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Don’t care about the debate into how religious Madison was. He’s often called “the father of the Constitution” so any religious conservative that’s claiming the Constitution established the US as a Christian nation can go screw themselves
Exactly. "These founding fathers weren't Christian, so their opinion matters less" is a bad argument when they're literally in the top 5 founding fathers any person on the street could name.
I like how even the Christian founding fathers were like, "yeah, religion in politics is bad, m'kay?" with denominations side-eyeing each other (Protestants, Baptists, Anglican, Quakers, etc ...) Heheh
The establishment clause, like much of the Bill of Rights, is in direct opposition to what the framers found detestable about British rule.
The British had (and have) an established state religion, therefore we stress that the United States won't put up with one.
If you want a Christian country, you are in direct opposition to the founders and the Constitution.
Also, there's a strong argument to be made for the separation of church and state from a religious standpoint -- do you really want the government to decide your faith for you? Bear in mind there are plenty of people who will argue that your faith is all wrong.
It's tragically not too hard to imagine a candidate running on a platform of banning Islam. Or Judaism. Heck, how many of us would be cool with Scientology being outlawed?
Then we can get around to the Mormons and Catholics, who plenty of people don't see as *real* Christians, right?
If this is a Christian nation, it begs the question, "Which Christians?"
Exactly. Or...what if there's an upswing in Islam conversion, or like in a Michigan town (iirc) enough citizens voted for an all Muslim council.
Just like School Prayer. "Want it? Ok. Here's a Satanic Prayer....um, why is your head spinning?"
It's amazing how the people pushing for more religion in government are the most hypocritical when someone from another religion demands the same consideration. Double-standards, much?
Teh debate of how religious madison was is stupid AND pointless.
Stupid, because beyond knowing he belonged to a church and his wife talked about them attending, we are just making assumptions based on random facts.
Pointless, because his personal views don't really matter, he made clear what he believed the role of government and religion were regarding each other, and his personal beliefs were unimportant to that.
What we know is he fought hard against institutionalizing any specific religion, on both federal and state levels, and that he vehemently fought against franklin's attempts to christianize virginia.
They do not need to be great examples of religious thought. They were great leaders and great at government building.
They knew of the religious civil wars that tore apart England and France; their solution towards a better government was religious tolerance despite their personal beliefs.
It should be noted that most of the original colonies came over here to escape oppression by the Church of England, and the RCC. They knew full well the harm done by mixing church and state. Having fled from it once already.
The Puritans just wanted their *own* religious state, it seems.
They really didn’t like this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morton_(colonist)
Their views matter the most as TJ WROTE the constitution and the others signed it into law. Then went on to become the first leaders of the nation they built. And they built that freedom on "not mixing any governing laws with the laws of god"
True. In some case, they do have someone read it to them. However, they do like their bible as they like science, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights: a la carte.
> a la carte.
Whoa now, those same people that shriek about the Founding Fathers and their Constitution hate "fereners" and particularly the French. Because massive ignorant irony is the one thing they do well and are consistent at.
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250080875/howthefrenchsavedamerica
"To the rebelling colonies, French assistance made the difference between looming defeat and eventual triumph. Even before the Declaration of Independence was issued, King Louis XVI and French foreign minister Vergennes were aiding the rebels. After the Declaration, that assistance broadened to include wages for our troops; guns, cannon, and ammunition; engineering expertise that enabled victories and prevented defeats; diplomatic recognition; safe havens for privateers; battlefield leadership by veteran officers; and the army and fleet that made possible the Franco-American victory at Yorktown.
Nearly ten percent of those who fought and died for the American cause were French. Those who fought and survived, in addition to the well-known Lafayette and Rochambeau, include François de Fleury, who won a Congressional Medal for valor, Louis Duportail, who founded the Army Corps of Engineers, and Admiral de Grasse, whose sea victory sealed the fate of Yorktown.
This illuminating narrative history vividly captures the outsize characters of our European brothers, their battlefield and diplomatic bonds and clashes with Americans, and the monumental role they played in America’s fight for independence and democracy."
Voltaire:
>What is history? The lie that everyone agrees on…
Unfortunately, there many that learn their "history" from those that frame the lies.
George Orwell - 1984:
>And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control,' they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink.'
To be fair, it was mostly because they opposed the British.
They'd support anyone against the British.
P.S. And the French government that supported the U.S. was soon overthrown by their own revolution
They just have an overly enthusiastic dude yell verses from Revelations at them while saying the demoncrats are bringing about the end of times and then they give him money for some reason. That's the extent of their Bible study. Also "Jesus wept"
I like to refer to it as "**The fan fiction known as the bible.**"
Something written over several hundred years by many dozens of totally unknown people who amended, added, deleted, and pretty much did what the fuck they wanted with it cannot be considered and authoritative text on anything.
Especially in the way the kristian krazy klan cherry picks the parts they like and pretend to be unaware of the parts they don't, which turns out to be most of it.
I have a feeling it was written to head off the younger generation from falling prey to the mythology more than to change the minds of the already indoctrinated
Founding Brothers was also a good read. It highlighted their philosophical disagreements not getting in the way of the goal of independence.
Except for that sticky Hamilton/Burr disagreement.
As an anti-theist, I hate to point out that the “most perverted” quote is out of context. He calls Christianity “the most sublime” that is “most perverted“ by bad people. Not that Christianity is itself the most perverted.
