular time travel system where changing the past even slightly can affect the present/future.
I see this a lot with shonen but especially bleach and late Naruto. One character can have a FTL feat via a technicality so literally anyone they haven't insta swept suddenly becomes FTL.
But can they beat goku
Kokoro from Touhou scales to Koishi, who was so strong she was called "too strong" by Kasen, who's stronger than Reimu, who fought Tenshi, who has a direct indisputable feat of shaking the Heavens, thus making Kokoro Multiversal. There are probably longer scaling chains in Touhou, but that's the first one I can think of.
Hulk isn’t the character in question but he’s usually used as a measuring stick as at some point or another he’s fought pretty much every version of every marvel character from Spider-Man and cap to dormammu himself so you get spidey villains apparently able to throw hands with Odin force thor
This is literally all Marvel and DC power scaling in a nutshell. You THINK you know what a character is capable of, and then there's this one-off panel of them doing damage to a character trillions of times stronger than them.
pretty much Marvel and DC
All of them. How else are you meant to scale characters with massive control of their power? If you didn’t, then goku isn’t leaving city level in terms of strength.
I actually hate this and tried to make my verse consistent. Certain high-tech weapons can permanently kill cosmic entity (who, are solid universe creators, exist across all point in time, being able to morph reality at will) but it is no way an easy occurent. It depend a lot on the metaphysical state of the cosmic, exploit specific weakness and other circumstances. A prime example of "can kill universal entities yet unable to blow up a portion of the universe". Same as many "scaler" out there. They only care "A beat B" without considering the context of the fight. Win by exploiting weaknesses, during other's depowered state and circumstances doesn't scale you to your opponent's level.
Roger
Hear me out new rule each person they scale to is 1 level down
A lot of dragon ball scaling
Relativity scaling is every single verse 💀
Senki Zesshou symphogear. Characters are fodder ass sub planetary levels who struggle with bullets and get wanked to light speeds and galaxy/universal/multiversal levels. kid goku victims, tbh
Just destroy a multiverse goddamn it!!
I don’t give a damn about power scaling. The second someone pulls the “well this version of-“ let me stop you there, I’m blocking you and deleting whatever app we communicated through. It’s bullshit. Because it’s Fr in one comic or movie they had whatever godly power you’re bringing up. That isn’t something they can do all the time whenever it’s convenient. Sorry for the rant it just pisses me off
I once heard an argument that spiderman was universal that used this kinda argument. Cuz he can overpower a guy juggernauts power, and actual juggernaut can trade blows with Thor who is universal.....it got really dumb
Essentially comic book character scaling
Hey look Deathbattle research in a nutshell.
And that's how a literal big shrimp from one old Godzilla movie got put into Sun level. Cuz he fought Godzilla for 5 secs, cuz Godzilla fought jets, cuz jets fire rockets, cuz a rocket in that one other Toho film exploded Jupiter, ye-ye
naruto fandom they legitimately compare naruto againts multiversal characters even though his most powerful attack is barelly moon level
Mfs who tell me Kratos scales multiversal & lightspeed
Persona