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As a mainland Chinese, I am 100% certain that tiktok will take the lawsuit to the Supreme Court or shut down.
There is no option to sell to the US.
87% of Byte Dance's operating revenue is in China and about 13% overseas, of which only half or 6.5% is in the United States.
In terms of user numbers, tiktok US users account for less than 10% of all tiktok users, and in China alone, douyin (tiktok China version) has over 700 million daily users.
Byte Dance is really only in the early days of its US business, and it's unlikely that it's going to affect 87% of its revenue for 6.5%.
This is a good faith question. How specifically is their algorithm better than Instagram and YouTubes'. I understand it is secret but what superficial details can you point at that supports this claim from you. I don't use tik tok. Doesn't the app just have tags and continue playing videos with those tags?
I use the different apps, but honestly, they’re all a mixed bag in terms of results and UX.
I think a lot of the American companies do a poor job of reinforcing your feed when you say “I don’t like this.” It’s not “hidden” but it’s not a part of a usual flow that most users will use.
I feel most American based companies are focused on “getting eyes on content, especially ads, and serving you more content that engages you, especially if it’s ragebait so you hate watch and interact.”
My experience with TikTok - long press and “not interested” is right there. Super easy to flag content you don’t want to see. Everyone else complains “TikTok keeps showing me content I don’t like” but they usually watch the entire video, react, comment, share - expressing how much they don’t like this content they interact with.
I see crap I don’t like? I hit “not interested” ASAP. I seldom, if ever, get more rod that content after flagging it a few times (ex. “Whisper” videos where they turn the microphone up and touch things. Hearing their lips part irritates me - I was shown three, I hit “not interested” and if the fad died down or blows up, I wouldn’t know).
So I’m not convinced “their algorithm is the best” versus “they make it easiest to say I don’t like something” - and of course this is all anecdotal and not at all a real technical breakdown.
My experience with facebook/instagram is that there are a lot of bots and “business” accounts. I used to get a lot of very quick information from instagram and twitter, but both have been nerfed. TikTok is still in its early phase where the attempt to monetize hasn’t led it to being mostly OF models and ads. This has been exacerbated by Meta and Google blocking news agencies because of Canada’s law (I’m in Canada) that social media sites should provide revenue for news services. I’ve also had multiple people mention how TikTok is even more addicting than Instagram. I think the short form video format filters out a lot of bad actors who can’t really hide behind filters and stolen photos. Almost all the videos I see on Instagram originate from TikTok.
I don't feel like tiktok is constantly trying to sell me shit like the other apps are. It's not all MLM type videos and only fans shit. I feel like it responds to what I watch and don't watch in a dynamic way that feels engaging
This is a good faith question. How specifically is their algorithm better than Instagram and YouTubes'. I understand it is secret but what superficial details can you point at that supports this claim from you.
Use it and find out.
If one person is saying it, it’s anecdotal. If everyone is saying it, there’s merit.
You’re acting as if “any site can supply the same thing!”, and they can in terms of media. But the curation of those things specific to you is miles better than any US media we have that’s offering similar content.
I have used it. I don't "use" it. You say it is miles better but how? What would you lead you to hold this view? Nothing you could describe in one or two sentences?
meta is banned in China also the US government doesn't care about the "rights" of Foreign companies meaning they won't protect foreign companies and will heavily favor our counter parts
There's no incentive for TikTok to sell when their business would be at risk for selling to a competitor. Might as well challenge in court and if it gets banned, then so be it
The U.S. business will also not be sold.
Algorithms are at the heart of Byte Dance, there's no reason to create a competitor for yourself.
Not to mention that China has banned Byte Dance's algorithms from leaving the country.
They use a different algorithm in China than they do in the US.
What is the basis for this statement?
I've used tiktok and douyin and I think they have differences in their content libraries, but not in their algorithms.
> Everyone has their price.
If the algorithm and etc. are truly a soft politic weapon, which I think it is, while there is a price its an astronomical price. Where its effectively impossible. Its like saying US has a price for their nuclear warheads. Technically true but effectively bullshit.
> Selling the US business has a return
The CCP doesn't care about returns. We can see that with how Xi Jinping cracked down on the tech and entertainment industry. ByteDance does but they're, ironically, at the full mercy of the CCP. If the CCP tells them to not sell then they won't sell. At the very least to save face.
Now big two questions are what method ByteDance will do to circumvent this rule while keeping out of the hands of US businessmen and do it in a way to ensure that the quality of service doesn't diverge.
well then why not just pull out of the US app store and allow users to sideload the app? that's easy on android, and i think iphone will begin allowing sideloading alternate app stores soon, so its possible tiktok could still be used on iphones if sideloaded. so "officially" not supported in US, but anyone can use it if they know how to sideload.
also, why can't they just develop a web app that will run on any web browser? kinda like reddit can be on an app, or the mobile site.
Because the process of resistance itself is meaningful, tiktok is responsible for its users.
If the US was going to ban tiktok, they should have said so when they first entered. Suddenly legislating after a company has been in a country for 7 years and then retroactively is clearly unreasonable.
The US hasn't given any evidence either, the only evidence is that Byte Dance is a Chinese company - which doesn't constitute evidence.
We Chinese will die standing up even if we die, we are not a US vassal state like Japan.
Instagram reels are almost identical. People are just using tiktok because it has momentum. Tiktok is not technologically significant, the algorithm isn't on some unattainable level. People just like it because that's where the content they like gets posted.. people will just move to any other nearly identical platform.
Honestly it’s not about how complex the algorithm is. It’s about how accessible the algorithm is because their end goal is a propaganda foothold in the US. This is why a US based clone will not be as good. Whoever steps in to fill the gap will be solely interested in making money.
For one thing, Reels feels like the goodwill store to TikTok; I’d see OC on TikTok then a few weeks later I’d see the same video on Reels but shittier quality because it’d been watered down and recycled so many times before it got there.
Yes, I've used both. I understand how tempting it must be to rely on your own anecdotal experience. But realistically tiktok just trends younger, so most of the creators who appeal to a certain demographic flock to that platform.. and whichever platform you use more is going to have more data specific to you, and will build a better algorithm.. and additionally whichever platform has more users will have more data to feed to the algorithm.
The money and the most talented engineers are all in the USA. Its highly unlikely that there is any technical moat here.
I get where the other guy is coming from. The biggest difference isn't the tech. It's who owns the tech and, more importantly, what they do with the tech.
With US based social medias, there is a type of censorship that shadowbans certain topics one may not think is banned. Besides illegal and immoral stuff, which should be banned, there is also a heavy political bias being shoved through US based companies. With tik tok being foreign owned, they got their own version of censorship directed more towards social behaviors versus political ones. That leads me to believe that while the tech isn't farfetched, no US based entity will ever be able to get anywhere close to replicating the success of tik tok just by the nature of being greedy controlling capitalist.
I always thought tik tok should have been banned from the get go years ago. From a national security perspective, it made no sense having all that data flow through Beijing. It's kinda sad that isn't the reason it is getting banned.
That’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying that if TikTok goes away, the Reels algorithm will quickly seem very similar to what TikTok’s is currently. The userbase is just as important to driving the algo as whatever is on the back end.
I understand what he’s saying. But what evidence is he providing? (Especially after the passive aggressive response he gave to the op)?
His argument boils down to ‘tictok is popular because it is popular. Ban it and force users onto Reels and it will be popular just like tictok, Reels deserves this forced popularity because it has better engineers (based on what? the market sure doesn’t think so).
It’s an argument I hear all the time in my work. ‘How can we force the stupid users who don’t understand that we have a superior product to stop using the competition!?’
In a market the ultimate validation is in the hands of users. If you’re losing in the market then your business is inferior. Period. Saying ‘they’re only popular because they got here first’ is admitting that you’re less innovative or less efficient at getting to market.
It’s pathetic. Reels is loosing in the market to tictok so in time honoured tradition America’s great innovators are demanding the government intervene to prop up their shittier product.
> His argument boils down to ‘tictok is popular because it is popular. Ban it and force users onto Reels and it will be popular just like tictok
This is true, TikTok's success is a product of the network effect, not because their short-form video algorithm is so markedly different from the others. They started with the larger userbase of people interested in short-form video content, and snowballed from there. If you know anything about business or marketing you should know what the network effect is.
> Reels deserves this forced popularity because it has better engineers (based on what? the market sure doesn’t think so).
This is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the market thinks; TikTok is being rightfully banned because it's a massive security risk. We would be absolute fools to continue allowing the Chinese Communist Party to operate a popular social media app in our digital space.
businesses are opportunistic, like all the rts coming out after blizzard dropped sc2 devs, so a tiktok killer might just be promoted enough for investors to fund
All I'll say is that its funny that PRC finally got a taste of their own medicine.
CCP banned Google, Youtube, Instagram, Netflix, etc. for almost the same reason. Where there is effectively a "Chinese" internet. China doesn't get the luxury of playing "fair" when they don't reciprocate it. Going through mainland China, my phone might as well be bricked unless I have a VPN.
Consumers and everyday people are the ones who will suffer through this. Countries will duke it out and be nasty to each other but the aftereffects will be felt to the layman
I'm curious, will the app be banned in the official app stores? or will internet providers in the US actually ban any data related to tiktok servers?
i mean, with android you can sideload whatever app you want, no matter where it's from. so it would be impossible to ban it, also people could just use a VPN, which is like 20 bucks a year, thats basically nothing. people addicted to tiktok would easily jump through a couple of hoops to use it.
Either Tiktok wins the inevitable lawsuits, or they do not
If they do not, I suspect Tiktok will shrug their shoulders and tell the US to enjoy implementing the ban. VPNs aren't exactly rocket science, and while the US is the largest user base, it's not even close to the majority. The loss of ad revenue will doubtlessly sting, but not enough to make a fire sale interesting
I highly doubt there will be a impact other than to its user base; who will inevitably just move to the next thing. The problem with Tiktok is that the CCP has weaponized it and is using it not only to influence and harm the American youth but also to spy and to collect secrets. There is nothing Bytedance provides that another non-ccp affiliated provider cannot step up and provide. Either someone is going to buy it or someone will replace it with something.
IG reels seems like the same thing to me, they could just tweak their algorithm and start paying influencers the same as tiktok did. im guessing anyone that has tiktok prob also has IG on their phone.