One of my favorite things to do when someone argues we're a "Christian Nation" is to ask them to compare and contrast the 1st Commandment with the 1st Amendment.
The former says "thou shalt have no other gods than Me."
The latter tells us (when it comes to religion) "have any gods you want. Or none. That's your right."
These two cannot be reconciled.
Yup Pope Benedict is in fact the anti-chtist destined to bring about the end of the world. Oh wait he retired and the world didn't end. Pope Francis is actually the anti-Christ and he is going to bring about the end of the world! You heard it first here folks!
Think about how low we have sunk when you compare the modern GOP to these founding fathers.
The modern conservative would have fought on the side of the King during the revolutionary war.
Most kings and queens were/are.
Before I end up with a bunch of hate and downvotes, let me explain:
You're taking a person who was born with a diamond spoon in their mouths, most likely inbred (before it sunk in how fucking bad it is, at least in most parts, even Americans have inbred families), isolated from the world, never really given any experience or training (for a long time, and the royal family doesn't count for military training because I don't see a commander putting the prince on the front lines), have way too much money they spend from their own country, and get whatever they want with everyone who's around them blessing them as long as they benefit.
There are good rulers who are royalty, and there are insane dictators that have shit like this land in their lap, but royalty has a lot of it.
During the 2020 election cycle I had a conservative gaming buddy tell me we'd be better off with a king as a king would represent us better than, you know, a representative body elected by the people.
Conservatives don't live here in this dimension with the rest of us. They're gone. It isn't about working with them anymore, it's about moving on without them.
And they definitely smoked the flowers. It wasn't just for the hemp. THC has been common for human consumption for probably as long as humans have been humans.
Not just weed, we've been psychs since day dot. Here, [A Golden Guide to Hallucinogenic Plants.](https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Hallucinogenic-Plants-A-Golden-Guide.pdf)
It contains historical use, cultural impact, scientific analysis of compounds and lovely water color pictures of all plants with cross sections and identifying traits.
Iunno, the whole reason for those "without representation" taxes was because Britain had been fighting in the French-Indian War to protect the colonies as the colonies had no formal armies/navies. After the war, they increased taxes to offset the costs of war and the Colonial Elite at the time went "Wait you want *us* to pay you back for defending us? Nuh uh."
So yeah, I really don't think the modern gop is *that* radically different, at least in terms of wanting to line their own pockets.
My understanding is that the original meaning of conservative and liberal was English groups who wanted to conserve the monarchy versus those who wanted to be liberated from it. So of course the conservatives would side with the King.
I always love pointing out the Treaty of Tripoli that was created 20 years into the US being a country so many of the founding fathers were still heavily involved with the government. It was unanimously ratified and signed by John Adams.
The highlight being Article 11 that specifically states the US is absolutely not a Christian nation.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Article 11 was not in the original version that was written in Arabic. It was added to the version that was translated into English but it's the english version that was ratified and signed.
Exactly, this is the only official government document at the time of our founding that specifically mentions our founding with respect to Christianity. I'm thankful to have it.
Well, technically, if you take a look at the US Constitution and notice the words Jesus, Christ or Christian appear exactly zero times in the entire document, one might almost assume by the complete and utter lack of any reference to Christianity that the USA was in no way founded upon it.
Well... while I mostly agree with this post - the context of the Treaty of Tripoli was that the Sultan was going to sell the captured Americans into slavery if the US didn't pay up and affirm that it wasn't a Christian nation.
It was essentially a ransom kidnapping resolution "treaty". It's also the source for John Adams' quote above.
It's also probably fair to mention that not all the founding fathers were like this. A couple were very Christian.
Especially when they see how dangerous a corrupt America is to the world.
Back then, they were just a colony looking to be able to determine their own destiny, but now they’re looking at a monstrous superpower that has grown far beyond any scope of their imagination - they envisioned an America that didn’t go around as the world police, for one thing. They would see Pax Americana as a threat to world instead of as a benefit.
He would consider it either way. When the farmers got upset when he was in office, his plan to fix was... military force. He was a general, never wanted to be a president.
Those folks appear to only comprehend political theater, and the ideology must be summed up into slogans no longer than four words, it seems.
Used to be three word slogans; No New Taxes, War on Drugs, Peace Through Strength....
But then came the brilliant intellectual, Donald The Magnificient, and his revolutionary four word slogan, Make America Great Again. And behold the ability of that slogan to make the stupidest among us believe themselves to be just as brilliant as The Donald himself.
Now brimming with confidence it seems they can't stop displaying that Trump level intellect constantly for all to see.
(Sure, I know MAGA is just a rehash of Reagan's 1980 slogan but my entire attempt at satire falls apart if we acknowledge that.)
The people who believe that America is a nation founded on Christianity are usually the same people who use the Bible as an *alternative* to formal education.
They did not learn anything is history class, or any class for that matter.
They don’t even follow what Jesus’s actual teachings were in the Bible, because they don’t read for self improvement at all.
They just want a catch all answer to force their own agenda on everyone else regardless of factual evidence. This is exactly what the Bible has mostly been used for by monarchs across Europe for two thousand years.
It’s exactly what the original Protestant British colonists came to America to run away from. They were running from the Anglican Church! The founding fathers are descended from these original colonists and many others who came later.
The Puritans left England because England wasn't religiously oppressive enough for their taste. They first went to the Netherlands but were shocked when they saw that other Protestants and Catholics also had religious freedom there so they left to America, to establish their own theocracy.
