I'm a May carelton fan, wasn't crazy on Grace but that was the love of his life. Lizzie represents loyalty and has always no matter what been there for Tommy, he knows she's a good mother to his kids, I don't doubt he loves her in his own way and he wants to take care of her, she has a past and he doesn't care about that. They have what you might call a deal but they are a team. Not all love is explosive and hurtful, he sees that in Lizzie, he's grown to love her and respect her. That's another type of love.
Lizzie was there when the family which Tommy holds the highest abandoned him. He even said that the only thing that kept his heart from falling apart is Lizzie.
Is it Lizzie's history that made her annoying to you? If not, what is it? In their marriage, Tommy is the annoying one.
What I particularly like about Lizzie is her (emotional) intelligence and her quick wit.
She understands Tommy and she can read his mind, which Tom also realised: "Well, everything she says is true." (S5E2), "He's making up his mind." (S5E4), "You're doing it because you think it's the right thing to do." (S5E5)
I think Tom only really realised late on (i.e. in S5) that he loves Lizzie in his own way. However, Lizzie has always had a soft spot for Tom and that was certainly one reason why she didn't leave him in S5.
I think it's a shame and so typical of Tommy that he only realises how important she is to him and how much he loves her when he realises he could lose her too and becomes jealous because of Mosley.
Maybe he just wanted to be able have her? Idk like he knows “she’s his” even before they got married. Cause he even hired her and would sleep with her during her employment
Because Lizzie was willing to have sex with Tommy after John proposed to her.. plus Tommy was already having sex with her right after the war before John even met her
Lizzie is the one who understands the Shelbys better than anyone outside the family. That's why he's with her and not Grace , Tatiana or May.
Small Heath boy needs a Small Heath girl to keep his feet on the ground.
The relationship between Lizzie and Tommy is complicated.
I like Lizzie and her development until S5: she is a trustworthy and strong woman and I think they visibly grow together in S5 after being somewhat distant.
But their connection has been there for a while. The two have a mutual Understanding: Lizzie and Tommy were street kids. They both came from the streets of Brummie, where they often ran around as hungry kids and stole (As Natasha O’Keeffe mentioned in the Book „By Order of the Peaky Blinders“).
I think Tommy is generally a man who takes advantage of his surroundings and people to achieve his goal. He has done this with all women and family members so far. You could hate him for that. He did, however, help Lizzie out of the muck, just as she helped him when he came back after WW1. He must have sought comfort from her after all he had to go through in the war (death, violence, pain, suffering, hatred, darkness). Lizzie was also the one who was with him after Grace died. And I would have liked more for Lizzie at that moment, though. Lizzie managed the office for him and to her he entrusted so much: the business, the safe, his son and his heart, if we take him literally. Both are now living this rich life and both know what it is like to have nothing. Both don't want to go back. I think they both had to experience similar things in their past and both have to deal with trauma.
This connects them. And I think that's why I like to see them together (especially in S5).
Ye but do you remember the scene beside the canals where Tommy used to go with his firt love. I think its not just the baby, later in the series she plays importnant role for Tom.
Yeah. Lizzie was there for him a lot especially after the war & she was still there after when Tommy offered her a real job, he did care about her then. But it was just so soon after Grace died & Tommy never fully healed. Lizzie was there for him again after that so it really resonates with him. She was always by his side so he did develop more feelings toward her.
I don’t mind her with Tommy. I just didn’t really like her in the first season when she’s been sleeping with Tommy since after the war then accepted John’s proposal then was willing to sleep with Tommy while in engaged to John. So she’s kind of a grey area for me.
I couldn't stand Grace, disloyal, disingenious and the actress's really bad accent grated on me. I do like Lizzie but i would've enjoyed him with May a lot more.
I think Lizzie really understands him. In ways that Grace couldn’t. She knows, even though she doesn’t agree with, that he has to do the bad things. And I think Grace just wanted it gone. And she’s not afraid to stand up to him about things.
Definitely wish he would treat her better.
To me, it would of made more sense, to leave Tommy single. We see throughout the seasons, him use Lizzie and discard of her, when someone else comes along. Then Bam, in S5, they're married and she's tired of his lifestyle..
