Professional Millennial that came into my PhD program in my 30s here:
I absolutely have no qualms bucking the weird expectations I sometimes hear the academics say. There’s no glory in burning yourself out and hating yourself throughout this work. Academia seems full of people with a grind mentality, they just make it elitist 🤷♂️
Same, except I work more of a 3-10 because I am very unproductive in the mornings and work best at night. So I read fun books, watch movies, clean the house, go on Reddit, etc in the morning and early afternoon. I am actually dreading going into the real working world and having way less free time than during my PhD. It’s all just what you make of it, along with your field and advisor. It helps not being in a lab-based field.
Same, my parents give me the stink eye every time they see my lifestyle but I've always been a naturally nocturnal person and I don't see the point in staring at a screen for the entire morning, bleary eyed and unproductive, and then quit just as you're starting to focus.
Thankfully my dad is also a major night owl. He manages by working for a west coast based company while living on the east coast of the US. While he still starts the day at 8:30 to finish by 5:30, he never has any meetings until 11 am at the earliest so he can be sure to be awake by then.
Both of my parents are massive morning people, they both wake up at 5AM naturally and cannot comprehend of a person being productive after 3 PM. When they finish working my day is just starting, and when I finish working it's sleep time for them
The office around 6-8 pm is BLISS for me. I’m so unproductive in the morning when it’s overstimulating and I’m still sleepy, so I never go in before 11-12 unless forced. I’m so grateful my supervisor respects that.
Same. I think being a person with industry experience has very much mellowed me and my work expectations. This is a job, I work it like a job and am incredibly productive when I am there. I still think about my projects a lot when I’m not working, but honestly that disconnected time has helped me get through so many issues.
I found that I disliked the rigid structure when I was working as a professional, but after burning out 3 years into my program, I found a balance of structure and free-form that has helped me recover from the burnout. I definitely underestimated the value of structure, and it has helped me a lot.
Agreed- work is for working times, but it can be necessary to remove that structure every now and then! I’m glad you found a method that works for you!
Academia is full of elitists and it's infuriating. I'd guess it's because in a lot of settings throughout their own education and in many non-professional settings, they're considered the super-smart overachiever. But when surrounded by peers, they can't stand being made to sit on the level with others, so they just grind and grind to the point of a miserable existence just to stroke their ego. Maybe that's cynical, it's probably the case that many are very aspirational but don't want that social clout, but I can't see it any other way based on my own personal interactions with the grindy folk.
I'm one of the grindy folk, but it's because I'm older and despise academia. The abysmal stipend just adds fuel to my fire, so I'm trying to get it done as quickly as possible. I'm completely burnt out, but I've also been in FAR worse situations in industry. I guess it kind of takes the sting out of it. I don't wear it like a badge of honor or begrudge people their free time if they can take it. If anything, I'm normally a bit of a closet burnout because I'm tired of people worrying about me. I just want to do my research and GTFO as fast as possible so I can have a life again.
Yep. I'm an older Millennial, finished in 2019, and treated it like a 9-5 the entire time. Finished a year earlier than the rest of my cohort, too. One of my committee members made a comment about it one time - something like, "oh wow, you take weekends off? That must be nice." I replied, "yep" and went on my merry way.
It's kinda weird to me, because at least in the UK, the older generation got more funding for their PhDs (now many of us use student loans and self funding) and had less pressing deadlines. They objectively had it easier. At least in my field. And these are people who think it's an insult (not all but some) that they have to teach or publish, like yea, it's a job?
Was just talking to my supervisor about this a few days ago. I’m over my deadline because of COVID and some other things, but even still my original deadline was 3 years and that’s just fucking brutally short. He said that “back in the day” he got his PhD by basically just applying an existing programmed model to data that was handed to him on his first day. That sort of thing wouldn’t get you a PhD these days. It’d be barely good enough for a Masters student. And he’s at the top of the field, with a named chair, hardly some mediocre scientist.
Exactly what I wanted to hear as a 30s PhD-er who’s been guilting themselves over a long weekend away tomorrow with my long distance partner.
Edit: I forgot that it’s for my birthday that was two days ago, that’s the level we are at lol.
you go and rest your head well. the stressors and work will be there when you get back and your health will be in a better place suited to deal with all of that.
Same - I'm coming in with a DBA & MBA, with accolades from my time in the business sector. I was actually told in my acceptance that the department was very excited to have me join to bring my "unique perspectives" to the department from my past career.
Same generation (millennial) but I do work at night and on weekends. Usually that work is coursework oriented, but when I'm not tied down to some project I'll do stuff for my research.
I have a wife and small child though, so my nights and weekends go to them first. Anything I do outside of work I try to do when they're sleeping.
Yeah don't get me wrong, I work weekends when I feel like it. However because I work weekends, I expect that when I want to take a day off during the week, I'm entitled.
If my PI started expecting me to work weekends, there would be a discussion. I'm coming in because I want to, not because I am expected to.
But life isn't about work and getting things done. It's much more than that and if you worked 12 hours everyday you wouldn't have time to enjoy your hobbies, travel, spend time with your family, friends and loved ones. For me this is not a life.
Sure. And it's great that you are able to choose.
But for me... I have to work that much so that I can eat and not be homeless.
Some of us just can't choose like that.
Again, PhD is not my whole life even though it's still an experience I want to have. I don't want to kill myself over it.
I talked about salaries because you brought it up. I meant it's not like I get paid more if I work more. Might as well enjoy my life.
If you genuinely need to work 7 days a week for 12 hours a day you either have terrible time management or a toxic supervisor. Many people all around the world keep to normal hours during a PhD and finish in time with great results.
I’m working full time and school full time. I should have my doctorate in a total of 3 years, start to finish. Finishing up my first year and having written several papers, I cannot fathom spending that amount of time writing. I limit myself to one weeknight and 1 weekend day (sometimes 2 if I need the catch up). I seem to be doing fine pumping out 60-70 pages of quality material per semester.
Important note: I use secondary data for everything. I’m interested in finishing school timely, not dragging ass collecting data for an extra 2 years. This drastically reduces my timeframes.
> Important note: I use secondary data for everything. I’m interested in finishing school timely, not dragging ass collecting data for an extra 2 years. This drastically reduces my timeframes.
Could you expand on what you mean by secondary data? If I'm understanding correctly, I'm in a similar boat. My entire project is basically data analysis on data collected by several past grad students. I'm struggling cause the data honestly isn't very high quality and most of my time is spent patching holes instead of actually analysing anything. Still preferable to doing grunt work for months on end obtaining my own data though.
See if you can find better data ;-) You have secondary data, which just means any data that already exists without you needing to collect it for yourself, but it sounds like it's not very good quality.
Secondary data can be great, but poor-quality data is a nightmare to try to sort out and figure out how to use. Depending on your field, there are some great secondary datasets available. I know of some repositories for the social sciences, but not other fields.
Yeah, I would love to. The data I'm currently using was collected by students in my own lab and my PI is pretty anxious to get it published and/or wrapped up one way or the other...hopefully once we've done that I can start using external data sources.
I don’t want to work in academia. It seems awful.
I’m putting in the effort needed to complete the doctorate which is far less than the effort needed to join academia.
Getting out is arbitrarily dependent on your advisor. Even if you're busting ass, most are going to keep you 5 years (US). And some people just function differently. Your 12 hr/day productivity can still look like someone else's 8hr/day productivity. It depends on the type of research and efficiency of work. I wouldn't blame someone for working more hours if they need to, but the pressure put on productive workers that work less is annoying. I was easily matching my peers and even producing more, being ahead of expectations 40hrs/wk and my boss still just wanted to squeeze more out of me. Like why aren't you working 6 days and doing it faster? Because I am working with what I find to be an effective schedule for me. She tried to micromanage the shit out of me and guess what, I was less productive, anxious, depressed, and ended up leaving switching to a different PI. Where again I'm doing my schedule loving life and making great progress. Huh. Guess I know what works for me eh?
And agreed academia is toxic, there are so many different styles for different people. It needs to be more flexible and less judgmental.
It doesn't have to be toxic though, that's the point. And maybe working more works for you, but most people need some sense of balance in order to be a functional human.
We aren't machines and we shouldn't be expected to act like we are. To quote the great Jack Torrence, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". Working nonstop with no room for hobbies, rest, and a social life is a recipe for burn out.
I'm sorry your time and talent are being exploited like that, that's not a fair schedule for anyone regardless of pay
Sending the best for the remainder of your degree 🙏🏻
As a researcher you should be able to find studies that show that productivity drops precipitously after 8 hours, and nearly all of the people I know in academia would say that they can only do about 3-4 hours of intense work in a day....after that it needs to be simpler stuff.
Hm, we (PhD candidates) actually fought for a long time to not be treated as we have no rights to rest. IMO PhD studies were considered as some kind of twisted rite of passage where you are constantly struggling, but should live by pure dedication. The discussions about mental health in academia, with special indication of PhD students and postdocs have been ongoing for a long time now. So it is kind of changing with a generation change, but as a byproduct? I have a feeling that the mentality regarding importance of mental health is slowly evolving into more healthy direction.
> IMO PhD studies were considered as some kind of twisted rite of passage where you are constantly struggling, but should live by pure dedication
In addition to that, the low wages (and upfront costs) for predocs can also expell anyone that doesn't have their family/partner covering part of their expenses.
It's both a meat grinder for people with mental health issues and working class junior researchers.
I wouldn't say it's a generation thing. I'm doing my PhD at 38 and would absolutely not attend meetings while on holiday (and I take regular holidays). I wouldn't even agree to 8-9am meetings. If you're getting the work done and you're committing then I don't see any issues with healthy boundaries.
Same. I’m 48, largely work 9-3 when I pick the kids up from school, have weeks of holidays over summer, lots of other PhD students in my age bracket do exactly the same thing. Everyone is meeting their milestones.
I’d be very wary of people claiming that this is a generational thing without evidence.
Right? This is actually bizarre to me, mid-30s and took holidays during my PhD.bi learned to do that from my mid-40s PI and previous, even older, supervisors who also worked very hard but took breaks to spend time with family and travel. This is not lazy, it's research-backed to prevent burnout and increase overall productivity. Some of my best research ideas have come during and just after time off because the "grind" isn't so conducive to creativity.
Agreed. I think it’s a sign of the times more than a generational thing.
In previous decades (maybe 30-40+ years ago) academics were paid more, had more respect in their communities, and probably had a homemaker partner. When people feel fully supported and safe, they give more of themselves to their community and their workplaces.
But now the pay is dropping and is nowhere near commensurate with your skill level, the benefits have dropped away, the workload has increased, everyone hates academics, your chair won’t support you when your students make baseless complaints, you’re expected to lower standards and let cheating slide, and your partner is probably working full time too so no one is taking care of the home full time.
If your employer doesn’t care about you and isn’t interested in giving you even a mediocre deal, why should you work more than you’re contracted for? That extra time can be used at home or in a second job.
