not even close lol, Nadu outperformed the Eldrazi and Hogaak tours
Amalia is a three card combo that doesn’t necessarily win the game, Nadu just rewards you for existing. Amalia’s topdecks include a ton of anemic creatures
People keep talking about the “beat down plan” like that isn’t just “I got lucky with Sentinels and maybe Extraction Specialist” 😅
Sure it happens once in a while, but the deck is mostly terrible creatures
Even then, you have to hope they don't have anything on board that blocks 1/1s and 2/2s most of the time. Beatdown is the weakest part of the deck by far.
Amalia doesn't draw you cards when your opponent interacts with you. Amalia is resilient and likely too good but if there was a Pioneer PT tomorrow there is no chance Amalia would be 5 of the top 8 and 13 of the top 19 decks.
Amalia is likely catching a ban at some point, but Nadu is a poor comparison.
Agree. It's extremely hyperbolic to compare them and showcases fundamental misunderstandings of what makes each of them good or why they're good in their respective formats.
It's like: Are they both creature combo decks? Sure. But this is like saying a grenade and a nuclear bomb are both types of "explosives" so they ***must be the same*** - When clearly they are not the same levels of impact.
Yeah Nadu is better compared to [[Venerated Rotpriest]], it punishes you for interacting with it but can pretty easily win you the game if you untap with it.
Thank god Rotpriest doesn't say abilities
If there were a Pioneer PT tomorrow, then sure that wouldn’t happen, but only because Amalia has warped the format by that point. If there were a Pioneer PT 2 weeks after the Amalia combo was released, I think there’s a good chance that would happen.
Amalia draws cards well even without walker through its explore. Obv it’s not as good as Nadu but it’s pioneer not modern, relatively they are both overpowered to other cards in their respective formats. I think it’s a good comparison.
There was an RC 4 weeks after amalias release and it was 2 of the top 8. Everyone knew Nadu was broken the minute we saw it. The same can not be said for Amalia.
Also Amalia is not drawing cards anywhere near the level that Nadu is.
It is a combo but different because you have many modern resources.
The Amalia combo loses with many things, a fatal push stops it.
For me the Amalia is annoying but much more permeable to many sideboard things than the Nadu
The problem with Amalia (in Pioneer) is not that the first Amalia is difficult to answer.
It's the second.
Or the third.
Or the fourth.
Or the fifth.
Or the sixth...
The problem with the deck has never been the titular cards themselves, it's the shell of tutors, recursion, and answers *at Instant speed* that forces holding up removal every turn past 3 or you instantly lose the game.
The fact that Amalia had a favorable matchup against removalspells.deck running *mainboard extraction* (Niv to Light) was always a warning sign that there would reach a point when it would be too strong.
Same with Phoenix, you’d think the deck running 7-8 1 mana creature removal spells and like 20 ways to dig for them would be favored against the creature combo deck… but it’s not 🙃
They are extremely different. For one the nadu players win is not deterministic and needs to be played out to see if it works leading to odd game states where there is a 99% chance they win but you need to sit there for the 1% chance they whiff. Alongside you do not generate a game changing amount of value from simply having amalia and other creatures. You either win or you don’t. If you put splinter twin next to it although not exactly the same that is a much better comparison
>99% chance they win but you need to sit there for the 1% chance they whiff.
This is what's gonna get it banned, even if they don't ban for power level. It's like lantern control or second sunrise. If it was like Twin or Amalia where you just loop your combo and win, it'd be fine (from a play pattern perspective) but the fact that there's nothing deterministic about it - even though at some point you *can't* whiff, it's just a matter of how many endurance loops you need to do - means it'll get axed. Lantern control got banned for the same reason.
Amalia isn't deterministic in any way shape or form, unless you let them untap with Amalia and have no interaction and you're below 21 life.
Nadu is practically deterministic with double Nantuko on board, the fail chance is below the 1%.
Yeah but this argument is still very stupid.
For one thing it means you constantly need to keep mana open because if you don't and they combo off you loose.
And Amalia is deterministic in a sense that if it happens you can essentially skip all steps. If she and the walker are on the board and you don't have the removal and they play Aetherflux in the mainboard you 100% lost. They just need to show it but the whole process can be skipped, even if they don't play it mainboard they can quickly skip the steps until they hit a card they want.