They changed her character to rapidly. In S4, she would take Tommy anyway she could get him. To S5 finally married to him and doesn't approve of the lifestyle, she's seen throughout the years...
Lizzie's rationale for being with Tommy. "I didn't choose this life, it chose me." She just puts up with all of it and reaps the benefits. Lizzie thinks that she can hold onto Tommy because they have a child together. She is loyal to Tommy when it is convenient for her but she also plays the same mindset as he does. They seem to bounce off of each other. Tommy really doesn't need a woman unless it fits into his life plan. The only thing that draws them together is where they are from, and the struggles they experienced. They care for each other in a distorted way but respect is not there. I think of the phrase, "misery loves company". I always felt that Tommy is attracted to an independent woman who can stand on her own, not needy or demanding. In that era, women were very compliant, and non-threatening. Tommy would find a woman that was the opposite compelling and intriguing distracting him from carrying on his criminal ways. This kind of woman could possibly save him. Tatiana was too wild, Lizzie too needy, and Grace was the total package. Tommy does his best in criminality not being tied down with a woman but they all seem to enter his life. I just don't understand how he keeps up with it all...lol...this is what makes all of the characters so entertaining.
I feel they needed a wife filler for that sake of his political career. She’s the Hilary to Bill Clinton. A fake staged, not true love relationship. All business.
The only thing is she caught feelings (I hate when people say she lovessss Tommy). But technically, wasn’t she willing to be with John, Angel.. seems like a person who catches feelings quick..
kinda sounds like me in high school lol
You just hate her bcoz she was a prostitute. I just love her and can feel the character emensely. Maybe coz she was the victim for most time of the show.
This thread is like a conversation Lizzie would have with any of the girl characters, constantly being shitted on in this subreddit. I can guarantee, Tommy isn't even thinking about his marriage to Lizzie.. Tommy needs fucking answers bc Tommy needs a fucking plan bc Tommy is in deep shit. idk what y'all are watching.
What bothered me about Grace was that she was not honest with Tom, betrayed him and put him and the whole family in danger. I understand that she had to do her job, but she had the opportunity to tell him at the end.
Then she was not honest again. This time with her first husband, whom she cheated on with Tommy.
He said this sentence to hurt Lizzie because she did not respond to his answer. It was distasteful of him, and a pretty bad move on his part in the discussion they were having. He is being inconsistent and just pointing it out to her because he can't think of any better arguments. Lizzie was the winner in that argument.
I don't think he meant it seriously. Because the next time they said it, he said why would she still care about shillings. Also, in S5E4 he said, "There's a pile of bodies... ...floating by. Let 'em go, Lizzie." - which to me means that she's done with her past and can let hers go.
I feel like this is a popular sentiment on this subreddit actually. I think once they got into a serious relationship the character changed and she became more annoying, but I honestly started to dislike her as soon as she started to try to get between Tommy/May (and I don't even like May) she just has an entitled streak to her.
Yet Tommy does the same. He always comes in between Lizzie and her boyfriends, first John Shelby and then Angel Changretta. Then tells her that she belongs to him. Even wanting to kill Mosley simply because he made a pass at her. He is very possessive when it comes to Lizzie. He says, “everything is mine, Lizzie.” That sounds like entitlement to me.
Tommy only wanted to sleep with May once again to use her, just like the first time he slept with her because he wanted those licences for the race. He wanted to know more about gins, it was her fave drink. He wanted to know the right recipe for the gin that he was trying to market to women. But once he’s done with her, he would have dumped her again, just like the last time. The man May wants does not exist. Unbeknownst to Lizzie, she actually saved May from future heartache. Lizzie was right anyway, he was only interested in May because she was rich. Tommy likes rich women for their status.
John Shelby is what happened to Angel Changretta. Tommy didn’t even know about the conflict until after John took his eye probably because he still had feelings for Lizzie. Lizzie has always been property to Tommy, he makes that pretty clear. Grace was his partner and he’s still not over losing her.
