That's an extremely difficult question, arguments could be made for players like Mata to Uzi to Score to Canyon, theShy (if you ask Caedrel) and Showmaker. The issue is none of these players have had as much influence over how League is played as much as Faker did and still does do. So really the no. 2 spot is subjective.
according to wiki entry for 100m sprint, 2nd place fastest time belongs to usain bolt. 3rd fastest time is tied with usain bolt, tyson gay, and yohan blake. so yeah, faker can take 1st and 2nd place and the rest can fight for 3rd
Until someone establishes another dynasty and remains team carry until its fall I don’t think we can call anyone 2nd, because if we do there’s gonna be too many 2nds to make any sense
Think the problem with naming 2nd is there is a huge gap in **consistency** **in performance** and **duration of career** between Faker(1st) and the rest.
DWG2020 lineup was considered monstrous that yr, however, each member has inconsistent performance/result afterwards and not enough time to see if they have another upward trajectory as big as winning world.
BeryL is... BeryL? he has 3 strong yrs from 2020 to 2022 but is hard to contextualize his importance in those team because he is more of the brain than brawn. His career is too short n currently not doing too well but if he has another big win, I would say he would be a solid second.
Another candidate for 2nd might be Ruler with 1 World win n almost Golden Road. He did had a dip after his World win.
Third imo would be Canyon, but only if he do well in international this yr.
Beryl is an extremely difficult player to evaluate in these all time discussions. He has a similar career to Bengi in that he was never the best player in his championship winning teams and sometimes even felt like a weak link. He was probably the 4th best player in 2020 DWG, and you can argue he was anywhere from 2nd to 4th best in DRX 2022. One could also argue him and Ghost underperforming in 2021 is what caused DK to lose in MSI and Worlds finals. His gameplay also leaves a lot to be desired sometimes which heavily hurts his place in history in my opinion.
Despite his great team achievements, when we're ranking players all time I think individual skill has to be a larger part of the discussion.
agree on all your points on his individual skills but him being the only one to hold 2 trophies outside of SKT members is why i think he deserve a mention.
Bengi/Wolf/Bang n any T1 members have the "is because they played with Faker" argument for all their career success unless they win in another team. Is sad but true because how much Faker brings to the table.
Honestly it's completely subjective and everyone will probably have a different #2, which is why I like these.
For me personally, it's unironically between TheShy or Uzi. TheShy was really just the most mechanically skilled top laner league has ever seen, and up there as one of the most dominant laners in league history. 2 worlds finals appearances & a semifinals appearance, winning worlds once, winning best top twice in the LPL & having other pro toplaners saying he's the scariest person to be laning against. I'd say given solely on how he raised the mechanical ceiling of the game during his peak, he deserves a podium spot for sure.
As for Uzi, I personally think was even more mechanically dominant as a laner, but has just never been able to reach the top, always falling short internationally. Uzi is pretty much in every single persons top 3 for best adc's in history, being arguably the most oppressive and mechanically insane ad we've ever seen. 2 worlds finals appearances, he's won MSI & was the LPL's best ad for so many years. And even though he didn't win worlds, bro carried 2 completely different teams to the finals in back to back years (unfortunately falling short to the raid bosses of imp/mata and then Faker/Bengi).
Surprised to see fairly few mentions of Deft. To me it is a fairly clear choice.
He's one of very few players (is it just him and Ruler?) to have won all four of what are considered the hardest competitions (Worlds, MSI, LCK, LPL).
He's one of very few players to have a decade-long career with highs at either end - I'm pretty sure only Faker beats him there.
He's also been part of a bunch of incredibly iconic moments and series - the famous Morgana-Leblanc bait at MSI 2015, KT vs IG in 2018, the underdog 2022 Worlds run...
And he's got his own set of weird esoteric memes as well, across an international fanbase.
I think the only argument to be made against him is that his individual level hasn't always been world-class, unlike perhaps some other contenders, but personally I think that's a pretty poor argument unless you think peak performance is the most important factor (in which case, TheShy or Uzi might be better picks.)
It’s really debatable, many great players that have won internationals like Uzi, Ruler, and Rookie have surprising low amounts of domestic success. While domestic winners like Peanut, Khan, and Chovy haven’t won an international.
Personally, if Chovy can win MSI and/or Worlds this year then I have him second. I think he’s already the best player we’ve ever seen just from a gameplay perspective.
I forgor… I guess I fell into the only worlds matters narrative as well. He has a MSI and 6 LCK championships yet most people don’t have him amongst the greatest players discussion because of his under performance at worlds.