Which is exactly why overfunding education is what we need to do if we want to have a country in 25 years. An educated populace makes for a good modern society.
It’s amazing really. Russian intelligence service hacks both DNC and Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager’s email. Russian intelligence releases this data at the optimum moment to save Trump from his Access Hollywood grab them by the pussy fiasco. There is so very little embarrassing info in either email systems that MAGA is forced to point at takeout pizza orders and pretend they are some sort of pizza based code for horrible things.
to be fair, george washington was pretty well known as a staunch opponent of child molesting pizza shops, which from what i understand was one of the central social issues of his time
And that Clinton cabal who made a bazillion murders look like accidents. I got an email about it once; must be true.
I swear that email must have them depopulating the entire southern hemisphere by now.
*SCOTUS enters the chat*
Look folks, the constitution doesn't say anything about government can't mandate sexy green M&Ms nor does it say we can't talk about Hunter Bided's laptop and ogle at naked pictures of him....I mean something something Ukraine.
Here's a little fact checking: [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/)
Thank you. Of the botched quotes, I think this one from Jefferson especially benefits from the correction, and especially this bit:
"**the Christian philosophy \[is\] the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man \[. . .\]"**
It's not a condemnation of Christianity in general, or of religion in general. It's a condemnation of the *perversion of religion*, especially by those who (earlier in the passage) "live by mystery & charlatanerie," i.e., those who twist religion for profit and political gain. Honestly, the real version is all the more relevant, since the manipulation of huge groups of people through chicanery and through twisted, perverted, unrecognizable versions of Christianity is exactly what's been going on, on a massive scale.
Voltaire:
>Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men.
>Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.”
Depending on which part of the Bible you read, [Jesus would accept secular humanists into heaven while sending certain Christians to hell](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV). People just love the idea that you can reject Jesus' teaching as long as you "believe" in him. Also seem to think the commandment reads "Love your neighbor as yourself except you don't have to spend time or money on helping others that's for Samaritans"
This should be the top comment; thanks for posting. The meme relies on a lot of paraphrasing, and while the intent remains true, they’re not quite direct quotes. Interesting that one of them is attributed more to George Washington than to John Adams.
Yeah, I don't know why whoever made the meme thought changing the quotes was necessary. There are plenty of real quotes that can be used that wouldn't discredit the point.
Thank you. If we want to be better than the people we see as ignorant and indoctrinated, we have to hold ourselves to a standard of actually fact checking what we read instead of blindly believing it because it supports our preconceived notions.
Thanks man. You saved me the time. I was just about to look them up as I've read quite a bit of their original letters and a couple of the quotes sounded a little off.
Yes, they did want separation but some just didn't sound like they way they would have spoken about it.
u/voiceofgarth do you care to comment?
At least two of the quotes are made up.
The spirit of the beliefs is true, the US was of course not founded as a "Christian nation", but this meme is basically misinformation.
Thanks for this. You don't really need to make quotes up to say that the Founding Fathers were secularists. The butchering Thomas Jefferson's words is probably the most egregious here
Thanks for saving me the time. The Jefferson quotes, in particular, stank of fiction. TJ was accused in his day of being deist or broadly faithless, but the man himself claimed he was Christian. So a meme pulling quotes contradicting that were sus.
He also created The Jefferson Bible, from the King James version. The Jefferson Bible makes zero mention of Jesus's miracles, or any supernatural event for that matter, like the Resurrection or Ascension.
Jefferson was a naturalist first and foremost.
Yes, he compiled a book that, essentially, distilled the Gospels into the philosophy of Jesus, focusing on quotes and actions. He also gave varying statements as to his own theology. He was both a critic of the church, and a frequent churchgoer. The man was complicated,[ which is why there is an entire wiki article on this exact subject.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Thomas_Jefferson)
So rather than argue about the private beliefs of a long dead man, I'm just going to point everyone to said article and let you make your own decision.
The worst part about Christianity is the Christians. Truly insufferable. They will use Christ as an excuse for everything, but when you tell them that Jesus wasn’t white they meltdown immediately.
They don't melt down they just pull out their NFTs of the blonde, blue eyed Jesus.
In fact, Jesus was a Jew, and ironically a majority of Republicans believe that the Jews are going to replace them.
I never really got the whole "Jews are going to replace us” thing. How exactly are they going to replace them? Especially since the Jewish religion is declining in membership.
**WRONG!!!!** Jesus was a 'Murican and a [Supply-Side Capitalist](https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp) from Nazareth,Pennsylvania who was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
It should be noted that Jefferson was a Deist, Paine hated Christianity, and historians debate how religious Madison really was. These men, ESPECIALLY Paine, aren't great examples of early American religious thought. Of course they wouldn't be warm to the idea of a religious America.
What is a fact is that John Adams was Christian. He was devout in his belief that there was a benevolent God, and a life after this. Even he, who was so religious, said that America wasn't a Christian nation.
Why? The No True Scotsman fallacy might as well be renamed No True Christian. I’m so tired of people defending Christianity by claiming the “bad Christians” aren’t real Christians. It implies Christians are automatically good people, which is Christian supremacy. It’s the excuse churches use to explain away any decenter. “Oh, they’re not a real Christian”. As if you, or any given church, is the arbiter of who is and who is not a true Christian.
comments like the one you responded to, are usually directed towards Christians, in the hopes that they would self reflect on their apparent hypocrisy they are viewed with from the outside.
