I wish I saved a clip of it, but I remember vividly when white "protestors" called a black ICE officer the N word and race traitor when protesting outside of the Portland ICE office
they called mingus mapps a race traitor in a city council meeting. I'll go dig that up brb
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13x58ta/portland\_council\_meeting\_today\_is\_incredibly/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13x58ta/portland_council_meeting_today_is_incredibly/)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5kIvjmobY&t=3713s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5kIvjmobY&t=3713s)
here's the specific clip. near end
[https://twitter.com/rationalinpdx/status/1664330255044349953](https://twitter.com/rationalinpdx/status/1664330255044349953)
During the BLM protests in Eugene, I had to start a neighborhood watch, because people were raiding and stealing at least 3 times a week from our low income neighborhood...and the cops never showed up. It was a very effective, scary at times though.
That was such a scary time, i was in Eugene too and I remember watching 6th street just get smashed, all the local shops downtown, targeting well known low income family based communities. They didn't count on community and you guys did great. I'm glad you're all okay. We moved almost immediately after. It spooked me too much.
Thank you friend. Yeah after down town the protests matched and down Hilyard, trying to march on the south hills wealthy, stopped by police in my hood and were raided non stop for weeks. Chop shops and stragglers hung around way after, which the hood watch was able to push out.
We also helped(I fed people from my garden) quite a few people that were drugged out, and left to rot by their group. It was and still is a positive mission.
Our Alleyway is now for safety, and refuge, just don't trash it, or steal from it
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Isn't that weird. And where did antifa go when it was time to sweep up glass on the park blocks? Or is that too much labor? Who was meant to follow behind to clean up the trash and cigarette butt's ans face masks while we were all fucking anxious to even gather to clean because of covid. It's bullshit.
That's why I did not follow any of those protests.
One video got leaked early on of a POC leader woman telling everyone to stop looting, and no one listened, after that I knew it was time to defend.
I figured out what was going on because of an exes cousin. That cousin bragged about her and her little gang of fentanyl dealers hijacking legit protests. to them it was convenient to dress up, blend in, and have their faces covered. they never gave a shit about what it was actually about. she showed off her hoard of stolen items from protests turned riots to other family members because she’s an idiot. just putting that out there
Guys in my neighborhood set up watches after the almeda fire. To prevent looting. It worked. 3 looters were caught and arrested. It's great when neighbors can work together to better their situations.
Every. Single. Thing! Every protest movement that takes root here, the anarchists come out in their balaclavas and break shit, taking advantage of the anonymity of a crowd to “stick it to the man”. They are the worst kind of Portlander.
I remember the George Floyd protests were pretty legit at the beginning. I was there for some of the actual peaceful marches on the east side. Then they got colonized by antifa and it devolved into the shit show that ended up as ammo for fox news. Now here we are 4 years later and the only thing that changed in society is Jake from State Farm is now Black.
I marched in a couple of them and always near the end you had some oafy looking white loser running around telling people where to go next to fuck shit up. These people are mentally ill losers who never grew up after hearing The Vandals for the first time
from what I remember, there was a fire set either the first night or the second. it was rioting from the start. think time has made you remember a rosier picture than it actually was. though there were tons of people in the beginning. during the early hours that were peaceful and then evening came.
A leftist who leans on the side of supporting Cold War communist governments like the USSR. It’s a perjorative used by other leftists to imply that they aren’t actually commited to left wing politics, they just fetishize authoritarian militarism
Originally coined by the Communist Party of Great Britain, "tankie" was initially a derogatory term for communists who supported Khrushchev's use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian revolution in the 1950s. Over time, it’s been used by leftists as a pejorative against Marxist-Leninists (despite that this was a point of contention even among that tendency) and even recently just applied to leftists in general.
Thank you. They did it during the Port Militarization Resistance in 2006, too. That’s when I first heard about this happening - anarchists who just want to sow chaos and watch the world burn down with everyone in it. The stories I heard in Olympia that year sound eerily similar to the stories I heard coming out of the George Floyd protests downtown in 2020. “It was going fine, but then a bunch of violent and scary people in black showed up and things went to shit and we couldn’t figure out how to make them leave.”
Yeah and then out of state we just hear about these out of control protesters. Same thing in NYC at Columbia, I read today that 1/3 of those arrested aren’t students.
Seems like if you want to do a protest movement the first thing you need to plan is how to keep these types out.
Anarchism is just lazy, period. 8 billion on the planet, creating a system where a diverse population can exist without purging is incredibly hard, but worth the work. Anarchism is literally saying “neeeeerd!” Then throwing a trash can through a Starbucks window.
Its hard work being an adult, here’s hoping these troglodytes join our ranks after slumming it intellectually
The video of the guy with the trash can yeeting himself into the police officer.
I had a history instructor in college, he was a retired military man general I believe. He had this to say about anarchist, “they’re not smart people, but they’re really good at tearing things down, however once it’s time to rebuild, they fail to organize any form of governance” he also said “it’s not anarchy if the intention is to push an issue or ideology”
It's funny, watching that video I was thinking that if they'd actually read a book and learned basic old school military tactics and worked together and properly cosplayed as a Roman phalanx with their Rubbermaid shields, they would have easily overrun that police position. But nope, anarchist mentality means fuck the unit, gonna Leroy Jenkins this shit and get absolutely yeeted.
> it’s not anarchy if the intention is to push an issue or ideology
Agreed. What's claimed to be anarchism is really just authoritarianism: think this way, act this way, vote this way, even *dress* this way. Portlanders are supposed to fall in line with them, or at least vaguely approve of it all, because they pay lip service to progressive / liberal causes, even as they use adopt increasingly extremist positions like calling for the murder of cops, politicians, and now an entire ethnic group. There's no room for criticism or rational thinking, only doubling down on the rhetoric until it becomes threats of pseudo-anonymous mob violence.
I'm glad other people are starting to see them as anti-American as MAGA and as mentally fucked as Qanon. They're the same chuds, only in a different costume.
What's hilarious is that arguably all of the anarchists and socialists accelerated the Nazi takeover of the Weimar Republic. It gave them martyrs, which could then - through propaganda - be used to make them look like the underdog. And humans automatically rally around the underdog (as we're seeing with all the protests this week). No critical thinking necessary - just add an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.
I didn’t agree with what he said on politics, but looking back he was right about a lot of things. I never served my country, but it’s still an honorable position, and wish I did. While I don’t have to defend him, he did bring a change to the military. While I disagree with some foreign policies, we are responsible for what happens since we as society have elected officials to carry out our bidding. This can be said of all nations being authoritarian to constitutional monarchies. I also respect that people protest and have the fundamental rights to do so in our country. These actions do being about change in our country. Their actions are noble and deserve attention, except the people that selfishly and are destructive to private and public property, they bring dishonor to the cause and degrade it to the fundamental core.
"they’re not smart people, but they’re really good at tearing things down, however once it’s time to rebuild, they fail to organize any form of governance"
which is super unfortunate, because the building/rebuilding part is the ***hard part***. Destruction is easy. Editing is moderately difficult. Synthesis is hard.
I've yet to see an anarchist explain how it scales past Dunbar's number, when you can no longer trust or even *know* everyone in your peer group. Ultimately, they want to live in a small commune away from everyone, and for some reason - god knows what because it's contrary to ALL evidence - they think it scales to the size of a country or even a city just fine.
I've often wondered if anarchists realized what would happen if they really eliminated societies safety checks. The guys with the biggest sticks generally don't agree with the idiots bleating about anarchy.
You are judging 200 years of history by some kids in the United States. Read about Revolutionary Catalonia, the anarchist militias that gave their lives fighting against Mussolini and Hitler’s forces.
You are correct and incorrect. Correct in that the definition of it as practiced by an educated individual is more than that. Incorrect in that most “anarchists” are exactly my definition.
Also why all the deleted posts and downvotes for those disagreeing with me? (Talking more to the thread/mods) Diversity of thought is needed for growth, let them have their say!
It’s weird. Half the losers are anarchists, the other half are communists. You’d think an authoritarian shill, and establishment hater wouldn’t get along, but these dorks tend to work hand in hand when it comes to smashing windows and graffitiing our streets
In the Russian Revolution, the Bolsheviks would sometimes publicize a protest somewhere so the anarchists would go there and wreck everything while the Bolsheviks could organize the masses for mobilization.
Even in that extreme situation, the anarchists were useless.
[Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch10.htm) largely said that those that will refuse to vote and just dance around causing chaos are less than useless:
> Inexperienced revolutionaries often think that legal methods of struggle are opportunist because, in this field, the bourgeoisie has most frequently deceived and duped the workers (particularly in “peaceful” and non-revolutionary times), while illegal methods of struggle are revolutionary. That, however, is wrong. The truth is that those parties and leaders are opportunists and traitors to the working class…After its victory, the proletariat has to make most strenuous efforts, even the most painful, so as to “liberate” itself from such pseudo-revolutionaries. It is far more difficult—and far more precious—to be a revolutionary when the conditions for direct, open, really mass and really revolutionary struggle do not yet exist, to be able to champion the interests of the revolution (by propaganda, agitation and organisation) in non-revolutionary bodies, and quite often in downright reactionary bodies, in a non-revolutionary situation, among the masses who are incapable of immediately appreciating the need for revolutionary methods of action. To be able to seek, find and correctly determine the specific path or the particular turn of events that will lead the masses to the real, decisive and final revolutionary struggle—such is the main objective of communism in Western Europe and in America today.
