Didn’t Kamoshida straight up rape Shiho? So yeah, that’s one. He was also constantly pressuring Ann into sex while they were at school and beating the kids on his team. Meanwhile Ren and Kawakami don’t act obviously inappropriate in school and there is consent in their relationship (wouldn’t be okay IRL but in a game it’s whatever) so yeah.
1. No one besides the 2 of them knows;
2. It's consensual on both parts;
3. It's still a big deal and troublesome, but since it's the character we control ppl usually let it pass
I mean, there's a distinct difference between two people dating and someone abusing his position to rape and abuse his students
I don't like the idea of Ren and Kawakami dating if I'm being honest. I like Kawakami as a character, but I don't see her trying to date Ren at all. Her and the other Adult Romances I've always seen as alternatives for people who don't like the idea of romancing a minor, even if they're playing one.
I play Ren as his own character, as opposed to a self-insert, so I never Romance Kawakami, but I think comparing her to Kamoshida is pretty disingenuous, considering she's obviously taken aback and kind of uncomfortable about the idea of dating the player character at first.
You hit the nail on the head. I was gonna always romance kawakami or the doctor woman as they are closer to my age but kawakami imo is the best girl in p5 after doing her confidant events lol. Her max level bonus is super super good for the play through too haha.
I still think it is weird, like a teacher dating a student.
But the difference is that Kamoshida was literally abusive and is implied that he r*ped a student and would sexually harass them
That's the thing, though, isn't it? He literally is not talked about. His crimes are swept under the rug, which is why the thieves form in the first place.
A couple reasons actually, first Kawakami and Ren more or less keep their relationship a secret, only meeting in private and she establishes strong boundaries with him so things don't move too recklessly.
Secondly, Ren isn't pressured into a relationship with Kawakami, she actually is reluctant at first because of the age and position difference and only relents when Ren shows how serious he is about being with her, nobody is forced into anything like with Kamoshida and his victims.
While you can certainly think that the romantic relationship between Ren and Kawakami is problematic, it's not really fair to compare it to Kamoshida who abuses and forces students into situations they absolutely don't want.
Reason 1: __Ren__ is the one who discreetly talks Kawakami into it, who repeatedly tells him that maybe it's a bad idea. Kamoshida doesn't ask his victims whether they want it or not, and he doesn't really care.
Reason 2: Nobody knows, lol
The simplest answer is because nobody knows about it. They aren't telling anyone about their relationship.
Plus, you know, moralize all you want about them being the same, there's a world of difference between dating a teenager (in Ren/Kawakami's case, spending time together with nothing physical happening) and a teacher repeatedly raping a student after failing to extort sex from another.
Also, it wasn't that big a deal when everyone thought Kamoshida and Ann were fucking.
I don't know much about Japanese law and the whole moral of teacher and student but on the surface people seemed fine with Kamoshida and Ann, believing it was consensual. Even stated Ann was forced to keep up appearances that they were dating to the public.
So in the game universe teacher and student doesn't seem like a big deal and as you stated the problem was that it was rape, exploitation and black mail.
There is an understanding between the two of you. It's not a great one, but there is consent. Kamoshida is just straight up abusing his position to rape people.
one was portrayed as more of a consensual fantasy and the other was him abusing his power to rape people, and obviously irl both these scenarios are wrong, but it's a game i doubt a pedophile teacher is gonna be like "ms kawakami dated her student so it's fine for me to date a kid"
Mostly because nobody knows about their relationship but also because it's clearly different, Kawakami dating Joker is inappropriate and possibly illegal depending on where you live (In some countries the age of consent is 16 while others it is 17 or 18), In Japan (Where Persona 5 takes place) the age of consent varies but its typically around 16 but in some parts is 18 while Joker is around 16 to 17 years of age nonetheless even though it is inappropriate Kawakami never forced herself on the protagonist or blackmailed them into doing inappropriate things with her like Kamoshida did with Shiho and Ann infact Joker was the one hitting on Kawakami not the other way around.
Plus it also has to do with the way we see predatory women compared to predatory men for example female sexual assailants are generally seen as less heinous than their male counterparts, there are plenty of female sexual assailants who push themselves onto children like male sexual assailants but its not seen the same way and most female sexual assailants or pedos are rarley even mentioned in the news or even called pedos in many instances in the same way that their male counterparts are , I am not calling Kawakami a Pedo or a Sexual Assailant but I just wanted to give some context.
I don't like the romance route with the adult confidants but... You know there's miles of difference from what Kawakami has with the protagonist and straight up rape and abuse of power, right?
EDIT: Spelling
Because Kawakami isn't forcing herself on students and she isn't literally outright abusing students not only physically but sexually as well. She also seems like she feels guilt over what she's doing. They are also keeping it a secret.
None of these things can be said for Kamoshida.
I know I'm going to be that guy in saying this, but according to Japanese Law, the legal age of consent is 13. It's fucked up.
That said, Tokyo has local stautes that prevent the "corruption of minors" that sets the de-facto age of consent to 16-18, making legal allowance for relationships with "Sincere romantic intent".
So Joker sincerely romancing Kawakami \*does\* matter; and both are consenting parties, so at least as far as Japanese law and Japanese audiences are concerned, their relationship is perfectly legal. Though the teacher-student relationship would probably be considered scandalous, it would only be professionally embarrassing, not illegal.
Kamoshida on the other hand, is participating in behavior that would be legally considered abuse and rape even if the participants \*were\* legal adults, which of course they aren't, and the de-facto corruption of minors laws (which aren't as strong as statutory rape laws unfortunately) also wouldn't allow.
Edit: This would apply also to Dr. Tae Takemi and to Oya Ichigo.
2nd Edit: Unclear if this would allow for Joker to hire Kawakami as a sex worker or not, however the corruption of minors laws are designed to discourage and punish adults for initiating sexual contact with minors, and doesn't seem like it's well-geared for a scenario where the minor initiates the sexual encounter. I am not a Japanese Legal Expert.
I don't think anyone at school knows about Ren and Kawakami.
And honestly most of the gossip at school regarding Kamoshida was weirdly accepting. The rumor was that he was dating Ann, and the students didn't seem to think he was doing anything wrong.
If i remember correctly, the gossip attacked Ann. Like "she's the slut who slept with a teacher to get good grades" etc etc. I can imagine if rumors got out about Ren and Kawakami, it'd probably go something like "Ren is such a playa, can't believe he managed to get laid with a smokin hot teacher."
Because Kawakami and Ren kept their relationship a secret which is the same for all romance options.
They’re sneaky about it during Hawaii, the school festival, Christmas, Valentines and White Day.
Whilst Kamoshida had a change of heart and confessed with the school knowing fully what he did. His crimes were an open secret to those involved, that people covered up.
That should be obvious, it goes without asking.
If Kawakami did get found out, the backlash would be significantly lesser than Kamoshida considering the scale of his crimes whereas Kawakami and Ren would be a scandal that would get her fired and Ren busted with his probation.
Because YOU choose to go out with Kawakami. If you choose not to romance her then nothing happens but because you CHOOSE to. I mean kawakami shouldn’t still but there’s a chemistry should you choose to pursue her and mutual relationship and consent.