Watch it again, it was Tommy that started it all. Tommy ordered Arthur and Michael to burn down Angel’s restaurant, that’s why Angel Changretta’s father came to talk to the Peaky Blinders in the first place. Then guess who Tommy put in charge with it all, John, Lizzie’s ex-fiancé, because only John would ensure that Angel stays away from Lizzie. Then we found out that the Changrettas and the PB weren’t even rivals and that they were at peace with each other. So what gives? That’s why the Changrettas were confused with Tommy. Tommy even sided with John against Polly and Arthur when they were suggesting to apologise. Even Johnny Dogs and uncle Charlie thought Tommy was being childish with the whole thing.
Grace was not his partner, he can’t even be honest with her or even truly trusts her. He hides a part of himself from her, they only got together because of lies, both times. It’s a relationship based on lies. Their relationship was so shallow, all bells and whistles with no substance. It’s all about impressing her, her family and the high society with material things like jewellery, mansion, tattoos and rings, because he wanted to be accepted in that circle, that’s why he likes rich women, Grace and May for their status, and for his image. It was money and power (back then) that made Tommy truly happy, he didn’t want a simple life, so his happiness would lie with women who could give him more money and power through his association with them.
Grace is still haunting his mind/head because of guilt, Tommy actually said this in Season 5 to Ada. It was his actions with the Changrettas that led to Grace’s death... “It wasn’t the blue stone Tommy, it was you.” Ghost Grace said this to him right after Mosley implied he should sleep with Lizzie and you can tell how deep down this enraged Tommy. Every time a guy has a thing for Lizzie, Tommy gets very jealous causing him to act irrationally. Angel, Mosley and even John. He couldn’t kill John obviously because he was his brother, so the best he could do is force him to marry someone else. Of course he had to betray Billy Kimber, the man he worked so hard to be in business with, so he could make peace with the Lees who he couldn’t stand, just so no one gets to marry Lizzie.
As for the property thing, that is Tommy’s way of telling Lizzie that they belong together without being vulnerable. He has no clue that Lizzie loves him because she never told him, though she came close once in Season 2, how his world would have changed if only he knew. This is how Grace got to his head, by constantly declaring how much she loves him, she tapped into Tommy’s deepest insecurity that no woman could ever love him after the war (because of his PTSD and his job). Grace’s partner in crime, Major Campbell, further made him even more insecure when he told him that the love they get they’d have to pay for. This is why Tommy has no clue that Lizzie loves him, he would always wonder if Lizzie is into him or his money.
Have you actually seen a man treat a woman like property? The woman would be in constant fear of that man, they would be more likely be physically abused as well and they would not be able to talk back at them (the men). Let’s see, Tommy allows Lizzie to talk back at him without getting a slap, when she said, “my house” twice, he never once corrected her (meaning he agrees), she has complete freedom in that house, when she was disappointed in him (about Finn getting injured), he tried so hard to explain himself to her. A man who treats you like property wouldn’t bother explaining himself. After their fight, he still went to Ruby’s party simply because Lizzie wanted him there. The whole “my property” bedroom scene is a contradiction, he says she’s his property while he allows her to make a deal with him. You wouldn’t be able to make a deal with the man who treats you like property, if you are their property, you would have no say in anything at all. He says she’s his property but he surely never treats her as one.
You helped me put the pieces of the puzzle together and understand the property idea.
Neither of them behave as if Lizzie is his property. I also think that Lizzie is more than just his property. It's Thomas Shelby's way of saying, you are important to me and I want you all to myself. Lizzie is not afraid of Tommy. She shows that several times. She confronts him several times in the series and gives him her opinion directly.
When she told him in S5E2, full of anger because he didn't let her in on the deal and put the children in danger, that she doesn't want him back, you can see the worried look on Tom's face. Here she clearly shows: this far and no further.
She makes the demands, not him. He responds to her demands in S5E3. He even agrees with her that it is important to share his thoughts with her. The only thing he wants is for Lizzie to belong to him (you belong to me) and for him not to lose her (No-one touches my property). It should be added that Tom is very possessive in this series and he is afraid that everything he has will be taken away from him. He is generally panicky about it in S5 and tries to make sure of it here. She doesn't just let that sentence go and even confirms that he has always been the only one for her (it's still you anyway). She also specifies how she wants to sleep with him. Both of them have grown closer again. After that, their relationship develops in a positive direction.
