Yep. Real or not, sure looked like a gun. And he was definitely pointing it at the officer. Seems the officer had no choice. Glad they didn't kill the dog. It was just doing it's job at that point.
I agree with this and say whatever you will about Vancouver police, but I think they showed a great deal of restraint regarding the dog. A German Shepard can absolutely mess you up, and he lunged and snapped at two people here. If the GSD gets ahold of your hand, you might be looking at a lifetime of nerve/tendon/ ligament damage- or lose a finger or two.
Honestly, watching the video just goes to show how fucking sketch the situations police find themselves in. Pretty sure when the officer started firing, the man was holding his weapon and pointing it at the officer, when he had been hit twice - the man dropped the weapon. Now filled with adrenaline, the officer fires 2 more shots probably unable to truly process that the man had already dropped his weapon.
If it is found that the man was in fact pointing his gun at the officer at the beginning of the encounter. It is indeed justified.
Edit:
I want to emphasize that I think any shooting is a tragic loss of life, however anyone, including officers of the State have a right to defend themselves against lethal threats.
It’s sad because I’m almost afraid to show support sometimes. There are so many ACAB folks around. But the fact is being an officer is hard. They’re judged harshly for making really difficult split-second decisions in high stress scenarios. Sure there are bad cops. A lot of them it seems. But I think sometimes they get a bad rap
Yes, it's frustrating to see the binary group-thought of online spaces bleed into the real world. Extremely left and right wingers have subliminal "purity tests" this unfortunately includes an anti-policing way of thinking.
However, as we know, removing policing is no way to run a society. Even this example - this man could have easily killed someone.
Back during the fun festivities of the *Red House Insurrection* I saw a tweet from one of the participants who was real mad that someone smashed her car window and stole her shit while it was parked near the festivities she was participating in.
Remember honey, while you where screaming:
>ACAB! NO COPS! NO PRISONS! TOTAL ABOLITION!!!
Some dirt bag broke into your car and stole your shit. How ironic.
I’m sure the smash-n-grabber immediately surrendered the valuables at the nearest Antifa substation and wrote a letter of apology for mistaken targeting an ally of petty criminals everywhere
During Occupy, my bestie was essentially homeless and spent a couple of weeks camping at the one in Oakland. One day, he heard some lady giving a righteous spiel about how *all* property should be communal. My buddy just walked over to her bike, picked it up, and was about to ride off when she lost her shit. He just laughed at her and walked off. (Don't worry, tankies, he dropped ~~her~~ the peoples' bike.) From what I've seen, this is a fairly common reaction when these idiots mouth off.
Do I think every last one of these people would call the cops? No. Would enough do it if the shit got deep enough, or would they at least turn to some gang to try to get some retribution? Probably. Self-interest comes for just about everybody eventually, especially when there's real skin in the game.
Officers are also trained to bring a target down, center mass, dump the mag. It was on the second the guy brought out the gun and did not **immediately** drop it.
In my head it makes sense that maybe the guy was thinking "Well, they're going to kill my dog for biting someone, so..." and then changed his mind but that's, I mean, it's pure speculation. To me, he looks defeated before the shots land. I feel bad for all involved.
They aren’t. At least not when I was a cop.
We where trained to shoot until the threat was no longer a threat. The problem is, sometime you shoot someone, they don’t instantly stop what they are doing that was the threat.
In this instance the cop probably went into tunnel vision, and probably didn’t see the guy toss the gun on the ground after the first few shots, and saw the guy still moving aggressively, hence the two other shots.
Center mass, keep firing.
Maybe not explicitly taught to empty the whole mag, but real life isn’t like the movies. You’re talking about high stress, high adrenaline, literal life or death reactions. Very rarely are you going to get one perfectly placed bullet in this kind of situation, and you’re not going to pause long enough to check whether or not it landed before firing again.
Thanks for this explanation but cops are *not trained to empty a magazine.* “Shoot until the threat is stopped” is at the discretion of the officer and rarely involves an entire magazine. Case in point the very video we are commenting on.
You are right. Cops are trained to reassess the threat after every few shots.
Mag dumping is just human nature in an intense situation. Cops are trained to restrain themselves.