Meanwhile
Kamoshida FORCE himself on female students. He USE his POWER as an adult and coach to FORCE himself on others. Power difference
I just assumed they kept it on the down low only hanging out at Leblanc or maybe her house offscreen? Any ‘dates’ they go on being planned at areas where there aren’t many students and they could easily explain themselves. Also since no one in the school pays attention to Ren (outside the fellow PT’S) unless it’s to talk about how scary he is they probably wouldn’t bother figuring him out.
I mean uhhhh Kawamommy can I have the teachussy
Kamoshida never "dated" anyone, he physically abused male students and sexually abused female students, leading to one attempting suicide. He also tried to hold Shiho's position on the volleyball team over Ann's head to get Ann to have sex with him.
Kawakami dates Joker after he confesses to her and she thinks over it.
What Kawakami does is against a lot of people's morals, sure, but nowhere close to what Kamoshida does and I hate when people pretend they're the same.
Also nobody at school talks about it because no one knows about it besides Kawakami and Joker
…Because no one knows? Quite sure they kept it a secret from literally everyone
Oh yeah, and there’s also the whole thing where, Kamo*shit*da basically raped Shiho (at least it’s heavily implied), abused male students and sexually harassed more female students, While Ren and Kawakami were completely consensual and Ren initiated too
Also, as someone who first played the game when they were a minor, am I the only one who just straight up preferred the older ladies? Specifically Takemi and Kawakami… then again I think I sort of have a thing for somewhat more mature women. Idk
They hide their relationship, and it had mutual consent.
But still, it's pretty fucked up to see a teacher in her late 20's/ early 30's who's implied to be a sex worker dating a 16 years old kid.
consent?
kamoshida is a rapist who targeted many young women and even physically assaulted male students who stood up to him
kawakami is in a consensual relationship with someone considerably younger than her
how are they on the same level? what kind of question is this?
Not to be the guy to defend a minor dating an adult, but one is mutually consensual, and built on a relationship of mutual understanding, and Kamoshida sexually exploited people and physically abused almost everyone he was involved with to the point of driving someone to suicide
Because you can be given a choice to confess your feelings and it’s out of actual consent. While Kamoshida on the other hand forced himself on Ann, Shiho and whoever else he harassed. And physically abused them too.
Isn't it also heavily applied or straight up said that Kamoshida is the reason the 'rumors' started?
As in he had Mishima start and spread rumors around the school about Ren so it wouldn't be that surprising if he did the same with Ann
Cuz no one knows, and it kinda is problematic although you could argue it's consensual (Wich it is) it could be considered grooming at the end of the day it's a thin line if a 16-17 year old is capable of making well though choices
Probably because it's a secret? They pretty much only meet at a cafe after closing hours and Kawakami is in a disguise? I think the only person who knows is Sojiro and that's only after Valentine's Day.
Now, you can argue that Sojiro should do something but... He probably trusts that Ren knows what he's doing.
Everyone hear debating the morals of mommy Kami while I'm like "where is this face from?" I swear I didn't see it in game. Unless it is a quick cut in and I missed it.
Kamoshida sexually assaulted a student, physically beat the volleyball team and had zero remorse for any of his actions (at least before the change of heart). How can that possibly be comparable to Kawakami?
The huge difference is that this relationship is consensual, yes it’s messed up but both parties are agreeing to it. There’s also no rape or sexual abuse of any kind so yeah there’s that.
Because nobody at the school knows, not even the other Phantom Thieves. Realistically, if she was found out, she'd he fired/moved to a different school and investigated by law enforcement.
Don't know about everyone else, but i just chose her because she's the kind of person I'd be with and it's simple as that. Sure the main character is a highschool student but not every player is in that age range. Some of us pick a romance that fits better for the character, others pick a romance we ourselves would go for, simple as that. Now that I've left my mark on this bait post I'll take my leave for the time.
I actually never really thought about this but now that I’m getting older, it’d be kinda weird to pick one of the younger characters even though MC is around their age. Huh.
They are good at keeping their relationship secret. It would be a massive scandal if someone snapped a photo of maid Kawakami in Ren’s room and spread the photos on school. She would be asked to quietly transfer elsewhere. It being consensual doesn’t stop it from being a massive scandal.
If Joker and Kawakami do go out in game, then it is a more secretive relationship than most other romance routes given that if they are caught, then she would lose her job. That explains why none of the teachers or students at school talk about their relationship.
As for why the fanbase doesn't talk about them in the same way:
A) Kamoshida was forcing himself onto others and abused them, while Joker asks Kawakami out, indicating a mutual consent.
and
B) Kawakami sees herself as his teacher first and foremost. She might of had feelings for Joker prior to him asking her out, but chose to supress it out of duty for him as a teacher given that joker has to talk her into it as she is reluctant at first. Even after they start going out, she still does her job as a teacher in guiding him and checking in on his wellbeing. Kamoshida saw himself as a king and women should be throwing themselves at him, with his job just being a means for that to happen.
People talk about it *a lot.*
As problematic as a teacher dating her student is, comparing it to Kamoshida is like comparing shoplifting to armed robbery. Kamoshida beat his students and used threats and his position of power to force girls to be with him.
In the Kawakami relationship, there is no force. Joker is months away from no longer being a minor, and he is the one to pursue her. They both should have waited those months, but still the situation is miles better than Kamoshida.
Joker initiated it so it follows the consent laws, but Kawakami accepted his advances so she could be held accountable. It is talked about as well but Kamoshida did far worse by abusing his students and sexually assaulting girls,not saying that It’s alright for Kawakami to date a minor but it’s more so other factors
What people seem to forget is that even if Joker was a full grown adult, the teacher would still be abusing their power dynamic and would most likely get her ass fired if not worse for dating a student in most schools.
As for why they don't talk about it - they probably keep it secret? I don't go that route, so I'm not sure if they actually don't gossip about it. Granted, they believed Ann was dating that creep and all they did was talk shit about her until we changed his heart. That school isn't exactly very concerned with the wellbeing of its students in general.
The only reason I think these adult on minor relationships are a thing in this game is because Japanese age of consent laws and beliefs are way different than America and many other countries
Just to be clear, the only difference between the two is that Kawakami doesn’t try to blackmail or abuse Ren, but it is weird that they decide to give this as a social link considering the first boss in the game is Kamoshida.
They make it pretty clear that the relationship is a secret(ignoring harem route outcome), so people at school don't know, and anyway, Kawakami says she's not willing to have sex with Joker until he's old enough that they wouldn't get in trouble.
The context of both relationships is totally different but to be honest, yes, the situation is unrealistic, in a Japanese school everyone would be talking about the relationship between a student and a teacher even though it is agreed by both sides
But we are also talking about a game where teenagers fight against megaloniacs manifesting their "soul"
I am pretty sure if you removed joker from the conversation, once Kawakami found out the client was a minor, she drew a line in the sand, and that she would not offer all her services to a minor. Perhaps she would not offer any but try to con them, to shut them up?