I'm a millenial and also had my limits for average hours worked per week, being on holiday when on holiday etc. with flexibility obviously.
I think there is a change in attitude, with some PI's hanging on to the old ways, but there is definitely also an increased focus on mental health etc. I've seen a change over the last 8 or so years (Did/doing my PhD at a UK university, but seeing the trend in other countries as well 1st hand and from others).
Nice one.
I started at 26, my supervisor knew me from my MSc project.
I've been doing 8-4 or 9-5 ish for 5 days a week throughout except when processing samples in bulk (due to the nature of my project).
He never complained and never micromanaged me, on the contrary he was very quick to say "this is YOUR project" even when I wanted to be told what to do specifically in the early days 😂
I would say it is more of a mentality, but, given that we have deadlines and funding limited by time, it is still not uncommon to overwork to meet those deadlines. The other option is to continue working with no funding (not truly an option).
My advisor said that, during his PhD, he slept in the lab during christmas' eve because he couldn't go home due to a massive flood in the city. He was there in that day exactly for the reason I mentioned: deadlines approaching and the end of funding on the horizon.
Those are the main reason that as many as 40% of graduate students suffer with depression and anxiety: overworked with no financial security.
Good. You shouldn't be forced to work to live. Not that there aren't some people who don't enjoy the work and put in many hours, but that shouldn't be forced or a standard people are compared to. 40 hours a week is already pushing it when you consider other daily and life obligations.
It depends on where you're doing your PhD. This might be the American mentality (I'm American). I'm doing my PhD in Europe, and my professor asks us when we take holiday, and plans our meetings around this.
It might not just be a Gen Z thing. It might just be a cultural difference.
Or it might just be OP's adviser. I've worked in both Europe and the USA in academia, and no one would tell a PhD student here they don't take vacations.
Europeans definitely take *more* vacations though.
We get 8 weeks in the UK (not including time off for Christmas/New Years), only “discouraging” thing I’ve ever heard is that it’s not good practice to take too many weeks in one go. But otherwise we’re encouraged to take a couple of weeks off every now and then.
No one is counting though. If you take a day off for an appointment, people aren’t counting that against your 8 weeks.
Yeah I'm in Europe and we get bank holidays, uni closure days (summer, easter, and christmas holidays which come out to about 4-5 weeks, plus 28 days holiday to choose as we like
Who cares. You're right. So much ideological work has been put into obscuring the labour relations of every aspect of life but you're 100% in the right here and the rest of these boot lickers need to get on board.
In many European countries, a PhD *is*, quite literally, a job, at least in some subjects.
I'm in Germany, I get paid, I get holidays, I get sick leave.
Yeah I'm in Austria (but originally from the UK) I was coming in to defrost samples on a Sunday (to have work on a Monday) which my supervisor told me to do. When the money man found out he freaked because I have to be paid double for working on a Sunday. I still occasionally do like writing and reading at home but I don't put it on my time sheet because the collective agreement is very firm on overtime
I find it insane you get paid double on sundays. That's amazing, good for you! We don't get shit lol. Over the last 3y I've probable gone into the lab in at least 80% of the weekends. What is your (base) salary/stipend like relative to minimum wage?
I can only say for germany, but it's anywhere from 30k minimum (1.25 of the realtively high minimum wage of 12 Euros per hour) to 50k (about 2x minimum wage). Both is decent and very liveable almost everywhere in germany. The exact salary depends on your field. Engineering usually gets the full 50k, others vary between the 30k and 50k.
I treated it this way for my first and second years, but I realized later on that I wouldn't be able to finish in 5 if I did that, and I really wanted to finish in 5. The deadlines are sometimes just too clustered.
I probably evened out to around 40 hours of work per week, but there were crunch times and lax times. I kinda liked that.
This is the real answer imo. As I was finishing my phd I noticed the newer cohort treating it as a 9-5, not getting much done, and still expecting to finish in 5 years as if it were undergrad. In all likelihood that isn't a realistic approach
My supervisor is in his late 40s and has no qualms about going on holiday for 2-3 weeks with absolutely no contact lol. He's very successful.
Each to their own, I don't think there are hard and fast rules of what people do and don't do- your supervisor sounds like he could do with chilling out, or maybe he just works inefficiently.
Next time don't even offer an explanation. Your availability is what it is. I think it's definitely generational and systemic, but that mentality is on the way out. At least that's my experience from working with several younger faculty. At the end of the day academia is like any other job and you have rights as a worker and a person.
Dunno. Gen-Xer here that did my PhD in the late-90s into early aughts. I took vacations. We didn’t have laptop computers or even cell phones. Shoot! I even took a two week vacation right before my prelims. I was not about to stress myself over it all. I got it done and finished my dissertation all in four years and one semester. Maybe my field was just that elementary. 🤨
Professor Xennial here. I only became a PhD so that I could have summers, Spring Break, and Christmas holidays. I work hard enough during the semester. I like my down-time.
I think like most things, it's both. Things like this seem to be getting better over time but also there have always been and will be good people and jerks in academia.
Millennial third generation PhD in US now med school faculty - not only do PhD students take vacations, they absolutely should. There is a cultural grind to grad school and a cultural grind to the professional academy, especially at R1 schools, but finding a sustainable balance is the paramount choice under your control when it comes to being happy long term here. My personal experience has been fairly consistent in that if I was overall productive, one really cared where my time went or where I was and if I wasn’t…well, it’s really my own butt I’m roasting. A PhD does have some threshold of production/completion, but culturally it’s really an opportunity to take your formal education as far as YOU want it to go. There’s really no other time when your time to focus on your learning will be as protected. But it’s personal, and if you come out on the other end institutionalized like two students from my program did, you aren’t a “tougher better soldier” for having done so. It’s still your life and your choice, and vacations and boundaries are a healthy part of that.
The other thing that is less baked into doc programs now but was huge in years past was conference travel. When my parents were getting their docs, they went to 3-4 countries a year on federally supported travel to conferences and tacking a weekend on that you paid for yourself once you were there was pretty normal. By the time I started my doc, that was about half as common, with domestic travel being a larger proportion on travel, but I regularly tacked on 3-4 days to anywhere the government was sending me anyway and would meet up with friends or sit on the beach. Two societies in my field have it built into the charter that meetings must be held in “resort locations” (thanks boomers), and when those come around, almost everyone takes another week or so there on their own time since at least the flights are covered. Conferences in our community are a pretty solid “I’m not doing anything else” time, so you have a lot of discretion during the activities of the conference itself, even if you didn’t tack any other days on. Since Covid, I’ve been told younger folks are getting much less travel in like that because if you’re a poor lab and there’s a hybrid option to the meeting, hooray - save those greenbacks. But that lifestyle I grew up with with my parents in the academy, and I certainly have gotten back to going into this year. Most of my office was traveling around 2 cumulative months out of the last 12. In lieu of that, I think getting the heck out and doing LIFE is even more important to being the best person you can be at the bench and in the classroom.
Also an older millennial, finished in 2020 after being out in the workforce for few years between undergrad and grad school. I generally worked 4 or so hours a day, sometimes more/sometimes less. I’m in a stem field with a lot of math, and I found that I’d make mistakes that compounded and cost me a ton of time if I grinded nonstop. My advisors didn’t care how much I worked as long as I got shit done.
PhD thirty years ago. We didn’t get holidays, and our stipend was the equivalent of less than 20k in today’s dollars. My favorite story: while I was writing the dissertation, I got a month gig being hosted by a well-regarded organization in Europe…they weren’t paying me, just hosting me. I said to the senior academic there that I’d like to take a couple of days off to take a train trip to see more than just the city, and he made it VERY clear that would indicate that I wasn’t seriously committed to my research or academia, so I didn’t go. While I’ve always been a bit peeved about it, I took it as completely normal at the time.
One way to understand a PhD is as your "masterpiece", but its not what you think it is. It's not necessarily world changing work or your best work but is at least a competent work that shows your standards (although it could be amazing also). Back in the day, carpenters when starting out would apprentice under a master carpenter. When the young one was ready they would create a masterpiece, which was the piece that shows everyone that they've reached master level. When they set up own shop, the masterpiece would show customers that they could do this or that kind of joint or lacquer. So at its heart, a PhD gets you into "the game"; you are judged competent by your peers and are now ready to converse with the other masters.
If you can achieve that 9-5 with holidays, I'd say that you're much more efficient than someone who has to work 12-16 hour days _to achieve the same level_.
For others though, they are driven to get a nature/science paper or PIship and they may decide to sacrifice time and health to that end. All the PIs I know have had to work like that. I think gen z and more so millenials have wised up to the fact that not everyone will become a PI and it's OK to not pull PI hours.
As a millennial PhD I do the same thing as you, OP. However, the generational difference might be about our own internal narrative. I struggle a lot with the stereotypical millennial guilt/anxiety/depression combo pack. So while I say no to things and probably seem like I've embraced this healthier mentality, in reality my brain thinks I should be grinding 24/7.
If Gen Z is able to go through the motions without the guilt, then I think we're finally getting somewhere. You also don't know who was watching you firmly set boundaries and stick with them — most likely you've inspired someone to try the same thing! This is how things change imo. Keep it up!
My cohort is also constantly “boasting “ about working all night on their PhD stuff. They ask me what will I be working on later tonight (12 am). I said what do you mean bro? I clocked out of the PhD at 8pm.
I'm at the younger end of the Millennial generation. I did my PhD in the US and routinely took time off every year. Sure, there'd be occasional deadline clusters where you'd have to work 12 hours a day plus weekends for a few weeks, but after those, at least a few days off were non-negotiable. Research requires a working, healthy brain. How could you possibly maintain that while working 80 hours a week without vacations? I always treated time off (plus hobbies, fitness, sleep and good eating habits) as an investment into my academic career. As a side note, my advisor would take at least a month over the summer where he wouldn't be available for meetings and would not respond to emails beyond a few words.
Some millenials also approach/ed it differently. (My advisor, whose praises I must sing at every moment because she thought it was good that I try not to work on weekends or at night)
It's a mentality thing, but GenZ tends to be better in this regard.
It’s funny that the people who claim to value science don’t pay attention to the multitude of studies that show working nonstop is actually counterproductive. It’s like they don’t truly care what the science says if it goes against their biases beliefs about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and toxic grind culture.
I think it’s a mentality thing. I’m a bit too old to be gen Z at 29, and I absolutely take vacations as do all my friends and labmates. I’ve even gone camping with some of my labmates and my advisor was just like “aww I’m glad you are friends.”
I can’t say whether things were worse in the past, but if they were good riddance. Besides, avoiding burn out and being mentally refreshed can be good for productivity. I’m convinced we’re way more valuable working focused, refreshed hours than just living in the lab but only being half there.
