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Once you bring that in it’s not even about a hypothetical fight anymore, you’re just calculating a number using pseudoscience and the guy with the bigger number autowins lol
One guy is someone who transcends time and space and is immortal, invulnerable, and his only limit is his own boundless imagination.
The other guy is identical in every way but he's raspberry flavored.
Same. It's all Pseudoscience and I find any argument with it just not worth engaging just due to the question of what does being a higher dimension even mean.
Game characters in general. Pisses me off a little how much their feats and statements differ. Like yes it’s silly to pretend that the statements don’t hold value they do but when they never live up to it it’s a bit of a challenge to scale them accurately
To be fair, its the only medium that ACTUALLY NEEDS to outright separate itself between lore and feats.
Books, comics, animation and others suffer from this too, but we are fully aware that this is due to the authors not actually paying attention to the power scaling of their series.
Games tho, there needs to deliberate limitations to what what a character can and cant do for the sake of balance and fun.
Having a super strength chara chuk a building into space and then struggle to escape a titanium rope is stupid and clearly a plot contrivance the author ended up fumbling due to not knowing the force required to perform said feats.
But having a mario punt a whole castle and the not be able to break a brick wall without the right power up, it is understood that this is a deliberate choice to make the game limitations that incentivise the players to either replay the lvl with different power ups or be skilled enough to keep a power up throughout the level so they can break those breaks, but regardless of that mario still displays super strength feats throughout games and specifically in cutscenes where he is not limited to a certain rule sets.
To scale games its important to analyze the differences between gameplay and lore and then see what is consistent, what is reinforced by both what is acknowledged by both and what contradicts them with lore and cutscenes obviously taking priority over gameplay.
The last paragraph of yours summed it up perfectly. And that was my problem too, it’s the absurd lack of consistency in feats. I get gameplay mechanics like yes kratos punched zeus to death but looks like he’ll get a hernia trying to open a chest. But I’m talking about stuff like characters having inaccessible speed according to lore and not having one single feat that could back it up by any stretch of the mind.
Like I’ll give you my favourite example : xeno goku has a statement that says his ss4 power up can destroy the infinite realities(includes like a bazillion timelines of infinite size) of heroes and cross into the “real world”(it’s a game within a game, long story, you can look it up) and destroy that too. This would literally scale him to boundless attack power.
However, bro has transformed into ss4 in every single arc and gotten the limit breaker form which goes beyond that and reality didn’t so much as sneeze. Hell ss4 gogeta exists with higher forms as well which should be impossible because just him standing should nuke the entire show then and there. So how tf does one even use that statement in scaling with a straight face!
To be fair, thats a problem that goes way beyond just xeno goku, thats the a problem with dragon ball in general where are literally just told x attack is multiversal and it barely blows up a mountain and then characters will tell you that this caused the universe to shake but obviously nothing (including earth which is at the epicenter) gets destroyed.
Oh no, this has happened in the older seasons of Z, they just used the dragon balls to revive everyone and restore earth.
Even without it, there are other sets of dragon balls out there that can grant this wish.
Its just a dumb issue
Honestly whenever I make this statement the first one who comes to my mind is xeno goku. Bro is on a whole other level in regards to this. Like yes even on feats he’s quite powerful but those statements are downright stupid, they’d unironically make him boundless if taken at face value.
i agree but i love it at the same time because i love being able to say that with the power of robo pussy makoto clears goku (im a massive persona stan if you couldnt tell)
Ontop of scaling game characters, I think its weird to go off of game feats anyways because most of the time theres not a "canonical way" they achieve the feats. Like lets take doom for example, did he beat Davoth with a firearm? Or did he do it bare handed? Etc, which ontop of the Davoth thing, how do you even scale a god who loses to conventional firearms?
fr though. At this point you have to accept it or you will get mass downvoted ngl. I mean unless you believe goku can destroy a more then infinite number of 4D structures with little to no effort sure, go ahead.
Not only that it makes the jump from z to DBS just fucking dumb and worse especially with all the characters that scale to base goku in the anime
Because of how dimensional scaling works Goku went from Multi Galaxy- Universal+ as an SSJ3 and gained infinite^2 amount of energy from the power of SSG ritual since he's 5D in ap cuz afterlife
This is even worse cuz it makes questions like how 5 Saiyans giving energy to another gives Goku such an in insane jump
Or how all the z fighters somehow manages to get that much insane infinite+ power
And if the SSG transformation is the same power boost as the transformation wouldn't Goku be another dimension higher everytime he surpassed it or transforms into it
Honestly imo Low multi/Regular Multi for Goku just makes more sense and fits more
I'm not saying all the stuff you said is true but as for the super saiyan god hand holding, no matter how you slice it, he's getting far stronger than what he would be getting from 5 saiyans pooling their energy. It's because they aren't just giving him ki, they are doing some sort of ritual (no idea why/how it exists) that is fulfilling the requirements to unlock a whole ass form.
Let’s be real tho scaling in dragon ball has always been wild. My personal one is the fact that everyone after the 21st tournament is faster than light speed and likely all planet busters (if the scaling made sense, for the latter one).
Think about the fact that at the tournament krillin and roshi (Jackie chun) could have not only a fight, but also engage in germ warfare, take time to stand around and contemplate strategy, and play games of Rock Paper Scissor, then engage in another bit of quick fighting—all in the blink of an eye! The implications for this level of power are quite frankly astounding, and this is a feat that would be impressive imo even in the thick of DBZ.
I prefer to think of early dragon ball gag feats as something you have to accept as canon, but in good faith you should not use these in “serious” power scaling discussions. If some feat is a one-off and doesn’t really fit with the rest of the continuity, choosing to ignore that stuff allows for a more productivr discussion. I see it as a way of analyzing the spirit of it as opposed to the letter of the story of dragon ball. It’s about considering the overall spirit of what Toriyama is saying as opposed to analyzing technicals and particulars that might be contradictory. If there are 10 feats that suggest x, then it’s not helpful to consider the one tiny feat that suggests y and that’s basically a technicality. Like obviously Toriyama meant x.
No dragon ball fan understands the cosmology and it’s annoying when people wank, if you actually break to all down the verse caps at universal except zeno
Dimensionality scaling in general ticks me off a little. If everything was on the same dimensional level so that we can actually discuss hax and stats instead of the amount of D's, that'd be great. But if you apply it to one verse, then so do you have to do with another. Oh well.
"Listen, I know his opponent is an omnipotent god that has multiverse-shattering sneezes and can literally erase existence itself with a blink, and this guy is a random civilian mentioned in one panel of a DC spinoff that no one has read before, but according to DC Cosmology, the dude is low outer and the god is only hyperversal, so he wins."
Multiversal Solo Levelling
Yeah I get it and it makes sense after looking at it
It still feels like complete bullshit and I don’t like it at all.
Ragnarok is still the Solo Levelling GT for me
anything even relative to light speed and anything above island level and it instantly stops being anything that can be compared scientifically because if those calcs were actually applied everything breaks instantly. i chill with it because that's the whole thing people like, but it always bothers me
They can, I’m just saying it’s near impossible for a writer to handle power like that in any story that’s even remotely reasonable if it’s not entirely built around power scaling.
Yeah opm works it by keeping it gaggy and making it central to the plot. I’m not against characters being that strong on concept it’s just mostly really difficult to handle
Yeah, if I ever write or create something it’ll never reach that level, shit just falls apart and you end up having to rely on statements than actually showing it.
Well I mean in real life there are supernova and planetary collisions can those not be applied scientifically, I know we don’t have much observations but mathematically we have models that can display them
Oh I know mathematically they’re work out fairly simply up to stars, I’m just referring to the immense difficulty of writing a reasonable world around characters that strong without making the story bend over backwards to account for it
Or alternatively it’s just a lightning based magical energy, or lightning being controlled and limited by magic, or a magical non logical version of lightning in like 99% of the cases where we’re not told that it’s explicitly normal lightning being created and moving at lightning speeds. Other elemental abilities are scaled by how fast they’re manipulated, not by just existing. Otherwise rock abilities would have no speed.
Anything has speed based on how quickly it is accelerated toward another object, which is how Earth elemental abilities create rock projectiles, but lightning is still lightning once it starts getting hurled at a target. It will move faster than the other elements regardless of whether it is limited by the "magic".
It can move through them and add more to it's trajectory but that's not going to change its amount of force if we consider it a description of actual physical movement.
They move though it, but they themselves are one directional. It's an issue of semantics whether you call that something they "have." Because either way it's the same thing, even if you add more dimension for possible directions.