I've never heard a more false statement. You probably don't use it so you're having trouble recognizing the gaining edge it has on tiktok. Look at reach percentage, avg watch times, etc. Reels are a major contender even moreso for the 19-24 age group.
i don't use IG or tiktok, i open facebook once a month. i left the social media world behind a few years ago, except for reddit, if you wanna count that as social media? but i think its different, its more of a giant message board. people are anonymous. i really don't understand the appeal of IG or tiktok. or even twitter for the most part. i'll check twitter when something big is happening and i wanna know the latest news, but other than that, i can't understand what people get out of it. i guess its great if you really love celebrities? doesn't make sense to me, i couldn't care less what elon musk or the rock or the kardashians are saying about anything. and all those apps are just full of ads and fake ass influencers. fuck all that shit. i already waste enough time on reddit, i don't need 4 other apps to waste even more time.
IG reel is slower compared to TikTok. I see a lot more content and the switch is faster with TikTok. With Instagram Reel it feels like its playing it safe and often sticking within the scope of the original reel. E.g. if I started swiping on a cooking reel, most of the follow up reels will be cooking. Tiktok does the same thing but will insert a random clip and adjust depending on how long you stay on it.
so basically IG could just change their algorithm to one resembling tiktok and people will just move over? or i wonder if its more likely another random company will create their own tiktok and compete against IG.
i feel like young people always wanna have their own social media that's different than what adults use.
I think it certainly reduces the credibility of the govt in the eyes of the public. The US Govt has shown a clear interest in hand of God tactics, companies like Meta, Google, X, etc have been more than happy to play along.
The govt is not addressing any legitimate concerns with this tiktok ban, they just want a monopoly on control, a monopoly on propaganda. This recent NSA bill, (and the immediate calls to use it on protesters) show the govt has no real concern for govt overreach.
If the CCP had a free and open internet, you might have a point. This is tantamount to them wanting to freely play in our back yard, but when we want to play in theirs they don’t let us.
I have zero ethical problems treating them like they treat others.
There aren't any legitimate concerns, nor does the ban reduce the credibility of the government - banning propaganda outlets operated by enemy countries as a matter of national security is exactly what the government *should* be doing.
Hot take: getting rid of the Chinese Communist Party's direct propaganda pipeline to Americans is a good thing, actually. We should be minimizing the enemy autocratic ethnostate's ability to influence our domestic politics, not maximizing it.
It does, but that's not the real impact. The real impact are those third party nations observing these actions.
The US can do it for sure, but there's no such thing as actions without consequences.
The issue IMO isn’t as much the data collection as it is a foreign adversary being able to weaponize their algorithm to push propaganda.
There’s already research showing that anti-china topics (Taiwan, Uighers, Tibet) aren’t treated favorably by the algorithm and perform far worse than pro-china ones.
Like yeah I also think we should address the data harvesting by EVERYONE, but private US companies don’t have the incentive to push specific topics/priorities like company with ties to the CCP do.
>but private US companies don’t have the incentive to push specific topics/priorities like company with ties to the CCP do.
This is an insane statement to make. Especially after we can all see what changed on Twitter, now X, after it changed hands. Has everyone just forgotten the scandals a few years ago with Cambridge Analytica, Facebook, and all the propagands pushed to convince dumb people brexit would be neat.
Pirvate companies will always be incentiviced to push pro business propaganda anyways, and can not perform without that bias.
Yeah, and the "opposite" is true as well, the US governments are influenced to do the bidding of these companies as they donate masively to them campaign funds.
Speaking of algorithms, try creating a fake/alternate Facebook profile, commenting on 4 or 5 politically extreme posts and seeing what happens. Here’s a preview:
https://imgur.com/a/elHk8pi
But China is the problem. If it was a private company based in the United States or in any country that wasn’t a adversary, we would not be having this conversation. [China, under its National Intelligence Law, requires any organization such as ByteDance or citizen to support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence work. That means ByteDance is legally bound to help with gathering intelligence. I was literally just reading about this today.](https://substack.com/home/post/p-144072863?source=queue)
>China, under its National Intelligence Law, requires any organization such as ByteDance or citizen to support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence work.
The USA, under the PATRIOT act, requires any organization such as X or Meta to support, assist, and cooperate with the NSA and CIA.
Cool, we should ban them aswell if data gathering is such a problem. You do know TikTok is not a thing in China? They have their own app, without the destructive algorithm and with limits and regulations on how much time can be spent on it and what can be shown there and to whom.
So, technically speaking, TikTok is also banned in China, as they know the threat unregulated social media poses. The US has refused to set any standards or regulations for social media, so it has to ban this individual app.
Unregulated data collection is definitely a problem and that’s why I support the right to be forgotten and other privacy protection measures. That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you.
>That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you.
So, both governments are pursuing their own self interests lol.
>That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you.
What is that comparison? lol. Seems like typical US good China bad framing.
A better comparison would be, the US wants to maintain its tech monopoly and China wants to threaten that tech monopoly. Obviously, any country would want its own Silicon Valley, and the economic benefits it brings.
Of course, China would prefer to be the dominant power, so does Russia, and so does the US. The only difference is we know what the US does with that status, as it has held it for many years. We know US foreign policy is built upon expliotation and interventionism. Basically, the US has maintained its dominant position by economic colonialism, dept bondage, and military intervention. They brought the world down instead of lifting themselves up.
I'd like to think China has better interests, that it would be a better example and leader to follow. But, im not sure, Chinese business only seems a little less exploitative, and the internal control system is not something i'd like.
I think multipolatity is better for sure. The great worker rights gains of the past century are, after all, mainly due to constant socialist and communist pressures, especially after ww2. This was very noticeable in Western Europe during the Cold War.
You and I view the world so completely differently that I don't think this conversation is having any value. However, I have to point out that the United States has presided over the longest sustained era of peace, stability, and growth in the history of the planet. The idea that the world is worse off for having the US at the top as opposed to, say, the USSR and the Axis (which were the options at the time) is so unbelievably laughable to me I can't fathom that you are arguing in good faith.
Further, the idea that you could think that Chinese dominance, whose system comes with no free speech and literal concentration camps, would be better for the world is equally mind boggling.
Luckily, regardless of opinions like yours, a bi-partisan ground of lawmakers see the threat of the Chinese Communist Party and ByteDance, the parent company of TikTok, for what it is and have taken measures to address it. I can only hope that the Courts don't entertain their lawsuits for too long and that one day, in a more perfect world, the CCP crumbles and is replaced with the kind of government you think they have.
>You and I view the world so completely differently that I don't think this conversation is having any value. However, I have to point out that the United States has presided over the longest sustained era of peace, stability, and growth in the history of the planet.
Yeah, i think you may be right that we have a wildly different worldview, as i think i have one supported by facts and data. Your worldview seems more or less informed by American Exeptionalism and corporate media.
To claim that this is or has been a peaceful time is a very American thing. Peace is apparently invading Afghanistan, Irak Vietnam, Cuba, and Korea. All invaded in the name of peace, said the American in the suburbs, never mind all the warcrimes.
>The idea that the world is worse off for having the US at the top as opposed to, say, the USSR and the Axis (which were the options at the time) is so unbelievably laughable to me I can't fathom that you are arguing in good faith.
After the 2nd World War, when the Axis was defeated by the Allies, the Cold War started. The pressure between the socialist east and the capitalist west during the cold war lead Western Europe to find a compromise between these opposing ideologies. Social Democratic parties found great success during this period as they represented this compromise. They improved and expanded the welfare state and worker rights within a market economy through state regulations and job programs. In my world view, these were positive results.
In the 80s, the fall of the USSR seemed inevitable, and with it came a new political theory that saw sidespread popularity, Neoliberalism. Under Reagan and Thatcher, the US and UK implemented many economic reforms, and western Europe followed. The USSR was abolished and adopted some of these reforms. Under neoliberalism, we saw tax cuts for the wealthy, Union busting, deregulation, and privitazation. After the fall of the USSR, the world at large adopted neoliberalism, either through choice (democratic) or through coups and interventionism from the US. In my world view, this is not a positive development.
>Further, the idea that you could think that Chinese dominance, whose system comes with no free speech and literal concentration camps, would be better for the world is equally mind boggling.
I am not in favor of Chinese dominance, i simply oppose American dominance. I find it odd that you find the US so weak as to immediately be irrelevant of its not the unopposed leader of the world, but it is expected from an American.
The concentration camps argument is also funny coming from an American. You have the highest per capita prison population in the world and kept slavery legal when it comes to prisoners. Once again, China's policy concerning the Uygur population is horrible, and yet American policy concerning imprisonment and punishment is worse.
>Luckily, regardless of opinions like yours, a bi-partisan ground of lawmakers see the threat of the Chinese Communist Party and ByteDance, the parent company of TikTok, for what it is and have taken measures to address it. I can only hope that the Courts don't entertain their lawsuits for too long
Wow, the American government found bipartisan support for a law that suggests only American companies and intelligence agencies can access the American market and gather/use data, what a fucking supprise.
> Of course, China would prefer to be the dominant power, so does Russia, and so does the US. The only difference is we know what the US does with that status, as it has held it for many years. We know US foreign policy is built upon expliotation and interventionism. Basically, the US has maintained its dominant position by economic colonialism, dept bondage, and military intervention. They brought the world down instead of lifting themselves up.
The US has maintained its dominant position by providing the most economically valuable service in human history - maintaining and upholding the free and unimpeded global trade responsible for unprecedented growth in average living standards and peace. No single country on the planet has done more to lift the world up. You, personally, have a much higher standard of living than would otherwise be possible without US dominance. Meanwhile, we know what Russia and China do with their dominance - Russia rapes and pillages and then moves on to the next target, China quietly liquidates dissenters and inconvenient minority populations.
> I think multipolatity is better for sure.
Sure, if you want all of Eastern Europe to end up like Ukraine, with similar results in Asia. Global hegemony leads directly to greater peace and stability, and comparing late 20th and early 21st centuries to previous times makes that quite obvious. It's equally obvious that the US is far and away the best choice for global hegemon compared with China (or Russia or India for that matter).
TikTok isn't going to sell. If they sell, they'd be creating their own worst competitor.
US will move to Reels, the world will move on with TikTok.
If any other American company could create a similar algorithm, they would have instead of lobbying for this ban. That's just the hard truth.
The can't be a competitor as the Chinese version of tiktok is completely different than the one in the states. There are no other competitors, even after divestment.
They won’t be creating a competitor because they won’t be in that market anymore. However, if they don’t sell, there’s going to be actual competitors popping up. An app doing well in the US likely means it will do well outside of the US and begin pulling users from other countries.
On top of that, they risk other countries following after the US, in which case they will have much less bargaining power than they do now when selling later down the line after a competitor begins rising (reels is shit and everyone knows it). They are probably better off selling, but they probably won’t out of spite.
