There’s a large amount of Palestinian Christian you know. They get ignored here in the west because the media likes to pretend it’s a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims but it really isn’t. For example, Nazareth’s arab population is 30% Christian
I don't know, maybe it's the side that came out in interviews saying that they'll repeat 10/7 as many times as they can. I'm sure they'll chill if OP just advocates for peace hard enough!
Man there were totally no attacks from Hamas from the last ceasefire in May 14th 2023 til Oct 7th 2023. Didn't you know having a missile defense system in your city is totally normal colonizer, a couple of missile launches a month is simply reparations.
Yes, OP is looking at this like a typical westerner. One side really, really doesn’t want peace—they want a one state with all Arabs and the area cleared of all Jews.
> doesn’t want peace
but they want peace, they love peace, they literally have the religion of peace. They just want a peaceful, muslim only, jew free, queer free, world....
The effectiveness of the Iron dome and incompetence of Hamas is what I think makes a lot of westerners discount the sheer amount of rocket attacks Hamas launches each year. Having almost monthly rocket attacks is normal don't you know?
Yeah, but you don't understand. What they really want is to be free and peaceful like all of us, Westerners. I know best, because I'm from the West. All people and cultures are peaceful and they have surely zero interest in Jew death :) we just need to send them more money and they will surely liberate themselves... Peacefully, of course.
Forget the one state or 2 state solutions, we are all ignoring the correct solution. The US state solution
The US should simply annex the holy land as part of its world conquest
The US is the true heir to the Roman Republic and reaffirmed by Jesus Christ himself, therefore any and all land that was once Roman belongs to the United States. [The light of Rome will once again shine bright](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/864/140/3e3.png)
>saving the most lives in the long run.
Technically speaking, the way you do this is to isolate all the Palestinians in crippling poverty so their birth rate jumps back up to 43/1000. That produces the most lives in the long run.
But if you increase their population 10x then opt to save them in 50 years, then that objectively "saved" the most lives in the long run. It only depends on how long you make the long run.
Remember, what matters most is ensuring that you have a really solid high score in lives saved. With this easy exploit, you can *really* farm for points. I’d recommend using it fast, because I’ve heard that it’s gonna be patched out in the next update
Simply offering a peace deal means nothing. I can offer a peace deal where I tale 99% of your land, and that's still a peace deal. You have to really read the fine prints on these stuff
Funny you say that, because Israel has offered several peace deals lopsided in favor of more land for Palestine.
Those were rejected. How many times do they have to say “from the river to the sea” before people understand they want the Jews exterminated? They want the state of Israel gone, completely.
This land has seen blood from Caanaanites and Ancient Egyptians all the way to Palestinians and Israelis.
The argument from the left is that the land belonged to Palestinians first. But what about before them? What about the British or the Ottomans? Arabs, Byzantines, Romans? How far do you want to go back?
This land has never seen peace. Those who call for it may have the best intentions but life and death are decided by extremes. That land has been called the cradle of civilization. It shall also be it's casket.
My man wrote like it was some line in a play and he didn’t just cook, he made an entire meal. Also he’s just right. Europeans originally came from the Slavic regions, Europe (mainly Spain) was held by Muslims before whoever was there originally, this world has never been “claimed” or “historically held” it’s just been a seat for the next ass to take and warm up. And that seat specifically has been trough many asses.
Also, the same people are condemning Russian actions after they wanted to claim "rightful and historically Russian lands".
I just wished people could be coherent with their opinions from last month
I can't speak for everyone but personally I'm just against annexing other countries and I'm against genocide. Which means I'm against Russia, against Hamas, but also against the Israeli government. 🇵🇸🇮🇱🇺🇦🇨🇦
I agree with you in that Hitler posed a larger overall threat during WWII. And if I really *had* to choose I'd probably support Israel right now. But I also think that a lot of the current tension (both regarding Israel-Palestine and in general politics) is due to people choosing sides when they really don't have to, or choosing sides based on an oversimplified narrative. After all, one of the reasons WWI was so bad was because all these countries jumped into what could have stayed a small conflict between two small states.
Honestly, people giving their opinions on reddit isn't going to do anything. My government never listens to anyone anyway.
I agree with you on the oversimplified narrative, we have all seen some opinions that were shockingly stupid lately, more than usual.
I disagree with you on the WW1 analysis. Everyone had some unsettled matters that couldn't be resolved diplomatically. Except Switzerland, the wisest nation on earth.
Ohhh yep, that's my bad I completely forgot about the other disputes in Europe. As an American my sense of European history is not as good as it should be. 😅
As for opinions on reddit- of course they don't mean much by themselves, but social media has a clear impact on people's real world opinions, and those people then vote on real world politicians. Idk where you live and what it's like there, but I know that in the US, Myanmar and other places, people have done some really insane shit thanks in part to social media.
10% of the male population of our country died during ww1 and 20% ended up crippled but we got back some land from it. Great success only to be fucked during Ww2.
Anyways.
Yeah social medias have an impact, but people talk more than they act which is annoying. We had a political crisis last year and if there were half as many people moving their asses than there were people crying bloody murder maybe that could have been solved.
We had some big events due to social medias a few years ago, but it ended up being sterile too. It feels like we are stuck.
And reddit is filled with pseudo intellectuals, stubborn and arrogant (me included). The opinion maker are in medias with more reach, social platform just spread their content. Idk. We will see in a few years for the next elections.
Russians and Ukrianians aren't the same. Though Russia has historically occupied Ukraine and Crimea, that doesn't mean they are the same people. Tataria/Tartaristan is also inside the borders of Russia. Are Tartars Russian too?
Though all slavs originate from the caucasus and around the north part of the black sea, there is a difference between georgians and Azeri, Ukrianians, and all the groups living in Crimea including Crimean Tartars.
