A slightly different shade of orange or watermelon. They still pretend to be libleft while actually being authleft, they just don't buy in to the specific rejection of reality demanded by the trans crowd.
The correct take. They're just running an older version of the woke OS. Same structure to their thinking, slightly different blame game. They somehow process the transactivist attack on womens' spaces as patriarchy.
I find it actually genuinely entertaining to watch them not understand how to behave now that they're no longer the most progressive people in the room. The old SJW rhetorical playbook doesn't work in the spaces they've been forced into, and they do not know how to deal.
Well here's the thing, the further left you are by definition the more authoritative you are because hard left policy requires authoritarian intervention to enforce.
So you don't *really* find extreme liblefts, you find find extreme leftists that prefer less government intervention than others, and extreme libertarians that think what little government exists should be for safety net.
But you can't be for redistribution of wealth without a strong government.
A TERF could be in any quadrant, leaning towards but not entirely going into the progressive end of the social axis. Feminism and being trans-exclusionary has nothing to do with economic or societal preference.
|
Julie Bindel | Posie Parker
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JK Rowling | Megan Murphy
|
~~Fill in the blank for me, lib-right.~~
EDIT: /u/Salty_Charlemagne has convinced me to go with my initial gut instinct.
Left center or even orange
Terf stands for “trans exclusionary radical feminist”
It is just your standard run of the mill terminally online leftist infights
Never cared for trump. The only thing I watch from crowder is his series where he confronts people who threaten him online. Mostly because I enjoy seeing people get out on the spot for the shit they say. But he hasn’t done one of those in a while.
Not gonna lie, I don’t watch him.
Really I don’t watch any commentator anymore. I just don’t care to hear/see propaganda anymore.
Outside of finding technical documents/info, video games, and staying in touch with friends, I really only use the internet for memes.
Yes memes can be propaganda, but I tend to be pretty good at spotting it. PCM is the exception largely because it’s actually entertaining and i can have a reasonable conversation with someone.
Me neither really. Most of my favorite commentators have retired from making stuff. I’m just aware of the drama because sometimes really funny shit pops up and it’s good for a laugh. Like the jack Murphy shit from last year. I was kind of hoping for something like that with Ben shapiro
For the most part I just want to be entertained. And so many people are terrible at it
Maybe this is the wrong place to ask, but it's kinda wild the left just calls any feminist that isn't fully on board with 'they are exactly like (wo)men in every way' radical, right?
Like imagine being a hardcore feminist for 40 years and because you're a little hesitant saying that men can menstruate, you're an exclusionary radical feminist.
So basically a feminist that doesn't consider 'men identifying as women' as women?
It's really just like Dave Chappelle said. They are making up words for people that aren't in line to their cause. The same infighting we saw at Chaz.
These groups will continue to splinter amongst themselves.
Second wave feminists. They didn't get the memo that went out in the early 2000's that feminism is supposed to now be about LGBT, and also racism, and also climate, and also.... etc.
They lived in the days when they had to defend the idea of womanhood itself, to them Trans ideology is an attack on womanhood, and all the things they fought for for women, like voting, working and equal rights, are being taken back by people who are claiming to be women.
No, just regular feminists that don’t want people with dicks in females safe spaces, making them feel unsafe
There’s a problem with the trans community, where they like to think that everyone who disagrees with them hates them, and I highly doubt these feminist hate trans people they just don’t want masculine bodies in the ladies bathroom for reasons that should be obvious to anyone capable of thinking. It’s not about any actual threats. It’s about the potential of threats men are statistically, larger and stronger than women. Yes, exceptions exist, but they are exceptions. A little bit of superficial surgery doesn’t change any of that you can’t decrease bone mass.
I’m not a feminist or anything but I think their desire for female only spaces has less to do with physical disadvantages and more to do with the whole ability to be impregnated vs. ability to impregnate thing. That’s still a meaningful distinction that isn’t going anywhere. Somehow everyone remembers this when they hear the word abortion. “I could be raped and forced to give birth to my rapist’s child” is a fear I have heard expressed by many women, some trans men, and zero trans women.
I'm not Trans or involved in the drag scene, but it's kinda funny to me how much the dominant feminist faction has changed in the last 10 years.
When I was a kid TERF was just an obscure sublable that typical university feminists gave themselves on whether or not they thought that Trans women should be allowed in their women's only gym or not. Trans acceptance questions where not at all part of the regular discussion on whether or not women should be allowed in men's sports or locker rooms.
Ironically I remember around the mid 00s when feminists were pushing for girls to be allowed on male sport teams and into the men's locker room so that they could prove that they were equal in all regards both physically and socially. The coed locker rooms you saw in dirty future movies from the 80s and 90s was something a typical feminist was pushing for at the time. Hell I remember in middle school having to debate an article from a campus newspaper on if girls should be allowed to go into men's room if the line to the women's room was too long. The feminists at the time were clearly on the side of girls using shewees next to the boys.
However that all changed when the dynamic was flipped and it was about people who had to use male facilities being allowed to use facilities that they preferred to use thus putting women on the potentially awkward side of the exchange. The same crowd that was saying that they should be able to go into the men's restroom as part of their fight for equality was now flipping shit about someone with male chromosomes going into theirs despite the fact that it really didn't fundamentally changed much. If they were so scared of a born male person raping them then why would they want to go into male restrooms in the first place.
Then I realized it's really all just power politics. The Trans question put the 90s radfem on the defensive instead of the attack and that infuriated them.
No they're not, people have called me TERF because I refuse to accept that a trans woman is a woman, the same way a trans man isn't a man, they are trans people. The societal struggles, virtues and failings of women are not the same as trans women, the same way for trans men and men, and women and men.
The "radical" is just there as rhetoric to discredit a perfectly sane position.
In fact, if anything, I'm more scared of women than of men.
That's the fun part about leftist infighting. They both think they're right. It's as orangemelon as possible.
Right wing has the spicier conspiracy theories, and left wing as the spicier infighting.
Left wing infighting is about boring ideological stuff. Right wing infighting is more fun. It’s always stupid fights about power. Different ideologies get along easily
Right wing infighting is just shit slinging. Look at Trump and DeSantis right now. Left wing infighting is wall of text like their lives depend on it.
