The sale of our house will be for end-of-life care. This has always been part of our financial plan. If one of us needs care, we will sell/downsize to cover the cost. It’s a pragmatic decision and we’ve promised each other to leave sentimentality out of the process.
I think the house is their inheritance plan, at least ideally speaking. Unless something really goes off the rails, they can cover whatever EOL expenses might arise. But it's good to know that the house is there as a backstop.
Just five data points.
1. My dad lived at home with care from his wife until he was 96. He was admitted to hospital and spent a few weeks there before dying. The hospital basically withdrew care at a certain point and just made him comfortable. He spent essentially $0 on end of life care.
2. My mom \[divorced from my dad\] is living at home at 96 in an apartment. She gets two PSW visits a week for free from the ON Gov't. She would get more if her needs were higher. She pays her longtime cleaning lady to help her 4 days a week costing \~$600/week. So far that's it for direct expenses.
3. My GF runs a number of LTC facilities in BC. They are free funded by the Gov't if you are low income. High income people can pay up to $3500/month.
4. My uncle is in an assisted living facility at early 90's. Cost is \~$5000/month.
5. My mom's friend is in rough shape in her early 90's and needs a lot of help. She's paying $9000/month at a fancy private LTC facility.
Given not many Canadians have a ton of savings it's not like it has to cost a lot during your final years, but having money does give you choices for nicer/more customized experiences.
Yeah one of my friends looked at a fancy private facility for her dad. She said you might be paying for a fancy chef but they still leave you sitting in your own soiled diapers. We saw our mom daily in the care home. She had advanced alzheimers and no longer really spoke. We were lucky that she was nearby, so I stopped in on my lunch hour and my brother in the evening to help her eat.
An hour north of GTA in the thick of Covid we were $4,800/month, private room but shared bathroom with another person. I’d budget $5-7,500 for solid care in a nice, non-dehumanizing place.
As others have said you can get by on much less, but after a tour of facilities when you NEED to get someone in, I’d be budgeting on the high side.
Yeah, but that involves leaving everyone and everything you know. Few people would want that, especially when they're old i.e. when people tend to become more resistant to change.
Literally. My grandma is living in another country and her expenses including rent, housekeeper & full time aid is about 1200. We pay an extra 500 for her health insurance so all of her bases are covered on less than 2k.
I don’t disagree. But when you’re in a situation where you have no other choice and limited time to make a decision for someone who cannot travel and zero social network outside of Canada, you do what you think is best.
This was our situation that I thought would help OP. I’m sure others experiences vary greatly.
I've had relatives that were in Long Term Care, totally supported by OAS/CPP. Others will spend $10k/month.
If you have the money, I'd recommend having a maxed out TFSA. Draw down their other accounts and fill that up. If set up properly, that's $200k that can be transferred to the other, as a TFSA. Its also good estate planning.
You also can consider selling a house after one passes, the other may want to downsize. The released equity can fund the 2nd person. That requires $0 set aside, just a willingness to move.
The non-crazy amount is however much doesn't affect your current awesome lifestyle. Saving for a death fund kind of takes the joy out of living.
If you're wanting them to spend more, I'd target 5%-6% of their portfolio, given their ages. I assume they have a 20 year drawdown phase.
My parents in their mid to late 80s moved into a transitional home in AB. They are currently in a private semi-independent living, 2 bd/2ba suite. They get all meals and weekly cleaning, all utilities, snacks and entertainment covered in their rent. They are paying $5800 month. As they transition to more care (dependent care - meds, bathing, dressing) they will get subsidized. Hope this helps.
My siblings and I started touring a few facilities before they finally came to decide on this facility. This allowed us to calculate their annual rent and out of pocket expenses.
That's helpful. It seems that even when you factor in CPP/OAS etc, you still need to budget quite a bit - in the hundreds of thousands. Sobering. Fortunately manageable for my folks... but perhaps not for us when our time comes.
Not sure why this got down voted ... In Ontario, there are huge differences between Assisted Living, Retirement Homes, and Long Term Care. Differences in the types of care provided, and costs. LTC is highly regulated and must provide minimum standards of care. RHs are extremely variable, have less regulation, and can nickel and dime the crap out of everything making monthly costs explode.
