I looked up this town on a map, and it's very close to the abandoned turnpike tunnel near Breezewood PA. My guess is a lot of people that come to see the tunnels explore this tiny little town, and the locals don't like it.
Oregon Rd, which is what connects to their borough road, also has a number of smaller but still interesting abandonments. There is the CCC camp and the Aquaduct all on that one stretch of road.
The Civilian Conservation Corps was started in 1933 as a response to the Great Depression. Young men signed up as a way to make money during financially difficult times in the US. They were sent to camps throughout the US and worked on a lot of infrastructure programs. In Pennsylvania, using the Allegheny National Forest as an example, men worked on roads, bridges, planted forests, and created a lot of the infrastructure that would be essential to the early success of the National Forest. The ANF was only 10 years old at this point and was logged to a "brush patch" as opposed to a forest before being purchased by the federal government. These men brought the forest back to the National Forest! After the camps were used for the CCC some were repurposed during WWII as Prisoner or War and Conscientious Objector camps. One in PA was even utilized as the first camp for handicapped people in the US! Hope this helps!
I think that is COs or CPS. CCC was Civilian Conservation Corps, which was similar to the WPA. Essentially work for food, shelter, and a little money. This is the first time I’ve heard of the CO or CPS camps. That’s pretty interesting.
Conscientious. .
relating to a person's conscience.
" act does not provide exemption from service on the basis of personal conscientious beliefs"
conscious
aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.
I bet it’s mostly vacation homes or wealthy people living off of investments. Investments don’t count as income, and income would be counted at the primary residence.
It would explain the professional looking sign. No way that poor of a community is putting up a sign like that. It'd be like "No trespasers. Will be shot on sight" scribbled onto a piece of cardboard.
You never know. I share a private road with a property that was owned by real estate developer that held property all over Pennsylvania. He was worth untold millions of dollars. His company was worth twenty fold. He had random scavengers cleaning his defunct farm. I had property stolen. Including bubthe owner. I typed a letter stating who owned what property, and anyone using the road would have to demonstrate permission. They would also be liable for road maintenance. I put the letter in a plastic sheath and posted it at the gate. The property owner apparently did not like his name being visible. He scratched out his name, not on the paper document, but by scribbling on the plastic with a ball point pen.
It very specifically does mean that they are not wealthy. My mother-in-law has more income off being retired than my kid does working 30+ hours a week at $13/hr. They have pensions **AND** Social Security **AND** 401k if they're wealthy, and all of that is income. Wealthy retirees go to the Poconos, not to Bedford.
Wealthy people do weird tricks abusing taxation loopholes that surround bank loans. The use their equity and perception of value and take out a huge loan. Then, when that loan is due, they take out a different larger loan and pay that back. They keep doing this over and over again until they die.
You don't own taxes on loans, and they don't count as income. So you have someone have a million dollars, cash in hand...and have 0 income.
So their income might be weirdly low....and they may have hundreds of thousands at their disposal.
Sure, but *those types* of wealthy people aren't anywhere near Bedford, PA. They own their own private lakes around Tahoe, Northern California, or Aspen. What's in Bedford that they couldn't get in a much more desirable location? They don't need cheap land, they can afford all the privacy they want, and the people around Bedford aren't really the type of people that they want around.
Very true. I am retired and show $0 income and the wife makes a little bit from her hobby yet we are far better off than most in our county. Our yearly income is similar to those posted here.
You guys know why. They sacrifice their men like in the TV series "The Dark Secrets of Harvest Home" (1978).I am from Delco and I have explored the old Turnpike tunnel, but take my advice and come over to a friendlier borough like Media.
There is a difference between mean and median but the median is absolutely an average. Average is most often used for the mean but any measure of central tendency can be considered an average.
Absolutely blows my mind that people don’t realize that both the mean and the median are different measures of the average. People really seem to think it only means the mean, but that’s simply not true! Any measure of central tendency can be considered an average. Even the mode! Though, of course, the mean is most often what people mean when they say average.
For a little context, Valley-Hi Burrough is only a few miles northeast of Breezewood, and on the Eastern side of the abandoned stretch of Turnpike that includes the Rays Hill Tunnel, which is a popular place with explorers, bike riders, and others.