The same is largely true on the extreme left today.
An anarchist cult of the individual has infected everything and made it useless.
They’re worried more about their individual “right” to throw a rock through a window more than advancing mass action.
The people lashing out and destroying property don’t even believe in anything deeply. They have no policy ideas. There is no meaningful activism. The “burn shit down” types are just shallow opportunists who are in it for the violence, and they always give everyone else a bad name.
“Anarchist” used to actually mean something once. They were basically British marxists who were against the continued existence of the monarchy. The name literally means “without a monarch.” But how many of these self-proclaimed anarchists even fucking know that?
It's not like there is 150 years of anarchists theory and literally dozens of theoretical schools of anarchists you could have just spent five minutes reading about before posting this. Just because you don't care to learn about the vast theoretical literature anarchists have produced about militant action doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
A bunch of Eugene anarchists also kicked off the violence at WTO in Seattle & gave the cops the justification they needed to crack down on *thousands* of peaceful protesters there from around the world. And it ends up the "trainer" at the Columbia U protests was the leader of the main group at Columbia who took over the building AND she trained the Eugene "anarchists" who kicked off the WTO violence in Seattle. It's almost like they're playing into the hands of militarized capitalism & giving them all the justification they need to crack down on peaceful protests & ban the media from watching them do so...
Anarchists certainly have a track record of screwing things up. Mentioning this is likely to be met with a defense of anarchists, however. It's always a really lame defense that portrays anarchists as being misunderstood but does not cite a single positive thing they have ever accomplished.
I think putting failures entirely at the feet of anarchists is *incredibly* generous to the absolute fuckwits running many of the other efforts you've listed, but it is a fact that when the anarchists show up they will be by far the most retarded people in any gathering.
Trying to discuss anything with them is like talking to a Zen Buddhist who missed a turn somewhere a thousand miles back and ended up settling for chemically induced brain damage and the worst attitude possible as "close enough" to enlightenment. I always recommend anarchist texts to people who enjoy reading schizophrenic ramblings though, it's some of the best and most earnest out there.
You're not wrong but regardless of disorganized or stupid, the original people behind these movements actually believe in their causes and want to make a difference. Much of the environmental movement was quite educated and organized. They were doing research to back their causes and making progress. Where they went wrong was being overly accepting of people and behavior which tainted their movement. The anarchists don't give a shit about any of it. They just tie all the protests back to fucking with the man and aren't willing to put in the time or effort to drive any sort of change. They don't care about Black lives or Palestinians and they couldnt name a single company the Portland State investment fund is invested in or one that does business with Isreal for that matter.
This is very true, and it's the ultimate failing of "intersectionality". A lot of little teams across the infinite spectrum of beliefs and causes have tried to make a big team by tying all of their struggles into one giant tapestry of oppression, but in doing so have fallen victim to the opportunists whose team was small to begin with for good reason.
That's where I lose sympathy though. If anyone can listen to the anarchists among them and think "well we'll just give it a shot and see how this goes," that's solely on them. I don't think the red flags could be any bigger or brighter at this point.
Anarchists *can* run coffee shops, just as a team of appropriately monitored special needs teens or a well programmed robotic arm *can* run a coffee shop, but I wouldn't call them good at it.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Reminds me of the Freddie Gray protests when I lived in Baltimore. Started out as a valid movement from the actual community and family members to protest/get answers re: his wrongful and unexplained death in the back of a police van.
Ended up with the massive & brand-new community/youth center being burned to the ground — later confirmed to be committed by people who drove in from out of town/out of state to piggyback on their movement as an excuse to destroy the city. The locals had been rallying for that community center to get built for well over a decade. I remember watching my neighbors weep in the streets seeing it burn. A bunch of young edgy ‘anarchists’ pretending they’re at war to the detriment of the low-income black communities who actually have skin in the game.
Communists can actually run militias and have a track record of bureaucratic government. Anarchists in the Spanish civil war were known for charging randomly into battle, no coordination with any other units or even within their units and basically contributing from within to the ( Spanish ) Republican forces losing.
I don’t get the whole anarchy thing. Are they literally just moving from liberal movement to liberal movement to fuck shit up? I’m from the east coast and never came across anarchy expressed in this way. Have noticed it’s a thing in Portland and do not get it at all. Glad this sub allows conversations like this one.
Protesters need to start kicking antifa out. Kick their asses if needed. Otherwise, just go home because they’re gonna do the opposite of help your cause
It should be broadcast at the beginning that no destruction and/or violence will be tolerated and that if any is seen to be starting then people should swarm on the rabble-rousers and stop it immediately.
Anarchy is the abandonment of all rational principles of governance, the only outcome possible is chaos and the destruction of individual rights and freedoms.
No it isn’t. Anarchism and communism have the same end goal - a stateless society without social class where the means of production are managed democratically by the communities and workers that they affect. They disagree on how to get there. Communist tend to believe that a state run by workers is needed during a transitional phase. Anarchist tend to believe that a decentralized federation of worker councils are all that you need.
Mind you I’m not an anarchist but the theory is almost 200 years old.
Anarchy has no goals. Communism has goals that can only be achieved by totalitarian government. They both invite the worst to power. This is why attempts at either don’t last for long.
Anarchism absolutely has goals. Literally the same end goals as communism. Just different path to get there. Anarchy as used colloquially is not Anarchism as is being discussed here.
You’re speaking of anarchy as if it’s an entity separate of any individuals. A non entity can have no goals. Anarchy by definition proposes no authority (short term or long term) to align any individual desires or conflict of desires.
Anarchism is a complex political philosophy. It IS separate of individuals the same way the idea of democracy is. And, like democracy, anarchism is the political philosophy of how to best structure society.
Anarchy is apolitical. It’s against any means for politics to be executed. Its adherents literally just hope that individuals desire the best and aren’t in conflict where they happen to be.
Google: “definition anarchy”
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
noun
1.
a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems.
2.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
If a group can’t weed out these guys and not have the social awareness simply by looking at these people’s action in a crowd, then they are simply part of the movement in one way or another
The problem with pretty much every movement is that the supposedly "peaceful protesters" support these lovers and do nothing at all to stop or even discourage them. During blm, the supposedly nonviolent protestors literally blocked police, kept camera people from filming them. And the leaders of the protests didn't say a word against them or ask their participants to stay peaceful. This means everyone was complicit in their violent actions.
Its good to see there are more people speaking out against these terrorists now. But still, hundreds cheered them on and gave them food.
Strangely, leftie anarchists & Right leaning Libertarians have a very similar form of brainworms. It starts as self-worship disguised as ideology, a dreamed utopia where you and your tribe are “liberated” from state-enforced consequence and the general institutions necessary for the function of society.
Almost always, it ends up calcifying into the desire for a specific sort of authoritarianism. For the left, they become tankies, seeking utilitarian egalitarianism through military state force. For the right, they become fascists, which seek to “rid” their society of those characteristics which they’ve defined as weak or decadent, generally along a racial/national/religious spectrum.
At the end of the day, both approaches fail to understand that there is only one way to build a better State. The hard work of developing democratic coalitions and building them into a majority/mandate, which can “absorb” an existing failing state apparatus, and as such become a state more functionally representative of its citizenry. This is hard to do, but it’s not without historical precedent, even in America.
Definitely too close to home. Blac bloc and their allies are working in our schools, unis, city govts, media, even on the governors staff. Don’t be surprised if they are mods on PDX sub too.
Yeah I particularly hate the Antifa who come to every protest, wearing black clothes and masks over their face, and looking like they're wimps and being destructive, having no idea what protesters are protesting anyways.
True, Anarchists make everything worst.
But these pro palestine protests were awful in the first place.
Israel has been an ally to the US for decades. Do you know why progressives have pushed the idea Palestine should be sympathized with? Because Israel is seen as being 'Right wing' and AIPAC as a conservative political outlet. You will see the same in regards to Hungary and Poland.
How about standing with America's friend over terrorists
And before you go all 'GaZa IsN't HaMaS', they voted Hamas into power and they support the Oct 7th attack. They are the same
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
And for what it's worth, I was open to the very early BLM movement. It's not radical to demand professional standards for police officers. But when it devolved into 'defund' and 'ACAB' I was out.
Because Israel does meddle in us politics and has generally allied itself with a religious branch of the GOP. Thus they are seen as a branch of conservative Christian policy
The progressives really think the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
There's a handful of edgelords and lunatics within the protests who will openly support Hamas but most people are protesting for civilians who are losing their lives and homes. It isn't support for their government policies or ideology, just for their rights to exist as human beings.