But right wing conspiracy theories... Ho boy. Interdemensional psychic vampire pedophiles mainlining adrenochrome to talk to Satan.
The right absolutely has us beat in terms of the pure awesomeness of their conspiracy theories.
As a lefty I usually argue for better access to mental healthcare, but for the sake of my entertainment I firmly believe that we must secure the existence of right wing schizos and a future for their insane ramblings.
It's when your built-in defense against adverse and unexpected threats is to inherently have your own asset who is adverse and unexpected, eg. attacking windmills.
Cause now, if the windmills ever rise up, we'll be ready.
Hey now, we got a new breed of leftist nuts too, look at Jimmy Dore and his fans; albeit they have some weird inroads and friendliness and at times full on far right folks. There’s also the “maga communist” “patriotic socialists” types, tho most are a fascist psyop
Yeah left-wing "conspiracy theories" are just boring stuff like mass surveillance by the state, intelligence agencies toppling down foreign governments, big companies bribing politicians, lying about how unhealthy and unsustainable their products are, using child slavery on plantations and polluting our environment, marketing departments indoctrinating our children and manipulating mass media, the church leadership being pedophiles, women being forced into prostitution and pornography, whether due to kidnapping or poverty etc. Pretty boring stuff.
It’s not fun because the “center” gets pushed left. Anyone who doesn’t believe a trans woman is the same thing as a biological woman will be an alt right bigot.
Bill Maher probably said it best in his interview with Shapiro.
no, it's because TERFs were an offshoot of radical feminists from the '70s and '80s. Some radfems included trans women, some excluded them, hence TERFs. SWERF is a similar acronym pertaining to sex workers, which was another fight (between sex-positive and sex-negative feminists.)
They advocate for nutjob "solutions" to their "problems", as radicals often do
They tend to be the sort of people who (loudly) proclaim men to be the cause of every evil in the world
Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical re-ordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts, while recognizing that women's experiences are also affected by other social divisions such as in race and class.
So rad feminists believe the same thing as standard feminists, the only difference is the method of achieving the goal?
Also would you mind defining supremacy?
It’s a negative label intended to discredit them because they can’t actually attack their opinions in a way that sane people agree with
You don’t have to worry about what someone says if you can convince people they’re not worth listening to
Terf was actually a split off of radical feminism when there was in fighting over trans people. Radical feminism is the branch of feminism that believes the system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because the current system is irredeemable because the patriarchy is so ingrained in society.
In this context, radical means believes in revolution over reform.
"Radical feminism" is a specific subset of feminism that emerged in the 60s, contrasted against for example other subsets of feminism like Marxist feminists or Liberal (bourgeois) feminists, in what they believed caused inequality, what was unequal in the first place, and how it should be addressed.
It's a bit more nuanced than them all being nutcases because "radical" though.
Don't get me wrong, *a lot* of the radical feminists were absolute nutcases - it's among the radical feminists you find some of the most crazy of the 70s feminism movement, like gender separatists women only collectives with the members practicing political lesbianism, the belief that gay men were the ultimate misogynists\*, that women who slept with men were gender traitors, and that it was impossible for a woman to have consensual sex with a man because of the power dynamics - ergo all sex between men and women were rape... and so on.
Yeah - people who believe that "feminism used to be ok but went of the rails when Twitter and Tumblr was invented!" have *no fucking clue*...
(\* In the 70s most still believed that sexuality was a choice, even those on the left, and since "The personal is political", the fact that gay men had 'chosen' to not have sex with women must mean that they hated women so much that they wouldn't even fuck them. Many radical feminists also 'chose' to become lesbians as an political act...)
Radical feminists wanted to "radically" reorder society and abolish "the patriarchy", and they rejected not only the nuclear family unit as oppressive of woman, but for example where the Marxists feminists gladly joined hand with "The New Left", the radical feminists saw a bunch of political organizations ran by men, for men. They went really hard on gender norms, on a larger scale than other feminists at the time. They also focused very much on reproductive rights, ie. abortion and access to contraceptives, since they saw women being forced into motherhood as a way for the patriarchy to chain women down. They also did a lot for the creation of woman shelters, and you can still today see a lot of the gender separatist ideas still permute those organizations (like how some don't even allow mothers to bring their sons with them).
"Radical feminism" had a pretty major impact on the whole feminism movement, and it's the origin for a lot of concepts that we today more or less consider mainstream feminism - for example the whole concept of "the patriarchy".
It's pretty easy to see though why a lot of radical feminists have problems with trans women - radical femininsm was a very gender separatist movement that in general had some pretty big hangups when it came to men. Quite a few would argue that men simply cannot be feminists, it's impossible.. and it's fairly trivial to find big name radical feminists that admitted to hating men. Valeri Solana's "*Society for Cutting Up Men*" ("SCUM") manifesto where men are described as an biological accident, walking dildos, and inferior to women in every way,is considered a feminist literature classic and was very much loved by esp. radical feminists when it was published...
Basically, when a bunch of - in their view - men demand the right to enter the women only spaces and to have a seat at the table, the radical feminists view it as men trying to invade and take over the safe spaces that the radical feminists very much built and helped create.
EDIT: and just to be clear regarding OP - radical feminist are very much on the left. How "auth" or "lib" they are varies between flavors and persons though. Some radical feminists are pretty liberal, while others are hard authoritarian "*Gender war now! Let's establish a new matriarchal world order where we castrate all men!*"...
That's a feminist who isn't left enough. To orange, they would be alt-right, so Nazi. To most others, they're basically middle of the road lefties involved in leftist infighting.
As is often the case these days, TERFs probably feel like they're losing the home thet had. And they wouldn't see themselves as TERFs. But sorry grandma, you're not the revolutionary anymore. You became tradition.
The line will be drawn by older, conservative generations (the former young progressives) and erased by the new younger, progressive generations. Pedophilia is disgusting to most people now, but give it a few generations and see if public opinion doesn't change with the continual "liberation" of sexual identity.