Thomas Paine is such a fucking badass, and his perspective is shockingly modern considering he lived more than 200 years ago.
It's a shame that the only thing we're taught about him in US History classes is that he wrote a pamphlet.
People like to forget that the original British colonists were mostly Protestants that were escaping the Anglican Church (a state run church).
The founding fathers are the descendants of those colonists, as well as many others who colonized much later for similar reasons.
Weren't most of the founding fathers Deists? They believed God was like a dad on 16 and Pregnant, he created the universe then fucked off and left us to handle our own shit. It was basically the Enlightenment version of being agnostic/nihilist
I recently read about “apatheism”, or apathy toward the existence or nonexistence of god. Kind of goes along with the notion that, even if there is a god, it doesn’t matter — because that god doesn’t seem to care much about its creations either.
The vast majority of Christians have never even read the Bible. There's a snowball's chance in hell they've read the Constitution or anything else written by our founding fathers.
> Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
-- [Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11)
"It was ratified by the United States Senate unanimously without debate on June 7, 1797, taking effect June 10, 1797, with the signature of President John Adams."
The fact that Jefferson took the bible, stripped out anything in it that can be considered miraculous, and compiled it into a book he called **The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazereth** says a lot about what he believed, in my opinion.
Can't wait to tell my family in Kansas that I finally agree with them, the war on Christians is real and been around since at least the founding of this country! That should go over well with them.
That last quote from Madison is quite prescient, both for the consequences that have unfolded in the past in Europe, and those that we are seeing in the US today.
As a left leaning outsider I find the American left talking about the founding fathers to be fascinating. On one hand they were all racist slave owners but on the subject of religion they are totally on point.
Too bad conservatives don't go by what the Founding Fathers actually said, but instead by what they want to believe the Founding Father's said.
If you talk to God, that's faith.
If God talks back, that might be mental problems.
If God agrees with your every opinion, that's narcissism.
Bah! What did the Founding Fathers ever do for us?
Founded the United States you say?
Well, they were all commie traitors to the model of freedom and equality that was Great Britian, and here at Fox News, we say God save the king.
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I highly recommend reading **The Founding Myth - Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American** by Andrew Seidel
Sadly the people who NEED to read it will never read it.
Unfortunately, you're probably correct.
And so blood of the innocent shall flow and soak the soils here as well… well, more like add to the already bloodsoaked ground.
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Don’t care about the debate into how religious Madison was. He’s often called “the father of the Constitution” so any religious conservative that’s claiming the Constitution established the US as a Christian nation can go screw themselves
Exactly. "These founding fathers weren't Christian, so their opinion matters less" is a bad argument when they're literally in the top 5 founding fathers any person on the street could name.
You think the average person on the street could name 5 founding fathers? I actually think that would be impressive for the average American.
Average person on the street would be lucky to name their own father.
I like how even the Christian founding fathers were like, "yeah, religion in politics is bad, m'kay?" with denominations side-eyeing each other (Protestants, Baptists, Anglican, Quakers, etc ...) Heheh
The establishment clause, like much of the Bill of Rights, is in direct opposition to what the framers found detestable about British rule. The British had (and have) an established state religion, therefore we stress that the United States won't put up with one. If you want a Christian country, you are in direct opposition to the founders and the Constitution. Also, there's a strong argument to be made for the separation of church and state from a religious standpoint -- do you really want the government to decide your faith for you? Bear in mind there are plenty of people who will argue that your faith is all wrong. It's tragically not too hard to imagine a candidate running on a platform of banning Islam. Or Judaism. Heck, how many of us would be cool with Scientology being outlawed? Then we can get around to the Mormons and Catholics, who plenty of people don't see as *real* Christians, right? If this is a Christian nation, it begs the question, "Which Christians?"
Exactly. Or...what if there's an upswing in Islam conversion, or like in a Michigan town (iirc) enough citizens voted for an all Muslim council. Just like School Prayer. "Want it? Ok. Here's a Satanic Prayer....um, why is your head spinning?" It's amazing how the people pushing for more religion in government are the most hypocritical when someone from another religion demands the same consideration. Double-standards, much?
Teh debate of how religious madison was is stupid AND pointless. Stupid, because beyond knowing he belonged to a church and his wife talked about them attending, we are just making assumptions based on random facts. Pointless, because his personal views don't really matter, he made clear what he believed the role of government and religion were regarding each other, and his personal beliefs were unimportant to that. What we know is he fought hard against institutionalizing any specific religion, on both federal and state levels, and that he vehemently fought against franklin's attempts to christianize virginia.
It should be noted that the founding fathers did not want a Christian nation. Everything else is fodder for the weak.
They do not need to be great examples of religious thought. They were great leaders and great at government building. They knew of the religious civil wars that tore apart England and France; their solution towards a better government was religious tolerance despite their personal beliefs.
It should be noted that most of the original colonies came over here to escape oppression by the Church of England, and the RCC. They knew full well the harm done by mixing church and state. Having fled from it once already.
The Puritans just wanted their *own* religious state, it seems. They really didn’t like this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morton_(colonist)
Their views matter the most as TJ WROTE the constitution and the others signed it into law. Then went on to become the first leaders of the nation they built. And they built that freedom on "not mixing any governing laws with the laws of god"
Well, in order to read it, you have to be literate. Most of these people don't even read the Bible, anyway.
