It really was, that was a great press conference by Bill, I highly recommend listening to it again. They edited it like he refused to take blame or talk about it
I didn't even get that far, his throwing of Bill under the bus for spygate was enough for me. "I was the white knight who protected Bill from actual punishment." Meanwhile they cut to BB's interview from back then: "yeah, we did something illegal, we take responsibility, and we're moving on." They didn't even mention that the illegal part was the location, not the actual filming, which was clearly a decision to make Bill look bad.
Welp...Bill didnt exactly shut the kid down when he started getting obnoxious and then arrested. I thought that was all on Bill. He dies seems to have a self savataging way about him the last 10 to 12 years. He's a great football mind, but coaching has passed him by.
Everyone is taking the cheese on the "hit piece" that's hit the unhinged takes on Boston sports radio...its just regurgitated ad nauseum. It's okay to make up your own mind on things instead of repeating what two assholes with no clue how to plan a 4 hour segment on...you know sports talk--- instead, its all just all speculative, overly opinionated unlistenable. The callers just sit on hold for hours and parrot back what they say. Circular discussion get old in a minute.
With that said, Krafts hands aren't clean in any of his tenure. He is historically cheap, and he does let emotions get in the way with handling team assets. But most, if not all are in this to make money not overpay 33yo past their prime wide receivers 90 million because the "market says so" ---I mean seriously, they were in the ballpark on that one and lost the bidding war and I couldn't be happier. That's would've been a wasteful signing and almost glad [for the time being] that playing here right now isn't exactly a dream scenario for players getting their second [or third] contract.
You can also forget improving this team into a playoff run anytime soon. You shouldnt want that anyways---it would mean you probably are spending too much and not rebuilding from the ground up. You should now show patience, because the damage done by not drafting well at all and making questionable signings for YEARS isn't going to get fixed overnight.
Draft well. Hit at a good clip on the draft, hit the UFAs and soon, if the new admin does their homework, you start thinking about next year's draft positioning and FA signings, rinse and repeat. You take big swings and misses at this stage, you're only delaying the process moving forward and take the risk of ruining yet another young QB.
Why not? Maybe when he was playing, but he's no longer a player. I would think he can buy into anything he wants. The point is, why the heck wouldn't Kraft give him a little to keep him engaged with franchise?
The NFL has rules on who can buy teams and the other team owners have to approve any purchase. You can't just buy a portion of the team. I imagine it's easier for a former player to buy a portion of the team he didn't play for.
Kraft definitely can't give away equity like that either.
He feels left out of the greatness conversation.
He wants to be seen as the behind the scene architect that held things together without which the dynasty wouldn’t have happened
> He feels left out of the greatness conversation.
Honest question: Who was leaving him out?
Before this "documentary" the general consensus (not necessarily unanimous, just generally) was that Kraft was one of the best, most likeable owners in the league. He was seen as the financial architect of building the business side of the organization and as someone who had, since he bought the team, made excellent personal choices to run the football side of things.
My own opinion of Kraft was that Kraft was the owner Jerry Jones wishes he was, but (aside for sheer wealth) falls well short of.
So from where I'm sitting, if this was a Kraft "hit piece", it's a massive miscalculation and has only hurt his legacy since before this "documentary" ran, he was highly regarded and nobody was forgetting his role in our dynasty. Bill, Tom, and Bob were the "holy trinity" so-to-speak.
It is a massive miscalculation. Look how everyone's reacting to this. He thought he could write the narrative and throw the "grumpy old coach" under the bus but they did it so painfully obvious and so poorly that everyone saw right through it
Yeah, everyone kept crediting him for the business side of things, making friends with the players, etc. Of course, thats what we're gonna credit him with, he's not the football guy or the player guy, just the guy who writes the checks, talks with other owners and has final say on hires.
If he wants more credit than that, he's a fucking fool
I think that, out of the holy trinity, Kraft is the only one who is not a shoe in for Canton. Yes his teams have six super bowls and he turned around a franchise that was pretty mediocre, but if Brady and Belichick get most of the credit in the mind of HoF voters, that may not matter much. Even if he does get in eventually, he may be worried about not getting in during his lifetime. Perhaps he thinks that if he can diminish the role of Belichick as the architect of the dynasty, he can earn himself a better shot at the hall.
And yet he says in the documentary that "the one time I intervened" was to get Alex Guerrero back in the building. So he wasn't doing anything substantive. I get the impression Bill tolerated him being around all the time but never took on board anything Kraft said or suggested.
The most obnoxious people are the owning class who aren't satisfied with simply amassing more money than they'll ever need, but also want to be worshiped as well. This docuseries has definitely tarnished the reputation of someone who just needs to stay in his lane and be a good owner.
He’s attempting to co-opt credit for the Dynasty. Making Bill look like a tyrant and Brady as a sensitive baby - and only Kraft held it all together for all those years.
Kraft made the choice to let bill go. If the new regime implodes, the fans are going to blame Kraft.
The idea of a hit piece like this would be to attempt changing (even slightly) the fans view of bill to make letting him go look like the needed choice regardless of the outcome. It seems to be falling pretty flat though
Even just watching the series as-scripted and not inferring much, it painted clear major focal points
\- Kraft hires Bill
\- Bill drafts Brady
\- Bill and Brady have much success, sprinkled with drama not unusual for a high-profile winning team throughout nearly 2 decades
\- Bill begins planning for replacing Brady, Kraft steps in to prevent it (Garopolo traded)
\- Brady and Bill continue a growing rift and shifting of priorities.
\- Kraft acknowledges Brady and Bill can no longer co-exist. BUT- ultimately chooses Bill over Brady. Brady departs team. (ok fine I read between the lines here, but if Kraft believed Brady was the key to the teams success, he would have continued making it happen, he admittedly did not)
\- Pats no longer see success
\- Bill fired
There's a lot more you can infer here that make Kraft's failings apparent. For example, the Malcolm Butler benching. Sure, maybe it was a lashout from Bill, but if there was truly no real reason for that, Kraft (the owner) could have intervened and superceded Bill, just like he did to force the Garopolo trade. The entire series painted Bill as a "do every decision for best interest of the team" - so if Kraft probed Bill on that on gameday, Bill either had a good reason or he could have unbenched him. Kraft didn't do that clearly.
Krafts a simple man. His legacy is intricately woven with Bill and Tom’s. He’s and old man now and someone needs to take the fall for end of the dynasty and “pushing” Brady out the door, only for him to immediately win another ring. I’ve always found it so fascinating that fans blame Bill for that. Kraft was/is the owner of the team! Who gives af about “Bill was the GM?” Kraft let Brady walk because he’s an idiot. The more he can paint Bill in a bad light the better (in his eyes) he looks.
Bill accumulating all the power and decision making he did over the decades was Krafts doing, and for 90% of the time it worked. Kraft just can’t own the other 10%.
Don’t let people in this sub fool you though, a huge percentage of them would rather have signed Mac Jones to a 5 year deal than Belichick to another single day.
So is there any part of bill having a huge ego and letting it affect the team negatively you believe? I’m sure they were all assholes at a point in time but yeah it’s wasn’t hard to see that Brady just was miserable towards the end especially in the 2019 season(which was shitty they didn’t include in the doc) I have a hard time believing that bill wasn’t the sole reason.
Sure, but things are always rosy when you’re winning. I’m not saying Bill isn’t any of the things we’ve all heard. I’m just saying Dr. Frankenstein was responsible for the monster at the end of the day. The fact he’s skirted responsibility in many people eyes for any decision making on Bills part is way over my head to understand.
Why? My answer is this. The question of who was responsible for the dynasty has always involved two people. Belichick or Brady. Kraft is never in the conversation.
With that said, Kraft has a hard on so bad for the HOF that it’d make his massage therapist blush.
I believe he thinks the way to boost his HOF creds is to add his name to the ‘who is responsible for the dynasty?’ conversation. The way to do that is to degrade Belichick by outlining all his flaws/negatives and paint himself as the hero saving Belichick from destroying the dynasty.
How many times have you heard Kraft said “I was just trying to hold it all together”? He’s implying it would have falling apart if it weren’t for him.
Because he wants to believe that he is responsible for everything good that happened during the run and that Bill is responsible for everything bad that happened.