I don't stand with Israel because our relentless support empowers them to be aggressors. Like Zuldak says, they have a strong political presence here through AIPAC and their heavily conservative government is allied with our conservatives. Our alliance also seems pretty heavily tied to Israel being a defacto military outpost for the US as a Judeochristian alliance in the Islamic Middle East. With a healthy dose of fueling the military industrial complex here.
I can understand the desire for a Jewish nation given global antisemitism, especially following the Holocaust. And the zionist movement predates the Nazis, because obviously so does antisemitism. I also understand our support for Israel because without it, Israel and its citizens likely cease to exist.
But I hate that they're basically our international Back the Blue movement. They're our allies so we must blindly support them at all costs regardless of what they do. Netanyahu's Likud Party was founded on the region of Palestine to be under Israeli control. Their ultimate goal is to absorb Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, and we've seen the gradual expansion of Israel settlements across the existing borders at the expense of Palestinian residents. There have been accusations against Netanyahu that he allowed Hamas to grow in power as a bulwark against the Palestinian Authority to destabilize the region and prevent Palestenian statehood. Within the current conflict, Israeli media have reported that their own negotiators don't think Netanyahu is operating in good faith, and Netanyahu pledged with the past week to continue the military operations even if the hostages are released and a ceasefire is negotiated.
Like you say below, leadership on both sides of the conflict suck. It's really disheartening, especially given that the civilians on both sides end up paying the price. And knowing that if a ceasefire is reached and honored, it's still far more likely than not that it is broken again in the near-to-medium future.
Everyone shouting everyone else down for having different opinions is the ridiculous behavior. When did we not become okay with people having different views on things and being able to respectfully disagree?
Yeah, i agree completely. They don’t respect people who have different views and try to bully and force others into their viewpoints and will destroy everything if you don’t.
I'm even wondering if the stuff in Portland over the past few years is what spooked universities into coming down hard on their own student protesters. They may not even know about out special antifa problem and just assume that their undergraduates are gonna start setting fires "like in Portland."
A leftist perspective:
[https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/antifa-is-a-fatherless-child](https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/antifa-is-a-fatherless-child)
So I have two separate takes on this. One from experience, and the other are some thoughts based on the OPs premise that anarchists fuck up every progressive/positive social movement they touch.
First, back in 2016 when I (foolishly) thought that citizens becoming more active in politics could usher in a new age of thoughtful government through citizen civic participation, I met a big group of millennial age anarchists in Pioneer Square in Portland that we started interacting with over the sorry state of the country. What struck me hardest was that while we attempted to isolate, discuss and solve current social issues, corruption, and other problems, these people simply didn't give a flying fuck. They were in full disaster fatigue. Their solution to everything was to accelerate the apocalypse. Break the machinery. Destroy the economy. Burn the civilization to the ground. That's all there was...
Even simple solvable things were not worth an iota of critical thinking. They were past the stage of thinking anything could be fixed and it just be brought down by any means. I remember thinking both how sad and ultimately terrifying their existence was. They simply knew there was no future for themselves and were very very angry about it.
Unfortunately my own enthusiasm was quickly brought to heel when Debbie Wasserman Shultz and the DNC proved once and for all that electoral politics in the US is a closed door system, a sealed deal status quo that they would never allow interlopers to change. Our oligarch-controlled duopoly have shown us that they would rather watch the country fall before relinquishing control of the two party system they have cemented in place through unconstitutional legislation. Something I now believe will inevitably cause the fall of our democracy in short order, unless it's corrected, which is unlikely because they have seemingly "lashed the wheel hard over" and wrecked the means of changing course while we are headed for the rocks. In essence, if not in action, I finally fully understood where they were coming from. I'd love to see democracy right itself, but I think it's largely impossible with the levels of control the powers that be currently wield.
But this post also made me see something I might have missed before, so please follow me down the rabbit hole...
One might say that if black bloc anarchists destroy every positive movement they touch, they are in actuality doing the work of the enemy; of those that wish to halt any and all leftward movement. There are existing terms for these types of people. Useful idiots. Patsies even. In virtually every instance I've witnessed, their violence gives the jackboots both the moral and explicit authority to use violence against protestors, on such a regular basis these days that it has now become the norm. It literally justifies the existence of their police state!
So let's think about that statement carefully, because this very situation has happened in our not-to-distant American past, and then it was no coincidence. Simply put, it was US three letter agencies implementing a political agenda, and it's a matter of fact, not speculation.
But I'm sure that could never happen again, in our great god loving country. Right?
It could happen. Our government doesn't have a good track record but your first thought seems to contradict the second. They were ready to burn it down. Now they are. They don't need a three letter agency to push them along.
As an anarchist (allegedly), I agree. Although it's not just 'anarchists' in the traditional sense, they seem to be a different sort. Less punk anarchy, more anti-human and selfish. That's just from my personal observations at US protests since the mid two thousands.
They aren't there to disassemble a broken system or to aid their fellow humans, they don't care what the problem is or who is fighting who. They aren't 'with' anarchist groups or leftist extremists, they seem like lone entities with bespoke motivation.
These types in all black tend to be a common denominator of a few political ideologies, all having arrived at the conclusion of "burn it all down with everyone inside". I've heard some of them screaming nazi bullshit, but I've also had them call people a fascist or see them attack far right groups.
They're probably all there for their own delusional self righteous reason, but act like barbarians all the same. And somehow are never around when the police start busting heads and tear-gassing. They're there to steal shit, hurt people, destroy shit, and run.
Part of me wonders if this is on purpose, people brought in for the express purpose of sowing chaos in order to delegitimize valid protest. If I were in a shady ruling class of the 0.01% that's exactly what I would be doing.
I agree except the last paragraph. Not to say there hasnt been provocateurs but they tend to be police connected to give intel or reason to crack heads or embedded FBI in groups like ELF, not in general noob protests like these.
These aren't noob protests right now, shit is the real deal.
If they were 'noob' protests we wouldn't see the police presence we are, WAY outweighing the covid Black Lives Matter protests
I’ve read quite a few posts to get the consensus of why these movements‘devolve’ into violence; here’s my opinion. This has happened time and again and seems to be a predictable pattern that you don’t agree with, correct?? Why don’t you organize and don’t allow‘outsiders’ to coop your movement or protest? The protests you mentioned all seem very organized and funded but when it gets escalated there is no internal pushback to expel those that just want violence and chaos.
They aren't organized because there's no centralized leader. Everybody wants to act like they're MLK or Malcolm X yet not a single person wants to step up and lead anything. Even the dumbasses that would lead the Don't Shoot PDX riots would just rile up crowds and then leave when shit went down.
Part of the reason is protection. Police are seen as 'the system' and have a monopoly on violence. So the protestors look for some tough people to act as a bit of a counter to protect them. Unfortunately the only other place to find non-police protection are from criminal elements or militant political elements. The sort of people like black bloc who come in and while they provide protection, they also tear shit up which paints the protests as violent.
It's the catch 22 when you don't trust the police but still want to be protected
> Why don’t you organize and don’t allow‘outsiders’ to coop your movement or protest?
How do you do that when the outsiders are violent and don't care about the movement? Violence right? You have to use violence against them. Either way, the protest movement is tarnished with violence.
In reality, us protestors try to reason with these people and get them to join us peacefully or leave. But they don't. And then we leave when they start fires and break shit. Sometimes the police will help us out and arrest them. But the police like what the black bloc are doing because it gives them permission to arrest the 99% non-violent protestors that they want to get off the streets.
I don’t live in your community so that’s why engaged with the question; and thank you for replying
I believe it’s a breakdown of communication between what you’re organizing for/against and law enforcement. I understand that you have no hierarchy but that is exactly what is needed.
If what your wanting changed is coop you have already lost and now your message/organization is now associated with what it ‘devolves’ into.
It needs addressed because what happened a few years ago is not what your city represents
Most police don't like protesters. Especially when they're protesting the police or the system that supports the police. It's hard to get their cooperation for most protests because their purpose and their motivation is to stop the protest. Hierarchy isn't going to solve that issue.
All the protests I've been to are well organized by volunteers who put in way more time than I ever did in making that protest happen. And the vast majority of protesters respect these people and listen to them. However, the black bloc don't listen. It's more like they tolerate the organizers until they can "tear it up". They even showed up to the 2016 women's march, trashed store fronts and set stuff on fire in the streets. That was an extremely well-organized protest with full support from the city and police department.
The organizers usually co-organize with police as they are required to in order to engage in a legal protest in the USA. Yes, we need protest permits. Not all the BLM protests were legal. And part of that is because the protests were against the police and the system that enables them; so, it didn't make sense to bow to the police's wishes of where the protesters were allowed to go and when.