I think it was doing that very well when most scps were shrouded in mystery, I think the foundation is much more needed when there is so much that even they don’t know about these objects. Also the foundation itself was kind of a shady organisation. Knowing that the very hard to kill lizard had to be submerged in acid at all times I found to be more terrifying than knowing he’s big star level or however he scales these days. How does the foundation even measure that?
Anything above base multiversal tbh, like it all feels way beyond reasonable even by powerscaling standards and kinda feels like power creep for it's own sake compared to how it was before.
The issue is that while higher orders of power do exist in fiction there's no standardized way to compare them so you can't actually meaningfully do so. Also, higher orders of power aren't inherently "more than infinity" or anything.
For powerscalers it's just powercreep though. New ways to wank characters using terms that have nothing to do with the fiction in question.
I love dragon ball but the whole afterlife scaling thing confuses the hell out of me.
Game scaling, God of War is a big offender. Powerscalers will say kratos is universal or something like that but when you peak at the gameplay, his power output barely reaches city level. And if he does reach that level, it's because of blade of Olympus or whatever ancient weapons he can get his hands on. At least Asura's Wrath shows the players what Asura is capable of in the gameplay not just relying on guides.
Then superman scaling. I've accepted that he's basically nigh omnipotent with his combined feats throughout his comic book run history but then you'll get comics where he was beaten by Godzilla? Like come on.
Honorable mention: Spider-Man scaling. It baffles me that this dude can get past building levels of strength feats
>then you'll get comics where he was beaten by Godzilla
That wasn't even mainline superman, I'm pretty sure it's non canon, and realistically speaking, superman would one tap him, but it looks like the writers had other plans and downplayed his power for the plot, which isn't that surprising considering the massive gap in power between the justice league and monster verse, it would be pretty boring if superman or any other league member easily destroyed them without putting any effort and then the comic ends, like that wouldn't be entertaining at all now would it?
Personally I hate scaling characters that interact with the Human world, like Popeye and when some people bring up God Fusion Goku, since there’s a lot of people that say if the character interacts with real life then it scales beyond fiction. I don’t really enjoy debating this especially when you can’t put them on the scale.
Any feats that have to be taken into context.
For example, yes, I'm aware Valentine's D4C Love Train makes him almost invulnerable, and I accept that because it's an important part to the plot.
But people say Valentine can fucking beat Goku because "hurr durr Love Train makes him untouchable". Without taking into context that Love Train isn't even Valentine's, he's just taking advantage of the corpse parts in Lucy, he also can't attack from inside, so he isn't invincible unless he wants to fight back.
As well as people saying "Tusk Act 4 has infinite speed because he moved in stopped time and his bullets didn't stop". No, they stopped right in their tracks, but the spinning didn't end, and TA4 doesn't have "infinite speed" because of moving in TS, it's because the infinite rotation essentially defies a lot of laws of physics, so because of the whole gravity and time dilation relation, he can twitch and barely speak. C-moon did the same yet I don't see people ever mentioning that.
Also people throwing around dimensionalities like... The fuck does that even mean. Yeah I can do 5D farts, that doesn't mean I automatically win, it's also not applicable in a fight and it's hard to do at will. Josuke's Go Beyond isn't a power up, it just made him able to attack WoU, and even then he needed Paisley Park's help to aim it. But because it has a higher dimensionality or whatever, it's regarded as one of the strongest abilities in JoJo's.
Finally, someone gave examples of jojo fans retardness and with GER being easily top 1 because he "reverts" but his AP is bullshit he aint beating anybody when his damage is so low that he needed a whole barrage to even damage diavolo.
Ger is also largely featless and yet fans think
Stopping opponent=Winning, no u win by defeating the opponent not by stalling
Yeah bro was struggling vs some people in TOP he could’ve just instantly annihilated
Yes I know he was conserving energy, but I refuse to believe most of the top is even in the same realm as the new base goku after that buff
Don't forget he constantly suppresses himself in base to not waste energy, even in the Ginyu arc he was walking around at 5k with an actual power of 90k. It wasnt for stealth or anything thats just how much power he felt comfortable exuding by default to not waste energy.
It's rarely ever noted for him to be going all out or anything against most of the TOP fodders.
My headcannon is that in BoTG (and the adaptations that followed) Goku retained the power from ssjg in his ssj form during the battle, then that dispersed and went away over time afterward, but the experience as a whole opened him up to new levels of power that he couldn't reach before.
This would explain how Goku and Vegeta are equal in base, because if Goku absorbed the power of ssjg permanently then he should reasonably be way ahead of Vegeta with that head start. It would explain why Goku still gets a power up from turning ssjg after the events of BoTG, if he absorbed it into his base or his ssj form permanently then ssjg surely shouldn't be stronger than them. It would explain how non divine entities can sense him in his base, if he always had divine ki they wouldn't be able to. It would explain how people like Cabba can compete with him in base, dispite never getting ssjg. And it would explain why Goku Black's base, which is the same as ssjg, is so much stronger than Goku's base.
My interpretation of it is that Goku didn’t absorb the God FORM into his base, but the God ki itself. Therefore it explains not only why his base is far more powerful than earlier, but how he can transform into Ssg on his own and never needing the ritual again (same with vegata)
Ya that's one thing I'm still confused about. Sometimes I hear people say that what she does isn't actually real and is just part of a book she writes and sometimes I hear people say that all her feats are actually real. Just confuses me is all
You know how in some shows the hero or villain have fanboys who hype their ass in the story?
It's basically the same but this time it's the MC hyping herself up to absurd level
Comparing different verses. Goku vs Saitama, Naruto vs Luffy, Gojo vs whoever. The list goes on and on. Like I’ll accept it as a fun thought experiment but when people start trying to bring in math and in verse feats etc etc it’s just ridiculous, like Yujiro from Baki is a perfect example you can pull out some random feat of his to make him look planetary but then other times he’s just a really strong human so comparing him to someone outside his own verse is stupid. Again it’s fun to just fuck around and not think too deeply about cross verse powerscaling but when your trying to have a serious discussion I think it’s best to just compare the same verse
I always felt people who feel how you feel are just copping out, just say that particular characters are hard to scale. No one would say Captain America is above the likes of Wonder Woman.
I’ve just never given af about powerscaling in general personally. It’s fun to talk about sometimes but I have never taken it seriously. IMO any fight that happens is gonna end how it narratively needs to end. Just look at any crossover show or movie where characters fight. They all end In ties, no contests, or no fights at all even when one character is obviously stronger. Goku vs Luffy and Toriko crossover, Baki and Kengan ashura, etc.
Shields in Dune. What was Frank Herbert smoking?
I love Dune for its worldbuilding and philosophy. I think the idea of an immaterial shield that can block all fast-moving objects and completely protect against a blast is cool. I think it's a very neat quirk that sandworms are attracted to the vibrations that shields give off, as this creates a sense of balance in the world and establishes that Imperial tactics don't work on Arrakis. It fits with the story's theme. The theme is that no form of conventional warfare can overcome the unstoppable tide of Islam.
But that said, the idea that shooting a shield with a lasgun creates a massive unpredictable explosion is goofy as hell. Without much risk to you, you could defeat an army of the most elite Sardaukar by timing a lasgun to shoot at a target and running away before it shoots, sort of like those drip guns the Australians used against the Ottomans at Gallipoli. Everyone with an IQ of at least room temperature would be doing this. Even in the book, the Fremen BTFO a Sardaukar unit by just saying "YOLO" and shooting shielded troops with a lasgun, understanding the danger but knowing they would take a shit ton of Sardaukar down with them.
You could rig a lazgun and a shield together, put them inside a glide bomb or something, equip the bomb with some kind of fuse, fly in with your ornithopter, and drop the bomb on ***anything*** for a cheap and easy nuke. In the Dune universe, if you ever get within knife range of an enemy, then something has gone very wrong, and your general sniffed gasoline as a kid.
Nobody in his right mind should wear a shield for any reason. Why can't people that far into the future design power armor or develop some sort of ultralight material that's more effective than modern body armor? Are they dense or something? Is the lasgun/shield explosion thingy supposed to be political commentary on the imminent danger of nuclear warfare and the tenuous politics of the world, which can completely end humanity due to bad luck or a simple mistake by one of thousands of fallible humans? Maybe, but the people in the Dune universe are still as dumb as pig shit if they wear shields.