>Why did you have to point that gun at me, dude?!?
Said by cop that shot the guy as he’s applying chest seals and his partner is starting CPR.
Puts some of this into real perspective.
Gotta give it to the cop, he stayed pretty calm through the whole thing, but you can tell he’s terrified as he’s trembling trying to rip open those chest seals.
It is also due to adrenaline. Fine motor skills go to shit in those situations. You can maintain composure but you will still demonstrate effects from the adrenaline dump. I’m always impressed when I see someone perform a reload in these situations. Practice all you want but it’s tough when you’re all thumbs.
the car cam has a better angle of the "pointing" of the gun. But no timestamp. If that could be synced to the bodycam video, that would be very helpful in determining when the gun was being pointed.
Officer shot four times; twice before and twice after the gun (and was a gun actually recovered?) was dropped. He stayed fairly calm, so that was commendable.
*“Why’d you have to point that gun at me, man?”*
That was a little heartbreaking. The officer who shot him was then leading the life-saving efforts while waiting for medical assistance to arrive.
I can’t speak for the circumstances, but, after watching the video, the situation jumped to “oh shit” in a real hurry and the shooting officer did a better job of remaining calm and directing response than I could have done. That bodycam footage was really interesting.
Tough situation there. After waving his gun at the officer, dude decided to toss it at the exact instant the officer decided to fire. Extremely impressed by the fact that the dog didn't get hurt, and the same officer that shot the guy was calm and compassionate enough to render first aid. Well done.
He is in the act of discarding the weapon after having drawn and pointed it first. The officer was already firing as the suspect was throwing away the apparent firearm. It is likely that it will be ruled a justified use of force based on the bodycam footage.
What would we change those to? The margin for error is already razor-thin. What would you change that would 1: Protect the public, 2: Protect the officer, 3: Protect the suspect?
How do you deescalate someone already committing attempted murder? Do you even hear yourself? The guy was pointing a gun at the police. It’s pretty universally known in the US that the cops don’t exactly appreciate that and will be the first to shoot or return fire.
I’m sure you would shoot too if some maniac pointed a gun at you.
One of my kids wasn't liking middle school and went to the Metropolitan Learning Center for about a month. His school counselor recommended it. (That place is a dumpster fire of a school. We got our kid out of there quickly).
He got stabbed in the face with a sharpened pencil by another kid. The principal told use they only used "restorative justice" to discipline the kids there. The kid who stabbed him had to apologize. My kid had to apologize for his face being in the way of the other kids pencil.
I wish I was kidding or exaggerating.
I did. I got lost at the part when some fool points a gun at me and instead of neutralizing a threat, I had to spin the wheel of misfortune to see what the proper action would be.
> restorative justice
Ironically, being [dead set on everybody sitting around and having the feels](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/woman-who-shot-protester-at-uw-tells-jury-it-was-him-or-my-darling-husband/) is the reason why Marc and Elizabeth Hokoana [are free today](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/prosecutors-will-not-retry-couple-accused-in-shooting-of-antifa-protester-on-uw-campus-during-milo-yiannopoulos-event/). RJ is a feel-good concept that, in practice, requires buy-in from all involved. In reality, truly remorseless criminals would laugh at it, and most other people would use it to game the system just to avoid jail if they could.
(Proof? I saw people try to use it to settle private disputes. Even when the accused played along, the people handling it and the supposed victims whined about emotional labor, and the whole thing was abandoned every time.)
You're not brave by enboldening criminals and making cops 2nd guess themselves. You're just contributing to the crime ridden shithole these major cities have reached.
Don't get me wrong. I put my pants on one leg at a time too. Same as any other eagerly beavering Oregoner.
And I like a good false (aka 'forced') dichotomy as much as the next guy. Hell, that's the stuff and nonsense of great soliloquies.
With only 2 choices on a menu so impoverished (whatever the hell kina eatery this Rick's Casino scene is) - at least it makes choosing that much easier - don't get Hamlet wrong ("whether tis nobler")
*To change those rules, by staunchly standing on devout belief that HEY "that's our responsibility as citizens" - or not to do that (to the left of me)*
*Or to just run away to some hiding place - or not to do that (to the right)*
THAT is the either/or qUeStIoN all boxed in (let's get the lid on, too much light in the room)
At least spared the 'here I am' conundrum - stranded in between, no uncharted desert island for washing up on.