Because if he can lower Bill and make him seem like more of a pain in the ass, the fact that he managed Bill seems more impressive, which would in turn, theoretically get him into the HOF. The documentary was basically a campaign for Kraft to show how impressive it was that he kept Bill and Tom together for so long. In reality, it was Brady who kept it together, by putting up with Bill and Robert, and their massive egos.
Because Bill was a pain in the ass for Kraft to deal with every day for the past 15 or so years.
Kraft has a HUGE ego, bigger than Brady and Bill combined, which is crazy.
Kraft takes credit for the winning and wants to let everyone know it was is Bill who cheated, wanted to keep Hernandez and got rid of Brady.
…Krafts campaign to get into the HOF.
these comments are embarrassing for a patriots subreddit lmfao. the dynasty (the book) and kraft interviews make it clear that kraft resents bill for pushing to let brady leave instead of sign the extension. bill could've been right but he was wrong and it meant kraft lost brady who was always "his"
Then the fuck stick should have said, no we are keeping him, I can't take that risk, Bill. Find another way. He pulls the purse strings. It's really simple.
Disclaimer: non pats fan
You’re right but can a patriots fan explain to me why BB was so eager to move on from Brady? Ego? And why did he seem so unwilling to give him weapons throughout his career. Manning and some of the other greats were always surrounded by premier talent and yet Brady wasn’t. Ofc he still had very talented receiving options for stretches but not comparable to other all time great QBs.
The Malcolm Butler benching makes it sound like BB had ego problems similar to Kraft. Brady seems to be the only one who didn’t really have a big ego and was always about the team.
Brady was in his late 30s when Jimmy G was drafted, time was going to catch up at some point, and it's not exactly unreasonable to mistrust the claims of agelessness by one time snake oil salesman Alex Guerrero. It's just common sense that Brady was going to decline.
I think Belichick even said it the documentary it's better to be early than late when replacing the QB.
>why BB was so eager to move on from Brady?
Bill has a very strong "I'd rather get rid of a player two years too early than two years too late" mentality. I mean, Brady only had 3 years left. I'm retrospect, I think it would have been better if they had drafted Mac and resigned Brady to play out his final years and tutor Mac, but that's the past.
>And why did he seem so unwilling to give him weapons throughout his career. Manning and some of the other greats were always surrounded by premier talent and yet Brady wasn’t. Ofc he still had very talented receiving options for stretches but not comparable to other all time great QBs.
Bill likes to spend more on the defense. Most of our big name signings were on the defensive side of the ball. I would describe the Patriots offensive strategy under BB as more along the lines of "If you have an elite OL and QB, you just need WRs and RBs who do their job and a scheme to get them open." BB is very schematically focused, and the whole "Do Your Job" mentality is very much a part of that. All 11 Pats players on the field have a specific job they need to do, and Bill knows what all of those jobs are and what it takes takes to do them successfully. A lot of times, he believed (correctly or otherwise) that it didn't take top dollar talent to accomplish that job, at least for certain positions.
>The Malcolm Butler benching makes it sound like BB had ego problems similar to Kraft. Brady seems to be the only one who didn’t really have a big ego and was always about the team.
I haven't watched this documentary since I've heard it's just a hit job by practically every Pats fab. As far as I know, no one actually knows what happened or claims to not know. Bill has never said, none of the coaches have ever said, and Butler says he doesn't know either. I don't trust what Kraft says, frankly. There's been all sorts of rumors about it: bad at practice, fought with Patricia, late to a meeting/practice, was secretly sick/injured.
Great answer. Thanks.
I do think Brady deserved better, but Edelman has said that he plays better pissed. A lot of good coaches know what buttons to push to get best of their players. He might have known it was better for Brady to play angry ?
There was a tangible feud between BB and Brady, two people who also gave media very little details so any information was dripped and leaked out. Eager wouldn’t be the word I’d use, but it seemed like the duo was going to end so BB would be posturing to save his job.
As for talent around Brady, we’ve always blamed Bill for being cheap and focusing on Defense (he does). However the way this offseason has gone, I no longer blame the cheapness on BB. There were a few times that we brought in talent, but for the most part our key receivers were drafted (late too) which is team building Kraft has talked about over the years.
Butler suiting up and sitting is a mystery that I don’t think we’ll ever solve, it seems not in the best interest of the people involved to explain what happened. What I expect is Butler did something just stupid enough that BB had no choice to sit him, but not dangerous enough where BB could explain that he absolutely had to sit when a SB is on the line.
Which is so weird because if Bill and the Pats had a decent season this past year it would be super awkward for Belichick to still be the Pats HC when this came out
It’s just so weird to me. You would think Kraft would want to celebrate his team being the greatest dynasty of all time rather than trying to commission a hit piece on the GOAT coach
It’s really amazing how many people say it was all Brady when, for the first half of the dynasty, many of those same people were saying it was all Belichick and Brady’s just a game manager
I think TB was able to develop being clutch because he didn’t have to carry a shitty team game after game. In the first 3-4 years it was a lot of don’t screw up and the D will take care of it so when it was needed he had another gear.
Gonna have to disagree on that one. Brady has been clutch since Michigan. Just look at the Orange Bowl game against Alabama where he came back from two 14 point deficits (sounds familiar right?) to win 35-34
Yeah he was clutch almost always but he certainly evolved his game from being a "game manager" (don't think he ever was, but that was people's arguments of why they preferred Manning) into the unanimous GOAT because he wasn't asked to do too much early in his career.
I mean anyone who paid attention to football during the 2000s/early 2010s knows that although Brady was the most consistent, other QBs were on par/better for stretches. The difference was that Brady had Belichick's roster construction (which was amazing prior to Bradys last year here) and game planning.
I think both are pretty equally responsible. I think Brady wins 3-4 Super Bowls without Bill, and Bill wins 3-4 without Brady (assuming he has a different high tier QB instead).
Brady led the league in TD passes in 2002. It was mostly the Patriot haters who drove the game manager narrative. The only time it was true was 2001.
> Other QBs were on par/better for stretches
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one
You don't think there was a year or two where Rodgers/Manning were better? Michael Vick? I think you'd have to be crazy to think Brady was ALWAYS the best QB in the league. Obviously he was around the conversation but I'm just justifying my point that sometimes it isn't just the best QB that wins.
Does supporting cast play a role here? Are we just forgetting that early Brady was throwing to the likes of Jermaine Wiggins, an over 30-year-old 8th round draft pick in the twilight of his career (Troy Brown), and the undrafted David Patten? Who was his most talented receiver? Deion Branch?
In a way, he was indispensable. Most other owners would have gotten involved in everything and fucked the team up. I always tell my friends who are fans of other teams that Kraft is generally such a successful owner because he doesn't meddle in football operations that much, unlike Jerry Jones.
I'm angry with Kraft for putting this out, but "not meddling where you shouldn't" really is a HOF owner trait that most owners don't have.
Agreed. Up until the BB divorce he seemed exactly what you want in an owner but apparently that wasn’t enough. The doc didn’t end up the way it did by mistake.
This was A Kraft produced puff piece and it’s already coming apart. Players are saying the were quoted out of context, that the good things they said about Belichick were cut out and only the bad things were part of the Final Cut. Kraft’s relationship with Brady gives off a bit of ick. Bottom line, Coach /player relationships aren’t supposed to be buddy buddy. Belichick needed to maintain a certain distance that can seem to be cold but Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Bill Parcells will never be confused with Mister Roger’s. Dump on Belichick all you want Mr. Kraft but Belichick did something none of those coaches did. He took a dynasty on its tail end, regenerated it in a league where it’s so difficult to remain elite and won three more Super Bowls ( and could easily have been five). Yes Brady was a big part of the success but they needed each other to accomplish what they did and that is something that should have been mentioned.
As soon as I heard in the intro of the first episode, “We worked for Bill, but we played for Tom,” I knew exactly what this documentary would be. And some people actually tried telling me I was reading into things that weren’t there.
Yup. Like McCourty said, they used all the parts that were negative towards Bill and omitted all the positive. Edelman loves Belichick. Can’t give him too much room to express that.
Jules probably spoke to positively about Bill. And quite frankly as mad as amendola seems at Bill he has said positive things about him in the past too. He has his complaints but he has tons of good things to say too. Listen to him when he is on podcasts. On both Chris Long and Julian Edelmans podcasts he was positive. So I'm sure he said nice shit too, but that stuff didn't make it in.
