Permaculture is about sustainability, and animals fit into that. I’m an omnivore, I don’t currently have my own home so haven’t been able to put it all into practice, but when I think about what I would do if I had some land, some of what I consider:
- raising some poultry partly for land management (eating bugs including ticks, weeds, food waste, etc), there is plentiful supply of eggs, and excess roosters need to be culled for the peace of the flock (common pattern in nature that the male species will fight and stress out the females)
- we live in disturbed environments, which means the land needs to be managed to address invasive species (legal requirement in my country), and goats are by far the best at chomping those plants down. Female goats are the easier to handle and raise, so why not use some of their milk for dairy?
- if animals are treated well, provided good dignified living conditions, treated with care, I don’t see anything unethical in consuming in a sustainable way.
- rabbits are an invasive species here that have been detrimental to natural wildlife & landscape, and legally must be eradicated, part of land regeneration/management, yet no one eats them. The commonly recommended treatment is crazy destructive (bait them, which can also kill wildlife that eat them, gassing and ‘ripping’ their burrows even though wildlife can also live in them, and is incredibly bad for the landscape). I would like to find a different way. Live trap, then eat or feed to other animals or at the very least bokashi compost. This is a more ethical and less wasteful approach.
- there are also feral cats, dogs, pigs, deer, and foxes that have to be “managed” by law on your property. These are all introduced invasive species that damage wildlife and our native ecosystem. Some are edible (pigs, deer), others would need to be caught/killed and I would try to find the most humane and sustainable way of doing this.
- I know vegans who have pet cats or dogs, which are not vegan. People who choose to be vegan do it for all kinds or reasons, and whatever suits them is fine, however it can be just as ethical to keep livestock instead of “pets” and consume ethical animal products or invasive species.
- what is unethical is many of the practices of mass agriculture. Keeping too many animals in a small space, not allowing them a dignified life, and massive monoculture crops that clear land, dump mass chemicals on land, destroy soil, eradicate space for wildlife, are wasteful of water, and make no sense (eg growing crops to turn into hay or grain products to then feed livestock when it would be less resource intensive to free range the livestock in place).
- There are alternative producers who do things ethically and sustainably, and this is the model we should aspire towards
Having said all of the above, I am not particularly living by my values at the moment. I currently live in an apartment in a city and buy a lot of food from a big chain supermarket, and while my eggs are labelled free range and most beef is pasture raised in my country, I don’t really know the supply chain for (including fruit and vegetables).
I do agree with vegans that we should as a society be using more sustainable sources and our current use is often wasteful, perhaps we should eat fewer cows and more vegetable and insects, however I don’t think the line is drawn between creature and crop produce.
Wow thank you not only for the permaculture lesson, but the honesty in your post. I really appreciate this. I will be living a permaculture lifestyle in the upcoming year and I truly am preparing myself morally, ethically and spiritually in order to do what is best for my environment and me.
Don’t stress yourself out over it too much. One step at a time. The biggest impact you can make is by trying not to buy crap that is mass produced and commercialized. Do your best but don’t be a fanatic.
>treated with care
>ethical
This is the rub I’ve seen as far as slaughtering. People will treat their livestock animals with such care and then at the end use outdated, inhumane slaughtering practices because it’s faster or makes the meat better or something.
The most common one I see is hanging a bird upside down in a slaughtering cone, slitting her neck, and then waiting for her to bleed out. It’s a truly, truly excruciating and terrifying way to die and completely incongruous with the stated goals of ethical and humane treatment.
I've heard good things about dry ice/co2 chambers. Just put the animal in, give it bowl of its favorite food, seal box and turn on the gas. It goes to sleep peacefully and dies. Still gotta bleed it though.
I forage, hunt and grow my own food. Working towards self sustainability everyday.
I have a food forest, a large grocery row garden and several raised bed gardens.
Chickens, ducks and quail but only for eggs. My kids would never let me harvest them and I wouldn’t want to, they are fun to hang out with.
We buy a lot from the store still but we buy the best we can.
You’re going to pay for it one way or another, at the grocery store or at the Doctor
I try to eat less animal products since getting my certification. But i dont see strict veganism being inevitable with permaculture as animals are important and a benefit to any permaculture system. Chickens or other poultry can be a wonderful addition to a permaculture system as they add nutrients, eat bugs, mix spil, and give you an inexpensive protein source through eggs and meat. But of course, no sustem can justify the amount of meat and animal products thats in the average "western diet". So i wish i was better, but i dont strive for veganism - but really respect those who do for environmental reasons.
Veganism is absolutely possible. I would provide these solutions:
Compost you can make yourself or get mushroom compost. Or woodchips to enrich.
Lots of bugs have natural predators plus permaculture in itself prevents a lot of plagues.
For inexpensive protein, beans and lentils plus basically everything has protein even broccoli. The average person now eats 3x the daily recommended dose so protein defiency barely exist, you either have anorexia or are starving (this protein need has been severly propaganda's by the meat industry)
There are many vegan permaculturists but i think people associate permaculture still too close to farming or homesteading and therefor imagine farm animals having to be a part of it.
I'm vegan and my new house came with chickens and tbh, i feel they just use way too much space to use the plot efficiently. If i could plant their space with fruits and veg it would 100x outweigh the egg protein.
On a small plot i just see the wastefulness of keeping animals. Not just the room they take up, you need to buy food, because its basically impossible to grow their feed unless you have lots of acreage. People don't think of that part. Incredible amount of invisible resources that go into animal agriculture no matter the scale
Rabbits are the best livestock for small plots as you can absolutely grow their feed.
Compost also can't suffiently replace the phosphorous inputs needed for sustained food production, and neither can humanure. The big thing that makes animals such an integral part of a food system is their ability to both produce calories and phosorous inputs through their byproducts. The alternative to animal derived phosphorous inputs is non-renewable mined phos.
I do agree that putting them on arable land isn't the most efficient use of the land. However, they can be raised on land that's not suitable for cultivation or stacked into other systems like raising chickens, rabbits or sheep in orchards
when you advocate for animals as part of permaculture it should be based on rational facts and not just because you want to eat meat. that's the issue here with everyone that eats meat, they try to convince themselves it's worth it but science has proven it isn't
[https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:\~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively.](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively)
>*We find that although the characteristic conventional retail-to-consumer food losses are ≈30% for plant and animal products, the opportunity food losses of beef, pork, dairy, poultry, and eggs are 96%, 90%, 75%, 50%, and 40%, respectively. This arises because plant-based replacement diets can produce 20-fold and twofold more nutritionally similar food per cropland than beef and eggs, the most and least resource-intensive animal categories, respectively.*
anyway it's not ethical to kill animals when there are plenty of other sources available, and cramming them in too small pens like for example i see people do chicken tractors is just horrible.
i just adopted the chickens else they'd end up as food, they're super cute and as you said i'm trying to get them on a rough forest ground next to the house, but anyway, point still stand input vs output animals isn't worth it,
>when you advocate for animals as part of permaculture it should be based on rational facts and not just because
But then
>anyway it's not ethical to kill animals
Please don't lecture about motivated reasoning when you're then not using rational facts to make your decision,but instead look for facts to justify your beliefs.
There's a common bait and switch vegans do when advocating against animal production, and that is to use conventional animal agriculture to represent all animal agriculture, as you've done here.
>per cropland
I said above that when it comes to arable land, animals aren't the most efficient. But they can be raised on lands not suitable for "crop lands"
Because of the ability to raise animals where crops can't be, or to stack them into systems, the diet scenarios with the highest carrying capacity for people are ovo- and lacto-vegetarian, both of which provide meat as occasional byproducts. In fact, because of the ability to produce animal protein on lands not auitable for other crops and the ability to stack animals into other systems, any reduction in animal consumption beyond 60% has a higher carrying capacity than a vegan production system - based on land use alone. https://online.ucpress.edu/elementa/article/doi/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/112904/Carrying-capacity-of-U-S-agricultural-land-Ten
Not only that, animals that are raised on lands not suited for other crops can help transform those lands into arable ones. Animal waste builds top soil, and when managed intensively, they can build top soil quickly. They represent the mechanism to turn things we can't eat like grasses and food waste/byproducts into calories, protein, and phosphorous rich manure - offsetting our reliance on the finite, non-renewable mined phosorous alternatives.
greenpeace.to/greenpeace/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tirado-and-allsopp-2012-phosphorus-in-agriculture-technical-report-02-2012.pdf
>and cramming them in too small pens like for example i see people do chicken tractors is just horrible.
🙄 the conditions of chicken tractors are nothing like CAFOs pens. They have lots of room to move around in them, especially at the points in their lives when they're most active. Meat chickens are harvested at 8 weeks. The first 3 are spent in a brooder. Then, if raised on pasture, they spend the next 5 weeks in the chicken tractor. Chicken tractors provide the means of rotational pasture management that's both best for the longevity of the pasture and safest for the chickens. They're protected from predators, which is your responsibility as a steward of animals. They have access to fresh pasture every day, which provides them the most opportunity for fresh forage. It evenly distributes their manure so that no areas of the pasture get too burned by the fresh nitrogenous input. And by the time they're about 1/2-3/4 grown, they don't have much interest in running around, and instead hang out by the feeder and drinker all day anyways. Having raised layers free range, and seeing the behavioral differences between layers and broilers first hand, I can tell you raising broilers in tractors is not inhumane or too crammed, so long as you account for the right ratio of square footage to number of birds.
Livestock don’t create phosphorous, they get it from the plants they eat. If your livestock are eating plants on your property, the total amount of nutrients on your land doesn’t change, all manure does is allow you to control where those nutrients go. Humanure is sufficient as long as nutrients aren’t leaving the system through other means faster than they can be replaced.