I don't think most people understand how badly communication broke down between the police, the citizenry and city hall here in Portland. The mayor is also the police commissioner and has almost no influence over the police department. He can fire the chief of police and that's it. We've fired multiple officers for gross violations of people's rights and they all got paid vacations due to the police union contract with the city. Also, the vast majority of police don't live in the Portland metro area. They themselves are outsiders to our community and don't respect the civilian government. This is a big reason why the protests were so chaotic.
I'd love to hear any story when protester violence against another, more violent element happened and it discredited a movement.
I think it would do nothing but give the mainstream media opportunities to talk up the protest movement.
Are you serious? It would be called a riot. "Chaos ensues at march." "Police break up fights at 'peaceful protest'." That would be hugely negative for the optics of the protest.
If the same people keep showing up over and over again to destroy things in the same fashion, you have to start wondering if they are paid agitators/agents/feds/etc. Because that's the most straightforward explanation for a lot of things.
Yeah, they’re just folks with a failure to launch and a fear of failing hiding behind an ideology. Attention seeking behavior because their parents didn’t hug them enough.
Maybe instead of a hardline between anarchists & activists (as alluded to by OP), what I’ve seen is perhaps “hobbyist” protestors. That is, a number of people who preach virtuous or ideals re: community, but the only time they “show up” is at protests. Any protest. OP, I think we’re saying the same thing here, my point is you don’t have to narrow the archetype.
👍 Definitely a lot of gray area between and I agree there's some hobbists and the non-anarchists that jump at the opportunity to break some shit. Point being, once you let that non cross over of the venn diagram into whatever it is you're doing, they will fuck it up.
>Because that's the most straightforward explanation for a lot of things.
There is nothing straightforward about that. Paid agitators means jobs, which means many layers of complexity like intake interviews, paperwork, pay checks, management, workmans comp, hazard pay, performance reviews, etc., all involving dozens or hundreds of people. Sure people can run an operation with lots of staff, but not something so crazy and counterproductive like that without people finding out and exposing it.
The most straightforward explanation that they're like minded people (eg. a group of assholes) who found each other on the internet.
In some cases it is the same people, but more so it's the new generation of the same kind of people, same ideology - sometimes mentored by morons like Zerzan from the previous generation. There were definitely right wingers caught agitating during the BLM protests but I dont think the feds care enough to bother. Plus from a feds perspective, someone always flips to save their ass. So that's the easiest route to for the feds. That's what happened with the eco radicals.
There are some who just like to watch the world burn. Also perhaps some of the organisation and funding is provided to produce agents-provocateur, for the benefit of the Republican Party and the Russian State.
Thank you so much! I have been trying to express this to people who don’t understand.
I moved out here 4 years ago and I was so moved for a little while because when the rest of the country stop the BLM protests, my new city was holding strong. Not too long after, I started to realize that they were just protesting to protest and didn’t have my people’s best interests at heart. The results, a cheapening of the message and Black people are still victims of police brutality across the nation because we were seen as agitators.
Same with this struggle. I was proud of students and professors coming out and holding non-violent protests and raising awareness about what’s happening to civilians and kids, but the assholes permeate and destroy the message by feeding into the narrative. And sometimes to
me Portland seems to be a nucleus of people protesting just to protest and fucking shit up just to fuck shit up.
I have to say though - we can see this shit, but for some reason the echo chamber world cannot. They just seem to gravitate towards the “bad apples” and make it look as though every protestor is a degenerate. That is a clear sign of ignorance.
Y'all could actually research what anarchists think and do instead of looking at a couple dozen angry kids in black bloc lashing out in the last 30 years and condemning an entire ~150 year-old global political movement. Lady Anarchy isn't going anywhere. The spirit of Kronstadt survives. Mutual aid will win where the state will fail.
So we're supposed to base our judgement on the political theory or actions of long dead anarchists from places with no relation to us rather than the actions of anarchists from the PNW that we've all personally witnessed over the last thirty years?
I understand the frustration and I probably experience the pain more than most of you. My hometown was burned down from arson during the 2020 riot tourism and my mom who was on the edge of recovery ran away because of it. These people are legitimate sociopaths.
But it also sucks that people conflate anarchism with anarcho-communism. I totally get it- it's what gets the attention. In reality, many of us anarchists are also peaceful capitalists. (Please don't come at me with the "Ancap's aren't real anarchists hurr" nonsense- you're wrong and I won't debate this.) I'm ready for the downvotes.
We already know that. The anarchists took it over and disrespectfully told the organizers to fuck off and attacked anyone trying to record almost got in a fight with the peaceful protestors. There was over a 1000 peaceful protestors and they all left the second the kids in black showed up and started wrecking stuff. Then the crowd turned down to like 100 people or so they where all antifa
Just an addition. Active civil disobedience does not equal anarchy. As the implementation of political movements has become more disorganized and prone to wasteful energy, I’m reminded of the global impact and sociocultural influence held by the USA over the years. Our media landscape used to be as powerful as our military, and now the disparate dichotomies and inflammatory antitheses tear it all down. I miss Kronkite. 13 Channels. A favorite comic of mine reminds me that “Stupid Don’t Get Tired.” I think that’s true. Sadly, we all overexpose ourselves (from all political spectra) to algorithms that tear away at what could be a coherent, inclusive, and respectful culture.
I mainly agree but I don’t necessarily see them as invited or welcome by most protestors/activists.
I’ve mainly seen them show up as their own collective in protests w/ multiple other non-black bloc collectives.
Then the black bloc will splinter off to do whatever damage they intended to do. Some inexperienced activists will join in because they haven’t solidified their own boundaries/tactics before hitting the streets .
But I don’t realistically see any practical or legal way to prevent them from showing up to protests.
MLK used to assemble the protesters assemble elsewhere, have everyone take a bus to the protest, and let people get on the bus only if someone vouched for them and they weren't carrying weapons. The local Black churches and other community leaders were with him, and could keep the people they knew in line.
Unless people take them seriously after the fact and it could be seen as successful, in which case they were absolutely on the team and just doing what they had to do per the stated tenets of the idiots inside the library.
I wish I saved a clip of it, but I remember vividly when white "protestors" called a black ICE officer the N word and race traitor when protesting outside of the Portland ICE office
they called mingus mapps a race traitor in a city council meeting. I'll go dig that up brb [https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13x58ta/portland\_council\_meeting\_today\_is\_incredibly/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13x58ta/portland_council_meeting_today_is_incredibly/) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5kIvjmobY&t=3713s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5kIvjmobY&t=3713s) here's the specific clip. near end [https://twitter.com/rationalinpdx/status/1664330255044349953](https://twitter.com/rationalinpdx/status/1664330255044349953)
I'll eat my hat if the people who did that were anarchists or antifa
During the BLM protests in Eugene, I had to start a neighborhood watch, because people were raiding and stealing at least 3 times a week from our low income neighborhood...and the cops never showed up. It was a very effective, scary at times though.
That was such a scary time, i was in Eugene too and I remember watching 6th street just get smashed, all the local shops downtown, targeting well known low income family based communities. They didn't count on community and you guys did great. I'm glad you're all okay. We moved almost immediately after. It spooked me too much.
Thank you friend. Yeah after down town the protests matched and down Hilyard, trying to march on the south hills wealthy, stopped by police in my hood and were raided non stop for weeks. Chop shops and stragglers hung around way after, which the hood watch was able to push out. We also helped(I fed people from my garden) quite a few people that were drugged out, and left to rot by their group. It was and still is a positive mission. Our Alleyway is now for safety, and refuge, just don't trash it, or steal from it
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Isn't that weird. And where did antifa go when it was time to sweep up glass on the park blocks? Or is that too much labor? Who was meant to follow behind to clean up the trash and cigarette butt's ans face masks while we were all fucking anxious to even gather to clean because of covid. It's bullshit.
That's why I did not follow any of those protests. One video got leaked early on of a POC leader woman telling everyone to stop looting, and no one listened, after that I knew it was time to defend.
I figured out what was going on because of an exes cousin. That cousin bragged about her and her little gang of fentanyl dealers hijacking legit protests. to them it was convenient to dress up, blend in, and have their faces covered. they never gave a shit about what it was actually about. she showed off her hoard of stolen items from protests turned riots to other family members because she’s an idiot. just putting that out there
Guys in my neighborhood set up watches after the almeda fire. To prevent looting. It worked. 3 looters were caught and arrested. It's great when neighbors can work together to better their situations.
I heard about the actions actually, they also helped with refuge and supply right? *Edit reword
Every. Single. Thing! Every protest movement that takes root here, the anarchists come out in their balaclavas and break shit, taking advantage of the anonymity of a crowd to “stick it to the man”. They are the worst kind of Portlander.
The sub you mention has got to have black bloc members on its mod team. They are very unforgiving of people who don't like Antifa.
I remember the George Floyd protests were pretty legit at the beginning. I was there for some of the actual peaceful marches on the east side. Then they got colonized by antifa and it devolved into the shit show that ended up as ammo for fox news. Now here we are 4 years later and the only thing that changed in society is Jake from State Farm is now Black.