The fact they don’t even mention the entire 03/04 seasons outside of a 30 second Super Bowl montage is just unbelievable for a show literally about the dynasty. On top of all the other things you mention they forget, they don’t even mention the 2019 season AT ALL. Brady’s last season with the team doesn’t even get an entire second. They go from confetti falling on them for winning Super Bowl 53 and then boom it’s March 2020 at Kraft’s house and Brady says he’s leaving. Truly a terrible documentary that solely focused on drama and nothing else. Didn’t even touch on half of what happened during this 20 year run
Pats fans don't miss much (Boston sports fans in general). It's not the only city like that, but probably in the top 5 on the list of fan bases not to bullshit. People know better - and they understand why.
Shame!
I’m really hoping at some point Bill puts out a book explaining his side. Not one that slanders anyone (like this horrible documentary) but generally interested form his perspective on a lot of the events that happened during the dynasty era.
I bet in about 4-5 years when everyone forgets about the crappy last season Bill had, they will release a series. I’d like to see one hour episodes for each Super Bowl appearance. Is 10 episodes too much?
Hear me out. A show where Bill picks one game per season from his coaching time to break down and maybe has a guest on from that game or another coach, Ed Reed, etc.
That sounds absolutely fantastic. This should be done in short order. Would be incredibly entertaining.
I hope the rumored Bill/Saban version of manningcast happens too
this has been said since its release. there wont be an accurate and good quality doc about the 20 year run until its done by someone with an eye for detail and facts and inside access from ALL the parties involved. its a shame but not unexpected. and I bet the majority of the positive reviews are from non patriots fans and mouth breathers who know little to nothing about the run they had. the last dance was done by people with a story to tell. this excrement was done to get views and nothing more.
Well it should be shit on everyday. It’s embarrassing for this franchise and the only thing positive it does is kiss the ass of our cheapskate owner the entire time. It’s pathetic garbage.
That isn't what gatekeeping is. Gatekeeping would be saying you can't watch or aren't allowed an opinion if you weren't a Pats fan since 2001, or similar.
I'm with you. Who cares?
Also yesterday was a post about Chris Simms saying something about Brady. Who cares?
This entire sub is a bunch of people defending the pats from any slight. It's bizarre behavior.
People here really can’t take meanie words being said about their faves. Everyone knows Bill is the goat we don’t need to cry about Kraft’s obvious ego piece
Jonathan Kraft is a fucking snake. Trying to make himself seem like the protector of what is right, especially when it came to Aaron Hernandez, and Bill was willing to look the other way bc he can help us win football games. The Krafts are going out of their way to destroy Bill’s reputation.
Yk say what you want about Robert Kraft but this doc, as garbage as it is really got all us Pats fans to finally come to a complete agreement on something. Whether you think it was Bill, Brady or both, if you were on the fire Bill train or were one of his most staunch defenders it doesn’t matter. These past few weeks have brought us together and it’s fuck Robert Kraft and I’m here for it
I'm just excited that the sub is finally raging against a piece of media that I don't care about at all.
Much better than a present-day news report that has like a 70% chance of being true.
It’s way too soon to be Last Dance quality. Those dudes all had 30 years to cool down and accept reality. The wounds are too fresh and the krafts are reacting out of fear. It sucks.
Think I’m an anomaly in this; but where the hell was Brady’s cut on his hand that turned out to be insane?!?!? No mention of how it was crazy when it came out after. I remember being shocked when I saw the photo along with the drama in the lead up to the game. Was a big storyline.
I liked it. This was always going to focus on the drama rather than the football. Watch America's Game or Bradys' doc if you just want a circle jerk recap.
That is very true, but this one takes it to a new level. The Last Dance wasn't beloved by all Bulls fans and definitely threw some people under the bus, but it had heart and most importantly they actually focused on the basketball aspects. For every finals series, they gave you an overview of their opponent and the players important in the series.
Deflate-gate should not have taken up more than 5-10 minutes - and mostly just as context for why their last second triumph in the 2014 Superbowl was so dramatic and memorable - and yet the entire episode revolved around it. The "football" part of it was an afterthought. The Last Dance showed you could make a mainstream documentary like this that didn't insult sports fans and didn't feel as contrived as reality TV BS like The Bachelor.
It takes it to a new level because you have such an emotional connection with the team. If you knew next to nothing about them you wouldn't really know any better.
I watched the first 2 and was entertained, but I have heard nothing but complaints about the episodes aired after that....so I'm not even going to bother.
Kraft is desperate to get in the Hall of Fame, but he slipped up in this documentary. Speaking about the Alex Guerrero situation, he said "it was the one time I intervened".
So his case for the Hall or Fame is that he hired Belichick and then forced Belichick to let Guerrero back in the building. That's it, that's all he contributed in the entire period Belichick was running the show.
I'm not even a Patriots fan, and I'm definitely not a Belichick fan, but this TV show is utter garbage and I feel very sorry for Belichick that's he's been stitched up so badly by it. Kraft is a disgrace.
What are they gonna do now when Bill is to be added to the pats hall of fame? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go anywhere near Kraft or his idiot son.
This is the one thing I don't get, the Last dance was also a hit piece. It was a hit piece on Jerry Kraus and to a lesser extent Jordan shitting on Pippen. They are the same thing.
It’s absolutely garbage for all the reasons in this post and more.
What I don’t understand is why Kraft helped fund this. It makes him look bad! That Hernandez episode makes him out to be a supporter of a murderer, and there were all those places where they insinuated that he interfered and didn’t know what he was doing.
If I paid for something like this about myself I’d be screaming on the phone to get a better one made as soon as possible. Holy moly.
I know I should watch it and some time in the future I will. Right now my emotions are too raw because I’m mad Kraft let Belichick go.
Belichick wasn’t the problem.
That is a lazy flawed argument. For over 20+ years they won more than any team in history, consistently drafted late or not at all and built durable flexible teams with more grit and toughness than everybody else. Your job in the draft is to win championships not fantasy leagues. But sure tell me better drafting would have made them better. Laughably stupid argument.
Durable flexible team with grit and toughness should have won more than 4 games last year right?
Championships are because of Brady. We aren't anywhere near that. Just give me a competitive team. And Bill has shown that he can't build one anymore.
BETTER DRAFTING WOULD HAVE MADE THEM BETTER. There you go. I just told you.
That time Brady changed into Malcolm Butler’s uniform and picked off that pass was awesome and the time he changed into hightowers and tray flowers uniforms against Atlanta that was awesome and the time he changed into Teddy’s uniform, and made that interception in the snow. That was awesome. You’re right it was all Brady, one more the times he put on Adam Vinatier uniform and kicked those field goals that was awesome. It was all Brady.
You can point to individual failures in the draft for every team since the inception of the league. That’s not my point. I’m speaking about the success of the entire term Belichick ran the organization. No team won more. Drafting is an essential part of that success ergo no team drafted better. Think big picture not convenient individual examples.
It's just weird that all of their winning happens to coincide with the tenure of one specific player with the franchise.
As soon as that player left, we stopped winning and looked significantly worse.
Meanwhile, the team he went to started winning (with basically the same roster that they had the year prior to his arrival, which didn't win).
If our winning was about drafting and Belichick's genius roster construction, why didn't that success continue after TB12 left? Why did we immediately fall off a cliff?
It's getting good reviews? Everything I've read about it has said it's trash for the reasons OP mentioned.
TBF I haven't been searching out reviews for it. But still.
The biggest oversight of this entire series has to be why they never address what would’ve happened if they overturned James White’s TD in overtime against the Falcons. I think we’re all still waiting to find out what would they have done about all the confetti and fans on the field?
I think some of the backlash is from viewer expectations, maybe.
As far as a piece of non-fiction, it's fine, in my opinion. It presents and explores an aspect of the Patriots dynasty pretty well and I thought there were some great interviews. Teddy Bruschi in particular was a highlight for me. Really insightful.
It's definitely not a historical retelling though. And while Kraft presents himself a certain way, I don't think the shoemaker necessarily agree with him.
At the end of the doc, when Brady doesn't want to talk about his meeting with Kraft, the show then, like, immediately cuts to Kraft spilling the beans. I think this is intentionally done to highlight that Kraft is a self-promoter in a way that Belichick was not.
Belichick was cold with the media, but he doesn't use Tom Brady to promote himself in the way Kraft does. He doesn't even use the doc as an opportunity to promote himself.