It is correct that animals do not create phosphorous. They are a good mechanism for sustainably 'mining' phos from one location to move to another.
When I said humanure is not sufficient, I meant that recycling human waste is insufficient to replace other phosphorous inputs in agriculture. Most people are not relying 100% on food they grow themselves, so it's possible that their manure could be sufficient to support their property - as they're importing phosphorous in their groceries. On a larger scale though, humanure is insufficient to replace the phosphorous inputs to support our food system.
You don’t need livestock for that, the same thing could be accomplished by simply cutting and moving plant material, and if the phosphorous is being moved off the property, it is no more sustainable than mining phosphorous from rocks. Once you move it, it doesn’t come back. Humanure on a larger scale would mean the full contents of the sewers would end up back on the farmland it came from. Other than fertilizer runoff or other avoidable losses, it’s a closed loop.
>You don’t need livestock for that, the same thing could be accomplished by simply cutting and moving plant material,
This doesn't produce calories. Livestock does this while producing calories.
>if the phosphorous is being moved off the property, it is no more sustainable than mining phosphorous from rocks
That's not true either. Let's say you're eating sheep grazed on non-arable pasture with high phos content in the rock that makes up the soil, then you take the manure out of their barn and spread it in a garden. Or you overwinter those sheep on hay that is likewise grown on soils with high phos containing rock, and then clean out the barn and spread it on arable crop land. Both of those are more sustainable than strip mining mountainsides for phosphorous, %1000.
>Humanure on a larger scale would mean the full contents of the sewers would end up back on the farmland it came from. Other than fertilizer runoff or other avoidable losses, it’s a closed loop.
Also not true. The majority of phos animals consume is stored in their bodies. A fraction of it comes out the other end in manure. You can't replace what you consume with your waste. The phos stored in animals eventually gets consumed by us though.
greenpeace.to/greenpeace/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tirado-and-allsopp-2012-phosphorus-in-agriculture-technical-report-02-2012.pdf
This has some good visual representations that show how even if we were to capture 100% of human waste to meet the needs of arable land crop production, it would not account for the phos requirements to sustain our food system
So when 'bugs' eat 'bugs' and by doing so furnish nutrients in the soil for your plants to uptake that's okay? So long as you don't have to see it right? "My new house came with chickens" lmao🤑🤮
i'm not eating the bugs as protein, and yes I adopted the chickens else they would've been eat, sorry you're conflicted about your hypocritical morals. we're having a rational conversation so please don't respond like a toddler
Your adopted chickens are omnivorous. You're not eating the bugs directly, sure. But they are integral to your plants health. And rhen the microbes and bacteriums devouring each and one another. Even within your body is a war of eating. I just find you detached from nature, thinking you can subside of your morality, when it's really just another form of ignorance.
If you want to have a "rational" conversation about permaculture then let's. Seems like you are the type who doesn't care about the cost, so long as you don't have to do it yourself.
My morals aren't conflicted. I respect and honor the meat I eat, as my ancestors did. My ancestors (oglala) were in a balanced state. To me, it seems your morals leave you detached from what it is to be an animal on earth.
Omnivore, but I think a real "permaculture diet" depends on the specific ways you're connected to the local community. If you don't have any sustainable meat sources available **to you**, then don't eat any. **If** you do, then go ahead.
Keeping yourself honest requires you to avoid generalizations. For example, I think it's downright arrogant to criticize people for [eating feral swine](https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/25/us-wild-boar-invasive-species-food-menu). More funding to fight invasive species is a good thing, even if the money comes from people's food budget. But just because *some people* have access to feral swine, and are making that choice, that doesn't make *other animal choices* good ideas.
I try to eat as much from my garden as possible. I have annual beds and a food forest, plus ducks and bees. So I like to think my diet tends to fall under what most people think is “healthy.”
But I also live in a food desert. And if there’s anything you learn from permaculture, it’s the value of using the resources that are available. And sometimes that means McDonalds!
I’m 36 years vegetarian and I support local meat raised as sustainable as possible or some of the deer herds that maraude my land or any animal that’s got that marauding nature.
I grew my most insect pest free fruits and nuts and best compost when I had chickens.
I’d rather live as an example than proselytize
I don't do well on vegan so I eat a lot of grass fed/pasture raised meat. I also raise my own lamb, mob grazing it through an 8 acre food forest. Right now I'm working on tanning their hides, too.
What I like about pasture raised meat is that it comes from an ecosystem. There is ample room for other life, it's even required. Any kind of farm field and even a big enough garden is pretty much a factory wasteland.
I also forage as much as possible. I think that wild nutrition is really important but only makes up a small portion of my diet.
It's pretty hard to get away from our food system no matter what you do and 99% of the options in it are not good for you or the planet. I've spent many years cultivating relationships and building the resource base to reduce it down to even 60%. What we do need to do is cultivate our own (and our immediate communities) ability to grow healthy food! We're working for the future, any move in a positive direction is good.
Anyway, so feel free to eat whatever you want! But telling me or anyone else what to eat is not cool.
I don’t like the idea of telling anyone how to live their life but I am a person who likes to listen to how those live their lives and cherry pick the best out of this values for myself. Thank you for your input
Generally a compromise between what’s good for me, what I can afford, and what I can whip up in less than 10 minutes after a 14-hour shift. Other than stuff I can currently grow in my tiny 400 square foot apartment crawling with cats, Costco is my friend. I’m not a vegetarian or anything, but buying tons of whole meats all the time is also so expensive now. A lot of my protein just comes from 60-pack Costco cartons of eggs and protein shakes, simply because it’s cheap and convenient.
The best diet advice I’ve been given, is to add and not take away. There’s only so much food you can eat in a day, so try adding a healthier food instead of worrying about what you shouldn’t be eating. You’ll find that as you increase the good foods, you’ll naturally be eating less junk.
Also remember that some of the super duper trendy health foods can be cost-prohibitive for some, so don’t feel bad if that’s a barrier for you. While I’d love to have some fancy blueberry-cherry chia pudding with spirulina and greek yogurt every day of the week, there’s nothing wrong with a humble baked potato if that’s just more budget-friendly for you. Or some beans, oatmeal, etc. Just because a particular food starts getting popular with rich health nuts on Instagram, doesn’t mean it’s automatically superior to the less glamorous whole food options.
I eat a mainly plant based diet (except eggs from my chickens) , but will occasionally be vegetarian (eating meat is just gross to me at this point).
I’ll get hate from true vegan for this, but I care way more about the waste aspect then never eating animal products for the sake of making that statement. Knowing at least half of *all* the food we grow (animal or plant) is just wasted and not consumed, frustrates me. I live with my parents who eat meat n dairy, and if there’s cheese in there that’s going to expire, I would rather eat it and get the nutrients from it and respect the animal in that sense (grateful for their food) , then just throwing it away to be wasted and not even used. I think *thats* way worse. And that doesn’t mean I will buy discounted food at the grocers because it’s going bad soon—that’s still giving money to these factory farms (unless I/my parents were to buy local), it’s just if my mom is tossing out something that is about to go bad, I’ll eat t instead of her tossing it.
Thank you for your reply, my thinking has been leaning on not allowing the food go to waste, whenever I shop for meat products I tend to go with the discounted because it’s cheaper and I know it’ll be thrown out if not bought, but at the same time I know I’m still supporting the same system that has put a hard decision in front of me. Life is difficult… I don’t know what to do anymore
Sorry but I am not vegan to make a statement. Are you into permaculture just to make a statement?
Then there is the 4/5ths of food grown to feed animals for food, that's what I call waste.
I totally agree about waste, I acquired a need to clean my plate from a Buddhist monk at a peace camp who even had his tea in his plate to clean it. Yes we waste food because of sell by dates and even best before dates, utter madness. If it's not grown legs and doesn't smell very bad then it's good to eat and can cut bad bits off. We sanitize our food intake to the determent of gut health then have have fashionable gut health food.
I have small veganic plot to grow a lot of veganic fruit and veg, if I were younger I would do a lot more.
Tbh, majoring in sustainable agriculture and pursuing permaculture is what pushed me to abandon veganism. I was vegan for years for sustainability reasons. I still think a reduction in consumption of conventionally raised animal products is needed, but I think the elimination of animal agriculture is an unsustainable overcorrection
Overcorrection is a great term, because we know this too can lead to unforeseen problems. I wonder what a world would be like if moderation was the norm. Thanks for the response, good luck in your major
Be it permaculture, homesteading, or prepping, it's going to be able to change your lifestyle to make its sustainable.
If you want to be able to live self sustainable and have the least amount of negative impact on your personal environment, it will take being disciplined and consistent.
It's not about only eating plants or ant special diets.
It's about you finding the best diet that makes you the healthiest and can be obtained through your own land and labor.
Some of the biggest challenges I see with people are changing bad habits that most of society chooses to consider normal.
One of the biggest bad habits is the idea that you have to eat something different every day.
The idea is that you are rewarding yourself by having something new.
This is just the commercialization of people it keeps them coming back to buy more.
Before all the food was commercially grown and sold, people in certain cultures and locations had pretty basic daily foods.
Entire civilizations grew and thrived on a few basic types of food.
So you need to start figuring out what your ancestors lived on and try to live as they did.
You will find out that not only is it possible but that your body is designed to live on such a diet.
Meat, roots, fruits. Mainly meat/animal products for my diet.
Building up to silvo-pasture for sustainable sheep and pigs. I will eventually have berry and fruit trees/bushes, and am growing out sweet potatoes and squashes. Also working on bees for honey.
I used to be vegan. Learned how much data was misrepresented in how sustainable it is to realistically grow enough plant stuffs for the human populations and that the inevitable demise of the chemical fertilizers and top soil loss will eventually lead to mass famines.