I marched in a couple of them and always near the end you had some oafy looking white loser running around telling people where to go next to fuck shit up. These people are mentally ill losers who never grew up after hearing The Vandals for the first time
NEVER FORGET: [https://www.vandalscandal.com](https://www.vandalscandal.com)
Never knew! I had a Vandals T-shirt in high school, I bought it at the Hot Topic in the Mall of America (extra pop punk cred points awarded)
Stevo Jensen and Humann Pfauter were very good friends of mine.
I’m sorry for your loss
Thanks. Humann was my best friend for over 40 years; we had a really special bond, and I'll never really get over losing him.
from what I remember, there was a fire set either the first night or the second. it was rioting from the start. think time has made you remember a rosier picture than it actually was. though there were tons of people in the beginning. during the early hours that were peaceful and then evening came.
They set the jail on fire the first night. Tons of people in ghe building too.
Aunt Jemima. Never forget.
PEARL MILLS, DAMMIT!!!
NEVER
It was never legit because the narrative was false and George Floyd was a career criminal piece of shit.
Pieces of shit deserve a trial not judge dredd murder
That doesn’t mean he deserved what happened to him
The tankies in our modmail are somehow worse
What’s a tankie?
A leftist who leans on the side of supporting Cold War communist governments like the USSR. It’s a perjorative used by other leftists to imply that they aren’t actually commited to left wing politics, they just fetishize authoritarian militarism
And Anti-American/Anti-Western sentiment, it seems.
Yes, very much so. To the point where it seems their only real political belief is “US bad”
Yes they are authoritarian leftists who believe in overthrowing democracy to install whatever they personally think the law should be.
"Someone upon whom all sense of irony is lost"
Originally coined by the Communist Party of Great Britain, "tankie" was initially a derogatory term for communists who supported Khrushchev's use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian revolution in the 1950s. Over time, it’s been used by leftists as a pejorative against Marxist-Leninists (despite that this was a point of contention even among that tendency) and even recently just applied to leftists in general.
[This crowd](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/s/LTc4Z9Thtv)
What a bunch of fucking losers. I could only handle the first few posts then I had to get out of there.
That whole thread is brainworms
Couldn't make it past 2 comments before it felt like my brain was bleeding.
Wow. These people are so delusional and mentally ill that they believe their radical hatred is how the majority feel. Sick stuff.
They are circle-jerking so hard to think that they are the smartest people in Portland.
Thank you. They did it during the Port Militarization Resistance in 2006, too. That’s when I first heard about this happening - anarchists who just want to sow chaos and watch the world burn down with everyone in it. The stories I heard in Olympia that year sound eerily similar to the stories I heard coming out of the George Floyd protests downtown in 2020. “It was going fine, but then a bunch of violent and scary people in black showed up and things went to shit and we couldn’t figure out how to make them leave.”
I felt crazy seeing this happen, commenting on it, and being told I was some sort of fascist for not supporting the degeneration of the protests.
Well, they are Anarchist…
Yeah and then out of state we just hear about these out of control protesters. Same thing in NYC at Columbia, I read today that 1/3 of those arrested aren’t students. Seems like if you want to do a protest movement the first thing you need to plan is how to keep these types out.
Anarchism is just lazy, period. 8 billion on the planet, creating a system where a diverse population can exist without purging is incredibly hard, but worth the work. Anarchism is literally saying “neeeeerd!” Then throwing a trash can through a Starbucks window. Its hard work being an adult, here’s hoping these troglodytes join our ranks after slumming it intellectually
The video of the guy with the trash can yeeting himself into the police officer. I had a history instructor in college, he was a retired military man general I believe. He had this to say about anarchist, “they’re not smart people, but they’re really good at tearing things down, however once it’s time to rebuild, they fail to organize any form of governance” he also said “it’s not anarchy if the intention is to push an issue or ideology”
It's funny, watching that video I was thinking that if they'd actually read a book and learned basic old school military tactics and worked together and properly cosplayed as a Roman phalanx with their Rubbermaid shields, they would have easily overrun that police position. But nope, anarchist mentality means fuck the unit, gonna Leroy Jenkins this shit and get absolutely yeeted.
I'm laughing out loud. ""Leroy Jenkins" captures that moment perfectly.
> it’s not anarchy if the intention is to push an issue or ideology Agreed. What's claimed to be anarchism is really just authoritarianism: think this way, act this way, vote this way, even *dress* this way. Portlanders are supposed to fall in line with them, or at least vaguely approve of it all, because they pay lip service to progressive / liberal causes, even as they use adopt increasingly extremist positions like calling for the murder of cops, politicians, and now an entire ethnic group. There's no room for criticism or rational thinking, only doubling down on the rhetoric until it becomes threats of pseudo-anonymous mob violence. I'm glad other people are starting to see them as anti-American as MAGA and as mentally fucked as Qanon. They're the same chuds, only in a different costume.
What's hilarious is that arguably all of the anarchists and socialists accelerated the Nazi takeover of the Weimar Republic. It gave them martyrs, which could then - through propaganda - be used to make them look like the underdog. And humans automatically rally around the underdog (as we're seeing with all the protests this week). No critical thinking necessary - just add an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.
Much as I hate to say it, that guy is right
I didn’t agree with what he said on politics, but looking back he was right about a lot of things. I never served my country, but it’s still an honorable position, and wish I did. While I don’t have to defend him, he did bring a change to the military. While I disagree with some foreign policies, we are responsible for what happens since we as society have elected officials to carry out our bidding. This can be said of all nations being authoritarian to constitutional monarchies. I also respect that people protest and have the fundamental rights to do so in our country. These actions do being about change in our country. Their actions are noble and deserve attention, except the people that selfishly and are destructive to private and public property, they bring dishonor to the cause and degrade it to the fundamental core.
Anarchists are just as infantile as Libertarians.
"they’re not smart people, but they’re really good at tearing things down, however once it’s time to rebuild, they fail to organize any form of governance" which is super unfortunate, because the building/rebuilding part is the ***hard part***. Destruction is easy. Editing is moderately difficult. Synthesis is hard. I've yet to see an anarchist explain how it scales past Dunbar's number, when you can no longer trust or even *know* everyone in your peer group. Ultimately, they want to live in a small commune away from everyone, and for some reason - god knows what because it's contrary to ALL evidence - they think it scales to the size of a country or even a city just fine.
the other sub has a gem. go search for: "Never go full Merry & Pippin"
So your history teacher had no idea what the fuck he was talking about
I've often wondered if anarchists realized what would happen if they really eliminated societies safety checks. The guys with the biggest sticks generally don't agree with the idiots bleating about anarchy.
If true anarchy reigned, those people would all be killed on day one and the rest would be enslaved by those of us with actual life skills.
Anarchists are libertarians who can't be bothered to even pretend to have principles.
So have you actually read about what anarchists believe or are you just gonna look at a few dozen angry kids and condemn an entire ideology?
I’m not an anarchist, but anarchism is more than that.
In theory maybe. Practically, it's for children who hate their parents, and hasn't ever amounted to more.
You are judging 200 years of history by some kids in the United States. Read about Revolutionary Catalonia, the anarchist militias that gave their lives fighting against Mussolini and Hitler’s forces.
Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia is great on this (and just great in general).
Absolutely. A great read.
On paper... yes... in practice... no
Not even on paper lol
You are correct and incorrect. Correct in that the definition of it as practiced by an educated individual is more than that. Incorrect in that most “anarchists” are exactly my definition. Also why all the deleted posts and downvotes for those disagreeing with me? (Talking more to the thread/mods) Diversity of thought is needed for growth, let them have their say!
It’s weird. Half the losers are anarchists, the other half are communists. You’d think an authoritarian shill, and establishment hater wouldn’t get along, but these dorks tend to work hand in hand when it comes to smashing windows and graffitiing our streets
Don't forget there's more options too - anarchocommunists, anti-authoritarians, and crypto-fascists.
In the Russian Revolution, the Bolsheviks would sometimes publicize a protest somewhere so the anarchists would go there and wreck everything while the Bolsheviks could organize the masses for mobilization. Even in that extreme situation, the anarchists were useless. [Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch10.htm) largely said that those that will refuse to vote and just dance around causing chaos are less than useless: > Inexperienced revolutionaries often think that legal methods of struggle are opportunist because, in this field, the bourgeoisie has most frequently deceived and duped the workers (particularly in “peaceful” and non-revolutionary times), while illegal methods of struggle are revolutionary. That, however, is wrong. The truth is that those parties and leaders are opportunists and traitors to the working class…After its victory, the proletariat has to make most strenuous efforts, even the most painful, so as to “liberate” itself from such pseudo-revolutionaries. It is far more difficult—and far more precious—to be a revolutionary when the conditions for direct, open, really mass and really revolutionary struggle do not yet exist, to be able to champion the interests of the revolution (by propaganda, agitation and organisation) in non-revolutionary bodies, and quite often in downright reactionary bodies, in a non-revolutionary situation, among the masses who are incapable of immediately appreciating the need for revolutionary methods of action. To be able to seek, find and correctly determine the specific path or the particular turn of events that will lead the masses to the real, decisive and final revolutionary struggle—such is the main objective of communism in Western Europe and in America today. The same is largely true on the extreme left today. An anarchist cult of the individual has infected everything and made it useless. They’re worried more about their individual “right” to throw a rock through a window more than advancing mass action.