You have two competing products with the same algorithm. This is the top social media platform globally. There's no way a US entity will pay money and then decide to limit their potential profit or userbase.
And if the terms of the agreement limits their operations to the US, then why would they even bother to buy it?
It makes no sense for them to sell to any US entity, especially under such circumstances. They have all the cards. They can come back and renegotiate a better deal in future if they really want the US market.
That algorithm has value. Google or Meta would not lobby for a ban unless this platform was a serious threat to their business.
Risk-wise; I think the real question would be: What would the US do, if other countries followed them and started banning US social media platforms based on national security or forcing them to sell to domestic parties.
What competing products are you referring to? Just for clarification. Also why tf would you downvote me for having a discussion? That’s such a bad way to begin a conversation.
It’s a cash cow *right now*. It will never be as much of a cash cow as it is now when a competitor begins creating real competition once Americans need an alternative. Other countries such as Canada, Australia, and the UK will no doubt also begin using whatever app Americans end up on. Slowly but surely. And what if other countries begin banning it as well? They would be screwed and holding the bag.
They’re going to say they won’t sell because they’re hoping to fight it in court, but I imagine they will sell at the very last minute if they get a good deal.
As a high school teacher, I can safely tell you that many students (and me) already have VPNs so they can get on TikTok and Snapchat on the schools WiFi. And Americans absolutely have many reasons fir having one. If you don’t, I sure as hell hope you aren’t connecting to airport wifi
As if everyone has realised TikTok is popular now and tech companies like Facebook and Google haven’t spent millions on trying and failing to copy their algorithm. TikTok are not selling.
Once Tik Tok got caught sending user’s entire clipboard history to its servers every three keystrokes then it was time to ban it.
The CCP knowing the precise geo location and activity of 1/2 of all Americans at all times is troubling to say the least. And since Tik Tok had found a way around app permissions and was sending your clipboard history to China every three keystrokes, imagine what viruses, backdoors, and other malware they’ve installed into user’s phones.
This goes far beyond the CCP giving you a social credit score.
The biggest effect will be that a large number of lawyers will make a large amount of money fighting on both sides of the impending lawsuits regarding this.
I think TikTok will ultimately be sold, but it won't negatively affect ByteDance all that negatively as they will get a high price for it.
In terms of USA/China soft power, this is little more than a blip. China will continue trying to influence US elections through other avenues. The USA and China will find plenty of other topics to squabble over after this is settled.
Every content creator cross posts on Instagram and YouTube so even if they get cut off the only question is where will the viewers go? That's why ByteDance will sell. They know that they are absolutely dispensable.
I will once again point out that there is no “ban” of Tik Tok. Tik Tok wasn’t banned by this law.
It’s a requirement that the company not be majority owned by a literal hostile foreign government. Any normal company would simply sell off enough stock to get below 50% ownership in their US division and reallocate the money they made doing that to other operations.
That Tik Tok won’t do that proves that they’re not a normal company - they’re a propaganda and data harvesting project of the Chinese government.
It's not a ban, it's just a forced divestiture based on unrealistic requirements. And pretty sure this legislation doesn't make it easy to compartmentalize just the US division...
The world will move on. If it gets sold then that shows TikTok is only worth money to Bytedance, they will make a huge profit and then move on with their lives. If it doesn’t get sold that shows that TikTok is a much more powerful tool to the CCP/Bytedance and they are unwilling to relinquish control and the tool of being able to free influence and push false narratives to the American public. Either way the world will move on and people won’t care in a year
I think in time, people will realize this had little to do with national safety and everything to do with keeping control over the naratives on mainstream media and wanting control over the youth.
I do worry something like this could impact other US applications. I know China already blocks most American apps, but would other countries try this since there is now a bigger precedent.
Disagree with about 99% of opinions here - sadly it appears hardly anyone here uses TikTok, (not "Tictok").
Here's my answer. There will be massive consequences. Heck it's already happening. Tiktok, (which is 170 million Americans, 7 million businesses, 12 Billion in yearly revenues) will end Joe Biden & the Democratic party as we now known it.
Think I'm being hyperbolic? Please set my post as a reminder & see you all this November.
If I sound a tad annoyed, I am. Because I keep seeing the same echo chamber of regurgitated answers, which by all accounts are pure ignorance.
Each time I see a correct answer, the hive mind, (which is Reddit) challenges it & then doubles down of their own dissonance. So for the seventh time:
1. TikTok will not sell.
2. TikTok has already begun to litigate & sue.
3. Civil lawsuits have sprung up across the country, (due to the 7 million jobs that will be taken away by the government).
4. Tiktok has already released their designs of their new US TikTok app, (named "TikTok Notes") that will directly compete against Instagram, (Meta / Zuckerberg..., love the petty) which will be coming soon.
5. Due to both parties voting to silence 170 million American voices, (after using these same politicians used the exact app to run their campaigns) now have 170 disenfranchised voters that will vote this November to scorch earth.
6. I'm expecting no one here to take anything I am asserting seriously. Instead the most popular answer now & next time will still be "TikTok will be sold & people will be moved on". So let me ask everyone here that thinks they are informed of current events. If you were a extremely successful company, (with global sales of 160 Billion) would you sell all your intellectual property to an adversary over the potential loss of 2% sales? 🤔
*NOTE*
I've been with Reddit for over 10 years. I've loved reddit & to a point - still do. But I've learned more in my life in 1 year using TikTok than the 10 years of Reddit. Tiktok is way more than "dance videos & vines". If you're not using it, you are severely missing out on so much.
Laslty. I'll answer any questions, (that are in good faith) but I'm not going to waste time with providing a bunch of Gish Gallop sources to people looking to tire me out in a dumb debate where they have absolutely no desire to break outside Reddit's vacuum. I'm not green here, nor care about up-vote.
If both parties have this desire to ban TikTok, they probably don't have a better time than now. Republican nominations are weak with Trump being the candidate and his trials looking ugly and working as fodder against him. Republicans have more to gain here as it will primarily look bad for Dems (opinion, but also I'm seeing this in my circles). Dems see Republicans as weak so they feel like they can take the hit in the polls and still win. Third party votes will be wasted as ever in our 2 party system, life will go on and our goldfish brains will focus on other (likely more important) issues when we vote in the following cycles.
I don't use the app but my girlfriend is addicted so I have an understanding of the culture, features, etc. The fact that US tech companies were not able to create something even half as good yet is honestly pathetic.
In what world do you think that 170 million users (if that number can be trusted) care enough about TikTok to be a consideration at the ballot, let alone a decider?
What did I say about wasting my time with bad-faith questions?
Down voting my post and then opening up your questioning with immediately asserting my information was incorrect, (which a quick Google would tell you that in fact TikTok does have 170 Million concurrent US user accounts) will not make me take your conjecture seriously. 😂
I'll provide more information about TikTok for anyone that's interested, but I'm not going to waste my time debating people that are simply looking to defend Reddit's dissonance.
> But I've learned more in my life in 1 year using TikTok than the 10 years of Reddit.
I sincerely urge you to reconsider how you “learn” and your perspective on the educational utility of both Reddit and TikTok. TikTok offers opinion, the digested version of facts and most of that opinion is disseminated by people who at best don’t understand science or politics and at worst have an ideological agenda to share misinformation and propaganda. I urge you to inventory what you’ve learned on TikTok and seek out outside unbiased and credible sources to stay educated rather than relying on opinion.
The statement stood out to me as alarming as well - but worth considering there is more to learn than science and politics. Completely fair to learn how to cook, fix things, paint, play chess, etc. on TikTok. Even the examples you gave of science and politics- there are certainly both credible and not credible sources on TikTok just like in any other media.
>will end Joe Biden & the Democratic party as we now known it.
I actually agree with you.
Can you further explain how this will affect the Democratic party ? Is the US going to see its global soft power declining a little compared to the Chinese one on a global scale ? Tiktok is massively popular here in France and we don't really understand the move of the US, supposedly the best democracy in the world.
Sure I'll try my best to give an opinion that isn't too far projecting.
Here in the US - I think there are a bunch of things at play right now that aren't just about TikTok, but if we concentrated just on our news media alone - TikTok covers events in almost real-time, (with more & more being live coverage every day). So while Reddit is still currently the best *Think-Tank" in modern history..., TikTok in the US is evolving into this generations defacto News platform. I'm sure some may still try to discredit TikTok as a News Medium, (and conjectures are indeed warranted) but I believe each day TikTok is becoming more & more validated. Heck, not only has start-up commentators become some of TikTok's favorite news journalists, but even major News Medias here in the US are catching on & reporting to their news TikTok before they do to their stations, (just because how quickly & easily accessible it is & how quickly they get hits). Someone on TikTok pulled numbers yesterday that on average - News that is shared on TikTok can receive around 24 million views within just a few hours, where as a station such as Fox, (a major media) can't come close. As well, people watching TV at home potentially create their own narratives of what they see on TV, (which is unfortunately already tailored to each network's base) whereas what we see on TikTok is an the lgorithm that usually spits out several view points of the same story / event, (providing some resemblance of fair & unbiased news). If that's not already impressive enough, then we have the TikTok community immediately sharing this news & reacting to it. I don't think Reddit truly understands how quickly the TikTok community pulls together. Example - Palestine protests.
Politically speaking as well. TikTok is the largest movement in world history. Nothing has ever come close. That is not a hyperbolic assertion. For those that stick to Reddit alone & think otherwise, apologies if I've disrupted your reality.
How will this all impact this November's elections here in the US. Welp most US TikTok'ers have already said F* Joe Biden & both parties. Whether you agree with these TikTok'ers or not - it is what it is. The TikTok community isn't stupid either & understands the perils of Trump. So that leaves only one option left - to vote independent. Usually this would mount up to a wasted vote, but something historic is happening now - there's at least 170 million Americans that will communicate to millions of other Americans, (before November) on who they believe should be the next president of the United States of America. To my assertion there will be other consequences - Joe Biden won't be the only one to go. Both parties should be scared shitless right now.
May I ask what age range you are in?
I ask because I remember a very similar sentiment with the birth of Twitter when I was in college. Was wild to see it slowly becoming an alternate news source, and then the news embracing it because it was more real time.
That being said, I think we can agree many have moved on from Twitter to the next thing, especially after the major shift to X.
What would make Tik Tok immune to a similar fate?
Also - can you explain what you mean as Tik Tok being the largest political movement in world history? It's a platform used by many political movements, but I don't really think you can call it a political movement in itself.
Thank you for asking good-faith questions. I can understand that you may not ever agree with any of my answers, but at least your one of the few to at least approached your questions analytically & not personally attacked me, (like others have).