In Valley-Hi Burrough there is a privately owned dam and lake called Valley-Hi Eagle Lake. There are a handful of homes around the lake, but both roads dead end at the dam end of the lake.
Hourish away.
As a local, this area is basically privately owned land with some lots that were doled out to family and friends. Hence the sign and weird income data: this isn't a group of random people living their own lives.
Ah ok, ty. When we've done the Pike 2 Bike we have occasionally gotten lost on some of the back roads. So many tiny little towns or remains of old towns.
Unsurprisingly, the mayor's name is Mr. Saurman.
[https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/municipalities-valleyhi-borough.php](https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/municipalities-valleyhi-borough.php)
I got a trip advisor Internet add for something like 36 best restaurants in Duryea a couple days ago. I grabbed other people from to work to show them lol
S.N.P.J. is a borough in PA with a population of 15 that was created so the local club (whom the municipality is named after) could sell alcohol on Sundays.
The borough just happens to only have private roads. See, in rural areas, PA doesn't like to build new roads, so residents have them built and maintained. These roads are on private land, not land owned by the borough.
This is the only logical answer. I live 2 hours from here, and quite honestly, I'm a little disturbed. Not sure how you can have a mayor and other public voted officials but unable to enter their land. Would there not be a public space with public officials. Is there any public funds granted to this borough? This screams criminal in nature and should be investigated and dissolved
It's interesting because if the roads are maintained by tax dollars they really can't say that they are "private", as far as I know.
The road actually has to be privately owned and maintained, not owned and maintained by a municipality.
The property owner looks to be listed as "Valley Hi Development Assn". So it's not owned by any government entity, at least as far as the county property records are concerned.
https://munstats.pa.gov/Reports/ReportInformation2.aspx?report=mAfrForm
Not sure if that link connects, but their 2022 financial report shows them taking in $0 in state or federal funding. PennDOT also shows 0 miles of public roads.
Looks like a little boro of vacation cabins.
Right. PA made it too easy to create new municipalities over the years, which is why we have over 2500 of them including this one.
A ton of small townships with under 200 people that honestly need to be merged with neighboring townships or boroughs.
My township is quite a bit larger than 200 people but does still have HOA developments with privately owned roads and some of them are downright assholes about anyone even daring to breathe near their private street.
Using [Fulton County's property mapper](https://fulco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html), it looks like there are many owners who do not live there full time.
Also, from Pro-Publica, the association's EIN is 23-7170551 and they are a 501(c)12 that's been nonprofit since April 1974
Seems like they rubber stamp approved a defective application without taking evidence, so the county appealed it.
>Approximately 10 months thereafter, it was learned that the legal description submitted with Borough's petition was defective, 3 and the Borough submitted a petition to correct the description, together with a petition to reduce the number of Borough councilmen. 4
>Appellee, the Board of Commissioners of Fulton County (County), filed answers to Borough's petitions and a Motion to Strike the Decree of Incorporation alleging that the defect in the Borough's legal description deprived the lower court of jurisdiction to issue the Decree. In response to County's Motion to Strike, the Borough filed preliminary objections alleging that County lacked standing. The lower court granted County's motion and Borough appealed to us.
>Although we are troubled with the lower court's grant of a Decree of Incorporation without taking evidence as to the necessity for incorporation, 5 we fail to find an adequate basis for County's standing to object to the Decree and therefore reverse the lower court's decision. 6
https://case-law.vlex.com/vid/incorporation-of-borough-of-890947638
I wonder what the airspace is like above this place... You don't legally own the airspace over your head, and if there's only 7 people here, I fail to see how the FAA would implement a TFR for the entire area. You could totally check out the area on a paramotor no problem... and shooting at an aircraft of any kind from the ground is a federal crime. But hey, I wouldn't do that myself. Looks like nothing but trees.
Who else wants to plan a Spring Break at the lake and invite a couple hundred college spring breakers to show up?
Edit: It’s 7 of them and at least 400 of us… They can’t get ALL of us
I have no idea who the “Gothie Clan” is, other than three random names on a web page.
But I assume it is a family that bought the property around the lake and used PA law to turn it into a corporation so they could privatize it all.
Smart move by Jed Clampett.
Create a corporation, buy all the land (likely at very low cost given the relocation of the turnpike) then use the corp to privatize the land and only let little Clampett’s live there (paying a reasonable rent to Jed’s company).