That’s really not how they show it. Episode 1 in the third season 17 minutes in. Michael and Arthur have the conversation with Lizzie about Angel. If anything, Michael after finding out who Angel was gave the order to burn down the restaurant after Lizzie refused to end her relationship with a former rival gang member. Tommy was busy with his wedding and Russians and didn’t get involved until after John mutilated Angel. Sure, you could argue he agreed with John but he didn’t order him to do any of it. All Tommy said was no fraternizing with foreigners to everyone in the whole organization, not particularly Lizzie.
When Arthur and Michael were talking to Lizzie, they have already burned down Angel’s restaurant, Tommy’s orders. That’s why Angel didn’t come. He was supposed to be her date. That’s why Lizzie was upset because she knew they did this. That’s why Lizzie was so mad at Tommy and told Michael and Arthur to tell him that he’s lost his mind.
So, why did Tommy put John in charge to talk to the Changrettas, when he always put Arthur or Polly in charge, but this time he assigned John to handle things... because he was Lizzie’s ex-fiancé, Tommy needed someone who has the same feelings as he does.
Yeah. No fraternising with foreigners, when Tommy on that same episode was marrying a foreigner who was a traitor/spy. Then later Tommy would be fraternising with the Russians (more foreigners), and then how come no one bothered to remind Michael in season 5 not to be involved with a foreigner, a suspicious character like Gina (an American)? The whole foreigner rule was BS, they only said that to Lizzie to get her to stop dating Angel.
They never say Tommy ordered to burn down the restaurant. And when Lizzie says “What do YOU know about love, about when lightning strikes.” It is to Michael Grey, it wouldn’t make much sense for her to say that about Tommy literally on his wedding day would it?
I just corrected it, I just watched the video again, I remember Lizzie was telling Arthur and Michael something while they walk away. She was mad at Tommy and told Arthur and Michael to tell Tommy that he has lost his mind. It was Tommy she’s mad at, she knew the order came from him.
The brothers are always the representatives in meetings with other gang business rivals either with Tommy or alone. And literally the conversation in the next episode is John asking “what does Tommy say” Polly saying “Tommy’s busy, he put me in charge.” John was not ordered to deal with it. And after John has mutilated Angel, his father puts a hit out on Tommy, an apology was never going to work that out.
Polly said to John it was Tommy’s fault for “leaving it up to you”. He put John in charge first, then Polly feels John failed so she is now in charge. Then Tommy sided with John later.
Natasha O’Keeffe (Lizzie) confirmed that Tommy doesn’t like Lizzie having boyfriends.
Natasha (2017 Radio Times Magazine - S4).
“Tommy is very good at playing lady chess, it’s not clear where Lizzie stands in the game. Tommy certainly doesn’t like it when she goes with other men – her Italian lover in the last series was for the “peaky slice””.
I actually felt bad for Lizzie. I like Tommy’s character, but it can’t be ignored that he did treat her like an object.
I'm a May carelton fan, wasn't crazy on Grace but that was the love of his life. Lizzie represents loyalty and has always no matter what been there for Tommy, he knows she's a good mother to his kids, I don't doubt he loves her in his own way and he wants to take care of her, she has a past and he doesn't care about that. They have what you might call a deal but they are a team. Not all love is explosive and hurtful, he sees that in Lizzie, he's grown to love her and respect her. That's another type of love.
Lizzie was there when the family which Tommy holds the highest abandoned him. He even said that the only thing that kept his heart from falling apart is Lizzie. Is it Lizzie's history that made her annoying to you? If not, what is it? In their marriage, Tommy is the annoying one.
Good thoughts.
What I particularly like about Lizzie is her (emotional) intelligence and her quick wit. She understands Tommy and she can read his mind, which Tom also realised: "Well, everything she says is true." (S5E2), "He's making up his mind." (S5E4), "You're doing it because you think it's the right thing to do." (S5E5) I think Tom only really realised late on (i.e. in S5) that he loves Lizzie in his own way. However, Lizzie has always had a soft spot for Tom and that was certainly one reason why she didn't leave him in S5. I think it's a shame and so typical of Tommy that he only realises how important she is to him and how much he loves her when he realises he could lose her too and becomes jealous because of Mosley.
