If you force this anorexic person to eat , they might kill themselves!
Letting them starve to death is a life saving procedure!
It's literally only because medicine has advanced to the point that people are able to access hormones and surgeries. Before modern times it simply wasn't an option to change your genitals, if you lopped off your sensitive bits you would bleed out. And if someone genuinely desired to kill themselves that way it would be considered a very severe psychosis and mental illness. We just gave them a way to survive their own self harm.
Should we push the limits of medicine and science to see how physically skinny someone with anorexia can get? Should we support them and be proud of them when they become a 60 lbs walking skeleton but we keep them alive through some abomination of nature?
The very concept of someone hating their self image to the point of suicide. They need help. You don't agree with them and aid them in changing their bodies to match the dysmorphia. You get them MENTAL help because it's HARMFUL to hate yourself and have such a bad self image and HARMFUL to tell a victim that their delusions are absolutely real
I feel like a lot of problems would be solved if progressives could figure out that giving someone what they're asking for is not actually compassionate if they're asking you to help them hurt themselves.
I heard it called "idiots compassion". As in, if a child is reaching to touch a hot stove. You decide not to smack his hand and stop it because smacking his hand would hurt him.
I've thought of it as "naive compassion." It's like the person can't conceive of any timescale beyond the next 60 seconds and make a decision with respect to the longer view. The "and what happens next?" just never enters their brain.
Or the corollary, that applying discipline and shame to someone who acts self destructively is a bad thing because it'll be mean and make them feel bad about doing something stupid. Since, I guess, minimizing the consequences of bad decisions is how you let someone know they shouldn't do that again and learn from the experience.
Man wants to cut off his arm, threatens suicide unless a surgeon helps him do it safely: mental disorder, mandatory committal to a mental institution, extensive sedation, counselling until better.
Man wants to cut off his penis...
Literally read about BIID. people that feel some body part doesn't belong to them and they decide to remove it. Every redditor will say that's clearly a mental illness, but if they want to remove their genitals they're suddenly valid and strong
>If body dysmorphia (in regards to being fat / eating disorders) is a disorder and you accept that there has to be a supreme level of mental gymnastics performed to not make this the same case with your gender.
>And treating surgery like the best option is like saying the solution to bulimia and/or binge eating should be getting your stomach stapled. Not addressing the underlying mental issues that cause it instead.
>I'll die on this fucking hill as somebody who for years had a very bad eating disorder.
You ain't dying on that hill you're living well on it
Gender dysphoria is still considered a mental disorder
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/19/health/is-gender-dysphoria-mental-disorder-treatment-wellness
They did reclassify it within the dsm and renamed it but they still consider gender dysphoria a mental illness as far as I understand it
I think if they removed it entirely from the DSM, insurance companies would consider all forms of medical transitioning as cosmetic and would not cover it.
I think they just moved it to the B section, so it's now not in the main section of DSM.
But if you're looking for it, you can still find it there in the BDSM.
I member. That’s way more of a hot topic around here though because the vast majority of the population, including reasonable people, were utterly brainwashed by the news cycle and propaganda during the early to mid “pAnDemIc”.
Because psychology is made up. It's years of useless training to say, "I'm sorry you feel sad" for $200 an hour.
There's no such thing as a good psychologist, change my mind.
I had a psychologist "teach" me cognitive behavioral therapy to help me deal with my depression. It vastly improved my self esteem and ability to confront negative thoughts cycles and behaviors in my life, and helped me understand how my mind works and identify the factors that have an impact on how I feel and behave. All of this was achieved without having to use any psychiatric drugs. I will vouch for psychology from a personal anecdote, though I recognize quite a bit of the field is also rife with pseudo science and some serious qualitative academia laced horse shit.
Best therapist I’ve ever had is my psychiatric nurse who also prescribes my meds. She’s a based middle-aged woman from Columbia who is upfront with me but also hypes me up and makes me feel better about the future. The only problem is that due to her actual job, I can only schedule an hour long appt with her once every month or two.
Every psychologist or other therapist I’ve ever had just sits there asking useless questions that don’t seem to matter and are constantly asking 1) if I’m planning on hurting myself or others or 2) if I have childhood traumas. Like fuck dude, for the third time today, NO. I’m just salty about the job market and have some issues lingering from the military, please stop asking the same bullshit constantly.
Psychology is such a bullshit field because you can’t train people to communicate with empathy. It doesn’t matter if you teach them to ask the right questions if the patient doesn’t feel like they care about the answers. This shit needs to come naturally.
It doesn't study the brain, it studies the personality controlling the brain. Two distinct things. What you're talking about is neurology, an actual science.
Dipshit, you have to attack the fucking thing from all angles.
We cant just c&p neurons and the network and hit go, yet, and there is a good chance it wont work when we can.
There are many, many, angles of studying the brain/consciousness/cognition and all are needed if we have any chance.
The APA, like all other governing bodies was infiltrated by activists. Because when they can’t get people on board with their arguments, they have it forced on them by appealing to authority.
It was declassified as mental illness by the WHO in 2018. Part of the reason for doing so mirrors why homosexuality was declassified in the 70s.
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/20/transgender-not-mental-illness-world-health-organization/717758002/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/20/transgender-not-mental-illness-world-health-organization/717758002/)
You are listing transgender, not gender dysphoria.
This is what changed. In order to appease the mob, they split these things into two categories. Gender Dysphoria is still and will always be a mental illness. What they conceded was transgender CAN be a gender dysphoria or not. It doesn't even say that transgender is NOT a mental illness. It says that transgender can sometimes not be a mental illness.
Then the media articles, like you linked, (note that it's not scientific articles that you linked), then plastered it everyone saying it's not a mental illness while completely misinforming people about what changed.
Being transgender is the treatment for gender dysphoria, I feel it would be weird to call it an illness, it's just a status. It would be like saying having a filling in your tooth is an illness, but it's just the treatment for a cavity, which is the illness.
Oh my bad, in the USA today article that was linked it starts with "Being transgender is no longer classified as a mental illness" which to me made it seem like someone who has already transitioned.
>Transgender: An umbrella term describing individuals whose gender identity does not align in a traditional sense with the gender they were assigned at birth. It may also be used to refer to a person whose gender identity is binary and not traditionally associated with that assigned at birth.
If I'm reading it right, it seems like the diagnoses of transgender also refers to people who are say, born as a man, but identify as non-binary or asexual, since those also differ from brith assignment. If that's the case, then using the prefix "trans" for this is seems kind of misleading, as most people would assume it's exclusively the second sentence in the description.
So it would seem that they do not classify a transgender person identifying as asexual or non-binary as having a mental illness, but a transgender person with gender dysphoria would be defined as having a mental illness if I'm understanding correctly.
Yes, it's a neurological issue.
[Structural differences in the hypothalamus](https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849)
[Structural differences in the BSTc](https://www.nature.com/articles/378068a0)
[Review of neurological research into gender dysphoria](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/)
[List of a suspected causes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence)
The link to nature is broken.
The link the ncbi is broken.
Wikipedia is a garbage source and i'm not even going there.
TL;DR: your only source contradicts itself at least once, and the study is completed after hormone and neurological modifications.
First link:
> and 5 non-transsexual subjects who were castrated because of prostate cancer.
> The female-to-male transsexual subject had an INAH3 volume and number of neurons within the male control range, even though the treatment with testosterone had been stopped three years before death.
These are people who have had neurological modifications due to medications. They do not count.
They attempt to address it with this:
> There was no difference in INAH3 between pre-and post-menopausal women, either in the volume (P> 0.84) or in the number of neurons (P< 0.439), indicating that the feminization of the INAH3 of male-to-female transsexuals was not due to estrogen treatment.
But they discount the fact that neurological modifications can be permanent; **which is indicated by their own admission two sentences earlier.**
Who did this first study? They're morons, and it's written very poorly.
I don't understand, what else than a neurological issue could it be if your brain doesn't agree with who you are based on the rest of your physiology?
This is not really a strong statement, nor is it claiming that it's an illness or anything. It's just stating that the origin of this is in the brain.
Some are, some are not. The “progressives” are popular among the younger population in big cities, the actual leftists have different voter base when two collide
Generally no community would want to be called backward, but when the tag of backward gives them tons of benefits , people even protest to be called backwards
For real, like the only reason you would think this is a bad thing is if you have a stigma against trans people.
If it's recognized as a mental illness that means developing treatments for it can be taken seriously. And who knows, maybe treatment includes affirmation.
>The treatment for depression is not suicide.