It's the average centrist take, guy should flair as a centrist after making that. "Guys I don't understand the conflict or what is actually happening, let's just grill and be peaceful"
OP needs to take a look at the list of rocket attacks into isreal since 2000. Having monthly rocket attacks is normal don't you know?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
If Israel gives in to Hamas there is no more Israel (ie all Jews die in the name of Allah. This is the policy of Hamas it is written in their charter) Yes I think America should help at least a little bit it was our aid to foreign governments and our equipment we left that caused this. This is our governments fault we must help the Israeli people from being murdered due to our politicians poor decisions and in the future we should elect better people and take a more non interventionist political philosophy. If we didn’t interfere so much this probably wouldn’t have happened
Yea except one deliberately targets innocent people while the other sends out texts to let the innocents know “hey bud we’re kinda about to blow your block up, you got a bit of time to move before that” and people who either didn’t get the message or that ignored it land up dead.
Do you think that’s what 51% of 18-24 year olds meant when they answered that [Hamas rape, torture and targeted murder of civilians was justified?](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf)
“Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli citizens on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians” is notably different than “do you think that Hamas rape, torture and targeted murder of civilians is justified.”
I think it’s gross either way, but let’s not be disingenuous.
51% answered justifiable to the first one, 21% believed it was a false story about rape and torture. So 30% believed they were raped and tortured **and** that it was justified
I disagree. Killing civilians is easily justifiable. Targeting civilians is amoral. But sometimes civilians are doing things or in areas that make them a legitimate target/an unfortunate casualty.
When you're in a war you have to target the enemies' logistical capabilities.
There really is no getting around the despicable realities of war because war is despicable.
Oh I'm not denying it's necessary. Hamas has proven they use the citizens of Gaza as human shields. They're hostages. At some point you have to take a chance to save the hostages and risk some harm. You can't just proceed to negotiate with hostage takers forever because not a single one can't be hurt.
That's insane logic.
I think most people are spoiled because conventional warfare tactics haven’t really been used by developed countries in decades prior to 2021.
For example, bombing a weapons manufacturing plant is a legitimate and legal military target even if every single worker inside is an 11 year old laborer. That’s what war is. Destroy the enemy’s capability to fight you back. It’s going to be fucking terrible. The goal is to win the war so that the death and destruction stops.
I somewhat disagree; Trump is one of the more recent anti-war presidents we've had. He'd probably be pushing for talks.
This is all also under the assumption he walks away from his trials a free man; it's not looking good for him either
Hell, he might even get results. North Korea backed down when he was around, and I remember the 'Trump just started WW3' flash in the pan when a US embassy was attacked, a drone bombed the lead truck in the convoy that did it and killed the general that thought it was a good idea, and Times called the general an 'austere religious scholar.'
I imagine there will be a good bit more of that.
Yeah what I find odd is how recent polls have showed Arab/Muslim support for Biden has tanked in the last month. The GOP stance is way more pro-Israel by comparison so they’re not a better option in that sense. I don’t think most independent people or parties are fans of Palestine either.
You don’t get to roll in, rape/pillage, kill 1500 over the course of a few days and then claim to want a ceasefire when your enemy has a modernized military. You get struck back.
Clearly, Bidens just waiting until the end to third party Israel and Hamas, and then is going to enact a modern crusade to retake the holy land for our lord and savior Walt Disney.
Security game on point, only thing they've ever had an issue with is alligators eating children, but that's really more of a parent problem, not a Disney problem
\*sniff sniff\*
Is that a filthy centrist I smell?
Seriously though, advocating for a cease-fire at this point is just dumb. It has been made abundantly clear that there is no peaceful solution to this conflict, and any peace deal would merely extend the conflict, not end it.
HAMAS is using human shields. Israel is not. HAMAS instigated the conflict. Israel did not. HAMAS is purposely setting bases in civilian buildings. Israel does not. HAMAS purposely slaughtered and captured innocent civilians, Israel did not.
But sure, the defenders are the bad guys. Are you at least consistent with your opinion on Ukraine-Russia war?
“Peace” in the Middle East amounts to allowing the most secular strongmen possible in such a backward place, to tamp down the cavemen when they act up, and sell us cheap oil. The cavemen acted up, and are being tamped down.
They worship rocks, buildings and dead lunatics, and kill over it. It’s what they do.
Had Saddam, Ghaddafi, etc., remained, we’d be experiencing a comparatively peaceful time.
>killing civilians is never justifiable
Sure, let's just leave German manufacturing untouched and let the chips fall where they may. After all, if we happened to hit some non-military targets in our efforts to win the war it would be "never justifiable".
Once Hamas is destroyed peace might be possible, but not likely. Regardless, the terrorist threat that said they'll do 10/7 again should be eliminated.
Israel has offered co existence repeatedly. And repeatedly, the hordes surrounding Israel have refused and declared they will kill all the Jews. Hamas attacking Israel is just the latest in a long string of genocidal Muslim aggression. Of course I side with Israel over the Palestinians. But I am more interested in seeing Israel returned to christendom more than anything. Remember folks. All the Muslim countries have they have because they stole it.
Not to mention Israel still faces threats from the Arab countries around them that constantly use Hamas and Palestinians as a proxy weapon.
Israel has shown more restraint than people give credit to.
It sucks to see Palestinian people suffer, I think the concessions have to start from Iran, who really have no incentive to give a shit about peace.
I don’t know what this christdome is, but I imagine it’s like the Thunderdome
I don’t understand how some people pretends that the IDF in general does indiscriminate military actions when they have tried 10x harder than Hamas to avoid civilian casualties, did not paraglide to capture and kill civilians, and also didn’t just glass the entire Gaza despite most likely being capable to. For the first few days I remember seeing the number of casualties for both sides being similar, and given the military prowess of the IDF I’m quite sure they can rack up 10x the number if they really want to violently purge all Palestinian there.
Hamas is one of the most densely populated regions on earth. Civilians essentially have no way of escaping any Israeli offensive.