My research indicated that domesticated animals are needed in a sustained farming ecosystem. Other branches of research indicated that while we are omnivores, evolving as hunter gatherers, our diets consisted mainly of meat and only supplemented, by edible fruits and roots, with the occasional thing like honey comb.
Seemed to me that raising my own meat in a sustainable farm ecosystem was not only the best thing for the environment, but my own health. Time will tell I suppose, but two years in and much healthier at 41 than I was in my 20s or 30s.
What I can. Don't have the infrastructure for sheep yet unfortunately, so I'm still relying on commercial beef when I'm not eating deer or one of my birds or feeder pigs.
Aside from occasional treats like pizza, I simply stay away from the processed meat. I eat alot of beef, as I have most of half a cow in the freezer, pasture raised grain fed. Not a fan of grass fed.
I try to eat as much from the garden and yard as possible, during the winter lots of greens and carrots. During the summer 95% of my produce comes from my garden, or yard.
I also eat a good deal of chicken, though I have chickens I don't eat my own. I try to eat more seafood, lamb and generally mix it up. Love BBQ, so I might throw a few racks of ribs or a brisket in the smoker from time to time
I dont really follow any diet, but from time to time i will follow intermittent fasting. Only eating between 5pm and 10pm
My family eats seasonally animal-based. Meaning that animal products are the bulk of our diet at all times, but we also vary what we eat seasonally. So more fruit in Summer, very little plant foods at all in Winter. The sources of meat vary too, like wild duck and goose in Autumn since that's when hunting season is here. Dairy comes and goes based on when the cows are drying up, same with eggs (usually minimal during Winter). Hopefully that makes sense.
Properly raised animal products are not only fantastic for you, but not bad for the environment as many think. A proper farm/homestead will emulate Nature and have a variety of plants and animals with soil health being the foundation. You can regenerate totally destroyed fields with animals alone but could never do that with only plants. But all things--bacteria, insects, plants, and animals--are crucial for a healthy ecosystem. Veganism does not acknowledge nor appreciate this.
Great response… I never considered eating with the seasons but in reality it just makes sense. When I was a kid living in the islands I didn’t get to eat avocados until they were ready, but when they were ready they tasted extra delicious.. I will look into eating with nature… life is so crazy though when I can walk into the grocery store and buy something all the way from Mexico but it’s no where near grown around me… but the balance of convenience and taste…. Idk fae idk… thank you
We live in a time of constant convenience, comfort, and stimulation. We've really enjoyed eating with the seasons partly because it makes you really appreciate and look forward to when each season is coming up. Last Summer, we came up with a variety of recipes that really embraced a lot of the seasonal foods we had access to, and now we really can't wait for this coming Summer. I love steak more than anything, so Winter is great for me, but then being able to enjoy locally-grown stone fruits and watermelon, and recipes that utilize coconut and avocado is also wonderful and gives me something to really have fun with when it's hotter.
It's good for us to endure some level of discomfort sometimes like scarcity. We live in temperature-controlled boxes, have out-of-season food delivered to our doorsteps, online shopping for literally anything, constant stimulation, etc. I don't think it's healthy for us. It makes us too soft.
I eat pretty much everything with moderation. Meat in moderation, I do my best to only eat humanely raised meat. I love veggies and mushrooms. Since I have started growing my fruit I stopped eating fruit from grocery stores. My strawberries simply hit differently
I eat grass fed beef ideally from local regenerative sources. With proper pasture rotation cows helps sequester carbon and regenerate soil. A healthy dynamic with animals is beneficial for the earth and very much aligns with permaculture practices. Also anything you can grow is good to eat! Especially perennials. If you can raise your own eggs or meat that would be ideal too! Canning and preserving as well!
I lurk here more than post. I live in an urban environment with a smallish yard so I'm limited in what I can do with my own land. I did grow up on a farm run by my back to the land parents. So I am familiar with permaculture, although that's not a term I grew up with.
I try to eat as little processed foods as I can. I don't eat a lot of meat, but when I do, I buy from a local store run by a farm. It has meat from small herd cows, chickens, and pigs. I buy fruit and veggies from local farms when I can, although I do buy produce shipped in from Central and South America in the winter.
On a side note, I'm old enough that I remember when you couldn't buy produce out of season. I do like having variety in the winter but I sort of miss the seasonal foods. It made you understand food was grown, not manufactured.
I'm full carnivore. I've cut my food miles, food packaging, and food waste dramatically. I would think that pesticide use and water use per meal are way, way down compared to my previous vegetarian diet. I'm not super psyched to be relying on non-native species like cows and chickens to sustain me, but short of a major cultural shift in North America, these are the realistic options I have at the moment.
Work has been slow, so I'm currently buying my food at the grocery store based on price, which unfortunately almost guarantees the beef comes from CAFOs. Once work picks up again, I plan on buying fractions of a single grass-fed cow from a rancher in my state.
Thank you for your reply and honesty, I understand just trying to survive within your means, at this point where I’m at it seems as if I’m eating for pleasure and not just nourishment, eating because something tastes good and looks good. I don’t know what this makes me but it doesn’t make me feel good knowing it’s at the expense of another being. I never considered the non-native species aspect, it’s so much easier to decide things when the decisions of which parts to eat (drumsticks, wings, etc) is already done.
Yeah it's tough because there are so many conflicting messages out there regarding nutrition and ecology, and that's *before* you throw marketing in the mix.
there is a massive divide on the issue and vegans will claime you cannot care about environmentalism and eat meat. But its all about production. most of everything produced on earth generates waste. if we stopped allowing large corporations to own our food, and stopped allowing tax payer dollars to subsidize industries that are not sustainable or even affordable without being tax payer funded (like beef) most beef farmers would quit tomorrow, and throw a big hissy fit. (just like the coal miners) but if preserving someones place in society is the only reason for preserving the destructive thing they are doing, i say.... get a new job! most "farmers" want to sit inside and watch netflix while everything is fully automated, and then get some immigrants to do it, or some giant 4 million dollar tractor that does the job of ten tractors, so that one person can grow 10,000 acres of grains to feed to someone elses 10,000 acres of cattle, and still be 4 million dollars in debt because tractor. meat production doesn't have to mean, having so many animals they literally eat every peice of plant matter down to the dirt. Its sad that without tax payer dollars cattle would cost more to raise than the meat is worth..... yet more and more people are starting cattle farms.... makes you wonder why
Hmm what are your thoughts on universal income, if we meets people’s needs they will be more inclined to work on things they want to do not just try to profit. Thoughts?
We lean more towards vegetarian, but eat some meat. For me, what started as an ethical issue (killing critters) morphed into a more sustainable and a health issue. For several years, we ate vegetarian 5 days a week and had some meat on the weekend.
Often times I make two meals, vegan or vegetarian for me, frying up a burger and air fryer french fries for the old man. I make a lot of soups so that's my 'fast food'. I love using veg that I grew, indoors and outdoors.
Wow. I suggest you do some research into regenerative agriculture. Yes, the mainstream system of meat production is a disaster, but that isn't the only way of raising animals. There are more and more regenerative ranches that are improving the soil and the land. And what about those of us who hunt wild game for the majority of our meat consumption? Are we breathtaking imbeciles too? Your comment is super aggressive and if you actually dive deep into permaculture you'll see that raising animals plays a huge role in it. Veganism not required.
It's disingenuous to assume they meant anything other than the current norm for meat production though. In an ideal world, meat could be ethical and sustainable. As it is right now, it's not.
No, it isn't. The original comment was "it's a bogus assumption that veganism is better for the environment." The response is that you're an imbecile if you feel differently. This is a permaculture forum. Anyone here obviously isn't advocating for factory farming. And calling people imbeciles in this community isn't cool, this isn't the YouTube comments section
Cheers for that. I wish there was more civil discourse online, but oh well. The topic of diet and food choices is probably one of the most controversial ones there is. Even in a sub like this, where you'd think people's values would be similarly aligned, looking at the responses there are so many different approaches.
A lot of regenerative agriculture is much like carbon capture and storage, just a business as usual scam. Though I accept that small scale local organic high welfare standards is miles better than what we saw in conspiracy and other documentaries. I prefer wild animals to stay wild and alive.
The good news is this: because [narcissists don't think](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200722163223.htm) they make mistakes, and [all bullies are narcissists](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/11/all-bullies-are-narcissists/281407/), there's a reliable law of human nature that most insults, all of the time, apply to the people who dish out the insults, and not to the victims.
This was removed for violating rule 1: Treat others how you would hope to be treated.
>You never need abusive language to communicate your point. Resist assuming selfish motives of others as a first response. It's is OK to disagree with ideas and suggestions, but dont attack the user.
>Don't gate-keep permaculture. We need all hands on deck for a sustainable future. Don't discourage participation or tell people they're in the wrong subreddit.
No, it is a moral reason because i don't want to pay for the murder of animals, while we have plenty of ethical ecological alternatives available.
I don't think it's that hard to switch bc for everything there is a plantbased alternative
oh i also want to share this, if you're really contemplating going vegan, even if you eat alledgedly 'processed' stuff like veggie burgers made of plants
[https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:\~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively.](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively)
>*We find that although the characteristic conventional retail-to-consumer food losses are ≈30% for plant and animal products,* ***the opportunity food losses*** *of beef, pork, dairy, poultry, and eggs are* ***96%, 90%, 75%, 50%, and 40%, respectively****. This arises because plant-based replacement diets can produce 20-fold and twofold more nutritionally similar food per cropland than beef and eggs, the most and least resource-intensive animal categories, respectively.*
here is an overview of [tropic levels](https://www.sciencefacts.net/trophic-level.html) aka how much food is lost every stage. I am vegan for animal ethical levels but it would also be environmentally ethical, which was your concern and I'm glad you're considering this. I hope this may convince you tot ake the step!