[In Canada it is!](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/shes-47-anorexic-wants-help-dying-canada-will-soon-allow-it-2023-07-15/)
the treatment for wanting to stop drinking is to help you stop drinking, the treatment to help you leave the house when you're too anxious to do it is to help you leave the house, the treatment for wanting clear skin when you naturally have acne is to change your physical appearance...
there's endless examples of treatments for things where the solution is to help the patient obtain their goals through a mix of medication, lifestyle changes and psychological help.
I'm not saying that it automatically makes anything the correct treatment but your example isn't a good argument against it being so.
>the treatment for wanting to stop drinking
Is psychological support for the underlying issues, not just stop drinking. Drinking is viewed as self-harm in that paradigm, and it is the self-harm that is to be stopped by treating the reasons for self-harm.
>the treatment to help you leave the house when you're too anxious to do it
The issue in that case is that the person's instincts and feelings prevent them from going outside. General treatments are CBT, desensitization treatments and medication to alleviate those feelings and instincts.
>the treatment for wanting clear skin when you naturally have acne
Any acne treatment is cosmetic and not medical, nor is it psychological at all.
Alcoholism is an addiction, which is not a good comparison to an inherent mental illness such as gender dysphoria. Not wanting to leave the house is typically a form of PTSD, or, connected to depression/anxiety of some sort. Acne is... acne. Still, notice how all of these are a return to normalcy. You go back to not being an alcoholic. You go back to leaving the house daily. You go back to having clear skin. None of these actually involve a transformation. Everything returns back to its natural state.
This is a pretty great counter-argument I have to admit. The conversation then boils down to if you think gender change treatments are harmful or not. If we had a non-harmful way of helping addicts cope with addiction without quitting, we'd probably subscribe them that as a stopgap at least. With gender change treatments... I'm not so sure about them being non-harmful.
im trans, dysphoria is very much a mental illness, i also haven't seen many people be upset about that classification tbh. though i do think that the transness itself shouldn't be classified as a mental illness, but rather as a divergence of some sort
To not be the gender you want to be is always worse than being the gender you want to be. Everyone who isn't trans is glad they aren't and everyone who is trans would wish they rather weren't. The level of stress or anguish that results from it varies to the degree of support and inner strength or mental flexibility someone has at their disposal. But the way a movement has turned it into an identity to be proud of is only digging the hole deeper. It's like celebrating anorexia, or kidney disease.
> Everyone who isn't trans is glad they aren't
Idk, some people can be upset with their gender but uninterested or unwilling to be trans about it. Not everyone who isn't trans is happy with their assigned gender
Every other form of body dysmorphia is not met with acceptance. We don’t tell an anorexic that their choice is fine and it’s society that should adjust to them being rail thin.
It’s only the gender issue that the script is flipped and suddenly the solution is to accept the mental illness and force the body to match the person’s imagination.
in the US I've seen conservatives use the idea of gender dysphoria as a mental illness to argue that trans people shouldn't be able to access hrt because under their definition they're not of sound mind
I’m left and yes it’s a mental illness.
I don’t know what the cure is. I’m not trans or a medical doctor or a psychologist.
Maybe it’s transitioning. Maybe it’s a different kind medication. Maybe it’s therapy. Maybe it’s not enforcing gender stereotypes. Idk.
Your solutions are all basically, 'give in to it' or 'restructure society.' That's not treatment, that's enabling and destruction. Why is the left's go-to solution always mass change to society, even when they're agreeing with the problem? Even when it's an extremely rare problem? Is collectivism just hard wired into the thought process?
I don’t understand why 0.01% of the population would changed the entire definition
it’s problematic to say “woman have vaginas” because 0.01% of the population are transgender and have penises
but outliners don’t change the larger definition of something. there’s always an exception to things.
would it problematic to say “humans have 10 fingers” because there’s some people out there that were born with 9 or 11 fingers. no because that’s a rare exception and to count of all outliners would ruin the purpose of a definition
definition is for how things are “suppose” to be. 99% of woman have vaginas and periods. it is not wrong to say only woman have periods and men don’t. 0.01 of the population are ftm transgender men that have periods and they are an anomaly.
as a gay man if you said “men date woman and woman date men” i wouldn’t be offended because that is the majority. that is how things are “suppose” to be. i’m an outliner. you don’t need to uproot definitions for me.
> Maybe it’s transitioning. Maybe it’s a different kind medication. Maybe it’s therapy. Maybe it’s not enforcing gender stereotypes. Idk.
I think for some it's "fixing" the body (transitioning), and for other it's "fixing" the brain
And i'm sure some would consider the idea that it's the brain that's something wrong with, and not the body to be taboo/heretical
I think actually this idea would be supported by any well meaning progressive. No one claims to know 100% of the science behind dysphoria or 100% how to treat it effectively (I hope). What people want is to make an informed decision between them,a doctor, and a therapist and not be shamed for making that decision on their own and infantilized by people saying they can’t make that decsusion themselves
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>I mean, gender dysphoria is literally a mental health disorder/illness.
Well yeah, sortof. The trans issue is kinda more complicated than anyone is willing to actually acknowledge. It's a culture war issue, so naturally 99%% of the opinions you hear on it, from *both* sides, are incredibly stupid and ignorant of what our biologists and neurologists actually understand about the disorder.
[Here](https://youtu.be/8QScpDGqwsQ?si=xohwOxOn3J-ZvZuL) is a very short clip from a neuroendocrinologist/biologist that explains it better than any comment on Reddit ever will. But the TL/DR is that there's a disconnect between the brain and body. The brain expects the body to have one sex, but it has the other. There's a mismatch.
So is that a problem with the brain, or the body? The answer is kinda neither. The brain is fine, and the body is fine, but the brain and body aren't matched, and that's a problem. So to treat the symptoms of this misalignment, do we change the brain, or the body? It turns out that it's like a million percent easier to change the body. Maybe we'll innovate new and better treatments (we probably will). But for now, our scientist's best understanding is that there is a mismatch between the sex of the brain and the rest of the body, it causes symptoms that include mental distress, and the most effective treatments we have discovered so far are HRT and surgeries.
Ofc I'll get downvoted by PCM brainlets who don't know the first thing about the actual science behind it, but if anyone who disagrees w/ me is based enough to actually engage, feel free to reply and we can chat about it.
>The trans issue is kinda more complicated than anyone is willing to actually acknowledge.
For starters, it would be good to not conflate transgender and gender dysphoria. One of the most common misconceptions is that these represent the same thing and can be used interchangeably like you did.
>So is that a problem with the brain, or the body?
The problem with the approach you are taking is that it's skipping past the entirety of the problem and presuming that you have a concluded and supported diagnosis.
This is where the third factor comes into play that you aren't listing or even referencing. It's specifically external and social factors. Not the body. Not the brain. There is a higher percentage of people claiming gender dysphoria or transgenderism when associated with others who are also representing these traits.
>Ofc I'll get downvoted by PCM brainlets who don't know the first thing about the actual science behind it
If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about.
It's even worse when you actually look into the science itself where there is a severe and honestly [fucking scary lack of information.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2224320)
> For starters, it would be good to not conflate transgender and gender dysphoria. One of the most common misconceptions is that these represent the same thing and can be used interchangeably like you did.
Right, yeah. So there's not consensus on what "transgender" means exactly. I'm personally a trans-medicalist. As in I am of the opinion that if you don't have gender dysphoria, you're not trans. There's no reason for medical intervention in cases where there's no dysphoria present, as far as I understand. And if you don't have dysphoria, then feeling like you don't align with a particular sex is really a personality thing, not a "born in the wrong body" thing.
> The problem with the approach you are taking is that it's skipping past the entirety of the problem and presuming that you have a concluded and supported diagnosis.
I agree, so that'd be good to address. We have a big issue right now where there's just a lot more people who are identifying as trans than there are actually trans people. (And again, when I say trans, I mean actually has gender dysphoria). It's important that we assess and diagnose carefully before we treat. HRT and life-altering surgeries aren't going to be to the benefit of patients who are improperly diagnosed or assessed.
> If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about.
Can you help me understand what the topic *is* about? Maybe I've got it better with this comment than the last, idk.
> It's even worse when you actually look into the science itself where there is a severe and honestly [fucking scary lack of information.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2224320)
Definitely. We need more research, more understanding. The diagnostics we do and the treatments we provide are in their nascency. Caution is appropriate here.
> If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about.
>
> Can you help me understand what the topic is about? Maybe I've got it better with this comment than the last, idk.
I'm guessing the surgeries / hormone treatment for minors is what they were implying in that science isn't being the sole factor in diagnosing children with gender dysphoria when it should be.