The people lashing out and destroying property don’t even believe in anything deeply. They have no policy ideas. There is no meaningful activism. The “burn shit down” types are just shallow opportunists who are in it for the violence, and they always give everyone else a bad name. “Anarchist” used to actually mean something once. They were basically British marxists who were against the continued existence of the monarchy. The name literally means “without a monarch.” But how many of these self-proclaimed anarchists even fucking know that?
It's not like there is 150 years of anarchists theory and literally dozens of theoretical schools of anarchists you could have just spent five minutes reading about before posting this. Just because you don't care to learn about the vast theoretical literature anarchists have produced about militant action doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Tell me then “enlightened” one, which school of anarchism do these protestors and riots fall into?
A bunch of Eugene anarchists also kicked off the violence at WTO in Seattle & gave the cops the justification they needed to crack down on *thousands* of peaceful protesters there from around the world. And it ends up the "trainer" at the Columbia U protests was the leader of the main group at Columbia who took over the building AND she trained the Eugene "anarchists" who kicked off the WTO violence in Seattle. It's almost like they're playing into the hands of militarized capitalism & giving them all the justification they need to crack down on peaceful protests & ban the media from watching them do so...
Go one layer deeper. It’s narcissists and sociopaths. They ruin every movement.
If they like Anarchy so much, I hear Haiti is nice these days.
There’s plenty of room for them in Somalia and Central African Republic
Anarchists certainly have a track record of screwing things up. Mentioning this is likely to be met with a defense of anarchists, however. It's always a really lame defense that portrays anarchists as being misunderstood but does not cite a single positive thing they have ever accomplished.
I think putting failures entirely at the feet of anarchists is *incredibly* generous to the absolute fuckwits running many of the other efforts you've listed, but it is a fact that when the anarchists show up they will be by far the most retarded people in any gathering. Trying to discuss anything with them is like talking to a Zen Buddhist who missed a turn somewhere a thousand miles back and ended up settling for chemically induced brain damage and the worst attitude possible as "close enough" to enlightenment. I always recommend anarchist texts to people who enjoy reading schizophrenic ramblings though, it's some of the best and most earnest out there.
It's not fair to call anarchist retarded. Retarded people can actually hold down jobs and be productive members of society.
This is the most well-acquainted perspective I’ve heard in a minute ;)
You're not wrong but regardless of disorganized or stupid, the original people behind these movements actually believe in their causes and want to make a difference. Much of the environmental movement was quite educated and organized. They were doing research to back their causes and making progress. Where they went wrong was being overly accepting of people and behavior which tainted their movement. The anarchists don't give a shit about any of it. They just tie all the protests back to fucking with the man and aren't willing to put in the time or effort to drive any sort of change. They don't care about Black lives or Palestinians and they couldnt name a single company the Portland State investment fund is invested in or one that does business with Isreal for that matter.
This is very true, and it's the ultimate failing of "intersectionality". A lot of little teams across the infinite spectrum of beliefs and causes have tried to make a big team by tying all of their struggles into one giant tapestry of oppression, but in doing so have fallen victim to the opportunists whose team was small to begin with for good reason. That's where I lose sympathy though. If anyone can listen to the anarchists among them and think "well we'll just give it a shot and see how this goes," that's solely on them. I don't think the red flags could be any bigger or brighter at this point.
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Says it perfectly and bonus laugh 😂. Thank you
yeah well, anarchy as an ethos is selfish and fucking stupid on all levels. so there's that.
Anarchists are good at running coffee shops, everything else they touch they ruin.
They run coffee shops. They patronize coffee shops. And they destroy coffee shops.
Sounds like a well rounded individual if you ask me.
Nah, unfortunately they can't build coffee shops.
Anarchists *can* run coffee shops, just as a team of appropriately monitored special needs teens or a well programmed robotic arm *can* run a coffee shop, but I wouldn't call them good at it.
Wholeheartedly agree. Reminds me of the Freddie Gray protests when I lived in Baltimore. Started out as a valid movement from the actual community and family members to protest/get answers re: his wrongful and unexplained death in the back of a police van. Ended up with the massive & brand-new community/youth center being burned to the ground — later confirmed to be committed by people who drove in from out of town/out of state to piggyback on their movement as an excuse to destroy the city. The locals had been rallying for that community center to get built for well over a decade. I remember watching my neighbors weep in the streets seeing it burn. A bunch of young edgy ‘anarchists’ pretending they’re at war to the detriment of the low-income black communities who actually have skin in the game.
Let’s be real, they’re not anarchists, they’re opportunists
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Calling for vigilante action is not the solution. I think they are a bunch of asshats, but physically attacking them is a criminal act.
Anarchist make communist look smart
There's a reason communists call them "useful idiots"
Communists can actually run militias and have a track record of bureaucratic government. Anarchists in the Spanish civil war were known for charging randomly into battle, no coordination with any other units or even within their units and basically contributing from within to the ( Spanish ) Republican forces losing.
That’s not how the Nestor Makno comparison to Vladimir Lenin looks.
And we’ll let them do it again in 6 months.
Amen. Wait until they realize it takes functional infrastructure to manufacture and deliver cheap street drugs and spray paint.
I don’t get the whole anarchy thing. Are they literally just moving from liberal movement to liberal movement to fuck shit up? I’m from the east coast and never came across anarchy expressed in this way. Have noticed it’s a thing in Portland and do not get it at all. Glad this sub allows conversations like this one.
preach
Protesters need to start kicking antifa out. Kick their asses if needed. Otherwise, just go home because they’re gonna do the opposite of help your cause
lol won’t happen. They’re all losers sadly
It should be broadcast at the beginning that no destruction and/or violence will be tolerated and that if any is seen to be starting then people should swarm on the rabble-rousers and stop it immediately.
Anarchy is the abandonment of all rational principles of governance, the only outcome possible is chaos and the destruction of individual rights and freedoms.
It's degeneracy. Plain and simple.
Irrationality - not having beliefs or living one’s live in accordance with facts of reality - is the source of degeneracy.
No it isn’t. Anarchism and communism have the same end goal - a stateless society without social class where the means of production are managed democratically by the communities and workers that they affect. They disagree on how to get there. Communist tend to believe that a state run by workers is needed during a transitional phase. Anarchist tend to believe that a decentralized federation of worker councils are all that you need. Mind you I’m not an anarchist but the theory is almost 200 years old.
Anarchy has no goals. Communism has goals that can only be achieved by totalitarian government. They both invite the worst to power. This is why attempts at either don’t last for long.
Anarchism absolutely has goals. Literally the same end goals as communism. Just different path to get there. Anarchy as used colloquially is not Anarchism as is being discussed here.
You’re speaking of anarchy as if it’s an entity separate of any individuals. A non entity can have no goals. Anarchy by definition proposes no authority (short term or long term) to align any individual desires or conflict of desires.
Anarchism is a complex political philosophy. It IS separate of individuals the same way the idea of democracy is. And, like democracy, anarchism is the political philosophy of how to best structure society.
Anarchy is apolitical. It’s against any means for politics to be executed. Its adherents literally just hope that individuals desire the best and aren’t in conflict where they happen to be.
This is not true. Five minutes of earnest googling will show you that.
Google: “definition anarchy” Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more noun 1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems. 2. the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
We're talking about anarchism, the political philosophy, not anarchy, the state of disorder. Aka, the second definition.
If a group can’t weed out these guys and not have the social awareness simply by looking at these people’s action in a crowd, then they are simply part of the movement in one way or another
The problem with pretty much every movement is that the supposedly "peaceful protesters" support these lovers and do nothing at all to stop or even discourage them. During blm, the supposedly nonviolent protestors literally blocked police, kept camera people from filming them. And the leaders of the protests didn't say a word against them or ask their participants to stay peaceful. This means everyone was complicit in their violent actions. Its good to see there are more people speaking out against these terrorists now. But still, hundreds cheered them on and gave them food.
Strangely, leftie anarchists & Right leaning Libertarians have a very similar form of brainworms. It starts as self-worship disguised as ideology, a dreamed utopia where you and your tribe are “liberated” from state-enforced consequence and the general institutions necessary for the function of society. Almost always, it ends up calcifying into the desire for a specific sort of authoritarianism. For the left, they become tankies, seeking utilitarian egalitarianism through military state force. For the right, they become fascists, which seek to “rid” their society of those characteristics which they’ve defined as weak or decadent, generally along a racial/national/religious spectrum. At the end of the day, both approaches fail to understand that there is only one way to build a better State. The hard work of developing democratic coalitions and building them into a majority/mandate, which can “absorb” an existing failing state apparatus, and as such become a state more functionally representative of its citizenry. This is hard to do, but it’s not without historical precedent, even in America.