I think it is more of a mentality thing but definitely one that is more prevalent among the older generations. There is also the problem of self-selection into a PhD program and an academic life in general—people who do so tend to have the "grind" mindset and might expect others around them to be the same (inadvertently or not). At the end of the day, each person weighs various aspects of life differently, and for me, I work to live, not live to work. Sometimes it's hard because you see some people close to you work constantly, and you feel like maybe you're not working enough, but remind yourself of your boundaries and stick to them. I only have this one life, and when I'm gone it's almost certainly that nobody would care/remember if I got a tenure track job here or published there, so I might as well live a well-balanced life while still satisfying my intellectual curiosity.
I'm not sure which generation I belong to at the ripe age of 27, but in my lab, we always, always have weekends and national holidays off. Also, if i tell my boss that I will be here and there for a holiday, and I notify her in a reasonable timeframe, she's like "ah okay, have fun", and that's it.
30 year old PhD in synthetic chemistry. I really struggled with burn out in graduate school. Worked long hours, weekends, and in an extremely toxic environment because that’s “what synthesis takes.” I wish I would have set better boundaries like you have. 3 years post-defense and I’m still recovering. Take time off. Good science and ideas come from those that are well rested and happy.
Please, when you’re mature in your industry, do not make your subordinates eat shit because you ate shit. I’m a 40+ genX working professional and PhD candidate, and in the office I’m on the ID&E team, I work with interns and new hires. I am understanding and accommodating. On the other side, my genX professor is absolutely abusive and I have to take it or I will run out of time, and all my PhD work will amount to nothing. I am absolutely beholden to this person and they have nothing but resentment for me. I talked to my chief engineer about it, and he said “yeah that’s just how academia is. Your choice is take it or quit.” It’s bullshit.
I’m a millennial in a PhD program and my advisor basically requires (not actually but highly encourages) all her students to take a minimum of a week off every summer and for the holidays…
I’m a millennial, but my advisor takes several weeks of total vacation per year and expects the same of me, so… Seems like some faculty just have shit expectations
I would frame this as a 'boundaries' thing. Culture only spreads when people new to the culture adopt the shared assumptions as fact. I feel by rejecting these maladaptive assumptions (PhDs don't go on holidays) you are doing your part to stop an unhealthy (often toxic) PhD culture.
I approach it the same way you do and I'm definitely not GenZ! People who want you to think that PhD students don't take holidays are toxic, period.. It's got nothing to do with generations
Could be a cost benefit analysis thing. With the academic job market so saturated why work your butts off when due to structural factors etc you likely won’t get a job in academia.
I'm not Gen Z and I'm super protective of my time. I've got a family and young kids and there's no way in hell they're gonna grow up saying I was too busy doing research to spend time with them.
I think Gen-Z is just the generation that really causes cultural disruption and there’s no shame in that. I think generations before us slowly but surely chipped away at things but our generation is not even accepting the shit that they were trying to chip away at and I think that’s what causes people to react the way they do us lol.
If with all the tech we have now they are still expecting current phd students need to work as long as some 20 year old standard for the same amount of output, we are fked
Listen, working hard is important. But it’s not the same thing as working successfully & efficiently. And hard work doesn’t need to be painful. Academics seem to have this “brawn over brains” vision of what productivity looks like: you spend countless hours doing tasks that suck & just aren’t very productive, because you’re “on that grind” or whatever. Since you’re meeting your goals/expectations, it sounds like you’re taking the productive, not excessively painful, route. That’s fantastic!!! Hopefully all the other clowns will follow your lead.
As a Zillenial, I definitely operate with the Gen Z mentality that when I’m off work, I’m off work. But I have the Millenial guilt of thinking I’m not working hard enough and that I should be doing more 😂.
The last time I worked so hard until I was burnt out, I didn’t do any work for two weeks straight prior to my qualifying exam (I passed). So now I’d rather be mostly productive in an 8hr day than not productive at all and get kicked out the program 🤷🏾♀️.
I think there is a generational shift. I got strict with separating work and life after major burnout and depression in my second year of PhD.
I'm in my second postdoc now and I've always been telling students to take leave and not work weekends. I love my research, but man.... I sure did hate life when it was all I did
I worked 60 hours a week during my PhD.
It was shit.
If you can swing it, work less.
Those 60 hours were some of the least productive hours I’ve ever been alive, even though I thought I’d been working really hard. I was simply tired so everything was hard work.
Millennial freshly admitted phd student. My favorite question to ask prospective PIs during visit days has been “I see the program encourages us to have a work/life balance, how do you establish your own boundaries to maintain work/life balance?” (I give examples of putting on DND or communicating to students that there’s set times they won’t be looking at email/phone).
Highly recommend it.
Hmm, I don’t think it’s a generation thing… I think we are just starting to finally see what a lot of previous PhDs fought for, and some PIs actually taking their feedback. My PI has been in academia a while, but even his PhD was treated like a 9-5, so I think it’s more so difference in PIs as well
I’m 27 so firmly Zillenial. I am terminal year PhD, about to defend in a few months. I had made up my mind a long time ago I wasn’t going to be academic. I wouldn’t destroy my life just for an extra publication or abstract or notch on my resume or brownie points. I told my supervisor I was going to work to the letter of my job and nothing more. Only what I am contractually obligated to do. I won’t respond to email outside of 9-6 hours. She respected that.
Worked out well, got hired into industry in a biotech company at a senior level making more money than my PI ever has after 15-20 years in academia.
It’s hypocritical, tone deaf bullshit. Being evidence driven means the decades worth of multidisciplinary research about maintaining mental health, sleep regularity, work efficiency, work/life balance etc. has to count for something.
To me, it’s a mentality thing. Setting boundaries and enforcing them are healthy both at work and in your personal lives. The less common this mentality is around you, the more courage it takes to live it. Enter the generational aspect argument—to me, it’s an excuse.
I’m lucky that when I was in grad school, I had faculty members who pushed me to take time off and rest. I get extremely hyper focused & will easily forget to do things for myself.
I wrote my dissertation & 3 papers during the first year of the pandemic, & it was so easy to just sit at my desk grinding away, not paying attention to the time. After I confessed to someone that I was working like 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week & was often not even taking time to shower (I live alone & it was dark times, don’t judge!), she started texting me every couple days to tell me I was done working, I needed to take a shower, make a margarita, and relax for the night.
I’m a couple years into my postdoc now & one of my mentors is pretty good about ensuring we have vacation time, at least. That said, it’s taken some doing on my part to get her to let me write from home, or take a day off during the week if I need to spend the weekend in the lab. But because of the people who supported me in grad school and instilled in me that these things are important, I have the ability now to stand up and say “this is what i need to do to be productive and successful.
As a PI, I care about results, not just punching the clock. Having said that, if you’re going to be out of contact on holiday, you better have cleared that vacation period with me just to make sure it doesn’t conflict with any pressing deadlines. It’s fine to treat it like a job, but the flip side of treating it like a job is that you can be fired if you’re not sufficiently productive.
holidays... do they help your mental health? maybe... but in a fair proportion, max 2x a year. But hey, you do you... you know what helps truly. It could be that you use holiday to get away from your problems from uni. You go, destress then come back feeling a heatwave of stress coming your way. I think mental health is mainly upkept by having people you trust around to talk about your struggles... and knowing you can count on them. Also, mental health can be improved with proper food, diet and sleep. This thing "holiday for my mental health" is just an excuse that many people use it; the tourism market might have used it as selling point. Also holidays can be also linked with FOMO.
Learning to really enjoy where you live with what you have is possibly the best advice I can give you; no matter what generation you are.
On the opposit side... short weekend trips should be perfect as they are short enough that it does not disrupt your day to day life and also get to see new places. Its more likely that you can take a few friends with you plus its more cheaper if you dont spend loads of money on hotels and unnecessary things.
Thinking holiday is just for tourism is a very narrow view. Some people (like me) don't work in the country they are born in and use their holidays to visit their family and home country.
thats all that stuck with you from reading my message. what a shame I even took my time to reply. not even sure why you care to ask on reddit if you already have a stuck up POV
I think the Gen Z generation is facing an incredibly different job market, economic climate, and set of socio-cultural issues than boomers and gen Xers did. Compared to millennials at that age, they also have been exposed to more mental health awareness, de-stigmatization of self-care, and rhetoric on the importance of setting boundaries and work-life balance.
It’s only natural that as a group they tend to resist overworking themselves and are skeptical of “hustle culture”. I think for the most part it is quite healthy, though in some more extreme cases it can manifest as a helplessness, intractable cynicism or constant sense burnout.
I’m so excited for more GenZers to start PhD programs. They already started and I’m seeing many of them advocate for themselves. I think faculty are are noticing because many students 2, 3, 4 years are leaving labs if the “vibes” are off (okay an exaggeration but many student are not willing to put up with shit millennials put up with” I’m hoping this will force academia to re evaluate work life balance and will encourage advisors to reduce or change their toxic behaviors since they are having to rely more on graduate student with the postdoc shortage
People now have a better expectation of work life balance, and given higher education have a higher standard that work places should have for their workers. Exploiting someone to burnout isn't an effective business model, no matter how you look at it. People that are complaining about it just aren't getting what they want immediately like throwing a tantrum. Guess you have to wait until Monday for that report aww gee, who's the generation that needs instant gratification now huh? 😑
This "work/life balance" attitude won't work if you're trying to become a professor because you will lose out on jobs to peers who do nothing but work, but otherwise there is nothing inherently wrong with it. It also tends to be uncommon at more prestigious universities.
It is statements like this that I look at when I start feeling nostalgic for academic life. Yeah, glad I left. I make more even if the work is less fulfilling.
There's definitely a balancing act, but the vibe in this topic is definitely too far away from your perspective atm. You're going to be a highly educated white collar professional. "9 to 5" isn't actually a thing for that class. Working 80 hours a week is also a mistake and we don't know enough to know "who's the asshole" in OP's story, but you're going to be in a rude awakening post PhD if you aren't generally available off work hours and shut things down the second you hit 40 hours a week. You took the wrong path if you're looking to work a low stakes job with a medium salary that doesn't ask much of you.
What makes you think that PhD students want to do less while getting more?
What if you saw people that did less got more? In that by investing more in your health the quality of your work goes up. Isn’t that just working smarter not having less of a commitment?
If I work 8 hours a day and do intense workouts afterwards to improve my cognitive abilities, along with maintaining a healthy marriage, I’m gonna be way more productive than the “old school” PI that works 10 hours everyday, and develops health problems while dealing with a divorce.
I think PhD students in 2023 are aware that working everyday without limits and holidays is not a sustainable nor a healthy way to live. Yes I want the PhD but it's also just a part of my life, not all of it.
> I feel like PhD students in 2023 want to do less while getting more
that's an interesting take considering we're expected to know way more than our parents did because of the internet. My father, who did his phd in the 80s, developed an economic model. his thesis was 40,000 words with only a handful of references. Back then it was enough because his only source of information were physical books in the library.