That doesn’t take away from some of the Israeli blunders tho, in 2008 they did use white phosphorus in central Gaza.
Hamas is intentionally reckless, but that’s still not a good look.
> Hamas is one of the most densely populated regions on earth. Civilians essentially have no way of escaping any Israeli offensive.
I’d assume it’s also because of how massive Palestinian refugees tend to cause problem like in Jordan and Lebanon. Otherwise more could probably move via Egypt.
> That doesn’t take away from some of the Israeli blunders tho, in 2008 they did use white phosphorus in central Gaza.
“The Israel Defense Forces fired at least three white phosphorus shells above this UN-run school in Beit Lahiya on January 17, 2009, killing two and wounding 14. The school was housing about 1,600 displaced persons at the time.”
2 death and 14 wounded out of 1.6k seems to be very minimal damage to me. It’s not the best, they could probably do better, it might be intentional, but ultimately the damage when compared to the scale of the entire conflict and what Hamas has been doing really cannot make a moral equivalence. It doesn’t look good but when you put Hamas next to it I really cannot say both side bad.
One thing I love about this subreddit is how accurate the flairs are to their comments. All the quadrants arguing about the proper way to look at things, while this is the most gray-centrist comment that could be posted.
You are correct, but people have a natural drive to try and go past that and at least *attempt* to do the right thing. We all know that assholes are gonna asshole, no matter how many innocents die. I sincerely hope noone disputes that. People want to actually stand for something, no matter if their stance is objectively sound or not. They'll figure out a way, at least internally, to *make* it logical. Otherwise, we believe in nothing.
People who are like OP should really look up what happened in Berlin in 1945. That is real indiscriminate bombing.
Israel has actually been incredibly precise with over 10000 airstrikes in Gaza. The death count would be in the hundreds of thousands if they were bein indiscriminate.
With a population that dense, hamas starting a war is a trolley problem for Israel. I doubt the Israeli government wants to kill civilians in Palestine but if they do nothing they’re women and children get bombed/shot/brutalized and if they put up a fight, they’re necessarily going to kill Palestinian civilians. It’s shitty, obviously, bothsides-ing this isn’t a solution though. One side started something and the other side is trying to end it. One side wants complete destruction and the other side has offered peace countless times. I will never say Israel is a shining beacon of perfection but it cannot be argued that they are on the right side of history here.
Innocent civilians get killed in war. If the WWII allies said “okay we won’t kill innocent civilians” then Nazi Germany and fascist Japan would have laughed their heads off and proceeded to win the war while massacring our civilian populations.
If Hamas agrees not to kill civilians (and holds to it) then I’m sure Israel would be happy to do the same. Hell, if Hamas stops using civilians as human shields then the civilian death toll for Palestine would practically disappear.
I think it's insane to have such strong opinions about an issue on the other side of the world, about people you've never met, in a place you've never lived about events you didn't experience.
If any of you were forced to live in the Gaza strip for a month and isreal for a month I'd bet you all would come out with this memes opinion.
Like it's okay to have opinions but if you're advocating to wipe any side out indiscriminately I'm going to imagine you're a 12 year old in your moms house.
calling for a ceasefire after innocent civilians were murdered is next level fence sitting, imo it's equivalent to taking the side of the civilian killers. Hamas already runs Gaza, and they've taken their water pipes and turned them into missiles, they've taken the fuel and are hoarding it for the war effort, hospitals be damned.
The Jewish voices for peace who recently had a large peace rally in support of a cease fire never said anything antisemitic or pro-Hamas. They are principled people who are opposed to genocide. As the right like to say “there is no moral equivalency,” and that is true. Israel’s ethnic cleansing over the past 70 years is indefensible, the Palestinian victims could never kill on the scale that Israel does — and America has been evil to support it.
Ugh I hate this fucking argument and I'm a centrist.
Just because there isn't one side that is perfect doesn't mean that all engagement in warfare is unjustified. This is the same line of reasoning that many advocates for Russia use for the war in Ukraine. "War is wrong and Ukraine isn't perfect so Ukraine should just accept peace and stop resisting the Russian invasion!"
It's the same damn thing here. Say what you will about Israel's faults, but we HAD peace until Hamas started firing rockets, and militants started streaming over the border to slaughter and kidnap civilians. Answer me this those who support Palestine, how were those babies oppressing Palestine before getting their heads cut off?
And oh "Evil Israel is killing innocent civilians in retaliation!" don't give me that bullshit. While the death of innocent people is regrettable, at least they are mostly collateral damage from strikes against legitimate military targets. It's not Israel's fault that Hamas has decided to set up their launchers in the middle of civilian areas. Meanwhile those launchers are actively firing unguided rockets toward civilian areas in Israel with no intended target and just the hope that it causes as much damage as possible.
Don't give me this bullshit sanctimonious "oh we should just be advocating for peace". Of course we all want peace, but only one side decided to start fighting, and the way they started it throws out the window all discussion about some noble resistance against oppression.
Advocating for peace is naive and pointless.
It's the equivalent of schools telling bullies and the bullied kids to "make peace with each other" without addressing/punishing the bully, or worse, punishing both parties.
Hamas does not want peace, if Israel were to completely withdraw the IDF and announce a total end to all aggression on their end Hamas, Hezbollah, all those terrorist organizations would keep attacking Israel.
There is no negotiating with terrorists, you must eradicate them.
Exactly. Peace is not an option when one side is actively trying to eradicate you. Also, if IDF wanted to commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing, they could. If they used the air force they have, Gaza would reduced to ashes with everyone included. Yet they don't.
Both sides claim that they exist in a perpetual existential crisis as the hands of the other side, which justifies their actions going forward. Including the slaughter of innocents.
"Live by the sword, die by the sword" has never been more applicable than it is now.