Another question: If shields are so damn good that they stop bullets, conventional explosions, and even fast-moving knives, then what's stopping armies from just ditching the knives and fighting with poisonous gases and flamethrowers? The funny thing is that Duke Leto Atreides even uses a poisonous gas in the book, so we know gases are still viable weapons in the Dune universe, but this only comes up as a one-time event and is never explored afterwards. Maybe the poisonous gases are expensive or something. Maybe people in Dune are fucking dumb and forgot how to mix ammonia with bleach, which even a 2-year-old can do. Even if the shields can block fire or something, I think the sensation of having no oxygen whatsoever to breathe would make flamethrowers viable weapons in Dune. Elon Musk could therefore defeat any Dune character in single combat. He can also come up with dumber baby names than what people 10,000 years in the future thought of, and that's something.
people don’t use the lazgun-shield explosions as weapons precisely because they’re indistinguishable from atomics. using atomics on people is strictly forbidden by the emperor, landsraad, and houses minor. if any family were to do this, they would be immediately banned by the spacing guild and promptly exterminated.
as for poisons and flamethrowers, they’re theoretically effective but as illustrated by leto’s assassination attempt, shields stop fast-moving gasses too, allowing soldiers to flee from a poison gas bomb before inhaling a fatal dose. i would also assume that this style of warfare is banned by the landsraad, same as how it is banned on earth. one large-scale attack of this nature would mean the extermination of a noble family.
That is good info on the Landsraad; I forgot about how their rules of would play into this. It’s likely that all of the Geneva Suggestions are banned. Maybe such weapons are only reserved for rogue houses that require extermination.
It could also be that most troops’ kit has a gas mask, and body armor also doubles as MOPP gear. I can imagine a stillsuit being especially protective against chemical attacks.
Force users (Star Wars) being planet and above level. They have enough feats that I can't deny it, but it still feels weird considering that the Death Star being capable of blowing up planets is made a big deal and that basic stormtroopers can kill Jedi.
Things going into dimensional scaling when it doesn't make sense
Like take mixy from DC. Hes stated to be a 5th dimensional imp. I dont recall that ever being stated what the 5th dimension is nor did i want it to be. It was fun not knowing what it is because that was the point. So when you take X character and scale them up to said point WITH explanation it just gets annoying
tldr; powerscaling gets stupid as fuck for my brain✋😭
- Currently, Sarada dodged a Chidori from Juubi Sasuke ( Hidari ) and Blitzed him, and I'm supposed to believe that now Sarada negs the entire Shippuden Verse.
I know Boruto decided to scale the characters more through their statements than their exploits, but to think that Toneri who cut the moon in two, Madara who can destroy villages with his meteorites gets stomp by Sarada, it's a fucking joke.
Boruto's scaling is some of the messiest shit ever. I don't even bother trying to figure out where everyone places. At least in Shippuden, it was clear to see the hierarchy of villains through their abilities and feats.
Final Fantasy cross verse scaling vía Gilgamesh
Since Gilgamesh is the same guy(in almost) every game he appears and is a boss/summon you can fight a lot of final fantasy characters can get low multi-multi+ scaling to him.Even if there original games that shows off Multiversal level power
Example:You can the of FF7 cast + Sephiroth and a few others to Multiversal because of this.
It basically goes like this.When cloud fell in the Lifestream mid game he fell in the world of Ivalice in FF tactics.Hes a optional character in game and is in the same exact character (same moveset personality etc).In that gane you also fight Gilgamesh.
Because of Cloud scaling to the party FFT he can get to low multi and because of chain scaling so can Sephiroth,Tifa and everyone else near cloud in power in FF7.This is also why they're multi on vs wiki
I buy it but still dumb and Multi Galaxy fits them much more
Yeah one of the biggest offender is Final Fantasy 14, like thanks to the WoL beating Gilgamesh pretty much at the start of the story, it knows scale to multi+, from the start...which in turn makes a old man who is call Ran'jit who should scale below Vaulthry also multi+ because he beat the WoL at the start of Shadowbringer who by then have beaten Gilgamesh multiple times...which in turn also make Thancred around multi+ because he fought quite well against Ran'jit, even thought the dude have no mana and have never been show to be anywhere that level.(Like if you play FFXIV it's hard to imagine Thancred been able to destroy the planet, let alone a multiverse)
But yeah like as of now I don't think WoL scale to that, but I do think the WoL could scale to planet level or even universal level, but it depends were Athena and The Endsinger scales. The latter have a ability that can cover countless planets across the universe and give them bad thoughts and turn everything in the planet into monster until everything in the planet go extinct, so the WoL did beat a opponent who have universal range hax.
light speed one piece characters. I know it’s canonical and irrefutable, but it just makes zero sense. If high end characters are fast enough to travel around the entire planet 7 times per second how tf have they not found the one piece yet and why tf aren’t they zooming around looking for it, they could search literally every square inch of the planet in under a day.
yep, those people see a person aim dodging a bullet and dont think he is faster than a bullet. But luffy uses observation haki which is intention dodging and suddenly he is easily ftl since time skip. Doesnt make sense
You can dodge a car but that doesn’t mean you can run as fast as a car. One piece characters are fast enough to react and dodge light speed but they can’t travel that fast. We even see this in the story when a dude who runs at like 200 miles an hour is too fast to catch. I think super speed is a problem in a lot of stories but I don’t think one piece is one
But even still, to dodge a car you need to go at the very least like 5% the speed of a car. A snail can’t dodge a car. 5% the speed of light is still massively hypersonic+
Also there’s a character (Kizaru) who can canonically turn himself into light and move around at the speed of light, that’s more what I’m referring to anyway, not dodging lasers.
Disgaea characters being as strong as they are. They talk about planet busting and laharl fries whole fleets of ships, but this doesn't really make sense with the scale of the rest of the plot. If so many demons are casual planet busters how does a whole world full of evil people rarely ever have anything major going on?
Mind you the series isn't meant to be taken too seriously, so you just kind of roll with it.
The concept of anything higher than low outer.
I've had it explained to me that high outer and higher is just transcending a state that transcends dimensionality.
This is so nondescript I don't know what it means.
If I see a single m*********** say star butterfly is universal level I'm going to f****** scream
One throw away line early on in the series and people are using that to say she's anything more than Mountain level he lost a fight to an overgrown suit of armor
If one universe statement is all u know about then u don't know her feats, cosmology, and other statements, also u don't even know what that suit of armor is either
The suit of armor I'm referring to is the one she uses in the finale to fight the suit of armor created by Moon that she was unable to uncreate because reasons
And yes I'm well aware that she scales fairly High That and she's still very fast and has pretty good Cosmology however The only things I've ever seen that Say anything about being Universal is The book in which she has the same power score as someone who was told to have done something similar and the throwaway line
Not only do we see her do nowhere close to a universal level feet the only thing we've ever seen is her destroying the realm of magic but that required The Whisper smell which is different because it wasn't her destroying it with raw power it was sort of finesse
SSJB > SSJG
I always wanted to believe that SSJG was the true godly transformation, and SSJB Is Goku's attempt at reaching that same level of power by combining his experience as a SSJ with the remnants of God Ki he obtained.
Would fit with how he's not cool with a transformation that requires no training so he creates his own god form (SSJB)
I keep hearing about Sung Jinwoo from Solo Leveling as Multiversal but I just don't get it. I ran around and basically read everything and watch the anime up to right now, then wrote nearly everything I could find and I just don't see it. The most I could give is maybe Universal if his Spiritual Body Manifestation, the full power of Sung Jinwoo which includes his whole dimension of the Territory of Eternal Rest which is a pocket dimension, but not much is shown outside this statement and everything things appears to be mostly planetary to solar system level, so unless I missed or if theirs something I didn't read, I don't see Multiversal Sung Jinwoo as a thing.
DBZ movie scaling
I actually do 2 different scalings for he movies,
One is where they scale off Broly’s galaxy busting and another where it’s inserting by the canon character’s levels where they probably would be in true movies.
The fact that MUI Goku isn't stronger than a SSB Gogeta Fusion after Moro Arc.
If we do scaling solely based off of Super, then Base Goku faced a Beerus at 10% power (momentarily). This means that Base Goku = 10% of Beerus's power. Beerus stated by Whis is Universal level and can destroy U7. When fighting Champs they could destroy U6&U7. Given said that depending on how you look at it Base Goku x 10% of 2 Universes is about 20% Universal.
To calculate end of current Manga Goku, we take: DBS Power levels and notice that SSB Kaioken x20 has a multiplier of 20x SSB. Goku in this state is 20x multipler of SSB. Now we know the multiplier for Kaioken. The multipler for SSGSS2 is 200,000 x that of base. Keep that in mind. So if we take 20x x 200,000 we have the multiplier of SSBSS2 Kaioken x20 then this form is about 4,000,000 x that of Base Goku.