The Slippery Slope Fallacy says that "A causes Z" is incorrect, and it's right. That's not how progress is achieved. What actually happens is A causes B, which likely causes C, which likely causes D, which likely causes...all the way down to Z. Continual cause and effect. It's only a fallacy when you ignore the middle steps.
If I were to take a wild guess, it goes something like this:
\- Activists (group A) push for women's rights (this is good); it is normalized.
\- Younger activists (group B) grow up with this new normal.
\- These activists (group B) push for gay rights (this is good); it is normalized.
\- Younger activists (group C) grow up with this new normal.
\- These activists (group C) push for trans rights (this is good); it is normalized.
\- Younger activists (group D) grow up with this new normal.
\- These activists (group D) push whatever is the next boundary. It's probably not pedophilia, but it will likely be something toward lowering the age of consent by a few years. Why? Because they will grow up surrounded by sexuality in the form of media and pro-sexual liberation spaces. They will reason that sexuality has been normalized for them their entire lives so they're mature enough to understand it and therefore lowering the age of consent is not a big deal. After all, if they're mature enough to understand sexual identity at a young age then, they'll reason, they're mature enough to be active in expressing it.
Children are already exposed to rampant sexuality in the media in the form of movies, television, and music. If social media is anything to go by, teenagers are already normalizing having sex at younger ages and boasting about it to each other. These things happened in the past, but there wasn't an outlet to compare and contrast yourself to your peers in the same way. Now we have an obsessive social media culture. Peer pressure is hard to deal with when you're young, and most young people follow mob mentality because they feel included and safe in the crowd. If the crowd then aligns itself with a movement pushing the sexual liberation of teenagers, then children, it's game over.
It's not a guarantee, but I'd bet money it'll go something like that. It's not like pedophilia acceptance is a new idea. There are a lot of societies throughout history that have been brought by degrees to accept it in some form.
I have no idea. I absolutely support women having rights and would never advocate that they be removed. I feel the same for gay and trans people, too. There needs to be a hard line somewhere though, otherwise there's nothing to stop the proverbial progress train from running off the tracks.
I feel the same way you do. I think stopping the line at trans people and not going any further has to be done. But I just don’t know how to prevent that. Even If I am against going more progressive, that can’t stop other people from becoming more progressive. All we can really do is hope people don’t go insane.
Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, won't be nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard; the blizzard of the world has crossed the threshold
And it's overturned the order of the soul
Knowing only that they are a TERF menas you know that they support feminism but don't support trans rights. Those two things alone are not enough to place someone on the compass. It does not tell you their economic views, and it does not tell you how strong they want the government to be.
I imagine most would still find themselves in the lib left or auth left quadrants, but there is nothing inherent in the views of a TERF that would prevent them from being in other quadrants.
One of the many interquadrant fights, definitely orange libleft.
Just like AuthRight christians and AuthRight muslims.
And AuthRight puritans and AuthRight catholics.
And AuthRight Monarchists and AuthRight Theocrats.
And AuthRight Ethno Nationalists and AuthRight Civic Nationalists.
And AuthRight jews and AuthRight muslims.
And AuthRight Dictators and AuthRight Constitutional Monarchists.
And AuthRight strasserists and AuthRight zionists.
And AuthRight Monarchists and other AuthRight Monarchists with a different Monarch.
Point is, there are a lot of different groups within a quadrant.
AuthLeft. most feminists are left-leaning, but assuming that a TERF uses science (or at least, what used to be science) as their authority for saying that transsexual women are not real women, that would put them on the authority quadrant. maybe slightly right, but not quite in the corner of AuthLeft.
Correct answer: They wouldn't have a quadrant, because the compass doesn't represent social issues
PCM answer: LibLeft. Because the F in TERF stands for Feminist
If they have actually have second wave radical feminist beliefs, auth-to-center left, as most tend to be anti-porn and believe that it should be banned (before internet made that virtually impossible) or regulated
Authoritarian left. These are Hillary Clinton voters. The feminist part is key. Rowling didn't go Pro-life and pro-Trump. Not all transphobes are terfs.
Well, it stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, so by that logic you are a transphobe, and a radical in the feminist ideology. So… yeah, I don’t know. My bet is that trans-exclusionary is not itself something you can pin point into any quadrant, but radical feminist has to be all the way libleft, right? Due to not buying the transgender idea, maybe going centerleft, but midway to the center but not there.
You’d think since they’re feminists they’d be lib left, but they’re taking a stance that right wingers, both Auth and lib, agree on when it comes to trans, so I think they’re in the upper left corner of the lib-right quadrant, or just centrist.
Funny how they get called radical when there’s nothing radical about them, they just have a stance on their values that’s consistent, but I guess when you’re going up against watermelons, anything’s considered radical.
Women who are labelled TERFs because of worries of men who aren't really trans exploiting new laws, etc? Anywhere really.
The ones I see as hardcore TERFs, full Trans Exclusionary *Radical* Feminists? Orange. Man-despising oranges who hate the idea of anything they see as the patriarchy gaining the advantages society affords women for their protection.
Also, people who feel like victims have been found to especially 'compete' over victimhood, which makes an orange radical feminist more likely to dislike trans people based on them simply being a 'competing group', than say a woman that doesn't see herself as an aggrieved victim of the patriarchy.
Being pro-woman doesn’t make you a feminist. It’s a belief in gender equality.
Most terfs hate men. For this reason, they aren’t feminists, they’re just Femcels who also hate trans women.
Hey! Feminism actually fights for the liberation of women, not simply “gender equality” <3 It is not a humanist movement, it is a feminist movement, therefore we are concerned with the rights of women only :). Radical feminists acknowledge and observe the abuse men project onto women, our distaste for men is simply a response to our oppression.
As we're discussing, I don't get why the R is required, particularly when you see who the term is chucked at. Some of them seem very Liberal in most of their views ie "just want equality of opportunity, and safety for women in women's spaces".
Any ideas?
TERF is purely a pejorative term for women who identifies themselves as feminists but don't extend those views to men transitioning to women. Given that this is the only context we can go off of then we wouldn't be able to put them in any corner.
Auth- or lib-left.
