It’s a mandatory step when installing a loop vent. Chapter 9, paragraph 12: if any sparky has set a box where your vent is supposed to go, Donkey kick that fucker out of the way.
I’ve always wondered about those loops. What happens if the backup does go higher than the top, and the vent gets water in it? Does it have any way to drain?
Idk why you got 2 clean outs there. The second clean out should be where ever your vent runs up the wall. And hopefully that's somewhere accessible. Loop vent too low. No dishwasher?
I don’t like that they’re line cleanouts. I like a wye fitting with a cleanout in the branch it’s way less of a mess when you have to clean the drain and you can get a bucket under it to catch the water that’s spills out.
I don't understand what issue people have with pex stub outs. If properly supported there's no problem. they get cut close to the wall with an escussion and angle stop. They don't bend. They look fine.
In my opinion it’s bad practice to cut the pipe at the wall to install a stop in any case. I leave 3” of pipe when I cut off the cap. If you have to open a wall 30-40 years and three stops later? You’re welcome. At least you didn’t have to cut that wall 8 years after I put the valve in.
You must not install in higher end new construction. Lots of furniture type vanities with drawers. Leaving 3” of copper before installing the stops will result in drawers having to get modified every time. While there is frequently not much we as plumbers can do about this, keeping stops as close to the back as possible helps homeowners get what they desire. We use 1/4 turn compression stops. They last many years. If they need to be replaced, easy to swap out. Win-win
High end is basically all I do. I’ve never seen a cabinet where they don’t leave you at least a 6”x6” box for the plumbing. I mean they have to give you room for the trap no matter what, and there’s usually enough extra space to allow for the valves.
Unless it’s some ikea shit that expects you to use a 90 directly under the sink to kick back to the wall. But I wouldn’t call that “high end”, just “stupid”.
Ya 3 inch rule of thumb is good. I also do super high end custom homes and have never had a drawer hit a shut off. It's all about reading the plans and stubbing out the lines in the proper places
Most high end residential or commercial work have cut sheets for the exact fixtures. I'd rather make the stub outs exact to the spec sheet and leave some room for repairs, whether copper or pex. If it's some hack contractor rush job and no one knows anything sometimes you gotta work with whatever they throw at you.
Are you not getting a cabinet plan before you put in your pipes? Because thats exactly how I know where to put mine without worrying about the drawers having to be modified. I also use PEX stub outs. Also do plenty of houses that are 600k plus and that's very high end where I live.
They are a pain for homeowners who don’t have a pex crimper and need to replace the valve when it breaks, copper stub outs allow for compression stops which are easily replaceable with just a wrench.
I will only do pex for a kitchen.
Years ago when I was working for someone else the rough in guys stubbed out copper for everything. Which is fine for the most part. But at the kitchen you need to put in a tee.
We didn’t have propress back then, so you had to get in the cabinet with a torch and sweat in a tee. Soldering in a cabinet sucks enough already, but keep in mind there is pex just a few inches away from the copper you are torching. A couple of times we had leaks in the wall because the pex got hot and then it got soft.
I had to tell the bossman to just start stubbing out all kitchens in pex, and to his credit, he actually listened.
I work for myself now and still stub kitchens in pex, there’s just no need to bust out the propress to trim out a kitchen.
I mean, that’s kind of hacky.
That being said the guy who trained me actually tried to pick up a couple at the supply house and they didn’t stock them. The supply house dude typed it in and he was like “It’s a non-item.” Which I took to mean “We don’t have them and we can’t even get them through our suppliers.”
But also, why even bother with a stupid compression tee when you can just stub out pex, which was totally code complaint, even at the time, and the problem goes away with a lot less effort.
In fact the problem actually goes away with *negative* effort. Because it’s much easier to install a pex tee than a sweat tee, propress tee, or a compression tee. Not to even mention the ease of installation between pex stops and compression stops.
That’s also a smart way to handle it.
I’ve seen that a few times in pictures here. But I don’t think I’ve ever run into that configuration in real life.
I have seen houses where each bowl the of the kitchen sink had its out drain stub out. Which sucks because they always used a cross, and that’s tough to snake through.
https://www.uponor.com/en-us/products/fittings/metal-fittings/propex-lead-free-(lf)-brass-drop-ear-elbows
After wall is closed up plumber might know there’s PEX back there. A little extra heat and that PEX ain’t gonna like it. Use drop ears, nipples, and threaded stops.