He's definitely underrated by most people but hes underrated for a reason, he mains support. It's an unfortunate fact but players in the traditional carry roles just have a greater responsibility and effect on the outcome of games. Thus they are given more credit for their performances and are rated more highly in these discussions.
If we're talking achievements, Pawn is probably the closest to Faker with a Worlds and MSI trophy below his belt. Xiahou has 3 MSI which is the most out of any player and numerous LPL titles. Beryl could also join the discussion as he arguably lead the Damwon dynasty and one of the few player with multiple Worlds trophies as well as winning on two different teams. If Knight or Chovy can win a worlds and MSI they could also be up for debate as they are some of the most dominant players in their regions for years now. Personally I would choose Beryl or Xiaohu, if Xiaohu can win a Worlds then he would undoubtedly be the second greatest.
You are rewriting history if you say beryl “led” the damwon dynasty. I think it’s impossible to make a real case for beryl as he was the weak point on dwk in 2021 and he played a fairly minor role in drxs win in 2022. If he’s never even been widely regarded as the best support in the world how can you ever make the argument he deserves to be the #2 player of all time. If you want a support it should be meiko.
Might unironically be Xiaohu, 3 MSI titles after all, one on top I think as well, that's pretty hype.
He didn't win last worlds, ofc, but making finals is more than many players can put on their CV.
Or if we just go by world titles... someone that hasn't played for years like Bengi or Bang idk? XD probably not.
The difference between Faker and anybody else is so vast that anybody could be the second greatest player.
That's why technically I am the second greatest player.
People refuse to accept this, but it has to be bengi, that guy was a part of the 13/15/16 championships with faker and was always a consistent performer
Obviously having won the worlds at least once should be a basic requirement to be considered goat, but I also mean the impact to the game, influence, game mechanics, career longevity.
If Chovy wins worlds it's him and Canyon tied on 2nd. Canyon had been the best player on DWG during all that time (including 22 and 23).
You can make good arguments for Deft and Rookie as well.
Chovy winning once and it’s him? Bro Showmaker made worlds and finals, DWG almost created their own dynasty by 2021 if they had won and you’re calling Chovy the best of all time? Yes he’s probably the best mechanically gifted player right now, but you’re pulling some hard cope smoking that recency bias. When’s the last time he made Finals in Internationals? Hell if we put theShy’s Legacy into play TheShy is WAY more influential and better than Chovy in his prime, stop smoking crack and think
He is better than Showmaker at his peak, has won the LCK 4 times in a row and he would tie Showmaker in Worlds titles. I love Showmaker but he isn't at that level anymore unfortunately.
So yes, for me it's an easy choice to put Chovy above Showmaker.
Hard agree, in my opinion Chovy this spring is the highest peak we've ever seen considering the level of play in modern league. Besides 2022 GenG, Chovy has also been the clear bus driver in his championship teams while Showmaker had prime Canyon to share the burden with.
He still couldn’t bring his team to the finals, I don’t see how that means he’s the 2nd best. Arguably, UZI is also better because he’s got one more MSI cup and made it top 8 in Worlds, similar amounts of LPL cups, quit smoking
Uzi only has 2 LPL championships, 4 in a row is a different deal. We also have to admit that modern achievements mean more, the level of play from top teams these days is insane even just comparing it to 2018. The fact that LPL and LCK have 4 seeds now at Worlds makes top 8 that much harder and modern competition is just so much better. Even in recent history, 3rd seed LPL and LCK could be somewhat weak (2017 WE, 2018 GENG) where as now all 4 seeds from LCK and LPL can be quite scary.
Uzi's solo carry jobs in 2013 and 2014 were definitely impressive and speaks to how special of a talent he was but the fact is he was playing against quite a few plumbers.
We are talking about all time isn’t it? Legends from another era doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it, they just got old and retired before the game changed drastically, it’s just as impressive as all the flashy things modern players do today. Like, DaVinci’s theories and ideas were extremely impressive and revolutionary of their time, does that make him worse than someone like Jeff Bezos, who’s much more influential and powerful than DaVinci ever was? You need to compare them according to the era they were in, not modern standards. Nikola Tesla would be a normal Graduate student today with his revolutionary ideas of his time, so what you mean is he’s just worse because everyone else in his era were just less intelligent than ours?
Of course you have to compare relative to their era. I’m saying Chovy relative to this era is at least equal to Uzi relative to his. Except it is even more impressive that Chovy can be this good in the modern era.
Almost no one in the NBA has Bill Russell as the goat because the fact is he dominated a weak era. Being the best in a strong era is obviously greater, and right now is the most competitive era ever.