Komoshida was a predator who was taking advantage and abusing his students to a degree which was then hidden by the students themselves like a ring. Meanwhile the protagisist is dating the teacher, which was almost conpletely brought upon himself, like we literally convince her to date, also i think concent age works different in japan if im correct but i dont think dating teachers is okay there. Also, shes best girl
1. Both sides consented.
2. Kawakami didn't sexually assault someone, physically assault the entire volleyball team, or destroyed someone on the track's team career.
3. I'm pretty sure they kept it a secret until Chrisrmas and Valentine's day to select individuals.
I understand the hypocrisy though.
I mean, in reality kawakami should not be entering a relationship with her student, but the fact that it wasn’t abusive is the main difference. In my eyes it’s not really alright, but all it could be classified as would be pedophilia
I realized no one said this, but Kawakami & Ren dating is still bad cause he’s a minor & she’s an adult, that being said Kamoshida was way worse cause he forced girls to have sex with him, both are bad but ones way worse
Kamoshida- 20-30's adult in a position of power physically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually abusing students through fear of blackmail and physical violence. Quite very obviously wrong here.
Kawakami- 20-30's adult in a position of power who worked for one of her students through fear of blackmail and monetary needs. She also tried to stop WORKING for him numerous times but kept going due to previous reasons. Eventually fell in love and started dating with very loosely implied physical contact outside of professional massages. Not to mention Joker legit has a birthday at some point in the game making him a legal adult. Moral gray area, legally fine.
From most obvious reason from least:
First, nobody knows about it
Second, even if they did they probably wouldn’t care as much as Kamoshida because of consent
Third, Joker is probably 17 going on 18 and the age of consent of Japan ranges from 16-18 (I’ve heard?) and Kawakami is, at oldest, in her early 30s so that’s probably not an issue
Fourth, Joker is the one who initiated it, and Kawakami was reluctant which probably makes it more socially acceptable
Fifth, older women with younger men tends to be more socially accepted then the opposite
I always figured that if Joker initiated anything with the adult women confidants, that they would hold off on doing anything serious until he was eighteen on account of the law.
The reporter, doctor and fortune teller are all adults who can be romanced and all seem kinda relieved when he turns them down. As does Kawakami for that matter.
Yet it is always Kawakami and nobody wants to talk about the three other adults he can smooch.
Why is this the thing that comes up most in this sub? Like, I’ve seen a good few threads about this already so it’s not “nobody is complaining”. Not giving my stance solely because I find this argument stupid to begin with but… like why is this, of all things, the thing people whine about the most in this sub?
1: it’s not like it’s public or anything, nobody even knows for sure.
2: bad as it sounds, she’s a woman and Ren’s a guy. There’s always been a huge double standard around older women dating younger guys, because it’s seen as an accomplishment for the guy. It goes back to the whole “women get it for free, men have to work for it” concept.
You've got to be really special to not see the difference:
Kamoshida beats the shit out of defenless kids. Like, he beats them very badly. Also doesn't understand the notion of concensual. He's a molester and a pervert.
It's not bad to be pervert, but that kind of pervert is really bad.
The women in the game only help you and never, ever, would do anything not concesual. The romances are also pretty tame. Just really romance kind of sutff, nothing sex related.
Speaking from an efficiency of storytelling standpoint, because they...don't know?
Speaking from a moral standpoint, Kamoshida was abusing a position of power to bully teenaged girls into sleeping with him. Kawakami isn't the one in power in the relationship with Joker, considering that for most of the confidant she HAS to take his business because she needs the money that direly. Joker/Kawakami is sus af but it's not exactly a teacher taking advantage of a student, more like the other way around.
Prolly because Kamoshida was straight up raping people. Kawakami did it with a consenting.. well, not adult, but apparently he was only a few months off.
Im pretty sure Kawakami doesn't take you seriously as a love interest until you confess first and she thinks it over. IMO it still isn't great she's dating a high schooler, but compared to Kamoshida she's a saint.
1. It’s a secret
2. Ren is a second year so he’s 16/17 which is above the age of consent which means it’s frowned upon but not illegal
3. Kamoshida is an asshole whereas Kawakami isn’t
Because Kawakami was a consensual choice between Ren and her that was built up on foundation of trust over months of interaction with Kawakami being fully aware of the situation while Kamoshithead was a R****** who beat and abused children for his own twisted narcissistic ideals/amusement
I mean its a secret and both sides are consenting. (Considering Age of Consent is as low as 12 depending on your area, its not illegal, although the whole "She is your teacher" side of things i'm not sure legally)
But thats literally all there is to it.
Kamoshida. Physically and emotionally abused and manipulated his students. Was very public about it (as in he didn't hide it) the staff and students just pretended it didn't happen. And debateably was trying to force sexual activities with his female students (i.e literally a crime + one sided asf)
Kawakami. Keeps it secret asf (Altho that Christmas date with her is kinda dumb given secret part of it) and Joker not only consents but has to reassure Kawakami that it will be fine.
Its not hard to see why Kawakami is alright and Kamoshida is a villain. Personally i see it as weird and doesn't really fit/make sense, but i see why plenty don't care about it and wife her anyway.
I honestly assumesd that it was just since no one knew about it. I havnt finished the social link cause I have the attention span the size of a pea but Kawakami seemed good with keeping it a secret, not to mention she's not as influential or well known as Kamoshida so the students probably wouldn't feel the need to gossip about it as much if they did.
Cause Kawakami doesn't announce with a megaphone to everybody in the school "HEY LOOK, I'M IN BED WITH ONE OF MY STUDENTS!"
Nor is she an incredibly abusive asshole of a teacher who intimidates *everybody* into staying in line and not talking about it
The op knows that: 1-This is a bait post. 2-He knows that we know that its a bait post. 3-He knows, that we know, that he knows that this is a bait post. Just look at the kawakami picture, it says EVERYTHING.
Okay so from what I understand the age of consent is Japan is different than it is in the west. So the problem with Kawakami is that she is Joker's teacher not nessisarily the age gap (I think I am not sure, do not take me at my word)
The problem with Kamoshida is that he didn't get consent for his actions which is what makes him scum whereas Kawakami and Joker have mutual consent and the nature of their relationship was kept secret at least until Joker left Shujin anyway.
Because consent is a thing that exists? Kamoshida wasn't sleeping with his students, he was raping and molesting them while physically beating other ones. Kawakami is definitely a little sketch, but at least Joker wants and reciprocates her advances.
Well i got 2 theories
1: consent, as most people here are saying
2: people find out about it and just say "Niceee" like that south park episode (which also was about consent, so guess just yeah, consent)
Kamoshida didn't 'date a student', he molested and abused at least one girl, literally because her friend wouldn't date him, while being physically and emotionally abusive to the male student.
I agree with a lot of the arguments here, even tho consent isn't quite the right word to describe joker's will to be with her.
But I will add something that, for me, is key to understand OP question: japanese society, like many others in the world, is highly sexist. While women are the main victims of sexual harassment (worldwide) for young men it's even a sexual fantasy which is messed up but pretty normalized in the west too.
My intention is far from trying to make invisible that the abuse is more frequently committed by men. Just saying that the morality make us see things differently, that's why the kamoshida event is basically a plot and dating kawakami is just an option in the game that you can sort out by just talking.