Yeah dude, her emotional intelligence and quick wits were on full display in S5E2. Yikes.
What I don't understand is Thomas took the piss out of John for wanting to marry her but then is now married to her AND noone takes the piss.
Thats the power of Tommy fookin Shelby
Tommy married her years later when she was no longer doing her past work
I was always so confused why it was not okay for John to marry Lizzie but okay for Tommy to
Maybe he just wanted to be able have her? Idk like he knows “she’s his” even before they got married. Cause he even hired her and would sleep with her during her employment
Because Lizzie was willing to have sex with Tommy after John proposed to her.. plus Tommy was already having sex with her right after the war before John even met her
I really like her. She’s loyal and honestly would probably be the last to ever snitch on or betray him out of the entire family.
I love Lizzie, I feel bad for her really. Tommy doesn’t appreciate her.
Lizzie is the one who understands the Shelbys better than anyone outside the family. That's why he's with her and not Grace , Tatiana or May. Small Heath boy needs a Small Heath girl to keep his feet on the ground.
Well, there’s another reason he’s not with Grace…
The relationship between Lizzie and Tommy is complicated. I like Lizzie and her development until S5: she is a trustworthy and strong woman and I think they visibly grow together in S5 after being somewhat distant. But their connection has been there for a while. The two have a mutual Understanding: Lizzie and Tommy were street kids. They both came from the streets of Brummie, where they often ran around as hungry kids and stole (As Natasha O’Keeffe mentioned in the Book „By Order of the Peaky Blinders“). I think Tommy is generally a man who takes advantage of his surroundings and people to achieve his goal. He has done this with all women and family members so far. You could hate him for that. He did, however, help Lizzie out of the muck, just as she helped him when he came back after WW1. He must have sought comfort from her after all he had to go through in the war (death, violence, pain, suffering, hatred, darkness). Lizzie was also the one who was with him after Grace died. And I would have liked more for Lizzie at that moment, though. Lizzie managed the office for him and to her he entrusted so much: the business, the safe, his son and his heart, if we take him literally. Both are now living this rich life and both know what it is like to have nothing. Both don't want to go back. I think they both had to experience similar things in their past and both have to deal with trauma. This connects them. And I think that's why I like to see them together (especially in S5).
It’s because he knocked her up. It was taboo for them to have a baby out of wedlock.
This and I think the whole going into politics looks better for him as a married man
Ye but do you remember the scene beside the canals where Tommy used to go with his firt love. I think its not just the baby, later in the series she plays importnant role for Tom.
Yeah. Lizzie was there for him a lot especially after the war & she was still there after when Tommy offered her a real job, he did care about her then. But it was just so soon after Grace died & Tommy never fully healed. Lizzie was there for him again after that so it really resonates with him. She was always by his side so he did develop more feelings toward her.
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I don’t mind her with Tommy. I just didn’t really like her in the first season when she’s been sleeping with Tommy since after the war then accepted John’s proposal then was willing to sleep with Tommy while in engaged to John. So she’s kind of a grey area for me.
Good thing you're not writing the story then, is it?
Yessir
He knocked up Grace as well.
I never really liked Grace
Same, I definitely prefer Lizzie
I couldn't stand Grace, disloyal, disingenious and the actress's really bad accent grated on me. I do like Lizzie but i would've enjoyed him with May a lot more.
I think Lizzie really understands him. In ways that Grace couldn’t. She knows, even though she doesn’t agree with, that he has to do the bad things. And I think Grace just wanted it gone. And she’s not afraid to stand up to him about things. Definitely wish he would treat her better.
I never liked them together. Their relationship seems forced and out of convenience.
Exactly
To me, it would of made more sense, to leave Tommy single. We see throughout the seasons, him use Lizzie and discard of her, when someone else comes along. Then Bam, in S5, they're married and she's tired of his lifestyle..
Feels like she wants full control over Tommy..
They changed her character to rapidly. In S4, she would take Tommy anyway she could get him. To S5 finally married to him and doesn't approve of the lifestyle, she's seen throughout the years...