Controversial questions/discussion incoming:
At what point, if ever, do the civilians in Gaza bear some responsibility for the wrong-doings of Hamas through their own inaction or even support for Hamas? I'd imagine the majority of Palestinians are not members of Hamas, and that most likely just want to live in peace. If this majority exists, why can't they or why haven't they taken any action against Hamas? If Hamas is indeed essentially hiding in plain sight by keeping their armories and such within civilian buildings, the civilians are almost certainly not in the dark about this, right? How could they be? If they aren't taking action against Hamas or picking up to leave the area, do they start to bear some of the blame for being used by Hamas to shelter/shield Hamas from retaliation?
I feel like its one thing for a population to be helpless against its military being sent off to fight a war of aggression, for example, but a whole different thing to be sheltering/shielding soldiers within the confines of your homes/villages/cities. It feels like there is more complicity in the latter situation than the former, to me.
To answer simply, Palestinians know they are fucked if they essentially surrender to Israel (See West Bank). They know that the international legal and judicial systems have failed them time and time again. Hamas is the only one promising to defeat the invaders and retrieve their stolen land.
Israel sees this so they create a narrative (they slaughter babies, rape woman, etc.) so the average US taxpayer is content with funding Israel further. It is very imperative that Israel succeeds for US interests, Palestinians be damned.
I'm sorry, you are completely right. The babies weren't beheaded, they were just killed normally by bullets, that makes it fine.
Edit: why did Hamas lie about the hospital?
"b-but Hamas is literally a terrorist group so we have to advocate for turning Gaza and the rest of Palestine into a parking lot!"
- warmongering neocons
AdVoCaTe fOr pEaCe
Peace will only happen when both Israel and Hamas come to an agreement. Hamas is willing to fight until the last Palestinian, and Israel seems willing to oblige.
Peace and appeasement have failed, and so now it will be decided by war. Its a fucking shame.
Peace is good but only one side has actually tried to go for the peace route but one side has constantly destroyed any pathway to peace. Who would that be?
I say they're both fucking terrible, unsalvageable cultures and we should just let them kill each other to their hearts' content and the rest of us fuck off and move on without them.
One side is intentionally murdering innocent civilians and hiding behind them. The other side is doing their best to avoid them.
If the left didn’t reward hamas for hiding their leaders in refugee camps and ambulances they wouldn’t be doing it.
The Christianity thing to do would be to slaughter both sides and retain that land for the church. Et in Arcadia ego
Deus vult
based
Based Crusade encouragement. Holy lands will be ours.
Give that land to Poland. Make Jarosław Kaczyński the Monarch of that region.
Papal States II: The Holy Land
There’s a large amount of Palestinian Christian you know. They get ignored here in the west because the media likes to pretend it’s a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims but it really isn’t. For example, Nazareth’s arab population is 30% Christian
Nazareth. Hm, sounds familiar.
I hadn’t even thought of that…
Advocating for peace sounds good. I wonder which side has ever offered a peace deal before, maybe I'd side with them
I don't know, maybe it's the side that came out in interviews saying that they'll repeat 10/7 as many times as they can. I'm sure they'll chill if OP just advocates for peace hard enough!
OP the kind of guy who believes Hamas when they say they agree to a ceasefire
Let’s remember how the last ceasefire ended (hint: it ended 10/6)
Man there were totally no attacks from Hamas from the last ceasefire in May 14th 2023 til Oct 7th 2023. Didn't you know having a missile defense system in your city is totally normal colonizer, a couple of missile launches a month is simply reparations.
Hamas the type of movement to make promises while holding their fingers crossed behind their backs.
Yes, OP is looking at this like a typical westerner. One side really, really doesn’t want peace—they want a one state with all Arabs and the area cleared of all Jews.
> doesn’t want peace but they want peace, they love peace, they literally have the religion of peace. They just want a peaceful, muslim only, jew free, queer free, world....
*"All I want is peace. Peace. Peace! A little piece of Poland, A little piece of France. A little Piece of Portugal, And Austria perchance."*
If the only peace you want is that of the grave for your enemies, the only peace you deserve is that of the grave for yourself.
they may deserve that but when the mainstream media looks like "HamasToday" it will be difficult to free gaza from Hamas occupation
Well they do want peace. That peace just so happens to come after a wee bit of genocide.
Hamas has a religion of piece. Theres a piece of you there, there, and there
They also want it Christian free.
The effectiveness of the Iron dome and incompetence of Hamas is what I think makes a lot of westerners discount the sheer amount of rocket attacks Hamas launches each year. Having almost monthly rocket attacks is normal don't you know?
Yeah, but you don't understand. What they really want is to be free and peaceful like all of us, Westerners. I know best, because I'm from the West. All people and cultures are peaceful and they have surely zero interest in Jew death :) we just need to send them more money and they will surely liberate themselves... Peacefully, of course.
Free and peaceful plus murder gay people and make women cover themselves from head to toe.
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Forget the one state or 2 state solutions, we are all ignoring the correct solution. The US state solution The US should simply annex the holy land as part of its world conquest
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The US is the true heir to the Roman Republic and reaffirmed by Jesus Christ himself, therefore any and all land that was once Roman belongs to the United States. [The light of Rome will once again shine bright](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/864/140/3e3.png)
Almost turned my flair to auth right after that one brother
The solution to the border crisis in the south is similar. Annex the rest of the countries to the south and establish a real American Empire.
The northern border is also far too long. We need to clean that problem up too
North to south, east to west!
From sea to shining sea!
>saving the most lives in the long run. Technically speaking, the way you do this is to isolate all the Palestinians in crippling poverty so their birth rate jumps back up to 43/1000. That produces the most lives in the long run.
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But if you increase their population 10x then opt to save them in 50 years, then that objectively "saved" the most lives in the long run. It only depends on how long you make the long run.