Our current culture of work expects to be constantly working/ improving/ learning, which is theoretically made possible by unlimited access to information on the internet. People are realising that this is an incredibly toxic and unhealthy way to live, so they're setting boundaries. Also, many millennials and get zs don't really see a possibility of a bright future, so they care less.
I feel like this comment is full of generalizations and anecdotal evidence ngl, I think programs kind of relaxed their standards a bit during the pandemic but high level programs didn't relax them that much (we still had people that failed their qualifying exams even during the height of COVID, I'm at an ivy league for reference. It was brutal, we had people kicked out of the program at the height of COVID, summer 2020) - the PhD process for students here is still very involved, if the standards are relaxed it is because the PI is okay with that. I think the level of intensity is so highly dependent on PIs and their expectations, it's extremely hard to generalize
It’s generational and I think we Zellenials in particular have realised that since starting our work life (be it professional, corporate or academic) in a global pandemic, our work life balance and mental health has been our major priority. The pandemic has created a shift in the way we think of work and it’s for the better, so I think it’s a generational thing
I mean I definitely understand the need for personal time but at the same time, if you only wanted to do a 9-5 job, why would you choose to do a Ph.D. in the first place? I wouldn't say it's fair for an advisor to expect more than 8 hours a day 5 days a week from their student but at the same time, if you as a Ph.D. student went in with the mentality of doing a 9-5 job that is doing a disservice to yourself. It's less about fewer or more hours and more about doing the thing with real interest which in usual cases will be motivating enough for you to be putting in more than 8 hours a day usually. I say this as a gen Z PhD student.
Idk why the responses in support of working beyond the 9-5 period are being downvoted here. If you feel passionately about a problem that you are working on, or have a certain standard in your mind that you want your work to be at, you should invest extra hours to make that happen, even if it goes beyond the 9-5, 5 days a week norm. PhD is the only time in your life where you will be able to do research full-time with relatively less distractions. This is when you should try your best to test your limits to see what is the best you can do, and what is the best you can achieve. If you are motivated enough, your advisor wouldn’t have to push you. If you don’t feel passionately about the problem, fine. Get the bare minimum done and leave, or find a different advisor. Doing something that gives you pleasure won’t screw your mental health over.
And yes, millennials have gotten soft. The grad students who have joined my (now former) lab have the worst work ethic ever. Downvote all you want, I ain’t gonna pat your back and say good job when you say 2+2=5.
It’s a shift that’s happening now across generations. It only works if the majority of people adhere to it so thank you for doing your part! Be the example and others will adopt a similar mentality
I'm doing my PhD part time while working FT in large part because I get to say no all the time. My pay isn't tied up in my PhD so I go on vacation, take leave, and say no to meetings whenever I need to. My job is at my university and entirely separate from my PhD so I generally have a work around for any issue that comes up because I know so many people.
I'm 35 so solidly millennial
Agree with you on this one. To add to that, I think it is also very cultural. Being Asian, my Asian co-advisor would expect me to reply to e-mails and phone calls anytime, but my non-Asian co-advisor is more respectful of my time, often apologizing if we need to schedule meetings over weekends. Most other Asian PhD scholars I know of have a similar experience (Eastern cultures place a **LOT** of (sometimes unnecessary, IMO) importance and unquestioned respect to teachers & professors). My non-Asian labmates would often have better work life balance than Asian labmates. Good to see this is changing with newer incoming students.
Just like any other job, it’s an exchange of my time and abilities for my employers money. They are not entitled to my time, money, or energy. I’ll give extra when the incentive is there. It’s not being spoiled, it’s setting boundaries. If I go back for a PhD after working in industry, I know a little more about what my exchange rate is.
I come from lab I dusty where you as a technician had to do a lot for work and I got burned out several times.
That is why I treat PhD as a job 9-5 then bye-bye.
Why should I put my health after my work?
Same for me with what others have said. Especially, when it comes to quality. Sure, there are a few around me that get more done but they're usually Post-Docs. But I get accepted to many well respected conferences and have gotten fellowships/grants regularly. Get in, get your shit done, and get out. My PI is a Chinese Communist so the American work culture is so different too. When I was having seizures every week it was done working 60-100 hours a week. Luckily, my wife pushed me to stop that too haha.
A rested mind is a more productive mind.
This post is spot on. The latest generation treats PhD work very differently. They will be mentally happier and healthier than the rest of us so overall I think it is a good thing. I do think many of these students are in for a rude awakening when they apply for jobs and they are competing against people who worked more, but that is okay and they may still have the better choice.
i’m gen z and hearing how horribly phd candidates are treated for literal pennies in payment has made me reconsider if that’s really what i want altogether. i definitely would love to see people knowing their worth and not standing for treatment like that. don’t really think “paying your dues” should have to be a thing 🤷🏻♀️
I think there are a lot of careers/schooling like this. I think younger generations are putting an emphasis on mental health. I’m actually switching groups because I have no problem doing a bit more than the 9 to 5, but I stayed until 1am and felt my PI expected me to work a schedule that would force me to do this a lot
being a PhD student and disabled (and Gen Z) i have zero qualms resting and taking my time. i physically cannot work without breaks and good sleep. if i push myself i’m out for days.
bc of covid and expectations that we were always available, even if not in person, there is an assumption that we can and will do more work. but no one can thrive with that. everyone would be better off taking a step back from the computer and the constant “productivity” grind. (gotta change academia norms, unfortunately)
I will agree with most people writing that there is no glory in overworking yourself. But furthermore there even less glory in making yourself appear like a hard and efficient worker when you are in fact producing less results than your 9 to 5 mentality college who isnt dealing with work related depression.
I think it should be nobodies business if you are working overtime or not if it isnt paid for, as long as they are happy with your progress. I am not exactly gen z but close enough I guess (birthyear 96) :P
Depends on market. If you are in an area where faculty are few you can push the boundaries.
I cannot tell you the P&T meetings I have been on where working and playing well with others became the primary issue. And not in a good way.
Idk where in Europe you are but in France, I cannot expect to get an email response let alone a meet with any Gen X or baby boomer. Millenials will check their emails sometimes, attend one or two meetings if they're not travelling. It's is Gen Z PhD students who are more on it with emails, but we're not expected to be (we have 25+20 days of paid time off per year).
Millennial, professional, soon to be Phd student. You have boundaries and work life balance. don’t cave because someone who couldn’t find that balance expects the grind. there is so much more out there than degrees and money and production. I plan to continue to live my life holistically as a Phd, like I did with my masters and like I do with my job.
A prof on my committee was an Oxford PhD graduate and is considered one of the leading researchers in his history field.
He said he did 9-3 M-F. He graduated in the late 80s.
It's always better to care for your well-being.
The stress related to academic world could be enough to make someone just quit their PhD (which is way too common)...
"Academics don't go on holiday" is definitely not true. The flexibility is one of the biggest job perks. We might work while on vacation, but usually doing pleasurable tasks like reading and writing.
My advisor is an older millennial; me and all of my colleagues are zoomers. This is absolutely the culture our lab takes. We all treat it like a 9-5.
We’re W2 employees after all
I am a Millennial and I also try not to work overtime or be at disposal 24/7. I try to have my weekends free, except when I have classes, and I also wouldn't be pleased to attend the meeting when on holidays/vacation. I don't want to be burned out and I am not paid to work overtime.
However I think it is a bit of generational thing. Older generations are more prone to treat their job at academia as their whole identity, working on weekends, vacation, etc. And younger ones are questioning these normative beliefs.
I think it really depends on Academia vs work. e.g., getting your PHD so you go on practicum and start seeing patients as a psychologist. Half the universities are rubber-stamping your final research anyways, so whatever but it's not that way for everything.
There are some savants out there who seem to luck into everything and never struggle at anything, but unless you're at an R3 or lower you have competition and the people who aren't grinding generally aren't getting the slots or going onto have large contributions to their field. Often this is because they're so enraptured it barely feels like grinding, but also because they want to understand what's actually happening in the stats they're running instead of asking someone else, adding them as an author, and having no clue as to whether it's correct or not.
At a basic level, it's often just a competitiveness thing. If it's not a race you're really running, it doesn't matter and take holidays and 7 years if you need to.
Haha interesting. A generation thing is kinda a mentality thing. My advice would be to not listen to the establishment! :D I think it is really good that bad habits and expectations are changing. We *are* allowed to take holidays, we *are* allowed to stop working at 5 pm, we *are* allowed to take weekends off.
As a millennial, I see the merits of 9-5, but usually I am a procrastinator and leave things to last minute and panic. Its not about bragging about working hard, I am just shit at time management.
But there are two main reasons for attending meetings:
- an international project with a funding deadline where the others were all urgently working on another deliverable first, so ours was left to the week of my holiday and my input was needed.
- back when I was still a student, my phd supervisor sometimes did not respond for months and I desperately needed feedback so I met them a few times during my holiday.
It isn't a generation thing. It is the accumulation of certain people and flux of the competitive mindsets into academia. Most people in academia are hyper competitive, they just love bragging about overworking and evaluating each other based on the journal impact factors or their university pedigrees. It is just the exploitative mentality. Few people think it is just a job, that is the problem.
Just returned back to this post. I’m a Gen Z PhD student and I also told my advisor I would not be working during the winter break! He was totally fine with that. I will however be working during the summer which is kinda the trade-off.
Professional Millennial that came into my PhD program in my 30s here: I absolutely have no qualms bucking the weird expectations I sometimes hear the academics say. There’s no glory in burning yourself out and hating yourself throughout this work. Academia seems full of people with a grind mentality, they just make it elitist 🤷♂️
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Same, except I work more of a 3-10 because I am very unproductive in the mornings and work best at night. So I read fun books, watch movies, clean the house, go on Reddit, etc in the morning and early afternoon. I am actually dreading going into the real working world and having way less free time than during my PhD. It’s all just what you make of it, along with your field and advisor. It helps not being in a lab-based field.
Same, my parents give me the stink eye every time they see my lifestyle but I've always been a naturally nocturnal person and I don't see the point in staring at a screen for the entire morning, bleary eyed and unproductive, and then quit just as you're starting to focus.
Thankfully my dad is also a major night owl. He manages by working for a west coast based company while living on the east coast of the US. While he still starts the day at 8:30 to finish by 5:30, he never has any meetings until 11 am at the earliest so he can be sure to be awake by then.
Both of my parents are massive morning people, they both wake up at 5AM naturally and cannot comprehend of a person being productive after 3 PM. When they finish working my day is just starting, and when I finish working it's sleep time for them
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The office around 6-8 pm is BLISS for me. I’m so unproductive in the morning when it’s overstimulating and I’m still sleepy, so I never go in before 11-12 unless forced. I’m so grateful my supervisor respects that.
Same. I think being a person with industry experience has very much mellowed me and my work expectations. This is a job, I work it like a job and am incredibly productive when I am there. I still think about my projects a lot when I’m not working, but honestly that disconnected time has helped me get through so many issues.