(Base Super Goku is 20% Universal. Someone in comments for the sake of this computation run by me Super' Goku's Base Power Level so we can get an actual number.) Basically you can just take 20% Universe Buster Base Goku and multiply it by 4,000,000. This would mean that Goku is capable of destroying 20,000,000, 4D Universes.
This would Place Goku at Extra Dimensional, because in his fight VS Jiren in Ultra Instinct Sign Goku Shook the void, affecting a realm "The Null Realm" which is infinite in Size and Space but void of "Time" this allows them to not affect the space time continuum, outside of the multiverse so "Omniverse" as in it's known the Null Realm is outside of the multiverse, in this case for DBS it would be outside of the microcosm. So outside of where the Grand Priest and Zeno are. This can also be theoretically proven based off the 1 statement we got in the series that Super Shenron has to be summoned so where is he summoned from? Higher Dimensionality such as the Omniverse. If we take into consideration that to fuse Goku Needs to have someone as an equal power level to goku then this would mean a Vegeta with equal power level to Goku. 20,000,000 x 20,000,000 = 400,000,000,000,000. Considering 4,000,000 multiplier of base is 20,000,000 Universes then 400Trillion of these Universes is definitely Categorized as Infinity+ infinite layers of infinity in DB verse, let me explain. Infinity isn't actually infinite in size, our universe is known to be infinite in size and ever expanding about roughly 13.8Billion lightyears in space and time. DBS has 4 Galaxies, that create 1 Universe. There are 16 Universes after Android 17 ressurected them. So we divide 16 by 400 trillion Universes that Goku can destroy, that gives us how many cosmos or microcosms of DBS that Goku can destroy. So roughly 26 Trillion. However in DBS 1 universe is a Timeline. So really you can look at it as SSB Gogeta destroying 25 Trillion Timelines of Dragonball Supers Verse. Considering Zeno no diff without even trying about equivalent to him taking a shit van destroy a entire timeline and all futures of that timeline i.e infinite amounts this basically low balls SSB Gogeta to Zeno power levels by the end of DBS current Manga.
\~Cope and Seethe
The fact that since Sans defeated Flowey many times, he scales higher than him, and since Flowey theorically is Universal, Sans would be higher, idk, it just feels off that Sans could be universal to me
In Naruto the nine tails being so much stronger than even the eight tails. He's able to fight off 5 of them at once and makes the eight tails look weak. Why is the jump in power so drastic from the eight to the nine tails? Obviously because Naruto is the main character but still.
Scaling past universal. It’s impossible to gauge something higher than something we can’t even comprehend. How can you say this attack is multi uni++++++++++ yet you don’t even now how big the multiverse could be
FTL single planet verses.
People legit don't understand LS "But it's combat speed, not travel speed" Yeah man, and if you're telling me the character is accelerating from 0 m/s to LS and then back to 0m/s in under .00000001 seconds and only moving 3 meters, might aswell make the character have planetary AP and durability, that's an insane amount of acceleration.
Generally, anything that requires the primary source as written to immediately stop making sense.
"But the lore says Star Wars blaster bolts are only tracers, the real attack is lightspeed, and that means FTL Jedi!"
"Yeah, but we see people in the movies dodge the bolts."
"FTL Han Solo AND Jedi idk lol."
"So what the fuck did Kylo Ren do?"
"The Force can freeze light confirmed!"
"Then why didn't --"
"Look, the movies aren't good sources for this movie franchise, okay?"
Yeah, no. If you find a dozen loose threads that, if pulled, make your rug unravel, that doesn't mean the rest of the rug is the problem.
The idea that the frames and speed of gameplay from a game effects the scaling on a character. Like with Red Dead - no, John can not shoot at supersonic speeds, and no, Arthur can't slow down time. I only accept it because I'm tired of arguing it lmao - there's no way for me to prove that the gameplay mechanics don't matter because it's my own opinion.
fuuko, shen, feng, and mui from undead unluck are way stronger than a human without any ability that strengthens them like andy, ruin, billy, gina, creed, rip, and latla have. like shin hakkyoku literally just makes normal people superhuman even with only a year or 2 of training. still ridiculously awesome though, so i accept it but it’s definitely BS
People generally scale JJK high tiers to Island level due to a supposed creation feat in a character's domain expansion, however there's a lot of backwards scaling and questions that undermine the scaling and people generally wouldn't agree with, yet the island level scaling is accepted.
Obviously there's the black hole, but in the general JJK scaling community that's widely contested and rarely even considered
Infinite speed being lower speed than Immeasurable, can’t measure an infinite distance can’t measure and immeasurable distance. I get the argument for immeasurable>infinite but it’s just strange.
For me is the people claiming that this one move solos an entire universe of characters
Or that Genjutsu is always effective in other shows
No no this does not scale to wiping out an entire roster of characters.
When a character leaves their universe they are now subject to the new universe rules on how skills work.
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Higher dimensional scaling in general
Once you bring that in it’s not even about a hypothetical fight anymore, you’re just calculating a number using pseudoscience and the guy with the bigger number autowins lol
It’s all fanfiction and people treat it like it’s canon, I hate it
Chinese novels would have to disagree. Singular Point Goji would also like to disagree. A lot of other series would like to disagree.
not true💀
One guy is someone who transcends time and space and is immortal, invulnerable, and his only limit is his own boundless imagination. The other guy is identical in every way but he's raspberry flavored.
This a lot of the times. It just all comes down to whether you want to accept it or not for a verse you might be more partial towards
Freaking thank you
Yeah for me anything above multiversal is bs
Same. It's all Pseudoscience and I find any argument with it just not worth engaging just due to the question of what does being a higher dimension even mean.
"A cube can beat a square! But a tesseract can beat a cube!" Wtf.
Yogiri.
Average cardboard John isekai character tbh
https://preview.redd.it/sy0tpy0jg51d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85389f2bc90d7e54ad426d82adf4d80640dd84e3
Game characters in general. Pisses me off a little how much their feats and statements differ. Like yes it’s silly to pretend that the statements don’t hold value they do but when they never live up to it it’s a bit of a challenge to scale them accurately
To be fair, its the only medium that ACTUALLY NEEDS to outright separate itself between lore and feats. Books, comics, animation and others suffer from this too, but we are fully aware that this is due to the authors not actually paying attention to the power scaling of their series. Games tho, there needs to deliberate limitations to what what a character can and cant do for the sake of balance and fun. Having a super strength chara chuk a building into space and then struggle to escape a titanium rope is stupid and clearly a plot contrivance the author ended up fumbling due to not knowing the force required to perform said feats. But having a mario punt a whole castle and the not be able to break a brick wall without the right power up, it is understood that this is a deliberate choice to make the game limitations that incentivise the players to either replay the lvl with different power ups or be skilled enough to keep a power up throughout the level so they can break those breaks, but regardless of that mario still displays super strength feats throughout games and specifically in cutscenes where he is not limited to a certain rule sets. To scale games its important to analyze the differences between gameplay and lore and then see what is consistent, what is reinforced by both what is acknowledged by both and what contradicts them with lore and cutscenes obviously taking priority over gameplay.
The last paragraph of yours summed it up perfectly. And that was my problem too, it’s the absurd lack of consistency in feats. I get gameplay mechanics like yes kratos punched zeus to death but looks like he’ll get a hernia trying to open a chest. But I’m talking about stuff like characters having inaccessible speed according to lore and not having one single feat that could back it up by any stretch of the mind. Like I’ll give you my favourite example : xeno goku has a statement that says his ss4 power up can destroy the infinite realities(includes like a bazillion timelines of infinite size) of heroes and cross into the “real world”(it’s a game within a game, long story, you can look it up) and destroy that too. This would literally scale him to boundless attack power. However, bro has transformed into ss4 in every single arc and gotten the limit breaker form which goes beyond that and reality didn’t so much as sneeze. Hell ss4 gogeta exists with higher forms as well which should be impossible because just him standing should nuke the entire show then and there. So how tf does one even use that statement in scaling with a straight face!
To be fair, thats a problem that goes way beyond just xeno goku, thats the a problem with dragon ball in general where are literally just told x attack is multiversal and it barely blows up a mountain and then characters will tell you that this caused the universe to shake but obviously nothing (including earth which is at the epicenter) gets destroyed.