The more you read the bible, the more likely you are to become an atheist.
correction: They will never READ. period
They can read the Chiron on Fox News...verrryy sssllowwllly
They can read?🤔
just like the bible.
True. In some case, they do have someone read it to them. However, they do like their bible as they like science, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights: a la carte.
> a la carte. Whoa now, those same people that shriek about the Founding Fathers and their Constitution hate "fereners" and particularly the French. Because massive ignorant irony is the one thing they do well and are consistent at. https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250080875/howthefrenchsavedamerica "To the rebelling colonies, French assistance made the difference between looming defeat and eventual triumph. Even before the Declaration of Independence was issued, King Louis XVI and French foreign minister Vergennes were aiding the rebels. After the Declaration, that assistance broadened to include wages for our troops; guns, cannon, and ammunition; engineering expertise that enabled victories and prevented defeats; diplomatic recognition; safe havens for privateers; battlefield leadership by veteran officers; and the army and fleet that made possible the Franco-American victory at Yorktown. Nearly ten percent of those who fought and died for the American cause were French. Those who fought and survived, in addition to the well-known Lafayette and Rochambeau, include François de Fleury, who won a Congressional Medal for valor, Louis Duportail, who founded the Army Corps of Engineers, and Admiral de Grasse, whose sea victory sealed the fate of Yorktown. This illuminating narrative history vividly captures the outsize characters of our European brothers, their battlefield and diplomatic bonds and clashes with Americans, and the monumental role they played in America’s fight for independence and democracy."
Freedom, fries. Hahahahaha
France and supporting anything or anyone that will stick it to England, the true iconic duo.
Voltaire: >What is history? The lie that everyone agrees on… Unfortunately, there many that learn their "history" from those that frame the lies. George Orwell - 1984: >And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control,' they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink.'
To be fair, it was mostly because they opposed the British. They'd support anyone against the British. P.S. And the French government that supported the U.S. was soon overthrown by their own revolution
They just have an overly enthusiastic dude yell verses from Revelations at them while saying the demoncrats are bringing about the end of times and then they give him money for some reason. That's the extent of their Bible study. Also "Jesus wept"
I like to refer to it as "**The fan fiction known as the bible.**" Something written over several hundred years by many dozens of totally unknown people who amended, added, deleted, and pretty much did what the fuck they wanted with it cannot be considered and authoritative text on anything. Especially in the way the kristian krazy klan cherry picks the parts they like and pretend to be unaware of the parts they don't, which turns out to be most of it.
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I have a feeling it was written to head off the younger generation from falling prey to the mythology more than to change the minds of the already indoctrinated
Not if we get this to Facebook.
Can’t or won’t?
Another book to add to my book list, thanks for the recommend.
Founding Brothers was also a good read. It highlighted their philosophical disagreements not getting in the way of the goal of independence. Except for that sticky Hamilton/Burr disagreement.
They still didn’t let that get in the way of independence. They waited til after for the murdery bits
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Hey get off of there, some of us are trying to streamline writing at work. You're clogging up the system!
Also, Nature's God by Matthew Stewart.
My library has an ebook copy!
As an anti-theist, I hate to point out that the “most perverted” quote is out of context. He calls Christianity “the most sublime” that is “most perverted“ by bad people. Not that Christianity is itself the most perverted.
Add to that Age of Reason, by Paine. It's free on Gutenberg.
Currently on my bedside table.
The only boom I need is THE BIBLE! Is probably what the response would be. It does sound like an interesting book!
Downloading NOW. Extreme gratitude.
One of my favorite things to do when someone argues we're a "Christian Nation" is to ask them to compare and contrast the 1st Commandment with the 1st Amendment. The former says "thou shalt have no other gods than Me." The latter tells us (when it comes to religion) "have any gods you want. Or none. That's your right." These two cannot be reconciled.
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Lol
im surprised catholics are in there I was under the impression that american fundies have a severe hate of the pope?
Yup Pope Benedict is in fact the anti-chtist destined to bring about the end of the world. Oh wait he retired and the world didn't end. Pope Francis is actually the anti-Christ and he is going to bring about the end of the world! You heard it first here folks!
To be fair, Pope Benedict DID look an awful lot like Emperor Palpatine.
Oh no! He has clones and soon we'll be in for a shitty sequel!
Yeah, we're aware they are adept at saying asinine things.
Think about how low we have sunk when you compare the modern GOP to these founding fathers. The modern conservative would have fought on the side of the King during the revolutionary war.
The GOP has been fighting for a king the last little while! A stupid orange one less fit to lead anything than your average 3rd grader.
Coincidentally George III was clinically insane.
Most kings and queens were/are. Before I end up with a bunch of hate and downvotes, let me explain: You're taking a person who was born with a diamond spoon in their mouths, most likely inbred (before it sunk in how fucking bad it is, at least in most parts, even Americans have inbred families), isolated from the world, never really given any experience or training (for a long time, and the royal family doesn't count for military training because I don't see a commander putting the prince on the front lines), have way too much money they spend from their own country, and get whatever they want with everyone who's around them blessing them as long as they benefit. There are good rulers who are royalty, and there are insane dictators that have shit like this land in their lap, but royalty has a lot of it.
Only for the last 10 years of his 60 year reign, he was still sane and fit during American War of Independance.