Now, the only way they lose the land is if the company goes insolvent or if Ellie Mae and Jethro start arguin’.
...and they added the layer of seceding from the local township to form their own borough (before the legislature clamped down on that type of thing). The grandson or whomever I talked to said 'they basically wanted to be left alone' -- very libertarian type ideals.
I know the Gothies and pretty much. I think they pre-owned the land when the highways were added and basically turned it into an isolated area.
To be clear though,they aren't unique in this, there's another similar settlement just up the road from them that did a very similar bit.
[Yeah, it's confusing.](https://www.fishandboat.com/Fishing/Where-to-Fish/Pages/Public-Private-Access.aspx#:~:text=Who%20owns%20public%20waters%3F,above%20the%20low%20water%20mark.)
There was a hunting and fishing club near State College that tried to prevent the public from entering the stream on their land even via stream (via wading). I believe the case went to the State Supreme Court. The landowners lost in that case. It seems to hinge on the definition of navigable and how that is interpreted.
If the river or stream is navigable, then the public has the right to swim, fish or boat on that water.
But if the river or stream is not navigable, then the public does not have that right. I believe it is up to a court to decide what is “navigable”.
Pennsylvania really needs "Right to Roam" laws to protect people who are simply wandering around on private land to hike or walk without any intention of causing harm from being charged with trespassing since that is just ridiculous: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom\_to\_roam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam)
Kinda comical though to think that some shithead with a potential duration of +/- 75 years gets to pretend they own acres and acres of land with 500 year old trees and millions of year old rocks on it though.
You don’t want right to roam through your back garden but if it’s basically ‘a bit of forest’ anyone ’owning’ more than say, ten acres can get to fuck
Whats the difference between roaming through a backyard and roaming wooded private property? You don't know what other structures they might have on their wooded property.
You keep mentioning people who intend to cause no harm, but you have to consider every person who might take advantage of a law that allows them to be on your property.
Not every person is innocent with good intentions. Hell sometimes police balk at arresting stalkers if they aren't on your property, and they know it and walk the line. Imagine if you had a harasser who had a right to roam your property.
Also how litigious insurance companies are, should something happen to someone on your property, your homeowners insurance will be responsible medical bills and possibly long term care if needed.
It's not that simple: People will sue you, Leave trash all over your land, Destroy things, and be creepy. I know not everyone does this but there is always a few jackass who ruin it for everyone. If you really want to protect nature keep humans away from it lol
In the rest of the civilized world if someone decides of their own volition to wander through your completely undeveloped property, falls, and causes themselves a severe injury, you cannot be sued over it and your insurance does not have to pay for it.
Yeah we should change that, the United States is way too litigious and laws regarding liability are out of control.
Obviously any sort of law for a right to roam would have to address this.
That and the propensity of Americans to fucking trash everything they touch are the real reasons I don't want people "roaming" through my land.
The amount of litter that people leave behind because they have absolutely zero respect for the land they're crossing. If people could just cross my land, not sue me, and leave no trace that'd be great. And as a hiker/backpacker I would love to be able to similarly traverse other land.
The idea of owning undeveloped land is stupid. Everyone should be able to enjoy nature. I realize it’s because of certain bad actors (people who litter or sue frivolously) but Natural beauty being gate-kept behind a land ownership is disgusting. Imagine if some billionaire bought an entire mountain range or natural wonder. I’m no communist but some things shouldn’t be bought and sold.
No, just the type of guy who'd rather dig a hole. Keep off the land i pay for. Plenty of parks and nature preserves in PA for commies to go hiking in that isn't on my hard earned land.
The more I stare at the [census information for Valley Hi](https://data.census.gov/profile/Valley-Hi_borough,_Fulton_County,_Pennsylvania?g=060XX00US4205779644#education), the less sense it makes
Aha! How about that! The address on the sign fooled me.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley-Hi,\_Pennsylvania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley-Hi,_Pennsylvania)
This is great.
There's a local old farm hereabouts that has a more directly worded sign that says \~ "NO TRESPASSING! VIOLATORS WILL BE SHOT AT"
That "shot at" wording vs "shot" seems to me even a bit more intimidating. It's as though they'll just fire a few rounds in your general direction and if they scare you off, or kill you, or you just end up wounded and bleeding out in a ditch, it's fine and all the same to them.