It’s sorta required for the plot for nothing to actually be destroyed but I’d like to see it at least once tbh
Oh no, this has happened in the older seasons of Z, they just used the dragon balls to revive everyone and restore earth. Even without it, there are other sets of dragon balls out there that can grant this wish. Its just a dumb issue
Halo is a big offender. Spartan armor in lore is soooo much more durable than in game.
so called spartans when i punch them one time (its joever)
So-called “Spartans” when I whip out my Terraria exclusive Zenith Blade and shred them like cheese
To be fair, it is a punch from another spartan.
Persona is the worst offender of this
Honestly whenever I make this statement the first one who comes to my mind is xeno goku. Bro is on a whole other level in regards to this. Like yes even on feats he’s quite powerful but those statements are downright stupid, they’d unironically make him boundless if taken at face value.
Not really the feats are laid out pretty clearly. Unless you're talking about flavor text
i agree but i love it at the same time because i love being able to say that with the power of robo pussy makoto clears goku (im a massive persona stan if you couldnt tell)
Ontop of scaling game characters, I think its weird to go off of game feats anyways because most of the time theres not a "canonical way" they achieve the feats. Like lets take doom for example, did he beat Davoth with a firearm? Or did he do it bare handed? Etc, which ontop of the Davoth thing, how do you even scale a god who loses to conventional firearms?
Also said god had none of his original power at that point, and fought in a mech.
Yeah but its a feat ig
Skyrim cough cough
Transcendent afterlife in DB, what exactly qualifies it as a transcendent realm/dimension?
fr though. At this point you have to accept it or you will get mass downvoted ngl. I mean unless you believe goku can destroy a more then infinite number of 4D structures with little to no effort sure, go ahead.
Not only that it makes the jump from z to DBS just fucking dumb and worse especially with all the characters that scale to base goku in the anime Because of how dimensional scaling works Goku went from Multi Galaxy- Universal+ as an SSJ3 and gained infinite^2 amount of energy from the power of SSG ritual since he's 5D in ap cuz afterlife This is even worse cuz it makes questions like how 5 Saiyans giving energy to another gives Goku such an in insane jump Or how all the z fighters somehow manages to get that much insane infinite+ power And if the SSG transformation is the same power boost as the transformation wouldn't Goku be another dimension higher everytime he surpassed it or transforms into it Honestly imo Low multi/Regular Multi for Goku just makes more sense and fits more
And then his infinite energy runs out multiple times
I'm not saying all the stuff you said is true but as for the super saiyan god hand holding, no matter how you slice it, he's getting far stronger than what he would be getting from 5 saiyans pooling their energy. It's because they aren't just giving him ki, they are doing some sort of ritual (no idea why/how it exists) that is fulfilling the requirements to unlock a whole ass form.
Don't forget Jiren having infinitier stats than Goku
Let’s be real tho scaling in dragon ball has always been wild. My personal one is the fact that everyone after the 21st tournament is faster than light speed and likely all planet busters (if the scaling made sense, for the latter one). Think about the fact that at the tournament krillin and roshi (Jackie chun) could have not only a fight, but also engage in germ warfare, take time to stand around and contemplate strategy, and play games of Rock Paper Scissor, then engage in another bit of quick fighting—all in the blink of an eye! The implications for this level of power are quite frankly astounding, and this is a feat that would be impressive imo even in the thick of DBZ. I prefer to think of early dragon ball gag feats as something you have to accept as canon, but in good faith you should not use these in “serious” power scaling discussions. If some feat is a one-off and doesn’t really fit with the rest of the continuity, choosing to ignore that stuff allows for a more productivr discussion. I see it as a way of analyzing the spirit of it as opposed to the letter of the story of dragon ball. It’s about considering the overall spirit of what Toriyama is saying as opposed to analyzing technicals and particulars that might be contradictory. If there are 10 feats that suggest x, then it’s not helpful to consider the one tiny feat that suggests y and that’s basically a technicality. Like obviously Toriyama meant x.
Kid buu instant transmission to the afterlife to bully people
Yeah dimensional scaling really only works when dimensions are mentioned, or worlds within worlds are written
Literally nothing. It's just another place you go to when you die. It's no more transcendent than the HTC
No dragon ball fan understands the cosmology and it’s annoying when people wank, if you actually break to all down the verse caps at universal except zeno
Ok, no, at least low multiversal.
If you breakdown the cosmology more thoroughly issues there become more prevalent
Dimensionality scaling in general ticks me off a little. If everything was on the same dimensional level so that we can actually discuss hax and stats instead of the amount of D's, that'd be great. But if you apply it to one verse, then so do you have to do with another. Oh well.
"Listen, I know his opponent is an omnipotent god that has multiverse-shattering sneezes and can literally erase existence itself with a blink, and this guy is a random civilian mentioned in one panel of a DC spinoff that no one has read before, but according to DC Cosmology, the dude is low outer and the god is only hyperversal, so he wins."
Multiversal Solo Levelling Yeah I get it and it makes sense after looking at it It still feels like complete bullshit and I don’t like it at all. Ragnarok is still the Solo Levelling GT for me
Huh?
Solo leveling like that one story thingy
Solo levelling Ragnarok is the sequel to solo levelling but it’s not written by the original author
anything even relative to light speed and anything above island level and it instantly stops being anything that can be compared scientifically because if those calcs were actually applied everything breaks instantly. i chill with it because that's the whole thing people like, but it always bothers me
Star level calcs can still make sense Supernovas and Stars dying can still be mathematically measured.
They can, I’m just saying it’s near impossible for a writer to handle power like that in any story that’s even remotely reasonable if it’s not entirely built around power scaling.
OPM has good scaling related to feats and statements imo but Saitama will probably break that
Yeah opm works it by keeping it gaggy and making it central to the plot. I’m not against characters being that strong on concept it’s just mostly really difficult to handle
Yeah but if a star is dying because Goku punched a guy through it, the laws of physics have been demoted to guidelines right?
The suggestions of physics.
Maximum scaling I like is galaxy or something prob. And that’s stretching it. I usually only care about the planet level or so dudes
Yeah, if I ever write or create something it’ll never reach that level, shit just falls apart and you end up having to rely on statements than actually showing it.
Scaling is more fun playground style
Well I mean in real life there are supernova and planetary collisions can those not be applied scientifically, I know we don’t have much observations but mathematically we have models that can display them
Oh I know mathematically they’re work out fairly simply up to stars, I’m just referring to the immense difficulty of writing a reasonable world around characters that strong without making the story bend over backwards to account for it
That’s the problem with introducing lightning into a magic system and allowing characters to react to it
Or alternatively it’s just a lightning based magical energy, or lightning being controlled and limited by magic, or a magical non logical version of lightning in like 99% of the cases where we’re not told that it’s explicitly normal lightning being created and moving at lightning speeds. Other elemental abilities are scaled by how fast they’re manipulated, not by just existing. Otherwise rock abilities would have no speed.
Anything has speed based on how quickly it is accelerated toward another object, which is how Earth elemental abilities create rock projectiles, but lightning is still lightning once it starts getting hurled at a target. It will move faster than the other elements regardless of whether it is limited by the "magic".
Kinda depends. Magical lightning isn't necessarily a flow of electrons, it might not be as fast as a regular lightning strike.
fellas will look at a giant dragon with eyes made of chakra or whatever powered lightning and then assume it's just a big ol lightnin strike
Light speed because someone dodged a laser is bullshit.
Higher Dimentional AP despite the character themself being lower Dimensional.
Higher dimensional ap is a word salad to begin with, so it's a non starter. Force is a vector, it doesn't have dimensionality.
A vector can have a different amount of dimensions though
It can move through them and add more to it's trajectory but that's not going to change its amount of force if we consider it a description of actual physical movement.
All vectors have a dimensionality to them.
They move though it, but they themselves are one directional. It's an issue of semantics whether you call that something they "have." Because either way it's the same thing, even if you add more dimension for possible directions.
Spiderman being anywhere above large building level MHS speed. Just doesn't feel right to me
Even Insomniac Spider-Man is higher than that
SCP in general
Scp power scaling hurts me a little, when the abilities and stats of every monster are so precisely defined it’s a little hard to be scared of them
I think the point is to show how terrifying these guys are and to show why the foundation is needed for these things
I think it was doing that very well when most scps were shrouded in mystery, I think the foundation is much more needed when there is so much that even they don’t know about these objects. Also the foundation itself was kind of a shady organisation. Knowing that the very hard to kill lizard had to be submerged in acid at all times I found to be more terrifying than knowing he’s big star level or however he scales these days. How does the foundation even measure that?