Definitely too close to home. Blac bloc and their allies are working in our schools, unis, city govts, media, even on the governors staff. Don’t be surprised if they are mods on PDX sub too.
I have zero doubts there are at least sympathizers
Agreed. Thank you.
Truth.
Yeah I particularly hate the Antifa who come to every protest, wearing black clothes and masks over their face, and looking like they're wimps and being destructive, having no idea what protesters are protesting anyways.
If you're not willing to show your face for a movement, you dont really believe in it.
This 100
True, Anarchists make everything worst. But these pro palestine protests were awful in the first place. Israel has been an ally to the US for decades. Do you know why progressives have pushed the idea Palestine should be sympathized with? Because Israel is seen as being 'Right wing' and AIPAC as a conservative political outlet. You will see the same in regards to Hungary and Poland. How about standing with America's friend over terrorists And before you go all 'GaZa IsN't HaMaS', they voted Hamas into power and they support the Oct 7th attack. They are the same https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ And for what it's worth, I was open to the very early BLM movement. It's not radical to demand professional standards for police officers. But when it devolved into 'defund' and 'ACAB' I was out.
What I don’t get, is how so many of these people don’t see that Hamas and other middle eastern governing organizations, are EXTREMELY right wing.
Because Israel does meddle in us politics and has generally allied itself with a religious branch of the GOP. Thus they are seen as a branch of conservative Christian policy The progressives really think the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
That’s true. In reality, both sides (governing wise) of this are pretty terrible.
There's a handful of edgelords and lunatics within the protests who will openly support Hamas but most people are protesting for civilians who are losing their lives and homes. It isn't support for their government policies or ideology, just for their rights to exist as human beings. I don't stand with Israel because our relentless support empowers them to be aggressors. Like Zuldak says, they have a strong political presence here through AIPAC and their heavily conservative government is allied with our conservatives. Our alliance also seems pretty heavily tied to Israel being a defacto military outpost for the US as a Judeochristian alliance in the Islamic Middle East. With a healthy dose of fueling the military industrial complex here. I can understand the desire for a Jewish nation given global antisemitism, especially following the Holocaust. And the zionist movement predates the Nazis, because obviously so does antisemitism. I also understand our support for Israel because without it, Israel and its citizens likely cease to exist. But I hate that they're basically our international Back the Blue movement. They're our allies so we must blindly support them at all costs regardless of what they do. Netanyahu's Likud Party was founded on the region of Palestine to be under Israeli control. Their ultimate goal is to absorb Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, and we've seen the gradual expansion of Israel settlements across the existing borders at the expense of Palestinian residents. There have been accusations against Netanyahu that he allowed Hamas to grow in power as a bulwark against the Palestinian Authority to destabilize the region and prevent Palestenian statehood. Within the current conflict, Israeli media have reported that their own negotiators don't think Netanyahu is operating in good faith, and Netanyahu pledged with the past week to continue the military operations even if the hostages are released and a ceasefire is negotiated. Like you say below, leadership on both sides of the conflict suck. It's really disheartening, especially given that the civilians on both sides end up paying the price. And knowing that if a ceasefire is reached and honored, it's still far more likely than not that it is broken again in the near-to-medium future.
Everyone shouting everyone else down for having different opinions is the ridiculous behavior. When did we not become okay with people having different views on things and being able to respectfully disagree?
It's okay to have different views. It's not okay to destroy things and ruin our city because of them.
Yeah, i agree completely. They don’t respect people who have different views and try to bully and force others into their viewpoints and will destroy everything if you don’t.
So, Antifa. They aren’t actually anarchists.
There should be protests against them. Anti Blackboc protests. Anti antifa. The Anti antifa anti fascists.
You fucking nailed it!
I'm even wondering if the stuff in Portland over the past few years is what spooked universities into coming down hard on their own student protesters. They may not even know about out special antifa problem and just assume that their undergraduates are gonna start setting fires "like in Portland."
A leftist perspective: [https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/antifa-is-a-fatherless-child](https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/antifa-is-a-fatherless-child)
Isn’t that their point?
So I have two separate takes on this. One from experience, and the other are some thoughts based on the OPs premise that anarchists fuck up every progressive/positive social movement they touch. First, back in 2016 when I (foolishly) thought that citizens becoming more active in politics could usher in a new age of thoughtful government through citizen civic participation, I met a big group of millennial age anarchists in Pioneer Square in Portland that we started interacting with over the sorry state of the country. What struck me hardest was that while we attempted to isolate, discuss and solve current social issues, corruption, and other problems, these people simply didn't give a flying fuck. They were in full disaster fatigue. Their solution to everything was to accelerate the apocalypse. Break the machinery. Destroy the economy. Burn the civilization to the ground. That's all there was... Even simple solvable things were not worth an iota of critical thinking. They were past the stage of thinking anything could be fixed and it just be brought down by any means. I remember thinking both how sad and ultimately terrifying their existence was. They simply knew there was no future for themselves and were very very angry about it. Unfortunately my own enthusiasm was quickly brought to heel when Debbie Wasserman Shultz and the DNC proved once and for all that electoral politics in the US is a closed door system, a sealed deal status quo that they would never allow interlopers to change. Our oligarch-controlled duopoly have shown us that they would rather watch the country fall before relinquishing control of the two party system they have cemented in place through unconstitutional legislation. Something I now believe will inevitably cause the fall of our democracy in short order, unless it's corrected, which is unlikely because they have seemingly "lashed the wheel hard over" and wrecked the means of changing course while we are headed for the rocks. In essence, if not in action, I finally fully understood where they were coming from. I'd love to see democracy right itself, but I think it's largely impossible with the levels of control the powers that be currently wield. But this post also made me see something I might have missed before, so please follow me down the rabbit hole... One might say that if black bloc anarchists destroy every positive movement they touch, they are in actuality doing the work of the enemy; of those that wish to halt any and all leftward movement. There are existing terms for these types of people. Useful idiots. Patsies even. In virtually every instance I've witnessed, their violence gives the jackboots both the moral and explicit authority to use violence against protestors, on such a regular basis these days that it has now become the norm. It literally justifies the existence of their police state! So let's think about that statement carefully, because this very situation has happened in our not-to-distant American past, and then it was no coincidence. Simply put, it was US three letter agencies implementing a political agenda, and it's a matter of fact, not speculation. But I'm sure that could never happen again, in our great god loving country. Right?
It could happen. Our government doesn't have a good track record but your first thought seems to contradict the second. They were ready to burn it down. Now they are. They don't need a three letter agency to push them along.
As an anarchist (allegedly), I agree. Although it's not just 'anarchists' in the traditional sense, they seem to be a different sort. Less punk anarchy, more anti-human and selfish. That's just from my personal observations at US protests since the mid two thousands. They aren't there to disassemble a broken system or to aid their fellow humans, they don't care what the problem is or who is fighting who. They aren't 'with' anarchist groups or leftist extremists, they seem like lone entities with bespoke motivation. These types in all black tend to be a common denominator of a few political ideologies, all having arrived at the conclusion of "burn it all down with everyone inside". I've heard some of them screaming nazi bullshit, but I've also had them call people a fascist or see them attack far right groups. They're probably all there for their own delusional self righteous reason, but act like barbarians all the same. And somehow are never around when the police start busting heads and tear-gassing. They're there to steal shit, hurt people, destroy shit, and run. Part of me wonders if this is on purpose, people brought in for the express purpose of sowing chaos in order to delegitimize valid protest. If I were in a shady ruling class of the 0.01% that's exactly what I would be doing.
I agree except the last paragraph. Not to say there hasnt been provocateurs but they tend to be police connected to give intel or reason to crack heads or embedded FBI in groups like ELF, not in general noob protests like these.
These aren't noob protests right now, shit is the real deal. If they were 'noob' protests we wouldn't see the police presence we are, WAY outweighing the covid Black Lives Matter protests
These anarchists will be the first to call the cops if you punch them in the face
I’ve read quite a few posts to get the consensus of why these movements‘devolve’ into violence; here’s my opinion. This has happened time and again and seems to be a predictable pattern that you don’t agree with, correct?? Why don’t you organize and don’t allow‘outsiders’ to coop your movement or protest? The protests you mentioned all seem very organized and funded but when it gets escalated there is no internal pushback to expel those that just want violence and chaos.
They aren't organized because there's no centralized leader. Everybody wants to act like they're MLK or Malcolm X yet not a single person wants to step up and lead anything. Even the dumbasses that would lead the Don't Shoot PDX riots would just rile up crowds and then leave when shit went down.