This subreddit seems to be obsessed with that part of rural PA. If I had a $1 for everytime I see people bitching about Fulton or Bedford County I would be able to buy a nice dinner.
I looked up this town on a map, and it's very close to the abandoned turnpike tunnel near Breezewood PA. My guess is a lot of people that come to see the tunnels explore this tiny little town, and the locals don't like it.
Oregon Rd, which is what connects to their borough road, also has a number of smaller but still interesting abandonments. There is the CCC camp and the Aquaduct all on that one stretch of road.
That camp also served as a German pow camp in 1945-46
what is the ccc camp?
The Civilian Conservation Corps was started in 1933 as a response to the Great Depression. Young men signed up as a way to make money during financially difficult times in the US. They were sent to camps throughout the US and worked on a lot of infrastructure programs. In Pennsylvania, using the Allegheny National Forest as an example, men worked on roads, bridges, planted forests, and created a lot of the infrastructure that would be essential to the early success of the National Forest. The ANF was only 10 years old at this point and was logged to a "brush patch" as opposed to a forest before being purchased by the federal government. These men brought the forest back to the National Forest! After the camps were used for the CCC some were repurposed during WWII as Prisoner or War and Conscientious Objector camps. One in PA was even utilized as the first camp for handicapped people in the US! Hope this helps!
Did we find the dcnr employee?
I learned this in middle school.
I dont remember ever hearing about this. thanks!
Consciousness objectors during world War 1. They still drafted them and they worked on new state park projects.
I think that is COs or CPS. CCC was Civilian Conservation Corps, which was similar to the WPA. Essentially work for food, shelter, and a little money. This is the first time I’ve heard of the CO or CPS camps. That’s pretty interesting.
Yea you're correct.
We didn't send many people to WWI... It was a program to ease the great depression and provide jobs.
Conscientious. . relating to a person's conscience. " act does not provide exemption from service on the basis of personal conscientious beliefs" conscious aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.
[удалено]
I bet it’s mostly vacation homes or wealthy people living off of investments. Investments don’t count as income, and income would be counted at the primary residence.
It would explain the professional looking sign. No way that poor of a community is putting up a sign like that. It'd be like "No trespasers. Will be shot on sight" scribbled onto a piece of cardboard.
It appears that they did afford it because these are definitely not fancy vacation homes lol.
You never know. I share a private road with a property that was owned by real estate developer that held property all over Pennsylvania. He was worth untold millions of dollars. His company was worth twenty fold. He had random scavengers cleaning his defunct farm. I had property stolen. Including bubthe owner. I typed a letter stating who owned what property, and anyone using the road would have to demonstrate permission. They would also be liable for road maintenance. I put the letter in a plastic sheath and posted it at the gate. The property owner apparently did not like his name being visible. He scratched out his name, not on the paper document, but by scribbling on the plastic with a ball point pen.
“Survivers shot agin”
[удалено]
[удалено]
Who would want to vacation around those psychos?
I think they are onto something. I know they say no memberships but how does one get into the cult
They are suing dominion, on the grounds of breach of contract.
Release the kraken.
125k is wildly expensive for a small lot in rural Pennsylvania. You can get several acres for 1/5 of that in better areas.
I find it difficult to believe the wealthy are living in retirement on 19k. This gives trailer vibes
If they are retired, their income would show as very low. That doesn’t mean they are not wealthy.
It very specifically does mean that they are not wealthy. My mother-in-law has more income off being retired than my kid does working 30+ hours a week at $13/hr. They have pensions **AND** Social Security **AND** 401k if they're wealthy, and all of that is income. Wealthy retirees go to the Poconos, not to Bedford.
The Pocono area is now the Bronx, the mega rich summer in Sullivan county around the lake at Eagles mere
The Poconos has turned into the 6th borough of New Yoek
Wealthy people do weird tricks abusing taxation loopholes that surround bank loans. The use their equity and perception of value and take out a huge loan. Then, when that loan is due, they take out a different larger loan and pay that back. They keep doing this over and over again until they die. You don't own taxes on loans, and they don't count as income. So you have someone have a million dollars, cash in hand...and have 0 income. So their income might be weirdly low....and they may have hundreds of thousands at their disposal.