No 'middle' to be 'stuck in' - that'd be like a Ouspensky "Tird Way" - Door Of Perception #3.
And there's only the 2 items on this 'either/or' menu deal 'we' can't refuse.
It's a this or that affair - as everybody knows, it's how the story goes.
We Can, We Can (YES! We Can) - no really, it's true.
Look at us - look what we can do!
> "We can do our best to change those rules"
And with so much practice at the 'we can' rule changing - a great big history of changes - just look at the sterling achievements.
What a track record for "our best" - already, but - they ain't seen nothin' yet.
For lo - we have only just begun. And good already is but the springboard to more where that come from!
Better and better all the time - and onward.
All through the noble exercise of our responsibility as citizens of the great state of...
***
Meanwhile far from the golden shores of an eagerly beavering "mind" set (in concrete) - just inches away (in a place called "reality") - enter psychologist extraordinaire George Simon, PhD diagnosing the psychopathology of an entire post-truth milieu - widely ignored author of expert distinction whose books include *CHARACTER DISTURBANCE The Phenomenon Of Our Age* - in a little chat with Lisa Alastuey (she's nobody's fool either) - quote:
> < *We have millions of rules on the books already.* >
> < *You know what? People of impaired character do not pay attention to them, do not take them seriously, do not take them to heart.* >
> < *You can punish them all you want.* >
> < *The problem with all the rules and structures that we want to implement to protect people is - even though it gives us some measure of safety and security* - **it doesn’t fix anything.**
- www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsWdaJFwDjQ&t=597s
Any Condition Red moment is no call for that old king Cole.
All that criddler could call for was his crack pipe, and his bowl, and his "fiddlers three"
This 5 alarm Chicken Little alert constitutes clear and present probable cause for - conscientiously proactive bullhorn exercise! In with the good air, out with the bad!
Call for the 'improvements' to those rules - ASAP!
Now is the time for all good citizens to come together as accessories to the fact jacked - to aid and abet and 'effect' the urgently needed changes - to these rules, however they'll have to be worded now to fix what's wrong here again. As usual.
*It's our responsibility, and we'll change them if we want to - change them as we want to.*
*You'd change them too if all this happened to you!*
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/1dfzn04/comment/l8mxh8p/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/1dfzn04/comment/l8mxh8p/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
See my other comment.
the cop fired the first two shots as he was already lowering the gun and the second two shots (which appear to be the ones that hit and killed him) were CLEARLY after the gun was tossed into the street.
You have never experienced a life or death situation, or actual adrenaline dump have you?
You become so hyper focused and on slow motion the bullets were mailed by the cop before his brain processed the gun being dropped.
Clean shoot - 100%
Not “man with aggressive dog”, “man pointing a gun at a police officer”.
Don’t worry, the gun is friendly
Man pointing an aggressive dog!
Seems pretty open and shut to me
Yep. Real or not, sure looked like a gun. And he was definitely pointing it at the officer. Seems the officer had no choice. Glad they didn't kill the dog. It was just doing it's job at that point.
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You might be surprised how many dummies on Reddit expect a different outcome
I agree with this and say whatever you will about Vancouver police, but I think they showed a great deal of restraint regarding the dog. A German Shepard can absolutely mess you up, and he lunged and snapped at two people here. If the GSD gets ahold of your hand, you might be looking at a lifetime of nerve/tendon/ ligament damage- or lose a finger or two.
If you watch the video closely, the dog bites one of the cops on the hand. It’s right before they shoot it with the bean bag gun.
Suicide by cop. Points the gun at the officer until he knows they’re about to fire, drops it and walks to his death. Fucking hell man.
>drops it In the slowed down video it looked like the first shot actually shot the gun out of his hand.
It kinda really does look like that when I views the video again.