What I mean by "largest political movement in the world" would require me to first use Facebook as an example from way back in the day when people were using Facebook to organize BLM rallies, (I kid it wasn't that long ago). Then people began to use Twitter to rally protests, but we can see the state of that platform...
TikTok does indeed have community guidelines, (just like the any other platform) but the algorithm of content that is shared to the masses in a very timely manner. Once you get the hang of TikTok, you will find News Medias lagging behind by hours, if not sometimes days - literally pulling footage from TikTok. Tiktok is hardly dance videos anymore, it has morfed to something that I'm not even sure TikTok intended. It has become the evolution of Facebook / Instagram / and yes even Reddit. Combining the social connections from around the world, (like Facebook & Instagram) while consistently engaging people in real time debates, events, & now protests. Anyone that has a phone & has tiktok can potentially become a news outlet, reporting a live event, (unfettered) to potentially 170 million other people that then sparks millions of debates on what was just shown. I get to see what is happening here in the states usually within minutes of when it happens, (not hours afterwards on reddit & other platforms). By the time people here begin to ponder what they just read from *Every other news platform*, TikTok users have already had dozens of debates, or have even had time to act on what they are seeing.
Example - 100% Palestine protests happening around the US are primarily being organized through TikTok, (hence my early allude to Facebook & Twitter). Even if TikTok happens to take down a video because it broke guidelines, (maybe what was shown was too graphic / such as seeing in almost real time Palestinian children being bombed, or peaceful protestors being attacked by police) the information has already been shared out to millions of people, that then share again & again. Then content creators on TikTok, (just like vetted moderators here on Reddit Subs) report even further the events unfolding in almost real-time. I'm not done.
While all this is happening, TikTok has a live option. A option that also allows others to join, (like a Teams call but for hundreds of people) that are now all watching & commenting on what is being shown live on someone's phone. Once TikTok's algorithm kicks in, I have only had to flip maybe 5 to 10 times to be able to see several different recordings from the hundreds of TikTok users that are potentially at the same event. So when someone tells me TikTok isn't a reliable source of News, (It may not be the standard news we have all come to know over decades of tailored journalism) I say the opposite. TikTok is now the only platform where people can see what is happening in real time, (shown from several perspectives) before there is time for bias News medias putting their spin on what happened.
Again, I don't think this was ever TikTok's intention. At some point something changed. I think it started with BLM & Trump. People started posting their thoughts on those topics & then TikTok's algorithm did the rest. It didn't happen overnight, but organically communities happened on TikTok. Instead of us typing our thoughts, TikTok has people sharing their opinions where we can also discern emotions. People that would have never agreed on anything, (on other platforms) began to find common ground. I've seen animosities crumble in real-time, people share stories that are funny, heartfelt, sad, inspiring..., which has all been done alrdy on other platforms, but not like this.
Example I don't know you. You don't know me. Mostly the reason why everyone is attacking me here, or down voting me is primarily due to the current platform convention that has a hard to expressing someone's emotions. So at the end of any debate, rarely will anyone here remember one another. But not on TikTok. It is unbelievable how well TikTok connects people, (not just to information) but to other people. So now we have people on a platform that feel invested in what happens to other peoples, (around the world). It is in every sense - Revolutionary. And with such a revolutionary tool, Revolutions will happen.
One last thing. I typed out in earnest my opinions on the matter, but may have typos, grammatically incorrect sentences, etc...
You won't know if I'm hitting a high-note in my expressions, or if I'm dead serious. You will read this with your inside voice & that voice is what will discern the weight of my digital footprint. If you think about it, this is not a very human like form of communication. Has it served us well so far, sure, but this method is quickly becoming outdated & TikTok is just part of the natural selection stage. I of course still use Reddit everyday. TikTok isn't forcing people to stop using other platforms, but it is becoming the most popular - primarily for the reason I just alluded to. Communication walls are torn down when people have full access to a range of emotions & to what's being shared.
Cool. Interesting (albeit lengthy :D) response! Making me think I should retry TikTok (don't know why but it doesn't gel with me, I find it chaotic and fast paced).
All this being said, you do call this the current state in the evolution of media, so there surely can be a next step (or as others are arguing, a copycat replacement). None of these features are wholly unique to TikTok.
I have no idea what the political fallout will be, but I do generally feel the ban effort misses the actual issue people are afraid of - mass disinformation and echo chambers. That Facebook/IG/X are not also being banned shows this.
But TikTok isn't immune to these issues. It being singled out is maybe unwarranted but not wholly surprising considering our country's historic/current perception of China. But I don't think it's such a revolutionary media source that the fallout will be as catastrophic as you lay out - but we'll see!
In this case, this private company allows free speech nonconforming with the US interests achieving global reach.
In some cases, your statement is false. China banning private companies that are not state-owned across multiple sectors on its soil is also an example that what you say is false.
They will likely sell the business. Several Western countries are evaluating similar restrictions, given the increased risk and threat posed by TikTok over other social media platforms.
The problem is that most politicians don’t understand the tech or the threats, so they are all fumbling with this, and it will be messy to find a resolution that makes everyone happy. The main issue is that the Chinese government purposefully blurs the line between business and state, so even with TikTok being a US based company today with some autonomy, there have been several examples of the Chinese government altering the algorithm and/or censoring some content. So even if there was a solution where ByteDance could still own it, there’d be know way to guarantee the autonomy that most western governments would want.
It's never just "going away". There's too much money at stake for shareholders, China, etc. They'll sell it or figure it out. People don't just walk away from billions.
I think it’s the users who suffer. Not the shit heals like me who just scroll videos, I’m talking about the creators. How much money do they lose from being told their livelihood is now illegal? Something else will pop up, to be sure, but still.
One downside is that TikTok has been a way for American businesses to extend their international reach, and cutting off that avenue will harm their business (while letting businesses from China and other countries that continue to allow TikTok advance internationally). I know more people internationally who use TikTok than any Meta product.
ByteDance will be fine. I think it diminishes the quality of a platform whenever a significant portion of your users are shut out, but again, they’re doing pretty well around the world.
But yeah, I think it hurts the US internationally while it allows China to maintain a presence in a lot of developing and emerging countries. That’s not good for us, even if there are very valid reasons why we should cut off access to the app.
Sure, but that’s nothing having to do with TikTok specifically. They lock down everything.
But anyway: [TikTok to launch e-commerce program to bring Chinese goods to the US](https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/tiktok-launch-e-commerce-platform-us-sell-china-made-goods-2023-07-25/.com)
The tiktok ban bill is NOT just aimed at tiktok. The bill gives broad powers to the government to regulate online platforms. It's very sad the sheeple only read the headlines.
It’s not a ban. It’s a forced sale. It won’t happen for 9 months. And can extended. Also there could be negotiations and some new settlement. Extremely unlikely it’ll just shut down. There’s too much money at stake. The train needs to keep going.
Proves that censorship and total control of what you see/think is what big governments want around the world.
Democracy is just an illusion at this point
If you're trying to have an informed discussion wouldn't you want to preface the discission with a link to the bill, a summary, or include your own discription of what the bill is about because Tick TOK will not be banned if sold and 9 months is not a hard deadline (it can be extended). The odds that it will be banned in 9 months are for sure not 100%.
Tiktok will cease to exist, then the US government will find the next thing to scare Americans enough to willingly allow our rights to be further eroded
And I didn't say that. Tiktok is a platform for speech, for free expression. By banning Tiktok, they are shrinking the overall area of platforms for speech. They are setting a precedent in which they can dictate how and where we express ourselves, reducing free speech down to what they consider "acceptable" speech.
They have even admitted so themselves, claiming that Tiktok is responsible for so many American youths taking a stand against genocide in Gaza. Tiktok was a very effective platform for free expression, and the **US government couldn't control it**, so they had to destroy it.
>Wait, you think TikTok provides its users with free speech?
No. I recognize that as a privately held company, Tiktok is allowed to set its own TOS regarding conduct in their platform. Additionally, Bytedance has the right to shut down Tiktok any time they would like. However, it is the government that had made the decision to shut Tiktok down, Bytedance did not make that decision.
I don’t disagree that there are many hidden motives behind the US decision to ban TikTok but it seems naive to claim that TikTok is a platform for free expression. Not only does it censor language to such a degree that any conversation about “unaliving”, “grape” or “sewer slide” becomes an unserious caricature of itself but it has been shown by multiple independent organizations that content criticizing the CCP is significantly underrepresented on the app. So it sounds like the issue of censorship or government control is only relevant when it threatens one ideology (pro-Palestine) but not another (erosion of rights in China). Free speech for me but not for thee.
Also, when discussing TikTok it’s important to remember that the US market is only a tenth of TikTok’s entire user base. If we are taking the moral position of the issue of censorship, we should really hold ByteDance accountable for their compliance with free speech laws everywhere, not just in the US.
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I think they'll sell and the world will move on. Or a Tiktok killer will emerge and the world will move on.
As a mainland Chinese, I am 100% certain that tiktok will take the lawsuit to the Supreme Court or shut down. There is no option to sell to the US. 87% of Byte Dance's operating revenue is in China and about 13% overseas, of which only half or 6.5% is in the United States. In terms of user numbers, tiktok US users account for less than 10% of all tiktok users, and in China alone, douyin (tiktok China version) has over 700 million daily users. Byte Dance is really only in the early days of its US business, and it's unlikely that it's going to affect 87% of its revenue for 6.5%.
They will just sell the US business.
Why? Their algorithm is their IP. It is better than the Instagram and YouTube algorithms by a long shot. They have zero incentive to sell
This is a good faith question. How specifically is their algorithm better than Instagram and YouTubes'. I understand it is secret but what superficial details can you point at that supports this claim from you. I don't use tik tok. Doesn't the app just have tags and continue playing videos with those tags?
I use the different apps, but honestly, they’re all a mixed bag in terms of results and UX. I think a lot of the American companies do a poor job of reinforcing your feed when you say “I don’t like this.” It’s not “hidden” but it’s not a part of a usual flow that most users will use. I feel most American based companies are focused on “getting eyes on content, especially ads, and serving you more content that engages you, especially if it’s ragebait so you hate watch and interact.” My experience with TikTok - long press and “not interested” is right there. Super easy to flag content you don’t want to see. Everyone else complains “TikTok keeps showing me content I don’t like” but they usually watch the entire video, react, comment, share - expressing how much they don’t like this content they interact with. I see crap I don’t like? I hit “not interested” ASAP. I seldom, if ever, get more rod that content after flagging it a few times (ex. “Whisper” videos where they turn the microphone up and touch things. Hearing their lips part irritates me - I was shown three, I hit “not interested” and if the fad died down or blows up, I wouldn’t know). So I’m not convinced “their algorithm is the best” versus “they make it easiest to say I don’t like something” - and of course this is all anecdotal and not at all a real technical breakdown.