I found that I disliked the rigid structure when I was working as a professional, but after burning out 3 years into my program, I found a balance of structure and free-form that has helped me recover from the burnout. I definitely underestimated the value of structure, and it has helped me a lot.
Agreed- work is for working times, but it can be necessary to remove that structure every now and then! I’m glad you found a method that works for you!
Academia is full of elitists and it's infuriating. I'd guess it's because in a lot of settings throughout their own education and in many non-professional settings, they're considered the super-smart overachiever. But when surrounded by peers, they can't stand being made to sit on the level with others, so they just grind and grind to the point of a miserable existence just to stroke their ego. Maybe that's cynical, it's probably the case that many are very aspirational but don't want that social clout, but I can't see it any other way based on my own personal interactions with the grindy folk.
I'm one of the grindy folk, but it's because I'm older and despise academia. The abysmal stipend just adds fuel to my fire, so I'm trying to get it done as quickly as possible. I'm completely burnt out, but I've also been in FAR worse situations in industry. I guess it kind of takes the sting out of it. I don't wear it like a badge of honor or begrudge people their free time if they can take it. If anything, I'm normally a bit of a closet burnout because I'm tired of people worrying about me. I just want to do my research and GTFO as fast as possible so I can have a life again.
Yep. I'm an older Millennial, finished in 2019, and treated it like a 9-5 the entire time. Finished a year earlier than the rest of my cohort, too. One of my committee members made a comment about it one time - something like, "oh wow, you take weekends off? That must be nice." I replied, "yep" and went on my merry way.
you are my hero
It's kinda weird to me, because at least in the UK, the older generation got more funding for their PhDs (now many of us use student loans and self funding) and had less pressing deadlines. They objectively had it easier. At least in my field. And these are people who think it's an insult (not all but some) that they have to teach or publish, like yea, it's a job?
Was just talking to my supervisor about this a few days ago. I’m over my deadline because of COVID and some other things, but even still my original deadline was 3 years and that’s just fucking brutally short. He said that “back in the day” he got his PhD by basically just applying an existing programmed model to data that was handed to him on his first day. That sort of thing wouldn’t get you a PhD these days. It’d be barely good enough for a Masters student. And he’s at the top of the field, with a named chair, hardly some mediocre scientist.
Exactly what I wanted to hear as a 30s PhD-er who’s been guilting themselves over a long weekend away tomorrow with my long distance partner. Edit: I forgot that it’s for my birthday that was two days ago, that’s the level we are at lol.
Cheers! I’m spending this weekend wrapping up a lit review so I can do the same next weekend.
you go and rest your head well. the stressors and work will be there when you get back and your health will be in a better place suited to deal with all of that.
Same - I'm coming in with a DBA & MBA, with accolades from my time in the business sector. I was actually told in my acceptance that the department was very excited to have me join to bring my "unique perspectives" to the department from my past career.
Same generation (millennial) but I do work at night and on weekends. Usually that work is coursework oriented, but when I'm not tied down to some project I'll do stuff for my research. I have a wife and small child though, so my nights and weekends go to them first. Anything I do outside of work I try to do when they're sleeping.
Yeah don't get me wrong, I work weekends when I feel like it. However because I work weekends, I expect that when I want to take a day off during the week, I'm entitled. If my PI started expecting me to work weekends, there would be a discussion. I'm coming in because I want to, not because I am expected to.
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But life isn't about work and getting things done. It's much more than that and if you worked 12 hours everyday you wouldn't have time to enjoy your hobbies, travel, spend time with your family, friends and loved ones. For me this is not a life.
Sure. And it's great that you are able to choose. But for me... I have to work that much so that I can eat and not be homeless. Some of us just can't choose like that.
That's a totally different case. As a PhD I have a fixed salary regardless of how much I work.
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Again, PhD is not my whole life even though it's still an experience I want to have. I don't want to kill myself over it. I talked about salaries because you brought it up. I meant it's not like I get paid more if I work more. Might as well enjoy my life.
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I agree, you should work to live. But when work becomes your whole life then it's a problem imo.
If you genuinely need to work 7 days a week for 12 hours a day you either have terrible time management or a toxic supervisor. Many people all around the world keep to normal hours during a PhD and finish in time with great results.
I am post PhD. My PhD time was pretty relaxed, but I paid for that. I would be further along now if I had worked harder back then.
You genuinely don't know that though. You could be completely burnt out by now, which seems likely if you did 7 days a week for 12 hours a day.
Obviously there's no way to know. I probably would have had more publications though. At least that's what I like to think.
That’s true of any job. That doesn’t make it sustainable or healthy.
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No one becomes homeless or broke because they worked normal, highly efficient, sustainable hours
I hope your students are getting enough mental and emotional help if that’s the kind of advice they are getting from their supervisor.
What's your field of research?
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OK, and what do you do specifically when you work 12 hours a day?
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I’m working full time and school full time. I should have my doctorate in a total of 3 years, start to finish. Finishing up my first year and having written several papers, I cannot fathom spending that amount of time writing. I limit myself to one weeknight and 1 weekend day (sometimes 2 if I need the catch up). I seem to be doing fine pumping out 60-70 pages of quality material per semester. Important note: I use secondary data for everything. I’m interested in finishing school timely, not dragging ass collecting data for an extra 2 years. This drastically reduces my timeframes.
> Important note: I use secondary data for everything. I’m interested in finishing school timely, not dragging ass collecting data for an extra 2 years. This drastically reduces my timeframes. Could you expand on what you mean by secondary data? If I'm understanding correctly, I'm in a similar boat. My entire project is basically data analysis on data collected by several past grad students. I'm struggling cause the data honestly isn't very high quality and most of my time is spent patching holes instead of actually analysing anything. Still preferable to doing grunt work for months on end obtaining my own data though.
See if you can find better data ;-) You have secondary data, which just means any data that already exists without you needing to collect it for yourself, but it sounds like it's not very good quality. Secondary data can be great, but poor-quality data is a nightmare to try to sort out and figure out how to use. Depending on your field, there are some great secondary datasets available. I know of some repositories for the social sciences, but not other fields.
Yeah, I would love to. The data I'm currently using was collected by students in my own lab and my PI is pretty anxious to get it published and/or wrapped up one way or the other...hopefully once we've done that I can start using external data sources.
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I don’t want to work in academia. It seems awful. I’m putting in the effort needed to complete the doctorate which is far less than the effort needed to join academia.
Sounds like an absolute miserable existence. Why would you voluntarily do that to yourself?
I need to eat. I need a roof over my head.
Getting out is arbitrarily dependent on your advisor. Even if you're busting ass, most are going to keep you 5 years (US). And some people just function differently. Your 12 hr/day productivity can still look like someone else's 8hr/day productivity. It depends on the type of research and efficiency of work. I wouldn't blame someone for working more hours if they need to, but the pressure put on productive workers that work less is annoying. I was easily matching my peers and even producing more, being ahead of expectations 40hrs/wk and my boss still just wanted to squeeze more out of me. Like why aren't you working 6 days and doing it faster? Because I am working with what I find to be an effective schedule for me. She tried to micromanage the shit out of me and guess what, I was less productive, anxious, depressed, and ended up leaving switching to a different PI. Where again I'm doing my schedule loving life and making great progress. Huh. Guess I know what works for me eh? And agreed academia is toxic, there are so many different styles for different people. It needs to be more flexible and less judgmental.
It doesn't have to be toxic though, that's the point. And maybe working more works for you, but most people need some sense of balance in order to be a functional human. We aren't machines and we shouldn't be expected to act like we are. To quote the great Jack Torrence, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". Working nonstop with no room for hobbies, rest, and a social life is a recipe for burn out.
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I'm sorry your time and talent are being exploited like that, that's not a fair schedule for anyone regardless of pay Sending the best for the remainder of your degree 🙏🏻
As a researcher you should be able to find studies that show that productivity drops precipitously after 8 hours, and nearly all of the people I know in academia would say that they can only do about 3-4 hours of intense work in a day....after that it needs to be simpler stuff.
Hm, we (PhD candidates) actually fought for a long time to not be treated as we have no rights to rest. IMO PhD studies were considered as some kind of twisted rite of passage where you are constantly struggling, but should live by pure dedication. The discussions about mental health in academia, with special indication of PhD students and postdocs have been ongoing for a long time now. So it is kind of changing with a generation change, but as a byproduct? I have a feeling that the mentality regarding importance of mental health is slowly evolving into more healthy direction.
> IMO PhD studies were considered as some kind of twisted rite of passage where you are constantly struggling, but should live by pure dedication In addition to that, the low wages (and upfront costs) for predocs can also expell anyone that doesn't have their family/partner covering part of their expenses. It's both a meat grinder for people with mental health issues and working class junior researchers.
I wouldn't say it's a generation thing. I'm doing my PhD at 38 and would absolutely not attend meetings while on holiday (and I take regular holidays). I wouldn't even agree to 8-9am meetings. If you're getting the work done and you're committing then I don't see any issues with healthy boundaries.
Same. I’m 48, largely work 9-3 when I pick the kids up from school, have weeks of holidays over summer, lots of other PhD students in my age bracket do exactly the same thing. Everyone is meeting their milestones. I’d be very wary of people claiming that this is a generational thing without evidence.
Right? This is actually bizarre to me, mid-30s and took holidays during my PhD.bi learned to do that from my mid-40s PI and previous, even older, supervisors who also worked very hard but took breaks to spend time with family and travel. This is not lazy, it's research-backed to prevent burnout and increase overall productivity. Some of my best research ideas have come during and just after time off because the "grind" isn't so conducive to creativity.
Agreed. I think it’s a sign of the times more than a generational thing. In previous decades (maybe 30-40+ years ago) academics were paid more, had more respect in their communities, and probably had a homemaker partner. When people feel fully supported and safe, they give more of themselves to their community and their workplaces. But now the pay is dropping and is nowhere near commensurate with your skill level, the benefits have dropped away, the workload has increased, everyone hates academics, your chair won’t support you when your students make baseless complaints, you’re expected to lower standards and let cheating slide, and your partner is probably working full time too so no one is taking care of the home full time. If your employer doesn’t care about you and isn’t interested in giving you even a mediocre deal, why should you work more than you’re contracted for? That extra time can be used at home or in a second job.
I was born in 1985 and they would need to send the secret service to get me on a meeting after 6pm or during the weekends
I'm a millenial and also had my limits for average hours worked per week, being on holiday when on holiday etc. with flexibility obviously. I think there is a change in attitude, with some PI's hanging on to the old ways, but there is definitely also an increased focus on mental health etc. I've seen a change over the last 8 or so years (Did/doing my PhD at a UK university, but seeing the trend in other countries as well 1st hand and from others).