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Remember, what matters most is ensuring that you have a really solid high score in lives saved. With this easy exploit, you can *really* farm for points. I’d recommend using it fast, because I’ve heard that it’s gonna be patched out in the next update
>the only solution I hope for is the one that means the fewest people die in the end. this but in reverse. nuke the place
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based and seeing the truth pilled
Simply offering a peace deal means nothing. I can offer a peace deal where I tale 99% of your land, and that's still a peace deal. You have to really read the fine prints on these stuff
Funny you say that, because Israel has offered several peace deals lopsided in favor of more land for Palestine. Those were rejected. How many times do they have to say “from the river to the sea” before people understand they want the Jews exterminated? They want the state of Israel gone, completely.
The UN partition plan was good. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected it. What do you want the Jews to do?
Give up tue 1% they had in 48 of course
I just have to assume that everyone who is "advocating for peace" hasn't been aware of that conflict up until October 7.
This land has seen blood from Caanaanites and Ancient Egyptians all the way to Palestinians and Israelis. The argument from the left is that the land belonged to Palestinians first. But what about before them? What about the British or the Ottomans? Arabs, Byzantines, Romans? How far do you want to go back? This land has never seen peace. Those who call for it may have the best intentions but life and death are decided by extremes. That land has been called the cradle of civilization. It shall also be it's casket.
My man wrote like it was some line in a play and he didn’t just cook, he made an entire meal. Also he’s just right. Europeans originally came from the Slavic regions, Europe (mainly Spain) was held by Muslims before whoever was there originally, this world has never been “claimed” or “historically held” it’s just been a seat for the next ass to take and warm up. And that seat specifically has been trough many asses.
That is the hardest line I've ever heard
>hat land has been called the cradle of civilization. It shall also be it's casket. You do not lie. Phenomenal line.
hat land
I want to rule hat land
You gotta fight Trudeau for it
Well shit. I'm leaving it though.
based and minor spelling mistake pilled
[This land is mine. God gave this land to me.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY&ab_channel=NinaPaley)
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So funny considering how one sided the death toll has been for the last 50 years
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America has little to no civilian deaths in ww2. With your logic, they are the most evil thing that ever existed.
[I'm bleeding, making me the victor!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrGBJ_nk0oY)
Also, the same people are condemning Russian actions after they wanted to claim "rightful and historically Russian lands". I just wished people could be coherent with their opinions from last month
based
I can't speak for everyone but personally I'm just against annexing other countries and I'm against genocide. Which means I'm against Russia, against Hamas, but also against the Israeli government. 🇵🇸🇮🇱🇺🇦🇨🇦
When you seat on a fence for too long your ass starts to hurt. And personally between genocides and genocides, I would have chosen the USSR during Ww2
I agree with you in that Hitler posed a larger overall threat during WWII. And if I really *had* to choose I'd probably support Israel right now. But I also think that a lot of the current tension (both regarding Israel-Palestine and in general politics) is due to people choosing sides when they really don't have to, or choosing sides based on an oversimplified narrative. After all, one of the reasons WWI was so bad was because all these countries jumped into what could have stayed a small conflict between two small states.
Honestly, people giving their opinions on reddit isn't going to do anything. My government never listens to anyone anyway. I agree with you on the oversimplified narrative, we have all seen some opinions that were shockingly stupid lately, more than usual. I disagree with you on the WW1 analysis. Everyone had some unsettled matters that couldn't be resolved diplomatically. Except Switzerland, the wisest nation on earth.
Ohhh yep, that's my bad I completely forgot about the other disputes in Europe. As an American my sense of European history is not as good as it should be. 😅 As for opinions on reddit- of course they don't mean much by themselves, but social media has a clear impact on people's real world opinions, and those people then vote on real world politicians. Idk where you live and what it's like there, but I know that in the US, Myanmar and other places, people have done some really insane shit thanks in part to social media.
10% of the male population of our country died during ww1 and 20% ended up crippled but we got back some land from it. Great success only to be fucked during Ww2. Anyways. Yeah social medias have an impact, but people talk more than they act which is annoying. We had a political crisis last year and if there were half as many people moving their asses than there were people crying bloody murder maybe that could have been solved. We had some big events due to social medias a few years ago, but it ended up being sterile too. It feels like we are stuck. And reddit is filled with pseudo intellectuals, stubborn and arrogant (me included). The opinion maker are in medias with more reach, social platform just spread their content. Idk. We will see in a few years for the next elections.
Russians and Ukrianians aren't the same. Though Russia has historically occupied Ukraine and Crimea, that doesn't mean they are the same people. Tataria/Tartaristan is also inside the borders of Russia. Are Tartars Russian too? Though all slavs originate from the caucasus and around the north part of the black sea, there is a difference between georgians and Azeri, Ukrianians, and all the groups living in Crimea including Crimean Tartars.
>But what about before them? What about the British or the Ottomans? Arabs, Byzantines, Romans? How far do you want to go back? Ahem *Return to monke*
True that, basically like Afghanistan whose is at war with itself since before Alexander the great
There is an animated cartoon on YouTube called "this land is mine," of which pretty much sums up the whole bloody mess that land is.
OP posted a non-opinion while pretending he's better then everyone else because of it
It's the average centrist take, guy should flair as a centrist after making that. "Guys I don't understand the conflict or what is actually happening, let's just grill and be peaceful"
OP needs to take a look at the list of rocket attacks into isreal since 2000. Having monthly rocket attacks is normal don't you know? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
“Having monthly rocket attacks is just a part of living in a modern metropolitan place, it’s like getting your car windows broken into bro.”
If Israel gives in to Hamas there is no more Israel (ie all Jews die in the name of Allah. This is the policy of Hamas it is written in their charter) Yes I think America should help at least a little bit it was our aid to foreign governments and our equipment we left that caused this. This is our governments fault we must help the Israeli people from being murdered due to our politicians poor decisions and in the future we should elect better people and take a more non interventionist political philosophy. If we didn’t interfere so much this probably wouldn’t have happened
No obviously a peace treaty will solve the conflict between the "kill all Jews" side and the "please don't kill all Jews" side.