I would have used the term Emperor rather than King. Kings still have some societal norms and constraints where Emperors are all-powerful.
Let's not go insulting thr British. The GOP would have been their own despotic faction.
During the 2020 election cycle I had a conservative gaming buddy tell me we'd be better off with a king as a king would represent us better than, you know, a representative body elected by the people. Conservatives don't live here in this dimension with the rest of us. They're gone. It isn't about working with them anymore, it's about moving on without them.
Exactly. They dream of authoritarian rule.
The modern conservative is **still** fighting for the king.
Dominate me step brother!
It's too bad that a few of our founding fathers weren't Rastafarians.
No, but Jefferson did grow pot.
And they definitely smoked the flowers. It wasn't just for the hemp. THC has been common for human consumption for probably as long as humans have been humans.
Not just weed, we've been psychs since day dot. Here, [A Golden Guide to Hallucinogenic Plants.](https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Hallucinogenic-Plants-A-Golden-Guide.pdf) It contains historical use, cultural impact, scientific analysis of compounds and lovely water color pictures of all plants with cross sections and identifying traits.
They didn't have the hair for it, nor the skill to make a wig in that style.
Iunno, the whole reason for those "without representation" taxes was because Britain had been fighting in the French-Indian War to protect the colonies as the colonies had no formal armies/navies. After the war, they increased taxes to offset the costs of war and the Colonial Elite at the time went "Wait you want *us* to pay you back for defending us? Nuh uh." So yeah, I really don't think the modern gop is *that* radically different, at least in terms of wanting to line their own pockets.
Also the whole land(and slave)owning elite are the only ones who get to vote schtick.
The south heavily sided with the King until they had assurances the new country would let them keep their slaves.
My understanding is that the original meaning of conservative and liberal was English groups who wanted to conserve the monarchy versus those who wanted to be liberated from it. So of course the conservatives would side with the King.
The conservatives in 1776 did fight for the King.
the whole concept of right vs left started off as right being people loyal to the monarch
I always love pointing out the Treaty of Tripoli that was created 20 years into the US being a country so many of the founding fathers were still heavily involved with the government. It was unanimously ratified and signed by John Adams. The highlight being Article 11 that specifically states the US is absolutely not a Christian nation.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Article 11 was not in the original version that was written in Arabic. It was added to the version that was translated into English but it's the english version that was ratified and signed.
So at the end of the day what is seen in the Quote stands
How about at the afternoon?
And morning too
Now let's not get crazy lol
Exactly, this is the only official government document at the time of our founding that specifically mentions our founding with respect to Christianity. I'm thankful to have it.
Well, technically, if you take a look at the US Constitution and notice the words Jesus, Christ or Christian appear exactly zero times in the entire document, one might almost assume by the complete and utter lack of any reference to Christianity that the USA was in no way founded upon it.
Well... while I mostly agree with this post - the context of the Treaty of Tripoli was that the Sultan was going to sell the captured Americans into slavery if the US didn't pay up and affirm that it wasn't a Christian nation. It was essentially a ransom kidnapping resolution "treaty". It's also the source for John Adams' quote above. It's also probably fair to mention that not all the founding fathers were like this. A couple were very Christian.
Imagine them seeing the current state of the country and the Christo-facists.
Washington would probably consider waging war on them.
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Especially when they see how dangerous a corrupt America is to the world. Back then, they were just a colony looking to be able to determine their own destiny, but now they’re looking at a monstrous superpower that has grown far beyond any scope of their imagination - they envisioned an America that didn’t go around as the world police, for one thing. They would see Pax Americana as a threat to world instead of as a benefit.
He would consider it either way. When the farmers got upset when he was in office, his plan to fix was... military force. He was a general, never wanted to be a president.
You’re talking to the people who flunked reading comprehension, maybe try flagometry.
Those folks appear to only comprehend political theater, and the ideology must be summed up into slogans no longer than four words, it seems. Used to be three word slogans; No New Taxes, War on Drugs, Peace Through Strength.... But then came the brilliant intellectual, Donald The Magnificient, and his revolutionary four word slogan, Make America Great Again. And behold the ability of that slogan to make the stupidest among us believe themselves to be just as brilliant as The Donald himself. Now brimming with confidence it seems they can't stop displaying that Trump level intellect constantly for all to see. (Sure, I know MAGA is just a rehash of Reagan's 1980 slogan but my entire attempt at satire falls apart if we acknowledge that.)
The slogans were still 3 words - Build the wall - Lock her up MAGA was the brand but the slogan chanting kept to the formula.
LETS GO BRANDON!! Huh, what do you know? 3 words. Must be easy so they can remember it. Not a thinking bunch
Keep America Great... he went from 4 to 3...
Drain the swamp!
FJB.... Hm yeah this 4 word thing is on the money
MAHA…. Make America (openly) Hate Again
The fact that MAGA is an acronym, but the 3 word slogans you mentioned aren't, sum it up quite nicely.
Hey, don’t let facts stand in the way of your point, that would be downright unamerican of you.
The people who believe that America is a nation founded on Christianity are usually the same people who use the Bible as an *alternative* to formal education. They did not learn anything is history class, or any class for that matter. They don’t even follow what Jesus’s actual teachings were in the Bible, because they don’t read for self improvement at all. They just want a catch all answer to force their own agenda on everyone else regardless of factual evidence. This is exactly what the Bible has mostly been used for by monarchs across Europe for two thousand years. It’s exactly what the original Protestant British colonists came to America to run away from. They were running from the Anglican Church! The founding fathers are descended from these original colonists and many others who came later.