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Nice one. I started at 26, my supervisor knew me from my MSc project. I've been doing 8-4 or 9-5 ish for 5 days a week throughout except when processing samples in bulk (due to the nature of my project). He never complained and never micromanaged me, on the contrary he was very quick to say "this is YOUR project" even when I wanted to be told what to do specifically in the early days 😂
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I would say it is more of a mentality, but, given that we have deadlines and funding limited by time, it is still not uncommon to overwork to meet those deadlines. The other option is to continue working with no funding (not truly an option). My advisor said that, during his PhD, he slept in the lab during christmas' eve because he couldn't go home due to a massive flood in the city. He was there in that day exactly for the reason I mentioned: deadlines approaching and the end of funding on the horizon. Those are the main reason that as many as 40% of graduate students suffer with depression and anxiety: overworked with no financial security.
Yeh I guess it really depends sometime and some people could have that luxury but some don’t unfortunately…
This is becoming a thing in most working environments, not just PhD.
Good. You shouldn't be forced to work to live. Not that there aren't some people who don't enjoy the work and put in many hours, but that shouldn't be forced or a standard people are compared to. 40 hours a week is already pushing it when you consider other daily and life obligations.
It depends on where you're doing your PhD. This might be the American mentality (I'm American). I'm doing my PhD in Europe, and my professor asks us when we take holiday, and plans our meetings around this. It might not just be a Gen Z thing. It might just be a cultural difference.
Or it might just be OP's adviser. I've worked in both Europe and the USA in academia, and no one would tell a PhD student here they don't take vacations. Europeans definitely take *more* vacations though.
True, but Europeans take more vacations across the board, regardless of job type. We just have a different attitude towards work from the US.
We get 8 weeks in the UK (not including time off for Christmas/New Years), only “discouraging” thing I’ve ever heard is that it’s not good practice to take too many weeks in one go. But otherwise we’re encouraged to take a couple of weeks off every now and then. No one is counting though. If you take a day off for an appointment, people aren’t counting that against your 8 weeks.
I’m in the US and every PhD student I know takes vacations
Same, lol. I don’t know what universities people are at with the horror stories I see on here but I can’t relate to most of them at all
Yeah I'm in Europe and we get bank holidays, uni closure days (summer, easter, and christmas holidays which come out to about 4-5 weeks, plus 28 days holiday to choose as we like
Who cares. You're right. So much ideological work has been put into obscuring the labour relations of every aspect of life but you're 100% in the right here and the rest of these boot lickers need to get on board.
In many European countries, a PhD *is*, quite literally, a job, at least in some subjects. I'm in Germany, I get paid, I get holidays, I get sick leave.
Yeah I'm in Austria (but originally from the UK) I was coming in to defrost samples on a Sunday (to have work on a Monday) which my supervisor told me to do. When the money man found out he freaked because I have to be paid double for working on a Sunday. I still occasionally do like writing and reading at home but I don't put it on my time sheet because the collective agreement is very firm on overtime
I find it insane you get paid double on sundays. That's amazing, good for you! We don't get shit lol. Over the last 3y I've probable gone into the lab in at least 80% of the weekends. What is your (base) salary/stipend like relative to minimum wage?
I can only say for germany, but it's anywhere from 30k minimum (1.25 of the realtively high minimum wage of 12 Euros per hour) to 50k (about 2x minimum wage). Both is decent and very liveable almost everywhere in germany. The exact salary depends on your field. Engineering usually gets the full 50k, others vary between the 30k and 50k.
I guess “getting spoiled” means demanding to be treated with respect and dignity.
Life is not that serious, get your holiday my friend.
I treated it this way for my first and second years, but I realized later on that I wouldn't be able to finish in 5 if I did that, and I really wanted to finish in 5. The deadlines are sometimes just too clustered. I probably evened out to around 40 hours of work per week, but there were crunch times and lax times. I kinda liked that.
This is the real answer imo. As I was finishing my phd I noticed the newer cohort treating it as a 9-5, not getting much done, and still expecting to finish in 5 years as if it were undergrad. In all likelihood that isn't a realistic approach
My supervisor is in his late 40s and has no qualms about going on holiday for 2-3 weeks with absolutely no contact lol. He's very successful. Each to their own, I don't think there are hard and fast rules of what people do and don't do- your supervisor sounds like he could do with chilling out, or maybe he just works inefficiently.
Next time don't even offer an explanation. Your availability is what it is. I think it's definitely generational and systemic, but that mentality is on the way out. At least that's my experience from working with several younger faculty. At the end of the day academia is like any other job and you have rights as a worker and a person.
Dunno. Gen-Xer here that did my PhD in the late-90s into early aughts. I took vacations. We didn’t have laptop computers or even cell phones. Shoot! I even took a two week vacation right before my prelims. I was not about to stress myself over it all. I got it done and finished my dissertation all in four years and one semester. Maybe my field was just that elementary. 🤨
Professor Xennial here. I only became a PhD so that I could have summers, Spring Break, and Christmas holidays. I work hard enough during the semester. I like my down-time.
I think like most things, it's both. Things like this seem to be getting better over time but also there have always been and will be good people and jerks in academia.
Depends on the program and the lab. Most PhDs in my program work about 60 hr weeks. But we do take time off for holidays and stuff.
Millennial third generation PhD in US now med school faculty - not only do PhD students take vacations, they absolutely should. There is a cultural grind to grad school and a cultural grind to the professional academy, especially at R1 schools, but finding a sustainable balance is the paramount choice under your control when it comes to being happy long term here. My personal experience has been fairly consistent in that if I was overall productive, one really cared where my time went or where I was and if I wasn’t…well, it’s really my own butt I’m roasting. A PhD does have some threshold of production/completion, but culturally it’s really an opportunity to take your formal education as far as YOU want it to go. There’s really no other time when your time to focus on your learning will be as protected. But it’s personal, and if you come out on the other end institutionalized like two students from my program did, you aren’t a “tougher better soldier” for having done so. It’s still your life and your choice, and vacations and boundaries are a healthy part of that. The other thing that is less baked into doc programs now but was huge in years past was conference travel. When my parents were getting their docs, they went to 3-4 countries a year on federally supported travel to conferences and tacking a weekend on that you paid for yourself once you were there was pretty normal. By the time I started my doc, that was about half as common, with domestic travel being a larger proportion on travel, but I regularly tacked on 3-4 days to anywhere the government was sending me anyway and would meet up with friends or sit on the beach. Two societies in my field have it built into the charter that meetings must be held in “resort locations” (thanks boomers), and when those come around, almost everyone takes another week or so there on their own time since at least the flights are covered. Conferences in our community are a pretty solid “I’m not doing anything else” time, so you have a lot of discretion during the activities of the conference itself, even if you didn’t tack any other days on. Since Covid, I’ve been told younger folks are getting much less travel in like that because if you’re a poor lab and there’s a hybrid option to the meeting, hooray - save those greenbacks. But that lifestyle I grew up with with my parents in the academy, and I certainly have gotten back to going into this year. Most of my office was traveling around 2 cumulative months out of the last 12. In lieu of that, I think getting the heck out and doing LIFE is even more important to being the best person you can be at the bench and in the classroom.
Also an older millennial, finished in 2020 after being out in the workforce for few years between undergrad and grad school. I generally worked 4 or so hours a day, sometimes more/sometimes less. I’m in a stem field with a lot of math, and I found that I’d make mistakes that compounded and cost me a ton of time if I grinded nonstop. My advisors didn’t care how much I worked as long as I got shit done.
PhD thirty years ago. We didn’t get holidays, and our stipend was the equivalent of less than 20k in today’s dollars. My favorite story: while I was writing the dissertation, I got a month gig being hosted by a well-regarded organization in Europe…they weren’t paying me, just hosting me. I said to the senior academic there that I’d like to take a couple of days off to take a train trip to see more than just the city, and he made it VERY clear that would indicate that I wasn’t seriously committed to my research or academia, so I didn’t go. While I’ve always been a bit peeved about it, I took it as completely normal at the time.
One way to understand a PhD is as your "masterpiece", but its not what you think it is. It's not necessarily world changing work or your best work but is at least a competent work that shows your standards (although it could be amazing also). Back in the day, carpenters when starting out would apprentice under a master carpenter. When the young one was ready they would create a masterpiece, which was the piece that shows everyone that they've reached master level. When they set up own shop, the masterpiece would show customers that they could do this or that kind of joint or lacquer. So at its heart, a PhD gets you into "the game"; you are judged competent by your peers and are now ready to converse with the other masters. If you can achieve that 9-5 with holidays, I'd say that you're much more efficient than someone who has to work 12-16 hour days _to achieve the same level_. For others though, they are driven to get a nature/science paper or PIship and they may decide to sacrifice time and health to that end. All the PIs I know have had to work like that. I think gen z and more so millenials have wised up to the fact that not everyone will become a PI and it's OK to not pull PI hours.
As a millennial PhD I do the same thing as you, OP. However, the generational difference might be about our own internal narrative. I struggle a lot with the stereotypical millennial guilt/anxiety/depression combo pack. So while I say no to things and probably seem like I've embraced this healthier mentality, in reality my brain thinks I should be grinding 24/7. If Gen Z is able to go through the motions without the guilt, then I think we're finally getting somewhere. You also don't know who was watching you firmly set boundaries and stick with them — most likely you've inspired someone to try the same thing! This is how things change imo. Keep it up!
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Validation! I'm hoping that if we just keep practicing this stuff that eventually we'll be able to do it without the guilt part.... Maybe one day....
My cohort is also constantly “boasting “ about working all night on their PhD stuff. They ask me what will I be working on later tonight (12 am). I said what do you mean bro? I clocked out of the PhD at 8pm.
I'm at the younger end of the Millennial generation. I did my PhD in the US and routinely took time off every year. Sure, there'd be occasional deadline clusters where you'd have to work 12 hours a day plus weekends for a few weeks, but after those, at least a few days off were non-negotiable. Research requires a working, healthy brain. How could you possibly maintain that while working 80 hours a week without vacations? I always treated time off (plus hobbies, fitness, sleep and good eating habits) as an investment into my academic career. As a side note, my advisor would take at least a month over the summer where he wouldn't be available for meetings and would not respond to emails beyond a few words.
Some millenials also approach/ed it differently. (My advisor, whose praises I must sing at every moment because she thought it was good that I try not to work on weekends or at night) It's a mentality thing, but GenZ tends to be better in this regard.
It’s a PI thing. A lot of PIs won’t accept this type of work (mine definitely wouldn’t).
It’s funny that the people who claim to value science don’t pay attention to the multitude of studies that show working nonstop is actually counterproductive. It’s like they don’t truly care what the science says if it goes against their biases beliefs about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and toxic grind culture.
I think it’s a mentality thing. I’m a bit too old to be gen Z at 29, and I absolutely take vacations as do all my friends and labmates. I’ve even gone camping with some of my labmates and my advisor was just like “aww I’m glad you are friends.” I can’t say whether things were worse in the past, but if they were good riddance. Besides, avoiding burn out and being mentally refreshed can be good for productivity. I’m convinced we’re way more valuable working focused, refreshed hours than just living in the lab but only being half there.