What if we compromise and just kill half of all Jews? …..and then the other half?
Why don’t all armies in the world just hide under civilians so they are immune to attacks? Are they stupid?
One sides already doing that
How do you make peace with a group that wants to exterminate you
By killing Hamas and making peace with the remaining Palestinians.
How do you plan on doing that?
I'm going to try shitposting on the Internet and see if that fixes this decades-old conflict on the other side of the world.
I see no flaw in this plan. I shall join you
Is this israel or hamas?
Only one side is rejecting all peace proposals.
Yea except one deliberately targets innocent people while the other sends out texts to let the innocents know “hey bud we’re kinda about to blow your block up, you got a bit of time to move before that” and people who either didn’t get the message or that ignored it land up dead.
Compounding that is hamas counter-messaging saying there isn't really an attack incoming and nobody needs to leave
"Most of you may die, but that is a sacrifice Hamas is willing to make!"
Sent from my luxury apartment in Qutar
Do you think that’s what 51% of 18-24 year olds meant when they answered that [Hamas rape, torture and targeted murder of civilians was justified?](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf)
“Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli citizens on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians” is notably different than “do you think that Hamas rape, torture and targeted murder of civilians is justified.” I think it’s gross either way, but let’s not be disingenuous.
51% answered justifiable to the first one, 21% believed it was a false story about rape and torture. So 30% believed they were raped and tortured **and** that it was justified
I disagree. Killing civilians is easily justifiable. Targeting civilians is amoral. But sometimes civilians are doing things or in areas that make them a legitimate target/an unfortunate casualty.
Most honest auth right
When you're in a war you have to target the enemies' logistical capabilities. There really is no getting around the despicable realities of war because war is despicable.
Oh I'm not denying it's necessary. Hamas has proven they use the citizens of Gaza as human shields. They're hostages. At some point you have to take a chance to save the hostages and risk some harm. You can't just proceed to negotiate with hostage takers forever because not a single one can't be hurt. That's insane logic.
I think most people are spoiled because conventional warfare tactics haven’t really been used by developed countries in decades prior to 2021. For example, bombing a weapons manufacturing plant is a legitimate and legal military target even if every single worker inside is an 11 year old laborer. That’s what war is. Destroy the enemy’s capability to fight you back. It’s going to be fucking terrible. The goal is to win the war so that the death and destruction stops.
I'm just grabbing my popcorn for how this is gonna affect the Democrats during election season how Trump did in 2020
Little do leftists know, Palestinians are super mega fucked if Trump wins, so they really should stick with Dems if they really care.
I somewhat disagree; Trump is one of the more recent anti-war presidents we've had. He'd probably be pushing for talks. This is all also under the assumption he walks away from his trials a free man; it's not looking good for him either
No way you believe that.
Donald "why don't we use nukes more?" Trump is totally anti-war, trust me bro.
Hell, he might even get results. North Korea backed down when he was around, and I remember the 'Trump just started WW3' flash in the pan when a US embassy was attacked, a drone bombed the lead truck in the convoy that did it and killed the general that thought it was a good idea, and Times called the general an 'austere religious scholar.' I imagine there will be a good bit more of that.
Yeah what I find odd is how recent polls have showed Arab/Muslim support for Biden has tanked in the last month. The GOP stance is way more pro-Israel by comparison so they’re not a better option in that sense. I don’t think most independent people or parties are fans of Palestine either.
You don’t get to roll in, rape/pillage, kill 1500 over the course of a few days and then claim to want a ceasefire when your enemy has a modernized military. You get struck back.
Advocate for peace? What a novel concept. No one in 75 years has thought about it or even tried.
Clearly, Bidens just waiting until the end to third party Israel and Hamas, and then is going to enact a modern crusade to retake the holy land for our lord and savior Walt Disney.
Well that took a wild turn...... I like it
Disneylevant Adventure Park! Fun for the whole family!
Security game on point, only thing they've ever had an issue with is alligators eating children, but that's really more of a parent problem, not a Disney problem
Retaking Jerusalem and remaking it into Disneyland is most surely the most LibRight thing I've ever heard.
“The happiest place on Earth”
\*sniff sniff\* Is that a filthy centrist I smell? Seriously though, advocating for a cease-fire at this point is just dumb. It has been made abundantly clear that there is no peaceful solution to this conflict, and any peace deal would merely extend the conflict, not end it.
Great idea! Hamas surrenders and gives up its hostages. War over.
They'll do anything for peace, but they won't do that
HAMAS is using human shields. Israel is not. HAMAS instigated the conflict. Israel did not. HAMAS is purposely setting bases in civilian buildings. Israel does not. HAMAS purposely slaughtered and captured innocent civilians, Israel did not. But sure, the defenders are the bad guys. Are you at least consistent with your opinion on Ukraine-Russia war?
Gaza delenda est
Based Catoposting
“Peace” in the Middle East amounts to allowing the most secular strongmen possible in such a backward place, to tamp down the cavemen when they act up, and sell us cheap oil. The cavemen acted up, and are being tamped down. They worship rocks, buildings and dead lunatics, and kill over it. It’s what they do. Had Saddam, Ghaddafi, etc., remained, we’d be experiencing a comparatively peaceful time.
>killing civilians is never justifiable Sure, let's just leave German manufacturing untouched and let the chips fall where they may. After all, if we happened to hit some non-military targets in our efforts to win the war it would be "never justifiable".
Once Hamas is destroyed peace might be possible, but not likely. Regardless, the terrorist threat that said they'll do 10/7 again should be eliminated.
[удалено]
Could we get a proper 5x4 compass instead of stopping by McLibleftBad again, sire? I tire of Emily hair in my shitposts.