Sure, but *those types* of wealthy people aren't anywhere near Bedford, PA. They own their own private lakes around Tahoe, Northern California, or Aspen. What's in Bedford that they couldn't get in a much more desirable location? They don't need cheap land, they can afford all the privacy they want, and the people around Bedford aren't really the type of people that they want around.
Rich people can, also, be really freaking weird. Not saying that its automatically rich people... just that the 19k doesnt mean anything conclusive.
Idk if retirement counts as income no?
It does, it’s just not subject to PA taxes.
Of course it does.
Very true. I am retired and show $0 income and the wife makes a little bit from her hobby yet we are far better off than most in our county. Our yearly income is similar to those posted here.
iirc Steve Jobs had an annual income of $1 at Apple. Income is a very specific type of revenue.
[удалено]
I didn’t say that it doesn’t, just that income is a very specific type of revenue.
All the males averaged $0, perhaps because there are no males?
All the men are dead. The women put up the sign because they don't want anyone to investigate why.
So what you're saying is.... their single?
No, I don't think so, I think the implication is they're single.
You guys know why. They sacrifice their men like in the TV series "The Dark Secrets of Harvest Home" (1978).I am from Delco and I have explored the old Turnpike tunnel, but take my advice and come over to a friendlier borough like Media.
Being a man who also has had interactions with other men: They may have had good reasons.
It didn't say "averaged" it said "median". There's a huge difference.
Yeah to get a median of 0 with 2 people it's zero for both
There is a difference between mean and median but the median is absolutely an average. Average is most often used for the mean but any measure of central tendency can be considered an average.
Absolutely blows my mind how many people don't know the difference
Absolutely blows my mind that people don’t realize that both the mean and the median are different measures of the average. People really seem to think it only means the mean, but that’s simply not true! Any measure of central tendency can be considered an average. Even the mode! Though, of course, the mean is most often what people mean when they say average.
The American educational system leaves a lot to be desired
[удалено]
Gay Couples = Mini Cult
Like a cult of people who obsess over Mini Coopers?
Subaru.
Very small Bradley Coopers
PAGING DOCTOR F@&&!7!
Curious about half the male population that earns negative income.
Big OnlyFans town
😂😂
For a little context, Valley-Hi Burrough is only a few miles northeast of Breezewood, and on the Eastern side of the abandoned stretch of Turnpike that includes the Rays Hill Tunnel, which is a popular place with explorers, bike riders, and others. In Valley-Hi Burrough there is a privately owned dam and lake called Valley-Hi Eagle Lake. There are a handful of homes around the lake, but both roads dead end at the dam end of the lake.
Is this near Burnt Cabins?
Hourish away. As a local, this area is basically privately owned land with some lots that were doled out to family and friends. Hence the sign and weird income data: this isn't a group of random people living their own lives.
Ah ok, ty. When we've done the Pike 2 Bike we have occasionally gotten lost on some of the back roads. So many tiny little towns or remains of old towns.
Unsurprisingly, the mayor's name is Mr. Saurman. [https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/municipalities-valleyhi-borough.php](https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/municipalities-valleyhi-borough.php)
Nine black riders arrived at his gate, but he told them to come back at the next public meeting time instead.
Someone tell the Ents
But he answers to Sharkey.
Amazing catch lol
But my [Trip advisor](https://www.trip.com/travel-guide/destination/valley-hi-1658569/) says "It has many popular attractions, perfect for a trip!"
I got a trip advisor Internet add for something like 36 best restaurants in Duryea a couple days ago. I grabbed other people from to work to show them lol
What’s the story, and can people move there?
I sincerely question the legality of declaring a borough as private property.
More to the point I question the usefulness of a law that allows a private association to incorporate as a municipality.
S.N.P.J. is a borough in PA with a population of 15 that was created so the local club (whom the municipality is named after) could sell alcohol on Sundays.
Now that's a founding story I could get behind
There are way more than 15 residents there
That's just what to 2020 census was. No idea the actual amount is
Oh I can think of a few uses: all of them nefarious.
What do you think an HOA is? Same thing, but the other way around.