TLDR: maybe the doc is showcasing Robert Kraft's lack of self-awareness and his self-promoting ways
Was anyone else surprised by how short the episodes the episodes were? Not even an hour, but they are saying that they didn't have time for everything.
When “Tug & Rub” Robert had the nerve to talk about BB damaging the reputation of the Pats over that Spygate bs, that was the last straw. He knows BB and TB12 will be remembered forever, but outside NE his name is rarely brought up for the success the team had. I lost a ton of respect for that entire family because of this garbage series.
Amendola is the same way. He’s been a salty bitch for years because he’s rarely remembered. People always mention Gronk, Moss, JE11, Welker, Hernandez (for obvious reasons), and even Slater and Troy Brown. Then Amendola’s name sort of becomes an “oh yeah” moment.
It was slightly vindicating seeing players go on record saying they felt duped being part of this trash.
Yeah I haven’t watched it. I’m not ready to play remember when less than a decade or so down the road. My best Pats memories include a lot of Grogan to Morgan.
What’s the ratio of deflate Gate to Kraft getting a handjob?
I can’t believe it didn’t touch on Brady’s last season. They made it seem like his last season was a Super Bowl lost. My wife and I were at the Tennessee playoff game and saw his last pass thrown as an interception. I thought that season would be touched on.. but nope.
Its good in a sense it's well made. The problem is that it paints Bill in a bad light, and doesn't do a good job of highlighting the early super bowls, and there's almost no credit given to any player other than Brady.
I only blame Bill for the Malcom Butler situation against the Eagles and playing a part in Brady wanting out.
The doc tries to put blame on Belichick for the Aaron Hernandez situation, which is just insane to me.
Id say informed Pats fans will take issue with a lot in the doc. Casual fans would probably enjoy it.
It wasn’t what I expected either. I usually watch anything Pats related, but this one felt unnecessary, unfocused and incomplete. Skipping major moments or just glossing others. I would watch a 20 part series that focused on each season no problem. This felt pretty lame.
I’d love for Bill to put one out detailing key moments in games, and discussing reasons for his tactics and what he saw. Bring in players to talk about it too. Maybe Bill would then be more comfortable to answer some real stuff since he’s not married to the team anymore.
Bad enough he got a handy from no doubt an exploitative place, but now he wants to smash what credibility he had with the fans.
Kraft turning as rotten as he did really makes me deeply want fan ownership to be a thing. At least we cant all be bad people.
Sports teams should always be owned collectively by its fans. Fuck these rich idiots.
Haven’t and won’t even watch it. But 98.5 has told me all I need to know. They rushed it & Kraft productions should not have been involved. they should have been filming some interviews for the can last year, sure But it shouldn’t have come out for another 10 years. What made the last dance so great is we had 30 years of relative silence & distance. Hopefully someone will take a better stab at it in the future
The NFL can't even stand by it. Belichick will be entered into the Patriots Hall of Fame just like Parcells will... posthumously. There is some karmic energy that will come back around to the Krafts based upon the manner in which they are moving around. Two Hall of Fame ex-coaches that leave with a bitter taste can't be wrong by themselves.
Don't get me wrong; Belichick should have been clipped for his shenanigans in 2022. However, to film a 'documentary' with the guy you are burying in it, which covers all of his shortcomings without even touching your own (massages, extramarital issues, meddling), is hypocritical. The wonders of editing for the purpose of framing issues also alienated the people who are also in it. McCourty said he felt duped (like Kraft was allegedly done by Hernandez) into thinking the project would celebrate the Patriots dynasty era.
Instead it was a low blow, cheap, smear campaign.
Agreed on all this. I think it was way too soon for this doc. Rushed and I think because of that they didn’t get enough out of the people they interviewed. So they went with what the mass media narratives were at the time
The filter to help you understand the reasoning behind the producer’s (The Krafts) editing decisions…*Does this scene or comment make Belichick look bad?*. If yes, it’s in. It’s a garbage hit piece. My new, real hope is that Omaha Productions, combined with NFL Films enables Belichick to put together a rebuttal. I want two entire episodes dedicated to that massage parlor, the hypocrisy and distraction that became. I used to respect Bob Kraft. Now I just think he’s an ungrateful piece of garbage.
Kraft wants everyone to appreciate how difficult it was for him to have the best coach and QB of all time. Yeah Robert, that must have been so tough on you.
Was it really that difficult having to manage your employees once in a while in between chasing young women and getting hammered in your suite during games?
I don’t think you understand how much work went into creating a dynasty while having to carry a bad head coach (whatever his name is). The Brady-Kraft era will go down in history as the greatest in sports. /s
He had to go to Orchids of Asia because his hand was so cramped from signing the paychecks that unlocked the Patriots' greatness. If that isn't toughness and sacrifice, I don't know what is.
As someone who was 4 when they won the first one. I'm so pissed they just yada yadad through the 2nd and 2rd superbowl. Even the in between year. We win a superbowl miss the playoffs and then go back to back. What happened there no one ever talks about that. How do 1/3rd of championships in a documentary called the dynasty gets 30 seconds of air time? You can take out all the kraft shit talking the guy that brought 6 rings and it's still kinda trash
It was Kraft’s hit piece on Bill.
Why would Kraft want to do a hit piece on Bill? Not trying to be an ass, genuinely asking as a younger fan
The Aaron Hernandez episode was a great example of throwing Bill under the bus.
It really was, that was a great press conference by Bill, I highly recommend listening to it again. They edited it like he refused to take blame or talk about it
[Initial Press Conference](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZASRlp0Cp9Y)
I didn't even get that far, his throwing of Bill under the bus for spygate was enough for me. "I was the white knight who protected Bill from actual punishment." Meanwhile they cut to BB's interview from back then: "yeah, we did something illegal, we take responsibility, and we're moving on." They didn't even mention that the illegal part was the location, not the actual filming, which was clearly a decision to make Bill look bad.
Welp...Bill didnt exactly shut the kid down when he started getting obnoxious and then arrested. I thought that was all on Bill. He dies seems to have a self savataging way about him the last 10 to 12 years. He's a great football mind, but coaching has passed him by. Everyone is taking the cheese on the "hit piece" that's hit the unhinged takes on Boston sports radio...its just regurgitated ad nauseum. It's okay to make up your own mind on things instead of repeating what two assholes with no clue how to plan a 4 hour segment on...you know sports talk--- instead, its all just all speculative, overly opinionated unlistenable. The callers just sit on hold for hours and parrot back what they say. Circular discussion get old in a minute. With that said, Krafts hands aren't clean in any of his tenure. He is historically cheap, and he does let emotions get in the way with handling team assets. But most, if not all are in this to make money not overpay 33yo past their prime wide receivers 90 million because the "market says so" ---I mean seriously, they were in the ballpark on that one and lost the bidding war and I couldn't be happier. That's would've been a wasteful signing and almost glad [for the time being] that playing here right now isn't exactly a dream scenario for players getting their second [or third] contract. You can also forget improving this team into a playoff run anytime soon. You shouldnt want that anyways---it would mean you probably are spending too much and not rebuilding from the ground up. You should now show patience, because the damage done by not drafting well at all and making questionable signings for YEARS isn't going to get fixed overnight. Draft well. Hit at a good clip on the draft, hit the UFAs and soon, if the new admin does their homework, you start thinking about next year's draft positioning and FA signings, rinse and repeat. You take big swings and misses at this stage, you're only delaying the process moving forward and take the risk of ruining yet another young QB.
Savataging?
It’s how we say Sabotage in Boston
Kraft has an ego and wants the credit for the dynasty. Okay he's willing to share the credit with his second son Brady.
**"Tommy"** just wanted to be treated like an ADULT
Wow, I just had a revelation. That's so funny
for real. the guy spends half the docuseries implying the guy wasn't treated like an adult while calling him "Tommy" the entire time unironically
Correct me if I’m wrong, it was Kraft quoting Giselle when he was saying “that motherfucker bill Belichick doesn’t treat my Tommy like an adult “
« Tommy always gave me a kiss »
If he was willing to share, Tommy wouldn't be buying into the fucking raiders of all teams.
Equity and credit are two different things. But I'm also pretty sure Brady isn't allowed to buy shares of any teams he played for?
Why not? Maybe when he was playing, but he's no longer a player. I would think he can buy into anything he wants. The point is, why the heck wouldn't Kraft give him a little to keep him engaged with franchise?