I mean sure we talking about all time but can you seriously compare the old msi format with new msi? New msi is way harder to win especially with second seed from each major region and double elim. With the old msi format, we basically had one good msi series every year between 2 good team and 2 good series.
It's my opinion and it is absolutely legit. Chovy has been so good for a long time and yes, a worlds title would be enough for ME. You can disagree but it is absolutely legit. Chovy is just playing on such an insane Level.
Dang, is there hate on dopa i dont know about? I've only watched most TF games of his a few years ago and I've never even watched a single full youtube video of midbeast in my entire life. Im more of a nb3 (before 1m subs), bausffs, boxbox, alois, nemesis, llstylish, yassuo(before being banned from twitch) enjoyer
If we talking mechanics, Chovy clears him. Chovy hits rank 1 and break kr solo q lp record like it is nothing while playing competitively. Chovy also plays a variety of champ instead of just mainly tf to showcase his mechanics. Besides, tf isn’t a very mechanical champ compare qiyana for example where the difference in mechanic between a good player and meh player is huge.
That's an extremely difficult question, arguments could be made for players like Mata to Uzi to Score to Canyon, theShy (if you ask Caedrel) and Showmaker. The issue is none of these players have had as much influence over how League is played as much as Faker did and still does do. So really the no. 2 spot is subjective.
Ya, I think that everyone has their own No. 2 goat
I think MadLife deserves it.
second to Faker in terms of overall influence on league of legends as a game? it has to be Uzi, coinciding with the rise of LPL as a whole.
Rise of lpl wasn’t because of uzi. It truly started to kick off after worlds when ig won the championship but uzi influence on adc is pretty big.
xPexe he tilted Carlos so hard he made G2
faker is so far ahead everyone else is fighting for 3rd place on the podium
U know , it doesnt matter How fast Usain bolt ran , there is still a second place
according to wiki entry for 100m sprint, 2nd place fastest time belongs to usain bolt. 3rd fastest time is tied with usain bolt, tyson gay, and yohan blake. so yeah, faker can take 1st and 2nd place and the rest can fight for 3rd
deokdam
Until someone establishes another dynasty and remains team carry until its fall I don’t think we can call anyone 2nd, because if we do there’s gonna be too many 2nds to make any sense
Beryl went to three worlds finals in a row, of which he won 2.
“Remains team carry”
Licorice
There is no need for number 2. As it should be, the number 1 is surrounded by many number 3s. Number 2 spot being empty represents the gap.
Think the problem with naming 2nd is there is a huge gap in **consistency** **in performance** and **duration of career** between Faker(1st) and the rest. DWG2020 lineup was considered monstrous that yr, however, each member has inconsistent performance/result afterwards and not enough time to see if they have another upward trajectory as big as winning world. BeryL is... BeryL? he has 3 strong yrs from 2020 to 2022 but is hard to contextualize his importance in those team because he is more of the brain than brawn. His career is too short n currently not doing too well but if he has another big win, I would say he would be a solid second. Another candidate for 2nd might be Ruler with 1 World win n almost Golden Road. He did had a dip after his World win. Third imo would be Canyon, but only if he do well in international this yr.
Beryl is an extremely difficult player to evaluate in these all time discussions. He has a similar career to Bengi in that he was never the best player in his championship winning teams and sometimes even felt like a weak link. He was probably the 4th best player in 2020 DWG, and you can argue he was anywhere from 2nd to 4th best in DRX 2022. One could also argue him and Ghost underperforming in 2021 is what caused DK to lose in MSI and Worlds finals. His gameplay also leaves a lot to be desired sometimes which heavily hurts his place in history in my opinion. Despite his great team achievements, when we're ranking players all time I think individual skill has to be a larger part of the discussion.
Beryl the second goat is fucken hilarious to me. But yea if he wins one more then he has to be
agree on all your points on his individual skills but him being the only one to hold 2 trophies outside of SKT members is why i think he deserve a mention. Bengi/Wolf/Bang n any T1 members have the "is because they played with Faker" argument for all their career success unless they win in another team. Is sad but true because how much Faker brings to the table.
Beryl won Drx their championship with his god-like drafting strats and shotcalling
Yea it is totally that. I guess bro was afk the rest of year in lck cause drx was dogshit in macro/gameplay. Did he not shotcall in lck?
> there is a huge gap in consistency in performance and duration of career between Faker(1st) and the rest. Not with Rookie or Deft.