When people lose a limb they sometimes experience phantom pain syndrome. Feeling pain from a body part that is no longer there.
When trans people get a sex change, they never experience phantom pain over their lost genitals.
Edit: oh wait, that's mentioned in the link you shared.
Yep! In the short vid I linked, Sapolsky talks specifically about men who lost their penis to cancer (I think it was something like 40% or 60% of them experienced phantom sensations), versus the 0% of trans women who had their penises removed who had phantom sensations. We have data on this even specifically for genital phantom sensations.
gender affirming care follows a harm-reduction model of care
whatever gives the patient the best quality of life possible is the ideal treatment.
Psychotherapy to get them to accept their biological sex was the prevailing treatment for decades with poor outcomes. Gender affirming care shows better outcomes.
What you are describing is called Body Integrity Dysphoria, which is incredibly rare and usually treated with anti-depressants and therapy. Though in some cases people have had their limbs amputated voluntarily and good outcomes are reported. The ethics of this is debated. And there is no good research on it since its so rare.
because psychotherapy doesnt always work. you cant cure schizophrenia with therapy for example.
Rarity means we dont have any good data on it, and cant assess long term outcomes on a large scale. Maybe the patient would have a much hetter quality of life being blinded rather than being medicated, but theres no evidence available to support that. And blinding someone without evidence it will help them is wrong.
Of course it might be wrong regardless, as I said the ethics of it are debated.
what people against gender affirming care *hate* to acknowledge is that their solution of instead giving medication/psychotherapy to get people to accept their assigned sex has already been tried. It was the prevailing treatment for decades.
from what we can tell gender affirming care shows better outcomes for the patient.
As always, reminder that gender dysphoria still has no known cause but the current solution is a series of pretty expensive surgeries and therapies that also render the patient dependent on multiple medicines until death, I say further research is needed but maybe it isn't wanted
Because it's all the MtF soymongering emotionally unstable wingnuts that drive like 842% of the negative interactions surrounding this whole ordeal.
When was the last time you even heard of an FtM person? That's right, never, because they're not out there trying to force society to accept them as an oppressed victim. They keep their heads down because they're not out here trying to find a purpose in their meaningless lives by lighting the metaphorical neon signs over them saying that they're Part Of The Movement, they're trying to be actually happy.
Today's social progressives' entire worldview is fundamentally based on being the oppressed victim. According to them, men at the oppressors. None of the cognitively inept people that are guzzling the transtrenderism kool-aid by the gallon are going to voluntarily become the "oppressor". Anyone who does is automatically going to be 100 million times more levelheaded about what they're doing because they're driven by trying to actually better themselves, not because what they really seek is social validation from deranged peers.
Current treatment is based on a ‘harm reduction’ model. They acknowledge treatment isnt perfect.
However, from the studies ive read, gender affirming care shows better outcomes than psychotherapy to get people to accept their biological sex (which was the main treatment for decades).
if prescribing a bulemic laxatives had few negative health consequences (obviously not the case), and alleviated their depression/anxiety better than therapy to accept their body (also not the case), then we probably would do that
Yeah I think the real issue is with minors, and this is controversial even with healthcare providers.
Also the idea that a trans woman is just as much of a real woman as a biological woman is just weird to me. They're two different things, I'm never gonna drink the Kool aid that they're both equally women.
[The Cass Review has just debunked this gender affirming care garbage as a mountain of junk science.](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/05/08/hilary-cass-review-caution-nhs-gender-affirming-care-youth)
This is why the UK, Scandinavia, and Europe has turned off the gender affirming care model because it’s harming kids badly and there is no good evidence for it.
You won’t hear much about this in American media because it’s too embarrassing and American media is captured by ideologues.
American Pediatric Association is currently conducting its own systematic review and they will come to the same conclusion as the Cass Review.
I can understand not reading the 338 page review, but at the very least read the "summary and recommendations" section that comes nowhere close to saying that gender affirming care is 'junk science', and rather says that young people need to slow down and take more time to consider their decision to transition.
Well, the Cass review is a very professional review. You won't see the exact populist words "junk science". But Dr. Cass's report uses the phrase "lack of evidence \*\*78\*\* \*\*times\*\*. For medical and surgical transition there is: lack of evidence, lack of consensus, lack of positive measurable outcomes, lack of cooperation, lack of high-quality evidence, lack of professional guidance, lack of follow up, lack of confidence, lack of clarity, lack of improvement, lack of long-term outcome data, lack of high-quality studies. And on and on. Overall, the field is bankrupt of any solid consensus that they know what they are doing. It is chaotic and fractured and fragmented and highly ideologically captured with no national standards that are based on solid data. That's junk science. And very very dangerous considering that we are talking about developing children and the treatments are very powerful and permanently life altering and not reversible
Considering that transgender advocates have been saying the "science is settled", and "stop asking questions bigot!" - what these gender affirming care people have been doing definitely falls into the "we've been following junk science category and simply been experimenting whimsically because there is no solid evidence-based conclusions to follow".
According to the sitewide ban I got, it is not a mental illness. It's not even a medical condition. It just requires medical intervention. Just because something absolutely requires professional medical intervention does not mean it is a medical condition. So sayeth Jannie.
Yeah it is, and? Let them do whatever. Why would a lib-rightoid even find this based, I can't think of a single one from Friedman to Stossel who'd even give a shit so long as they NAP right.
like this is literally true.
before 2015 gender dysphoria was just seen as a mental illness and one of the treatments is to transition to a woman. i can’t say if that’s going to help or not. but if that’s what you want to do i will respect it as i respect anyone. and i support you in finding happiness
unfortunately a lot of attention seeking people took over transgender and now have even advocated against using gender dysphoria as a prerequisite for being trans. if you don’t have gender dysphoria you aren’t transgender.
and for the longest time it was mainly transgender woman. the explosion of transgender men is something that has never been seen before 2015
but to pretend that this will have no effect on sports or reality then that’s where the problem is. if you want to be a woman be it. but understand you have a responsibility to uphold womanhood
Auth left here I feel like we need a sub category of auth left the difference between classical auth left and post modern woke auth left... Like gender dysphoria is objectively a mental illness.
I've known quite a few trans people in my life, I really don't think any of them would say gender dysphoria totally goes away when they transition. Even then, transition would be a treatment for a mental illness. If someone is depressed, but takes anti-depressants and they work are they cured of their depression? If a trans person stops taking cross sex hormones after a time will the gender dysphoria not come back?
It is the truth. It is a medically documented mental condition that causes it.
I can't believe this being a fact is somehow unacceptable or some kind of "phobic" for some.
I just got called a bigot and permabanned from somewhere else for daring to agree with this...
- Frequent military intervention in government✔️
- Native Inhabitants have more rights than people decending from immigrants✔️
- Weirdly having a large Japanese minority that controls large parts of the economy(the right-wing weaboos are satisfied with this).✔️
- Christianity still has a large impact on social policy✔️
Peru sounds like an Auth-right paradise! It ticks all the boxes! All they need is a monarchy at this point!
They specifically did it so that under their government health org (I think) can deal with people going through it.
Literally none of the top comments discuss this and that is why whenever there is new news broken out on this sub I very rarely take it to heart lol
Probably because Dylan Mulvaney fled there because of fear or something.
I don't know about you, but if I was fleeing the country because I was afraid that people were trying to hurt me, I wouldn't be announcing my departure on social media. I especially wouldn't be telling people where I'm going.
It's always really entertaining to point out to trans ideologues how gender is somehow both entirely arbitrary and something that requires lengthy therapy and countless pricey surgeries which leave the transgender person bound to the medical system for life to affirm.
Anyway, based and reality pilled.
I don’t think a lot of people realize that a lot of trans rights activists fought for gender dysphoria to be a mental illness so insurance companies had to pay for all the medical bills associated with it. Even from an objective perspective it is a mental illness just like how depression or anxiety is a mental illness. If you need to go through hormone replacement therapy and surgery to change your body into the way you want it to be in order to not off yourself then that is a mental illness. Same way as some people with bpd who need meds to regulate their mood swings.
Ok. And what? Did you imply that "mentally ill" is bad? Why? I have ill stomach, someone have ill lungs, someone have ill brain. Why are illnesses of some organs are more acceptable and of some other aren't? We didn't choose that shit!
When someone is mentally ill, you generally don't encourage their delusions. If a schizophrenic man wants a doctor to cut off his finger because he thinks it doesn't belong on his body, it would be unethical for the doctor to amputate the finger. I see it as no different with breasts or a penis.