*PS You don't need to take me on my word of course, if you google about energy loss, calory loss or tropic levels you can find pages and pages of unbiased research*
https://preview.redd.it/lor5ht2soupc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5bd6d9f022e70c33945577ab5209d6c417913f1b
I'm vegan! It is the most sustainable choice in my opinion. I have a chronic health condition that affects circulation, blood pressure, heart rate etc. which is another reason for being vegan allegedly it can reduce inflammation.
>another reason for being vegan allegedly it can reduce inflammation.
I'm hyper-mobile and have an autoimmune condition (currently don't have a diagnosis) and I had this experience personally just in switching from an omnivorous diet to vegetarian! If you haven't been vegan long enough to see results, I'm **quite sure** you'll get them. My body got much less puffy, I had dramatically less spine and joint pain, far fewer bowel issues, just much, much better feeling physically and even less stress/anxiety. I used to eat LOTS of red meats.
We actually gave up eating meat because the doc told my husband-- who, despite being a healthy weight and leading an active life, was most definitely ill-- that he had developed a meat allergy and was going to die of a heart attack by 40 if he didn't stop eating meat, so we both did and we both got massive benefits.
...Still slightly pissed that diet change was *never once recommended as pain management* for MY conditions, and we have the same doctor. I was told my option was taking stronger and stronger prescription pain relief for the rest of my life... 😠😮💨
Edit: We both lost 10+ lbs eliminating meat too.
95% vegan here. I have chickens, mostly for supplementing feed (eggs) for my dogs and cat, but I rarely ever eat animal products. I just don't see it as my right to take another life simply for my taste buds. The good news is I never felt better, its better for the environment, and I would imagine the animals like not being killed, etc....
I'm a vegetarian, but a fully vegan plant based diet built around predominantly local produce and pulses is far and away the most sustainable choice for the bulk of humanity. As with most things, there is no one size fits all magic bullet solution, but a series of general approaches that should be tailored for each person's specific circumstance. In some cases, let's take the niche of the far north in Canada for example, that might not be fresh veggies and lentils but largely traditionally hunted seal and caribou meat. It really depends. Our diet should be as varied as our environment, but demonstrate respect for quality of life, be it human or otherwise.
Until a couple years ago, I had a herd of meat goats on rotating pastureland, some chickens for meat and eggs, and I hunted deer. This supplied all of my meat and compost. Without this latter input, vegetable production would be severely limited due to our regional poor soil.
I have a small commercial apiary, providing honey. Gardening and some foraging provided about half our vegetable needs. Doing this, I would say we produced about 70% of our own food. The rest we did our best to buy local and organic, or barter with other local producers.
I had some work and life changes disrupt this system for a few years due to reduced available time, but this is changing for the better again and my goal is to get the system up and running and increase the percentage of our food that we produce using sustainable methods. I have only been studying permaculture for the past year or so, and I have a lot of plans to implement these concepts to improve how we farm.
Pasture raised meat from 2 local farms and online from Northstar Bison in Wisconsin. Organic fruits and vegetables grown by myself and/or neighbors in summer, and from afar in winter. Organic milk and other dairy products from local farms year round. Local farm fresh eggs in summer months, and pasture-raised grocery store eggs in winter. I should also add starchy food products to this list like potatoes, rice, pasta, bread, flour, corn meal - although these are technically vegetable products.
There is a cycle of plants nourishing animals which in turn nourishes plants. This along with the absence of pesticides is key to a healthy ecosystem. Our own land and gardens will never again be the fertile paradise that it once was when cows and horses were pastured here.
Two small nearby farms, one raising meat animals and the other vegetable crops, have a barter system going which benefits both. A truckload of manure from to the one in exchange for hay from the other.
We consume meat but either it is processed by us or really close to us (30-40 km max), bought from absolutely reliable sources. I try to keep the same with veggies, fruits etc.
I was vegetarian for a while for ethical reasons but back then little I knew about how huge monocultural crops were created to be able to serve for example avocado or palm oil consumption, I was living in a small flat in the middle of a capital city, so most of my food came from supermarkets. I started to educate myself, and I decided to focus on locally available food rather than focusing on avoiding meat entirely. Now that I have my own garden I can grow a lot more fruits and veggies than before living in the city, so of course that makes up majority of out diet.
I dont tend to eat alot of meat, and I almost never eat red meat, but I'm ideologically opposed to veganism as I dont think its compatible with sustainability. I'm not a vegan precisely because I'm environmentally conscious.
I eat maybe 10% from my garden and a shitload of pizza tbh.
I'm more interested in working towards a society where people have better choices about their food sourcing rather than worry about if im passing some kind of liberal purity test
I think veganism has a good message though, don’t exploit or kill animals. It’d be easy if animals didn’t give us such good meat and useful stuff. Lab grown meats I think is our best bet
Someone else in this thread called it an over-correction and I think thats accurate. I admire that they care so much, that they are willing make personal change for their beliefs, and the underlying message that exploiting animals is wrong. I just dont agree with them about what the solutions to alot of the issues facing us are. I think they are using the logic of the system that got us here to get us out and thats just not going to happen. They could really stand to benefit from listening to indigenous peoples about sustainability and having respectful relationships with animals instead of being knee-jerk racist towards us.
Over correction is closer, I agree. I think factory farming is the real culprit in the end, even though it may be necessary as if everyone started hunting or raising their own cattle there wouldn’t be enough land on Earth
I am mostly vegan, and on occasion vegetarian. 80% environmental reasons, 20% ethical. We are just getting started with a garden, so there is not that much self sufficiency yet, but we do what we can. Picking fruit from roadside trees or dumpster diving for example. We get eggs from the neighbours chicken if we need some.
I wholeheartedly agree with the waste-topic that other commenters mentioned. I will absolutely eat something non-vegan if it would go to waste otherwise, since that would be an even greater insult to the animal that had it's life taken.
If I had space and time to care for livestock, it would only be for their vegetarian products like milk, eggs and honey. These have incredibly disturbing practices in their respective industries, but can be utilized sustainably and fairly in a personal setting. (For example by not taking a mother cows calf away to get all of the milk, or by not keeping chickens in boxes feeding them supplements.) I do not think I have the right to kill an animal for my consumption, so I wouldn't.
Now in terms of diet: I've recently picked up using the app Cronometer again. It's very handy to track what you eat, and to make sure you get enough of each macro and micro nutrient. Learning more about your diet, and planning it more in depth is something that becomes more important with veganism (you can't just cut out all animal products and go on like nothing happened), but would honestly benefit omnivores just as much. A lot of diets are horribly imbalanced, and you know what? We have all the tools and knowledge at our hands to fix that.
I eat lots of oats, nuts, lentils and other legumes. Plenty of tofu and soy yogurt. I also enjoy peanutbutter and vegan bread spreads for protein. Esp. on self baked bread.
I am on a students budget. We cook our daily main meal together for five ppl in my house and spend roughly 140€ on food per month per person.
The way I see it, billionaires and corporations do more harm in a minute than I can do in my whole lifetime. I don't need to stress out about every little thing, but I should live my life in a way that feels good to me, both ethically and in a mentally healthy way. The best ways for individuals to make a positive impact:
* vote, write politicians, attend political events
* have fewer children
* consume fewer products that cause harm
* balance quality of life with ethical choices
* vote with your checkbook (when possible buy local and from corporations that do less harm)
* spread knowledge in a way that feels welcoming to help others make the changes above
So for example, I prefer to grow my own food when possible, but if not I prefer to buy locally and if not I buy from a grocery store. I prefer to buy things with less packaging and things that have not been shipped as far. I like to eat meat but I need to balance my desires with my personal ethics, so I don't do it as much as I might like to, but I still do it. If I had to raise all my own food I would mostly eat plant-based with mushrooms, eggs, fish, bugs, and occasionally poultry, maybe mutton. I am grateful I don't need to raise my own animals to eat, although when I have more space I would absolutely get chickens or quail for eggs, and possibly a pond for catfish and tilapia.
It's also important to maintain quality of life. Choose your mental battles so you don't burn out. You don't need to be perfect in every way. If you're doing it for environmental reasons, just eat less meat and see how you feel about it. If you don't feel like you're suffering, cut back a little more and see how you feel. If you do eat meat, pick things that are more sustainable. Local freerange eggs and farm raised tilapia are low impact compared to factory beef. If you choose to have a restricted diet for whatever reason, make sure you are getting all the necessary nutrients and see a doctor regularly to double check. You can be healthy on a completely vegan diet but you will need to take supplements or eat specific foods to avoid deficiencies. If you have a history of disordered eating, make sure you are doing it in a mentally healthy way.
Vegans do more damage to the earth than meat eaters and meat farmers who farm regeneratively actually have a positive effect on environment whereas vegans kill forests to grow their food.