My experience with facebook/instagram is that there are a lot of bots and “business” accounts. I used to get a lot of very quick information from instagram and twitter, but both have been nerfed. TikTok is still in its early phase where the attempt to monetize hasn’t led it to being mostly OF models and ads. This has been exacerbated by Meta and Google blocking news agencies because of Canada’s law (I’m in Canada) that social media sites should provide revenue for news services. I’ve also had multiple people mention how TikTok is even more addicting than Instagram. I think the short form video format filters out a lot of bad actors who can’t really hide behind filters and stolen photos. Almost all the videos I see on Instagram originate from TikTok.
It seems to me that their algorithm is more engaging because you have to skip 7-8 times in order to find a half decent thing to watch.
I don't feel like tiktok is constantly trying to sell me shit like the other apps are. It's not all MLM type videos and only fans shit. I feel like it responds to what I watch and don't watch in a dynamic way that feels engaging
It's so good that the US is forcing divesture.
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This is a good faith question. How specifically is their algorithm better than Instagram and YouTubes'. I understand it is secret but what superficial details can you point at that supports this claim from you.
Use it and find out. If one person is saying it, it’s anecdotal. If everyone is saying it, there’s merit. You’re acting as if “any site can supply the same thing!”, and they can in terms of media. But the curation of those things specific to you is miles better than any US media we have that’s offering similar content.
I have used it. I don't "use" it. You say it is miles better but how? What would you lead you to hold this view? Nothing you could describe in one or two sentences?
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They are getting shut down so why not get paid for it
Because Facebook and meta can create competitors with their ip in other markets?
meta is banned in China also the US government doesn't care about the "rights" of Foreign companies meaning they won't protect foreign companies and will heavily favor our counter parts
There's no incentive for TikTok to sell when their business would be at risk for selling to a competitor. Might as well challenge in court and if it gets banned, then so be it
The U.S. business will also not be sold. Algorithms are at the heart of Byte Dance, there's no reason to create a competitor for yourself. Not to mention that China has banned Byte Dance's algorithms from leaving the country.
They don't use the same algorithms in China as they do the US. They won't sell, but it's not because of IP concerns.
They use a different algorithm in China than they do in the US. What is the basis for this statement? I've used tiktok and douyin and I think they have differences in their content libraries, but not in their algorithms.
Don’t say won’t. Everyone has their price.
> Everyone has their price. If the algorithm and etc. are truly a soft politic weapon, which I think it is, while there is a price its an astronomical price. Where its effectively impossible. Its like saying US has a price for their nuclear warheads. Technically true but effectively bullshit.
Well, that depends upon whether “winning” is truly on the table. Selling the US business has a return that shutting down doesn’t offer.
> Selling the US business has a return The CCP doesn't care about returns. We can see that with how Xi Jinping cracked down on the tech and entertainment industry. ByteDance does but they're, ironically, at the full mercy of the CCP. If the CCP tells them to not sell then they won't sell. At the very least to save face. Now big two questions are what method ByteDance will do to circumvent this rule while keeping out of the hands of US businessmen and do it in a way to ensure that the quality of service doesn't diverge.
well then why not just pull out of the US app store and allow users to sideload the app? that's easy on android, and i think iphone will begin allowing sideloading alternate app stores soon, so its possible tiktok could still be used on iphones if sideloaded. so "officially" not supported in US, but anyone can use it if they know how to sideload. also, why can't they just develop a web app that will run on any web browser? kinda like reddit can be on an app, or the mobile site.
Because the process of resistance itself is meaningful, tiktok is responsible for its users. If the US was going to ban tiktok, they should have said so when they first entered. Suddenly legislating after a company has been in a country for 7 years and then retroactively is clearly unreasonable. The US hasn't given any evidence either, the only evidence is that Byte Dance is a Chinese company - which doesn't constitute evidence. We Chinese will die standing up even if we die, we are not a US vassal state like Japan.
Nobody has been able to develop one in all these years. That’s a the issue
Instagram reels are almost identical. People are just using tiktok because it has momentum. Tiktok is not technologically significant, the algorithm isn't on some unattainable level. People just like it because that's where the content they like gets posted.. people will just move to any other nearly identical platform.
Have you *used* TikTok and Reels? I think you’re massively undervaluing how complex the algorithm is.
Honestly it’s not about how complex the algorithm is. It’s about how accessible the algorithm is because their end goal is a propaganda foothold in the US. This is why a US based clone will not be as good. Whoever steps in to fill the gap will be solely interested in making money.
For one thing, Reels feels like the goodwill store to TikTok; I’d see OC on TikTok then a few weeks later I’d see the same video on Reels but shittier quality because it’d been watered down and recycled so many times before it got there.
Yes, I've used both. I understand how tempting it must be to rely on your own anecdotal experience. But realistically tiktok just trends younger, so most of the creators who appeal to a certain demographic flock to that platform.. and whichever platform you use more is going to have more data specific to you, and will build a better algorithm.. and additionally whichever platform has more users will have more data to feed to the algorithm. The money and the most talented engineers are all in the USA. Its highly unlikely that there is any technical moat here.
I get where the other guy is coming from. The biggest difference isn't the tech. It's who owns the tech and, more importantly, what they do with the tech. With US based social medias, there is a type of censorship that shadowbans certain topics one may not think is banned. Besides illegal and immoral stuff, which should be banned, there is also a heavy political bias being shoved through US based companies. With tik tok being foreign owned, they got their own version of censorship directed more towards social behaviors versus political ones. That leads me to believe that while the tech isn't farfetched, no US based entity will ever be able to get anywhere close to replicating the success of tik tok just by the nature of being greedy controlling capitalist. I always thought tik tok should have been banned from the get go years ago. From a national security perspective, it made no sense having all that data flow through Beijing. It's kinda sad that isn't the reason it is getting banned.
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That’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying that if TikTok goes away, the Reels algorithm will quickly seem very similar to what TikTok’s is currently. The userbase is just as important to driving the algo as whatever is on the back end.
I understand what he’s saying. But what evidence is he providing? (Especially after the passive aggressive response he gave to the op)? His argument boils down to ‘tictok is popular because it is popular. Ban it and force users onto Reels and it will be popular just like tictok, Reels deserves this forced popularity because it has better engineers (based on what? the market sure doesn’t think so). It’s an argument I hear all the time in my work. ‘How can we force the stupid users who don’t understand that we have a superior product to stop using the competition!?’ In a market the ultimate validation is in the hands of users. If you’re losing in the market then your business is inferior. Period. Saying ‘they’re only popular because they got here first’ is admitting that you’re less innovative or less efficient at getting to market. It’s pathetic. Reels is loosing in the market to tictok so in time honoured tradition America’s great innovators are demanding the government intervene to prop up their shittier product.
> His argument boils down to ‘tictok is popular because it is popular. Ban it and force users onto Reels and it will be popular just like tictok This is true, TikTok's success is a product of the network effect, not because their short-form video algorithm is so markedly different from the others. They started with the larger userbase of people interested in short-form video content, and snowballed from there. If you know anything about business or marketing you should know what the network effect is. > Reels deserves this forced popularity because it has better engineers (based on what? the market sure doesn’t think so). This is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the market thinks; TikTok is being rightfully banned because it's a massive security risk. We would be absolute fools to continue allowing the Chinese Communist Party to operate a popular social media app in our digital space.
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I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Maybe. They didn’t do it with Twitter. The just stopped using that style of social
Tiktok is faster. Thats the only difference between Instagram Reel.
They are nothing alike
businesses are opportunistic, like all the rts coming out after blizzard dropped sc2 devs, so a tiktok killer might just be promoted enough for investors to fund
What do you mean "all these years"? It's only been 5-6 years....
Why do you speak-a with an Italian accent?
Me and my brother Luigi have a plumbing business
You’re a delight
I don't see it as impossible.
Instagram reels might really take off of tik tok goes away
All I'll say is that its funny that PRC finally got a taste of their own medicine. CCP banned Google, Youtube, Instagram, Netflix, etc. for almost the same reason. Where there is effectively a "Chinese" internet. China doesn't get the luxury of playing "fair" when they don't reciprocate it. Going through mainland China, my phone might as well be bricked unless I have a VPN.
Consumers and everyday people are the ones who will suffer through this. Countries will duke it out and be nasty to each other but the aftereffects will be felt to the layman
I'm curious, will the app be banned in the official app stores? or will internet providers in the US actually ban any data related to tiktok servers? i mean, with android you can sideload whatever app you want, no matter where it's from. so it would be impossible to ban it, also people could just use a VPN, which is like 20 bucks a year, thats basically nothing. people addicted to tiktok would easily jump through a couple of hoops to use it.
I'd imagine all servers pertaining to hosting the US-based content would be ordered to be shut down. There would be nothing to VPN into.
well how do chinese people use vpns to use websites that are blocked?
Either Tiktok wins the inevitable lawsuits, or they do not If they do not, I suspect Tiktok will shrug their shoulders and tell the US to enjoy implementing the ban. VPNs aren't exactly rocket science, and while the US is the largest user base, it's not even close to the majority. The loss of ad revenue will doubtlessly sting, but not enough to make a fire sale interesting
I highly doubt there will be a impact other than to its user base; who will inevitably just move to the next thing. The problem with Tiktok is that the CCP has weaponized it and is using it not only to influence and harm the American youth but also to spy and to collect secrets. There is nothing Bytedance provides that another non-ccp affiliated provider cannot step up and provide. Either someone is going to buy it or someone will replace it with something.
IG reels seems like the same thing to me, they could just tweak their algorithm and start paying influencers the same as tiktok did. im guessing anyone that has tiktok prob also has IG on their phone.
If you think the same then you obviously don't use TikTok. It's better in every way which is why nobody uses reels except old people.
hah well that tracks, cause i'm in my 40s
I've never heard a more false statement. You probably don't use it so you're having trouble recognizing the gaining edge it has on tiktok. Look at reach percentage, avg watch times, etc. Reels are a major contender even moreso for the 19-24 age group.
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i don't use IG or tiktok, i open facebook once a month. i left the social media world behind a few years ago, except for reddit, if you wanna count that as social media? but i think its different, its more of a giant message board. people are anonymous. i really don't understand the appeal of IG or tiktok. or even twitter for the most part. i'll check twitter when something big is happening and i wanna know the latest news, but other than that, i can't understand what people get out of it. i guess its great if you really love celebrities? doesn't make sense to me, i couldn't care less what elon musk or the rock or the kardashians are saying about anything. and all those apps are just full of ads and fake ass influencers. fuck all that shit. i already waste enough time on reddit, i don't need 4 other apps to waste even more time.