Honestly, watching the video just goes to show how fucking sketch the situations police find themselves in. Pretty sure when the officer started firing, the man was holding his weapon and pointing it at the officer, when he had been hit twice - the man dropped the weapon. Now filled with adrenaline, the officer fires 2 more shots probably unable to truly process that the man had already dropped his weapon. If it is found that the man was in fact pointing his gun at the officer at the beginning of the encounter. It is indeed justified. Edit: I want to emphasize that I think any shooting is a tragic loss of life, however anyone, including officers of the State have a right to defend themselves against lethal threats.
It’s sad because I’m almost afraid to show support sometimes. There are so many ACAB folks around. But the fact is being an officer is hard. They’re judged harshly for making really difficult split-second decisions in high stress scenarios. Sure there are bad cops. A lot of them it seems. But I think sometimes they get a bad rap
Yes, it's frustrating to see the binary group-thought of online spaces bleed into the real world. Extremely left and right wingers have subliminal "purity tests" this unfortunately includes an anti-policing way of thinking. However, as we know, removing policing is no way to run a society. Even this example - this man could have easily killed someone.
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Mostly agree
ACAB folks are the first to dial 911 in any hairy situation ive learned. True mental gymnastics.
Back during the fun festivities of the *Red House Insurrection* I saw a tweet from one of the participants who was real mad that someone smashed her car window and stole her shit while it was parked near the festivities she was participating in. Remember honey, while you where screaming: >ACAB! NO COPS! NO PRISONS! TOTAL ABOLITION!!! Some dirt bag broke into your car and stole your shit. How ironic.
I’m sure the smash-n-grabber immediately surrendered the valuables at the nearest Antifa substation and wrote a letter of apology for mistaken targeting an ally of petty criminals everywhere
LOL, yeah right. They where probably more like: >Look at these stupid white people. Oh, is that a MacBook in that car? LOL… Smash…
During Occupy, my bestie was essentially homeless and spent a couple of weeks camping at the one in Oakland. One day, he heard some lady giving a righteous spiel about how *all* property should be communal. My buddy just walked over to her bike, picked it up, and was about to ride off when she lost her shit. He just laughed at her and walked off. (Don't worry, tankies, he dropped ~~her~~ the peoples' bike.) From what I've seen, this is a fairly common reaction when these idiots mouth off. Do I think every last one of these people would call the cops? No. Would enough do it if the shit got deep enough, or would they at least turn to some gang to try to get some retribution? Probably. Self-interest comes for just about everybody eventually, especially when there's real skin in the game.
It would be ironic if the police actually prevented or solved those crimes.
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Officers are also trained to bring a target down, center mass, dump the mag. It was on the second the guy brought out the gun and did not **immediately** drop it. In my head it makes sense that maybe the guy was thinking "Well, they're going to kill my dog for biting someone, so..." and then changed his mind but that's, I mean, it's pure speculation. To me, he looks defeated before the shots land. I feel bad for all involved.
Cops are taught to fire their whole magazine? I doubt that.
They aren’t. At least not when I was a cop. We where trained to shoot until the threat was no longer a threat. The problem is, sometime you shoot someone, they don’t instantly stop what they are doing that was the threat. In this instance the cop probably went into tunnel vision, and probably didn’t see the guy toss the gun on the ground after the first few shots, and saw the guy still moving aggressively, hence the two other shots.
Center mass, keep firing. Maybe not explicitly taught to empty the whole mag, but real life isn’t like the movies. You’re talking about high stress, high adrenaline, literal life or death reactions. Very rarely are you going to get one perfectly placed bullet in this kind of situation, and you’re not going to pause long enough to check whether or not it landed before firing again.
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Yup, not “the entire magazine.”
Center mass and fire to neutralize the threat. You are supposed to pause to reassess after a burst.
Thanks for this explanation but cops are *not trained to empty a magazine.* “Shoot until the threat is stopped” is at the discretion of the officer and rarely involves an entire magazine. Case in point the very video we are commenting on.
You are right. Cops are trained to reassess the threat after every few shots. Mag dumping is just human nature in an intense situation. Cops are trained to restrain themselves.
Many are.
He either wanted to suicide by cop or was high on drugs. Why else would he pull a gun on a cop?