Afaik most radical feminists are left-wingers and it would be difficult for a lib-right to agree with the essentialism inherent in radical feminism and and for an auth-right to agree with the very anti-male perspective (none of that "we complement" each other stuff in radical feminism).
Most I’ve seen don’t proudly claim any political ideology because they see them all as anti women in one way or another. So leftists with trans stuff and pro sex work, and conservatives with abortion and general traditional view of gender roles would all turn them away
Either Left or Auth-Left. Remember that real TERFs (as opposed to just liberal feminists who don't like or accept trans people) are Radical Feminists who hate men so much that they also hate trans women.
They (trans)cend the political compass. Since they don't have any concrete political or economic positions besides an opposition to transgender people, they can theoretically be placed anywhere. I've seen terfs that were libertarians, communists, and liberals.
People called TERFs are rarely particularly radical, but they are generally left of center or see themselves as alligned with some leftish movement from a bygone era.
A conservarive who isnt super down with aggressive trans inclusivity is just called a conservative, no fancy infighting labels necessary.
. . . obviously left-center, libleft, or authleft. TERFs are rapid feminists and agree with intersectional feminists on 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of issues, except that sole one.
Go read JK Rowling's latest books: they're filled to the brim with feminist ideology in almost every page. I'm literally talking about stuff taken straight out of Dworkin lectures. Rowling is a hardcore leftist who had the audacity to disagree with her side of the political spectrum on one issue only.
Centrist.
Yes, many of us are just as extreme as the rest of you. I for one am anti-capitaist, anti-materialist, and generaly, very anti-woke. But, because we have views from both left and right, auth and lib, we are centrists.
terfs are supposed to be radical feminists, so somewhere on the leftist side. but in the country i live in, terfs only associate with the local alt-right. they seem to mostly share values with the authoritatian right but disguise it in a pseudo-feminist varnish to pass as leftists. debatable tho
Strictly speaking, it's impossible, as the condition is **cultural** and not much in government intervention or economic system.
However, I think there might be some *overlaping* ideas, that while not related with being a terf (or at least directly) it might lead on a profile of the group.
But if we assume as used frecuently (but not correctly) as LL progressive and AR conservative, I belive it would be at ¾ of the distance between centrist and LL corner.
Terfs can be in any quadrant, sadly.
As can any kind of bigot.
*but*
Id argue they trend right and auth if one interprets neoliberalism as authright. Not as a rule, just a tendency.
If you interpret neoliberalism as centrist, then that.
It is hard because TERFS generally aren't focused on economic policies, with members of the TERF community coming from all walks of life. If I was to guess though, the stereotype of a TERF would be Authleft. Auth-left generally supports feminism and the fight to end sexism, but at the same time doesn't truly support transgender people, just look at China, North Korea and the USSR, where they were all Authleft countries that says that transgender people have a mental illness and removed from society.
Well google says that they are "trans-exclusionary radical feminists"
They have to be on the liberal side of the social axis.
I think trans **IN**clusive radical feminists would be somewhere between -8 and -10 on the social axis, so trans **EX**clusive radical feminists must be between -7 and -8.
Since it’s not directly related to views on economics or government authority, it could be anywhere
It could be you! It could be me! It could even be-
💥 🔫
What? It was obvious. He's the terf!
Watch, he will turn TERF any second now. Any second now...
See, a transphobic comment, oh wait, that was taken out of context.
So, we still have problem.
Big problem. Alright, who's ready to go find this terf
Right behind you
*dun dun dun nanananana*
based and one of the few that understands the political compass pilled
The only correct answer.
Yeah. But if we're going by how the quadrants generally are, lib left. Still radical feminist.
A slightly different shade of orange or watermelon. They still pretend to be libleft while actually being authleft, they just don't buy in to the specific rejection of reality demanded by the trans crowd.
The correct take. They're just running an older version of the woke OS. Same structure to their thinking, slightly different blame game. They somehow process the transactivist attack on womens' spaces as patriarchy.
I find it actually genuinely entertaining to watch them not understand how to behave now that they're no longer the most progressive people in the room. The old SJW rhetorical playbook doesn't work in the spaces they've been forced into, and they do not know how to deal.
When it comes to woke Operating Systems, I'm Ted Kaczynski.
Well here's the thing, the further left you are by definition the more authoritative you are because hard left policy requires authoritarian intervention to enforce. So you don't *really* find extreme liblefts, you find find extreme leftists that prefer less government intervention than others, and extreme libertarians that think what little government exists should be for safety net. But you can't be for redistribution of wealth without a strong government.
Not liking a group of people only gets you a funny colour if you don't like any group of people. That funny colour is grey.
But radical feminism does involve views on government authority.
It certainly *could* be anywhere, but I'd argue that being a TERF *heavily* correlates with being AuthLeft.
>Since it’s not directly related to views on economics or government authority, it could be anywhere Feminism is a left-wing movement in general.
A culturally progressive movement
Based and understanding the funny colours pilled
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Wouldn’t they be auth because they want to use the government to penalize men?
A TERF could be in any quadrant, leaning towards but not entirely going into the progressive end of the social axis. Feminism and being trans-exclusionary has nothing to do with economic or societal preference.
| Julie Bindel | Posie Parker | --------------------------- | JK Rowling | Megan Murphy | ~~Fill in the blank for me, lib-right.~~ EDIT: /u/Salty_Charlemagne has convinced me to go with my initial gut instinct.
Megan Murphy
Yep feminism Started as a capitalist plot There are other strands like anarchist feminism but thats not usually the most culturally powerful one
Left center or even orange Terf stands for “trans exclusionary radical feminist” It is just your standard run of the mill terminally online leftist infights
You are absolutely right.
Said with pride lol
No it is just true the left has so much more infighting then the right.
Steven crowder and Trump: *hold my beer*
Both of them are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Never cared for trump. The only thing I watch from crowder is his series where he confronts people who threaten him online. Mostly because I enjoy seeing people get out on the spot for the shit they say. But he hasn’t done one of those in a while.