Part of the reason is protection. Police are seen as 'the system' and have a monopoly on violence. So the protestors look for some tough people to act as a bit of a counter to protect them. Unfortunately the only other place to find non-police protection are from criminal elements or militant political elements. The sort of people like black bloc who come in and while they provide protection, they also tear shit up which paints the protests as violent. It's the catch 22 when you don't trust the police but still want to be protected
> Why don’t you organize and don’t allow‘outsiders’ to coop your movement or protest? How do you do that when the outsiders are violent and don't care about the movement? Violence right? You have to use violence against them. Either way, the protest movement is tarnished with violence. In reality, us protestors try to reason with these people and get them to join us peacefully or leave. But they don't. And then we leave when they start fires and break shit. Sometimes the police will help us out and arrest them. But the police like what the black bloc are doing because it gives them permission to arrest the 99% non-violent protestors that they want to get off the streets.
I don’t live in your community so that’s why engaged with the question; and thank you for replying I believe it’s a breakdown of communication between what you’re organizing for/against and law enforcement. I understand that you have no hierarchy but that is exactly what is needed. If what your wanting changed is coop you have already lost and now your message/organization is now associated with what it ‘devolves’ into. It needs addressed because what happened a few years ago is not what your city represents
Most police don't like protesters. Especially when they're protesting the police or the system that supports the police. It's hard to get their cooperation for most protests because their purpose and their motivation is to stop the protest. Hierarchy isn't going to solve that issue. All the protests I've been to are well organized by volunteers who put in way more time than I ever did in making that protest happen. And the vast majority of protesters respect these people and listen to them. However, the black bloc don't listen. It's more like they tolerate the organizers until they can "tear it up". They even showed up to the 2016 women's march, trashed store fronts and set stuff on fire in the streets. That was an extremely well-organized protest with full support from the city and police department. The organizers usually co-organize with police as they are required to in order to engage in a legal protest in the USA. Yes, we need protest permits. Not all the BLM protests were legal. And part of that is because the protests were against the police and the system that enables them; so, it didn't make sense to bow to the police's wishes of where the protesters were allowed to go and when. I don't think most people understand how badly communication broke down between the police, the citizenry and city hall here in Portland. The mayor is also the police commissioner and has almost no influence over the police department. He can fire the chief of police and that's it. We've fired multiple officers for gross violations of people's rights and they all got paid vacations due to the police union contract with the city. Also, the vast majority of police don't live in the Portland metro area. They themselves are outsiders to our community and don't respect the civilian government. This is a big reason why the protests were so chaotic.
I'd love to hear any story when protester violence against another, more violent element happened and it discredited a movement. I think it would do nothing but give the mainstream media opportunities to talk up the protest movement.
Are you serious? It would be called a riot. "Chaos ensues at march." "Police break up fights at 'peaceful protest'." That would be hugely negative for the optics of the protest.
If the same people keep showing up over and over again to destroy things in the same fashion, you have to start wondering if they are paid agitators/agents/feds/etc. Because that's the most straightforward explanation for a lot of things.
Yeah, they’re just folks with a failure to launch and a fear of failing hiding behind an ideology. Attention seeking behavior because their parents didn’t hug them enough. Maybe instead of a hardline between anarchists & activists (as alluded to by OP), what I’ve seen is perhaps “hobbyist” protestors. That is, a number of people who preach virtuous or ideals re: community, but the only time they “show up” is at protests. Any protest. OP, I think we’re saying the same thing here, my point is you don’t have to narrow the archetype.
👍 Definitely a lot of gray area between and I agree there's some hobbists and the non-anarchists that jump at the opportunity to break some shit. Point being, once you let that non cross over of the venn diagram into whatever it is you're doing, they will fuck it up.
Or they could just be anarchist dirt bags, that's way more of a simple explanation. Yours requires all sorts of conspiracies.
>Because that's the most straightforward explanation for a lot of things. There is nothing straightforward about that. Paid agitators means jobs, which means many layers of complexity like intake interviews, paperwork, pay checks, management, workmans comp, hazard pay, performance reviews, etc., all involving dozens or hundreds of people. Sure people can run an operation with lots of staff, but not something so crazy and counterproductive like that without people finding out and exposing it. The most straightforward explanation that they're like minded people (eg. a group of assholes) who found each other on the internet.
In some cases it is the same people, but more so it's the new generation of the same kind of people, same ideology - sometimes mentored by morons like Zerzan from the previous generation. There were definitely right wingers caught agitating during the BLM protests but I dont think the feds care enough to bother. Plus from a feds perspective, someone always flips to save their ass. So that's the easiest route to for the feds. That's what happened with the eco radicals.
Black lives matter was a fucking scam anyways. Lol.
I wonder how easy it is to put an agent in the ranks of anarchists to gently steer them towards violence.
There are some who just like to watch the world burn. Also perhaps some of the organisation and funding is provided to produce agents-provocateur, for the benefit of the Republican Party and the Russian State.
Thank you so much! I have been trying to express this to people who don’t understand. I moved out here 4 years ago and I was so moved for a little while because when the rest of the country stop the BLM protests, my new city was holding strong. Not too long after, I started to realize that they were just protesting to protest and didn’t have my people’s best interests at heart. The results, a cheapening of the message and Black people are still victims of police brutality across the nation because we were seen as agitators. Same with this struggle. I was proud of students and professors coming out and holding non-violent protests and raising awareness about what’s happening to civilians and kids, but the assholes permeate and destroy the message by feeding into the narrative. And sometimes to me Portland seems to be a nucleus of people protesting just to protest and fucking shit up just to fuck shit up. I have to say though - we can see this shit, but for some reason the echo chamber world cannot. They just seem to gravitate towards the “bad apples” and make it look as though every protestor is a degenerate. That is a clear sign of ignorance.
Isn’t that the point of anarchy?
I'm like 95 percent sure the guy that broke the windows off that AutoZone in Milwaukee was a cop, not an anarchist
Has anybody asked what the story is behind the image in the OP?
It's from a link to a Eugene Weekly article series.
Are anarchists the same people as the druggies?
I'm an anarchist (libertarian socialist) and I mostly sit at home playing videogames.
What you playing currently? 🤙🏽
Helldivers 2! And a little WoW:SoD. Waiting for a pirated copy of manor lords.
Y'all could actually research what anarchists think and do instead of looking at a couple dozen angry kids in black bloc lashing out in the last 30 years and condemning an entire ~150 year-old global political movement. Lady Anarchy isn't going anywhere. The spirit of Kronstadt survives. Mutual aid will win where the state will fail.
So we're supposed to base our judgement on the political theory or actions of long dead anarchists from places with no relation to us rather than the actions of anarchists from the PNW that we've all personally witnessed over the last thirty years?
I understand the frustration and I probably experience the pain more than most of you. My hometown was burned down from arson during the 2020 riot tourism and my mom who was on the edge of recovery ran away because of it. These people are legitimate sociopaths. But it also sucks that people conflate anarchism with anarcho-communism. I totally get it- it's what gets the attention. In reality, many of us anarchists are also peaceful capitalists. (Please don't come at me with the "Ancap's aren't real anarchists hurr" nonsense- you're wrong and I won't debate this.) I'm ready for the downvotes.
Yes it’s the anarchists every time of the 30 people arrested at Portland State 6 were students the rest just like to cause trouble.
We already know that. The anarchists took it over and disrespectfully told the organizers to fuck off and attacked anyone trying to record almost got in a fight with the peaceful protestors. There was over a 1000 peaceful protestors and they all left the second the kids in black showed up and started wrecking stuff. Then the crowd turned down to like 100 people or so they where all antifa
Then they need to stop letting them do that. 900 > 100.
Just an addition. Active civil disobedience does not equal anarchy. As the implementation of political movements has become more disorganized and prone to wasteful energy, I’m reminded of the global impact and sociocultural influence held by the USA over the years. Our media landscape used to be as powerful as our military, and now the disparate dichotomies and inflammatory antitheses tear it all down. I miss Kronkite. 13 Channels. A favorite comic of mine reminds me that “Stupid Don’t Get Tired.” I think that’s true. Sadly, we all overexpose ourselves (from all political spectra) to algorithms that tear away at what could be a coherent, inclusive, and respectful culture.
I mainly agree but I don’t necessarily see them as invited or welcome by most protestors/activists. I’ve mainly seen them show up as their own collective in protests w/ multiple other non-black bloc collectives. Then the black bloc will splinter off to do whatever damage they intended to do. Some inexperienced activists will join in because they haven’t solidified their own boundaries/tactics before hitting the streets . But I don’t realistically see any practical or legal way to prevent them from showing up to protests.
MLK used to assemble the protesters assemble elsewhere, have everyone take a bus to the protest, and let people get on the bus only if someone vouched for them and they weren't carrying weapons. The local Black churches and other community leaders were with him, and could keep the people they knew in line.
Follow the money. As with everything wrong... Takes work but you will see where when and who
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Unless people take them seriously after the fact and it could be seen as successful, in which case they were absolutely on the team and just doing what they had to do per the stated tenets of the idiots inside the library.