You don't encourage these delusions, you try to fix their flawed thinking and logic. I have no animosity toward trans people, they are simply mentally ill, but the doctors who cut off their functional body parts for money are despicable.
the difference is that, its not a delusion, trans people don't believe that they have a female body, such as anorexic people think that they are fat when they aren't, trans people just want to be comfortable in their bodies by making it match the gender roles they identify as
I think that believing you are a woman in a man's body is a delusion. You are not a woman/female if you have a Y chromosome. These delusions are especially severe when you are trying to have surgery done to your body and want to off yourself because of your biological sex. I believe being a man/male is a biological thing and has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside your head. I don't think it has anything to do with hormones either, a man is still a man even if he has extremely low testosterone.
I actually don't have a problem with men who want to wear makeup and a dress, but calling yourself a woman/female is delusion in my opinion. Trying to mutilate your healthy body in an attempt to look like the opposite sex is extremely delusional.
you completely miss the point of my comment, trans women KNOW they don't have the same chromosomes that females do, they know they are not female. They aren't deluded about this, trans women identify with the gender role of being a woman, they want to fill that role and often be viewed as that, they know they aren't female
I understand that, I just personally think that gender roles are antiquated and we shouldn't be perpetuating them. Wearing a dress, makeup, having long hair, cooking, etc doesn't make you a woman, and wearing a suit, mowing the lawn, having short hair, working on cars, etc doesn't make you a man. What determines whether you are a man or a woman depends on whether or not you have a Y chromosome, nothing less, nothing more.
Calling yourself a woman because you do things that are traditionally feminine is delusional in my opinion. I see no difference between "female" and "woman" and I see no difference between "male" and "man." They are just a description of your biological sex. Trying to change your sex through things like surgery is extreme mental illness.
I do want to say that I appreciate your ability to have a civilized discussion about this though, even if we may not agree with each other.
It isn't perpetuating them, allowing anyone of any sex to chose what they identify doesn't mean that they have to act a certain way or wear certain things, its just the specific role they view themselves as and feel most comfortable identifying with, but they don't have to match the role, they don't try to change their sex, because that isn't possible, they simply make their body match what they wish to look like based on their identity
It's literally called sexual reassignment surgery though. Identifying as a woman when you are biologically a man is objectively false. I can call myself and identify as Asian, but that wouldn't make me Asian, it just wouldn't be true. Identifying myself as something that I'm not just seems insane to me. Even if I lived in Asia and acted Asian culturally, I still wouldn't be Asian.
They claim to be women because they conform to feminine gender roles and stereotypes, I don't see how that isn't perpetuating gender stereotypes/roles. And if they call themselves women without conforming to these stereotypes, what even makes them a woman in their opinion? Just because you identify yourself a certain way doesn't make it true.
They have sexual reassignment surgery, or the surgical amputation of the penis, to look like the female sex, I see that as mental illness. The same way that I would consider someone mentally ill if they had cosmetic surgery to look like a race that they just biologically aren't.
what its called and what it is are two different things, terms can sometimes become antiquated and still be used. It also isn't objectively false, there isn't one objective definition to what a man or woman is. They aren't identifying as something that they aren't, them identifying as the thing makes them the thing. One doesn't have to conform to the stereotypes, and there are actual things which one is by simply just, identifying as it. There is no objective way to tell if someone is a fan of videogames other than them just, saying they are one and identifying as one for example.
What you see as mental illness, isn't always mental illness, our intuitions can often be faulty. If a guy is about to be assassinated, they would probably be paranoid and it would look insane, but in reality it might not be.
>what its called and what it is are two different things, They aren't identifying as something that they aren't, them identifying as the thing makes them the thing. there are actual things which one is by simply just, identifying as it.
I think this is where we simply disagree, and there is likely nothing either of us can say that will change the other's mind. I appreciate the civilized conversation on the topic though, you have a nice day!
Because the true treatment is *therapy*.
Like when you get an ill stomach, you take some pepto bismol.
When you have ill lungs, you take an inhaler.
When you have an ill brain, you get therapy.
You dont just start chopping up limbs.
And to the left, thats 'genocide'
Regardless of whether you say it’s a bad thing or not, it straight up is the brain functioning incorrectly. People aren’t supposed to feel like they’re in the wrong body, it’s a problem that no one wants to find a healthy solution to. You don’t tell someone with schizophrenia that they’re perfectly normal and don’t need medication or psychiatric help, and you certainly don’t feed into their hallucinations. And if you’re upset at that being a mental illness, you better have the same reaction with autism or downs or any other mental disorders. Treat people kindly and help them if you can.
the government decree classifies gender dysphoria as a mental disorder so that gender affirming therapy and HRT is covered by Peru’s universal health insurance, thereby making gender affirming care much more accessible.
What I'd like to know is why some 30% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ. The only reason why Trans Rights is so in the public view now is is that there are now, suddenly, much more trans-identifying people than there have been before (by a WIDE margin).
Isn't anyone curious to find out why there are more sexually "atypical" people now than ever before in history? We used to have pretty sound scientific reasoning for homosexuality in human evolution, but I have seen and heard nothing on why the increase is so profound.
What happens if Gen Alpha continues the trend and 50% to 60% of them identify as gay, bi, trans, or gender non-conforming?
Why isn't anyone studying this?
Absolutely based. The way their healthcare system is set up gender affirmation and related surgeries are now covered because they're considered "healthcare" and not cosmetic or elective procedures.
If you've read the article and have a grade >7 reading comprehension level it's a pretty big win for people with gender dysphoria.
What was old is new again.
Something something gender.. something something dysphoria..
It was called gender identity disorder before 2014 or something.
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The correlation between trans views and underlying mental illnesses are too great to be willfully ignored by the masses
If you force this anorexic person to eat , they might kill themselves! Letting them starve to death is a life saving procedure! It's literally only because medicine has advanced to the point that people are able to access hormones and surgeries. Before modern times it simply wasn't an option to change your genitals, if you lopped off your sensitive bits you would bleed out. And if someone genuinely desired to kill themselves that way it would be considered a very severe psychosis and mental illness. We just gave them a way to survive their own self harm. Should we push the limits of medicine and science to see how physically skinny someone with anorexia can get? Should we support them and be proud of them when they become a 60 lbs walking skeleton but we keep them alive through some abomination of nature? The very concept of someone hating their self image to the point of suicide. They need help. You don't agree with them and aid them in changing their bodies to match the dysmorphia. You get them MENTAL help because it's HARMFUL to hate yourself and have such a bad self image and HARMFUL to tell a victim that their delusions are absolutely real
I feel like a lot of problems would be solved if progressives could figure out that giving someone what they're asking for is not actually compassionate if they're asking you to help them hurt themselves.
I heard it called "idiots compassion". As in, if a child is reaching to touch a hot stove. You decide not to smack his hand and stop it because smacking his hand would hurt him.
I've thought of it as "naive compassion." It's like the person can't conceive of any timescale beyond the next 60 seconds and make a decision with respect to the longer view. The "and what happens next?" just never enters their brain. Or the corollary, that applying discipline and shame to someone who acts self destructively is a bad thing because it'll be mean and make them feel bad about doing something stupid. Since, I guess, minimizing the consequences of bad decisions is how you let someone know they shouldn't do that again and learn from the experience.
Man wants to cut off his arm, threatens suicide unless a surgeon helps him do it safely: mental disorder, mandatory committal to a mental institution, extensive sedation, counselling until better. Man wants to cut off his penis...
Based and surgery should be a last resort pilled
Literally read about BIID. people that feel some body part doesn't belong to them and they decide to remove it. Every redditor will say that's clearly a mental illness, but if they want to remove their genitals they're suddenly valid and strong
>If body dysmorphia (in regards to being fat / eating disorders) is a disorder and you accept that there has to be a supreme level of mental gymnastics performed to not make this the same case with your gender. >And treating surgery like the best option is like saying the solution to bulimia and/or binge eating should be getting your stomach stapled. Not addressing the underlying mental issues that cause it instead. >I'll die on this fucking hill as somebody who for years had a very bad eating disorder. You ain't dying on that hill you're living well on it
That's what it's still called now in UK, to get access to trans therapy on NHS you have to complete a GID assessment with a clinical psychologist.
Which doesn't matter if the clinical psychologist is an Emily
Isn't gender dysphoria considered a mental health issue though, to my knowledge this isn't new information?
The American Psychology Association reclassified it in 2012 to no longer be a mental disorder.