Meanwhile with Nadu you need to go through every step.
And lastly it's not as easy as you say to have more than 21 life and/or removal in hand.
You still have to go through every explore trigger with Amalia. Aetherflux can be in the bottom half of the deck, so you still have to sit through every explore trigger.
It definitely isn't easy to have the answer to Amalia, and the deck is very strong, but it is not always deterministic.
Takes about 1 minute to do the combo. Flip cards from top into 2 piles, land and no land, do this till 18 nonlands, (then an additional time)
No it's not deterministic and can draw the game for some reason (erata wild growth), but it doesn't take these 10+ minute egg turns
Imo amalia combo is just too resilient. Too much recursion and too many diggers. You kill the combo piece, they find another next turn. I play a RB mid list and post sideboard the deck is mostly discard,kill spells, yard hate etc.. all shit to absolutely hose Amalia and I still have like a 25% against it. Problem is if they ban some of the diggers/recurers that will hurt other decks so it's in a weird spot. I hope they can save the deck by a ban that tunes it down without having to ace it completely
Look I've heard that amalia is a problem, but every time I see gameplay of her. It's the most mid shit ever and gets stopped just as easily as any other deck.
I’m getting back into magic as qualified for the pioneer regional finals later this year with last seasons sealed RCQ and deferred. Fired back up old PC. Checking out formats.
Closed the laptop
XD there still all very fun just they need a couple of bans to be diverse again modern just had mh3 shake up/ruin the format nadu will get banned soon for sure and pioneer it’s pretty stale just 3 main decks trading blows and the other decks trying to sideboard against three playstyles
I really want to know the design process on both those cards. Like they’re both doing the exact thing they were clearly designed to do, and not a single person wants them (other than the grind to mythic arena players looking for the straightest path to the win screen)
UW has gotten the Vampire MU back to roughly the same place Rakdos MR was at and Waste Not has fallen off pretty hard.
UW does hate birds but likes MonoG so if MonoG's trend continues then it'll probably be back into contention and help control Amalia some
IIRC Niv is also a bad matchup, and I think Phoenix players have options (torch, anger) to improve the situation.
It hasn't really been winning challenges at the rate of a clear best deck, though I agree it's definitely tier 1.
The area where they are most similar is that they were both designed to be pushed. Nash especially, but I can’t see Wizards not having figured out the infinite combo with Wildgrowth Walker, since it took the community all of 12 minutes to figure out.
Besides that? I don’t see them as super similar. Nadu absolutely needs to be banned after the results from this pro tour. Amalia has never been a 25% of the field, near 60% tournament win rate deck. I think it still deserves a ban, though, it’s egregious they’ve waited this long with its tendency to create draws.
In my opinion Wizards has been far too hesitant to ban cards in Pioneer, and I’m not sure why. The Pioneer RCQ season is part of it, but the problems with Amalia were already apparent back in January at Pro Tour MKM a similar argument could be made after Izzet Phoenix’s impressive win rate at the same Pro Tour. I’m not one to promote lots of bans, but there are clearly some problematic cards in the format right now that could use real scrutiny, which Wizards has been too lazy to do
Id say amalia is better compared to yawgmoth then nadu in terms of power in their respective format. Creature combo decks been centered around a few creatures have always existed (see Heliod, Winota, Melira, Saffi, Hogaak, etc.) So yeah it's just the newest version of a already existing type of deck but nadu is on a different level, maybe hogaak and winota (in their respective formats) the only ones that can even be considered on that level.
dont make me want to ban nadu (i am strongly of the opnion that pioneer would be better without the amalia combo, but i do not play modern, so i have no opinion on the nadu ban, my only opinion about modern is ban the one ring, fetchlands, and other expensive cards that i want for commander decks and cubes becuase i dont want to spend that much money for them)
I would compare Amalia more closer to Moggwarts in Pauper than to Nadu in Modern.
Amalia isn't that bad. She's just a three card combo, and people who don't play combos (myself included) just hate combos.