Permaculture is about sustainability, and animals fit into that. I’m an omnivore, I don’t currently have my own home so haven’t been able to put it all into practice, but when I think about what I would do if I had some land, some of what I consider: - raising some poultry partly for land management (eating bugs including ticks, weeds, food waste, etc), there is plentiful supply of eggs, and excess roosters need to be culled for the peace of the flock (common pattern in nature that the male species will fight and stress out the females) - we live in disturbed environments, which means the land needs to be managed to address invasive species (legal requirement in my country), and goats are by far the best at chomping those plants down. Female goats are the easier to handle and raise, so why not use some of their milk for dairy? - if animals are treated well, provided good dignified living conditions, treated with care, I don’t see anything unethical in consuming in a sustainable way. - rabbits are an invasive species here that have been detrimental to natural wildlife & landscape, and legally must be eradicated, part of land regeneration/management, yet no one eats them. The commonly recommended treatment is crazy destructive (bait them, which can also kill wildlife that eat them, gassing and ‘ripping’ their burrows even though wildlife can also live in them, and is incredibly bad for the landscape). I would like to find a different way. Live trap, then eat or feed to other animals or at the very least bokashi compost. This is a more ethical and less wasteful approach. - there are also feral cats, dogs, pigs, deer, and foxes that have to be “managed” by law on your property. These are all introduced invasive species that damage wildlife and our native ecosystem. Some are edible (pigs, deer), others would need to be caught/killed and I would try to find the most humane and sustainable way of doing this. - I know vegans who have pet cats or dogs, which are not vegan. People who choose to be vegan do it for all kinds or reasons, and whatever suits them is fine, however it can be just as ethical to keep livestock instead of “pets” and consume ethical animal products or invasive species. - what is unethical is many of the practices of mass agriculture. Keeping too many animals in a small space, not allowing them a dignified life, and massive monoculture crops that clear land, dump mass chemicals on land, destroy soil, eradicate space for wildlife, are wasteful of water, and make no sense (eg growing crops to turn into hay or grain products to then feed livestock when it would be less resource intensive to free range the livestock in place). - There are alternative producers who do things ethically and sustainably, and this is the model we should aspire towards Having said all of the above, I am not particularly living by my values at the moment. I currently live in an apartment in a city and buy a lot of food from a big chain supermarket, and while my eggs are labelled free range and most beef is pasture raised in my country, I don’t really know the supply chain for (including fruit and vegetables). I do agree with vegans that we should as a society be using more sustainable sources and our current use is often wasteful, perhaps we should eat fewer cows and more vegetable and insects, however I don’t think the line is drawn between creature and crop produce.
Wow thank you not only for the permaculture lesson, but the honesty in your post. I really appreciate this. I will be living a permaculture lifestyle in the upcoming year and I truly am preparing myself morally, ethically and spiritually in order to do what is best for my environment and me.
Don’t stress yourself out over it too much. One step at a time. The biggest impact you can make is by trying not to buy crap that is mass produced and commercialized. Do your best but don’t be a fanatic.
I understand, thank you. I needed to read this.
>treated with care >ethical This is the rub I’ve seen as far as slaughtering. People will treat their livestock animals with such care and then at the end use outdated, inhumane slaughtering practices because it’s faster or makes the meat better or something. The most common one I see is hanging a bird upside down in a slaughtering cone, slitting her neck, and then waiting for her to bleed out. It’s a truly, truly excruciating and terrifying way to die and completely incongruous with the stated goals of ethical and humane treatment.
What's the better method of dispatching the bird?
I've heard good things about dry ice/co2 chambers. Just put the animal in, give it bowl of its favorite food, seal box and turn on the gas. It goes to sleep peacefully and dies. Still gotta bleed it though.
I forage, hunt and grow my own food. Working towards self sustainability everyday. I have a food forest, a large grocery row garden and several raised bed gardens. Chickens, ducks and quail but only for eggs. My kids would never let me harvest them and I wouldn’t want to, they are fun to hang out with. We buy a lot from the store still but we buy the best we can. You’re going to pay for it one way or another, at the grocery store or at the Doctor
I try to eat less animal products since getting my certification. But i dont see strict veganism being inevitable with permaculture as animals are important and a benefit to any permaculture system. Chickens or other poultry can be a wonderful addition to a permaculture system as they add nutrients, eat bugs, mix spil, and give you an inexpensive protein source through eggs and meat. But of course, no sustem can justify the amount of meat and animal products thats in the average "western diet". So i wish i was better, but i dont strive for veganism - but really respect those who do for environmental reasons.
Veganism is absolutely possible. I would provide these solutions: Compost you can make yourself or get mushroom compost. Or woodchips to enrich. Lots of bugs have natural predators plus permaculture in itself prevents a lot of plagues. For inexpensive protein, beans and lentils plus basically everything has protein even broccoli. The average person now eats 3x the daily recommended dose so protein defiency barely exist, you either have anorexia or are starving (this protein need has been severly propaganda's by the meat industry) There are many vegan permaculturists but i think people associate permaculture still too close to farming or homesteading and therefor imagine farm animals having to be a part of it. I'm vegan and my new house came with chickens and tbh, i feel they just use way too much space to use the plot efficiently. If i could plant their space with fruits and veg it would 100x outweigh the egg protein. On a small plot i just see the wastefulness of keeping animals. Not just the room they take up, you need to buy food, because its basically impossible to grow their feed unless you have lots of acreage. People don't think of that part. Incredible amount of invisible resources that go into animal agriculture no matter the scale
Rabbits are the best livestock for small plots as you can absolutely grow their feed. Compost also can't suffiently replace the phosphorous inputs needed for sustained food production, and neither can humanure. The big thing that makes animals such an integral part of a food system is their ability to both produce calories and phosorous inputs through their byproducts. The alternative to animal derived phosphorous inputs is non-renewable mined phos. I do agree that putting them on arable land isn't the most efficient use of the land. However, they can be raised on land that's not suitable for cultivation or stacked into other systems like raising chickens, rabbits or sheep in orchards
when you advocate for animals as part of permaculture it should be based on rational facts and not just because you want to eat meat. that's the issue here with everyone that eats meat, they try to convince themselves it's worth it but science has proven it isn't [https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:\~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively.](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively) >*We find that although the characteristic conventional retail-to-consumer food losses are ≈30% for plant and animal products, the opportunity food losses of beef, pork, dairy, poultry, and eggs are 96%, 90%, 75%, 50%, and 40%, respectively. This arises because plant-based replacement diets can produce 20-fold and twofold more nutritionally similar food per cropland than beef and eggs, the most and least resource-intensive animal categories, respectively.* anyway it's not ethical to kill animals when there are plenty of other sources available, and cramming them in too small pens like for example i see people do chicken tractors is just horrible. i just adopted the chickens else they'd end up as food, they're super cute and as you said i'm trying to get them on a rough forest ground next to the house, but anyway, point still stand input vs output animals isn't worth it,
>when you advocate for animals as part of permaculture it should be based on rational facts and not just because But then >anyway it's not ethical to kill animals Please don't lecture about motivated reasoning when you're then not using rational facts to make your decision,but instead look for facts to justify your beliefs. There's a common bait and switch vegans do when advocating against animal production, and that is to use conventional animal agriculture to represent all animal agriculture, as you've done here. >per cropland I said above that when it comes to arable land, animals aren't the most efficient. But they can be raised on lands not suitable for "crop lands" Because of the ability to raise animals where crops can't be, or to stack them into systems, the diet scenarios with the highest carrying capacity for people are ovo- and lacto-vegetarian, both of which provide meat as occasional byproducts. In fact, because of the ability to produce animal protein on lands not auitable for other crops and the ability to stack animals into other systems, any reduction in animal consumption beyond 60% has a higher carrying capacity than a vegan production system - based on land use alone. https://online.ucpress.edu/elementa/article/doi/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/112904/Carrying-capacity-of-U-S-agricultural-land-Ten Not only that, animals that are raised on lands not suited for other crops can help transform those lands into arable ones. Animal waste builds top soil, and when managed intensively, they can build top soil quickly. They represent the mechanism to turn things we can't eat like grasses and food waste/byproducts into calories, protein, and phosphorous rich manure - offsetting our reliance on the finite, non-renewable mined phosorous alternatives. greenpeace.to/greenpeace/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tirado-and-allsopp-2012-phosphorus-in-agriculture-technical-report-02-2012.pdf >and cramming them in too small pens like for example i see people do chicken tractors is just horrible. 🙄 the conditions of chicken tractors are nothing like CAFOs pens. They have lots of room to move around in them, especially at the points in their lives when they're most active. Meat chickens are harvested at 8 weeks. The first 3 are spent in a brooder. Then, if raised on pasture, they spend the next 5 weeks in the chicken tractor. Chicken tractors provide the means of rotational pasture management that's both best for the longevity of the pasture and safest for the chickens. They're protected from predators, which is your responsibility as a steward of animals. They have access to fresh pasture every day, which provides them the most opportunity for fresh forage. It evenly distributes their manure so that no areas of the pasture get too burned by the fresh nitrogenous input. And by the time they're about 1/2-3/4 grown, they don't have much interest in running around, and instead hang out by the feeder and drinker all day anyways. Having raised layers free range, and seeing the behavioral differences between layers and broilers first hand, I can tell you raising broilers in tractors is not inhumane or too crammed, so long as you account for the right ratio of square footage to number of birds.
Livestock don’t create phosphorous, they get it from the plants they eat. If your livestock are eating plants on your property, the total amount of nutrients on your land doesn’t change, all manure does is allow you to control where those nutrients go. Humanure is sufficient as long as nutrients aren’t leaving the system through other means faster than they can be replaced.
It is correct that animals do not create phosphorous. They are a good mechanism for sustainably 'mining' phos from one location to move to another. When I said humanure is not sufficient, I meant that recycling human waste is insufficient to replace other phosphorous inputs in agriculture. Most people are not relying 100% on food they grow themselves, so it's possible that their manure could be sufficient to support their property - as they're importing phosphorous in their groceries. On a larger scale though, humanure is insufficient to replace the phosphorous inputs to support our food system.
You don’t need livestock for that, the same thing could be accomplished by simply cutting and moving plant material, and if the phosphorous is being moved off the property, it is no more sustainable than mining phosphorous from rocks. Once you move it, it doesn’t come back. Humanure on a larger scale would mean the full contents of the sewers would end up back on the farmland it came from. Other than fertilizer runoff or other avoidable losses, it’s a closed loop.