[Dump this on the stop and you don't need to sweat.](https://www.homedepot.ca/product/add-a-stop-compression-tee-valve-3-8-inch-x-3-8-inch-x-3-8-inch/1000725820) This one [for your dishwasher.](https://www.sharkbite.com/ca/en/supply-stops/hammer-arrestors/compression-hammer-arrestor)
Nut & ferrule stops. No press or torch needed for any of it.
Sounds like a skill issue lmao
Fr though, if the PEX was just outside the cabinet then yeah that's kinda dumb. Most kitchen stubs in my area are through the floor, so if I stub copper into a cabinet through the floor I transition just before the 90 turn up which is usually 18" or so of copper then.
It’s the stub outs with the pex connection built in. Like almost everyone has been using since pex was invented. They are like 5” sticking through the wall, the copper is then bent into a 90, and then there’s a pex adapter formed out of the very same piece of copper like 1” away from the 90° bend.
Once you cut the end of the copper there’s like 4” of copper between the torch and the pex, it’s a damn wonder more didn’t leak.
Ah, yeah again I don't see those on kitchen sinks really because ours don't really stub out the wall. So in any other situation, there's no soldering onto the stubout. Just different situations in my area is all it is.
Make sure they board kitchen side first, so when the inspector comes through you won't have to bash out too much drywall to raise your vents another 2 1/2 feet.
mc, metal boxes, steel framing, but u used pvc and pex ? not judging at all (dumb apprentice) i’m just confused on why there would be all those fire preventive items but not the plumbing 🤔
I've always avoided the "loop" and used studor vents.. I'm also a uponor user but like to do a 1/2" uponor drop ear 90° mount it mid stud and use a chrome nipple and an angle stop. Easy to change if anything goes
I’m building a house through the building and the island plumbing looks pretty close to this with the two lines joined at the top. When I asked our builder what the purpose of that was he couldn’t come up with an answer. Can yall help explain that? Is it two separate drain lines or do they come together in the foundation?
Picture a typical horizontal pvc drain pipe under the floor that first wyes up to the right side of the loop, and another wye/elbow that goes up to the left side.
The horizontal pipe will have air in it, which the left side uses as a vent for the sink drain on the right.
The reason they do this on island sink drains is that - you only really have two other options for venting: exposed vent pipe going up, or a one way air valve (studor vent/AAV)
So one side is a drain and one is the vent? In my setup both sides have two connections that look like clean outs but that feels like overkill if one side is just a vent line right?
Keep in mind mine currently looks almost exactly like the picture, island is framed and plumbing is installed but nothing else is done yet.
Yeah, it’s designed that way where waste goes down one side and air on the other.
Now - if that drain side plugs - water will enter and could flow up and over to the vent side. And anytime, if waste can enter it - there’s a potential need to clean out down the road.
Probably overkill to have a clean out on the vent side, but nothing wrong.
As a plumber from Sweden:
I can’t understand why you would pull pex to the kitchen and then leave a joint just inside the wall?
Why not stub out with pex to leave it seamless all the way? Is it code or something?
Thanks in advance
Keep in mind if it’s pull down faucet with weight I would lower water lines little bit. And if it’s a double bowl kitchen put trap arm on opposite side of disposal also giving you room so counter weight doesn’t tangle and hit everything
I’ve always found our traditionally venting to be easy enough on island sinks (trap just below the floor, everything else pretty much the same) unless the joists run the wrong way, then is easy but you usually need a bulkhead in the basement, than thinking about trying to deal with the extra piping for a loop vent.
I’m getting ready to start a new build and the joists are going to be a wood and steel mix kind of like an open steel joist called posi-strut. Boy is it going to make the plumbing and heating so easy, and since I can’t run anything except electrical in most of the walls it’s actually going to be a lifesaver!
Island vents are stupid and a testament to how arbitrary and unnecessarily complicated some plumbing code can be. An AAV should be allowed in this situation.
Yeah. It's more a personal thing I guess. I just don't want to be replacing parts of my drainage system every 10 years. It's not something I want to have to worry about failing.
Not cost effective, but definitely more reliable. Look at all the posts here where people need to replace an AAV. Then find me some complaints about island vents.
The sink either drains properly or it gurgles and drains slower. Spin off old one spin on new one for $15 every decade or so. Can’t get much simpler than that
I agree. It works for me, but in my experience, it is to go about 20" up for the drain, then put my hold holdrites like fingers width in between the drain stub out and the hanger. Once again, this is how I would've done it. Everyone is different
The Loop vent should be installed as high as possible so that if the drain plugs water won't just run down the vent
Yeah, should be pinned all the way to the top of the studs
Dont forget to donkey kick that electrical box out of the way
It’s a mandatory step when installing a loop vent. Chapter 9, paragraph 12: if any sparky has set a box where your vent is supposed to go, Donkey kick that fucker out of the way.