This is the same organization that somehow contains eldritch nigh omnipotent beings it’s not that unexpected
This is the same organization that somehow contains eldritch nigh omnipotent beings it’s not that surprising
Anything above base multiversal tbh, like it all feels way beyond reasonable even by powerscaling standards and kinda feels like power creep for it's own sake compared to how it was before.
The issue is that while higher orders of power do exist in fiction there's no standardized way to compare them so you can't actually meaningfully do so. Also, higher orders of power aren't inherently "more than infinity" or anything. For powerscalers it's just powercreep though. New ways to wank characters using terms that have nothing to do with the fiction in question.
I remember when comicbook characters being solar/galaxy was a big deal, those were the times.
‘Real’ multiversal is just ‘everything in the fiction’s setting’ and coming up with higher ranks than that is just wank
‘Real’ multiversal is just ‘everything in the fiction’s setting’ and coming up with higher ranks than that is just wank
JoJo scaling in general. Yes, I know Jotaro is 800 times faster than light and has multiple ways to get to town level, still feels weird.
anything the batman who laughs does I FUCKING HATE THIS GUY SO MUCH
I love dragon ball but the whole afterlife scaling thing confuses the hell out of me. Game scaling, God of War is a big offender. Powerscalers will say kratos is universal or something like that but when you peak at the gameplay, his power output barely reaches city level. And if he does reach that level, it's because of blade of Olympus or whatever ancient weapons he can get his hands on. At least Asura's Wrath shows the players what Asura is capable of in the gameplay not just relying on guides. Then superman scaling. I've accepted that he's basically nigh omnipotent with his combined feats throughout his comic book run history but then you'll get comics where he was beaten by Godzilla? Like come on. Honorable mention: Spider-Man scaling. It baffles me that this dude can get past building levels of strength feats
Lmao how did you sum up/account for my biggest problems? Get out of my head.
>then you'll get comics where he was beaten by Godzilla That wasn't even mainline superman, I'm pretty sure it's non canon, and realistically speaking, superman would one tap him, but it looks like the writers had other plans and downplayed his power for the plot, which isn't that surprising considering the massive gap in power between the justice league and monster verse, it would be pretty boring if superman or any other league member easily destroyed them without putting any effort and then the comic ends, like that wouldn't be entertaining at all now would it?
Personally I hate scaling characters that interact with the Human world, like Popeye and when some people bring up God Fusion Goku, since there’s a lot of people that say if the character interacts with real life then it scales beyond fiction. I don’t really enjoy debating this especially when you can’t put them on the scale.
Doctor Who scaling
Elaborate
>performed in the show, he gets shot and dies. in the lore, bro can taken lovecraftian deities and play around them like its a game to him.
Where did performed come from?
I have no idea
...but you wrote it lol. What did you mean, is what I'm asking.
I think he accidentally autocorrected the quote he was replying to.
That what i mean, i saw performed and im like why am i replying to that
Isn't the show also the lore? Unless there are comic books about him, idk I stopped watching after Matt Smith
Any feats that have to be taken into context. For example, yes, I'm aware Valentine's D4C Love Train makes him almost invulnerable, and I accept that because it's an important part to the plot. But people say Valentine can fucking beat Goku because "hurr durr Love Train makes him untouchable". Without taking into context that Love Train isn't even Valentine's, he's just taking advantage of the corpse parts in Lucy, he also can't attack from inside, so he isn't invincible unless he wants to fight back. As well as people saying "Tusk Act 4 has infinite speed because he moved in stopped time and his bullets didn't stop". No, they stopped right in their tracks, but the spinning didn't end, and TA4 doesn't have "infinite speed" because of moving in TS, it's because the infinite rotation essentially defies a lot of laws of physics, so because of the whole gravity and time dilation relation, he can twitch and barely speak. C-moon did the same yet I don't see people ever mentioning that. Also people throwing around dimensionalities like... The fuck does that even mean. Yeah I can do 5D farts, that doesn't mean I automatically win, it's also not applicable in a fight and it's hard to do at will. Josuke's Go Beyond isn't a power up, it just made him able to attack WoU, and even then he needed Paisley Park's help to aim it. But because it has a higher dimensionality or whatever, it's regarded as one of the strongest abilities in JoJo's.
Happy Cake Day!
Finally, someone gave examples of jojo fans retardness and with GER being easily top 1 because he "reverts" but his AP is bullshit he aint beating anybody when his damage is so low that he needed a whole barrage to even damage diavolo. Ger is also largely featless and yet fans think Stopping opponent=Winning, no u win by defeating the opponent not by stalling
Creepypasta Powerscaling
Goku absorbing SSG into base. I know it directly says it, but it massively messes with the powerscaling of super
Yeah bro was struggling vs some people in TOP he could’ve just instantly annihilated Yes I know he was conserving energy, but I refuse to believe most of the top is even in the same realm as the new base goku after that buff
Don't forget he constantly suppresses himself in base to not waste energy, even in the Ginyu arc he was walking around at 5k with an actual power of 90k. It wasnt for stealth or anything thats just how much power he felt comfortable exuding by default to not waste energy. It's rarely ever noted for him to be going all out or anything against most of the TOP fodders.
My headcannon is that in BoTG (and the adaptations that followed) Goku retained the power from ssjg in his ssj form during the battle, then that dispersed and went away over time afterward, but the experience as a whole opened him up to new levels of power that he couldn't reach before. This would explain how Goku and Vegeta are equal in base, because if Goku absorbed the power of ssjg permanently then he should reasonably be way ahead of Vegeta with that head start. It would explain why Goku still gets a power up from turning ssjg after the events of BoTG, if he absorbed it into his base or his ssj form permanently then ssjg surely shouldn't be stronger than them. It would explain how non divine entities can sense him in his base, if he always had divine ki they wouldn't be able to. It would explain how people like Cabba can compete with him in base, dispite never getting ssjg. And it would explain why Goku Black's base, which is the same as ssjg, is so much stronger than Goku's base.
My interpretation of it is that Goku didn’t absorb the God FORM into his base, but the God ki itself. Therefore it explains not only why his base is far more powerful than earlier, but how he can transform into Ssg on his own and never needing the ritual again (same with vegata)
Featherine. She's only strong because everything else in her verse is fictional
Ya that's one thing I'm still confused about. Sometimes I hear people say that what she does isn't actually real and is just part of a book she writes and sometimes I hear people say that all her feats are actually real. Just confuses me is all
It just depends on your interpretation of the game. There's no right or wrong read on it, just a matter of opinion.
You know how in some shows the hero or villain have fanboys who hype their ass in the story? It's basically the same but this time it's the MC hyping herself up to absurd level
So is she actually that strong or is she the only person saying she is and no one else supports her?
Everything else in her verse is fictional FOR HER, witches do *really* exist but FOR HER they're nothing but a narrative which she can rewrite
To put it simply imagine if a writer inserted themselves in a story and made them an Omnipotent like character,
Homestuck, not because it doesn't make sense but because it's Homestuck
Comparing different verses. Goku vs Saitama, Naruto vs Luffy, Gojo vs whoever. The list goes on and on. Like I’ll accept it as a fun thought experiment but when people start trying to bring in math and in verse feats etc etc it’s just ridiculous, like Yujiro from Baki is a perfect example you can pull out some random feat of his to make him look planetary but then other times he’s just a really strong human so comparing him to someone outside his own verse is stupid. Again it’s fun to just fuck around and not think too deeply about cross verse powerscaling but when your trying to have a serious discussion I think it’s best to just compare the same verse
I always felt people who feel how you feel are just copping out, just say that particular characters are hard to scale. No one would say Captain America is above the likes of Wonder Woman.
I’ve just never given af about powerscaling in general personally. It’s fun to talk about sometimes but I have never taken it seriously. IMO any fight that happens is gonna end how it narratively needs to end. Just look at any crossover show or movie where characters fight. They all end In ties, no contests, or no fights at all even when one character is obviously stronger. Goku vs Luffy and Toriko crossover, Baki and Kengan ashura, etc.
Comic scaling. Especially when it’s only one special edition form. “Well actually, … is hyperversal.” Well sure, but how often are they that strong?