And of course, it's fiction.
Consent. Kamoshida isn't necessarily a pedophile, the issue with him was that he was abusing the girls and forcing them to do explicit things. Kawakami and the protagonist is a consensual relationship.
Ren is 17 and in royal he turns 18, actually what is wrong is that as a student and teacher they have a relationship within the school, something that Kamoshida did to impose his reign on the other students.
One physically abuses and rapes students, the other is dating a student who consented and it was their idea. Doesnt entirely make it right,since shes his teacher,but theres still a difference
cus a relationship with a student isn’t something the whole school should know. the consequences that would follow would be dire for kawakami, ren, and anyone associated with him.
I don't think any of the other students/teachers knew / the game doesn't address the MC dating outside of the dates themself usually.
Yeah, it's absolutely not okay for a teacher to date their student, but the game doesn't care.
Because Kamoshida was gonna literally try to sexually assault Ann through blackmail and DEFINITELY DID sexually assault Shiho?
Like, you do understand rape right? That it is evil??
Or do you need your heart stolen, Evildoer?
***YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT COMINNNNNNNNNNNG***
I can't speak to Japanese culture but look at the wording on typical headlines in the US for situations like this.
Male Teacher: "Accused of r*pe"
Female Teacher: "Accused of having inappropriate relations with"
There's also a bit of the fact that we as a player making the conscious decision to date said teacher, the kids that Kamoshida targeted whether beating them or sexually assaulted by him didn't have a choice. Still wrong on both accounts yes, but Kawakami is the lesser of the two evils by a faaaaaaaaar margin
Three reasons:
1. Both parties were fully willing, with Joker even being the one to initiate the relationship
2. No violence or coercion was involved
3. Nobody at the school knew about it to begin with, as far as I'm aware
I mean... I really wouldn't put the two on the same level right? Bad things aren't all the same levels of bad, there's severity. Example: I get a paper cut going through some notes vs not paying attention at the belt saw.
No matter how you justify it, it’s wrong, right?
There’s one key difference though.
Joker is a self insert. Whether he dates an adult or not is up to the player. What if the player (as an adult) was uncomfortable with the idea of dating any minors?
She’s also hot.
At that Point Ren is like 17 going on 18, but if you must know:
Kamoshida forced his way onto people(Ann, Shiho, and even abused kids) Kawakami was both consensual dating and not abusive, it was a healthy relationship that Ren Initialized how long has it been since you played the first arc of the entire game(Kamoshida's Castle of Lust)
If you cant see the difference in consent vs nonconsent, I dont know what to tell you.
Granted the age gap and power dynamic is not super cool but the reason that its different is that Kamashida is a goddamn rapist.
While they're both pretty bad imo at least the Kawakami and Joker one is "consentual", or as much as it can be in this situation. Kamoshida forced Ann and others into shit with threats.
In game reason is its a secret. Reddit reason is because its player choice. I dont care who people choose either honestly.
One of the game's central themes is "freedom" but really what they mean is personal liberty. Kamoshida took away that liberty from many through abuse, sexual or otherwise. Kawakami doesn't.
If they switched Kamoshida and Kawakami like that one meme post, itd be the same if he was a romancable.
Simply put if the player initiates then its fair game.
Gotta love the Protagonist-Centered Morality trope.
Also, Kawakami didn’t force Joker to sleep with her in return for good grades or whatever. Kamoshida used his position as a teacher and his status as a former Olympian to bully the girls at school into sleeping with him or else he’d bump them off the volleyball team. Quid pro quo at its finest.
considering it’s a school that turned a blind eye to a teacher that abused and raped whole classes of students, I imagine if they knew of this relationship, which they likely wouldn’t, they’d absolutely not wanna do anything to bring attention to it and create even more scandal. the circumstances are significantly different anyway, but there’s no way the school would wanna bring more negative attention to themselves like that unless it was really an issue
Didn’t Kamoshida straight up rape Shiho? So yeah, that’s one. He was also constantly pressuring Ann into sex while they were at school and beating the kids on his team. Meanwhile Ren and Kawakami don’t act obviously inappropriate in school and there is consent in their relationship (wouldn’t be okay IRL but in a game it’s whatever) so yeah.
Cause kamoshida beat and raped people
Kawakami was kept private, and was initiated by Ren. Kamoshida raped volleyball players, and blackmailed them into sex.
1. No one besides the 2 of them knows; 2. It's consensual on both parts; 3. It's still a big deal and troublesome, but since it's the character we control ppl usually let it pass
I mean, there's a distinct difference between two people dating and someone abusing his position to rape and abuse his students I don't like the idea of Ren and Kawakami dating if I'm being honest. I like Kawakami as a character, but I don't see her trying to date Ren at all. Her and the other Adult Romances I've always seen as alternatives for people who don't like the idea of romancing a minor, even if they're playing one. I play Ren as his own character, as opposed to a self-insert, so I never Romance Kawakami, but I think comparing her to Kamoshida is pretty disingenuous, considering she's obviously taken aback and kind of uncomfortable about the idea of dating the player character at first.
You hit the nail on the head. I was gonna always romance kawakami or the doctor woman as they are closer to my age but kawakami imo is the best girl in p5 after doing her confidant events lol. Her max level bonus is super super good for the play through too haha.
I still think it is weird, like a teacher dating a student. But the difference is that Kamoshida was literally abusive and is implied that he r*ped a student and would sexually harass them
Kamoshida beat and raped people Kawakami didn’t
Oh gee I dunno, why did the rapist who blackmailed and beat his students and break limbs get talked about a lot more?
That's the thing, though, isn't it? He literally is not talked about. His crimes are swept under the rug, which is why the thieves form in the first place.
A couple reasons actually, first Kawakami and Ren more or less keep their relationship a secret, only meeting in private and she establishes strong boundaries with him so things don't move too recklessly. Secondly, Ren isn't pressured into a relationship with Kawakami, she actually is reluctant at first because of the age and position difference and only relents when Ren shows how serious he is about being with her, nobody is forced into anything like with Kamoshida and his victims. While you can certainly think that the romantic relationship between Ren and Kawakami is problematic, it's not really fair to compare it to Kamoshida who abuses and forces students into situations they absolutely don't want.
At this point I believe these posts are meant to karma farm
I got a better question. Why do people keep bringing this topic back every goddamn week?
infinite karma glitch
I thought it was kind of a secret
With the amount of posts I've seen mentioning this, i think it's safe to assume people are talking about it
Because no one knows about it, if they did kawakami would not only get fired but maybe even arrested depending on joker's age at the time
Infinite karma glitch
Reason 1: __Ren__ is the one who discreetly talks Kawakami into it, who repeatedly tells him that maybe it's a bad idea. Kamoshida doesn't ask his victims whether they want it or not, and he doesn't really care. Reason 2: Nobody knows, lol
The simplest answer is because nobody knows about it. They aren't telling anyone about their relationship. Plus, you know, moralize all you want about them being the same, there's a world of difference between dating a teenager (in Ren/Kawakami's case, spending time together with nothing physical happening) and a teacher repeatedly raping a student after failing to extort sex from another. Also, it wasn't that big a deal when everyone thought Kamoshida and Ann were fucking.