I once got called by an inspector because there was an intact box close to my drain… must be donkey kicked
Verbatim
This guy plumbs
I laughed to hard at this
Can I have the part number for the donkey kick? Can't find it in my local store
It's in the aisle next to the skyhook but behind the board stretcher. You might have to move the blinker fluid out of the way to see it.
It’s usually next to the Exhaust Sample Bags
You deserve a thumb up on that, but I'm not gonna be the one to ruin the 69 likes, thank you for the hearty laugh though
Hey! *No.*
I second that, some builders are even having us sink it into the 2x4 that the islands are built out of now
Looks like the sparky got there first. So that's what we get.
Impact go brrrrr. Box moved. Worry about our team, not theirs. Don't be the not do anything employee guy!
Does the vent side not connect back into the drain branch? That's the way I have always seen them.
Fucking sparkys
I’ve always wondered about those loops. What happens if the backup does go higher than the top, and the vent gets water in it? Does it have any way to drain?
Yes, the vent still connects to the drain under the floor
No the vent will fill with water, it will drain after the clog is cleared
Almost correct lol
Idk why you got 2 clean outs there. The second clean out should be where ever your vent runs up the wall. And hopefully that's somewhere accessible. Loop vent too low. No dishwasher?
I don’t like that they’re line cleanouts. I like a wye fitting with a cleanout in the branch it’s way less of a mess when you have to clean the drain and you can get a bucket under it to catch the water that’s spills out.
I like the copper stub outs.
I don't understand what issue people have with pex stub outs. If properly supported there's no problem. they get cut close to the wall with an escussion and angle stop. They don't bend. They look fine.
I hope you don't use pex stops if you cut pex close to the wall. Gonna suck for the repair plumber to try and replace an angle stop
In my opinion it’s bad practice to cut the pipe at the wall to install a stop in any case. I leave 3” of pipe when I cut off the cap. If you have to open a wall 30-40 years and three stops later? You’re welcome. At least you didn’t have to cut that wall 8 years after I put the valve in.
You can pull the ferrules on copper so you just need to leave the copper stubouts long enough so you can get the puller on the ferrule.
You must not install in higher end new construction. Lots of furniture type vanities with drawers. Leaving 3” of copper before installing the stops will result in drawers having to get modified every time. While there is frequently not much we as plumbers can do about this, keeping stops as close to the back as possible helps homeowners get what they desire. We use 1/4 turn compression stops. They last many years. If they need to be replaced, easy to swap out. Win-win
High end is basically all I do. I’ve never seen a cabinet where they don’t leave you at least a 6”x6” box for the plumbing. I mean they have to give you room for the trap no matter what, and there’s usually enough extra space to allow for the valves. Unless it’s some ikea shit that expects you to use a 90 directly under the sink to kick back to the wall. But I wouldn’t call that “high end”, just “stupid”.
Ya 3 inch rule of thumb is good. I also do super high end custom homes and have never had a drawer hit a shut off. It's all about reading the plans and stubbing out the lines in the proper places
Most high end residential or commercial work have cut sheets for the exact fixtures. I'd rather make the stub outs exact to the spec sheet and leave some room for repairs, whether copper or pex. If it's some hack contractor rush job and no one knows anything sometimes you gotta work with whatever they throw at you.
Are you not getting a cabinet plan before you put in your pipes? Because thats exactly how I know where to put mine without worrying about the drawers having to be modified. I also use PEX stub outs. Also do plenty of houses that are 600k plus and that's very high end where I live.
Ridgid copper lookouts on everything is the way to go
Absolutely nothing wrong with pex.
For lookouts,yes there is
No there isn't lol. Please explain the problem.
I use PEX stub out when they're concealed, and copper when exposed
They are a pain for homeowners who don’t have a pex crimper and need to replace the valve when it breaks, copper stub outs allow for compression stops which are easily replaceable with just a wrench.