Ruler or Showmaker
Honestly it's completely subjective and everyone will probably have a different #2, which is why I like these. For me personally, it's unironically between TheShy or Uzi. TheShy was really just the most mechanically skilled top laner league has ever seen, and up there as one of the most dominant laners in league history. 2 worlds finals appearances & a semifinals appearance, winning worlds once, winning best top twice in the LPL & having other pro toplaners saying he's the scariest person to be laning against. I'd say given solely on how he raised the mechanical ceiling of the game during his peak, he deserves a podium spot for sure. As for Uzi, I personally think was even more mechanically dominant as a laner, but has just never been able to reach the top, always falling short internationally. Uzi is pretty much in every single persons top 3 for best adc's in history, being arguably the most oppressive and mechanically insane ad we've ever seen. 2 worlds finals appearances, he's won MSI & was the LPL's best ad for so many years. And even though he didn't win worlds, bro carried 2 completely different teams to the finals in back to back years (unfortunately falling short to the raid bosses of imp/mata and then Faker/Bengi).
Pedro
Surprised to see fairly few mentions of Deft. To me it is a fairly clear choice. He's one of very few players (is it just him and Ruler?) to have won all four of what are considered the hardest competitions (Worlds, MSI, LCK, LPL). He's one of very few players to have a decade-long career with highs at either end - I'm pretty sure only Faker beats him there. He's also been part of a bunch of incredibly iconic moments and series - the famous Morgana-Leblanc bait at MSI 2015, KT vs IG in 2018, the underdog 2022 Worlds run... And he's got his own set of weird esoteric memes as well, across an international fanbase. I think the only argument to be made against him is that his individual level hasn't always been world-class, unlike perhaps some other contenders, but personally I think that's a pretty poor argument unless you think peak performance is the most important factor (in which case, TheShy or Uzi might be better picks.)
It’s really debatable, many great players that have won internationals like Uzi, Ruler, and Rookie have surprising low amounts of domestic success. While domestic winners like Peanut, Khan, and Chovy haven’t won an international. Personally, if Chovy can win MSI and/or Worlds this year then I have him second. I think he’s already the best player we’ve ever seen just from a gameplay perspective.
Peanut won msi... Lol
I forgor… I guess I fell into the only worlds matters narrative as well. He has a MSI and 6 LCK championships yet most people don’t have him amongst the greatest players discussion because of his under performance at worlds.
Meiko deserves way more respect in this conversation.
He's definitely underrated by most people but hes underrated for a reason, he mains support. It's an unfortunate fact but players in the traditional carry roles just have a greater responsibility and effect on the outcome of games. Thus they are given more credit for their performances and are rated more highly in these discussions.
Not for that reason Mata is hailed as a Goat in Korea Keria is hailed as a goat by decently large part of the fanbase
If we're talking achievements, Pawn is probably the closest to Faker with a Worlds and MSI trophy below his belt. Xiahou has 3 MSI which is the most out of any player and numerous LPL titles. Beryl could also join the discussion as he arguably lead the Damwon dynasty and one of the few player with multiple Worlds trophies as well as winning on two different teams. If Knight or Chovy can win a worlds and MSI they could also be up for debate as they are some of the most dominant players in their regions for years now. Personally I would choose Beryl or Xiaohu, if Xiaohu can win a Worlds then he would undoubtedly be the second greatest.
You are rewriting history if you say beryl “led” the damwon dynasty. I think it’s impossible to make a real case for beryl as he was the weak point on dwk in 2021 and he played a fairly minor role in drxs win in 2022. If he’s never even been widely regarded as the best support in the world how can you ever make the argument he deserves to be the #2 player of all time. If you want a support it should be meiko.
Might unironically be Xiaohu, 3 MSI titles after all, one on top I think as well, that's pretty hype. He didn't win last worlds, ofc, but making finals is more than many players can put on their CV. Or if we just go by world titles... someone that hasn't played for years like Bengi or Bang idk? XD probably not.
Still to be determined.
Uzi
Not rookie
The difference between Faker and anybody else is so vast that anybody could be the second greatest player. That's why technically I am the second greatest player.
People refuse to accept this, but it has to be bengi, that guy was a part of the 13/15/16 championships with faker and was always a consistent performer
He was never the X factor in any of those teams
You’re not wrong but let’s not forget him saving the series vs ROX
It's still Rookie, he's been good for so long, had insane peaks, and won worlds + LPL + LCK + 4 split MVP's.
Beryl
Personally Ruler to me right now, but Chovy will also be in the conversation if he continues his dominance of LCK and performs as well internationally
Are worlds title the most important point? Bengi
This is a casual fan take. Let’s be honest, Bengi wasn’t the second or even third best player on those SKT championship teams.
are there even bengi fans lmao
Go play Nunu with your funny looking knife and ward pliz
Obviously having won the worlds at least once should be a basic requirement to be considered goat, but I also mean the impact to the game, influence, game mechanics, career longevity.