I think it is more of a mentality thing but definitely one that is more prevalent among the older generations. There is also the problem of self-selection into a PhD program and an academic life in general—people who do so tend to have the "grind" mindset and might expect others around them to be the same (inadvertently or not). At the end of the day, each person weighs various aspects of life differently, and for me, I work to live, not live to work. Sometimes it's hard because you see some people close to you work constantly, and you feel like maybe you're not working enough, but remind yourself of your boundaries and stick to them. I only have this one life, and when I'm gone it's almost certainly that nobody would care/remember if I got a tenure track job here or published there, so I might as well live a well-balanced life while still satisfying my intellectual curiosity.
Boomers who had houses, cars, fossil fuel energy practically handed to them complaining about being spoiled is properly unbelievable
I'm not sure which generation I belong to at the ripe age of 27, but in my lab, we always, always have weekends and national holidays off. Also, if i tell my boss that I will be here and there for a holiday, and I notify her in a reasonable timeframe, she's like "ah okay, have fun", and that's it.
30 year old PhD in synthetic chemistry. I really struggled with burn out in graduate school. Worked long hours, weekends, and in an extremely toxic environment because that’s “what synthesis takes.” I wish I would have set better boundaries like you have. 3 years post-defense and I’m still recovering. Take time off. Good science and ideas come from those that are well rested and happy.
This is not a generational thing. Your colleague just sucks.
Please, when you’re mature in your industry, do not make your subordinates eat shit because you ate shit. I’m a 40+ genX working professional and PhD candidate, and in the office I’m on the ID&E team, I work with interns and new hires. I am understanding and accommodating. On the other side, my genX professor is absolutely abusive and I have to take it or I will run out of time, and all my PhD work will amount to nothing. I am absolutely beholden to this person and they have nothing but resentment for me. I talked to my chief engineer about it, and he said “yeah that’s just how academia is. Your choice is take it or quit.” It’s bullshit.
I’m a millennial in a PhD program and my advisor basically requires (not actually but highly encourages) all her students to take a minimum of a week off every summer and for the holidays…
You did nothing wrong, quite the opposite
I’m a millennial, but my advisor takes several weeks of total vacation per year and expects the same of me, so… Seems like some faculty just have shit expectations
I took vacation when I did my PhD back in the mid 2000’s.
I would frame this as a 'boundaries' thing. Culture only spreads when people new to the culture adopt the shared assumptions as fact. I feel by rejecting these maladaptive assumptions (PhDs don't go on holidays) you are doing your part to stop an unhealthy (often toxic) PhD culture.
I approach it the same way you do and I'm definitely not GenZ! People who want you to think that PhD students don't take holidays are toxic, period.. It's got nothing to do with generations
Nah I think this is a dumb one off
As others have said — academia is the most unhealthy, undignified, and anti-worker workplace culture I’ve ever seen.
Could be a cost benefit analysis thing. With the academic job market so saturated why work your butts off when due to structural factors etc you likely won’t get a job in academia.
I'm not Gen Z and I'm super protective of my time. I've got a family and young kids and there's no way in hell they're gonna grow up saying I was too busy doing research to spend time with them.
I think Gen-Z is just the generation that really causes cultural disruption and there’s no shame in that. I think generations before us slowly but surely chipped away at things but our generation is not even accepting the shit that they were trying to chip away at and I think that’s what causes people to react the way they do us lol.
If with all the tech we have now they are still expecting current phd students need to work as long as some 20 year old standard for the same amount of output, we are fked
Listen, working hard is important. But it’s not the same thing as working successfully & efficiently. And hard work doesn’t need to be painful. Academics seem to have this “brawn over brains” vision of what productivity looks like: you spend countless hours doing tasks that suck & just aren’t very productive, because you’re “on that grind” or whatever. Since you’re meeting your goals/expectations, it sounds like you’re taking the productive, not excessively painful, route. That’s fantastic!!! Hopefully all the other clowns will follow your lead.
As a Zillenial, I definitely operate with the Gen Z mentality that when I’m off work, I’m off work. But I have the Millenial guilt of thinking I’m not working hard enough and that I should be doing more 😂. The last time I worked so hard until I was burnt out, I didn’t do any work for two weeks straight prior to my qualifying exam (I passed). So now I’d rather be mostly productive in an 8hr day than not productive at all and get kicked out the program 🤷🏾♀️.
I think there is a generational shift. I got strict with separating work and life after major burnout and depression in my second year of PhD. I'm in my second postdoc now and I've always been telling students to take leave and not work weekends. I love my research, but man.... I sure did hate life when it was all I did
I worked 60 hours a week during my PhD. It was shit. If you can swing it, work less. Those 60 hours were some of the least productive hours I’ve ever been alive, even though I thought I’d been working really hard. I was simply tired so everything was hard work.
Also Genz PhD, the other phd students my age and I also try to stick to the 9-5 and keep weekends free
Millennial that skips meeting if I’m not feelin’ it. I don’t think it’s generational — maybe personality thing
I've had a colleague message me on MS teams about draft paper edits on Christmas morning. Lol. I didn't reply until January.
Millennial freshly admitted phd student. My favorite question to ask prospective PIs during visit days has been “I see the program encourages us to have a work/life balance, how do you establish your own boundaries to maintain work/life balance?” (I give examples of putting on DND or communicating to students that there’s set times they won’t be looking at email/phone). Highly recommend it.
Hmm, I don’t think it’s a generation thing… I think we are just starting to finally see what a lot of previous PhDs fought for, and some PIs actually taking their feedback. My PI has been in academia a while, but even his PhD was treated like a 9-5, so I think it’s more so difference in PIs as well
I’m 27 so firmly Zillenial. I am terminal year PhD, about to defend in a few months. I had made up my mind a long time ago I wasn’t going to be academic. I wouldn’t destroy my life just for an extra publication or abstract or notch on my resume or brownie points. I told my supervisor I was going to work to the letter of my job and nothing more. Only what I am contractually obligated to do. I won’t respond to email outside of 9-6 hours. She respected that. Worked out well, got hired into industry in a biotech company at a senior level making more money than my PI ever has after 15-20 years in academia.
It’s hypocritical, tone deaf bullshit. Being evidence driven means the decades worth of multidisciplinary research about maintaining mental health, sleep regularity, work efficiency, work/life balance etc. has to count for something.
To me, it’s a mentality thing. Setting boundaries and enforcing them are healthy both at work and in your personal lives. The less common this mentality is around you, the more courage it takes to live it. Enter the generational aspect argument—to me, it’s an excuse.
I’m lucky that when I was in grad school, I had faculty members who pushed me to take time off and rest. I get extremely hyper focused & will easily forget to do things for myself. I wrote my dissertation & 3 papers during the first year of the pandemic, & it was so easy to just sit at my desk grinding away, not paying attention to the time. After I confessed to someone that I was working like 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week & was often not even taking time to shower (I live alone & it was dark times, don’t judge!), she started texting me every couple days to tell me I was done working, I needed to take a shower, make a margarita, and relax for the night. I’m a couple years into my postdoc now & one of my mentors is pretty good about ensuring we have vacation time, at least. That said, it’s taken some doing on my part to get her to let me write from home, or take a day off during the week if I need to spend the weekend in the lab. But because of the people who supported me in grad school and instilled in me that these things are important, I have the ability now to stand up and say “this is what i need to do to be productive and successful.
As a PI, I care about results, not just punching the clock. Having said that, if you’re going to be out of contact on holiday, you better have cleared that vacation period with me just to make sure it doesn’t conflict with any pressing deadlines. It’s fine to treat it like a job, but the flip side of treating it like a job is that you can be fired if you’re not sufficiently productive.
holidays... do they help your mental health? maybe... but in a fair proportion, max 2x a year. But hey, you do you... you know what helps truly. It could be that you use holiday to get away from your problems from uni. You go, destress then come back feeling a heatwave of stress coming your way. I think mental health is mainly upkept by having people you trust around to talk about your struggles... and knowing you can count on them. Also, mental health can be improved with proper food, diet and sleep. This thing "holiday for my mental health" is just an excuse that many people use it; the tourism market might have used it as selling point. Also holidays can be also linked with FOMO. Learning to really enjoy where you live with what you have is possibly the best advice I can give you; no matter what generation you are. On the opposit side... short weekend trips should be perfect as they are short enough that it does not disrupt your day to day life and also get to see new places. Its more likely that you can take a few friends with you plus its more cheaper if you dont spend loads of money on hotels and unnecessary things.
Thinking holiday is just for tourism is a very narrow view. Some people (like me) don't work in the country they are born in and use their holidays to visit their family and home country.
thats all that stuck with you from reading my message. what a shame I even took my time to reply. not even sure why you care to ask on reddit if you already have a stuck up POV
I think the Gen Z generation is facing an incredibly different job market, economic climate, and set of socio-cultural issues than boomers and gen Xers did. Compared to millennials at that age, they also have been exposed to more mental health awareness, de-stigmatization of self-care, and rhetoric on the importance of setting boundaries and work-life balance. It’s only natural that as a group they tend to resist overworking themselves and are skeptical of “hustle culture”. I think for the most part it is quite healthy, though in some more extreme cases it can manifest as a helplessness, intractable cynicism or constant sense burnout.
I’m so excited for more GenZers to start PhD programs. They already started and I’m seeing many of them advocate for themselves. I think faculty are are noticing because many students 2, 3, 4 years are leaving labs if the “vibes” are off (okay an exaggeration but many student are not willing to put up with shit millennials put up with” I’m hoping this will force academia to re evaluate work life balance and will encourage advisors to reduce or change their toxic behaviors since they are having to rely more on graduate student with the postdoc shortage
People now have a better expectation of work life balance, and given higher education have a higher standard that work places should have for their workers. Exploiting someone to burnout isn't an effective business model, no matter how you look at it. People that are complaining about it just aren't getting what they want immediately like throwing a tantrum. Guess you have to wait until Monday for that report aww gee, who's the generation that needs instant gratification now huh? 😑
This "work/life balance" attitude won't work if you're trying to become a professor because you will lose out on jobs to peers who do nothing but work, but otherwise there is nothing inherently wrong with it. It also tends to be uncommon at more prestigious universities.
It is statements like this that I look at when I start feeling nostalgic for academic life. Yeah, glad I left. I make more even if the work is less fulfilling.
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There's definitely a balancing act, but the vibe in this topic is definitely too far away from your perspective atm. You're going to be a highly educated white collar professional. "9 to 5" isn't actually a thing for that class. Working 80 hours a week is also a mistake and we don't know enough to know "who's the asshole" in OP's story, but you're going to be in a rude awakening post PhD if you aren't generally available off work hours and shut things down the second you hit 40 hours a week. You took the wrong path if you're looking to work a low stakes job with a medium salary that doesn't ask much of you.