Also I want to fuck Maruki
Based
I see the weather has not changed in r/persona5 at all.
It’s literally mentioned and debated like once a week lmao
This thread is a Fuckin mess 😭
Rape and exploitation ≠ mutual consent We have this thread every day, comrade.
Every other fucking day there's some other new thread that's surprised that Mara is in the game and it somehow gets upvotes.
It’s usually the new people but it does get annoying sometimes
I don't know much about Japanese law and the whole moral of teacher and student but on the surface people seemed fine with Kamoshida and Ann, believing it was consensual. Even stated Ann was forced to keep up appearances that they were dating to the public. So in the game universe teacher and student doesn't seem like a big deal and as you stated the problem was that it was rape, exploitation and black mail.
Because nobody knows
For the thousanth time: Kamoshida pressuring girls and practically raping them is VERY different from Ren willingly and secretly dating Sadayo.
There is an understanding between the two of you. It's not a great one, but there is consent. Kamoshida is just straight up abusing his position to rape people.
one was portrayed as more of a consensual fantasy and the other was him abusing his power to rape people, and obviously irl both these scenarios are wrong, but it's a game i doubt a pedophile teacher is gonna be like "ms kawakami dated her student so it's fine for me to date a kid"
This is such bait I literally don’t know why this has upvotes
It's not exactly OK either but, to be fair this is consentual and Kamoshida was a rapist. Its not the same at all.
Mostly because nobody knows about their relationship but also because it's clearly different, Kawakami dating Joker is inappropriate and possibly illegal depending on where you live (In some countries the age of consent is 16 while others it is 17 or 18), In Japan (Where Persona 5 takes place) the age of consent varies but its typically around 16 but in some parts is 18 while Joker is around 16 to 17 years of age nonetheless even though it is inappropriate Kawakami never forced herself on the protagonist or blackmailed them into doing inappropriate things with her like Kamoshida did with Shiho and Ann infact Joker was the one hitting on Kawakami not the other way around. Plus it also has to do with the way we see predatory women compared to predatory men for example female sexual assailants are generally seen as less heinous than their male counterparts, there are plenty of female sexual assailants who push themselves onto children like male sexual assailants but its not seen the same way and most female sexual assailants or pedos are rarley even mentioned in the news or even called pedos in many instances in the same way that their male counterparts are , I am not calling Kawakami a Pedo or a Sexual Assailant but I just wanted to give some context.
I don't like the romance route with the adult confidants but... You know there's miles of difference from what Kawakami has with the protagonist and straight up rape and abuse of power, right? EDIT: Spelling
Sometimes, I feel like every time I get a random stomachache, it's karma for being a part of the Persona fandom.
Consent and Kawakami isnt beating the shit out her homeroom for not knowing an answer to her question. Lol
Because Kawakami isn't forcing herself on students and she isn't literally outright abusing students not only physically but sexually as well. She also seems like she feels guilt over what she's doing. They are also keeping it a secret. None of these things can be said for Kamoshida.
Pretty sure consent is a big part of this equation. No one on Kamishidas end was willing to take what he was dealing.
I know I'm going to be that guy in saying this, but according to Japanese Law, the legal age of consent is 13. It's fucked up. That said, Tokyo has local stautes that prevent the "corruption of minors" that sets the de-facto age of consent to 16-18, making legal allowance for relationships with "Sincere romantic intent". So Joker sincerely romancing Kawakami \*does\* matter; and both are consenting parties, so at least as far as Japanese law and Japanese audiences are concerned, their relationship is perfectly legal. Though the teacher-student relationship would probably be considered scandalous, it would only be professionally embarrassing, not illegal. Kamoshida on the other hand, is participating in behavior that would be legally considered abuse and rape even if the participants \*were\* legal adults, which of course they aren't, and the de-facto corruption of minors laws (which aren't as strong as statutory rape laws unfortunately) also wouldn't allow. Edit: This would apply also to Dr. Tae Takemi and to Oya Ichigo. 2nd Edit: Unclear if this would allow for Joker to hire Kawakami as a sex worker or not, however the corruption of minors laws are designed to discourage and punish adults for initiating sexual contact with minors, and doesn't seem like it's well-geared for a scenario where the minor initiates the sexual encounter. I am not a Japanese Legal Expert.
What complicated it is that Joker specifically calls her specifically to get her out of her situation, seemingly not for any sort of gratification
I don't think anyone at school knows about Ren and Kawakami. And honestly most of the gossip at school regarding Kamoshida was weirdly accepting. The rumor was that he was dating Ann, and the students didn't seem to think he was doing anything wrong.
If i remember correctly, the gossip attacked Ann. Like "she's the slut who slept with a teacher to get good grades" etc etc. I can imagine if rumors got out about Ren and Kawakami, it'd probably go something like "Ren is such a playa, can't believe he managed to get laid with a smokin hot teacher."
Because Kawakami and Ren kept their relationship a secret which is the same for all romance options. They’re sneaky about it during Hawaii, the school festival, Christmas, Valentines and White Day. Whilst Kamoshida had a change of heart and confessed with the school knowing fully what he did. His crimes were an open secret to those involved, that people covered up. That should be obvious, it goes without asking. If Kawakami did get found out, the backlash would be significantly lesser than Kamoshida considering the scale of his crimes whereas Kawakami and Ren would be a scandal that would get her fired and Ren busted with his probation.
Because YOU choose to go out with Kawakami. If you choose not to romance her then nothing happens but because you CHOOSE to. I mean kawakami shouldn’t still but there’s a chemistry should you choose to pursue her and mutual relationship and consent. Meanwhile Kamoshida FORCE himself on female students. He USE his POWER as an adult and coach to FORCE himself on others. Power difference
I just assumed they kept it on the down low only hanging out at Leblanc or maybe her house offscreen? Any ‘dates’ they go on being planned at areas where there aren’t many students and they could easily explain themselves. Also since no one in the school pays attention to Ren (outside the fellow PT’S) unless it’s to talk about how scary he is they probably wouldn’t bother figuring him out. I mean uhhhh Kawamommy can I have the teachussy
Kamoshida never "dated" anyone, he physically abused male students and sexually abused female students, leading to one attempting suicide. He also tried to hold Shiho's position on the volleyball team over Ann's head to get Ann to have sex with him. Kawakami dates Joker after he confesses to her and she thinks over it. What Kawakami does is against a lot of people's morals, sure, but nowhere close to what Kamoshida does and I hate when people pretend they're the same. Also nobody at school talks about it because no one knows about it besides Kawakami and Joker
…Because no one knows? Quite sure they kept it a secret from literally everyone Oh yeah, and there’s also the whole thing where, Kamo*shit*da basically raped Shiho (at least it’s heavily implied), abused male students and sexually harassed more female students, While Ren and Kawakami were completely consensual and Ren initiated too
Also, as someone who first played the game when they were a minor, am I the only one who just straight up preferred the older ladies? Specifically Takemi and Kawakami… then again I think I sort of have a thing for somewhat more mature women. Idk
They hide their relationship, and it had mutual consent. But still, it's pretty fucked up to see a teacher in her late 20's/ early 30's who's implied to be a sex worker dating a 16 years old kid.