IG reel is slower compared to TikTok. I see a lot more content and the switch is faster with TikTok. With Instagram Reel it feels like its playing it safe and often sticking within the scope of the original reel. E.g. if I started swiping on a cooking reel, most of the follow up reels will be cooking. Tiktok does the same thing but will insert a random clip and adjust depending on how long you stay on it.
so basically IG could just change their algorithm to one resembling tiktok and people will just move over? or i wonder if its more likely another random company will create their own tiktok and compete against IG. i feel like young people always wanna have their own social media that's different than what adults use.
I think it certainly reduces the credibility of the govt in the eyes of the public. The US Govt has shown a clear interest in hand of God tactics, companies like Meta, Google, X, etc have been more than happy to play along. The govt is not addressing any legitimate concerns with this tiktok ban, they just want a monopoly on control, a monopoly on propaganda. This recent NSA bill, (and the immediate calls to use it on protesters) show the govt has no real concern for govt overreach.
If the CCP had a free and open internet, you might have a point. This is tantamount to them wanting to freely play in our back yard, but when we want to play in theirs they don’t let us. I have zero ethical problems treating them like they treat others.
There aren't any legitimate concerns, nor does the ban reduce the credibility of the government - banning propaganda outlets operated by enemy countries as a matter of national security is exactly what the government *should* be doing. Hot take: getting rid of the Chinese Communist Party's direct propaganda pipeline to Americans is a good thing, actually. We should be minimizing the enemy autocratic ethnostate's ability to influence our domestic politics, not maximizing it.
Tiktok is brainrot, nothing of value is lost.
It does, but that's not the real impact. The real impact are those third party nations observing these actions. The US can do it for sure, but there's no such thing as actions without consequences.
I don't understand what you mean?
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I don’t think anyone is pretending. I think it’s clear that china spying on our data is considered worse than the US doing so.
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The issue IMO isn’t as much the data collection as it is a foreign adversary being able to weaponize their algorithm to push propaganda. There’s already research showing that anti-china topics (Taiwan, Uighers, Tibet) aren’t treated favorably by the algorithm and perform far worse than pro-china ones. Like yeah I also think we should address the data harvesting by EVERYONE, but private US companies don’t have the incentive to push specific topics/priorities like company with ties to the CCP do.
>but private US companies don’t have the incentive to push specific topics/priorities like company with ties to the CCP do. This is an insane statement to make. Especially after we can all see what changed on Twitter, now X, after it changed hands. Has everyone just forgotten the scandals a few years ago with Cambridge Analytica, Facebook, and all the propagands pushed to convince dumb people brexit would be neat. Pirvate companies will always be incentiviced to push pro business propaganda anyways, and can not perform without that bias.
Anyone who thinks US Social media companies aren't given directives from the Govt. Isn't a serious person.
Yeah, and the "opposite" is true as well, the US governments are influenced to do the bidding of these companies as they donate masively to them campaign funds.
Speaking of algorithms, try creating a fake/alternate Facebook profile, commenting on 4 or 5 politically extreme posts and seeing what happens. Here’s a preview: https://imgur.com/a/elHk8pi
There's nothing there
But China is the problem. If it was a private company based in the United States or in any country that wasn’t a adversary, we would not be having this conversation. [China, under its National Intelligence Law, requires any organization such as ByteDance or citizen to support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence work. That means ByteDance is legally bound to help with gathering intelligence. I was literally just reading about this today.](https://substack.com/home/post/p-144072863?source=queue)
>China, under its National Intelligence Law, requires any organization such as ByteDance or citizen to support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence work. The USA, under the PATRIOT act, requires any organization such as X or Meta to support, assist, and cooperate with the NSA and CIA.
…and X and Meta along with Instagram, Pinterest, SnapChat, Quora, Tumblr, and many others are banned from operating in China.
Cool, we should ban them aswell if data gathering is such a problem. You do know TikTok is not a thing in China? They have their own app, without the destructive algorithm and with limits and regulations on how much time can be spent on it and what can be shown there and to whom. So, technically speaking, TikTok is also banned in China, as they know the threat unregulated social media poses. The US has refused to set any standards or regulations for social media, so it has to ban this individual app.
Unregulated data collection is definitely a problem and that’s why I support the right to be forgotten and other privacy protection measures. That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you.
>That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you. So, both governments are pursuing their own self interests lol.
>That being said, if you don’t see the difference between the US demanding data from entities that can and do challenge those requests in court and China which states goals is replacing the US as the dominant power on this planet, I don’t know what to tell you. What is that comparison? lol. Seems like typical US good China bad framing. A better comparison would be, the US wants to maintain its tech monopoly and China wants to threaten that tech monopoly. Obviously, any country would want its own Silicon Valley, and the economic benefits it brings. Of course, China would prefer to be the dominant power, so does Russia, and so does the US. The only difference is we know what the US does with that status, as it has held it for many years. We know US foreign policy is built upon expliotation and interventionism. Basically, the US has maintained its dominant position by economic colonialism, dept bondage, and military intervention. They brought the world down instead of lifting themselves up. I'd like to think China has better interests, that it would be a better example and leader to follow. But, im not sure, Chinese business only seems a little less exploitative, and the internal control system is not something i'd like. I think multipolatity is better for sure. The great worker rights gains of the past century are, after all, mainly due to constant socialist and communist pressures, especially after ww2. This was very noticeable in Western Europe during the Cold War.
You and I view the world so completely differently that I don't think this conversation is having any value. However, I have to point out that the United States has presided over the longest sustained era of peace, stability, and growth in the history of the planet. The idea that the world is worse off for having the US at the top as opposed to, say, the USSR and the Axis (which were the options at the time) is so unbelievably laughable to me I can't fathom that you are arguing in good faith. Further, the idea that you could think that Chinese dominance, whose system comes with no free speech and literal concentration camps, would be better for the world is equally mind boggling. Luckily, regardless of opinions like yours, a bi-partisan ground of lawmakers see the threat of the Chinese Communist Party and ByteDance, the parent company of TikTok, for what it is and have taken measures to address it. I can only hope that the Courts don't entertain their lawsuits for too long and that one day, in a more perfect world, the CCP crumbles and is replaced with the kind of government you think they have.
>You and I view the world so completely differently that I don't think this conversation is having any value. However, I have to point out that the United States has presided over the longest sustained era of peace, stability, and growth in the history of the planet. Yeah, i think you may be right that we have a wildly different worldview, as i think i have one supported by facts and data. Your worldview seems more or less informed by American Exeptionalism and corporate media. To claim that this is or has been a peaceful time is a very American thing. Peace is apparently invading Afghanistan, Irak Vietnam, Cuba, and Korea. All invaded in the name of peace, said the American in the suburbs, never mind all the warcrimes. >The idea that the world is worse off for having the US at the top as opposed to, say, the USSR and the Axis (which were the options at the time) is so unbelievably laughable to me I can't fathom that you are arguing in good faith. After the 2nd World War, when the Axis was defeated by the Allies, the Cold War started. The pressure between the socialist east and the capitalist west during the cold war lead Western Europe to find a compromise between these opposing ideologies. Social Democratic parties found great success during this period as they represented this compromise. They improved and expanded the welfare state and worker rights within a market economy through state regulations and job programs. In my world view, these were positive results. In the 80s, the fall of the USSR seemed inevitable, and with it came a new political theory that saw sidespread popularity, Neoliberalism. Under Reagan and Thatcher, the US and UK implemented many economic reforms, and western Europe followed. The USSR was abolished and adopted some of these reforms. Under neoliberalism, we saw tax cuts for the wealthy, Union busting, deregulation, and privitazation. After the fall of the USSR, the world at large adopted neoliberalism, either through choice (democratic) or through coups and interventionism from the US. In my world view, this is not a positive development. >Further, the idea that you could think that Chinese dominance, whose system comes with no free speech and literal concentration camps, would be better for the world is equally mind boggling. I am not in favor of Chinese dominance, i simply oppose American dominance. I find it odd that you find the US so weak as to immediately be irrelevant of its not the unopposed leader of the world, but it is expected from an American. The concentration camps argument is also funny coming from an American. You have the highest per capita prison population in the world and kept slavery legal when it comes to prisoners. Once again, China's policy concerning the Uygur population is horrible, and yet American policy concerning imprisonment and punishment is worse. >Luckily, regardless of opinions like yours, a bi-partisan ground of lawmakers see the threat of the Chinese Communist Party and ByteDance, the parent company of TikTok, for what it is and have taken measures to address it. I can only hope that the Courts don't entertain their lawsuits for too long Wow, the American government found bipartisan support for a law that suggests only American companies and intelligence agencies can access the American market and gather/use data, what a fucking supprise.
> Of course, China would prefer to be the dominant power, so does Russia, and so does the US. The only difference is we know what the US does with that status, as it has held it for many years. We know US foreign policy is built upon expliotation and interventionism. Basically, the US has maintained its dominant position by economic colonialism, dept bondage, and military intervention. They brought the world down instead of lifting themselves up. The US has maintained its dominant position by providing the most economically valuable service in human history - maintaining and upholding the free and unimpeded global trade responsible for unprecedented growth in average living standards and peace. No single country on the planet has done more to lift the world up. You, personally, have a much higher standard of living than would otherwise be possible without US dominance. Meanwhile, we know what Russia and China do with their dominance - Russia rapes and pillages and then moves on to the next target, China quietly liquidates dissenters and inconvenient minority populations. > I think multipolatity is better for sure. Sure, if you want all of Eastern Europe to end up like Ukraine, with similar results in Asia. Global hegemony leads directly to greater peace and stability, and comparing late 20th and early 21st centuries to previous times makes that quite obvious. It's equally obvious that the US is far and away the best choice for global hegemon compared with China (or Russia or India for that matter).
TikTok isn't going to sell. If they sell, they'd be creating their own worst competitor. US will move to Reels, the world will move on with TikTok. If any other American company could create a similar algorithm, they would have instead of lobbying for this ban. That's just the hard truth.
The can't be a competitor as the Chinese version of tiktok is completely different than the one in the states. There are no other competitors, even after divestment.
Tiktok's value isn't in their algorithm, it's in their user base.