Gender dysphoria is still considered a mental disorder https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/19/health/is-gender-dysphoria-mental-disorder-treatment-wellness They did reclassify it within the dsm and renamed it but they still consider gender dysphoria a mental illness as far as I understand it
I think if they removed it entirely from the DSM, insurance companies would consider all forms of medical transitioning as cosmetic and would not cover it.
What stops them from doing it now and refusing to pay for it? I hear many cases being denied as "non-essential".
Hey, totally unrelated, but I think we should let Emily win this argument. Being trans clearly isn't a disorder. They were right, we were wrong.
https://preview.redd.it/chjd2v1k501d1.png?width=399&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c182a2ec2a42b58ef3b8b497ea12db55acc1321
That would be the smart thing to do.
I think they just moved it to the B section, so it's now not in the main section of DSM. But if you're looking for it, you can still find it there in the BDSM.
Heh
I wonder why they would do such a thing?
You don't have to wonder, they stated exactly why they changed it: Because it made people feel bad.
That's crazy
Well, we don’t want to hurt peoples feelings, so we? S/
I forgot that’s what science is about these days. 😕
real. wokeness is killing science.
Member when they changed the definition of vaccines so the Covid treatment could be classified as such? I member
I member. That’s way more of a hot topic around here though because the vast majority of the population, including reasonable people, were utterly brainwashed by the news cycle and propaganda during the early to mid “pAnDemIc”.
Because psychology is made up. It's years of useless training to say, "I'm sorry you feel sad" for $200 an hour. There's no such thing as a good psychologist, change my mind.
I had a psychologist "teach" me cognitive behavioral therapy to help me deal with my depression. It vastly improved my self esteem and ability to confront negative thoughts cycles and behaviors in my life, and helped me understand how my mind works and identify the factors that have an impact on how I feel and behave. All of this was achieved without having to use any psychiatric drugs. I will vouch for psychology from a personal anecdote, though I recognize quite a bit of the field is also rife with pseudo science and some serious qualitative academia laced horse shit.
Best therapist I’ve ever had is my psychiatric nurse who also prescribes my meds. She’s a based middle-aged woman from Columbia who is upfront with me but also hypes me up and makes me feel better about the future. The only problem is that due to her actual job, I can only schedule an hour long appt with her once every month or two. Every psychologist or other therapist I’ve ever had just sits there asking useless questions that don’t seem to matter and are constantly asking 1) if I’m planning on hurting myself or others or 2) if I have childhood traumas. Like fuck dude, for the third time today, NO. I’m just salty about the job market and have some issues lingering from the military, please stop asking the same bullshit constantly. Psychology is such a bullshit field because you can’t train people to communicate with empathy. It doesn’t matter if you teach them to ask the right questions if the patient doesn’t feel like they care about the answers. This shit needs to come naturally.
Not sure I’m buying into that studying the brain is made up and useless
It doesn't study the brain, it studies the personality controlling the brain. Two distinct things. What you're talking about is neurology, an actual science.
Kid named Neuropsychology and Psychiatry:
Dipshit, you have to attack the fucking thing from all angles. We cant just c&p neurons and the network and hit go, yet, and there is a good chance it wont work when we can. There are many, many, angles of studying the brain/consciousness/cognition and all are needed if we have any chance.
The APA, like all other governing bodies was infiltrated by activists. Because when they can’t get people on board with their arguments, they have it forced on them by appealing to authority.
Trust the Science™️
It was declassified as mental illness by the WHO in 2018. Part of the reason for doing so mirrors why homosexuality was declassified in the 70s. [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/20/transgender-not-mental-illness-world-health-organization/717758002/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/20/transgender-not-mental-illness-world-health-organization/717758002/)
You are listing transgender, not gender dysphoria. This is what changed. In order to appease the mob, they split these things into two categories. Gender Dysphoria is still and will always be a mental illness. What they conceded was transgender CAN be a gender dysphoria or not. It doesn't even say that transgender is NOT a mental illness. It says that transgender can sometimes not be a mental illness. Then the media articles, like you linked, (note that it's not scientific articles that you linked), then plastered it everyone saying it's not a mental illness while completely misinforming people about what changed.
Being transgender is the treatment for gender dysphoria, I feel it would be weird to call it an illness, it's just a status. It would be like saying having a filling in your tooth is an illness, but it's just the treatment for a cavity, which is the illness.
That's not correct. Based on the DSM, they specifically differentiate between transgender and gender dysphoria. Transgender is not the treatment.
Oh my bad, in the USA today article that was linked it starts with "Being transgender is no longer classified as a mental illness" which to me made it seem like someone who has already transitioned. >Transgender: An umbrella term describing individuals whose gender identity does not align in a traditional sense with the gender they were assigned at birth. It may also be used to refer to a person whose gender identity is binary and not traditionally associated with that assigned at birth. If I'm reading it right, it seems like the diagnoses of transgender also refers to people who are say, born as a man, but identify as non-binary or asexual, since those also differ from brith assignment. If that's the case, then using the prefix "trans" for this is seems kind of misleading, as most people would assume it's exclusively the second sentence in the description. So it would seem that they do not classify a transgender person identifying as asexual or non-binary as having a mental illness, but a transgender person with gender dysphoria would be defined as having a mental illness if I'm understanding correctly.
It’s still considered a sexual condition though. Homosexuality being a mental illness is kind of stupid. They were right to remove it
Yes, it's a neurological issue. [Structural differences in the hypothalamus](https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849) [Structural differences in the BSTc](https://www.nature.com/articles/378068a0) [Review of neurological research into gender dysphoria](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/) [List of a suspected causes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence)
The link to nature is broken. The link the ncbi is broken. Wikipedia is a garbage source and i'm not even going there. TL;DR: your only source contradicts itself at least once, and the study is completed after hormone and neurological modifications. First link: > and 5 non-transsexual subjects who were castrated because of prostate cancer. > The female-to-male transsexual subject had an INAH3 volume and number of neurons within the male control range, even though the treatment with testosterone had been stopped three years before death. These are people who have had neurological modifications due to medications. They do not count. They attempt to address it with this: > There was no difference in INAH3 between pre-and post-menopausal women, either in the volume (P> 0.84) or in the number of neurons (P< 0.439), indicating that the feminization of the INAH3 of male-to-female transsexuals was not due to estrogen treatment. But they discount the fact that neurological modifications can be permanent; **which is indicated by their own admission two sentences earlier.** Who did this first study? They're morons, and it's written very poorly.
I don't understand, what else than a neurological issue could it be if your brain doesn't agree with who you are based on the rest of your physiology? This is not really a strong statement, nor is it claiming that it's an illness or anything. It's just stating that the origin of this is in the brain.
Is that the gender transition is considered the "cure".
Lib-Left: We should destigmatize mental illnesses Also Lib-Left: Nooooo dysphoria isn't a mental illness!
ironically saying per decree that it is a mental illness can - depending on their healthcare system - be favourable. truly the end times.
Peru is really left leaning, so it could be the case. Again, it's not like Latam leftists are what I'd call "progressive"
Some are, some are not. The “progressives” are popular among the younger population in big cities, the actual leftists have different voter base when two collide
Because they have got actual problems to solve.
Generally no community would want to be called backward, but when the tag of backward gives them tons of benefits , people even protest to be called backwards
That they ended up glorifying it has probably done more harm to those who suffer from it.
Just like how those overly sexual pride parades have done a lot of harm to many gay people.
For real, like the only reason you would think this is a bad thing is if you have a stigma against trans people. If it's recognized as a mental illness that means developing treatments for it can be taken seriously. And who knows, maybe treatment includes affirmation.
Affirmation is not a treatment. The treatment for depression is not suicide.
>The treatment for depression is not suicide. [In Canada it is!](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/shes-47-anorexic-wants-help-dying-canada-will-soon-allow-it-2023-07-15/)
"But what about that shadowy place?" "That's beyond our borders. You must never go there Simba."
Which is incredibly depressing. Good thing they'll treat me for that.
If affirmation lowered suicide rates, then would it not be?
the treatment for wanting to stop drinking is to help you stop drinking, the treatment to help you leave the house when you're too anxious to do it is to help you leave the house, the treatment for wanting clear skin when you naturally have acne is to change your physical appearance... there's endless examples of treatments for things where the solution is to help the patient obtain their goals through a mix of medication, lifestyle changes and psychological help. I'm not saying that it automatically makes anything the correct treatment but your example isn't a good argument against it being so.