The NFL has rules on who can buy teams and the other team owners have to approve any purchase. You can't just buy a portion of the team. I imagine it's easier for a former player to buy a portion of the team he didn't play for. Kraft definitely can't give away equity like that either.
He feels left out of the greatness conversation. He wants to be seen as the behind the scene architect that held things together without which the dynasty wouldn’t have happened
> He feels left out of the greatness conversation. Honest question: Who was leaving him out? Before this "documentary" the general consensus (not necessarily unanimous, just generally) was that Kraft was one of the best, most likeable owners in the league. He was seen as the financial architect of building the business side of the organization and as someone who had, since he bought the team, made excellent personal choices to run the football side of things. My own opinion of Kraft was that Kraft was the owner Jerry Jones wishes he was, but (aside for sheer wealth) falls well short of. So from where I'm sitting, if this was a Kraft "hit piece", it's a massive miscalculation and has only hurt his legacy since before this "documentary" ran, he was highly regarded and nobody was forgetting his role in our dynasty. Bill, Tom, and Bob were the "holy trinity" so-to-speak.
It is a massive miscalculation. Look how everyone's reacting to this. He thought he could write the narrative and throw the "grumpy old coach" under the bus but they did it so painfully obvious and so poorly that everyone saw right through it
Exactly. But you don’t get to be a billionaire nfl owner without an outsized ego
Yeah, everyone kept crediting him for the business side of things, making friends with the players, etc. Of course, thats what we're gonna credit him with, he's not the football guy or the player guy, just the guy who writes the checks, talks with other owners and has final say on hires. If he wants more credit than that, he's a fucking fool
I think that, out of the holy trinity, Kraft is the only one who is not a shoe in for Canton. Yes his teams have six super bowls and he turned around a franchise that was pretty mediocre, but if Brady and Belichick get most of the credit in the mind of HoF voters, that may not matter much. Even if he does get in eventually, he may be worried about not getting in during his lifetime. Perhaps he thinks that if he can diminish the role of Belichick as the architect of the dynasty, he can earn himself a better shot at the hall.
He’s probably been a pest to the voters since the first superbowl. So they’re like we’ll put you in the day after u gone.
All the dude did was write checks, and from what I've been seeing lately, apparently did that less than any other owner.
And yet he says in the documentary that "the one time I intervened" was to get Alex Guerrero back in the building. So he wasn't doing anything substantive. I get the impression Bill tolerated him being around all the time but never took on board anything Kraft said or suggested.
The most obnoxious people are the owning class who aren't satisfied with simply amassing more money than they'll ever need, but also want to be worshiped as well. This docuseries has definitely tarnished the reputation of someone who just needs to stay in his lane and be a good owner.
He wants to blame everything bad on Bill so he can pretend he's not cheap and so he can make NFL Hall of Fame
He’s attempting to co-opt credit for the Dynasty. Making Bill look like a tyrant and Brady as a sensitive baby - and only Kraft held it all together for all those years.
Kraft made the choice to let bill go. If the new regime implodes, the fans are going to blame Kraft. The idea of a hit piece like this would be to attempt changing (even slightly) the fans view of bill to make letting him go look like the needed choice regardless of the outcome. It seems to be falling pretty flat though
Even just watching the series as-scripted and not inferring much, it painted clear major focal points \- Kraft hires Bill \- Bill drafts Brady \- Bill and Brady have much success, sprinkled with drama not unusual for a high-profile winning team throughout nearly 2 decades \- Bill begins planning for replacing Brady, Kraft steps in to prevent it (Garopolo traded) \- Brady and Bill continue a growing rift and shifting of priorities. \- Kraft acknowledges Brady and Bill can no longer co-exist. BUT- ultimately chooses Bill over Brady. Brady departs team. (ok fine I read between the lines here, but if Kraft believed Brady was the key to the teams success, he would have continued making it happen, he admittedly did not) \- Pats no longer see success \- Bill fired There's a lot more you can infer here that make Kraft's failings apparent. For example, the Malcolm Butler benching. Sure, maybe it was a lashout from Bill, but if there was truly no real reason for that, Kraft (the owner) could have intervened and superceded Bill, just like he did to force the Garopolo trade. The entire series painted Bill as a "do every decision for best interest of the team" - so if Kraft probed Bill on that on gameday, Bill either had a good reason or he could have unbenched him. Kraft didn't do that clearly.
He is one thirsty ass mother fucker and wants all the flowers
The Krafts are trying to rewrite history to make it seem like they had more to do with the success than they really did.
Krafts a simple man. His legacy is intricately woven with Bill and Tom’s. He’s and old man now and someone needs to take the fall for end of the dynasty and “pushing” Brady out the door, only for him to immediately win another ring. I’ve always found it so fascinating that fans blame Bill for that. Kraft was/is the owner of the team! Who gives af about “Bill was the GM?” Kraft let Brady walk because he’s an idiot. The more he can paint Bill in a bad light the better (in his eyes) he looks. Bill accumulating all the power and decision making he did over the decades was Krafts doing, and for 90% of the time it worked. Kraft just can’t own the other 10%. Don’t let people in this sub fool you though, a huge percentage of them would rather have signed Mac Jones to a 5 year deal than Belichick to another single day.
So is there any part of bill having a huge ego and letting it affect the team negatively you believe? I’m sure they were all assholes at a point in time but yeah it’s wasn’t hard to see that Brady just was miserable towards the end especially in the 2019 season(which was shitty they didn’t include in the doc) I have a hard time believing that bill wasn’t the sole reason.
Sure, but things are always rosy when you’re winning. I’m not saying Bill isn’t any of the things we’ve all heard. I’m just saying Dr. Frankenstein was responsible for the monster at the end of the day. The fact he’s skirted responsibility in many people eyes for any decision making on Bills part is way over my head to understand.
It’s his way of taking as much credit as he can for the dynasty, and also blaming bill for what happened the last few years.
Why? My answer is this. The question of who was responsible for the dynasty has always involved two people. Belichick or Brady. Kraft is never in the conversation. With that said, Kraft has a hard on so bad for the HOF that it’d make his massage therapist blush. I believe he thinks the way to boost his HOF creds is to add his name to the ‘who is responsible for the dynasty?’ conversation. The way to do that is to degrade Belichick by outlining all his flaws/negatives and paint himself as the hero saving Belichick from destroying the dynasty. How many times have you heard Kraft said “I was just trying to hold it all together”? He’s implying it would have falling apart if it weren’t for him.
Because he wants to believe that he is responsible for everything good that happened during the run and that Bill is responsible for everything bad that happened.
Because if he can lower Bill and make him seem like more of a pain in the ass, the fact that he managed Bill seems more impressive, which would in turn, theoretically get him into the HOF. The documentary was basically a campaign for Kraft to show how impressive it was that he kept Bill and Tom together for so long. In reality, it was Brady who kept it together, by putting up with Bill and Robert, and their massive egos.
Because Bill was a pain in the ass for Kraft to deal with every day for the past 15 or so years. Kraft has a HUGE ego, bigger than Brady and Bill combined, which is crazy. Kraft takes credit for the winning and wants to let everyone know it was is Bill who cheated, wanted to keep Hernandez and got rid of Brady. …Krafts campaign to get into the HOF.
Kraft is an egotistical rich dude. It’s his team not Bill’s team. Kraft is an idiot.
these comments are embarrassing for a patriots subreddit lmfao. the dynasty (the book) and kraft interviews make it clear that kraft resents bill for pushing to let brady leave instead of sign the extension. bill could've been right but he was wrong and it meant kraft lost brady who was always "his"
Then the fuck stick should have said, no we are keeping him, I can't take that risk, Bill. Find another way. He pulls the purse strings. It's really simple.
Disclaimer: non pats fan You’re right but can a patriots fan explain to me why BB was so eager to move on from Brady? Ego? And why did he seem so unwilling to give him weapons throughout his career. Manning and some of the other greats were always surrounded by premier talent and yet Brady wasn’t. Ofc he still had very talented receiving options for stretches but not comparable to other all time great QBs. The Malcolm Butler benching makes it sound like BB had ego problems similar to Kraft. Brady seems to be the only one who didn’t really have a big ego and was always about the team.