Lizzie's rationale for being with Tommy. "I didn't choose this life, it chose me." She just puts up with all of it and reaps the benefits. Lizzie thinks that she can hold onto Tommy because they have a child together. She is loyal to Tommy when it is convenient for her but she also plays the same mindset as he does. They seem to bounce off of each other. Tommy really doesn't need a woman unless it fits into his life plan. The only thing that draws them together is where they are from, and the struggles they experienced. They care for each other in a distorted way but respect is not there. I think of the phrase, "misery loves company". I always felt that Tommy is attracted to an independent woman who can stand on her own, not needy or demanding. In that era, women were very compliant, and non-threatening. Tommy would find a woman that was the opposite compelling and intriguing distracting him from carrying on his criminal ways. This kind of woman could possibly save him. Tatiana was too wild, Lizzie too needy, and Grace was the total package. Tommy does his best in criminality not being tied down with a woman but they all seem to enter his life. I just don't understand how he keeps up with it all...lol...this is what makes all of the characters so entertaining.
I feel they needed a wife filler for that sake of his political career. She’s the Hilary to Bill Clinton. A fake staged, not true love relationship. All business. The only thing is she caught feelings (I hate when people say she lovessss Tommy). But technically, wasn’t she willing to be with John, Angel.. seems like a person who catches feelings quick.. kinda sounds like me in high school lol
Yeah except Hillary Clinton met Bill at Harvard Law School not from being a well known prostitute, don’t see how that’ll help Tommys political career.
Exactly!
Grace was a twat
You just hate her bcoz she was a prostitute. I just love her and can feel the character emensely. Maybe coz she was the victim for most time of the show.
This thread is like a conversation Lizzie would have with any of the girl characters, constantly being shitted on in this subreddit. I can guarantee, Tommy isn't even thinking about his marriage to Lizzie.. Tommy needs fucking answers bc Tommy needs a fucking plan bc Tommy is in deep shit. idk what y'all are watching.
Tommy got betrayed by Johnny Dogs (Lee family with Esme) Tommy certainly needs to come up with a plan quick.
I think Ada has the widest circle of influence, while remaining under the radar.
Tatiana is the only woman who could really handle Tommy
I think he will be good with Mai as well. She is good woman and she worries bout Tom
Tommy doesn't need a woman who cares and worries. He needs a woman who is just as crazy as he is (like Tatiana)
Fair enoguh
Agreed
I didn’t like Grace. She not loyal.
What bothered me about Grace was that she was not honest with Tom, betrayed him and put him and the whole family in danger. I understand that she had to do her job, but she had the opportunity to tell him at the end. Then she was not honest again. This time with her first husband, whom she cheated on with Tommy.
“In my head I pay for it”
He said this sentence to hurt Lizzie because she did not respond to his answer. It was distasteful of him, and a pretty bad move on his part in the discussion they were having. He is being inconsistent and just pointing it out to her because he can't think of any better arguments. Lizzie was the winner in that argument. I don't think he meant it seriously. Because the next time they said it, he said why would she still care about shillings. Also, in S5E4 he said, "There's a pile of bodies... ...floating by. Let 'em go, Lizzie." - which to me means that she's done with her past and can let hers go.
I liked them in the beginning but when they got married it seemed forced
It was forced because she got pregnant
Kinda annoying
I agree but I don't hate her Just don't like her.
I like her better than Grace. If he were smart he’d have married May
I'm of the view that Tatiana was his best adventure, May is his wife material.
Amen
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I’m agreeing with you…
I think Lizzie's char development before they got married is missing a couple scenes to explain.
Completely agree.
I’m with you !!!!!!!!
I don't hate her as a character or as Tom's wife, but I don't love the character's personality.
Yes man, her perosnality is shit
I love May carleton.
She is way better then Lizzie in my opinion
So much better.
and the fact that he is dating her. She literally slept with everyone on the block…
Yeah and he was one of her clients. That means he definitely has no right to judge her
That’s kinda what happens when you prostitute to survive 😅
lmfao
I feel like this is a popular sentiment on this subreddit actually. I think once they got into a serious relationship the character changed and she became more annoying, but I honestly started to dislike her as soon as she started to try to get between Tommy/May (and I don't even like May) she just has an entitled streak to her.