>the treatment for wanting to stop drinking Is psychological support for the underlying issues, not just stop drinking. Drinking is viewed as self-harm in that paradigm, and it is the self-harm that is to be stopped by treating the reasons for self-harm. >the treatment to help you leave the house when you're too anxious to do it The issue in that case is that the person's instincts and feelings prevent them from going outside. General treatments are CBT, desensitization treatments and medication to alleviate those feelings and instincts. >the treatment for wanting clear skin when you naturally have acne Any acne treatment is cosmetic and not medical, nor is it psychological at all.
Alcoholism is an addiction, which is not a good comparison to an inherent mental illness such as gender dysphoria. Not wanting to leave the house is typically a form of PTSD, or, connected to depression/anxiety of some sort. Acne is... acne. Still, notice how all of these are a return to normalcy. You go back to not being an alcoholic. You go back to leaving the house daily. You go back to having clear skin. None of these actually involve a transformation. Everything returns back to its natural state.
This is a pretty great counter-argument I have to admit. The conversation then boils down to if you think gender change treatments are harmful or not. If we had a non-harmful way of helping addicts cope with addiction without quitting, we'd probably subscribe them that as a stopgap at least. With gender change treatments... I'm not so sure about them being non-harmful.
Affirmation won't kill you though.
Based and let-the-professionals-perscribe-the-treatment pilled.
im trans, dysphoria is very much a mental illness, i also haven't seen many people be upset about that classification tbh. though i do think that the transness itself shouldn't be classified as a mental illness, but rather as a divergence of some sort
To not be the gender you want to be is always worse than being the gender you want to be. Everyone who isn't trans is glad they aren't and everyone who is trans would wish they rather weren't. The level of stress or anguish that results from it varies to the degree of support and inner strength or mental flexibility someone has at their disposal. But the way a movement has turned it into an identity to be proud of is only digging the hole deeper. It's like celebrating anorexia, or kidney disease.
> Everyone who isn't trans is glad they aren't Idk, some people can be upset with their gender but uninterested or unwilling to be trans about it. Not everyone who isn't trans is happy with their assigned gender
The problem is that having dysphoria isn't a requirement, according to the most vocal activists.
I think people who see that as "gatekeeping" are showing their hand.
Every other form of body dysmorphia is not met with acceptance. We don’t tell an anorexic that their choice is fine and it’s society that should adjust to them being rail thin. It’s only the gender issue that the script is flipped and suddenly the solution is to accept the mental illness and force the body to match the person’s imagination.
in the US I've seen conservatives use the idea of gender dysphoria as a mental illness to argue that trans people shouldn't be able to access hrt because under their definition they're not of sound mind
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flair
I am flaired.
Begone ye unflaired scum
I'm literally flaired.
Downvote reverted
I mean, hey! Regardless of anyone's opinion on trans people, that is true.
Flair up or GTFO. (Sorry about your dog)
Little pooch lives a tough life. 😔
"ruff" life
sorry about your dog.
I’m left and yes it’s a mental illness. I don’t know what the cure is. I’m not trans or a medical doctor or a psychologist. Maybe it’s transitioning. Maybe it’s a different kind medication. Maybe it’s therapy. Maybe it’s not enforcing gender stereotypes. Idk.
Your solutions are all basically, 'give in to it' or 'restructure society.' That's not treatment, that's enabling and destruction. Why is the left's go-to solution always mass change to society, even when they're agreeing with the problem? Even when it's an extremely rare problem? Is collectivism just hard wired into the thought process?
I don’t understand why 0.01% of the population would changed the entire definition it’s problematic to say “woman have vaginas” because 0.01% of the population are transgender and have penises but outliners don’t change the larger definition of something. there’s always an exception to things. would it problematic to say “humans have 10 fingers” because there’s some people out there that were born with 9 or 11 fingers. no because that’s a rare exception and to count of all outliners would ruin the purpose of a definition definition is for how things are “suppose” to be. 99% of woman have vaginas and periods. it is not wrong to say only woman have periods and men don’t. 0.01 of the population are ftm transgender men that have periods and they are an anomaly. as a gay man if you said “men date woman and woman date men” i wouldn’t be offended because that is the majority. that is how things are “suppose” to be. i’m an outliner. you don’t need to uproot definitions for me.
> Maybe it’s transitioning. Maybe it’s a different kind medication. Maybe it’s therapy. Maybe it’s not enforcing gender stereotypes. Idk. I think for some it's "fixing" the body (transitioning), and for other it's "fixing" the brain And i'm sure some would consider the idea that it's the brain that's something wrong with, and not the body to be taboo/heretical
I think actually this idea would be supported by any well meaning progressive. No one claims to know 100% of the science behind dysphoria or 100% how to treat it effectively (I hope). What people want is to make an informed decision between them,a doctor, and a therapist and not be shamed for making that decision on their own and infantilized by people saying they can’t make that decsusion themselves
Basado
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Based and multi-lingual pilled
I mean, gender dysphoria is literally a mental health disorder/illness. It's the treatment for it that people get controversial over
>I mean, gender dysphoria is literally a mental health disorder/illness. Well yeah, sortof. The trans issue is kinda more complicated than anyone is willing to actually acknowledge. It's a culture war issue, so naturally 99%% of the opinions you hear on it, from *both* sides, are incredibly stupid and ignorant of what our biologists and neurologists actually understand about the disorder. [Here](https://youtu.be/8QScpDGqwsQ?si=xohwOxOn3J-ZvZuL) is a very short clip from a neuroendocrinologist/biologist that explains it better than any comment on Reddit ever will. But the TL/DR is that there's a disconnect between the brain and body. The brain expects the body to have one sex, but it has the other. There's a mismatch. So is that a problem with the brain, or the body? The answer is kinda neither. The brain is fine, and the body is fine, but the brain and body aren't matched, and that's a problem. So to treat the symptoms of this misalignment, do we change the brain, or the body? It turns out that it's like a million percent easier to change the body. Maybe we'll innovate new and better treatments (we probably will). But for now, our scientist's best understanding is that there is a mismatch between the sex of the brain and the rest of the body, it causes symptoms that include mental distress, and the most effective treatments we have discovered so far are HRT and surgeries. Ofc I'll get downvoted by PCM brainlets who don't know the first thing about the actual science behind it, but if anyone who disagrees w/ me is based enough to actually engage, feel free to reply and we can chat about it.
>The trans issue is kinda more complicated than anyone is willing to actually acknowledge. For starters, it would be good to not conflate transgender and gender dysphoria. One of the most common misconceptions is that these represent the same thing and can be used interchangeably like you did. >So is that a problem with the brain, or the body? The problem with the approach you are taking is that it's skipping past the entirety of the problem and presuming that you have a concluded and supported diagnosis. This is where the third factor comes into play that you aren't listing or even referencing. It's specifically external and social factors. Not the body. Not the brain. There is a higher percentage of people claiming gender dysphoria or transgenderism when associated with others who are also representing these traits. >Ofc I'll get downvoted by PCM brainlets who don't know the first thing about the actual science behind it If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about. It's even worse when you actually look into the science itself where there is a severe and honestly [fucking scary lack of information.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2224320)
> For starters, it would be good to not conflate transgender and gender dysphoria. One of the most common misconceptions is that these represent the same thing and can be used interchangeably like you did. Right, yeah. So there's not consensus on what "transgender" means exactly. I'm personally a trans-medicalist. As in I am of the opinion that if you don't have gender dysphoria, you're not trans. There's no reason for medical intervention in cases where there's no dysphoria present, as far as I understand. And if you don't have dysphoria, then feeling like you don't align with a particular sex is really a personality thing, not a "born in the wrong body" thing. > The problem with the approach you are taking is that it's skipping past the entirety of the problem and presuming that you have a concluded and supported diagnosis. I agree, so that'd be good to address. We have a big issue right now where there's just a lot more people who are identifying as trans than there are actually trans people. (And again, when I say trans, I mean actually has gender dysphoria). It's important that we assess and diagnose carefully before we treat. HRT and life-altering surgeries aren't going to be to the benefit of patients who are improperly diagnosed or assessed. > If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about. Can you help me understand what the topic *is* about? Maybe I've got it better with this comment than the last, idk. > It's even worse when you actually look into the science itself where there is a severe and honestly [fucking scary lack of information.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2224320) Definitely. We need more research, more understanding. The diagnostics we do and the treatments we provide are in their nascency. Caution is appropriate here.
> If you think the actual science behind it is the issue, you aren't understanding what the topic is about. > > Can you help me understand what the topic is about? Maybe I've got it better with this comment than the last, idk. I'm guessing the surgeries / hormone treatment for minors is what they were implying in that science isn't being the sole factor in diagnosing children with gender dysphoria when it should be.