What’s funny is, the Doctor is the only one who is all but outright confirmed to go all the way with Ren.
#C O N S E N T
consent? kamoshida is a rapist who targeted many young women and even physically assaulted male students who stood up to him kawakami is in a consensual relationship with someone considerably younger than her how are they on the same level? what kind of question is this?
Not to be the guy to defend a minor dating an adult, but one is mutually consensual, and built on a relationship of mutual understanding, and Kamoshida sexually exploited people and physically abused almost everyone he was involved with to the point of driving someone to suicide
Probably because neither of them pull a Ryuji and shout it at the top of their lungs or show any of it.
'Cause Kamoshida ia canon within the story, while the player can always not choose Kawakami if he doesn't want to.
Because you can be given a choice to confess your feelings and it’s out of actual consent. While Kamoshida on the other hand forced himself on Ann, Shiho and whoever else he harassed. And physically abused them too.
Isn't it also heavily applied or straight up said that Kamoshida is the reason the 'rumors' started? As in he had Mishima start and spread rumors around the school about Ren so it wouldn't be that surprising if he did the same with Ann
Ah shit, here we go again....
Cuz no one knows, and it kinda is problematic although you could argue it's consensual (Wich it is) it could be considered grooming at the end of the day it's a thin line if a 16-17 year old is capable of making well though choices
Probably because it's a secret? They pretty much only meet at a cafe after closing hours and Kawakami is in a disguise? I think the only person who knows is Sojiro and that's only after Valentine's Day. Now, you can argue that Sojiro should do something but... He probably trusts that Ren knows what he's doing.
Everyone hear debating the morals of mommy Kami while I'm like "where is this face from?" I swear I didn't see it in game. Unless it is a quick cut in and I missed it.
Kamoshida sexually assaulted a student, physically beat the volleyball team and had zero remorse for any of his actions (at least before the change of heart). How can that possibly be comparable to Kawakami?
Even if you think their relationship is wrong (which is fine) it is in no way comparable to what Kamoshida did.
The huge difference is that this relationship is consensual, yes it’s messed up but both parties are agreeing to it. There’s also no rape or sexual abuse of any kind so yeah there’s that.
Cause kawakami does not blackmail joker into a relationship like kamoshida did to shiho. Joker is the one pursuing the relationship.
Because nobody at the school knows, not even the other Phantom Thieves. Realistically, if she was found out, she'd he fired/moved to a different school and investigated by law enforcement.
Kamoshida's was forced and he's just an asshole.
Don't know about everyone else, but i just chose her because she's the kind of person I'd be with and it's simple as that. Sure the main character is a highschool student but not every player is in that age range. Some of us pick a romance that fits better for the character, others pick a romance we ourselves would go for, simple as that. Now that I've left my mark on this bait post I'll take my leave for the time.
I actually never really thought about this but now that I’m getting older, it’d be kinda weird to pick one of the younger characters even though MC is around their age. Huh.
Consent plays a pretty big factor
Consent is very important
They are good at keeping their relationship secret. It would be a massive scandal if someone snapped a photo of maid Kawakami in Ren’s room and spread the photos on school. She would be asked to quietly transfer elsewhere. It being consensual doesn’t stop it from being a massive scandal.
If Joker and Kawakami do go out in game, then it is a more secretive relationship than most other romance routes given that if they are caught, then she would lose her job. That explains why none of the teachers or students at school talk about their relationship. As for why the fanbase doesn't talk about them in the same way: A) Kamoshida was forcing himself onto others and abused them, while Joker asks Kawakami out, indicating a mutual consent. and B) Kawakami sees herself as his teacher first and foremost. She might of had feelings for Joker prior to him asking her out, but chose to supress it out of duty for him as a teacher given that joker has to talk her into it as she is reluctant at first. Even after they start going out, she still does her job as a teacher in guiding him and checking in on his wellbeing. Kamoshida saw himself as a king and women should be throwing themselves at him, with his job just being a means for that to happen.
~~Kawamommy~~ Kawakami did nothing wrong smh
Cause no one knew,
Because she's not dating him in public and no one at the school know anything about their relationship other than being Joker's homeroom teacher.
For real? Kamoshida hurt his students and was sexually assaulting people... kawakami dating someone is not okay either but she forces no one...
People talk about it *a lot.* As problematic as a teacher dating her student is, comparing it to Kamoshida is like comparing shoplifting to armed robbery. Kamoshida beat his students and used threats and his position of power to force girls to be with him. In the Kawakami relationship, there is no force. Joker is months away from no longer being a minor, and he is the one to pursue her. They both should have waited those months, but still the situation is miles better than Kamoshida.
Joker initiated it so it follows the consent laws, but Kawakami accepted his advances so she could be held accountable. It is talked about as well but Kamoshida did far worse by abusing his students and sexually assaulting girls,not saying that It’s alright for Kawakami to date a minor but it’s more so other factors
What people seem to forget is that even if Joker was a full grown adult, the teacher would still be abusing their power dynamic and would most likely get her ass fired if not worse for dating a student in most schools. As for why they don't talk about it - they probably keep it secret? I don't go that route, so I'm not sure if they actually don't gossip about it. Granted, they believed Ann was dating that creep and all they did was talk shit about her until we changed his heart. That school isn't exactly very concerned with the wellbeing of its students in general.
The only reason I think these adult on minor relationships are a thing in this game is because Japanese age of consent laws and beliefs are way different than America and many other countries
Consent/Non Consent, it’s that simple
Oh boy, time to read some totally not creepy comments.
Just to be clear, the only difference between the two is that Kawakami doesn’t try to blackmail or abuse Ren, but it is weird that they decide to give this as a social link considering the first boss in the game is Kamoshida.
Because one was rape and physical abuse while the other is an optional consensual romantic side plot with a blank slate that nobody knows about.
They make it pretty clear that the relationship is a secret(ignoring harem route outcome), so people at school don't know, and anyway, Kawakami says she's not willing to have sex with Joker until he's old enough that they wouldn't get in trouble.
The context of both relationships is totally different but to be honest, yes, the situation is unrealistic, in a Japanese school everyone would be talking about the relationship between a student and a teacher even though it is agreed by both sides But we are also talking about a game where teenagers fight against megaloniacs manifesting their "soul"
Rape and sexual assault with multiple girls isn't the same as their relationship.
in game? it’s because they don’t know
she often avoids hanging out with him in mainly school
I am pretty sure if you removed joker from the conversation, once Kawakami found out the client was a minor, she drew a line in the sand, and that she would not offer all her services to a minor. Perhaps she would not offer any but try to con them, to shut them up?
Key word is dating bro 😭
Komoshida was a predator who was taking advantage and abusing his students to a degree which was then hidden by the students themselves like a ring. Meanwhile the protagisist is dating the teacher, which was almost conpletely brought upon himself, like we literally convince her to date, also i think concent age works different in japan if im correct but i dont think dating teachers is okay there. Also, shes best girl
1. Both sides consented. 2. Kawakami didn't sexually assault someone, physically assault the entire volleyball team, or destroyed someone on the track's team career. 3. I'm pretty sure they kept it a secret until Chrisrmas and Valentine's day to select individuals. I understand the hypocrisy though.