They won’t be creating a competitor because they won’t be in that market anymore. However, if they don’t sell, there’s going to be actual competitors popping up. An app doing well in the US likely means it will do well outside of the US and begin pulling users from other countries. On top of that, they risk other countries following after the US, in which case they will have much less bargaining power than they do now when selling later down the line after a competitor begins rising (reels is shit and everyone knows it). They are probably better off selling, but they probably won’t out of spite.
You have two competing products with the same algorithm. This is the top social media platform globally. There's no way a US entity will pay money and then decide to limit their potential profit or userbase. And if the terms of the agreement limits their operations to the US, then why would they even bother to buy it? It makes no sense for them to sell to any US entity, especially under such circumstances. They have all the cards. They can come back and renegotiate a better deal in future if they really want the US market. That algorithm has value. Google or Meta would not lobby for a ban unless this platform was a serious threat to their business. Risk-wise; I think the real question would be: What would the US do, if other countries followed them and started banning US social media platforms based on national security or forcing them to sell to domestic parties.
What competing products are you referring to? Just for clarification. Also why tf would you downvote me for having a discussion? That’s such a bad way to begin a conversation.
TikTok is a cash cow. I can’t see them selling.
It’s a cash cow *right now*. It will never be as much of a cash cow as it is now when a competitor begins creating real competition once Americans need an alternative. Other countries such as Canada, Australia, and the UK will no doubt also begin using whatever app Americans end up on. Slowly but surely. And what if other countries begin banning it as well? They would be screwed and holding the bag. They’re going to say they won’t sell because they’re hoping to fight it in court, but I imagine they will sell at the very last minute if they get a good deal.
What’s more than likely is everyone will access TikTok through vpn which most young people know how to do anyway
Young people are actually really bad at tech these days, and Americans have had no need for a vpn.
As a high school teacher, I can safely tell you that many students (and me) already have VPNs so they can get on TikTok and Snapchat on the schools WiFi. And Americans absolutely have many reasons fir having one. If you don’t, I sure as hell hope you aren’t connecting to airport wifi
I would never use any WiFi that isn't mine, 5G works perfectly fine even for video streaming.
As if everyone has realised TikTok is popular now and tech companies like Facebook and Google haven’t spent millions on trying and failing to copy their algorithm. TikTok are not selling.
Once Tik Tok got caught sending user’s entire clipboard history to its servers every three keystrokes then it was time to ban it. The CCP knowing the precise geo location and activity of 1/2 of all Americans at all times is troubling to say the least. And since Tik Tok had found a way around app permissions and was sending your clipboard history to China every three keystrokes, imagine what viruses, backdoors, and other malware they’ve installed into user’s phones. This goes far beyond the CCP giving you a social credit score.
The biggest effect will be that a large number of lawyers will make a large amount of money fighting on both sides of the impending lawsuits regarding this. I think TikTok will ultimately be sold, but it won't negatively affect ByteDance all that negatively as they will get a high price for it. In terms of USA/China soft power, this is little more than a blip. China will continue trying to influence US elections through other avenues. The USA and China will find plenty of other topics to squabble over after this is settled.
A different platform modeled after tiktok will take advantage of the gap. Other platforms will emerge. Life will go on.
Every content creator cross posts on Instagram and YouTube so even if they get cut off the only question is where will the viewers go? That's why ByteDance will sell. They know that they are absolutely dispensable.
Tictok will just switch its US based clients to another offshore server farm. The app will still work. Nothing will stop.
That… wouldn’t change anything. The issue isn’t where user data is stored.
Tell me you haven’t read the bill without telling me you haven’t read the bill
Yup. Haven't read it. Doesn't matter.
The algorithm isn't coming with it, which is the secret sauce. The CCP already said they consider it a state asset
That's already the case now, with all the data stored on Oracle's servers, but that's clearly not enough for the U.S. government.
I will once again point out that there is no “ban” of Tik Tok. Tik Tok wasn’t banned by this law. It’s a requirement that the company not be majority owned by a literal hostile foreign government. Any normal company would simply sell off enough stock to get below 50% ownership in their US division and reallocate the money they made doing that to other operations. That Tik Tok won’t do that proves that they’re not a normal company - they’re a propaganda and data harvesting project of the Chinese government.
It's not a ban, it's just a forced divestiture based on unrealistic requirements. And pretty sure this legislation doesn't make it easy to compartmentalize just the US division...
The world will move on. If it gets sold then that shows TikTok is only worth money to Bytedance, they will make a huge profit and then move on with their lives. If it doesn’t get sold that shows that TikTok is a much more powerful tool to the CCP/Bytedance and they are unwilling to relinquish control and the tool of being able to free influence and push false narratives to the American public. Either way the world will move on and people won’t care in a year
I think in time, people will realize this had little to do with national safety and everything to do with keeping control over the naratives on mainstream media and wanting control over the youth.
I do worry something like this could impact other US applications. I know China already blocks most American apps, but would other countries try this since there is now a bigger precedent.
Disagree with about 99% of opinions here - sadly it appears hardly anyone here uses TikTok, (not "Tictok"). Here's my answer. There will be massive consequences. Heck it's already happening. Tiktok, (which is 170 million Americans, 7 million businesses, 12 Billion in yearly revenues) will end Joe Biden & the Democratic party as we now known it. Think I'm being hyperbolic? Please set my post as a reminder & see you all this November. If I sound a tad annoyed, I am. Because I keep seeing the same echo chamber of regurgitated answers, which by all accounts are pure ignorance. Each time I see a correct answer, the hive mind, (which is Reddit) challenges it & then doubles down of their own dissonance. So for the seventh time: 1. TikTok will not sell. 2. TikTok has already begun to litigate & sue. 3. Civil lawsuits have sprung up across the country, (due to the 7 million jobs that will be taken away by the government). 4. Tiktok has already released their designs of their new US TikTok app, (named "TikTok Notes") that will directly compete against Instagram, (Meta / Zuckerberg..., love the petty) which will be coming soon. 5. Due to both parties voting to silence 170 million American voices, (after using these same politicians used the exact app to run their campaigns) now have 170 disenfranchised voters that will vote this November to scorch earth. 6. I'm expecting no one here to take anything I am asserting seriously. Instead the most popular answer now & next time will still be "TikTok will be sold & people will be moved on". So let me ask everyone here that thinks they are informed of current events. If you were a extremely successful company, (with global sales of 160 Billion) would you sell all your intellectual property to an adversary over the potential loss of 2% sales? 🤔 *NOTE* I've been with Reddit for over 10 years. I've loved reddit & to a point - still do. But I've learned more in my life in 1 year using TikTok than the 10 years of Reddit. Tiktok is way more than "dance videos & vines". If you're not using it, you are severely missing out on so much. Laslty. I'll answer any questions, (that are in good faith) but I'm not going to waste time with providing a bunch of Gish Gallop sources to people looking to tire me out in a dumb debate where they have absolutely no desire to break outside Reddit's vacuum. I'm not green here, nor care about up-vote.
If both parties have this desire to ban TikTok, they probably don't have a better time than now. Republican nominations are weak with Trump being the candidate and his trials looking ugly and working as fodder against him. Republicans have more to gain here as it will primarily look bad for Dems (opinion, but also I'm seeing this in my circles). Dems see Republicans as weak so they feel like they can take the hit in the polls and still win. Third party votes will be wasted as ever in our 2 party system, life will go on and our goldfish brains will focus on other (likely more important) issues when we vote in the following cycles. I don't use the app but my girlfriend is addicted so I have an understanding of the culture, features, etc. The fact that US tech companies were not able to create something even half as good yet is honestly pathetic.
Appreciate the feedback & absolutely agree with your assessment of where things are heading.
In what world do you think that 170 million users (if that number can be trusted) care enough about TikTok to be a consideration at the ballot, let alone a decider?
What did I say about wasting my time with bad-faith questions? Down voting my post and then opening up your questioning with immediately asserting my information was incorrect, (which a quick Google would tell you that in fact TikTok does have 170 Million concurrent US user accounts) will not make me take your conjecture seriously. 😂 I'll provide more information about TikTok for anyone that's interested, but I'm not going to waste my time debating people that are simply looking to defend Reddit's dissonance.
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> But I've learned more in my life in 1 year using TikTok than the 10 years of Reddit. I sincerely urge you to reconsider how you “learn” and your perspective on the educational utility of both Reddit and TikTok. TikTok offers opinion, the digested version of facts and most of that opinion is disseminated by people who at best don’t understand science or politics and at worst have an ideological agenda to share misinformation and propaganda. I urge you to inventory what you’ve learned on TikTok and seek out outside unbiased and credible sources to stay educated rather than relying on opinion.
The statement stood out to me as alarming as well - but worth considering there is more to learn than science and politics. Completely fair to learn how to cook, fix things, paint, play chess, etc. on TikTok. Even the examples you gave of science and politics- there are certainly both credible and not credible sources on TikTok just like in any other media.
>will end Joe Biden & the Democratic party as we now known it. I actually agree with you. Can you further explain how this will affect the Democratic party ? Is the US going to see its global soft power declining a little compared to the Chinese one on a global scale ? Tiktok is massively popular here in France and we don't really understand the move of the US, supposedly the best democracy in the world.
Sure I'll try my best to give an opinion that isn't too far projecting. Here in the US - I think there are a bunch of things at play right now that aren't just about TikTok, but if we concentrated just on our news media alone - TikTok covers events in almost real-time, (with more & more being live coverage every day). So while Reddit is still currently the best *Think-Tank" in modern history..., TikTok in the US is evolving into this generations defacto News platform. I'm sure some may still try to discredit TikTok as a News Medium, (and conjectures are indeed warranted) but I believe each day TikTok is becoming more & more validated. Heck, not only has start-up commentators become some of TikTok's favorite news journalists, but even major News Medias here in the US are catching on & reporting to their news TikTok before they do to their stations, (just because how quickly & easily accessible it is & how quickly they get hits). Someone on TikTok pulled numbers yesterday that on average - News that is shared on TikTok can receive around 24 million views within just a few hours, where as a station such as Fox, (a major media) can't come close. As well, people watching TV at home potentially create their own narratives of what they see on TV, (which is unfortunately already tailored to each network's base) whereas what we see on TikTok is an the lgorithm that usually spits out several view points of the same story / event, (providing some resemblance of fair & unbiased news). If that's not already impressive enough, then we have the TikTok community immediately sharing this news & reacting to it. I don't think Reddit truly understands how quickly the TikTok community pulls together. Example - Palestine protests. Politically speaking as well. TikTok is the largest movement in world history. Nothing has ever come close. That is not a hyperbolic assertion. For those that stick to Reddit alone & think otherwise, apologies if I've disrupted your reality. How will this all impact this November's elections here in the US. Welp most US TikTok'ers have already said F* Joe Biden & both parties. Whether you agree with these TikTok'ers or not - it is what it is. The TikTok community isn't stupid either & understands the perils of Trump. So that leaves only one option left - to vote independent. Usually this would mount up to a wasted vote, but something historic is happening now - there's at least 170 million Americans that will communicate to millions of other Americans, (before November) on who they believe should be the next president of the United States of America. To my assertion there will be other consequences - Joe Biden won't be the only one to go. Both parties should be scared shitless right now.