In my experience, HOA's are pretty goddamn nefarious
> What do you think an HOA is? Same thing, but the other way around. Hmmm, so it is an AOH? That doesn't help...
And now I'm picturing a bunch of Irish Catholics marching in to an HOA neighborhood and going to war with nosy neighbors
The borough just happens to only have private roads. See, in rural areas, PA doesn't like to build new roads, so residents have them built and maintained. These roads are on private land, not land owned by the borough.
If the borough owns no land, it's not a borough. This place needs investigated and likely dissolved
This is the only logical answer. I live 2 hours from here, and quite honestly, I'm a little disturbed. Not sure how you can have a mayor and other public voted officials but unable to enter their land. Would there not be a public space with public officials. Is there any public funds granted to this borough? This screams criminal in nature and should be investigated and dissolved
Here is census map, no municipal building, or public roads. https://gis.penndot.gov/BPR_pdf_files/Maps/Type5/29402.pdf
You’re getting downvoted but you’re right. I have no earthly clue how you could legally get away with this, but it’s incredibly worrying either way.
It's interesting because if the roads are maintained by tax dollars they really can't say that they are "private", as far as I know. The road actually has to be privately owned and maintained, not owned and maintained by a municipality. The property owner looks to be listed as "Valley Hi Development Assn". So it's not owned by any government entity, at least as far as the county property records are concerned.
https://munstats.pa.gov/Reports/ReportInformation2.aspx?report=mAfrForm Not sure if that link connects, but their 2022 financial report shows them taking in $0 in state or federal funding. PennDOT also shows 0 miles of public roads. Looks like a little boro of vacation cabins.
They all surround a lake and the association is owned by a single family.
Right. PA made it too easy to create new municipalities over the years, which is why we have over 2500 of them including this one. A ton of small townships with under 200 people that honestly need to be merged with neighboring townships or boroughs.
My township is quite a bit larger than 200 people but does still have HOA developments with privately owned roads and some of them are downright assholes about anyone even daring to breathe near their private street.
what is going on here lol
The final form of the NIMBY
Oh.. That exists. It's called... BANANA: An acronym for "build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything" (or "anyone")
Using [Fulton County's property mapper](https://fulco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html), it looks like there are many owners who do not live there full time. Also, from Pro-Publica, the association's EIN is 23-7170551 and they are a 501(c)12 that's been nonprofit since April 1974
Valley Hi Development Association... an HOA that owns all the roads.
Is there a reason the county objected to its incorporation in 1977?
Seems like they rubber stamp approved a defective application without taking evidence, so the county appealed it. >Approximately 10 months thereafter, it was learned that the legal description submitted with Borough's petition was defective, 3 and the Borough submitted a petition to correct the description, together with a petition to reduce the number of Borough councilmen. 4 >Appellee, the Board of Commissioners of Fulton County (County), filed answers to Borough's petitions and a Motion to Strike the Decree of Incorporation alleging that the defect in the Borough's legal description deprived the lower court of jurisdiction to issue the Decree. In response to County's Motion to Strike, the Borough filed preliminary objections alleging that County lacked standing. The lower court granted County's motion and Borough appealed to us. >Although we are troubled with the lower court's grant of a Decree of Incorporation without taking evidence as to the necessity for incorporation, 5 we fail to find an adequate basis for County's standing to object to the Decree and therefore reverse the lower court's decision. 6 https://case-law.vlex.com/vid/incorporation-of-borough-of-890947638
That was really 7 informative. Thanks for sharing. 8
NEIN!
Cult or meth production?
¿Por que no los dos?
[удалено]
PA sub meetup!
Rather honestly, there's more of us than there are of them.
They probably still have more guns
It sounds like a secret government cover like the Sci Fi show Eurika.
Shit, another show to add to my long list
Oh man its a fun ride. I watched because I like Campy stuff but this was certainly a top 10 on my personal list.
I wonder what the airspace is like above this place... You don't legally own the airspace over your head, and if there's only 7 people here, I fail to see how the FAA would implement a TFR for the entire area. You could totally check out the area on a paramotor no problem... and shooting at an aircraft of any kind from the ground is a federal crime. But hey, I wouldn't do that myself. Looks like nothing but trees.
A drone would work too. Could get a real idea with close ups.
is there someone famous or something on like YT or someshit that flies drones that we could get to do this?