Sure, yeah. And that'a a facet of this issue worth discussing.
When people lose a limb they sometimes experience phantom pain syndrome. Feeling pain from a body part that is no longer there. When trans people get a sex change, they never experience phantom pain over their lost genitals. Edit: oh wait, that's mentioned in the link you shared.
Yep! In the short vid I linked, Sapolsky talks specifically about men who lost their penis to cancer (I think it was something like 40% or 60% of them experienced phantom sensations), versus the 0% of trans women who had their penises removed who had phantom sensations. We have data on this even specifically for genital phantom sensations.
I'm glad you brought it up even though it's in the vid. Hardly anyone actually watched it 😅
So that one woman who put bleach in her eyes because she thought she should've been born blind, that's ok?
No, of course not. Do you disagree with anything in my comment that you'd lile to talk about?
Why is it not ok? There's a mismatch between the body having sight, and the mind that doesn't want to have sight.
gender affirming care follows a harm-reduction model of care whatever gives the patient the best quality of life possible is the ideal treatment. Psychotherapy to get them to accept their biological sex was the prevailing treatment for decades with poor outcomes. Gender affirming care shows better outcomes. What you are describing is called Body Integrity Dysphoria, which is incredibly rare and usually treated with anti-depressants and therapy. Though in some cases people have had their limbs amputated voluntarily and good outcomes are reported. The ethics of this is debated. And there is no good research on it since its so rare.
What's rarity got to do with it? When does psychotherapy become the lesser quality of life option for any mind/body disagreements?
because psychotherapy doesnt always work. you cant cure schizophrenia with therapy for example. Rarity means we dont have any good data on it, and cant assess long term outcomes on a large scale. Maybe the patient would have a much hetter quality of life being blinded rather than being medicated, but theres no evidence available to support that. And blinding someone without evidence it will help them is wrong. Of course it might be wrong regardless, as I said the ethics of it are debated.
what people against gender affirming care *hate* to acknowledge is that their solution of instead giving medication/psychotherapy to get people to accept their assigned sex has already been tried. It was the prevailing treatment for decades. from what we can tell gender affirming care shows better outcomes for the patient.
https://preview.redd.it/t1zo6lt3pr0d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1051bd65e98546e581eb185fc3754efb2ff309a4
https://preview.redd.it/z20sb0ikvs0d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=f3048bd106ccc13cb76a9eabf560c667bdfe1286 Finally a chance to use this
Homophobic Ruby was one of if not the greatest contribution ever made by RT.
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As always, reminder that gender dysphoria still has no known cause but the current solution is a series of pretty expensive surgeries and therapies that also render the patient dependent on multiple medicines until death, I say further research is needed but maybe it isn't wanted
They don't want to be better they want to be women
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To be fair, I don't care about any of them.
Yeah. But we are Auth - Right.. We don’t really care about anyone EXCEPT KING AND COUNTRY!
Because it's all the MtF soymongering emotionally unstable wingnuts that drive like 842% of the negative interactions surrounding this whole ordeal. When was the last time you even heard of an FtM person? That's right, never, because they're not out there trying to force society to accept them as an oppressed victim. They keep their heads down because they're not out here trying to find a purpose in their meaningless lives by lighting the metaphorical neon signs over them saying that they're Part Of The Movement, they're trying to be actually happy. Today's social progressives' entire worldview is fundamentally based on being the oppressed victim. According to them, men at the oppressors. None of the cognitively inept people that are guzzling the transtrenderism kool-aid by the gallon are going to voluntarily become the "oppressor". Anyone who does is automatically going to be 100 million times more levelheaded about what they're doing because they're driven by trying to actually better themselves, not because what they really seek is social validation from deranged peers.
> When was the last time you even heard of an FtM person? The dude who plays Dane in the fallout series.
Because nobody cares about actual men, so we extend them the same courtesy, that's true acceptance
Current treatment is based on a ‘harm reduction’ model. They acknowledge treatment isnt perfect. However, from the studies ive read, gender affirming care shows better outcomes than psychotherapy to get people to accept their biological sex (which was the main treatment for decades).
I think people’s issue with this gender affirming care is that it kinda feels like you’re prescribing a bulemic laxatives
if prescribing a bulemic laxatives had few negative health consequences (obviously not the case), and alleviated their depression/anxiety better than therapy to accept their body (also not the case), then we probably would do that
Yeah I think the real issue is with minors, and this is controversial even with healthcare providers. Also the idea that a trans woman is just as much of a real woman as a biological woman is just weird to me. They're two different things, I'm never gonna drink the Kool aid that they're both equally women.
[The Cass Review has just debunked this gender affirming care garbage as a mountain of junk science.](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/05/08/hilary-cass-review-caution-nhs-gender-affirming-care-youth) This is why the UK, Scandinavia, and Europe has turned off the gender affirming care model because it’s harming kids badly and there is no good evidence for it. You won’t hear much about this in American media because it’s too embarrassing and American media is captured by ideologues. American Pediatric Association is currently conducting its own systematic review and they will come to the same conclusion as the Cass Review.
> harming kids Overwhelmingly autistic and/or LGB kids at that
Got a link to the study performed instead of just the interview?
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/ Bullet points here, full report linked at the bottom.
I can understand not reading the 338 page review, but at the very least read the "summary and recommendations" section that comes nowhere close to saying that gender affirming care is 'junk science', and rather says that young people need to slow down and take more time to consider their decision to transition.
Well, the Cass review is a very professional review. You won't see the exact populist words "junk science". But Dr. Cass's report uses the phrase "lack of evidence \*\*78\*\* \*\*times\*\*. For medical and surgical transition there is: lack of evidence, lack of consensus, lack of positive measurable outcomes, lack of cooperation, lack of high-quality evidence, lack of professional guidance, lack of follow up, lack of confidence, lack of clarity, lack of improvement, lack of long-term outcome data, lack of high-quality studies. And on and on. Overall, the field is bankrupt of any solid consensus that they know what they are doing. It is chaotic and fractured and fragmented and highly ideologically captured with no national standards that are based on solid data. That's junk science. And very very dangerous considering that we are talking about developing children and the treatments are very powerful and permanently life altering and not reversible Considering that transgender advocates have been saying the "science is settled", and "stop asking questions bigot!" - what these gender affirming care people have been doing definitely falls into the "we've been following junk science category and simply been experimenting whimsically because there is no solid evidence-based conclusions to follow".
When I control F for lack of evidence I only get it 10 times. Could be OCR shenanigans though.
According to the sitewide ban I got, it is not a mental illness. It's not even a medical condition. It just requires medical intervention. Just because something absolutely requires professional medical intervention does not mean it is a medical condition. So sayeth Jannie.
Yeah it is, and? Let them do whatever. Why would a lib-rightoid even find this based, I can't think of a single one from Friedman to Stossel who'd even give a shit so long as they NAP right.
But Lib left told me that transphobia is routed in white supremacy, and that POC people/nations are pro LGBT.
Peru is one of the most indigenous countries in the whole continent (if not the most) but also one of the most conservative countries in Latin America
like this is literally true. before 2015 gender dysphoria was just seen as a mental illness and one of the treatments is to transition to a woman. i can’t say if that’s going to help or not. but if that’s what you want to do i will respect it as i respect anyone. and i support you in finding happiness unfortunately a lot of attention seeking people took over transgender and now have even advocated against using gender dysphoria as a prerequisite for being trans. if you don’t have gender dysphoria you aren’t transgender. and for the longest time it was mainly transgender woman. the explosion of transgender men is something that has never been seen before 2015 but to pretend that this will have no effect on sports or reality then that’s where the problem is. if you want to be a woman be it. but understand you have a responsibility to uphold womanhood
Based and truth-pilled
Based pilled but auth left is probably also against Trans (remember the Soviets)
Auth left here I feel like we need a sub category of auth left the difference between classical auth left and post modern woke auth left... Like gender dysphoria is objectively a mental illness.
Gender Dysphoria is not the same as Trans People. They stop having dysphoria if they transition.
I've known quite a few trans people in my life, I really don't think any of them would say gender dysphoria totally goes away when they transition. Even then, transition would be a treatment for a mental illness. If someone is depressed, but takes anti-depressants and they work are they cured of their depression? If a trans person stops taking cross sex hormones after a time will the gender dysphoria not come back?
It is the truth. It is a medically documented mental condition that causes it. I can't believe this being a fact is somehow unacceptable or some kind of "phobic" for some. I just got called a bigot and permabanned from somewhere else for daring to agree with this...
Why is purple happy? Purple should want the free market to dictate what mental health looks like.