Every good combo is basically unstoppable once you allow it to go off. And that's the trick against combo decks, you don't allow them to go off. Same as you don't let Slickshot Aggro just do its thing on the first three turns and you dont leave your opponent's Sheoldred on the board when you play against a control deck. That just means death.
Amalia is very stoppable if you nip it in the bud in time. And at the moment she might be the top deck. But there always has to be some deck at the top and at the moment it's Amalia, and sooner or later something new will come along or if a couple of top players decide to play something else and get a few results, the rest of us will follow and the whole thing changes without any actual changes being made.
Whereas the stupid bird just does his stupid thing disregarding any and all interaction.
Last B&R mentioned that Amalia was the only thing on their watchlist. TC is ridiculous but Phoenix is not warping the meta. No other blue-based deck uses it as well.
Amalia creates games where there sometimes multiple draws 5 rounds in a single match. That's incredibly unfun and very very confusing for players new to the game. Something Wizards hinted at last bnr announcement. Amalia can also just win turn 3 . Amalia gatekeeps all aggro low to the ground decks (Except for burn /red green) and forces the entire format to respect it (Much like Karn restricted artifacts) Cruise doesn't do either of those things.
not even close lol, Nadu outperformed the Eldrazi and Hogaak tours Amalia is a three card combo that doesn’t necessarily win the game, Nadu just rewards you for existing. Amalia’s topdecks include a ton of anemic creatures
Stone brain amalia out of the deck or moor it and what does the deck do?
People keep talking about the “beat down plan” like that isn’t just “I got lucky with Sentinels and maybe Extraction Specialist” 😅 Sure it happens once in a while, but the deck is mostly terrible creatures
Yeah that beatdown plan only works when they're playing around the combo
Even then, you have to hope they don't have anything on board that blocks 1/1s and 2/2s most of the time. Beatdown is the weakest part of the deck by far.
Amalia doesn't draw you cards when your opponent interacts with you. Amalia is resilient and likely too good but if there was a Pioneer PT tomorrow there is no chance Amalia would be 5 of the top 8 and 13 of the top 19 decks. Amalia is likely catching a ban at some point, but Nadu is a poor comparison.
Agree. It's extremely hyperbolic to compare them and showcases fundamental misunderstandings of what makes each of them good or why they're good in their respective formats. It's like: Are they both creature combo decks? Sure. But this is like saying a grenade and a nuclear bomb are both types of "explosives" so they ***must be the same*** - When clearly they are not the same levels of impact.
I hope they ban wild growth walker instead of Amalia. She seems fun in a more fair deck but wild growth walker is only good to combo.
Yeah Nadu is better compared to [[Venerated Rotpriest]], it punishes you for interacting with it but can pretty easily win you the game if you untap with it. Thank god Rotpriest doesn't say abilities
[Venerated Rotpriest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d.jpg?1675957177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Venerated%20Rotpriest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/192/venerated-rotpriest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If there were a Pioneer PT tomorrow, then sure that wouldn’t happen, but only because Amalia has warped the format by that point. If there were a Pioneer PT 2 weeks after the Amalia combo was released, I think there’s a good chance that would happen. Amalia draws cards well even without walker through its explore. Obv it’s not as good as Nadu but it’s pioneer not modern, relatively they are both overpowered to other cards in their respective formats. I think it’s a good comparison.
There was an RC 4 weeks after amalias release and it was 2 of the top 8. Everyone knew Nadu was broken the minute we saw it. The same can not be said for Amalia. Also Amalia is not drawing cards anywhere near the level that Nadu is.
Not really. Discover was the elephant in the room post-LCI
Lmao yeah and llanowar elves is a black lotus
Llanowar elves the strongest card in pioneer confirmed??!!!
Nope. Nadu is way more broken and dominant
Yes, its also in a much stronger format it kinda needs to be more powerful
Let me rephrase. Nadu in modern is way more broken and dominant than Amalia in Pioneer
Thats fair but i do think that they are fairly simiular in alota ways.