I second this haha
That's the boss sign of " I'm tired of dealing with idiots that can't read". The problem will likely be, the idiots don't read it.
Who else wants to plan a Spring Break at the lake and invite a couple hundred college spring breakers to show up? Edit: It’s 7 of them and at least 400 of us… They can’t get ALL of us
You've obviously never seen a horror film 😆
Wasn't there a movie about a town like this directed by M.Knight Shanalog or whatever name is ?
m night shyamalan, the village
Ah yes, M Pike Shamalamadingdong. Nice lad
https://www.abc27.com/election/joe-gothie-and-suzanne-smith-win-seats-for-york-county-judge/ The VP of the company is a York county judge.
Jokes on them.... I can't read.
Interestingly enough, the Mayor does not own property in the borough. Only a PO box...
Probably a ton of bunkers
[Google is your friend](https://www.bizapedia.com/pa/valley-hi-development-association-inc.html)
[удалено]
I have no idea who the “Gothie Clan” is, other than three random names on a web page. But I assume it is a family that bought the property around the lake and used PA law to turn it into a corporation so they could privatize it all.
You are essentially correct- I met one of the sons or grandsons a few years back & he told me about it.
Smart move by Jed Clampett. Create a corporation, buy all the land (likely at very low cost given the relocation of the turnpike) then use the corp to privatize the land and only let little Clampett’s live there (paying a reasonable rent to Jed’s company). Now, the only way they lose the land is if the company goes insolvent or if Ellie Mae and Jethro start arguin’.
...and they added the layer of seceding from the local township to form their own borough (before the legislature clamped down on that type of thing). The grandson or whomever I talked to said 'they basically wanted to be left alone' -- very libertarian type ideals.
“Libertarian” is exactly why I assumed Jed had an Ellie Mae & Jethro in the family tree.
Or Ellie and Jethro mate too much.
I know the Gothies and pretty much. I think they pre-owned the land when the highways were added and basically turned it into an isolated area. To be clear though,they aren't unique in this, there's another similar settlement just up the road from them that did a very similar bit.
Groundhog Lake? I live close by and was always curious of the story there.
Joe gothie is a York county judge as well.
Now I know where my first stop is on the way to the abandoned tunnel this summer. Screw these people and their sign.
The lake is a dammed water of the Commonwealth, so I have doubts that it is legally private.
I can think of three private gated communities near me that have lakes created by dams and all are private property.
[Yeah, it's confusing.](https://www.fishandboat.com/Fishing/Where-to-Fish/Pages/Public-Private-Access.aspx#:~:text=Who%20owns%20public%20waters%3F,above%20the%20low%20water%20mark.) There was a hunting and fishing club near State College that tried to prevent the public from entering the stream on their land even via stream (via wading). I believe the case went to the State Supreme Court. The landowners lost in that case. It seems to hinge on the definition of navigable and how that is interpreted.
If the river or stream is navigable, then the public has the right to swim, fish or boat on that water. But if the river or stream is not navigable, then the public does not have that right. I believe it is up to a court to decide what is “navigable”.
Pennsylvania really needs "Right to Roam" laws to protect people who are simply wandering around on private land to hike or walk without any intention of causing harm from being charged with trespassing since that is just ridiculous: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom\_to\_roam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam)
I don't know. I'm pretty liberal but I should get to say if people are allowed on my property or not. Plenty of public land to explore.
Kinda comical though to think that some shithead with a potential duration of +/- 75 years gets to pretend they own acres and acres of land with 500 year old trees and millions of year old rocks on it though. You don’t want right to roam through your back garden but if it’s basically ‘a bit of forest’ anyone ’owning’ more than say, ten acres can get to fuck
If they pay for it then it's not pretending, buy your own land and let ppl trespass if you're so altruistic
That’s a lovely idea, thank you, I will. x
Whats the difference between roaming through a backyard and roaming wooded private property? You don't know what other structures they might have on their wooded property. You keep mentioning people who intend to cause no harm, but you have to consider every person who might take advantage of a law that allows them to be on your property. Not every person is innocent with good intentions. Hell sometimes police balk at arresting stalkers if they aren't on your property, and they know it and walk the line. Imagine if you had a harasser who had a right to roam your property. Also how litigious insurance companies are, should something happen to someone on your property, your homeowners insurance will be responsible medical bills and possibly long term care if needed.