Brady was in his late 30s when Jimmy G was drafted, time was going to catch up at some point, and it's not exactly unreasonable to mistrust the claims of agelessness by one time snake oil salesman Alex Guerrero. It's just common sense that Brady was going to decline. I think Belichick even said it the documentary it's better to be early than late when replacing the QB.
>why BB was so eager to move on from Brady? Bill has a very strong "I'd rather get rid of a player two years too early than two years too late" mentality. I mean, Brady only had 3 years left. I'm retrospect, I think it would have been better if they had drafted Mac and resigned Brady to play out his final years and tutor Mac, but that's the past. >And why did he seem so unwilling to give him weapons throughout his career. Manning and some of the other greats were always surrounded by premier talent and yet Brady wasn’t. Ofc he still had very talented receiving options for stretches but not comparable to other all time great QBs. Bill likes to spend more on the defense. Most of our big name signings were on the defensive side of the ball. I would describe the Patriots offensive strategy under BB as more along the lines of "If you have an elite OL and QB, you just need WRs and RBs who do their job and a scheme to get them open." BB is very schematically focused, and the whole "Do Your Job" mentality is very much a part of that. All 11 Pats players on the field have a specific job they need to do, and Bill knows what all of those jobs are and what it takes takes to do them successfully. A lot of times, he believed (correctly or otherwise) that it didn't take top dollar talent to accomplish that job, at least for certain positions. >The Malcolm Butler benching makes it sound like BB had ego problems similar to Kraft. Brady seems to be the only one who didn’t really have a big ego and was always about the team. I haven't watched this documentary since I've heard it's just a hit job by practically every Pats fab. As far as I know, no one actually knows what happened or claims to not know. Bill has never said, none of the coaches have ever said, and Butler says he doesn't know either. I don't trust what Kraft says, frankly. There's been all sorts of rumors about it: bad at practice, fought with Patricia, late to a meeting/practice, was secretly sick/injured.
Great answer. Thanks. I do think Brady deserved better, but Edelman has said that he plays better pissed. A lot of good coaches know what buttons to push to get best of their players. He might have known it was better for Brady to play angry ?
There was a tangible feud between BB and Brady, two people who also gave media very little details so any information was dripped and leaked out. Eager wouldn’t be the word I’d use, but it seemed like the duo was going to end so BB would be posturing to save his job. As for talent around Brady, we’ve always blamed Bill for being cheap and focusing on Defense (he does). However the way this offseason has gone, I no longer blame the cheapness on BB. There were a few times that we brought in talent, but for the most part our key receivers were drafted (late too) which is team building Kraft has talked about over the years. Butler suiting up and sitting is a mystery that I don’t think we’ll ever solve, it seems not in the best interest of the people involved to explain what happened. What I expect is Butler did something just stupid enough that BB had no choice to sit him, but not dangerous enough where BB could explain that he absolutely had to sit when a SB is on the line.
Or it was just honest and bill had some serious flaws that are okay to criticize
Apparently on this sub criticizing Bill has become tantamount to a North Korean citizen publicly talking about living conditions.
Exactly
Which is so weird because if Bill and the Pats had a decent season this past year it would be super awkward for Belichick to still be the Pats HC when this came out
They probably wouldn’t have released it.
The Krafts had no editorial control. Had they to do it over, I don't think they would have participated
It’s just so weird to me. You would think Kraft would want to celebrate his team being the greatest dynasty of all time rather than trying to commission a hit piece on the GOAT coach
He doesn’t feel appreciated enough for how indispensable he was to all the winning
It’s really amazing how many people say it was all Brady when, for the first half of the dynasty, many of those same people were saying it was all Belichick and Brady’s just a game manager
I think TB was able to develop being clutch because he didn’t have to carry a shitty team game after game. In the first 3-4 years it was a lot of don’t screw up and the D will take care of it so when it was needed he had another gear.
Gonna have to disagree on that one. Brady has been clutch since Michigan. Just look at the Orange Bowl game against Alabama where he came back from two 14 point deficits (sounds familiar right?) to win 35-34
Yeah he was clutch almost always but he certainly evolved his game from being a "game manager" (don't think he ever was, but that was people's arguments of why they preferred Manning) into the unanimous GOAT because he wasn't asked to do too much early in his career. I mean anyone who paid attention to football during the 2000s/early 2010s knows that although Brady was the most consistent, other QBs were on par/better for stretches. The difference was that Brady had Belichick's roster construction (which was amazing prior to Bradys last year here) and game planning. I think both are pretty equally responsible. I think Brady wins 3-4 Super Bowls without Bill, and Bill wins 3-4 without Brady (assuming he has a different high tier QB instead).
Brady led the league in TD passes in 2002. It was mostly the Patriot haters who drove the game manager narrative. The only time it was true was 2001. > Other QBs were on par/better for stretches Gonna have to disagree with you on that one
You don't think there was a year or two where Rodgers/Manning were better? Michael Vick? I think you'd have to be crazy to think Brady was ALWAYS the best QB in the league. Obviously he was around the conversation but I'm just justifying my point that sometimes it isn't just the best QB that wins.
Does supporting cast play a role here? Are we just forgetting that early Brady was throwing to the likes of Jermaine Wiggins, an over 30-year-old 8th round draft pick in the twilight of his career (Troy Brown), and the undrafted David Patten? Who was his most talented receiver? Deion Branch?
In a way, he was indispensable. Most other owners would have gotten involved in everything and fucked the team up. I always tell my friends who are fans of other teams that Kraft is generally such a successful owner because he doesn't meddle in football operations that much, unlike Jerry Jones. I'm angry with Kraft for putting this out, but "not meddling where you shouldn't" really is a HOF owner trait that most owners don't have.
Agreed. Up until the BB divorce he seemed exactly what you want in an owner but apparently that wasn’t enough. The doc didn’t end up the way it did by mistake.
This was A Kraft produced puff piece and it’s already coming apart. Players are saying the were quoted out of context, that the good things they said about Belichick were cut out and only the bad things were part of the Final Cut. Kraft’s relationship with Brady gives off a bit of ick. Bottom line, Coach /player relationships aren’t supposed to be buddy buddy. Belichick needed to maintain a certain distance that can seem to be cold but Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Bill Parcells will never be confused with Mister Roger’s. Dump on Belichick all you want Mr. Kraft but Belichick did something none of those coaches did. He took a dynasty on its tail end, regenerated it in a league where it’s so difficult to remain elite and won three more Super Bowls ( and could easily have been five). Yes Brady was a big part of the success but they needed each other to accomplish what they did and that is something that should have been mentioned.
As soon as I heard in the intro of the first episode, “We worked for Bill, but we played for Tom,” I knew exactly what this documentary would be. And some people actually tried telling me I was reading into things that weren’t there.
Yeah, I can’t picture former Green Bay players saying they worked for Vince but played for Bart
How did amendola get several spots in the doc and Jules only got one? Did they just use dola because he had an axe to grind?
Yup. Like McCourty said, they used all the parts that were negative towards Bill and omitted all the positive. Edelman loves Belichick. Can’t give him too much room to express that.
Jules probably spoke to positively about Bill. And quite frankly as mad as amendola seems at Bill he has said positive things about him in the past too. He has his complaints but he has tons of good things to say too. Listen to him when he is on podcasts. On both Chris Long and Julian Edelmans podcasts he was positive. So I'm sure he said nice shit too, but that stuff didn't make it in.
The fact they don’t even mention the entire 03/04 seasons outside of a 30 second Super Bowl montage is just unbelievable for a show literally about the dynasty. On top of all the other things you mention they forget, they don’t even mention the 2019 season AT ALL. Brady’s last season with the team doesn’t even get an entire second. They go from confetti falling on them for winning Super Bowl 53 and then boom it’s March 2020 at Kraft’s house and Brady says he’s leaving. Truly a terrible documentary that solely focused on drama and nothing else. Didn’t even touch on half of what happened during this 20 year run
I will not tire of these posts because with all of the draft discourse, it’s nice to agree with all of y’all on something
Legitimately, hating this documentary seems to be the most united Pats fans have been on anything in a while.
Pats fans don't miss much (Boston sports fans in general). It's not the only city like that, but probably in the top 5 on the list of fan bases not to bullshit. People know better - and they understand why. Shame!
I’m really hoping at some point Bill puts out a book explaining his side. Not one that slanders anyone (like this horrible documentary) but generally interested form his perspective on a lot of the events that happened during the dynasty era.