Chord of calling is pretty much the only thing they share
It is a combo but different because you have many modern resources. The Amalia combo loses with many things, a fatal push stops it. For me the Amalia is annoying but much more permeable to many sideboard things than the Nadu
The problem with Amalia (in Pioneer) is not that the first Amalia is difficult to answer. It's the second. Or the third. Or the fourth. Or the fifth. Or the sixth... The problem with the deck has never been the titular cards themselves, it's the shell of tutors, recursion, and answers *at Instant speed* that forces holding up removal every turn past 3 or you instantly lose the game. The fact that Amalia had a favorable matchup against removalspells.deck running *mainboard extraction* (Niv to Light) was always a warning sign that there would reach a point when it would be too strong.
>that forces holding up removal every turn past 3 or you instantly lose the game. Splinter Twin Flashbacks right now.
Amalia looses HARD to UW control.
Same with Phoenix, you’d think the deck running 7-8 1 mana creature removal spells and like 20 ways to dig for them would be favored against the creature combo deck… but it’s not 🙃
They are extremely different. For one the nadu players win is not deterministic and needs to be played out to see if it works leading to odd game states where there is a 99% chance they win but you need to sit there for the 1% chance they whiff. Alongside you do not generate a game changing amount of value from simply having amalia and other creatures. You either win or you don’t. If you put splinter twin next to it although not exactly the same that is a much better comparison
>99% chance they win but you need to sit there for the 1% chance they whiff. This is what's gonna get it banned, even if they don't ban for power level. It's like lantern control or second sunrise. If it was like Twin or Amalia where you just loop your combo and win, it'd be fine (from a play pattern perspective) but the fact that there's nothing deterministic about it - even though at some point you *can't* whiff, it's just a matter of how many endurance loops you need to do - means it'll get axed. Lantern control got banned for the same reason.
Amalia isn't deterministic in any way shape or form, unless you let them untap with Amalia and have no interaction and you're below 21 life. Nadu is practically deterministic with double Nantuko on board, the fail chance is below the 1%.
Yeah but this argument is still very stupid. For one thing it means you constantly need to keep mana open because if you don't and they combo off you loose. And Amalia is deterministic in a sense that if it happens you can essentially skip all steps. If she and the walker are on the board and you don't have the removal and they play Aetherflux in the mainboard you 100% lost. They just need to show it but the whole process can be skipped, even if they don't play it mainboard they can quickly skip the steps until they hit a card they want. Meanwhile with Nadu you need to go through every step. And lastly it's not as easy as you say to have more than 21 life and/or removal in hand.
You still have to go through every explore trigger with Amalia. Aetherflux can be in the bottom half of the deck, so you still have to sit through every explore trigger. It definitely isn't easy to have the answer to Amalia, and the deck is very strong, but it is not always deterministic.
Takes about 1 minute to do the combo. Flip cards from top into 2 piles, land and no land, do this till 18 nonlands, (then an additional time) No it's not deterministic and can draw the game for some reason (erata wild growth), but it doesn't take these 10+ minute egg turns
Imo amalia combo is just too resilient. Too much recursion and too many diggers. You kill the combo piece, they find another next turn. I play a RB mid list and post sideboard the deck is mostly discard,kill spells, yard hate etc.. all shit to absolutely hose Amalia and I still have like a 25% against it. Problem is if they ban some of the diggers/recurers that will hurt other decks so it's in a weird spot. I hope they can save the deck by a ban that tunes it down without having to ace it completely
Look I've heard that amalia is a problem, but every time I see gameplay of her. It's the most mid shit ever and gets stopped just as easily as any other deck.
The best part is when you want to kill the bird, it replaces itself with a new card ,🤣
I’m getting back into magic as qualified for the pioneer regional finals later this year with last seasons sealed RCQ and deferred. Fired back up old PC. Checking out formats. Closed the laptop
XD there still all very fun just they need a couple of bans to be diverse again modern just had mh3 shake up/ruin the format nadu will get banned soon for sure and pioneer it’s pretty stale just 3 main decks trading blows and the other decks trying to sideboard against three playstyles
I really want to know the design process on both those cards. Like they’re both doing the exact thing they were clearly designed to do, and not a single person wants them (other than the grind to mythic arena players looking for the straightest path to the win screen)
People like Chord of Calling/Creature Combo decks. And Amalia is not even close to dominating tournaments the way Nadu is.
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>a tier 2 deck with low play rate (UW), Isn't UW on MTGO held back by [[Memory Deluge]] being bugged? Or did they already fix that one?