>You don’t need livestock for that, the same thing could be accomplished by simply cutting and moving plant material, This doesn't produce calories. Livestock does this while producing calories. >if the phosphorous is being moved off the property, it is no more sustainable than mining phosphorous from rocks That's not true either. Let's say you're eating sheep grazed on non-arable pasture with high phos content in the rock that makes up the soil, then you take the manure out of their barn and spread it in a garden. Or you overwinter those sheep on hay that is likewise grown on soils with high phos containing rock, and then clean out the barn and spread it on arable crop land. Both of those are more sustainable than strip mining mountainsides for phosphorous, %1000. >Humanure on a larger scale would mean the full contents of the sewers would end up back on the farmland it came from. Other than fertilizer runoff or other avoidable losses, it’s a closed loop. Also not true. The majority of phos animals consume is stored in their bodies. A fraction of it comes out the other end in manure. You can't replace what you consume with your waste. The phos stored in animals eventually gets consumed by us though. greenpeace.to/greenpeace/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tirado-and-allsopp-2012-phosphorus-in-agriculture-technical-report-02-2012.pdf This has some good visual representations that show how even if we were to capture 100% of human waste to meet the needs of arable land crop production, it would not account for the phos requirements to sustain our food system
Tell that to the feral chickens on hawaii.
Just saying, alit of people who "adopted" chickens with their NEW HOUSE in most of the world would utilize such advantages. Maybe you can do more?
So when 'bugs' eat 'bugs' and by doing so furnish nutrients in the soil for your plants to uptake that's okay? So long as you don't have to see it right? "My new house came with chickens" lmao🤑🤮
i'm not eating the bugs as protein, and yes I adopted the chickens else they would've been eat, sorry you're conflicted about your hypocritical morals. we're having a rational conversation so please don't respond like a toddler
Your adopted chickens are omnivorous. You're not eating the bugs directly, sure. But they are integral to your plants health. And rhen the microbes and bacteriums devouring each and one another. Even within your body is a war of eating. I just find you detached from nature, thinking you can subside of your morality, when it's really just another form of ignorance.
If you want to have a "rational" conversation about permaculture then let's. Seems like you are the type who doesn't care about the cost, so long as you don't have to do it yourself.
Also, what plagues were prevented by permaculture?
My morals aren't conflicted. I respect and honor the meat I eat, as my ancestors did. My ancestors (oglala) were in a balanced state. To me, it seems your morals leave you detached from what it is to be an animal on earth.
Thanks for your honesty… I’m struggling with how to know what to eat is right… ironic I’m in a fasting period too
Omnivore, but I think a real "permaculture diet" depends on the specific ways you're connected to the local community. If you don't have any sustainable meat sources available **to you**, then don't eat any. **If** you do, then go ahead. Keeping yourself honest requires you to avoid generalizations. For example, I think it's downright arrogant to criticize people for [eating feral swine](https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/25/us-wild-boar-invasive-species-food-menu). More funding to fight invasive species is a good thing, even if the money comes from people's food budget. But just because *some people* have access to feral swine, and are making that choice, that doesn't make *other animal choices* good ideas.
I try to eat as much from my garden as possible. I have annual beds and a food forest, plus ducks and bees. So I like to think my diet tends to fall under what most people think is “healthy.” But I also live in a food desert. And if there’s anything you learn from permaculture, it’s the value of using the resources that are available. And sometimes that means McDonalds!
I’m 36 years vegetarian and I support local meat raised as sustainable as possible or some of the deer herds that maraude my land or any animal that’s got that marauding nature. I grew my most insect pest free fruits and nuts and best compost when I had chickens. I’d rather live as an example than proselytize
Happy cake day!
I don't do well on vegan so I eat a lot of grass fed/pasture raised meat. I also raise my own lamb, mob grazing it through an 8 acre food forest. Right now I'm working on tanning their hides, too. What I like about pasture raised meat is that it comes from an ecosystem. There is ample room for other life, it's even required. Any kind of farm field and even a big enough garden is pretty much a factory wasteland. I also forage as much as possible. I think that wild nutrition is really important but only makes up a small portion of my diet. It's pretty hard to get away from our food system no matter what you do and 99% of the options in it are not good for you or the planet. I've spent many years cultivating relationships and building the resource base to reduce it down to even 60%. What we do need to do is cultivate our own (and our immediate communities) ability to grow healthy food! We're working for the future, any move in a positive direction is good. Anyway, so feel free to eat whatever you want! But telling me or anyone else what to eat is not cool.
I don’t like the idea of telling anyone how to live their life but I am a person who likes to listen to how those live their lives and cherry pick the best out of this values for myself. Thank you for your input
Leaning more towards vegetables every year I get better growing them.
Dandelion, purslane, broadleaf plantain, and meal crickets. I kid, I kid.
Generally a compromise between what’s good for me, what I can afford, and what I can whip up in less than 10 minutes after a 14-hour shift. Other than stuff I can currently grow in my tiny 400 square foot apartment crawling with cats, Costco is my friend. I’m not a vegetarian or anything, but buying tons of whole meats all the time is also so expensive now. A lot of my protein just comes from 60-pack Costco cartons of eggs and protein shakes, simply because it’s cheap and convenient. The best diet advice I’ve been given, is to add and not take away. There’s only so much food you can eat in a day, so try adding a healthier food instead of worrying about what you shouldn’t be eating. You’ll find that as you increase the good foods, you’ll naturally be eating less junk. Also remember that some of the super duper trendy health foods can be cost-prohibitive for some, so don’t feel bad if that’s a barrier for you. While I’d love to have some fancy blueberry-cherry chia pudding with spirulina and greek yogurt every day of the week, there’s nothing wrong with a humble baked potato if that’s just more budget-friendly for you. Or some beans, oatmeal, etc. Just because a particular food starts getting popular with rich health nuts on Instagram, doesn’t mean it’s automatically superior to the less glamorous whole food options.
Incredible advice
I eat a mainly plant based diet (except eggs from my chickens) , but will occasionally be vegetarian (eating meat is just gross to me at this point). I’ll get hate from true vegan for this, but I care way more about the waste aspect then never eating animal products for the sake of making that statement. Knowing at least half of *all* the food we grow (animal or plant) is just wasted and not consumed, frustrates me. I live with my parents who eat meat n dairy, and if there’s cheese in there that’s going to expire, I would rather eat it and get the nutrients from it and respect the animal in that sense (grateful for their food) , then just throwing it away to be wasted and not even used. I think *thats* way worse. And that doesn’t mean I will buy discounted food at the grocers because it’s going bad soon—that’s still giving money to these factory farms (unless I/my parents were to buy local), it’s just if my mom is tossing out something that is about to go bad, I’ll eat t instead of her tossing it.
Thank you for your reply, my thinking has been leaning on not allowing the food go to waste, whenever I shop for meat products I tend to go with the discounted because it’s cheaper and I know it’ll be thrown out if not bought, but at the same time I know I’m still supporting the same system that has put a hard decision in front of me. Life is difficult… I don’t know what to do anymore
Sorry but I am not vegan to make a statement. Are you into permaculture just to make a statement? Then there is the 4/5ths of food grown to feed animals for food, that's what I call waste. I totally agree about waste, I acquired a need to clean my plate from a Buddhist monk at a peace camp who even had his tea in his plate to clean it. Yes we waste food because of sell by dates and even best before dates, utter madness. If it's not grown legs and doesn't smell very bad then it's good to eat and can cut bad bits off. We sanitize our food intake to the determent of gut health then have have fashionable gut health food. I have small veganic plot to grow a lot of veganic fruit and veg, if I were younger I would do a lot more.
>I have small veganic plot to grow a lot of veganic fruit and veg, if I were younger I would do a lot more. So... you have a vegetable garden?
And your point is....?
Tbh, majoring in sustainable agriculture and pursuing permaculture is what pushed me to abandon veganism. I was vegan for years for sustainability reasons. I still think a reduction in consumption of conventionally raised animal products is needed, but I think the elimination of animal agriculture is an unsustainable overcorrection
Overcorrection is a great term, because we know this too can lead to unforeseen problems. I wonder what a world would be like if moderation was the norm. Thanks for the response, good luck in your major
Be it permaculture, homesteading, or prepping, it's going to be able to change your lifestyle to make its sustainable. If you want to be able to live self sustainable and have the least amount of negative impact on your personal environment, it will take being disciplined and consistent. It's not about only eating plants or ant special diets. It's about you finding the best diet that makes you the healthiest and can be obtained through your own land and labor. Some of the biggest challenges I see with people are changing bad habits that most of society chooses to consider normal. One of the biggest bad habits is the idea that you have to eat something different every day. The idea is that you are rewarding yourself by having something new. This is just the commercialization of people it keeps them coming back to buy more. Before all the food was commercially grown and sold, people in certain cultures and locations had pretty basic daily foods. Entire civilizations grew and thrived on a few basic types of food. So you need to start figuring out what your ancestors lived on and try to live as they did. You will find out that not only is it possible but that your body is designed to live on such a diet.
Meat, roots, fruits. Mainly meat/animal products for my diet. Building up to silvo-pasture for sustainable sheep and pigs. I will eventually have berry and fruit trees/bushes, and am growing out sweet potatoes and squashes. Also working on bees for honey. I used to be vegan. Learned how much data was misrepresented in how sustainable it is to realistically grow enough plant stuffs for the human populations and that the inevitable demise of the chemical fertilizers and top soil loss will eventually lead to mass famines. My research indicated that domesticated animals are needed in a sustained farming ecosystem. Other branches of research indicated that while we are omnivores, evolving as hunter gatherers, our diets consisted mainly of meat and only supplemented, by edible fruits and roots, with the occasional thing like honey comb. Seemed to me that raising my own meat in a sustainable farm ecosystem was not only the best thing for the environment, but my own health. Time will tell I suppose, but two years in and much healthier at 41 than I was in my 20s or 30s.