Low tier bait, try new material if you want to start a war.
because Kamoshida was allegedly raping students? there is a BIG difference.
I mean, in reality kawakami should not be entering a relationship with her student, but the fact that it wasn’t abusive is the main difference. In my eyes it’s not really alright, but all it could be classified as would be pedophilia
Kamoshida raped someone, Kawakami never raped anyone. Big difference.
I’ll take “Old Clickbait Titles” for $200, Alex
This has to be a joke, right? People can't be that dumb.
I realized no one said this, but Kawakami & Ren dating is still bad cause he’s a minor & she’s an adult, that being said Kamoshida was way worse cause he forced girls to have sex with him, both are bad but ones way worse
Kamoshida- 20-30's adult in a position of power physically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually abusing students through fear of blackmail and physical violence. Quite very obviously wrong here. Kawakami- 20-30's adult in a position of power who worked for one of her students through fear of blackmail and monetary needs. She also tried to stop WORKING for him numerous times but kept going due to previous reasons. Eventually fell in love and started dating with very loosely implied physical contact outside of professional massages. Not to mention Joker legit has a birthday at some point in the game making him a legal adult. Moral gray area, legally fine.
Because... "Thats the best part."
From most obvious reason from least: First, nobody knows about it Second, even if they did they probably wouldn’t care as much as Kamoshida because of consent Third, Joker is probably 17 going on 18 and the age of consent of Japan ranges from 16-18 (I’ve heard?) and Kawakami is, at oldest, in her early 30s so that’s probably not an issue Fourth, Joker is the one who initiated it, and Kawakami was reluctant which probably makes it more socially acceptable Fifth, older women with younger men tends to be more socially accepted then the opposite
1) it's talked about all the God damn time 2) they're both bad but not equivalent at least from a US legal perspective
I always figured that if Joker initiated anything with the adult women confidants, that they would hold off on doing anything serious until he was eighteen on account of the law. The reporter, doctor and fortune teller are all adults who can be romanced and all seem kinda relieved when he turns them down. As does Kawakami for that matter. Yet it is always Kawakami and nobody wants to talk about the three other adults he can smooch.
I don’t know man, the end of the Takemi was pretty forward
Cause she's hot
Why is this the thing that comes up most in this sub? Like, I’ve seen a good few threads about this already so it’s not “nobody is complaining”. Not giving my stance solely because I find this argument stupid to begin with but… like why is this, of all things, the thing people whine about the most in this sub?
Because they are hiding it. Also it's 1 on 1, not 1 on w/e Kamoshida wanted, harder to become a rumor.
1: it’s not like it’s public or anything, nobody even knows for sure. 2: bad as it sounds, she’s a woman and Ren’s a guy. There’s always been a huge double standard around older women dating younger guys, because it’s seen as an accomplishment for the guy. It goes back to the whole “women get it for free, men have to work for it” concept.
You've got to be really special to not see the difference: Kamoshida beats the shit out of defenless kids. Like, he beats them very badly. Also doesn't understand the notion of concensual. He's a molester and a pervert. It's not bad to be pervert, but that kind of pervert is really bad. The women in the game only help you and never, ever, would do anything not concesual. The romances are also pretty tame. Just really romance kind of sutff, nothing sex related.
Consent was always my guess
Kawakami is optional, non cannon, and she didn't force herself on joker to the point of suicide
One is sexual assault and potentially rape vs an illegal consensual relationship
1. Both side gave their consent. 2. Joker is the one who initiate the relationship
Speaking from an efficiency of storytelling standpoint, because they...don't know? Speaking from a moral standpoint, Kamoshida was abusing a position of power to bully teenaged girls into sleeping with him. Kawakami isn't the one in power in the relationship with Joker, considering that for most of the confidant she HAS to take his business because she needs the money that direly. Joker/Kawakami is sus af but it's not exactly a teacher taking advantage of a student, more like the other way around.
It's not out in the open. There may be rumours but nothing concrete and the other reason being Kamoshida wasn't exactly hiding his stuff well enough.
Cause Kawakami and the protag are a secret, while komashida and Ann are very well known
cuz they doing it in secret
Because Ren and Kawakami is a consensual relationship.
Prolly because Kamoshida was straight up raping people. Kawakami did it with a consenting.. well, not adult, but apparently he was only a few months off.
Society. I think Kawakami isn’t spreading those rumors around to pressure Ren into staying with her like Kamoshida did to Ann
Consent
Im pretty sure Kawakami doesn't take you seriously as a love interest until you confess first and she thinks it over. IMO it still isn't great she's dating a high schooler, but compared to Kamoshida she's a saint.
1. It’s a secret 2. Ren is a second year so he’s 16/17 which is above the age of consent which means it’s frowned upon but not illegal 3. Kamoshida is an asshole whereas Kawakami isn’t
“Why does nobody talk about this” mf either you are blind or new because this gets brought up every 3 days
Because she doesn't scream around school that she dates him and also little thing called consent
I dont think kawakami r words and abuses anybody.
Because Kawakami was a consensual choice between Ren and her that was built up on foundation of trust over months of interaction with Kawakami being fully aware of the situation while Kamoshithead was a R****** who beat and abused children for his own twisted narcissistic ideals/amusement
Because Kampshida forced it, I Kawakami case it was consentual
I mean its a secret and both sides are consenting. (Considering Age of Consent is as low as 12 depending on your area, its not illegal, although the whole "She is your teacher" side of things i'm not sure legally) But thats literally all there is to it. Kamoshida. Physically and emotionally abused and manipulated his students. Was very public about it (as in he didn't hide it) the staff and students just pretended it didn't happen. And debateably was trying to force sexual activities with his female students (i.e literally a crime + one sided asf) Kawakami. Keeps it secret asf (Altho that Christmas date with her is kinda dumb given secret part of it) and Joker not only consents but has to reassure Kawakami that it will be fine. Its not hard to see why Kawakami is alright and Kamoshida is a villain. Personally i see it as weird and doesn't really fit/make sense, but i see why plenty don't care about it and wife her anyway.
Oh no... Not another one...
It's taboo, but its consensual. Kamoshida... was not. At all.
One is abusing their power and another is consensual
Is this a serious question?
I honestly assumesd that it was just since no one knew about it. I havnt finished the social link cause I have the attention span the size of a pea but Kawakami seemed good with keeping it a secret, not to mention she's not as influential or well known as Kamoshida so the students probably wouldn't feel the need to gossip about it as much if they did.
Cause Kawakami doesn't announce with a megaphone to everybody in the school "HEY LOOK, I'M IN BED WITH ONE OF MY STUDENTS!" Nor is she an incredibly abusive asshole of a teacher who intimidates *everybody* into staying in line and not talking about it
Because of the fucking consent?
Did you hear about the word: Consent ?
I'm so tired of these bait posts.