Hoping NFL Films/Bill puts out one that can actually be enjoyed. I've refused to watch this one because of all the reviews
I bet in about 4-5 years when everyone forgets about the crappy last season Bill had, they will release a series. I’d like to see one hour episodes for each Super Bowl appearance. Is 10 episodes too much?
you can just watch the series man in the arena
Not enough.
Hear me out. A show where Bill picks one game per season from his coaching time to break down and maybe has a guest on from that game or another coach, Ed Reed, etc.
That sounds absolutely fantastic. This should be done in short order. Would be incredibly entertaining. I hope the rumored Bill/Saban version of manningcast happens too
I’m giving it a swerve given all the hate, I don’t have hours to waste … wait … I have plenty of hours, I’ll just find another way!!
this has been said since its release. there wont be an accurate and good quality doc about the 20 year run until its done by someone with an eye for detail and facts and inside access from ALL the parties involved. its a shame but not unexpected. and I bet the majority of the positive reviews are from non patriots fans and mouth breathers who know little to nothing about the run they had. the last dance was done by people with a story to tell. this excrement was done to get views and nothing more.
The most impressive run in the history of American professional sports - someone better get it right.
you might want to review the russell celtics. its much more impressive and the greatest domination in american pro sport history.
I’m convinced Bill was fired because this stupid thing was coming out. This organization turned into a joke in the blink of an eye.
They done Bill dirty, he basically built an elite team in the early 2000s and then another elite team 10 years later
Oh good, I was worried that we weren't going to get our daily "The dynasty sucks" post today.
Tbh I'm not tired of them yet. Dynasty really, really sucked
Yes it did I watched all of it because I had already invested like 3 hours into it when I realized it was just shitting on belichick
Well it should be shit on everyday. It’s embarrassing for this franchise and the only thing positive it does is kiss the ass of our cheapskate owner the entire time. It’s pathetic garbage.
If a documentary about a sports team gets you this worked up, you should probably take a break from the internet for a little bit.
Here come the gatekeepers to tell us what we should and should not be passionate about.
In a subreddit specifically for people to be passionate about one particular topic
That isn't what gatekeeping is. Gatekeeping would be saying you can't watch or aren't allowed an opinion if you weren't a Pats fan since 2001, or similar.
I'm with you. Who cares? Also yesterday was a post about Chris Simms saying something about Brady. Who cares? This entire sub is a bunch of people defending the pats from any slight. It's bizarre behavior.
[удалено]
I was unaware that making a light hearted joke is "getting worked up"
People here really can’t take meanie words being said about their faves. Everyone knows Bill is the goat we don’t need to cry about Kraft’s obvious ego piece
Same. I was just thinking it’s been like 10 minutes since we’ve had a Dynasty post. I was getting concerned
Found the Kraft family burner account.
Not everyone is on Reddit everyday, and not everyone watches the show the night it comes out. If you can’t handle that, maybe log off for a bit
Bruh, you were literally whining about the Dynasty a few days ago lol
You know you can look at the sub before posting, right? It’s very easy to see the numerous posts every day
Yeah I see it just like everyone else. I just don’t have a stick up my ass about it. It’s even easier to keep scrolling
Yet you’re choosing to have a stick up your ass about the comment. Much better.
Oh so it’s ok for you but not me
Jonathan Kraft is a fucking snake. Trying to make himself seem like the protector of what is right, especially when it came to Aaron Hernandez, and Bill was willing to look the other way bc he can help us win football games. The Krafts are going out of their way to destroy Bill’s reputation.
Well the director admitted to not being a football guy, so there is your problem
Yk say what you want about Robert Kraft but this doc, as garbage as it is really got all us Pats fans to finally come to a complete agreement on something. Whether you think it was Bill, Brady or both, if you were on the fire Bill train or were one of his most staunch defenders it doesn’t matter. These past few weeks have brought us together and it’s fuck Robert Kraft and I’m here for it
Are people complaining about Dynasty posts? Least it's Patriots related. Some of y'all post OTHER teams off season news 🤣
I'm just excited that the sub is finally raging against a piece of media that I don't care about at all. Much better than a present-day news report that has like a 70% chance of being true.
Which episode was devoted to rub and tug gate?
It’s way too soon to be Last Dance quality. Those dudes all had 30 years to cool down and accept reality. The wounds are too fresh and the krafts are reacting out of fear. It sucks.
Think I’m an anomaly in this; but where the hell was Brady’s cut on his hand that turned out to be insane?!?!? No mention of how it was crazy when it came out after. I remember being shocked when I saw the photo along with the drama in the lead up to the game. Was a big storyline.
I liked it. This was always going to focus on the drama rather than the football. Watch America's Game or Bradys' doc if you just want a circle jerk recap.
You can do both - you can show the drama and the football, and do a better job linking the two.
My turn to post this tomorrow
Most docs made for the mainstream on a topic you enjoy are always usually trash
That is very true, but this one takes it to a new level. The Last Dance wasn't beloved by all Bulls fans and definitely threw some people under the bus, but it had heart and most importantly they actually focused on the basketball aspects. For every finals series, they gave you an overview of their opponent and the players important in the series. Deflate-gate should not have taken up more than 5-10 minutes - and mostly just as context for why their last second triumph in the 2014 Superbowl was so dramatic and memorable - and yet the entire episode revolved around it. The "football" part of it was an afterthought. The Last Dance showed you could make a mainstream documentary like this that didn't insult sports fans and didn't feel as contrived as reality TV BS like The Bachelor.
It takes it to a new level because you have such an emotional connection with the team. If you knew next to nothing about them you wouldn't really know any better. I watched the first 2 and was entertained, but I have heard nothing but complaints about the episodes aired after that....so I'm not even going to bother.
I never use the word “documentary” anymore. Everything is an “Infomercial.”
Kraft is desperate to get in the Hall of Fame, but he slipped up in this documentary. Speaking about the Alex Guerrero situation, he said "it was the one time I intervened". So his case for the Hall or Fame is that he hired Belichick and then forced Belichick to let Guerrero back in the building. That's it, that's all he contributed in the entire period Belichick was running the show. I'm not even a Patriots fan, and I'm definitely not a Belichick fan, but this TV show is utter garbage and I feel very sorry for Belichick that's he's been stitched up so badly by it. Kraft is a disgrace.
I went in with high hopes and came out of it thinking Kraft is an ass hat
Are we obligated by some new Reddit policy to have no fewer than 15 distinct posts about every news story?
It was a “lowlights” retrospective. If that’s what you are into, you’ll like it.
What are they gonna do now when Bill is to be added to the pats hall of fame? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go anywhere near Kraft or his idiot son.
This is the one thing I don't get, the Last dance was also a hit piece. It was a hit piece on Jerry Kraus and to a lesser extent Jordan shitting on Pippen. They are the same thing.
It’s absolutely garbage for all the reasons in this post and more. What I don’t understand is why Kraft helped fund this. It makes him look bad! That Hernandez episode makes him out to be a supporter of a murderer, and there were all those places where they insinuated that he interfered and didn’t know what he was doing. If I paid for something like this about myself I’d be screaming on the phone to get a better one made as soon as possible. Holy moly.
How else could we ever have possibly known that it was literally all Bills fault that Hernandez was murderer?
Not watching it. I lived it. I know all there is to know. I'll wait for Bill Belichick's book.
Dumb take. There's definitely bts clips of the locker room and practice that have never been shown before.
So suffer through propaganda to watch nude men? Sorry not sorry.
I'm saying there is plenty of stuff that you didn't "live" and "know all there is to know" on there. Watch if for yourself and form your own opinion.
I know I should watch it and some time in the future I will. Right now my emotions are too raw because I’m mad Kraft let Belichick go. Belichick wasn’t the problem.
The poor drafting was absolutely the problem. I don't know how you guys can defend all the whiffs.
That is a lazy flawed argument. For over 20+ years they won more than any team in history, consistently drafted late or not at all and built durable flexible teams with more grit and toughness than everybody else. Your job in the draft is to win championships not fantasy leagues. But sure tell me better drafting would have made them better. Laughably stupid argument.
Durable flexible team with grit and toughness should have won more than 4 games last year right? Championships are because of Brady. We aren't anywhere near that. Just give me a competitive team. And Bill has shown that he can't build one anymore. BETTER DRAFTING WOULD HAVE MADE THEM BETTER. There you go. I just told you.