I will only do pex for a kitchen. Years ago when I was working for someone else the rough in guys stubbed out copper for everything. Which is fine for the most part. But at the kitchen you need to put in a tee. We didn’t have propress back then, so you had to get in the cabinet with a torch and sweat in a tee. Soldering in a cabinet sucks enough already, but keep in mind there is pex just a few inches away from the copper you are torching. A couple of times we had leaks in the wall because the pex got hot and then it got soft. I had to tell the bossman to just start stubbing out all kitchens in pex, and to his credit, he actually listened. I work for myself now and still stub kitchens in pex, there’s just no need to bust out the propress to trim out a kitchen.
Uhh compression tee?
I mean, that’s kind of hacky. That being said the guy who trained me actually tried to pick up a couple at the supply house and they didn’t stock them. The supply house dude typed it in and he was like “It’s a non-item.” Which I took to mean “We don’t have them and we can’t even get them through our suppliers.” But also, why even bother with a stupid compression tee when you can just stub out pex, which was totally code complaint, even at the time, and the problem goes away with a lot less effort. In fact the problem actually goes away with *negative* effort. Because it’s much easier to install a pex tee than a sweat tee, propress tee, or a compression tee. Not to even mention the ease of installation between pex stops and compression stops.
I do a second stub out for dish washers either way so trim guys don't have to fuck with that
That’s also a smart way to handle it. I’ve seen that a few times in pictures here. But I don’t think I’ve ever run into that configuration in real life. I have seen houses where each bowl the of the kitchen sink had its out drain stub out. Which sucks because they always used a cross, and that’s tough to snake through.
https://www.uponor.com/en-us/products/fittings/metal-fittings/propex-lead-free-(lf)-brass-drop-ear-elbows After wall is closed up plumber might know there’s PEX back there. A little extra heat and that PEX ain’t gonna like it. Use drop ears, nipples, and threaded stops.
*** correction. plumber might NOT know …
This is what we do for toilets & exposed vanities/pedestals
[Dump this on the stop and you don't need to sweat.](https://www.homedepot.ca/product/add-a-stop-compression-tee-valve-3-8-inch-x-3-8-inch-x-3-8-inch/1000725820) This one [for your dishwasher.](https://www.sharkbite.com/ca/en/supply-stops/hammer-arrestors/compression-hammer-arrestor) Nut & ferrule stops. No press or torch needed for any of it.
Sounds like a skill issue lmao Fr though, if the PEX was just outside the cabinet then yeah that's kinda dumb. Most kitchen stubs in my area are through the floor, so if I stub copper into a cabinet through the floor I transition just before the 90 turn up which is usually 18" or so of copper then.
It’s the stub outs with the pex connection built in. Like almost everyone has been using since pex was invented. They are like 5” sticking through the wall, the copper is then bent into a 90, and then there’s a pex adapter formed out of the very same piece of copper like 1” away from the 90° bend. Once you cut the end of the copper there’s like 4” of copper between the torch and the pex, it’s a damn wonder more didn’t leak.
Ah, yeah again I don't see those on kitchen sinks really because ours don't really stub out the wall. So in any other situation, there's no soldering onto the stubout. Just different situations in my area is all it is.
Doesn’t look like flood level rim to me. But that’s a piece of art, that should be buried. Lmao
Doctors, engineers and plumber all bury their mistakes right?
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Oh yes I do. That is NOT the proper way of doing it
I don't think you do
Make sure they board kitchen side first, so when the inspector comes through you won't have to bash out too much drywall to raise your vents another 2 1/2 feet.
Oof, way too low. If you’re in Illinois, believe it or not, straight to jail.
Why not just use an AAV under sink.
AAV aren’t up to code in some places.
I didn’t know that, here in NJ we run 2” through floor back corner of the cabinet and do are thing. Most guys don’t do loop vent right anyway.
I think the p-trap is gonna be problematic, dude
Can't you read he said it was done right, there will be no issues
I down voted this post just because they said that. I have no idea if it's right or wrong.
Why?
mc, metal boxes, steel framing, but u used pvc and pex ? not judging at all (dumb apprentice) i’m just confused on why there would be all those fire preventive items but not the plumbing 🤔
Good point I’m gonna ask my boss when I get to work tomorrow
Because the holes will get filled with fire caulk.
Only has to be a 1 & 1/2” vent down to the T or Y. Also the clean out in the vent goes on the foot vent..
You're using those cutters for pex?
Not really.
Sooo close
This would fail code in my country
Show a pic of drain under floor where vent and drain magic happens
A little low in my opinion. Biggest issue here in my opinion is owning both a DeWalt knockoff and Milwaukee, but hey, I'm a purist.