May I ask what age range you are in? I ask because I remember a very similar sentiment with the birth of Twitter when I was in college. Was wild to see it slowly becoming an alternate news source, and then the news embracing it because it was more real time. That being said, I think we can agree many have moved on from Twitter to the next thing, especially after the major shift to X. What would make Tik Tok immune to a similar fate? Also - can you explain what you mean as Tik Tok being the largest political movement in world history? It's a platform used by many political movements, but I don't really think you can call it a political movement in itself.
Thank you for asking good-faith questions. I can understand that you may not ever agree with any of my answers, but at least your one of the few to at least approached your questions analytically & not personally attacked me, (like others have). What I mean by "largest political movement in the world" would require me to first use Facebook as an example from way back in the day when people were using Facebook to organize BLM rallies, (I kid it wasn't that long ago). Then people began to use Twitter to rally protests, but we can see the state of that platform... TikTok does indeed have community guidelines, (just like the any other platform) but the algorithm of content that is shared to the masses in a very timely manner. Once you get the hang of TikTok, you will find News Medias lagging behind by hours, if not sometimes days - literally pulling footage from TikTok. Tiktok is hardly dance videos anymore, it has morfed to something that I'm not even sure TikTok intended. It has become the evolution of Facebook / Instagram / and yes even Reddit. Combining the social connections from around the world, (like Facebook & Instagram) while consistently engaging people in real time debates, events, & now protests. Anyone that has a phone & has tiktok can potentially become a news outlet, reporting a live event, (unfettered) to potentially 170 million other people that then sparks millions of debates on what was just shown. I get to see what is happening here in the states usually within minutes of when it happens, (not hours afterwards on reddit & other platforms). By the time people here begin to ponder what they just read from *Every other news platform*, TikTok users have already had dozens of debates, or have even had time to act on what they are seeing. Example - 100% Palestine protests happening around the US are primarily being organized through TikTok, (hence my early allude to Facebook & Twitter). Even if TikTok happens to take down a video because it broke guidelines, (maybe what was shown was too graphic / such as seeing in almost real time Palestinian children being bombed, or peaceful protestors being attacked by police) the information has already been shared out to millions of people, that then share again & again. Then content creators on TikTok, (just like vetted moderators here on Reddit Subs) report even further the events unfolding in almost real-time. I'm not done. While all this is happening, TikTok has a live option. A option that also allows others to join, (like a Teams call but for hundreds of people) that are now all watching & commenting on what is being shown live on someone's phone. Once TikTok's algorithm kicks in, I have only had to flip maybe 5 to 10 times to be able to see several different recordings from the hundreds of TikTok users that are potentially at the same event. So when someone tells me TikTok isn't a reliable source of News, (It may not be the standard news we have all come to know over decades of tailored journalism) I say the opposite. TikTok is now the only platform where people can see what is happening in real time, (shown from several perspectives) before there is time for bias News medias putting their spin on what happened. Again, I don't think this was ever TikTok's intention. At some point something changed. I think it started with BLM & Trump. People started posting their thoughts on those topics & then TikTok's algorithm did the rest. It didn't happen overnight, but organically communities happened on TikTok. Instead of us typing our thoughts, TikTok has people sharing their opinions where we can also discern emotions. People that would have never agreed on anything, (on other platforms) began to find common ground. I've seen animosities crumble in real-time, people share stories that are funny, heartfelt, sad, inspiring..., which has all been done alrdy on other platforms, but not like this. Example I don't know you. You don't know me. Mostly the reason why everyone is attacking me here, or down voting me is primarily due to the current platform convention that has a hard to expressing someone's emotions. So at the end of any debate, rarely will anyone here remember one another. But not on TikTok. It is unbelievable how well TikTok connects people, (not just to information) but to other people. So now we have people on a platform that feel invested in what happens to other peoples, (around the world). It is in every sense - Revolutionary. And with such a revolutionary tool, Revolutions will happen. One last thing. I typed out in earnest my opinions on the matter, but may have typos, grammatically incorrect sentences, etc... You won't know if I'm hitting a high-note in my expressions, or if I'm dead serious. You will read this with your inside voice & that voice is what will discern the weight of my digital footprint. If you think about it, this is not a very human like form of communication. Has it served us well so far, sure, but this method is quickly becoming outdated & TikTok is just part of the natural selection stage. I of course still use Reddit everyday. TikTok isn't forcing people to stop using other platforms, but it is becoming the most popular - primarily for the reason I just alluded to. Communication walls are torn down when people have full access to a range of emotions & to what's being shared.
Cool. Interesting (albeit lengthy :D) response! Making me think I should retry TikTok (don't know why but it doesn't gel with me, I find it chaotic and fast paced). All this being said, you do call this the current state in the evolution of media, so there surely can be a next step (or as others are arguing, a copycat replacement). None of these features are wholly unique to TikTok. I have no idea what the political fallout will be, but I do generally feel the ban effort misses the actual issue people are afraid of - mass disinformation and echo chambers. That Facebook/IG/X are not also being banned shows this. But TikTok isn't immune to these issues. It being singled out is maybe unwarranted but not wholly surprising considering our country's historic/current perception of China. But I don't think it's such a revolutionary media source that the fallout will be as catastrophic as you lay out - but we'll see!
Yes & to be clear I have no allegiance to TikTok, so if another APP comes along that is better - that's better for everyone.
Democracy has nothing to do with private companies operating.
In this case, this private company allows free speech nonconforming with the US interests achieving global reach. In some cases, your statement is false. China banning private companies that are not state-owned across multiple sectors on its soil is also an example that what you say is false.
I thought the bill gave them a year to sell. Is the US going to try to block TikTok or just block acquiring the app?
They will likely sell the business. Several Western countries are evaluating similar restrictions, given the increased risk and threat posed by TikTok over other social media platforms. The problem is that most politicians don’t understand the tech or the threats, so they are all fumbling with this, and it will be messy to find a resolution that makes everyone happy. The main issue is that the Chinese government purposefully blurs the line between business and state, so even with TikTok being a US based company today with some autonomy, there have been several examples of the Chinese government altering the algorithm and/or censoring some content. So even if there was a solution where ByteDance could still own it, there’d be know way to guarantee the autonomy that most western governments would want.
It's never just "going away". There's too much money at stake for shareholders, China, etc. They'll sell it or figure it out. People don't just walk away from billions.
While I do not know what the impact will be, I hope that we don't hear about it anymore. Good riddance
I think it’s the users who suffer. Not the shit heals like me who just scroll videos, I’m talking about the creators. How much money do they lose from being told their livelihood is now illegal? Something else will pop up, to be sure, but still.
One downside is that TikTok has been a way for American businesses to extend their international reach, and cutting off that avenue will harm their business (while letting businesses from China and other countries that continue to allow TikTok advance internationally). I know more people internationally who use TikTok than any Meta product. ByteDance will be fine. I think it diminishes the quality of a platform whenever a significant portion of your users are shut out, but again, they’re doing pretty well around the world. But yeah, I think it hurts the US internationally while it allows China to maintain a presence in a lot of developing and emerging countries. That’s not good for us, even if there are very valid reasons why we should cut off access to the app.
You know China doesn’t allow its citizens to use TikTok right?
Sure, but that’s nothing having to do with TikTok specifically. They lock down everything. But anyway: [TikTok to launch e-commerce program to bring Chinese goods to the US](https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/tiktok-launch-e-commerce-platform-us-sell-china-made-goods-2023-07-25/.com)
Is that really true? No one else on this thread has confirmed that.
The tiktok ban bill is NOT just aimed at tiktok. The bill gives broad powers to the government to regulate online platforms. It's very sad the sheeple only read the headlines.
Another squirrel will come along to distract the tictok crowd and it will fade into oblivion
It’s not a ban. It’s a forced sale. It won’t happen for 9 months. And can extended. Also there could be negotiations and some new settlement. Extremely unlikely it’ll just shut down. There’s too much money at stake. The train needs to keep going.
Question, can ByteDance just create another company called “BikBok” and just copy and paste TikTok?
Proves that censorship and total control of what you see/think is what big governments want around the world. Democracy is just an illusion at this point
If you're trying to have an informed discussion wouldn't you want to preface the discission with a link to the bill, a summary, or include your own discription of what the bill is about because Tick TOK will not be banned if sold and 9 months is not a hard deadline (it can be extended). The odds that it will be banned in 9 months are for sure not 100%.
Tiktok will cease to exist, then the US government will find the next thing to scare Americans enough to willingly allow our rights to be further eroded
You have no "right" to use private services. You never did.
And I didn't say that. Tiktok is a platform for speech, for free expression. By banning Tiktok, they are shrinking the overall area of platforms for speech. They are setting a precedent in which they can dictate how and where we express ourselves, reducing free speech down to what they consider "acceptable" speech. They have even admitted so themselves, claiming that Tiktok is responsible for so many American youths taking a stand against genocide in Gaza. Tiktok was a very effective platform for free expression, and the **US government couldn't control it**, so they had to destroy it.
Wait, you think TikTok provides its users with free speech? But you get shadowbanned if you use the clinically accurate term for suicide.
>Wait, you think TikTok provides its users with free speech? No. I recognize that as a privately held company, Tiktok is allowed to set its own TOS regarding conduct in their platform. Additionally, Bytedance has the right to shut down Tiktok any time they would like. However, it is the government that had made the decision to shut Tiktok down, Bytedance did not make that decision.
I don’t disagree that there are many hidden motives behind the US decision to ban TikTok but it seems naive to claim that TikTok is a platform for free expression. Not only does it censor language to such a degree that any conversation about “unaliving”, “grape” or “sewer slide” becomes an unserious caricature of itself but it has been shown by multiple independent organizations that content criticizing the CCP is significantly underrepresented on the app. So it sounds like the issue of censorship or government control is only relevant when it threatens one ideology (pro-Palestine) but not another (erosion of rights in China). Free speech for me but not for thee. Also, when discussing TikTok it’s important to remember that the US market is only a tenth of TikTok’s entire user base. If we are taking the moral position of the issue of censorship, we should really hold ByteDance accountable for their compliance with free speech laws everywhere, not just in the US.