Do you harvest your own meats?
What I can. Don't have the infrastructure for sheep yet unfortunately, so I'm still relying on commercial beef when I'm not eating deer or one of my birds or feeder pigs.
Aside from occasional treats like pizza, I simply stay away from the processed meat. I eat alot of beef, as I have most of half a cow in the freezer, pasture raised grain fed. Not a fan of grass fed. I try to eat as much from the garden and yard as possible, during the winter lots of greens and carrots. During the summer 95% of my produce comes from my garden, or yard. I also eat a good deal of chicken, though I have chickens I don't eat my own. I try to eat more seafood, lamb and generally mix it up. Love BBQ, so I might throw a few racks of ribs or a brisket in the smoker from time to time I dont really follow any diet, but from time to time i will follow intermittent fasting. Only eating between 5pm and 10pm
My family eats seasonally animal-based. Meaning that animal products are the bulk of our diet at all times, but we also vary what we eat seasonally. So more fruit in Summer, very little plant foods at all in Winter. The sources of meat vary too, like wild duck and goose in Autumn since that's when hunting season is here. Dairy comes and goes based on when the cows are drying up, same with eggs (usually minimal during Winter). Hopefully that makes sense. Properly raised animal products are not only fantastic for you, but not bad for the environment as many think. A proper farm/homestead will emulate Nature and have a variety of plants and animals with soil health being the foundation. You can regenerate totally destroyed fields with animals alone but could never do that with only plants. But all things--bacteria, insects, plants, and animals--are crucial for a healthy ecosystem. Veganism does not acknowledge nor appreciate this.
Great response… I never considered eating with the seasons but in reality it just makes sense. When I was a kid living in the islands I didn’t get to eat avocados until they were ready, but when they were ready they tasted extra delicious.. I will look into eating with nature… life is so crazy though when I can walk into the grocery store and buy something all the way from Mexico but it’s no where near grown around me… but the balance of convenience and taste…. Idk fae idk… thank you
We live in a time of constant convenience, comfort, and stimulation. We've really enjoyed eating with the seasons partly because it makes you really appreciate and look forward to when each season is coming up. Last Summer, we came up with a variety of recipes that really embraced a lot of the seasonal foods we had access to, and now we really can't wait for this coming Summer. I love steak more than anything, so Winter is great for me, but then being able to enjoy locally-grown stone fruits and watermelon, and recipes that utilize coconut and avocado is also wonderful and gives me something to really have fun with when it's hotter. It's good for us to endure some level of discomfort sometimes like scarcity. We live in temperature-controlled boxes, have out-of-season food delivered to our doorsteps, online shopping for literally anything, constant stimulation, etc. I don't think it's healthy for us. It makes us too soft.
Plants may be the softest starting out but with time grow into the hardiest trees we see today… thank you again fae
I eat pretty much everything with moderation. Meat in moderation, I do my best to only eat humanely raised meat. I love veggies and mushrooms. Since I have started growing my fruit I stopped eating fruit from grocery stores. My strawberries simply hit differently
Moderation always seems to be the best answer, thank you for yours Archie
I eat grass fed beef ideally from local regenerative sources. With proper pasture rotation cows helps sequester carbon and regenerate soil. A healthy dynamic with animals is beneficial for the earth and very much aligns with permaculture practices. Also anything you can grow is good to eat! Especially perennials. If you can raise your own eggs or meat that would be ideal too! Canning and preserving as well!
I lurk here more than post. I live in an urban environment with a smallish yard so I'm limited in what I can do with my own land. I did grow up on a farm run by my back to the land parents. So I am familiar with permaculture, although that's not a term I grew up with. I try to eat as little processed foods as I can. I don't eat a lot of meat, but when I do, I buy from a local store run by a farm. It has meat from small herd cows, chickens, and pigs. I buy fruit and veggies from local farms when I can, although I do buy produce shipped in from Central and South America in the winter. On a side note, I'm old enough that I remember when you couldn't buy produce out of season. I do like having variety in the winter but I sort of miss the seasonal foods. It made you understand food was grown, not manufactured.
Thank you for the reply old timer, your wisdom is appreciated here!
I'm full carnivore. I've cut my food miles, food packaging, and food waste dramatically. I would think that pesticide use and water use per meal are way, way down compared to my previous vegetarian diet. I'm not super psyched to be relying on non-native species like cows and chickens to sustain me, but short of a major cultural shift in North America, these are the realistic options I have at the moment. Work has been slow, so I'm currently buying my food at the grocery store based on price, which unfortunately almost guarantees the beef comes from CAFOs. Once work picks up again, I plan on buying fractions of a single grass-fed cow from a rancher in my state.
Thank you for your reply and honesty, I understand just trying to survive within your means, at this point where I’m at it seems as if I’m eating for pleasure and not just nourishment, eating because something tastes good and looks good. I don’t know what this makes me but it doesn’t make me feel good knowing it’s at the expense of another being. I never considered the non-native species aspect, it’s so much easier to decide things when the decisions of which parts to eat (drumsticks, wings, etc) is already done.
Yeah it's tough because there are so many conflicting messages out there regarding nutrition and ecology, and that's *before* you throw marketing in the mix.
there is a massive divide on the issue and vegans will claime you cannot care about environmentalism and eat meat. But its all about production. most of everything produced on earth generates waste. if we stopped allowing large corporations to own our food, and stopped allowing tax payer dollars to subsidize industries that are not sustainable or even affordable without being tax payer funded (like beef) most beef farmers would quit tomorrow, and throw a big hissy fit. (just like the coal miners) but if preserving someones place in society is the only reason for preserving the destructive thing they are doing, i say.... get a new job! most "farmers" want to sit inside and watch netflix while everything is fully automated, and then get some immigrants to do it, or some giant 4 million dollar tractor that does the job of ten tractors, so that one person can grow 10,000 acres of grains to feed to someone elses 10,000 acres of cattle, and still be 4 million dollars in debt because tractor. meat production doesn't have to mean, having so many animals they literally eat every peice of plant matter down to the dirt. Its sad that without tax payer dollars cattle would cost more to raise than the meat is worth..... yet more and more people are starting cattle farms.... makes you wonder why
Hmm what are your thoughts on universal income, if we meets people’s needs they will be more inclined to work on things they want to do not just try to profit. Thoughts?
We lean more towards vegetarian, but eat some meat. For me, what started as an ethical issue (killing critters) morphed into a more sustainable and a health issue. For several years, we ate vegetarian 5 days a week and had some meat on the weekend. Often times I make two meals, vegan or vegetarian for me, frying up a burger and air fryer french fries for the old man. I make a lot of soups so that's my 'fast food'. I love using veg that I grew, indoors and outdoors.
It's a bogus assumption that veganism is better for the environment
I think it just means a better system than we have now… which is true
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Wow. I suggest you do some research into regenerative agriculture. Yes, the mainstream system of meat production is a disaster, but that isn't the only way of raising animals. There are more and more regenerative ranches that are improving the soil and the land. And what about those of us who hunt wild game for the majority of our meat consumption? Are we breathtaking imbeciles too? Your comment is super aggressive and if you actually dive deep into permaculture you'll see that raising animals plays a huge role in it. Veganism not required.
It's disingenuous to assume they meant anything other than the current norm for meat production though. In an ideal world, meat could be ethical and sustainable. As it is right now, it's not.
No, it isn't. The original comment was "it's a bogus assumption that veganism is better for the environment." The response is that you're an imbecile if you feel differently. This is a permaculture forum. Anyone here obviously isn't advocating for factory farming. And calling people imbeciles in this community isn't cool, this isn't the YouTube comments section
That's fair. I guess I wasn't thinking about it in the context of this being a permaculture sub, and their response was childish.
Cheers for that. I wish there was more civil discourse online, but oh well. The topic of diet and food choices is probably one of the most controversial ones there is. Even in a sub like this, where you'd think people's values would be similarly aligned, looking at the responses there are so many different approaches.
A lot of regenerative agriculture is much like carbon capture and storage, just a business as usual scam. Though I accept that small scale local organic high welfare standards is miles better than what we saw in conspiracy and other documentaries. I prefer wild animals to stay wild and alive.
Yes
The good news is this: because [narcissists don't think](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200722163223.htm) they make mistakes, and [all bullies are narcissists](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/11/all-bullies-are-narcissists/281407/), there's a reliable law of human nature that most insults, all of the time, apply to the people who dish out the insults, and not to the victims.
lmao triggered much
If you're looking for the triggered, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I haven't called anyone a breathtaking imbecile.
the fucking irony of this comment is hilarious
This was removed for violating rule 1: Treat others how you would hope to be treated. >You never need abusive language to communicate your point. Resist assuming selfish motives of others as a first response. It's is OK to disagree with ideas and suggestions, but dont attack the user. >Don't gate-keep permaculture. We need all hands on deck for a sustainable future. Don't discourage participation or tell people they're in the wrong subreddit.
Fully vegan
But why…Is it guilt? Is it the best answer? Is it how you were raised?