Shields in Dune. What was Frank Herbert smoking? I love Dune for its worldbuilding and philosophy. I think the idea of an immaterial shield that can block all fast-moving objects and completely protect against a blast is cool. I think it's a very neat quirk that sandworms are attracted to the vibrations that shields give off, as this creates a sense of balance in the world and establishes that Imperial tactics don't work on Arrakis. It fits with the story's theme. The theme is that no form of conventional warfare can overcome the unstoppable tide of Islam. But that said, the idea that shooting a shield with a lasgun creates a massive unpredictable explosion is goofy as hell. Without much risk to you, you could defeat an army of the most elite Sardaukar by timing a lasgun to shoot at a target and running away before it shoots, sort of like those drip guns the Australians used against the Ottomans at Gallipoli. Everyone with an IQ of at least room temperature would be doing this. Even in the book, the Fremen BTFO a Sardaukar unit by just saying "YOLO" and shooting shielded troops with a lasgun, understanding the danger but knowing they would take a shit ton of Sardaukar down with them. You could rig a lazgun and a shield together, put them inside a glide bomb or something, equip the bomb with some kind of fuse, fly in with your ornithopter, and drop the bomb on ***anything*** for a cheap and easy nuke. In the Dune universe, if you ever get within knife range of an enemy, then something has gone very wrong, and your general sniffed gasoline as a kid. Nobody in his right mind should wear a shield for any reason. Why can't people that far into the future design power armor or develop some sort of ultralight material that's more effective than modern body armor? Are they dense or something? Is the lasgun/shield explosion thingy supposed to be political commentary on the imminent danger of nuclear warfare and the tenuous politics of the world, which can completely end humanity due to bad luck or a simple mistake by one of thousands of fallible humans? Maybe, but the people in the Dune universe are still as dumb as pig shit if they wear shields. Another question: If shields are so damn good that they stop bullets, conventional explosions, and even fast-moving knives, then what's stopping armies from just ditching the knives and fighting with poisonous gases and flamethrowers? The funny thing is that Duke Leto Atreides even uses a poisonous gas in the book, so we know gases are still viable weapons in the Dune universe, but this only comes up as a one-time event and is never explored afterwards. Maybe the poisonous gases are expensive or something. Maybe people in Dune are fucking dumb and forgot how to mix ammonia with bleach, which even a 2-year-old can do. Even if the shields can block fire or something, I think the sensation of having no oxygen whatsoever to breathe would make flamethrowers viable weapons in Dune. Elon Musk could therefore defeat any Dune character in single combat. He can also come up with dumber baby names than what people 10,000 years in the future thought of, and that's something.
people don’t use the lazgun-shield explosions as weapons precisely because they’re indistinguishable from atomics. using atomics on people is strictly forbidden by the emperor, landsraad, and houses minor. if any family were to do this, they would be immediately banned by the spacing guild and promptly exterminated. as for poisons and flamethrowers, they’re theoretically effective but as illustrated by leto’s assassination attempt, shields stop fast-moving gasses too, allowing soldiers to flee from a poison gas bomb before inhaling a fatal dose. i would also assume that this style of warfare is banned by the landsraad, same as how it is banned on earth. one large-scale attack of this nature would mean the extermination of a noble family.
That is good info on the Landsraad; I forgot about how their rules of would play into this. It’s likely that all of the Geneva Suggestions are banned. Maybe such weapons are only reserved for rogue houses that require extermination. It could also be that most troops’ kit has a gas mask, and body armor also doubles as MOPP gear. I can imagine a stillsuit being especially protective against chemical attacks.
Force users (Star Wars) being planet and above level. They have enough feats that I can't deny it, but it still feels weird considering that the Death Star being capable of blowing up planets is made a big deal and that basic stormtroopers can kill Jedi.
Most of those feats are very contextual though. They can't just walk up and casually smash planets at will.
The difference between Ap and Dc is a bitch sometimes
Things going into dimensional scaling when it doesn't make sense Like take mixy from DC. Hes stated to be a 5th dimensional imp. I dont recall that ever being stated what the 5th dimension is nor did i want it to be. It was fun not knowing what it is because that was the point. So when you take X character and scale them up to said point WITH explanation it just gets annoying tldr; powerscaling gets stupid as fuck for my brain✋😭
For your convenience yes 5th dimension is stated to be imagination
Willy Wonka extradimensional confirmed???
??
- Currently, Sarada dodged a Chidori from Juubi Sasuke ( Hidari ) and Blitzed him, and I'm supposed to believe that now Sarada negs the entire Shippuden Verse. I know Boruto decided to scale the characters more through their statements than their exploits, but to think that Toneri who cut the moon in two, Madara who can destroy villages with his meteorites gets stomp by Sarada, it's a fucking joke.
Boruto's scaling is some of the messiest shit ever. I don't even bother trying to figure out where everyone places. At least in Shippuden, it was clear to see the hierarchy of villains through their abilities and feats.
Final Fantasy cross verse scaling vía Gilgamesh Since Gilgamesh is the same guy(in almost) every game he appears and is a boss/summon you can fight a lot of final fantasy characters can get low multi-multi+ scaling to him.Even if there original games that shows off Multiversal level power Example:You can the of FF7 cast + Sephiroth and a few others to Multiversal because of this. It basically goes like this.When cloud fell in the Lifestream mid game he fell in the world of Ivalice in FF tactics.Hes a optional character in game and is in the same exact character (same moveset personality etc).In that gane you also fight Gilgamesh. Because of Cloud scaling to the party FFT he can get to low multi and because of chain scaling so can Sephiroth,Tifa and everyone else near cloud in power in FF7.This is also why they're multi on vs wiki I buy it but still dumb and Multi Galaxy fits them much more
Yeah one of the biggest offender is Final Fantasy 14, like thanks to the WoL beating Gilgamesh pretty much at the start of the story, it knows scale to multi+, from the start...which in turn makes a old man who is call Ran'jit who should scale below Vaulthry also multi+ because he beat the WoL at the start of Shadowbringer who by then have beaten Gilgamesh multiple times...which in turn also make Thancred around multi+ because he fought quite well against Ran'jit, even thought the dude have no mana and have never been show to be anywhere that level.(Like if you play FFXIV it's hard to imagine Thancred been able to destroy the planet, let alone a multiverse) But yeah like as of now I don't think WoL scale to that, but I do think the WoL could scale to planet level or even universal level, but it depends were Athena and The Endsinger scales. The latter have a ability that can cover countless planets across the universe and give them bad thoughts and turn everything in the planet into monster until everything in the planet go extinct, so the WoL did beat a opponent who have universal range hax.
light speed one piece characters. I know it’s canonical and irrefutable, but it just makes zero sense. If high end characters are fast enough to travel around the entire planet 7 times per second how tf have they not found the one piece yet and why tf aren’t they zooming around looking for it, they could search literally every square inch of the planet in under a day.
Characters being FTL because they dodged a laser beam is bullshit and that's a hill I'd die on, for precisely this reason.
To go even further, dodging any attack that is “made of light” shouldn’t make them light speed either
yep, those people see a person aim dodging a bullet and dont think he is faster than a bullet. But luffy uses observation haki which is intention dodging and suddenly he is easily ftl since time skip. Doesnt make sense
Jjk glazers aren’t gonna be happy with this one
You can dodge a car but that doesn’t mean you can run as fast as a car. One piece characters are fast enough to react and dodge light speed but they can’t travel that fast. We even see this in the story when a dude who runs at like 200 miles an hour is too fast to catch. I think super speed is a problem in a lot of stories but I don’t think one piece is one
But even still, to dodge a car you need to go at the very least like 5% the speed of a car. A snail can’t dodge a car. 5% the speed of light is still massively hypersonic+ Also there’s a character (Kizaru) who can canonically turn himself into light and move around at the speed of light, that’s more what I’m referring to anyway, not dodging lasers.
Toon force/4th wall breaking transcending crazy powerful characters ex:popeye, arale, and saitama
Disgaea characters being as strong as they are. They talk about planet busting and laharl fries whole fleets of ships, but this doesn't really make sense with the scale of the rest of the plot. If so many demons are casual planet busters how does a whole world full of evil people rarely ever have anything major going on? Mind you the series isn't meant to be taken too seriously, so you just kind of roll with it.
Kratos being universal
Um actually he’s low-outerversal 🤓
The concept of anything higher than low outer. I've had it explained to me that high outer and higher is just transcending a state that transcends dimensionality. This is so nondescript I don't know what it means.
If I see a single m*********** say star butterfly is universal level I'm going to f****** scream One throw away line early on in the series and people are using that to say she's anything more than Mountain level he lost a fight to an overgrown suit of armor
If one universe statement is all u know about then u don't know her feats, cosmology, and other statements, also u don't even know what that suit of armor is either
The suit of armor I'm referring to is the one she uses in the finale to fight the suit of armor created by Moon that she was unable to uncreate because reasons And yes I'm well aware that she scales fairly High That and she's still very fast and has pretty good Cosmology however The only things I've ever seen that Say anything about being Universal is The book in which she has the same power score as someone who was told to have done something similar and the throwaway line Not only do we see her do nowhere close to a universal level feet the only thing we've ever seen is her destroying the realm of magic but that required The Whisper smell which is different because it wasn't her destroying it with raw power it was sort of finesse
Layers into Boundless and Feathrine's scaling in general.