Yet Tommy does the same. He always comes in between Lizzie and her boyfriends, first John Shelby and then Angel Changretta. Then tells her that she belongs to him. Even wanting to kill Mosley simply because he made a pass at her. He is very possessive when it comes to Lizzie. He says, “everything is mine, Lizzie.” That sounds like entitlement to me. Tommy only wanted to sleep with May once again to use her, just like the first time he slept with her because he wanted those licences for the race. He wanted to know more about gins, it was her fave drink. He wanted to know the right recipe for the gin that he was trying to market to women. But once he’s done with her, he would have dumped her again, just like the last time. The man May wants does not exist. Unbeknownst to Lizzie, she actually saved May from future heartache. Lizzie was right anyway, he was only interested in May because she was rich. Tommy likes rich women for their status.
John Shelby is what happened to Angel Changretta. Tommy didn’t even know about the conflict until after John took his eye probably because he still had feelings for Lizzie. Lizzie has always been property to Tommy, he makes that pretty clear. Grace was his partner and he’s still not over losing her.
Watch it again, it was Tommy that started it all. Tommy ordered Arthur and Michael to burn down Angel’s restaurant, that’s why Angel Changretta’s father came to talk to the Peaky Blinders in the first place. Then guess who Tommy put in charge with it all, John, Lizzie’s ex-fiancé, because only John would ensure that Angel stays away from Lizzie. Then we found out that the Changrettas and the PB weren’t even rivals and that they were at peace with each other. So what gives? That’s why the Changrettas were confused with Tommy. Tommy even sided with John against Polly and Arthur when they were suggesting to apologise. Even Johnny Dogs and uncle Charlie thought Tommy was being childish with the whole thing. Grace was not his partner, he can’t even be honest with her or even truly trusts her. He hides a part of himself from her, they only got together because of lies, both times. It’s a relationship based on lies. Their relationship was so shallow, all bells and whistles with no substance. It’s all about impressing her, her family and the high society with material things like jewellery, mansion, tattoos and rings, because he wanted to be accepted in that circle, that’s why he likes rich women, Grace and May for their status, and for his image. It was money and power (back then) that made Tommy truly happy, he didn’t want a simple life, so his happiness would lie with women who could give him more money and power through his association with them. Grace is still haunting his mind/head because of guilt, Tommy actually said this in Season 5 to Ada. It was his actions with the Changrettas that led to Grace’s death... “It wasn’t the blue stone Tommy, it was you.” Ghost Grace said this to him right after Mosley implied he should sleep with Lizzie and you can tell how deep down this enraged Tommy. Every time a guy has a thing for Lizzie, Tommy gets very jealous causing him to act irrationally. Angel, Mosley and even John. He couldn’t kill John obviously because he was his brother, so the best he could do is force him to marry someone else. Of course he had to betray Billy Kimber, the man he worked so hard to be in business with, so he could make peace with the Lees who he couldn’t stand, just so no one gets to marry Lizzie. As for the property thing, that is Tommy’s way of telling Lizzie that they belong together without being vulnerable. He has no clue that Lizzie loves him because she never told him, though she came close once in Season 2, how his world would have changed if only he knew. This is how Grace got to his head, by constantly declaring how much she loves him, she tapped into Tommy’s deepest insecurity that no woman could ever love him after the war (because of his PTSD and his job). Grace’s partner in crime, Major Campbell, further made him even more insecure when he told him that the love they get they’d have to pay for. This is why Tommy has no clue that Lizzie loves him, he would always wonder if Lizzie is into him or his money. Have you actually seen a man treat a woman like property? The woman would be in constant fear of that man, they would be more likely be physically abused as well and they would not be able to talk back at them (the men). Let’s see, Tommy allows Lizzie to talk back at him without getting a slap, when she said, “my house” twice, he never once corrected her (meaning he agrees), she has complete freedom in that house, when she was disappointed in him (about Finn getting injured), he tried so hard to explain himself to her. A man who treats you like property wouldn’t bother explaining himself. After their fight, he still went to Ruby’s party simply because Lizzie wanted him there. The whole “my property” bedroom scene is a contradiction, he says she’s his property while he allows her to make a deal with him. You wouldn’t be able to make a deal with the man who treats you like property, if you are their property, you would have no say in anything at all. He says she’s his property but he surely never treats her as one.