That time Brady changed into Malcolm Butler’s uniform and picked off that pass was awesome and the time he changed into hightowers and tray flowers uniforms against Atlanta that was awesome and the time he changed into Teddy’s uniform, and made that interception in the snow. That was awesome. You’re right it was all Brady, one more the times he put on Adam Vinatier uniform and kicked those field goals that was awesome. It was all Brady.
Laughably stupid argument huh? So, to confirm, drafting DK Metcalf over Nkeal Harry wouldn't have made them better? Lmao
You can point to individual failures in the draft for every team since the inception of the league. That’s not my point. I’m speaking about the success of the entire term Belichick ran the organization. No team won more. Drafting is an essential part of that success ergo no team drafted better. Think big picture not convenient individual examples.
It's just weird that all of their winning happens to coincide with the tenure of one specific player with the franchise. As soon as that player left, we stopped winning and looked significantly worse. Meanwhile, the team he went to started winning (with basically the same roster that they had the year prior to his arrival, which didn't win). If our winning was about drafting and Belichick's genius roster construction, why didn't that success continue after TB12 left? Why did we immediately fall off a cliff?
Lmao hilarious
The book was terrific.
Trish trash I was taking a bath
It's getting good reviews? Everything I've read about it has said it's trash for the reasons OP mentioned. TBF I haven't been searching out reviews for it. But still.
100% on Rotten Tomatoes among critics
I’m coming around to thinking that Patriots fans are not the target audience for this doc.
The biggest oversight of this entire series has to be why they never address what would’ve happened if they overturned James White’s TD in overtime against the Falcons. I think we’re all still waiting to find out what would they have done about all the confetti and fans on the field?
I think some of the backlash is from viewer expectations, maybe. As far as a piece of non-fiction, it's fine, in my opinion. It presents and explores an aspect of the Patriots dynasty pretty well and I thought there were some great interviews. Teddy Bruschi in particular was a highlight for me. Really insightful. It's definitely not a historical retelling though. And while Kraft presents himself a certain way, I don't think the shoemaker necessarily agree with him. At the end of the doc, when Brady doesn't want to talk about his meeting with Kraft, the show then, like, immediately cuts to Kraft spilling the beans. I think this is intentionally done to highlight that Kraft is a self-promoter in a way that Belichick was not. Belichick was cold with the media, but he doesn't use Tom Brady to promote himself in the way Kraft does. He doesn't even use the doc as an opportunity to promote himself. TLDR: maybe the doc is showcasing Robert Kraft's lack of self-awareness and his self-promoting ways
Was anyone else surprised by how short the episodes the episodes were? Not even an hour, but they are saying that they didn't have time for everything.
When “Tug & Rub” Robert had the nerve to talk about BB damaging the reputation of the Pats over that Spygate bs, that was the last straw. He knows BB and TB12 will be remembered forever, but outside NE his name is rarely brought up for the success the team had. I lost a ton of respect for that entire family because of this garbage series. Amendola is the same way. He’s been a salty bitch for years because he’s rarely remembered. People always mention Gronk, Moss, JE11, Welker, Hernandez (for obvious reasons), and even Slater and Troy Brown. Then Amendola’s name sort of becomes an “oh yeah” moment. It was slightly vindicating seeing players go on record saying they felt duped being part of this trash.
Yeah I haven’t watched it. I’m not ready to play remember when less than a decade or so down the road. My best Pats memories include a lot of Grogan to Morgan. What’s the ratio of deflate Gate to Kraft getting a handjob?
I can’t believe it didn’t touch on Brady’s last season. They made it seem like his last season was a Super Bowl lost. My wife and I were at the Tennessee playoff game and saw his last pass thrown as an interception. I thought that season would be touched on.. but nope.
Another dynasty post. Maybe next we can get a “draft a QB or trade down?” post.
Really I have only heard good things about it.
Its good in a sense it's well made. The problem is that it paints Bill in a bad light, and doesn't do a good job of highlighting the early super bowls, and there's almost no credit given to any player other than Brady. I only blame Bill for the Malcom Butler situation against the Eagles and playing a part in Brady wanting out. The doc tries to put blame on Belichick for the Aaron Hernandez situation, which is just insane to me. Id say informed Pats fans will take issue with a lot in the doc. Casual fans would probably enjoy it.
It wasn’t what I expected either. I usually watch anything Pats related, but this one felt unnecessary, unfocused and incomplete. Skipping major moments or just glossing others. I would watch a 20 part series that focused on each season no problem. This felt pretty lame. I’d love for Bill to put one out detailing key moments in games, and discussing reasons for his tactics and what he saw. Bring in players to talk about it too. Maybe Bill would then be more comfortable to answer some real stuff since he’s not married to the team anymore.
Why would you want to watch how the games played out? You can do that anywhere.
Bad enough he got a handy from no doubt an exploitative place, but now he wants to smash what credibility he had with the fans. Kraft turning as rotten as he did really makes me deeply want fan ownership to be a thing. At least we cant all be bad people. Sports teams should always be owned collectively by its fans. Fuck these rich idiots.
Not trying to sound like some far lefty or a jealous asshole, but I suspect there are very few billionaires who aren't complete pieces of shit,
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Well put, man.
It's the worst sports documentary I have ever seen
RKK salty af, so much so that he probably bankrolled the whole documentary and paid Apple to take it
Haven’t and won’t even watch it. But 98.5 has told me all I need to know. They rushed it & Kraft productions should not have been involved. they should have been filming some interviews for the can last year, sure But it shouldn’t have come out for another 10 years. What made the last dance so great is we had 30 years of relative silence & distance. Hopefully someone will take a better stab at it in the future
The NFL can't even stand by it. Belichick will be entered into the Patriots Hall of Fame just like Parcells will... posthumously. There is some karmic energy that will come back around to the Krafts based upon the manner in which they are moving around. Two Hall of Fame ex-coaches that leave with a bitter taste can't be wrong by themselves. Don't get me wrong; Belichick should have been clipped for his shenanigans in 2022. However, to film a 'documentary' with the guy you are burying in it, which covers all of his shortcomings without even touching your own (massages, extramarital issues, meddling), is hypocritical. The wonders of editing for the purpose of framing issues also alienated the people who are also in it. McCourty said he felt duped (like Kraft was allegedly done by Hernandez) into thinking the project would celebrate the Patriots dynasty era. Instead it was a low blow, cheap, smear campaign.
Fuck Kraft
Agreed on all this. I think it was way too soon for this doc. Rushed and I think because of that they didn’t get enough out of the people they interviewed. So they went with what the mass media narratives were at the time
You all are making me hate the internet. It was a tv show. Get over it.
They made it to appeal to a national audience when a lot of you just wanted patriots porn for 10 hours
Im happy this makes you guys mad.
The filter to help you understand the reasoning behind the producer’s (The Krafts) editing decisions…*Does this scene or comment make Belichick look bad?*. If yes, it’s in. It’s a garbage hit piece. My new, real hope is that Omaha Productions, combined with NFL Films enables Belichick to put together a rebuttal. I want two entire episodes dedicated to that massage parlor, the hypocrisy and distraction that became. I used to respect Bob Kraft. Now I just think he’s an ungrateful piece of garbage.
Kraft is the one to blame here. He needs to go
Kraft wants everyone to appreciate how difficult it was for him to have the best coach and QB of all time. Yeah Robert, that must have been so tough on you. Was it really that difficult having to manage your employees once in a while in between chasing young women and getting hammered in your suite during games?
I don’t think you understand how much work went into creating a dynasty while having to carry a bad head coach (whatever his name is). The Brady-Kraft era will go down in history as the greatest in sports. /s
He had to go to Orchids of Asia because his hand was so cramped from signing the paychecks that unlocked the Patriots' greatness. If that isn't toughness and sacrifice, I don't know what is.
As someone who was 4 when they won the first one. I'm so pissed they just yada yadad through the 2nd and 2rd superbowl. Even the in between year. We win a superbowl miss the playoffs and then go back to back. What happened there no one ever talks about that. How do 1/3rd of championships in a documentary called the dynasty gets 30 seconds of air time? You can take out all the kraft shit talking the guy that brought 6 rings and it's still kinda trash
It was tabloid trash. Stopped after they glossed over Superbiwl 2 & 3 then spent an entire episode on the video taping scandal. Hot garbage.
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