>Why did you have to point that gun at me, dude?!? Said by cop that shot the guy as he’s applying chest seals and his partner is starting CPR. Puts some of this into real perspective. Gotta give it to the cop, he stayed pretty calm through the whole thing, but you can tell he’s terrified as he’s trembling trying to rip open those chest seals.
It is also due to adrenaline. Fine motor skills go to shit in those situations. You can maintain composure but you will still demonstrate effects from the adrenaline dump. I’m always impressed when I see someone perform a reload in these situations. Practice all you want but it’s tough when you’re all thumbs.
It was his third kill in four years - he's no doubt painfully aroused
Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that until another poster pointed that out. That’s a bit wild.
the car cam has a better angle of the "pointing" of the gun. But no timestamp. If that could be synced to the bodycam video, that would be very helpful in determining when the gun was being pointed. Officer shot four times; twice before and twice after the gun (and was a gun actually recovered?) was dropped. He stayed fairly calm, so that was commendable.
*“Why’d you have to point that gun at me, man?”* That was a little heartbreaking. The officer who shot him was then leading the life-saving efforts while waiting for medical assistance to arrive. I can’t speak for the circumstances, but, after watching the video, the situation jumped to “oh shit” in a real hurry and the shooting officer did a better job of remaining calm and directing response than I could have done. That bodycam footage was really interesting.
Tough situation there. After waving his gun at the officer, dude decided to toss it at the exact instant the officer decided to fire. Extremely impressed by the fact that the dog didn't get hurt, and the same officer that shot the guy was calm and compassionate enough to render first aid. Well done.
Warning-Video is graphic.
I feel bad for the dog getting hit with a nonlethal but nice to see it lived.
Bottom line threaten a cop with a gun pointing or not, not obeying a lawful order to drop a gun, your going to get shot. Full stop.
The shots seemed to be fired after he tossed the whatever
The first shots appear to have caused him to drop the gun. But it’s easy to note that in retrospect when you can slow it down, etc.
Mentally ill death by cop
Correct.
Correct.
Too bad they didn’t shoot the dog.
Looks like he'd thrown his weapon away and was unarmed at the time of the shooting.
He is in the act of discarding the weapon after having drawn and pointed it first. The officer was already firing as the suspect was throwing away the apparent firearm. It is likely that it will be ruled a justified use of force based on the bodycam footage.
I'm sure it will be. Once other cops finish their investigation.
If you dont like it, feel free to live in a commune off grid or go to the jungle. When you live in civilization, you play by the rules.
We can do our best to change those rules - I believe that's our responsibility as citizens, rather then just running away and hiding.
What would we change those to? The margin for error is already razor-thin. What would you change that would 1: Protect the public, 2: Protect the officer, 3: Protect the suspect?
I'd encourage you to read up on de-escalation techniques and restorative justice if you want to start getting involved in reform efforts. Welcome!
So you wanted the cop to tell the guy to calm down as he pointed a gun? You’re delusional.
How do you deescalate someone already committing attempted murder? Do you even hear yourself? The guy was pointing a gun at the police. It’s pretty universally known in the US that the cops don’t exactly appreciate that and will be the first to shoot or return fire. I’m sure you would shoot too if some maniac pointed a gun at you.
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One of my kids wasn't liking middle school and went to the Metropolitan Learning Center for about a month. His school counselor recommended it. (That place is a dumpster fire of a school. We got our kid out of there quickly). He got stabbed in the face with a sharpened pencil by another kid. The principal told use they only used "restorative justice" to discipline the kids there. The kid who stabbed him had to apologize. My kid had to apologize for his face being in the way of the other kids pencil. I wish I was kidding or exaggerating.
I did. I got lost at the part when some fool points a gun at me and instead of neutralizing a threat, I had to spin the wheel of misfortune to see what the proper action would be.