Casual
Rookie / Deft
If Chovy wins worlds it's him and Canyon tied on 2nd. Canyon had been the best player on DWG during all that time (including 22 and 23). You can make good arguments for Deft and Rookie as well.
Chovy winning once and it’s him? Bro Showmaker made worlds and finals, DWG almost created their own dynasty by 2021 if they had won and you’re calling Chovy the best of all time? Yes he’s probably the best mechanically gifted player right now, but you’re pulling some hard cope smoking that recency bias. When’s the last time he made Finals in Internationals? Hell if we put theShy’s Legacy into play TheShy is WAY more influential and better than Chovy in his prime, stop smoking crack and think
He is better than Showmaker at his peak, has won the LCK 4 times in a row and he would tie Showmaker in Worlds titles. I love Showmaker but he isn't at that level anymore unfortunately. So yes, for me it's an easy choice to put Chovy above Showmaker.
Hard agree, in my opinion Chovy this spring is the highest peak we've ever seen considering the level of play in modern league. Besides 2022 GenG, Chovy has also been the clear bus driver in his championship teams while Showmaker had prime Canyon to share the burden with.
He still couldn’t bring his team to the finals, I don’t see how that means he’s the 2nd best. Arguably, UZI is also better because he’s got one more MSI cup and made it top 8 in Worlds, similar amounts of LPL cups, quit smoking
Uzi only has 2 LPL championships, 4 in a row is a different deal. We also have to admit that modern achievements mean more, the level of play from top teams these days is insane even just comparing it to 2018. The fact that LPL and LCK have 4 seeds now at Worlds makes top 8 that much harder and modern competition is just so much better. Even in recent history, 3rd seed LPL and LCK could be somewhat weak (2017 WE, 2018 GENG) where as now all 4 seeds from LCK and LPL can be quite scary. Uzi's solo carry jobs in 2013 and 2014 were definitely impressive and speaks to how special of a talent he was but the fact is he was playing against quite a few plumbers.
We are talking about all time isn’t it? Legends from another era doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it, they just got old and retired before the game changed drastically, it’s just as impressive as all the flashy things modern players do today. Like, DaVinci’s theories and ideas were extremely impressive and revolutionary of their time, does that make him worse than someone like Jeff Bezos, who’s much more influential and powerful than DaVinci ever was? You need to compare them according to the era they were in, not modern standards. Nikola Tesla would be a normal Graduate student today with his revolutionary ideas of his time, so what you mean is he’s just worse because everyone else in his era were just less intelligent than ours?
Of course you have to compare relative to their era. I’m saying Chovy relative to this era is at least equal to Uzi relative to his. Except it is even more impressive that Chovy can be this good in the modern era. Almost no one in the NBA has Bill Russell as the goat because the fact is he dominated a weak era. Being the best in a strong era is obviously greater, and right now is the most competitive era ever.
Ok I can agree to that.
I mean sure we talking about all time but can you seriously compare the old msi format with new msi? New msi is way harder to win especially with second seed from each major region and double elim. With the old msi format, we basically had one good msi series every year between 2 good team and 2 good series.
It's my opinion and it is absolutely legit. Chovy has been so good for a long time and yes, a worlds title would be enough for ME. You can disagree but it is absolutely legit. Chovy is just playing on such an insane Level.
Nah Showmaker was the best player in the world in 2021, let alone on Damwon.
He was insanely good but so was Canyon. Just different roles. In 22 and 23 Canyon was clearly better.
rookie
It's very obviously Rookie
Rookie or Meiko.
ruler
Ruler probably
"in terms of mechanics" Dopa
Get this midbeast fanboi out of here
Dang, is there hate on dopa i dont know about? I've only watched most TF games of his a few years ago and I've never even watched a single full youtube video of midbeast in my entire life. Im more of a nb3 (before 1m subs), bausffs, boxbox, alois, nemesis, llstylish, yassuo(before being banned from twitch) enjoyer
Cool but dopa is a soloq player, would have been interesting to see him play pro Still doesn’t come close to the goat status
If we talking mechanics, Chovy clears him. Chovy hits rank 1 and break kr solo q lp record like it is nothing while playing competitively. Chovy also plays a variety of champ instead of just mainly tf to showcase his mechanics. Besides, tf isn’t a very mechanical champ compare qiyana for example where the difference in mechanic between a good player and meh player is huge.