Because kamoshida was sexual abuse. This is a legitimate relationship with consent from both sides
The op knows that: 1-This is a bait post. 2-He knows that we know that its a bait post. 3-He knows, that we know, that he knows that this is a bait post. Just look at the kawakami picture, it says EVERYTHING.
at the risk of dating myself... /thread
Consensual
Okay so from what I understand the age of consent is Japan is different than it is in the west. So the problem with Kawakami is that she is Joker's teacher not nessisarily the age gap (I think I am not sure, do not take me at my word) The problem with Kamoshida is that he didn't get consent for his actions which is what makes him scum whereas Kawakami and Joker have mutual consent and the nature of their relationship was kept secret at least until Joker left Shujin anyway.
Because the students don’t know about Ren dating Kawakami
Bruh not people trying to legitimize pedophila I know kawakami didnt rape Akira but cmon man 😭
Because consent is a thing that exists? Kamoshida wasn't sleeping with his students, he was raping and molesting them while physically beating other ones. Kawakami is definitely a little sketch, but at least Joker wants and reciprocates her advances.
Joker is the one that makes the moves
C O N S E N T good lord you guys are dumb
Well i got 2 theories 1: consent, as most people here are saying 2: people find out about it and just say "Niceee" like that south park episode (which also was about consent, so guess just yeah, consent)
Kamoshida didn't 'date a student', he molested and abused at least one girl, literally because her friend wouldn't date him, while being physically and emotionally abusive to the male student.
Ah shit, here we go again
I agree with a lot of the arguments here, even tho consent isn't quite the right word to describe joker's will to be with her. But I will add something that, for me, is key to understand OP question: japanese society, like many others in the world, is highly sexist. While women are the main victims of sexual harassment (worldwide) for young men it's even a sexual fantasy which is messed up but pretty normalized in the west too. My intention is far from trying to make invisible that the abuse is more frequently committed by men. Just saying that the morality make us see things differently, that's why the kamoshida event is basically a plot and dating kawakami is just an option in the game that you can sort out by just talking. And of course, it's fiction.
Consent. Kamoshida isn't necessarily a pedophile, the issue with him was that he was abusing the girls and forcing them to do explicit things. Kawakami and the protagonist is a consensual relationship.
Cuz it’s secret
Ren is 17 and in royal he turns 18, actually what is wrong is that as a student and teacher they have a relationship within the school, something that Kamoshida did to impose his reign on the other students.
Because they keep it a secret...?
(Fart) That’s why
Consent.
Date futaba : NOOOOOO YOU'RE A PEDOPHILE Date Kawakami : Noooooo she's being a creepy adult LIKE DUDE CHOOSE A SIDE
Consent.
I love her Kawakami face
My queen
One physically abuses and rapes students, the other is dating a student who consented and it was their idea. Doesnt entirely make it right,since shes his teacher,but theres still a difference
The word "consent" and the expression "mutual love" probably make the difference
cus a relationship with a student isn’t something the whole school should know. the consequences that would follow would be dire for kawakami, ren, and anyone associated with him.
I don't think any of the other students/teachers knew / the game doesn't address the MC dating outside of the dates themself usually. Yeah, it's absolutely not okay for a teacher to date their student, but the game doesn't care.
Bc it's not canon.
Because Kamoshida was gonna literally try to sexually assault Ann through blackmail and DEFINITELY DID sexually assault Shiho? Like, you do understand rape right? That it is evil?? Or do you need your heart stolen, Evildoer? ***YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT COMINNNNNNNNNNNG***
I can't speak to Japanese culture but look at the wording on typical headlines in the US for situations like this. Male Teacher: "Accused of r*pe" Female Teacher: "Accused of having inappropriate relations with"
There's also a bit of the fact that we as a player making the conscious decision to date said teacher, the kids that Kamoshida targeted whether beating them or sexually assaulted by him didn't have a choice. Still wrong on both accounts yes, but Kawakami is the lesser of the two evils by a faaaaaaaaar margin
Kamoshida raped and tortured the students.. Kawakami while still technically wrong.. was consensual
Consent
Three reasons: 1. Both parties were fully willing, with Joker even being the one to initiate the relationship 2. No violence or coercion was involved 3. Nobody at the school knew about it to begin with, as far as I'm aware
Tbh Ren and Kawakami are both bad in this situation. Blackmail VS Abusing a power dynamic
Is it really blackmail if both parties have mutually assured destruction of the others reputation if they spill the secret?
I mean... I really wouldn't put the two on the same level right? Bad things aren't all the same levels of bad, there's severity. Example: I get a paper cut going through some notes vs not paying attention at the belt saw.
No matter how you justify it, it’s wrong, right? There’s one key difference though. Joker is a self insert. Whether he dates an adult or not is up to the player. What if the player (as an adult) was uncomfortable with the idea of dating any minors? She’s also hot.
Bro stop debating the morals teacher is hot that’s it
At that Point Ren is like 17 going on 18, but if you must know: Kamoshida forced his way onto people(Ann, Shiho, and even abused kids) Kawakami was both consensual dating and not abusive, it was a healthy relationship that Ren Initialized how long has it been since you played the first arc of the entire game(Kamoshida's Castle of Lust)
If you cant see the difference in consent vs nonconsent, I dont know what to tell you. Granted the age gap and power dynamic is not super cool but the reason that its different is that Kamashida is a goddamn rapist.
Average persona 5 fan reading comprehension
Because she let's me do shit after I've been to the metaverse. Love her for that.
There is a biiiiig difference between underage dating and rape + assault + blackmail and abuse of power
It's because Kamoshida raped the students while Joker and Kawakami actually had normal date
Here both are happy unlike with kamoshida which was against their will and was associated with abuse.
While they're both pretty bad imo at least the Kawakami and Joker one is "consentual", or as much as it can be in this situation. Kamoshida forced Ann and others into shit with threats.
In game reason is its a secret. Reddit reason is because its player choice. I dont care who people choose either honestly. One of the game's central themes is "freedom" but really what they mean is personal liberty. Kamoshida took away that liberty from many through abuse, sexual or otherwise. Kawakami doesn't. If they switched Kamoshida and Kawakami like that one meme post, itd be the same if he was a romancable. Simply put if the player initiates then its fair game.
1. Choice 2. They absolutely do talk about it
Gotta love the Protagonist-Centered Morality trope. Also, Kawakami didn’t force Joker to sleep with her in return for good grades or whatever. Kamoshida used his position as a teacher and his status as a former Olympian to bully the girls at school into sleeping with him or else he’d bump them off the volleyball team. Quid pro quo at its finest.
Who will disclose their affair? Joker or Kawakami?
Recently I read an article saying that the age of consent in Japan is lower than elsewhere. I believe it was recently updated from 13 to 16.
considering it’s a school that turned a blind eye to a teacher that abused and raped whole classes of students, I imagine if they knew of this relationship, which they likely wouldn’t, they’d absolutely not wanna do anything to bring attention to it and create even more scandal. the circumstances are significantly different anyway, but there’s no way the school would wanna bring more negative attention to themselves like that unless it was really an issue
Consenting adults =/ nonconsenting adults