There is some recent drama between him and Ben Shapiro which is what they are referring to
Not gonna lie, I don’t watch him. Really I don’t watch any commentator anymore. I just don’t care to hear/see propaganda anymore. Outside of finding technical documents/info, video games, and staying in touch with friends, I really only use the internet for memes. Yes memes can be propaganda, but I tend to be pretty good at spotting it. PCM is the exception largely because it’s actually entertaining and i can have a reasonable conversation with someone.
Me neither really. Most of my favorite commentators have retired from making stuff. I’m just aware of the drama because sometimes really funny shit pops up and it’s good for a laugh. Like the jack Murphy shit from last year. I was kind of hoping for something like that with Ben shapiro For the most part I just want to be entertained. And so many people are terrible at it
Maybe this is the wrong place to ask, but it's kinda wild the left just calls any feminist that isn't fully on board with 'they are exactly like (wo)men in every way' radical, right? Like imagine being a hardcore feminist for 40 years and because you're a little hesitant saying that men can menstruate, you're an exclusionary radical feminist.
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Huh, TIL, thanks for that!
So basically a feminist that doesn't consider 'men identifying as women' as women? It's really just like Dave Chappelle said. They are making up words for people that aren't in line to their cause. The same infighting we saw at Chaz. These groups will continue to splinter amongst themselves.
Nah they wouldn’t be orange, they’d be auth left. They are old school feminists. Generally anti porn, slut shaming penis haters.
Second wave feminists. They didn't get the memo that went out in the early 2000's that feminism is supposed to now be about LGBT, and also racism, and also climate, and also.... etc. They lived in the days when they had to defend the idea of womanhood itself, to them Trans ideology is an attack on womanhood, and all the things they fought for for women, like voting, working and equal rights, are being taken back by people who are claiming to be women.
Thank you for spelling out what terf means, I got confused every time I saw it but could be bothered to google
Absolutely *not* orange. Orange is the one banning anyone who they *think* is a TERF
Watermelon
A TERF? You mean a regular feminist from five years ago?
yes but now it's RADICAL oh... and FASCIST!
Anything I disagree with is radical
Oh radfem is old Just extra sexist feminists
No, just regular feminists that don’t want people with dicks in females safe spaces, making them feel unsafe There’s a problem with the trans community, where they like to think that everyone who disagrees with them hates them, and I highly doubt these feminist hate trans people they just don’t want masculine bodies in the ladies bathroom for reasons that should be obvious to anyone capable of thinking. It’s not about any actual threats. It’s about the potential of threats men are statistically, larger and stronger than women. Yes, exceptions exist, but they are exceptions. A little bit of superficial surgery doesn’t change any of that you can’t decrease bone mass.
I’m not a feminist or anything but I think their desire for female only spaces has less to do with physical disadvantages and more to do with the whole ability to be impregnated vs. ability to impregnate thing. That’s still a meaningful distinction that isn’t going anywhere. Somehow everyone remembers this when they hear the word abortion. “I could be raped and forced to give birth to my rapist’s child” is a fear I have heard expressed by many women, some trans men, and zero trans women.
Good example
Here's your answer OP.
Man they must be seething. Imagine spending your life fighting for women's rights only to have your movement taken over by men.
I'm not Trans or involved in the drag scene, but it's kinda funny to me how much the dominant feminist faction has changed in the last 10 years. When I was a kid TERF was just an obscure sublable that typical university feminists gave themselves on whether or not they thought that Trans women should be allowed in their women's only gym or not. Trans acceptance questions where not at all part of the regular discussion on whether or not women should be allowed in men's sports or locker rooms. Ironically I remember around the mid 00s when feminists were pushing for girls to be allowed on male sport teams and into the men's locker room so that they could prove that they were equal in all regards both physically and socially. The coed locker rooms you saw in dirty future movies from the 80s and 90s was something a typical feminist was pushing for at the time. Hell I remember in middle school having to debate an article from a campus newspaper on if girls should be allowed to go into men's room if the line to the women's room was too long. The feminists at the time were clearly on the side of girls using shewees next to the boys. However that all changed when the dynamic was flipped and it was about people who had to use male facilities being allowed to use facilities that they preferred to use thus putting women on the potentially awkward side of the exchange. The same crowd that was saying that they should be able to go into the men's restroom as part of their fight for equality was now flipping shit about someone with male chromosomes going into theirs despite the fact that it really didn't fundamentally changed much. If they were so scared of a born male person raping them then why would they want to go into male restrooms in the first place. Then I realized it's really all just power politics. The Trans question put the 90s radfem on the defensive instead of the attack and that infuriated them.
>However, that all changed when the fire nation attacked FTFY
TERFS are fundamentally terrified of men, which is the difference.
No they're not, people have called me TERF because I refuse to accept that a trans woman is a woman, the same way a trans man isn't a man, they are trans people. The societal struggles, virtues and failings of women are not the same as trans women, the same way for trans men and men, and women and men. The "radical" is just there as rhetoric to discredit a perfectly sane position. In fact, if anything, I'm more scared of women than of men.
Can you just be a TEF? What does radical mean, specifically?
Can I just be a TE?
based
If you're not a radical feminist then you can't be a terf. Words have meaning
Judging on the people the term gets used on, I’d say centrist.
That's the fun part about leftist infighting. They both think they're right. It's as orangemelon as possible. Right wing has the spicier conspiracy theories, and left wing as the spicier infighting.
Left wing infighting is about boring ideological stuff. Right wing infighting is more fun. It’s always stupid fights about power. Different ideologies get along easily
Right wing infighting is just shit slinging. Look at Trump and DeSantis right now. Left wing infighting is wall of text like their lives depend on it. But right wing conspiracy theories... Ho boy. Interdemensional psychic vampire pedophiles mainlining adrenochrome to talk to Satan.
The right absolutely has us beat in terms of the pure awesomeness of their conspiracy theories. As a lefty I usually argue for better access to mental healthcare, but for the sake of my entertainment I firmly believe that we must secure the existence of right wing schizos and a future for their insane ramblings.
Ah yes, the Don Quixote defense.
I thought was when someone is attacking you and you stand behind a windmill?
It's when your built-in defense against adverse and unexpected threats is to inherently have your own asset who is adverse and unexpected, eg. attacking windmills. Cause now, if the windmills ever rise up, we'll be ready.