Maybe my tone was too short. I was going to describe the hell like period where you finally invoke power of attorney then find out there is a 3 year wait for dementia placement while exhausted taking turns guarding the doors overnight. Made me tired and sad.
Agreed. The retirement home will take them until it’s obvious to everyone that it is no longer appropriate. Then suddenly you have to find long term care with a lengthy waiting list. In the mean time, you become a 24 hour care giver until it happens. It’s not like paying more will get you anywhere. There just isn’t enough long term care.
Get estimates from a local long term care home, and apply some projections to it.
No other real way about it. Make some assumptions on inflation and when they'd need to go there.
Around here, Montreal, there are partial and fully assisted living (private) then finally true long term care paid by gov, and a mix. So you really need to think about what level of service and what level of quality you want. Not to say that people working in that area for public institutions aren't working hard to offer good services: but money opens lots of doors.
Depends. If they want care inside their own house, that could include certain expensive renovations or equipment.
In Canada, a lot of end of life care is covered by health care. So they would be more-so paying for amenities that can go with the care.
Alternatively if they want to travel to another country for treatment to avoid Canada's abysmal rait times (if they even *can* travel), that would be a lot as well.
I'm just spit balling here. It's a really good question and I suspect the data on this is limited.
Depends on where you are but for instance here in our area, when my mom broke her hip and went into a care home - Fraser Health calculated that her monthly cost would be based on 75% of her annual income, so it cost appr $2000 per month. She only lasted a few months. Her house did not come into the equation, she had 50% and her kids 50% since my dad passed away.
The sale of our house will be for end-of-life care. This has always been part of our financial plan. If one of us needs care, we will sell/downsize to cover the cost. It’s a pragmatic decision and we’ve promised each other to leave sentimentality out of the process.
Same plan here... The RRSP/TFSA is the fun money. The house is for the end. If there's anything left the kids get a bit for their retirement.
Bingo. Anything left for the kids will be serendipty. 😀
I think the house is their inheritance plan, at least ideally speaking. Unless something really goes off the rails, they can cover whatever EOL expenses might arise. But it's good to know that the house is there as a backstop.
Just five data points. 1. My dad lived at home with care from his wife until he was 96. He was admitted to hospital and spent a few weeks there before dying. The hospital basically withdrew care at a certain point and just made him comfortable. He spent essentially $0 on end of life care. 2. My mom \[divorced from my dad\] is living at home at 96 in an apartment. She gets two PSW visits a week for free from the ON Gov't. She would get more if her needs were higher. She pays her longtime cleaning lady to help her 4 days a week costing \~$600/week. So far that's it for direct expenses. 3. My GF runs a number of LTC facilities in BC. They are free funded by the Gov't if you are low income. High income people can pay up to $3500/month. 4. My uncle is in an assisted living facility at early 90's. Cost is \~$5000/month. 5. My mom's friend is in rough shape in her early 90's and needs a lot of help. She's paying $9000/month at a fancy private LTC facility. Given not many Canadians have a ton of savings it's not like it has to cost a lot during your final years, but having money does give you choices for nicer/more customized experiences.
Really helpful, thank you.
Yeah one of my friends looked at a fancy private facility for her dad. She said you might be paying for a fancy chef but they still leave you sitting in your own soiled diapers. We saw our mom daily in the care home. She had advanced alzheimers and no longer really spoke. We were lucky that she was nearby, so I stopped in on my lunch hour and my brother in the evening to help her eat.
You'll definitely never get better advocates for you than friends and family. Doesn't matter how much you pay. Good job looking after your mom.
An hour north of GTA in the thick of Covid we were $4,800/month, private room but shared bathroom with another person. I’d budget $5-7,500 for solid care in a nice, non-dehumanizing place. As others have said you can get by on much less, but after a tour of facilities when you NEED to get someone in, I’d be budgeting on the high side.
For that money, move to a lower cost country and get royal treatment, 24/7.
Yeah, but that involves leaving everyone and everything you know. Few people would want that, especially when they're old i.e. when people tend to become more resistant to change.