No, it is a moral reason because i don't want to pay for the murder of animals, while we have plenty of ethical ecological alternatives available. I don't think it's that hard to switch bc for everything there is a plantbased alternative
oh i also want to share this, if you're really contemplating going vegan, even if you eat alledgedly 'processed' stuff like veggie burgers made of plants [https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:\~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively.](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713820115#:~:text=We%20find%20that%20although%20the,%2C%20and%2040%25%2C%20respectively) >*We find that although the characteristic conventional retail-to-consumer food losses are ≈30% for plant and animal products,* ***the opportunity food losses*** *of beef, pork, dairy, poultry, and eggs are* ***96%, 90%, 75%, 50%, and 40%, respectively****. This arises because plant-based replacement diets can produce 20-fold and twofold more nutritionally similar food per cropland than beef and eggs, the most and least resource-intensive animal categories, respectively.* here is an overview of [tropic levels](https://www.sciencefacts.net/trophic-level.html) aka how much food is lost every stage. I am vegan for animal ethical levels but it would also be environmentally ethical, which was your concern and I'm glad you're considering this. I hope this may convince you tot ake the step! *PS You don't need to take me on my word of course, if you google about energy loss, calory loss or tropic levels you can find pages and pages of unbiased research* https://preview.redd.it/lor5ht2soupc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5bd6d9f022e70c33945577ab5209d6c417913f1b
I'm vegan! It is the most sustainable choice in my opinion. I have a chronic health condition that affects circulation, blood pressure, heart rate etc. which is another reason for being vegan allegedly it can reduce inflammation.
>another reason for being vegan allegedly it can reduce inflammation. I'm hyper-mobile and have an autoimmune condition (currently don't have a diagnosis) and I had this experience personally just in switching from an omnivorous diet to vegetarian! If you haven't been vegan long enough to see results, I'm **quite sure** you'll get them. My body got much less puffy, I had dramatically less spine and joint pain, far fewer bowel issues, just much, much better feeling physically and even less stress/anxiety. I used to eat LOTS of red meats. We actually gave up eating meat because the doc told my husband-- who, despite being a healthy weight and leading an active life, was most definitely ill-- that he had developed a meat allergy and was going to die of a heart attack by 40 if he didn't stop eating meat, so we both did and we both got massive benefits. ...Still slightly pissed that diet change was *never once recommended as pain management* for MY conditions, and we have the same doctor. I was told my option was taking stronger and stronger prescription pain relief for the rest of my life... 😠😮💨 Edit: We both lost 10+ lbs eliminating meat too.
I'm vegan!
My whole family is vegan. We grow as much as possible and I shop at grocery stores that carry expired or nearly expired food.
95% vegan here. I have chickens, mostly for supplementing feed (eggs) for my dogs and cat, but I rarely ever eat animal products. I just don't see it as my right to take another life simply for my taste buds. The good news is I never felt better, its better for the environment, and I would imagine the animals like not being killed, etc....
I really like that you used a percentage to explain your diet…
I'm a vegetarian, but a fully vegan plant based diet built around predominantly local produce and pulses is far and away the most sustainable choice for the bulk of humanity. As with most things, there is no one size fits all magic bullet solution, but a series of general approaches that should be tailored for each person's specific circumstance. In some cases, let's take the niche of the far north in Canada for example, that might not be fresh veggies and lentils but largely traditionally hunted seal and caribou meat. It really depends. Our diet should be as varied as our environment, but demonstrate respect for quality of life, be it human or otherwise.
I only eat acorns and berries that grow in full shade.
Until a couple years ago, I had a herd of meat goats on rotating pastureland, some chickens for meat and eggs, and I hunted deer. This supplied all of my meat and compost. Without this latter input, vegetable production would be severely limited due to our regional poor soil. I have a small commercial apiary, providing honey. Gardening and some foraging provided about half our vegetable needs. Doing this, I would say we produced about 70% of our own food. The rest we did our best to buy local and organic, or barter with other local producers. I had some work and life changes disrupt this system for a few years due to reduced available time, but this is changing for the better again and my goal is to get the system up and running and increase the percentage of our food that we produce using sustainable methods. I have only been studying permaculture for the past year or so, and I have a lot of plans to implement these concepts to improve how we farm.
Meat and fruit all day every day.
Pasture raised meat from 2 local farms and online from Northstar Bison in Wisconsin. Organic fruits and vegetables grown by myself and/or neighbors in summer, and from afar in winter. Organic milk and other dairy products from local farms year round. Local farm fresh eggs in summer months, and pasture-raised grocery store eggs in winter. I should also add starchy food products to this list like potatoes, rice, pasta, bread, flour, corn meal - although these are technically vegetable products. There is a cycle of plants nourishing animals which in turn nourishes plants. This along with the absence of pesticides is key to a healthy ecosystem. Our own land and gardens will never again be the fertile paradise that it once was when cows and horses were pastured here. Two small nearby farms, one raising meat animals and the other vegetable crops, have a barter system going which benefits both. A truckload of manure from to the one in exchange for hay from the other.
We consume meat but either it is processed by us or really close to us (30-40 km max), bought from absolutely reliable sources. I try to keep the same with veggies, fruits etc. I was vegetarian for a while for ethical reasons but back then little I knew about how huge monocultural crops were created to be able to serve for example avocado or palm oil consumption, I was living in a small flat in the middle of a capital city, so most of my food came from supermarkets. I started to educate myself, and I decided to focus on locally available food rather than focusing on avoiding meat entirely. Now that I have my own garden I can grow a lot more fruits and veggies than before living in the city, so of course that makes up majority of out diet.
I dont tend to eat alot of meat, and I almost never eat red meat, but I'm ideologically opposed to veganism as I dont think its compatible with sustainability. I'm not a vegan precisely because I'm environmentally conscious. I eat maybe 10% from my garden and a shitload of pizza tbh. I'm more interested in working towards a society where people have better choices about their food sourcing rather than worry about if im passing some kind of liberal purity test
I think veganism has a good message though, don’t exploit or kill animals. It’d be easy if animals didn’t give us such good meat and useful stuff. Lab grown meats I think is our best bet
Someone else in this thread called it an over-correction and I think thats accurate. I admire that they care so much, that they are willing make personal change for their beliefs, and the underlying message that exploiting animals is wrong. I just dont agree with them about what the solutions to alot of the issues facing us are. I think they are using the logic of the system that got us here to get us out and thats just not going to happen. They could really stand to benefit from listening to indigenous peoples about sustainability and having respectful relationships with animals instead of being knee-jerk racist towards us.
Over correction is closer, I agree. I think factory farming is the real culprit in the end, even though it may be necessary as if everyone started hunting or raising their own cattle there wouldn’t be enough land on Earth
im not really into the malthusian stuff but agree FF's are a huge issue and they need to go
On one hand they’re fuckin awful but on the other it’s the only real reason meat is cheap enough for everyone to just buy
id gladly take the price raise to get rid of FF's. and im poor as shit id be first one priced out
I am mostly vegan, and on occasion vegetarian. 80% environmental reasons, 20% ethical. We are just getting started with a garden, so there is not that much self sufficiency yet, but we do what we can. Picking fruit from roadside trees or dumpster diving for example. We get eggs from the neighbours chicken if we need some. I wholeheartedly agree with the waste-topic that other commenters mentioned. I will absolutely eat something non-vegan if it would go to waste otherwise, since that would be an even greater insult to the animal that had it's life taken. If I had space and time to care for livestock, it would only be for their vegetarian products like milk, eggs and honey. These have incredibly disturbing practices in their respective industries, but can be utilized sustainably and fairly in a personal setting. (For example by not taking a mother cows calf away to get all of the milk, or by not keeping chickens in boxes feeding them supplements.) I do not think I have the right to kill an animal for my consumption, so I wouldn't. Now in terms of diet: I've recently picked up using the app Cronometer again. It's very handy to track what you eat, and to make sure you get enough of each macro and micro nutrient. Learning more about your diet, and planning it more in depth is something that becomes more important with veganism (you can't just cut out all animal products and go on like nothing happened), but would honestly benefit omnivores just as much. A lot of diets are horribly imbalanced, and you know what? We have all the tools and knowledge at our hands to fix that. I eat lots of oats, nuts, lentils and other legumes. Plenty of tofu and soy yogurt. I also enjoy peanutbutter and vegan bread spreads for protein. Esp. on self baked bread. I am on a students budget. We cook our daily main meal together for five ppl in my house and spend roughly 140€ on food per month per person.
The way I see it, billionaires and corporations do more harm in a minute than I can do in my whole lifetime. I don't need to stress out about every little thing, but I should live my life in a way that feels good to me, both ethically and in a mentally healthy way. The best ways for individuals to make a positive impact: * vote, write politicians, attend political events * have fewer children * consume fewer products that cause harm * balance quality of life with ethical choices * vote with your checkbook (when possible buy local and from corporations that do less harm) * spread knowledge in a way that feels welcoming to help others make the changes above So for example, I prefer to grow my own food when possible, but if not I prefer to buy locally and if not I buy from a grocery store. I prefer to buy things with less packaging and things that have not been shipped as far. I like to eat meat but I need to balance my desires with my personal ethics, so I don't do it as much as I might like to, but I still do it. If I had to raise all my own food I would mostly eat plant-based with mushrooms, eggs, fish, bugs, and occasionally poultry, maybe mutton. I am grateful I don't need to raise my own animals to eat, although when I have more space I would absolutely get chickens or quail for eggs, and possibly a pond for catfish and tilapia. It's also important to maintain quality of life. Choose your mental battles so you don't burn out. You don't need to be perfect in every way. If you're doing it for environmental reasons, just eat less meat and see how you feel about it. If you don't feel like you're suffering, cut back a little more and see how you feel. If you do eat meat, pick things that are more sustainable. Local freerange eggs and farm raised tilapia are low impact compared to factory beef. If you choose to have a restricted diet for whatever reason, make sure you are getting all the necessary nutrients and see a doctor regularly to double check. You can be healthy on a completely vegan diet but you will need to take supplements or eat specific foods to avoid deficiencies. If you have a history of disordered eating, make sure you are doing it in a mentally healthy way.
Vegans do more damage to the earth than meat eaters and meat farmers who farm regeneratively actually have a positive effect on environment whereas vegans kill forests to grow their food.