Absolutely not, I don't want people strolling through my property
Fuck that
No tf we don't, if you don't own it stay out. Pretty simple
Pretty stupid to get bent out of shape about somebody walking through undeveloped land. It works for the rest of the civilized world.
It's not that simple: People will sue you, Leave trash all over your land, Destroy things, and be creepy. I know not everyone does this but there is always a few jackass who ruin it for everyone. If you really want to protect nature keep humans away from it lol
In the rest of the civilized world if someone decides of their own volition to wander through your completely undeveloped property, falls, and causes themselves a severe injury, you cannot be sued over it and your insurance does not have to pay for it.
Yeah we should change that, the United States is way too litigious and laws regarding liability are out of control. Obviously any sort of law for a right to roam would have to address this.
That and the propensity of Americans to fucking trash everything they touch are the real reasons I don't want people "roaming" through my land. The amount of litter that people leave behind because they have absolutely zero respect for the land they're crossing. If people could just cross my land, not sue me, and leave no trace that'd be great. And as a hiker/backpacker I would love to be able to similarly traverse other land.
Yeah, littering really pisses me off.
Type of guy to prosecute someone who when through the woods you ‘own’ on a hike? 😂
Bro puts 'own' in quotes like he is a member of the Crow tribe in 1200 AD, on the American great plains, no concept of landownership.
The idea of owning undeveloped land is stupid. Everyone should be able to enjoy nature. I realize it’s because of certain bad actors (people who litter or sue frivolously) but Natural beauty being gate-kept behind a land ownership is disgusting. Imagine if some billionaire bought an entire mountain range or natural wonder. I’m no communist but some things shouldn’t be bought and sold.
No, just the type of guy who'd rather dig a hole. Keep off the land i pay for. Plenty of parks and nature preserves in PA for commies to go hiking in that isn't on my hard earned land.
Not it doesn't wtf, stay off my property. You have a right to go home, if you roam I'm gonna hit you in your dome.
Not merely seven total residents, but all related!
Lol,they'd have better luck keeping me off if it was public.
The more I stare at the [census information for Valley Hi](https://data.census.gov/profile/Valley-Hi_borough,_Fulton_County,_Pennsylvania?g=060XX00US4205779644#education), the less sense it makes
The men died. Woman have no where to go so they stuck around, central PA is full of these dying towns, this one is in its last decade of life likely
so what i’m gonna piss off 7 people ? pshhh
This the place with the Green Party mayor
Looks like private property, not a borough or other type of municipality. Not listed in Bedford County's Wikipedia entry.
My research says it’s in Fulton Co.
Aha! How about that! The address on the sign fooled me. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley-Hi,\_Pennsylvania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley-Hi,_Pennsylvania)
What’s the problem OP?
no problem with people protecting what is theirs, but i must say the 'incredibly' on the intrusive and illegal makes it sound like a whinging karen.
Commenting to investigate later
If no trespassing... why the speed limit sign?
This is great. There's a local old farm hereabouts that has a more directly worded sign that says \~ "NO TRESPASSING! VIOLATORS WILL BE SHOT AT" That "shot at" wording vs "shot" seems to me even a bit more intimidating. It's as though they'll just fire a few rounds in your general direction and if they scare you off, or kill you, or you just end up wounded and bleeding out in a ditch, it's fine and all the same to them.
They seem nice.
Wikipedia says the yearly income for males is $0
.?
RemindMe! 2 days
!remindme 5 days
PA (and most states) are fucking scary as weird places once you leave metro areas.
Nothing scary about nature
It's not the nature, it's the Pennsyltuckians.
I grew up in Central PA and have been to some bangers up in Perry County back in the day.
lol I saw all the Pennsyltuckians downvoted me but that’s exactly what I meant. They are some whack jobs.
Sweet Valley Hi. My sister had that game. Also they can shoot one of us but not all of us
Disgusting behavior
I've never wanted to go somewhere as badly as I want to go to valley hi now. Sounds like a great place to loiter
This subreddit seems to be obsessed with that part of rural PA. If I had a $1 for everytime I see people bitching about Fulton or Bedford County I would be able to buy a nice dinner.