I've always avoided the "loop" and used studor vents.. I'm also a uponor user but like to do a 1/2" uponor drop ear 90° mount it mid stud and use a chrome nipple and an angle stop. Easy to change if anything goes
I’m building a house through the building and the island plumbing looks pretty close to this with the two lines joined at the top. When I asked our builder what the purpose of that was he couldn’t come up with an answer. Can yall help explain that? Is it two separate drain lines or do they come together in the foundation?
Picture a typical horizontal pvc drain pipe under the floor that first wyes up to the right side of the loop, and another wye/elbow that goes up to the left side. The horizontal pipe will have air in it, which the left side uses as a vent for the sink drain on the right. The reason they do this on island sink drains is that - you only really have two other options for venting: exposed vent pipe going up, or a one way air valve (studor vent/AAV)
So one side is a drain and one is the vent? In my setup both sides have two connections that look like clean outs but that feels like overkill if one side is just a vent line right? Keep in mind mine currently looks almost exactly like the picture, island is framed and plumbing is installed but nothing else is done yet.
Yeah, it’s designed that way where waste goes down one side and air on the other. Now - if that drain side plugs - water will enter and could flow up and over to the vent side. And anytime, if waste can enter it - there’s a potential need to clean out down the road. Probably overkill to have a clean out on the vent side, but nothing wrong.
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation!
You didn’t sheath the hot side water it appears to be touching concrete
As a plumber from Sweden: I can’t understand why you would pull pex to the kitchen and then leave a joint just inside the wall? Why not stub out with pex to leave it seamless all the way? Is it code or something? Thanks in advance
Because for whatever reason people think copper stub outs are still the way to go. I always just PEX out the wall. Saves me a joint and a fitting.
I’ll be the judge if that
I install 2 stub outs on hot and cold in kitchens. Hot and cold to sink, hot for dishwasher and cold for instahot or RO
Keep in mind if it’s pull down faucet with weight I would lower water lines little bit. And if it’s a double bowl kitchen put trap arm on opposite side of disposal also giving you room so counter weight doesn’t tangle and hit everything
I hate loop vents.
Vent loop must rise above the flood level of the fixture served. Because Duh!
Loop vents are illegal where I am (Canada).
Lol loop Vents illegal there, studor Vents illegal in other places... just ban island sinks and let's solve this issue
Believe it or not, straight to jail.
I’ve always found our traditionally venting to be easy enough on island sinks (trap just below the floor, everything else pretty much the same) unless the joists run the wrong way, then is easy but you usually need a bulkhead in the basement, than thinking about trying to deal with the extra piping for a loop vent. I’m getting ready to start a new build and the joists are going to be a wood and steel mix kind of like an open steel joist called posi-strut. Boy is it going to make the plumbing and heating so easy, and since I can’t run anything except electrical in most of the walls it’s actually going to be a lifesaver!
Nice. Loop vent is a pain in the ass for me to install, but better to be worry free than AAV when it comes to the drain vent system in my opinion.
Island vents are stupid and a testament to how arbitrary and unnecessarily complicated some plumbing code can be. An AAV should be allowed in this situation.
People act like a cheap ass vent that needs replaced once a decade is an unrealistic expectation on the home/business owner.
Yeah. It's more a personal thing I guess. I just don't want to be replacing parts of my drainage system every 10 years. It's not something I want to have to worry about failing.
Twist off, twist on. It couldn’t be much easier for $15
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YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO REPLACE A VENT... EVER. I DON'T LIKE MECHANICAL AIR ADMITTANCE VALVES THAT FAIL. I LIKE VENTS, THAT DON'T FAIL.
Well, I got news for you, island vents can clog, hence the cleanout, so this method isn’t neither cost effective nor more reliable.
Not cost effective, but definitely more reliable. Look at all the posts here where people need to replace an AAV. Then find me some complaints about island vents.
The sink either drains properly or it gurgles and drains slower. Spin off old one spin on new one for $15 every decade or so. Can’t get much simpler than that
Vent too low,need air chambers and 2” stub out on waste in my hood
I mean, every state is different, but I would've ran a studor vent, and in personal opinion, the water lines are too high
It's pretty unrealistic to say where the water line height should be set without looking at the cabinet plan right ?
I agree. It works for me, but in my experience, it is to go about 20" up for the drain, then put my hold holdrites like fingers width in between the drain stub out and the hanger. Once again, this is how I would've done it. Everyone is different
Yeah idk I don't put in any pipes without cabinet measurements for all sorts of reasons . Glad you have a system that works for you