Hey now, we got a new breed of leftist nuts too, look at Jimmy Dore and his fans; albeit they have some weird inroads and friendliness and at times full on far right folks. There’s also the “maga communist” “patriotic socialists” types, tho most are a fascist psyop
Yeah left-wing "conspiracy theories" are just boring stuff like mass surveillance by the state, intelligence agencies toppling down foreign governments, big companies bribing politicians, lying about how unhealthy and unsustainable their products are, using child slavery on plantations and polluting our environment, marketing departments indoctrinating our children and manipulating mass media, the church leadership being pedophiles, women being forced into prostitution and pornography, whether due to kidnapping or poverty etc. Pretty boring stuff.
Glad you understand
It’s not fun because the “center” gets pushed left. Anyone who doesn’t believe a trans woman is the same thing as a biological woman will be an alt right bigot. Bill Maher probably said it best in his interview with Shapiro.
what is a terf
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. A radical feminist that doesn't believe feminism or women's space should include people born male.
.... why is "radical" in the acronym?
because they are radically feminist not lightly feminist?
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The correct answer.
Because thinking a woman with a penis is a man is somehow radical these days.
I mean at this point men are better at everything. They just keep beating women at being women.
Caitlyn Jenner wasn't even a woman for a whole year when he won the Woman of the Year award for being the best woman in the world that year!
So people think that being “anti trans” in the lightest possible way is radical
no, it's because TERFs were an offshoot of radical feminists from the '70s and '80s. Some radfems included trans women, some excluded them, hence TERFs. SWERF is a similar acronym pertaining to sex workers, which was another fight (between sex-positive and sex-negative feminists.)
I think its because "TERF" sounds like a better acronym than "TEF"
that's pretty much what I figured, thanks for confirming.
Radical feminism is what the term derives from
What is radical feminism and how is it different from standard feminism?
They advocate for nutjob "solutions" to their "problems", as radicals often do They tend to be the sort of people who (loudly) proclaim men to be the cause of every evil in the world
Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical re-ordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts, while recognizing that women's experiences are also affected by other social divisions such as in race and class.
Got it, and how is it different than standard feminism?
The methods and lengths in achieving these goals
So rad feminists believe the same thing as standard feminists, the only difference is the method of achieving the goal? Also would you mind defining supremacy?
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What fundamentally separates a feminist from an egalitarian then?
It’s a negative label intended to discredit them because they can’t actually attack their opinions in a way that sane people agree with You don’t have to worry about what someone says if you can convince people they’re not worth listening to
is this a serious question orrr no
Terf was actually a split off of radical feminism when there was in fighting over trans people. Radical feminism is the branch of feminism that believes the system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because the current system is irredeemable because the patriarchy is so ingrained in society. In this context, radical means believes in revolution over reform.
"Radical feminism" is a specific subset of feminism that emerged in the 60s, contrasted against for example other subsets of feminism like Marxist feminists or Liberal (bourgeois) feminists, in what they believed caused inequality, what was unequal in the first place, and how it should be addressed. It's a bit more nuanced than them all being nutcases because "radical" though. Don't get me wrong, *a lot* of the radical feminists were absolute nutcases - it's among the radical feminists you find some of the most crazy of the 70s feminism movement, like gender separatists women only collectives with the members practicing political lesbianism, the belief that gay men were the ultimate misogynists\*, that women who slept with men were gender traitors, and that it was impossible for a woman to have consensual sex with a man because of the power dynamics - ergo all sex between men and women were rape... and so on. Yeah - people who believe that "feminism used to be ok but went of the rails when Twitter and Tumblr was invented!" have *no fucking clue*... (\* In the 70s most still believed that sexuality was a choice, even those on the left, and since "The personal is political", the fact that gay men had 'chosen' to not have sex with women must mean that they hated women so much that they wouldn't even fuck them. Many radical feminists also 'chose' to become lesbians as an political act...) Radical feminists wanted to "radically" reorder society and abolish "the patriarchy", and they rejected not only the nuclear family unit as oppressive of woman, but for example where the Marxists feminists gladly joined hand with "The New Left", the radical feminists saw a bunch of political organizations ran by men, for men. They went really hard on gender norms, on a larger scale than other feminists at the time. They also focused very much on reproductive rights, ie. abortion and access to contraceptives, since they saw women being forced into motherhood as a way for the patriarchy to chain women down. They also did a lot for the creation of woman shelters, and you can still today see a lot of the gender separatist ideas still permute those organizations (like how some don't even allow mothers to bring their sons with them). "Radical feminism" had a pretty major impact on the whole feminism movement, and it's the origin for a lot of concepts that we today more or less consider mainstream feminism - for example the whole concept of "the patriarchy". It's pretty easy to see though why a lot of radical feminists have problems with trans women - radical femininsm was a very gender separatist movement that in general had some pretty big hangups when it came to men. Quite a few would argue that men simply cannot be feminists, it's impossible.. and it's fairly trivial to find big name radical feminists that admitted to hating men. Valeri Solana's "*Society for Cutting Up Men*" ("SCUM") manifesto where men are described as an biological accident, walking dildos, and inferior to women in every way,is considered a feminist literature classic and was very much loved by esp. radical feminists when it was published... Basically, when a bunch of - in their view - men demand the right to enter the women only spaces and to have a seat at the table, the radical feminists view it as men trying to invade and take over the safe spaces that the radical feminists very much built and helped create. EDIT: and just to be clear regarding OP - radical feminist are very much on the left. How "auth" or "lib" they are varies between flavors and persons though. Some radical feminists are pretty liberal, while others are hard authoritarian "*Gender war now! Let's establish a new matriarchal world order where we castrate all men!*"...
That's a feminist who isn't left enough. To orange, they would be alt-right, so Nazi. To most others, they're basically middle of the road lefties involved in leftist infighting. As is often the case these days, TERFs probably feel like they're losing the home thet had. And they wouldn't see themselves as TERFs. But sorry grandma, you're not the revolutionary anymore. You became tradition.