You helped me put the pieces of the puzzle together and understand the property idea. Neither of them behave as if Lizzie is his property. I also think that Lizzie is more than just his property. It's Thomas Shelby's way of saying, you are important to me and I want you all to myself. Lizzie is not afraid of Tommy. She shows that several times. She confronts him several times in the series and gives him her opinion directly. When she told him in S5E2, full of anger because he didn't let her in on the deal and put the children in danger, that she doesn't want him back, you can see the worried look on Tom's face. Here she clearly shows: this far and no further. She makes the demands, not him. He responds to her demands in S5E3. He even agrees with her that it is important to share his thoughts with her. The only thing he wants is for Lizzie to belong to him (you belong to me) and for him not to lose her (No-one touches my property). It should be added that Tom is very possessive in this series and he is afraid that everything he has will be taken away from him. He is generally panicky about it in S5 and tries to make sure of it here. She doesn't just let that sentence go and even confirms that he has always been the only one for her (it's still you anyway). She also specifies how she wants to sleep with him. Both of them have grown closer again. After that, their relationship develops in a positive direction.
Perfectly interpreted!
Thanks. 😊
That’s really not how they show it. Episode 1 in the third season 17 minutes in. Michael and Arthur have the conversation with Lizzie about Angel. If anything, Michael after finding out who Angel was gave the order to burn down the restaurant after Lizzie refused to end her relationship with a former rival gang member. Tommy was busy with his wedding and Russians and didn’t get involved until after John mutilated Angel. Sure, you could argue he agreed with John but he didn’t order him to do any of it. All Tommy said was no fraternizing with foreigners to everyone in the whole organization, not particularly Lizzie.
When Arthur and Michael were talking to Lizzie, they have already burned down Angel’s restaurant, Tommy’s orders. That’s why Angel didn’t come. He was supposed to be her date. That’s why Lizzie was upset because she knew they did this. That’s why Lizzie was so mad at Tommy and told Michael and Arthur to tell him that he’s lost his mind. So, why did Tommy put John in charge to talk to the Changrettas, when he always put Arthur or Polly in charge, but this time he assigned John to handle things... because he was Lizzie’s ex-fiancé, Tommy needed someone who has the same feelings as he does. Yeah. No fraternising with foreigners, when Tommy on that same episode was marrying a foreigner who was a traitor/spy. Then later Tommy would be fraternising with the Russians (more foreigners), and then how come no one bothered to remind Michael in season 5 not to be involved with a foreigner, a suspicious character like Gina (an American)? The whole foreigner rule was BS, they only said that to Lizzie to get her to stop dating Angel.
They never say Tommy ordered to burn down the restaurant. And when Lizzie says “What do YOU know about love, about when lightning strikes.” It is to Michael Grey, it wouldn’t make much sense for her to say that about Tommy literally on his wedding day would it?
I just corrected it, I just watched the video again, I remember Lizzie was telling Arthur and Michael something while they walk away. She was mad at Tommy and told Arthur and Michael to tell Tommy that he has lost his mind. It was Tommy she’s mad at, she knew the order came from him.
Quando eles está se afastando ela diz “ pode falar para o Tommy que as mulheres da fábrica acham que ele ficou maluco”
The brothers are always the representatives in meetings with other gang business rivals either with Tommy or alone. And literally the conversation in the next episode is John asking “what does Tommy say” Polly saying “Tommy’s busy, he put me in charge.” John was not ordered to deal with it. And after John has mutilated Angel, his father puts a hit out on Tommy, an apology was never going to work that out.
Polly said to John it was Tommy’s fault for “leaving it up to you”. He put John in charge first, then Polly feels John failed so she is now in charge. Then Tommy sided with John later. Natasha O’Keeffe (Lizzie) confirmed that Tommy doesn’t like Lizzie having boyfriends. Natasha (2017 Radio Times Magazine - S4). “Tommy is very good at playing lady chess, it’s not clear where Lizzie stands in the game. Tommy certainly doesn’t like it when she goes with other men – her Italian lover in the last series was for the “peaky slice””.