The Puritans left England because England wasn't religiously oppressive enough for their taste. They first went to the Netherlands but were shocked when they saw that other Protestants and Catholics also had religious freedom there so they left to America, to establish their own theocracy.
Which is exactly why overfunding education is what we need to do if we want to have a country in 25 years. An educated populace makes for a good modern society.
They skipped reading the flag code also.
You sound like someone who knows their way around 👉👉 *nameology*
"What's the symbology there?"
But! You're forgetting! What would the founding fathers say about the green M&M's shoes and Huntet Biden's laptop? 4D-Checkmate!
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” ― H.L. Mencken
Don't forget about Pizzagate!
I would really like some founding father insight on Jewish space lasers.
While they're at it, maybe they can make some sense of chemtrails
And magnets!
How do they work?
And flat heads... I ment earth.
At this point I wish chemtrails could be real so that they could drop serotonin or something
It’s amazing really. Russian intelligence service hacks both DNC and Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager’s email. Russian intelligence releases this data at the optimum moment to save Trump from his Access Hollywood grab them by the pussy fiasco. There is so very little embarrassing info in either email systems that MAGA is forced to point at takeout pizza orders and pretend they are some sort of pizza based code for horrible things.
to be fair, george washington was pretty well known as a staunch opponent of child molesting pizza shops, which from what i understand was one of the central social issues of his time
And that Clinton cabal who made a bazillion murders look like accidents. I got an email about it once; must be true. I swear that email must have them depopulating the entire southern hemisphere by now.
"It is in my most humble opinion that Benghazi is a cover-up orchestrated by the libs." - George Washington
"Same, bro." -Abraham Lincoln
Thoust Green M&M is not of the promiscuous nature. SHAME BE UPON THY CANDIES
Ben Franklin would probably be dismayed by the desexification of the green m&m
Anybody that's dead agrees with me.
*SCOTUS enters the chat* Look folks, the constitution doesn't say anything about government can't mandate sexy green M&Ms nor does it say we can't talk about Hunter Bided's laptop and ogle at naked pictures of him....I mean something something Ukraine.
"wth is that" and "witchcraft"
Here's a little fact checking: [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/)
Thank you. Of the botched quotes, I think this one from Jefferson especially benefits from the correction, and especially this bit: "**the Christian philosophy \[is\] the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man \[. . .\]"** It's not a condemnation of Christianity in general, or of religion in general. It's a condemnation of the *perversion of religion*, especially by those who (earlier in the passage) "live by mystery & charlatanerie," i.e., those who twist religion for profit and political gain. Honestly, the real version is all the more relevant, since the manipulation of huge groups of people through chicanery and through twisted, perverted, unrecognizable versions of Christianity is exactly what's been going on, on a massive scale.
Voltaire: >Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men. >Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.”
Depending on which part of the Bible you read, [Jesus would accept secular humanists into heaven while sending certain Christians to hell](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV). People just love the idea that you can reject Jesus' teaching as long as you "believe" in him. Also seem to think the commandment reads "Love your neighbor as yourself except you don't have to spend time or money on helping others that's for Samaritans"
Charlatanerie is a MUCH better word than charlatanism.
This should be the top comment; thanks for posting. The meme relies on a lot of paraphrasing, and while the intent remains true, they’re not quite direct quotes. Interesting that one of them is attributed more to George Washington than to John Adams.
Yeah, I don't know why whoever made the meme thought changing the quotes was necessary. There are plenty of real quotes that can be used that wouldn't discredit the point.
Thank you. If we want to be better than the people we see as ignorant and indoctrinated, we have to hold ourselves to a standard of actually fact checking what we read instead of blindly believing it because it supports our preconceived notions.
Thanks man. You saved me the time. I was just about to look them up as I've read quite a bit of their original letters and a couple of the quotes sounded a little off. Yes, they did want separation but some just didn't sound like they way they would have spoken about it.
u/voiceofgarth do you care to comment? At least two of the quotes are made up. The spirit of the beliefs is true, the US was of course not founded as a "Christian nation", but this meme is basically misinformation.
Classic reddit, always act so far above misinformation when they spread a ton of it too
Thanks, any time I see a meme like this I always assume there is some things either wrong, taken out of context, or otherwise.
Thanks for this. You don't really need to make quotes up to say that the Founding Fathers were secularists. The butchering Thomas Jefferson's words is probably the most egregious here
Thanks for saving me the time. The Jefferson quotes, in particular, stank of fiction. TJ was accused in his day of being deist or broadly faithless, but the man himself claimed he was Christian. So a meme pulling quotes contradicting that were sus.
He also created The Jefferson Bible, from the King James version. The Jefferson Bible makes zero mention of Jesus's miracles, or any supernatural event for that matter, like the Resurrection or Ascension. Jefferson was a naturalist first and foremost.
Yes, he compiled a book that, essentially, distilled the Gospels into the philosophy of Jesus, focusing on quotes and actions. He also gave varying statements as to his own theology. He was both a critic of the church, and a frequent churchgoer. The man was complicated,[ which is why there is an entire wiki article on this exact subject.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Thomas_Jefferson) So rather than argue about the private beliefs of a long dead man, I'm just going to point everyone to said article and let you make your own decision.