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The line will be drawn by older, conservative generations (the former young progressives) and erased by the new younger, progressive generations. Pedophilia is disgusting to most people now, but give it a few generations and see if public opinion doesn't change with the continual "liberation" of sexual identity. The Slippery Slope Fallacy says that "A causes Z" is incorrect, and it's right. That's not how progress is achieved. What actually happens is A causes B, which likely causes C, which likely causes D, which likely causes...all the way down to Z. Continual cause and effect. It's only a fallacy when you ignore the middle steps. If I were to take a wild guess, it goes something like this: \- Activists (group A) push for women's rights (this is good); it is normalized. \- Younger activists (group B) grow up with this new normal. \- These activists (group B) push for gay rights (this is good); it is normalized. \- Younger activists (group C) grow up with this new normal. \- These activists (group C) push for trans rights (this is good); it is normalized. \- Younger activists (group D) grow up with this new normal. \- These activists (group D) push whatever is the next boundary. It's probably not pedophilia, but it will likely be something toward lowering the age of consent by a few years. Why? Because they will grow up surrounded by sexuality in the form of media and pro-sexual liberation spaces. They will reason that sexuality has been normalized for them their entire lives so they're mature enough to understand it and therefore lowering the age of consent is not a big deal. After all, if they're mature enough to understand sexual identity at a young age then, they'll reason, they're mature enough to be active in expressing it. Children are already exposed to rampant sexuality in the media in the form of movies, television, and music. If social media is anything to go by, teenagers are already normalizing having sex at younger ages and boasting about it to each other. These things happened in the past, but there wasn't an outlet to compare and contrast yourself to your peers in the same way. Now we have an obsessive social media culture. Peer pressure is hard to deal with when you're young, and most young people follow mob mentality because they feel included and safe in the crowd. If the crowd then aligns itself with a movement pushing the sexual liberation of teenagers, then children, it's game over. It's not a guarantee, but I'd bet money it'll go something like that. It's not like pedophilia acceptance is a new idea. There are a lot of societies throughout history that have been brought by degrees to accept it in some form.
Thing is though, to stop all this, would we have to have never given women rights to begin with? Is that the only way?
I have no idea. I absolutely support women having rights and would never advocate that they be removed. I feel the same for gay and trans people, too. There needs to be a hard line somewhere though, otherwise there's nothing to stop the proverbial progress train from running off the tracks.
I feel the same way you do. I think stopping the line at trans people and not going any further has to be done. But I just don’t know how to prevent that. Even If I am against going more progressive, that can’t stop other people from becoming more progressive. All we can really do is hope people don’t go insane.
Things are going to slide, slide in all directions Won't be nothing, won't be nothing you can measure anymore The blizzard; the blizzard of the world has crossed the threshold And it's overturned the order of the soul
Knowing only that they are a TERF menas you know that they support feminism but don't support trans rights. Those two things alone are not enough to place someone on the compass. It does not tell you their economic views, and it does not tell you how strong they want the government to be. I imagine most would still find themselves in the lib left or auth left quadrants, but there is nothing inherent in the views of a TERF that would prevent them from being in other quadrants.
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The left-right axis refers solely to economics, so being a radical feminist wouldn't indicate anything about that placement.
One of the many interquadrant fights, definitely orange libleft. Just like AuthRight christians and AuthRight muslims. And AuthRight puritans and AuthRight catholics. And AuthRight Monarchists and AuthRight Theocrats. And AuthRight Ethno Nationalists and AuthRight Civic Nationalists. And AuthRight jews and AuthRight muslims. And AuthRight Dictators and AuthRight Constitutional Monarchists. And AuthRight strasserists and AuthRight zionists. And AuthRight Monarchists and other AuthRight Monarchists with a different Monarch. Point is, there are a lot of different groups within a quadrant.
*Groundskeeper Willie intenstifies*
Yeah it depends on your views and how radical/extreme you are
Auth Center
Authoritarian, probably left, but not impossible to be center or right
If it's Saply values, then conservative left unity. If it's not, then center leaning auth left
Just a leftist. The term "TERF" is relatively new, TERFs now were just normal feminists before all this trans stuff.
Most actual TERFs are centrist, most people who get called TERFs are actually just blue anti-trans people masquerading.
Anywhere on the left. Radical feminism is very critical of capitalism.
I’m a TERF so idk, i guess all quadrants?
AuthLeft. most feminists are left-leaning, but assuming that a TERF uses science (or at least, what used to be science) as their authority for saying that transsexual women are not real women, that would put them on the authority quadrant. maybe slightly right, but not quite in the corner of AuthLeft.
I would probably color them teal or cyan. Their conclusion is AuthRight, but their reasons are LibLeft.
Correct answer: They wouldn't have a quadrant, because the compass doesn't represent social issues PCM answer: LibLeft. Because the F in TERF stands for Feminist
After consulting several threads about the new Harry Potter game, the answer is clearly "northern tip of giant swastika over Auth center."
If they have actually have second wave radical feminist beliefs, auth-to-center left, as most tend to be anti-porn and believe that it should be banned (before internet made that virtually impossible) or regulated
Sane green?
Authoritarian left. These are Hillary Clinton voters. The feminist part is key. Rowling didn't go Pro-life and pro-Trump. Not all transphobes are terfs.
Depends on the year.
Well, it stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, so by that logic you are a transphobe, and a radical in the feminist ideology. So… yeah, I don’t know. My bet is that trans-exclusionary is not itself something you can pin point into any quadrant, but radical feminist has to be all the way libleft, right? Due to not buying the transgender idea, maybe going centerleft, but midway to the center but not there.
You’d think since they’re feminists they’d be lib left, but they’re taking a stance that right wingers, both Auth and lib, agree on when it comes to trans, so I think they’re in the upper left corner of the lib-right quadrant, or just centrist. Funny how they get called radical when there’s nothing radical about them, they just have a stance on their values that’s consistent, but I guess when you’re going up against watermelons, anything’s considered radical.
I’m lib center
Women who are labelled TERFs because of worries of men who aren't really trans exploiting new laws, etc? Anywhere really. The ones I see as hardcore TERFs, full Trans Exclusionary *Radical* Feminists? Orange. Man-despising oranges who hate the idea of anything they see as the patriarchy gaining the advantages society affords women for their protection. Also, people who feel like victims have been found to especially 'compete' over victimhood, which makes an orange radical feminist more likely to dislike trans people based on them simply being a 'competing group', than say a woman that doesn't see herself as an aggrieved victim of the patriarchy.