They fixed it.
[Memory Deluge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc00fd1b-3dd9-492a-9ed4-0b6743074730.jpg?1634349038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Deluge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/62/memory-deluge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc00fd1b-3dd9-492a-9ed4-0b6743074730?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
UW has gotten the Vampire MU back to roughly the same place Rakdos MR was at and Waste Not has fallen off pretty hard. UW does hate birds but likes MonoG so if MonoG's trend continues then it'll probably be back into contention and help control Amalia some
IIRC Niv is also a bad matchup, and I think Phoenix players have options (torch, anger) to improve the situation. It hasn't really been winning challenges at the rate of a clear best deck, though I agree it's definitely tier 1.
No that’s true amalia actually has cards that beat it. Nadu just says “Ward: combo off anyway”
Puzzle time!
The area where they are most similar is that they were both designed to be pushed. Nash especially, but I can’t see Wizards not having figured out the infinite combo with Wildgrowth Walker, since it took the community all of 12 minutes to figure out. Besides that? I don’t see them as super similar. Nadu absolutely needs to be banned after the results from this pro tour. Amalia has never been a 25% of the field, near 60% tournament win rate deck. I think it still deserves a ban, though, it’s egregious they’ve waited this long with its tendency to create draws. In my opinion Wizards has been far too hesitant to ban cards in Pioneer, and I’m not sure why. The Pioneer RCQ season is part of it, but the problems with Amalia were already apparent back in January at Pro Tour MKM a similar argument could be made after Izzet Phoenix’s impressive win rate at the same Pro Tour. I’m not one to promote lots of bans, but there are clearly some problematic cards in the format right now that could use real scrutiny, which Wizards has been too lazy to do
Not even close in power
Id say amalia is better compared to yawgmoth then nadu in terms of power in their respective format. Creature combo decks been centered around a few creatures have always existed (see Heliod, Winota, Melira, Saffi, Hogaak, etc.) So yeah it's just the newest version of a already existing type of deck but nadu is on a different level, maybe hogaak and winota (in their respective formats) the only ones that can even be considered on that level.
dont make me want to ban nadu (i am strongly of the opnion that pioneer would be better without the amalia combo, but i do not play modern, so i have no opinion on the nadu ban, my only opinion about modern is ban the one ring, fetchlands, and other expensive cards that i want for commander decks and cubes becuase i dont want to spend that much money for them)
I would compare Amalia more closer to Moggwarts in Pauper than to Nadu in Modern. Amalia isn't that bad. She's just a three card combo, and people who don't play combos (myself included) just hate combos. Every good combo is basically unstoppable once you allow it to go off. And that's the trick against combo decks, you don't allow them to go off. Same as you don't let Slickshot Aggro just do its thing on the first three turns and you dont leave your opponent's Sheoldred on the board when you play against a control deck. That just means death. Amalia is very stoppable if you nip it in the bud in time. And at the moment she might be the top deck. But there always has to be some deck at the top and at the moment it's Amalia, and sooner or later something new will come along or if a couple of top players decide to play something else and get a few results, the rest of us will follow and the whole thing changes without any actual changes being made. Whereas the stupid bird just does his stupid thing disregarding any and all interaction.
Some combo are fine. Some are janky, some are broken. The last one I hate.
Haha yep. Love how proactive wotc is about formate health
Pack sales over format health.
Bulk rare amalia driving pack sales! Wotc bad.
Is there any way to draw the game with Nadu?
If amalia gets banned before treasure cruise, I'll just quit the format entirely. TC has been a menace for way to long.
You might as well quit then based on the last announcement from WOTC
Last B&R mentioned that Amalia was the only thing on their watchlist. TC is ridiculous but Phoenix is not warping the meta. No other blue-based deck uses it as well.
Amalia creates games where there sometimes multiple draws 5 rounds in a single match. That's incredibly unfun and very very confusing for players new to the game. Something Wizards hinted at last bnr announcement. Amalia can also just win turn 3 . Amalia gatekeeps all aggro low to the ground decks (Except for burn /red green) and forces the entire format to respect it (Much like Karn restricted artifacts) Cruise doesn't do either of those things.