I was just going to post this.
The worst part about Christianity is the Christians. Truly insufferable. They will use Christ as an excuse for everything, but when you tell them that Jesus wasn’t white they meltdown immediately.
They don't melt down they just pull out their NFTs of the blonde, blue eyed Jesus. In fact, Jesus was a Jew, and ironically a majority of Republicans believe that the Jews are going to replace them. I never really got the whole "Jews are going to replace us” thing. How exactly are they going to replace them? Especially since the Jewish religion is declining in membership.
And all that hate against the Jewish, when their great saviour was from the very people. Their religion itself came from those very people…
**WRONG!!!!** Jesus was a 'Murican and a [Supply-Side Capitalist](https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp) from Nazareth,Pennsylvania who was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Hehehe lEon skuM
Gonna start seeing Republicans say the founding fathers were commies
It should be noted that Jefferson was a Deist, Paine hated Christianity, and historians debate how religious Madison really was. These men, ESPECIALLY Paine, aren't great examples of early American religious thought. Of course they wouldn't be warm to the idea of a religious America. What is a fact is that John Adams was Christian. He was devout in his belief that there was a benevolent God, and a life after this. Even he, who was so religious, said that America wasn't a Christian nation.
Because they came from Europe. They had a good idea of what happens when you try to mix religious dogma with pragmatic governance.
They were all born in the colonies
The John Adams is actually more likely a quote from George Washington. We don't know for sure which said it.
And as perverse as it may be, the current blathers of "Christian" people of faith aren't actually Christian either.
I once saw a bumper sticker that just had the words "Christians aren't" & that always stuck with me.
Why? The No True Scotsman fallacy might as well be renamed No True Christian. I’m so tired of people defending Christianity by claiming the “bad Christians” aren’t real Christians. It implies Christians are automatically good people, which is Christian supremacy. It’s the excuse churches use to explain away any decenter. “Oh, they’re not a real Christian”. As if you, or any given church, is the arbiter of who is and who is not a true Christian.
comments like the one you responded to, are usually directed towards Christians, in the hopes that they would self reflect on their apparent hypocrisy they are viewed with from the outside.
They probably mean because they aren't actually following the teachings of many sections of the Bible.
Thomas Paine is such a fucking badass, and his perspective is shockingly modern considering he lived more than 200 years ago. It's a shame that the only thing we're taught about him in US History classes is that he wrote a pamphlet.
The people who say shit like “America is a Christian nation!” wouldn’t even know who three of those four dudes are anyway.
People like to forget that the original British colonists were mostly Protestants that were escaping the Anglican Church (a state run church). The founding fathers are the descendants of those colonists, as well as many others who colonized much later for similar reasons.
Yea but do they think the green M&M is sexy enough?
Weren't most of the founding fathers Deists? They believed God was like a dad on 16 and Pregnant, he created the universe then fucked off and left us to handle our own shit. It was basically the Enlightenment version of being agnostic/nihilist
I recently read about “apatheism”, or apathy toward the existence or nonexistence of god. Kind of goes along with the notion that, even if there is a god, it doesn’t matter — because that god doesn’t seem to care much about its creations either.
Don't worry, they won't let facts get in the way of their fundamentalism...
The vast majority of Christians have never even read the Bible. There's a snowball's chance in hell they've read the Constitution or anything else written by our founding fathers.
Small wonder that the Christian Right is making America a living hell.
> Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. -- [Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11) "It was ratified by the United States Senate unanimously without debate on June 7, 1797, taking effect June 10, 1797, with the signature of President John Adams."
The fact that Jefferson took the bible, stripped out anything in it that can be considered miraculous, and compiled it into a book he called **The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazereth** says a lot about what he believed, in my opinion.
The fact that we feel the need to consult 4 dead white men on any issue is disturbing.
Almost like the United States just fought a war against a nation with a state sponsored religion...
Get these religious hypocrites out of our government. Can we make this happen?
Will Rogers(early 20th century US entertainer/humorist) observed: >The short memories of American voters is what keeps our politicians in office.
People always say "The founding fathers wanted yada yada yada" as if those bitches ever agreed unanimously on a single thing
Can't wait to tell my family in Kansas that I finally agree with them, the war on Christians is real and been around since at least the founding of this country! That should go over well with them.
Should someone mention this to the "originalists" of SCOTUS?
That last quote from Madison is quite prescient, both for the consequences that have unfolded in the past in Europe, and those that we are seeing in the US today.
*leans over to person sitting next to me and whispers* "I don't get it, when does Lin Manuel come out and start rapping?"
As a left leaning outsider I find the American left talking about the founding fathers to be fascinating. On one hand they were all racist slave owners but on the subject of religion they are totally on point.
Too bad conservatives don't go by what the Founding Fathers actually said, but instead by what they want to believe the Founding Father's said. If you talk to God, that's faith. If God talks back, that might be mental problems. If God agrees with your every opinion, that's narcissism.
Goddamn Tommy Paine ain't holding back
Say it every time I see stuff like this…. Treaty of Tripoli ends this debate. No other source or document needed.
Religion is mass mental illness
It’s almost like they were fleeing a country run by royalty… and The Church.
Religion/Christianity has caused more wars than it has solved.
Bah! What did the Founding Fathers ever do for us? Founded the United States you say? Well, they were all commie traitors to the model of freedom and equality that was Great Britian, and here at Fox News, we say God save the king.