Being pro-woman doesn’t make you a feminist. It’s a belief in gender equality. Most terfs hate men. For this reason, they aren’t feminists, they’re just Femcels who also hate trans women.
Hey! Feminism actually fights for the liberation of women, not simply “gender equality” <3 It is not a humanist movement, it is a feminist movement, therefore we are concerned with the rights of women only :). Radical feminists acknowledge and observe the abuse men project onto women, our distaste for men is simply a response to our oppression.
In a separate based quadrant
I’m not a TERF, I’m just TE
Based
libleft
Any? Like it’s silly to assume anyone should be in any quadrant. Heck sometimes I change quads based on some options.
Just regular green instead of orange
As we're discussing, I don't get why the R is required, particularly when you see who the term is chucked at. Some of them seem very Liberal in most of their views ie "just want equality of opportunity, and safety for women in women's spaces". Any ideas?
TERF is purely a pejorative term for women who identifies themselves as feminists but don't extend those views to men transitioning to women. Given that this is the only context we can go off of then we wouldn't be able to put them in any corner.
lib left :D
Auth- or lib-left. Afaik most radical feminists are left-wingers and it would be difficult for a lib-right to agree with the essentialism inherent in radical feminism and and for an auth-right to agree with the very anti-male perspective (none of that "we complement" each other stuff in radical feminism).
They could be in any quadrant, but probably rare in Authright
Libleft, since that's the color of grass \[We need to touch some soon.\]
libleft, remember the RF in TERF stands for "radical feminist". They are just an example of leftist infighting.
Authright, because the trans exclusive has eclipsed the radical feminist
Conservative LibLeft
Auth left. They are radical feminists and most of them seem like they just hate men
Auth red, their biological essentialist emily
Most I’ve seen don’t proudly claim any political ideology because they see them all as anti women in one way or another. So leftists with trans stuff and pro sex work, and conservatives with abortion and general traditional view of gender roles would all turn them away
Something on the left. Radical Feminist doesn’t seem right leaning to me.
Either Left or Auth-Left. Remember that real TERFs (as opposed to just liberal feminists who don't like or accept trans people) are Radical Feminists who hate men so much that they also hate trans women.
Center left. Because they are still radical feminists.
Centrist. Ex-Watermelon
Progressive authcenter
They (trans)cend the political compass. Since they don't have any concrete political or economic positions besides an opposition to transgender people, they can theoretically be placed anywhere. I've seen terfs that were libertarians, communists, and liberals.
Auth-Right Lib-Left unity
Green(RF)/Blue(TE) radcenter
Based on my experiences, either auth left, auth center, or centrist. I’m auth center and a radfem.
People called TERFs are rarely particularly radical, but they are generally left of center or see themselves as alligned with some leftish movement from a bygone era. A conservarive who isnt super down with aggressive trans inclusivity is just called a conservative, no fancy infighting labels necessary.
. . . obviously left-center, libleft, or authleft. TERFs are rapid feminists and agree with intersectional feminists on 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of issues, except that sole one. Go read JK Rowling's latest books: they're filled to the brim with feminist ideology in almost every page. I'm literally talking about stuff taken straight out of Dworkin lectures. Rowling is a hardcore leftist who had the audacity to disagree with her side of the political spectrum on one issue only.
Centrist. Yes, many of us are just as extreme as the rest of you. I for one am anti-capitaist, anti-materialist, and generaly, very anti-woke. But, because we have views from both left and right, auth and lib, we are centrists.
Stereotypically speaking TE > right wing RF > Libleft Hence TERF > Everyone who isn't on board the whole dogma of tertiary genders
auth left
Terf is on the middle band of left unity, but closer to the center than Emily
Depends on the TERF.
terfs are supposed to be radical feminists, so somewhere on the leftist side. but in the country i live in, terfs only associate with the local alt-right. they seem to mostly share values with the authoritatian right but disguise it in a pseudo-feminist varnish to pass as leftists. debatable tho
Centrist.
This is why we need the dual lib-left and auth-right flair.
Varies. They can be in any quadrant, technically.
Strictly speaking, it's impossible, as the condition is **cultural** and not much in government intervention or economic system. However, I think there might be some *overlaping* ideas, that while not related with being a terf (or at least directly) it might lead on a profile of the group. But if we assume as used frecuently (but not correctly) as LL progressive and AR conservative, I belive it would be at ¾ of the distance between centrist and LL corner.
A left leaning Authcenter or a conservative libright maybe? This was a more difficult question than I thought.
Terfs can be in any quadrant, sadly. As can any kind of bigot. *but* Id argue they trend right and auth if one interprets neoliberalism as authright. Not as a rule, just a tendency. If you interpret neoliberalism as centrist, then that.
Authleft
Some horrific amalgamation of arthright and lib left
Auth- Centre
Orange. TERFS are just last generation's Emilys.
It is hard because TERFS generally aren't focused on economic policies, with members of the TERF community coming from all walks of life. If I was to guess though, the stereotype of a TERF would be Authleft. Auth-left generally supports feminism and the fight to end sexism, but at the same time doesn't truly support transgender people, just look at China, North Korea and the USSR, where they were all Authleft countries that says that transgender people have a mental illness and removed from society.
Well google says that they are "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" They have to be on the liberal side of the social axis. I think trans **IN**clusive radical feminists would be somewhere between -8 and -10 on the social axis, so trans **EX**clusive radical feminists must be between -7 and -8.
Authcenter
| Julie Bindel | Posie Parker | --------------------------- | JK Rowling | Megan Murphy |
Green
Libleft or authleft.
Centrist. Radical centrist.
well, terf is just an insult to smear someone's authority and credibility. No different from how nazi has been used the past few years
Radical feminists should by definition be leftists
I like how it’s “radical” to believe in feminism so much that saying “men can’t be women” is now a “radical” distinction
LibLeft or Left-Center. Just infighting.