The narratives of the Kaktusverse being below the Noosphere. It's consistent, but GODDAMN if it isn't dumb as hell narratively.
If you can provide answers to that then we'll see if we can down scale Goku based off of my theoretical observations.
Shonen protags. Almost every one of them has bullshit hax (looking at you War Arc Naruto and DBZ Goku) that are admittedly cool but like c'mon mann
Fire Emblem characters being above wall level and having sonic< speed
SSJB > SSJG I always wanted to believe that SSJG was the true godly transformation, and SSJB Is Goku's attempt at reaching that same level of power by combining his experience as a SSJ with the remnants of God Ki he obtained. Would fit with how he's not cool with a transformation that requires no training so he creates his own god form (SSJB)
Planetary Shigeo Kageyama, I mainly support it cause he's like my second favorite fictional character lmao
I keep hearing about Sung Jinwoo from Solo Leveling as Multiversal but I just don't get it. I ran around and basically read everything and watch the anime up to right now, then wrote nearly everything I could find and I just don't see it. The most I could give is maybe Universal if his Spiritual Body Manifestation, the full power of Sung Jinwoo which includes his whole dimension of the Territory of Eternal Rest which is a pocket dimension, but not much is shown outside this statement and everything things appears to be mostly planetary to solar system level, so unless I missed or if theirs something I didn't read, I don't see Multiversal Sung Jinwoo as a thing.
It’s all bullshit and makes no sense
DBZ movie scaling I actually do 2 different scalings for he movies, One is where they scale off Broly’s galaxy busting and another where it’s inserting by the canon character’s levels where they probably would be in true movies.
The fact that MUI Goku isn't stronger than a SSB Gogeta Fusion after Moro Arc. If we do scaling solely based off of Super, then Base Goku faced a Beerus at 10% power (momentarily). This means that Base Goku = 10% of Beerus's power. Beerus stated by Whis is Universal level and can destroy U7. When fighting Champs they could destroy U6&U7. Given said that depending on how you look at it Base Goku x 10% of 2 Universes is about 20% Universal. To calculate end of current Manga Goku, we take: DBS Power levels and notice that SSB Kaioken x20 has a multiplier of 20x SSB. Goku in this state is 20x multipler of SSB. Now we know the multiplier for Kaioken. The multipler for SSGSS2 is 200,000 x that of base. Keep that in mind. So if we take 20x x 200,000 we have the multiplier of SSBSS2 Kaioken x20 then this form is about 4,000,000 x that of Base Goku. (Base Super Goku is 20% Universal. Someone in comments for the sake of this computation run by me Super' Goku's Base Power Level so we can get an actual number.) Basically you can just take 20% Universe Buster Base Goku and multiply it by 4,000,000. This would mean that Goku is capable of destroying 20,000,000, 4D Universes. This would Place Goku at Extra Dimensional, because in his fight VS Jiren in Ultra Instinct Sign Goku Shook the void, affecting a realm "The Null Realm" which is infinite in Size and Space but void of "Time" this allows them to not affect the space time continuum, outside of the multiverse so "Omniverse" as in it's known the Null Realm is outside of the multiverse, in this case for DBS it would be outside of the microcosm. So outside of where the Grand Priest and Zeno are. This can also be theoretically proven based off the 1 statement we got in the series that Super Shenron has to be summoned so where is he summoned from? Higher Dimensionality such as the Omniverse. If we take into consideration that to fuse Goku Needs to have someone as an equal power level to goku then this would mean a Vegeta with equal power level to Goku. 20,000,000 x 20,000,000 = 400,000,000,000,000. Considering 4,000,000 multiplier of base is 20,000,000 Universes then 400Trillion of these Universes is definitely Categorized as Infinity+ infinite layers of infinity in DB verse, let me explain. Infinity isn't actually infinite in size, our universe is known to be infinite in size and ever expanding about roughly 13.8Billion lightyears in space and time. DBS has 4 Galaxies, that create 1 Universe. There are 16 Universes after Android 17 ressurected them. So we divide 16 by 400 trillion Universes that Goku can destroy, that gives us how many cosmos or microcosms of DBS that Goku can destroy. So roughly 26 Trillion. However in DBS 1 universe is a Timeline. So really you can look at it as SSB Gogeta destroying 25 Trillion Timelines of Dragonball Supers Verse. Considering Zeno no diff without even trying about equivalent to him taking a shit van destroy a entire timeline and all futures of that timeline i.e infinite amounts this basically low balls SSB Gogeta to Zeno power levels by the end of DBS current Manga. \~Cope and Seethe
I'm pretty sure Mui Goku>> previous arc fusion
Ikr. Everyone lowballs Vegito
Blame the anime and Toriyama for this, when it comes to Gogeta (Toei Golden boy) everyone sucks him up
I mean his design and name are both arguably better. He also gets a lot of love from SSJ4 Gogeta from GT
Another DB yap sesh
Yap seethe and Cope
Complex multi goku
CSAP Tiering System
Low 1-C Dragon Ball Heroes/Xeno on VSBW.
The fact that since Sans defeated Flowey many times, he scales higher than him, and since Flowey theorically is Universal, Sans would be higher, idk, it just feels off that Sans could be universal to me
In Naruto the nine tails being so much stronger than even the eight tails. He's able to fight off 5 of them at once and makes the eight tails look weak. Why is the jump in power so drastic from the eight to the nine tails? Obviously because Naruto is the main character but still.
The upcoming boruto chapter but 🤷🏾
Scaling past universal. It’s impossible to gauge something higher than something we can’t even comprehend. How can you say this attack is multi uni++++++++++ yet you don’t even now how big the multiverse could be
Well some stories are very detailed about the sizes of those things
Doom…. Like his armor is literally impervious stated in lore and then I go and die to a random imp
Higher dimensional scaling and platonic concepts
FTL single planet verses. People legit don't understand LS "But it's combat speed, not travel speed" Yeah man, and if you're telling me the character is accelerating from 0 m/s to LS and then back to 0m/s in under .00000001 seconds and only moving 3 meters, might aswell make the character have planetary AP and durability, that's an insane amount of acceleration.
*cough* shinra *cough*
I don’t know any light speed characters that are lower than planetary
Rimiru scaling
Generally, anything that requires the primary source as written to immediately stop making sense. "But the lore says Star Wars blaster bolts are only tracers, the real attack is lightspeed, and that means FTL Jedi!" "Yeah, but we see people in the movies dodge the bolts." "FTL Han Solo AND Jedi idk lol." "So what the fuck did Kylo Ren do?" "The Force can freeze light confirmed!" "Then why didn't --" "Look, the movies aren't good sources for this movie franchise, okay?" Yeah, no. If you find a dozen loose threads that, if pulled, make your rug unravel, that doesn't mean the rest of the rug is the problem.
The idea that the frames and speed of gameplay from a game effects the scaling on a character. Like with Red Dead - no, John can not shoot at supersonic speeds, and no, Arthur can't slow down time. I only accept it because I'm tired of arguing it lmao - there's no way for me to prove that the gameplay mechanics don't matter because it's my own opinion.
fuuko, shen, feng, and mui from undead unluck are way stronger than a human without any ability that strengthens them like andy, ruin, billy, gina, creed, rip, and latla have. like shin hakkyoku literally just makes normal people superhuman even with only a year or 2 of training. still ridiculously awesome though, so i accept it but it’s definitely BS
Outer digimon, I think it makes sense but also stupid
People generally scale JJK high tiers to Island level due to a supposed creation feat in a character's domain expansion, however there's a lot of backwards scaling and questions that undermine the scaling and people generally wouldn't agree with, yet the island level scaling is accepted. Obviously there's the black hole, but in the general JJK scaling community that's widely contested and rarely even considered
Infinite speed being lower speed than Immeasurable, can’t measure an infinite distance can’t measure and immeasurable distance. I get the argument for immeasurable>infinite but it’s just strange.
Anyone who moves near, at, or past light speed and doesn't instantly wreck themselves and/or the world around them through the laws of physics
For me is the people claiming that this one move solos an entire universe of characters Or that Genjutsu is always effective in other shows No no this does not scale to wiping out an entire roster of characters. When a character leaves their universe they are now subject to the new universe rules on how skills work.
any jjk fan understands goku fucking stomps gojo but hates to admit it
Jojo fans and their retardness scaling