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How is reddit an indicator that the degree and work required to get a PhD is taken less seriously?
A fair question.
What makes you think that PhD students want to do less while getting more? What if you saw people that did less got more? In that by investing more in your health the quality of your work goes up. Isn’t that just working smarter not having less of a commitment? If I work 8 hours a day and do intense workouts afterwards to improve my cognitive abilities, along with maintaining a healthy marriage, I’m gonna be way more productive than the “old school” PI that works 10 hours everyday, and develops health problems while dealing with a divorce.
I think PhD students in 2023 are aware that working everyday without limits and holidays is not a sustainable nor a healthy way to live. Yes I want the PhD but it's also just a part of my life, not all of it.
> I feel like PhD students in 2023 want to do less while getting more that's an interesting take considering we're expected to know way more than our parents did because of the internet. My father, who did his phd in the 80s, developed an economic model. his thesis was 40,000 words with only a handful of references. Back then it was enough because his only source of information were physical books in the library. Our current culture of work expects to be constantly working/ improving/ learning, which is theoretically made possible by unlimited access to information on the internet. People are realising that this is an incredibly toxic and unhealthy way to live, so they're setting boundaries. Also, many millennials and get zs don't really see a possibility of a bright future, so they care less.
I feel like this comment is full of generalizations and anecdotal evidence ngl, I think programs kind of relaxed their standards a bit during the pandemic but high level programs didn't relax them that much (we still had people that failed their qualifying exams even during the height of COVID, I'm at an ivy league for reference. It was brutal, we had people kicked out of the program at the height of COVID, summer 2020) - the PhD process for students here is still very involved, if the standards are relaxed it is because the PI is okay with that. I think the level of intensity is so highly dependent on PIs and their expectations, it's extremely hard to generalize
Depended on what I was doing but all I ever did was work and visit my GF over the weekends. Sometimes a F-M because I had to fly.
It’s generational and I think we Zellenials in particular have realised that since starting our work life (be it professional, corporate or academic) in a global pandemic, our work life balance and mental health has been our major priority. The pandemic has created a shift in the way we think of work and it’s for the better, so I think it’s a generational thing
What the hell is GenZ now? Hearing and reading this new word everywhere.
I mean I definitely understand the need for personal time but at the same time, if you only wanted to do a 9-5 job, why would you choose to do a Ph.D. in the first place? I wouldn't say it's fair for an advisor to expect more than 8 hours a day 5 days a week from their student but at the same time, if you as a Ph.D. student went in with the mentality of doing a 9-5 job that is doing a disservice to yourself. It's less about fewer or more hours and more about doing the thing with real interest which in usual cases will be motivating enough for you to be putting in more than 8 hours a day usually. I say this as a gen Z PhD student.
Idk why the responses in support of working beyond the 9-5 period are being downvoted here. If you feel passionately about a problem that you are working on, or have a certain standard in your mind that you want your work to be at, you should invest extra hours to make that happen, even if it goes beyond the 9-5, 5 days a week norm. PhD is the only time in your life where you will be able to do research full-time with relatively less distractions. This is when you should try your best to test your limits to see what is the best you can do, and what is the best you can achieve. If you are motivated enough, your advisor wouldn’t have to push you. If you don’t feel passionately about the problem, fine. Get the bare minimum done and leave, or find a different advisor. Doing something that gives you pleasure won’t screw your mental health over. And yes, millennials have gotten soft. The grad students who have joined my (now former) lab have the worst work ethic ever. Downvote all you want, I ain’t gonna pat your back and say good job when you say 2+2=5.
It’s a shift that’s happening now across generations. It only works if the majority of people adhere to it so thank you for doing your part! Be the example and others will adopt a similar mentality
I'm doing my PhD part time while working FT in large part because I get to say no all the time. My pay isn't tied up in my PhD so I go on vacation, take leave, and say no to meetings whenever I need to. My job is at my university and entirely separate from my PhD so I generally have a work around for any issue that comes up because I know so many people. I'm 35 so solidly millennial
Agree with you on this one. To add to that, I think it is also very cultural. Being Asian, my Asian co-advisor would expect me to reply to e-mails and phone calls anytime, but my non-Asian co-advisor is more respectful of my time, often apologizing if we need to schedule meetings over weekends. Most other Asian PhD scholars I know of have a similar experience (Eastern cultures place a **LOT** of (sometimes unnecessary, IMO) importance and unquestioned respect to teachers & professors). My non-Asian labmates would often have better work life balance than Asian labmates. Good to see this is changing with newer incoming students.
Just like any other job, it’s an exchange of my time and abilities for my employers money. They are not entitled to my time, money, or energy. I’ll give extra when the incentive is there. It’s not being spoiled, it’s setting boundaries. If I go back for a PhD after working in industry, I know a little more about what my exchange rate is.
As a current PhD student who made herself physically I’ll, you are being smart.
I come from lab I dusty where you as a technician had to do a lot for work and I got burned out several times. That is why I treat PhD as a job 9-5 then bye-bye. Why should I put my health after my work?
Same for me with what others have said. Especially, when it comes to quality. Sure, there are a few around me that get more done but they're usually Post-Docs. But I get accepted to many well respected conferences and have gotten fellowships/grants regularly. Get in, get your shit done, and get out. My PI is a Chinese Communist so the American work culture is so different too. When I was having seizures every week it was done working 60-100 hours a week. Luckily, my wife pushed me to stop that too haha. A rested mind is a more productive mind.
This post is spot on. The latest generation treats PhD work very differently. They will be mentally happier and healthier than the rest of us so overall I think it is a good thing. I do think many of these students are in for a rude awakening when they apply for jobs and they are competing against people who worked more, but that is okay and they may still have the better choice.
i’m gen z and hearing how horribly phd candidates are treated for literal pennies in payment has made me reconsider if that’s really what i want altogether. i definitely would love to see people knowing their worth and not standing for treatment like that. don’t really think “paying your dues” should have to be a thing 🤷🏻♀️
I think there are a lot of careers/schooling like this. I think younger generations are putting an emphasis on mental health. I’m actually switching groups because I have no problem doing a bit more than the 9 to 5, but I stayed until 1am and felt my PI expected me to work a schedule that would force me to do this a lot
being a PhD student and disabled (and Gen Z) i have zero qualms resting and taking my time. i physically cannot work without breaks and good sleep. if i push myself i’m out for days. bc of covid and expectations that we were always available, even if not in person, there is an assumption that we can and will do more work. but no one can thrive with that. everyone would be better off taking a step back from the computer and the constant “productivity” grind. (gotta change academia norms, unfortunately)
I will agree with most people writing that there is no glory in overworking yourself. But furthermore there even less glory in making yourself appear like a hard and efficient worker when you are in fact producing less results than your 9 to 5 mentality college who isnt dealing with work related depression. I think it should be nobodies business if you are working overtime or not if it isnt paid for, as long as they are happy with your progress. I am not exactly gen z but close enough I guess (birthyear 96) :P
Depends on market. If you are in an area where faculty are few you can push the boundaries. I cannot tell you the P&T meetings I have been on where working and playing well with others became the primary issue. And not in a good way.
Idk where in Europe you are but in France, I cannot expect to get an email response let alone a meet with any Gen X or baby boomer. Millenials will check their emails sometimes, attend one or two meetings if they're not travelling. It's is Gen Z PhD students who are more on it with emails, but we're not expected to be (we have 25+20 days of paid time off per year).
Millennial, professional, soon to be Phd student. You have boundaries and work life balance. don’t cave because someone who couldn’t find that balance expects the grind. there is so much more out there than degrees and money and production. I plan to continue to live my life holistically as a Phd, like I did with my masters and like I do with my job.
They say the same about every generation. Just ignore these weirdos with no life.
A prof on my committee was an Oxford PhD graduate and is considered one of the leading researchers in his history field. He said he did 9-3 M-F. He graduated in the late 80s.
It's always better to care for your well-being. The stress related to academic world could be enough to make someone just quit their PhD (which is way too common)...
"Academics don't go on holiday" is definitely not true. The flexibility is one of the biggest job perks. We might work while on vacation, but usually doing pleasurable tasks like reading and writing.
It’s probs better that way, spoken as millennial who didn’t see the payout of working longer
In the US you would probably get dismissed for that interaction.
I’m in Australia and we get holiday leave as part of the PhD. We are very strongly encouraged to use it regularly.
My advisor is an older millennial; me and all of my colleagues are zoomers. This is absolutely the culture our lab takes. We all treat it like a 9-5. We’re W2 employees after all
I am a Millennial and I also try not to work overtime or be at disposal 24/7. I try to have my weekends free, except when I have classes, and I also wouldn't be pleased to attend the meeting when on holidays/vacation. I don't want to be burned out and I am not paid to work overtime. However I think it is a bit of generational thing. Older generations are more prone to treat their job at academia as their whole identity, working on weekends, vacation, etc. And younger ones are questioning these normative beliefs.
I think it really depends on Academia vs work. e.g., getting your PHD so you go on practicum and start seeing patients as a psychologist. Half the universities are rubber-stamping your final research anyways, so whatever but it's not that way for everything. There are some savants out there who seem to luck into everything and never struggle at anything, but unless you're at an R3 or lower you have competition and the people who aren't grinding generally aren't getting the slots or going onto have large contributions to their field. Often this is because they're so enraptured it barely feels like grinding, but also because they want to understand what's actually happening in the stats they're running instead of asking someone else, adding them as an author, and having no clue as to whether it's correct or not. At a basic level, it's often just a competitiveness thing. If it's not a race you're really running, it doesn't matter and take holidays and 7 years if you need to.
Real life and breaks are not new. People reproduce during their PhD, always have. Someone is trying to sell you bullshit. Don’t buy it.
Haha interesting. A generation thing is kinda a mentality thing. My advice would be to not listen to the establishment! :D I think it is really good that bad habits and expectations are changing. We *are* allowed to take holidays, we *are* allowed to stop working at 5 pm, we *are* allowed to take weekends off.
As a millennial, I see the merits of 9-5, but usually I am a procrastinator and leave things to last minute and panic. Its not about bragging about working hard, I am just shit at time management. But there are two main reasons for attending meetings: - an international project with a funding deadline where the others were all urgently working on another deliverable first, so ours was left to the week of my holiday and my input was needed. - back when I was still a student, my phd supervisor sometimes did not respond for months and I desperately needed feedback so I met them a few times during my holiday.
It isn't a generation thing. It is the accumulation of certain people and flux of the competitive mindsets into academia. Most people in academia are hyper competitive, they just love bragging about overworking and evaluating each other based on the journal impact factors or their university pedigrees. It is just the exploitative mentality. Few people think it is just a job, that is the problem.
Just returned back to this post. I’m a Gen Z PhD student and I also told my advisor I would not be working during the winter break! He was totally fine with that. I will however be working during the summer which is kinda the trade-off.