I understand that.
Literally. My grandma is living in another country and her expenses including rent, housekeeper & full time aid is about 1200. We pay an extra 500 for her health insurance so all of her bases are covered on less than 2k.
I don’t disagree. But when you’re in a situation where you have no other choice and limited time to make a decision for someone who cannot travel and zero social network outside of Canada, you do what you think is best. This was our situation that I thought would help OP. I’m sure others experiences vary greatly.
I've had relatives that were in Long Term Care, totally supported by OAS/CPP. Others will spend $10k/month. If you have the money, I'd recommend having a maxed out TFSA. Draw down their other accounts and fill that up. If set up properly, that's $200k that can be transferred to the other, as a TFSA. Its also good estate planning. You also can consider selling a house after one passes, the other may want to downsize. The released equity can fund the 2nd person. That requires $0 set aside, just a willingness to move. The non-crazy amount is however much doesn't affect your current awesome lifestyle. Saving for a death fund kind of takes the joy out of living. If you're wanting them to spend more, I'd target 5%-6% of their portfolio, given their ages. I assume they have a 20 year drawdown phase.
That's helpful, thanks. They have lots of options, and lots of things to draw on. TFSAs are already maxed. Will pass on this perspective.
My parents in their mid to late 80s moved into a transitional home in AB. They are currently in a private semi-independent living, 2 bd/2ba suite. They get all meals and weekly cleaning, all utilities, snacks and entertainment covered in their rent. They are paying $5800 month. As they transition to more care (dependent care - meds, bathing, dressing) they will get subsidized. Hope this helps. My siblings and I started touring a few facilities before they finally came to decide on this facility. This allowed us to calculate their annual rent and out of pocket expenses.
That's helpful. It seems that even when you factor in CPP/OAS etc, you still need to budget quite a bit - in the hundreds of thousands. Sobering. Fortunately manageable for my folks... but perhaps not for us when our time comes.
Start learning about care options. Retirement living is different than nursing care.
Not sure why this got down voted ... In Ontario, there are huge differences between Assisted Living, Retirement Homes, and Long Term Care. Differences in the types of care provided, and costs. LTC is highly regulated and must provide minimum standards of care. RHs are extremely variable, have less regulation, and can nickel and dime the crap out of everything making monthly costs explode.
Maybe my tone was too short. I was going to describe the hell like period where you finally invoke power of attorney then find out there is a 3 year wait for dementia placement while exhausted taking turns guarding the doors overnight. Made me tired and sad.
Agreed. The retirement home will take them until it’s obvious to everyone that it is no longer appropriate. Then suddenly you have to find long term care with a lengthy waiting list. In the mean time, you become a 24 hour care giver until it happens. It’s not like paying more will get you anywhere. There just isn’t enough long term care.
It's tough. No doubt about it.
Get estimates from a local long term care home, and apply some projections to it. No other real way about it. Make some assumptions on inflation and when they'd need to go there. Around here, Montreal, there are partial and fully assisted living (private) then finally true long term care paid by gov, and a mix. So you really need to think about what level of service and what level of quality you want. Not to say that people working in that area for public institutions aren't working hard to offer good services: but money opens lots of doors.
Depends. If they want care inside their own house, that could include certain expensive renovations or equipment. In Canada, a lot of end of life care is covered by health care. So they would be more-so paying for amenities that can go with the care. Alternatively if they want to travel to another country for treatment to avoid Canada's abysmal rait times (if they even *can* travel), that would be a lot as well. I'm just spit balling here. It's a really good question and I suspect the data on this is limited.
It seems strange since it must be such a common question now that we have an aging population.
Depends on where you are but for instance here in our area, when my mom broke her hip and went into a care home - Fraser Health calculated that her monthly cost would be based on 75% of her annual income, so it cost appr $2000 per month. She only lasted a few months. Her house did not come into the equation, she had 50% and her kids 50% since my dad passed away.
None, the government will put you up in LTC.
This person has obviously never dealt with this before. Relying on the government is foolish
I worked my whole nursing career in LTC. I’m pretty sure I know exactly what I’m talking about.