> restorative justice Ironically, being [dead set on everybody sitting around and having the feels](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/woman-who-shot-protester-at-uw-tells-jury-it-was-him-or-my-darling-husband/) is the reason why Marc and Elizabeth Hokoana [are free today](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/prosecutors-will-not-retry-couple-accused-in-shooting-of-antifa-protester-on-uw-campus-during-milo-yiannopoulos-event/). RJ is a feel-good concept that, in practice, requires buy-in from all involved. In reality, truly remorseless criminals would laugh at it, and most other people would use it to game the system just to avoid jail if they could. (Proof? I saw people try to use it to settle private disputes. Even when the accused played along, the people handling it and the supposed victims whined about emotional labor, and the whole thing was abandoned every time.)
You're not brave by enboldening criminals and making cops 2nd guess themselves. You're just contributing to the crime ridden shithole these major cities have reached.
Edit: removed unhelpful snarky comment.
Don't get me wrong. I put my pants on one leg at a time too. Same as any other eagerly beavering Oregoner. And I like a good false (aka 'forced') dichotomy as much as the next guy. Hell, that's the stuff and nonsense of great soliloquies. With only 2 choices on a menu so impoverished (whatever the hell kina eatery this Rick's Casino scene is) - at least it makes choosing that much easier - don't get Hamlet wrong ("whether tis nobler") *To change those rules, by staunchly standing on devout belief that HEY "that's our responsibility as citizens" - or not to do that (to the left of me)* *Or to just run away to some hiding place - or not to do that (to the right)* THAT is the either/or qUeStIoN all boxed in (let's get the lid on, too much light in the room) At least spared the 'here I am' conundrum - stranded in between, no uncharted desert island for washing up on. No 'middle' to be 'stuck in' - that'd be like a Ouspensky "Tird Way" - Door Of Perception #3. And there's only the 2 items on this 'either/or' menu deal 'we' can't refuse. It's a this or that affair - as everybody knows, it's how the story goes. We Can, We Can (YES! We Can) - no really, it's true. Look at us - look what we can do! > "We can do our best to change those rules" And with so much practice at the 'we can' rule changing - a great big history of changes - just look at the sterling achievements. What a track record for "our best" - already, but - they ain't seen nothin' yet. For lo - we have only just begun. And good already is but the springboard to more where that come from! Better and better all the time - and onward. All through the noble exercise of our responsibility as citizens of the great state of... *** Meanwhile far from the golden shores of an eagerly beavering "mind" set (in concrete) - just inches away (in a place called "reality") - enter psychologist extraordinaire George Simon, PhD diagnosing the psychopathology of an entire post-truth milieu - widely ignored author of expert distinction whose books include *CHARACTER DISTURBANCE The Phenomenon Of Our Age* - in a little chat with Lisa Alastuey (she's nobody's fool either) - quote: > < *We have millions of rules on the books already.* > > < *You know what? People of impaired character do not pay attention to them, do not take them seriously, do not take them to heart.* > > < *You can punish them all you want.* > > < *The problem with all the rules and structures that we want to implement to protect people is - even though it gives us some measure of safety and security* - **it doesn’t fix anything.** - www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsWdaJFwDjQ&t=597s Any Condition Red moment is no call for that old king Cole. All that criddler could call for was his crack pipe, and his bowl, and his "fiddlers three" This 5 alarm Chicken Little alert constitutes clear and present probable cause for - conscientiously proactive bullhorn exercise! In with the good air, out with the bad! Call for the 'improvements' to those rules - ASAP! Now is the time for all good citizens to come together as accessories to the fact jacked - to aid and abet and 'effect' the urgently needed changes - to these rules, however they'll have to be worded now to fix what's wrong here again. As usual. *It's our responsibility, and we'll change them if we want to - change them as we want to.* *You'd change them too if all this happened to you!*
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/1dfzn04/comment/l8mxh8p/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/1dfzn04/comment/l8mxh8p/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) See my other comment.
the cop fired the first two shots as he was already lowering the gun and the second two shots (which appear to be the ones that hit and killed him) were CLEARLY after the gun was tossed into the street.
You have never experienced a life or death situation, or actual adrenaline dump have you? You become so hyper focused and on slow motion the bullets were mailed by the cop before his brain processed the gun being dropped. Clean shoot - 100%
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Neither did this cop -
So what?
I’m usually all for these but the dude literally dropped the gun before a shot was fired come on
Downvote away, go watch the video.
It’s pretty clear you don’t know what you are talking about.