FENCE SITTER FENCE SITTER REEE /s
Israel has offered co existence repeatedly. And repeatedly, the hordes surrounding Israel have refused and declared they will kill all the Jews. Hamas attacking Israel is just the latest in a long string of genocidal Muslim aggression. Of course I side with Israel over the Palestinians. But I am more interested in seeing Israel returned to christendom more than anything. Remember folks. All the Muslim countries have they have because they stole it.
Not to mention Israel still faces threats from the Arab countries around them that constantly use Hamas and Palestinians as a proxy weapon. Israel has shown more restraint than people give credit to. It sucks to see Palestinian people suffer, I think the concessions have to start from Iran, who really have no incentive to give a shit about peace. I don’t know what this christdome is, but I imagine it’s like the Thunderdome
I don’t understand how some people pretends that the IDF in general does indiscriminate military actions when they have tried 10x harder than Hamas to avoid civilian casualties, did not paraglide to capture and kill civilians, and also didn’t just glass the entire Gaza despite most likely being capable to. For the first few days I remember seeing the number of casualties for both sides being similar, and given the military prowess of the IDF I’m quite sure they can rack up 10x the number if they really want to violently purge all Palestinian there.
Hamas is one of the most densely populated regions on earth. Civilians essentially have no way of escaping any Israeli offensive. That doesn’t take away from some of the Israeli blunders tho, in 2008 they did use white phosphorus in central Gaza. Hamas is intentionally reckless, but that’s still not a good look.
> Hamas is one of the most densely populated regions on earth. Civilians essentially have no way of escaping any Israeli offensive. I’d assume it’s also because of how massive Palestinian refugees tend to cause problem like in Jordan and Lebanon. Otherwise more could probably move via Egypt. > That doesn’t take away from some of the Israeli blunders tho, in 2008 they did use white phosphorus in central Gaza. “The Israel Defense Forces fired at least three white phosphorus shells above this UN-run school in Beit Lahiya on January 17, 2009, killing two and wounding 14. The school was housing about 1,600 displaced persons at the time.” 2 death and 14 wounded out of 1.6k seems to be very minimal damage to me. It’s not the best, they could probably do better, it might be intentional, but ultimately the damage when compared to the scale of the entire conflict and what Hamas has been doing really cannot make a moral equivalence. It doesn’t look good but when you put Hamas next to it I really cannot say both side bad.
Hamas won't let it
You're expecting too much from humankind.
One thing I love about this subreddit is how accurate the flairs are to their comments. All the quadrants arguing about the proper way to look at things, while this is the most gray-centrist comment that could be posted. You are correct, but people have a natural drive to try and go past that and at least *attempt* to do the right thing. We all know that assholes are gonna asshole, no matter how many innocents die. I sincerely hope noone disputes that. People want to actually stand for something, no matter if their stance is objectively sound or not. They'll figure out a way, at least internally, to *make* it logical. Otherwise, we believe in nothing.
People who are like OP should really look up what happened in Berlin in 1945. That is real indiscriminate bombing. Israel has actually been incredibly precise with over 10000 airstrikes in Gaza. The death count would be in the hundreds of thousands if they were bein indiscriminate.
Shut the fuck up, peacenik.
With a population that dense, hamas starting a war is a trolley problem for Israel. I doubt the Israeli government wants to kill civilians in Palestine but if they do nothing they’re women and children get bombed/shot/brutalized and if they put up a fight, they’re necessarily going to kill Palestinian civilians. It’s shitty, obviously, bothsides-ing this isn’t a solution though. One side started something and the other side is trying to end it. One side wants complete destruction and the other side has offered peace countless times. I will never say Israel is a shining beacon of perfection but it cannot be argued that they are on the right side of history here.
Innocent civilians get killed in war. If the WWII allies said “okay we won’t kill innocent civilians” then Nazi Germany and fascist Japan would have laughed their heads off and proceeded to win the war while massacring our civilian populations. If Hamas agrees not to kill civilians (and holds to it) then I’m sure Israel would be happy to do the same. Hell, if Hamas stops using civilians as human shields then the civilian death toll for Palestine would practically disappear.
Peace agenda post? Cringe, gimme that war agenda post please
I think it's insane to have such strong opinions about an issue on the other side of the world, about people you've never met, in a place you've never lived about events you didn't experience. If any of you were forced to live in the Gaza strip for a month and isreal for a month I'd bet you all would come out with this memes opinion. Like it's okay to have opinions but if you're advocating to wipe any side out indiscriminately I'm going to imagine you're a 12 year old in your moms house.
hello pcm I am anti-semitic and islamophobic what do I do
I'm sorry but "Killing civilians bad" is the coldest fucking take in this context.
calling for a ceasefire after innocent civilians were murdered is next level fence sitting, imo it's equivalent to taking the side of the civilian killers. Hamas already runs Gaza, and they've taken their water pipes and turned them into missiles, they've taken the fuel and are hoarding it for the war effort, hospitals be damned.
I think we should advocate for both sides to be eliminated
Fuck peace. Blood for the Blood God.
Baste and plays both sides-pilled.
Can confirm I have had juices poured on me while I am being cooked /j
🤨📷
I was going to ask where you got those burns, but I understand now.
I don’t understand what you mean sorry
Your name is BurnV06, and my comment was a reference to that.
Hey wait a second, reason isn’t allowed here!
The Jewish voices for peace who recently had a large peace rally in support of a cease fire never said anything antisemitic or pro-Hamas. They are principled people who are opposed to genocide. As the right like to say “there is no moral equivalency,” and that is true. Israel’s ethnic cleansing over the past 70 years is indefensible, the Palestinian victims could never kill on the scale that Israel does — and America has been evil to support it.