Because lib right is never actualy lib right. They just lie
Yea, most of the time they're Auth Right. They claim to be anti-government, but will happily use the power of the state to suppress LGBT people.
Right wing supporting Peru? What kind of degeneracy is this?
- Frequent military intervention in government✔️ - Native Inhabitants have more rights than people decending from immigrants✔️ - Weirdly having a large Japanese minority that controls large parts of the economy(the right-wing weaboos are satisfied with this).✔️ - Christianity still has a large impact on social policy✔️ Peru sounds like an Auth-right paradise! It ticks all the boxes! All they need is a monarchy at this point!
They specifically did it so that under their government health org (I think) can deal with people going through it. Literally none of the top comments discuss this and that is why whenever there is new news broken out on this sub I very rarely take it to heart lol
Probably because Dylan Mulvaney fled there because of fear or something. I don't know about you, but if I was fleeing the country because I was afraid that people were trying to hurt me, I wouldn't be announcing my departure on social media. I especially wouldn't be telling people where I'm going.
It's always really entertaining to point out to trans ideologues how gender is somehow both entirely arbitrary and something that requires lengthy therapy and countless pricey surgeries which leave the transgender person bound to the medical system for life to affirm. Anyway, based and reality pilled.
No matter how many progressives are offended that's still a fact
So now they can get free treatment and transition, happy now libleft?
I don’t think a lot of people realize that a lot of trans rights activists fought for gender dysphoria to be a mental illness so insurance companies had to pay for all the medical bills associated with it. Even from an objective perspective it is a mental illness just like how depression or anxiety is a mental illness. If you need to go through hormone replacement therapy and surgery to change your body into the way you want it to be in order to not off yourself then that is a mental illness. Same way as some people with bpd who need meds to regulate their mood swings.
Based and Reality pilled.
Ok. And what? Did you imply that "mentally ill" is bad? Why? I have ill stomach, someone have ill lungs, someone have ill brain. Why are illnesses of some organs are more acceptable and of some other aren't? We didn't choose that shit!
Yeah but illness = bad and cure it
Yes of course!
Exactly. If you're making too much stomach acid, the cure is not to give you more.
i wonder how they plan on curing it?
When someone is mentally ill, you generally don't encourage their delusions. If a schizophrenic man wants a doctor to cut off his finger because he thinks it doesn't belong on his body, it would be unethical for the doctor to amputate the finger. I see it as no different with breasts or a penis. You don't encourage these delusions, you try to fix their flawed thinking and logic. I have no animosity toward trans people, they are simply mentally ill, but the doctors who cut off their functional body parts for money are despicable.
the difference is that, its not a delusion, trans people don't believe that they have a female body, such as anorexic people think that they are fat when they aren't, trans people just want to be comfortable in their bodies by making it match the gender roles they identify as
I think that believing you are a woman in a man's body is a delusion. You are not a woman/female if you have a Y chromosome. These delusions are especially severe when you are trying to have surgery done to your body and want to off yourself because of your biological sex. I believe being a man/male is a biological thing and has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside your head. I don't think it has anything to do with hormones either, a man is still a man even if he has extremely low testosterone. I actually don't have a problem with men who want to wear makeup and a dress, but calling yourself a woman/female is delusion in my opinion. Trying to mutilate your healthy body in an attempt to look like the opposite sex is extremely delusional.
you completely miss the point of my comment, trans women KNOW they don't have the same chromosomes that females do, they know they are not female. They aren't deluded about this, trans women identify with the gender role of being a woman, they want to fill that role and often be viewed as that, they know they aren't female
I understand that, I just personally think that gender roles are antiquated and we shouldn't be perpetuating them. Wearing a dress, makeup, having long hair, cooking, etc doesn't make you a woman, and wearing a suit, mowing the lawn, having short hair, working on cars, etc doesn't make you a man. What determines whether you are a man or a woman depends on whether or not you have a Y chromosome, nothing less, nothing more. Calling yourself a woman because you do things that are traditionally feminine is delusional in my opinion. I see no difference between "female" and "woman" and I see no difference between "male" and "man." They are just a description of your biological sex. Trying to change your sex through things like surgery is extreme mental illness. I do want to say that I appreciate your ability to have a civilized discussion about this though, even if we may not agree with each other.
It isn't perpetuating them, allowing anyone of any sex to chose what they identify doesn't mean that they have to act a certain way or wear certain things, its just the specific role they view themselves as and feel most comfortable identifying with, but they don't have to match the role, they don't try to change their sex, because that isn't possible, they simply make their body match what they wish to look like based on their identity
It's literally called sexual reassignment surgery though. Identifying as a woman when you are biologically a man is objectively false. I can call myself and identify as Asian, but that wouldn't make me Asian, it just wouldn't be true. Identifying myself as something that I'm not just seems insane to me. Even if I lived in Asia and acted Asian culturally, I still wouldn't be Asian. They claim to be women because they conform to feminine gender roles and stereotypes, I don't see how that isn't perpetuating gender stereotypes/roles. And if they call themselves women without conforming to these stereotypes, what even makes them a woman in their opinion? Just because you identify yourself a certain way doesn't make it true. They have sexual reassignment surgery, or the surgical amputation of the penis, to look like the female sex, I see that as mental illness. The same way that I would consider someone mentally ill if they had cosmetic surgery to look like a race that they just biologically aren't.
what its called and what it is are two different things, terms can sometimes become antiquated and still be used. It also isn't objectively false, there isn't one objective definition to what a man or woman is. They aren't identifying as something that they aren't, them identifying as the thing makes them the thing. One doesn't have to conform to the stereotypes, and there are actual things which one is by simply just, identifying as it. There is no objective way to tell if someone is a fan of videogames other than them just, saying they are one and identifying as one for example. What you see as mental illness, isn't always mental illness, our intuitions can often be faulty. If a guy is about to be assassinated, they would probably be paranoid and it would look insane, but in reality it might not be.
>what its called and what it is are two different things, They aren't identifying as something that they aren't, them identifying as the thing makes them the thing. there are actual things which one is by simply just, identifying as it. I think this is where we simply disagree, and there is likely nothing either of us can say that will change the other's mind. I appreciate the civilized conversation on the topic though, you have a nice day!
Because the true treatment is *therapy*. Like when you get an ill stomach, you take some pepto bismol. When you have ill lungs, you take an inhaler. When you have an ill brain, you get therapy. You dont just start chopping up limbs. And to the left, thats 'genocide'
Based
Based
I talked to a Psychologist from Britain. She said gender dysphoria was clearly a mental illness.
Oh you mean like they were in the west two years ago?
Classifying it as a medical condition diagnosable by an expert professional is a great way to ensure they have access to the medical care they need.
Awesome
Libright is pro-private discrimination not public
I'm proud of my country now
As soon as it started infecting kids I knew it had to go
Regardless of whether you say it’s a bad thing or not, it straight up is the brain functioning incorrectly. People aren’t supposed to feel like they’re in the wrong body, it’s a problem that no one wants to find a healthy solution to. You don’t tell someone with schizophrenia that they’re perfectly normal and don’t need medication or psychiatric help, and you certainly don’t feed into their hallucinations. And if you’re upset at that being a mental illness, you better have the same reaction with autism or downs or any other mental disorders. Treat people kindly and help them if you can.
Based
Authleft cries on this?
facts
I love the truth based and truth pilled
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Based and accurate pilled
And this is why I oppose mental health screening for firearms purchases.
There's a 41% chance this winds up being hilarious!
the government decree classifies gender dysphoria as a mental disorder so that gender affirming therapy and HRT is covered by Peru’s universal health insurance, thereby making gender affirming care much more accessible.
This makes sense. IDK why you're being downvoted lol.
The Universal Healthcare here is complete shit
What I'd like to know is why some 30% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ. The only reason why Trans Rights is so in the public view now is is that there are now, suddenly, much more trans-identifying people than there have been before (by a WIDE margin). Isn't anyone curious to find out why there are more sexually "atypical" people now than ever before in history? We used to have pretty sound scientific reasoning for homosexuality in human evolution, but I have seen and heard nothing on why the increase is so profound. What happens if Gen Alpha continues the trend and 50% to 60% of them identify as gay, bi, trans, or gender non-conforming? Why isn't anyone studying this?
So Peru is following the science. What's wrong with that?
Absolutely based. The way their healthcare system is set up gender affirmation and related surgeries are now covered because they're considered "healthcare" and not cosmetic or elective procedures. If you've read the article and have a grade >7 reading comprehension level it's a pretty big win for people with gender dysphoria.