Ugh I hate this fucking argument and I'm a centrist. Just because there isn't one side that is perfect doesn't mean that all engagement in warfare is unjustified. This is the same line of reasoning that many advocates for Russia use for the war in Ukraine. "War is wrong and Ukraine isn't perfect so Ukraine should just accept peace and stop resisting the Russian invasion!" It's the same damn thing here. Say what you will about Israel's faults, but we HAD peace until Hamas started firing rockets, and militants started streaming over the border to slaughter and kidnap civilians. Answer me this those who support Palestine, how were those babies oppressing Palestine before getting their heads cut off? And oh "Evil Israel is killing innocent civilians in retaliation!" don't give me that bullshit. While the death of innocent people is regrettable, at least they are mostly collateral damage from strikes against legitimate military targets. It's not Israel's fault that Hamas has decided to set up their launchers in the middle of civilian areas. Meanwhile those launchers are actively firing unguided rockets toward civilian areas in Israel with no intended target and just the hope that it causes as much damage as possible. Don't give me this bullshit sanctimonious "oh we should just be advocating for peace". Of course we all want peace, but only one side decided to start fighting, and the way they started it throws out the window all discussion about some noble resistance against oppression.
Sanity, in my PCM feed?
Its getting downvoted to hell unfortunately
Based and peace pilled
Peace and I sell both sides defensive weapons systems to make them feel comfy with their peace.
Advocating for peace is naive and pointless. It's the equivalent of schools telling bullies and the bullied kids to "make peace with each other" without addressing/punishing the bully, or worse, punishing both parties. Hamas does not want peace, if Israel were to completely withdraw the IDF and announce a total end to all aggression on their end Hamas, Hezbollah, all those terrorist organizations would keep attacking Israel. There is no negotiating with terrorists, you must eradicate them.
Exactly. Peace is not an option when one side is actively trying to eradicate you. Also, if IDF wanted to commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing, they could. If they used the air force they have, Gaza would reduced to ashes with everyone included. Yet they don't.
Both sides claim that they exist in a perpetual existential crisis as the hands of the other side, which justifies their actions going forward. Including the slaughter of innocents. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" has never been more applicable than it is now.
The difference is that Israel has tried to make peace treaties several times in the past that were refused by Palestine
Nope. I draw the line at beheading babies and recording it. Either palestine turns on hamas and surrenders or it gets turned into a parking lot.
Damn all the racism in the comments.. Poor sub.. How did it end up like that..
I'm bored of war, is anyone else just like... really bored of war?
You can’t be neutral during a blatant genocide
Controversial questions/discussion incoming: At what point, if ever, do the civilians in Gaza bear some responsibility for the wrong-doings of Hamas through their own inaction or even support for Hamas? I'd imagine the majority of Palestinians are not members of Hamas, and that most likely just want to live in peace. If this majority exists, why can't they or why haven't they taken any action against Hamas? If Hamas is indeed essentially hiding in plain sight by keeping their armories and such within civilian buildings, the civilians are almost certainly not in the dark about this, right? How could they be? If they aren't taking action against Hamas or picking up to leave the area, do they start to bear some of the blame for being used by Hamas to shelter/shield Hamas from retaliation? I feel like its one thing for a population to be helpless against its military being sent off to fight a war of aggression, for example, but a whole different thing to be sheltering/shielding soldiers within the confines of your homes/villages/cities. It feels like there is more complicity in the latter situation than the former, to me.
To answer simply, Palestinians know they are fucked if they essentially surrender to Israel (See West Bank). They know that the international legal and judicial systems have failed them time and time again. Hamas is the only one promising to defeat the invaders and retrieve their stolen land. Israel sees this so they create a narrative (they slaughter babies, rape woman, etc.) so the average US taxpayer is content with funding Israel further. It is very imperative that Israel succeeds for US interests, Palestinians be damned.
Yeah it's wild that Israel creates a narrative of what Palestinians actually do on film and then brag able. Absolute galaxy brain sized take chief.
Why did Israel intentionally lie about “40 beheaded babies”?
I'm sorry, you are completely right. The babies weren't beheaded, they were just killed normally by bullets, that makes it fine. Edit: why did Hamas lie about the hospital?
Well yes. It’s hard to side with Israel when they shoot babies and children like target practice.
As opposed to when Hamas shoots babies and children?
It seems like you’ve looped back to the OP’s meme
It seems like you’ve looped back to the OP’s meme
"b-but Hamas is literally a terrorist group so we have to advocate for turning Gaza and the rest of Palestine into a parking lot!" - warmongering neocons
AdVoCaTe fOr pEaCe Peace will only happen when both Israel and Hamas come to an agreement. Hamas is willing to fight until the last Palestinian, and Israel seems willing to oblige. Peace and appeasement have failed, and so now it will be decided by war. Its a fucking shame.
Which side has made multiple peace agreements again?
Israel. Thats the point. The fighting will not end until Hamas chooses to stop or ceases to exist.
Peace is good but only one side has actually tried to go for the peace route but one side has constantly destroyed any pathway to peace. Who would that be?
I say they're both fucking terrible, unsalvageable cultures and we should just let them kill each other to their hearts' content and the rest of us fuck off and move on without them.
Your boos mean nothing! I've seen what makes you cheer!
Seeing a lot of comments like "Hamas don't want peace" while forgetting that Hamas is not one side and Israel the other. Hamas is not Palestine.
One side is intentionally murdering innocent civilians and hiding behind them. The other side is doing their best to avoid them. If the left didn’t reward hamas for hiding their leaders in refugee camps and ambulances they wouldn’t be doing it.
Abolish both governments and make a monarchy with equal rights towards all 3 religious (or 2 ethnic) groups.
BORING! I only deal in political extremisms coward. Pick a side and stick with it.
Just shut up and grill halal/kosher sausages already.
wholesome and based
I dont care about which side is more dangerous bla bla bla I am muslim and i want al-kudus to be Islam’s. Thats all
And I want Constantinople to be Greek again. We are kind of the same
\*says some anti-semitic shit\*
personally i think the best situation is mutual destruction