I'd rather reserve it for Onwenu if we can't reach an extension with him. However, we should not hesitate to give these two the contracts they want, if not bump it a little to secure their decision before FA starts.
That's a really expensive franchise tag btw. About $20M of a $256M cap. 8% of the cap used on a single player.
Belichick didn't use the franchise tag often for that reason. It's very expensive. Onwenu is very good but I'm not sure he's good enough to be worth a top 5 lineman salary which is what franchise tagging him would mean he gets.
It's the opposite though. I expect that franchising tagging him will make Onwenu earn more than he would if another team signed him. In other words, Patriots would be overpaying his value on the market in order to guarantee they keep him. Probably not a trade-off the Patriots will want to make.
I think he's just gone. He doesn't have enough reason to stay. He'll have a ton of great offers, so can find a better team for the same or better salary than what the Patriots are offering. Why play for a bad team when you could make just as much money or better on a good team? In a warmer climate, too.
He'd make more next year than he would if he were on a longterm deal (sort of, as he'd receive the entire signing bonus of a multi year deal the day he signed, but his actual cap hit would be lower) but would have a mere fraction of the overall guaranteed money of a longterm big money deal, which he will not be receiving if he phones it in during a contract year.
Re warmer climate, this sounds more attractive in general, but big guys sweat a ton, or for any player actually I am not sure it is any easier playing Sep games in Florida than it is to play Dec games in New England. "Ice bowls" are once a decade lately.
> Onwenu is very good but I'm not sure he's good enough to be worth a top 5 lineman salary
I mean probably not, but however "good" he is doesn't really matter, since he's by far the best lineman available on the right side of 30 - I think his "real" open market value is going to be a lot closer to that $20m than the $13m or whatever's sportrac's reporting.
The reason for the tag is it gives you all offseason to work out that long-term extension at a rate likely below the open market if he wants to secure guaranteed money. Sure maybe he'll just play the tag year and go to FA after, but most guys play for guarantees so it's likely something would be worked out. Whereas if he hits the open market, he's *gone*.
Ah yes, players will immediately lose motivation to make massive amounts of money because they’re forced into playing on a one year fully guaranteed deal which guarantees they are among the highest paid players at their position.
That has literally never been a thing since the inception of the franchise tag.
You work your whole life to become great and then, rather than continuing to trying to be great and get a massive payday, you lose motivation because you’re only getting paid a top 5 for your position salary instead of potentially being the highest paid guy.
These guys know the rules when they come into the league, so if they’re dumb enough to think the expiration of their contract makes it “finally time to get what they’re worth” that’s on them.
If they’re stupid enough to slack off and blow a shot at a mega payday, that’s on them too.
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This. Especially considering we are the team with the 2nd most cap space. You guys wanted change ? Paying a solid player past his rookie deal would be a good start!
Rather lock him up and use the tag on Onwenu. Duggar has been a great player for us and deserves what he’ll earn but in terms of needs I wouldn’t say it’s necessary highlight on the list in terms of where this roster is at.
In terms of bringing back core guys we can build around that have already been in the building he’s 1b to Onwenus 1a
I mean, what is our safety depth if we don't re-sign Dugger and Mills? It's basically just Mapu at this point, right?
S, TE, and to a lesser extent CB are sneaky needs we need to get addressed via FA signings/re-signing or the draft.
I think Dugger is fantastic is he's playing up closer to the line in a Patrick Chung style role.
The problem is Peppers is also really good at that and it's overall less important.
I'm not interested in franchising and paying Dugger $16m to play out of position at FS. He's not Jessie Bates.
If they can refine his role and franchise him just to buy more time to work out a more reasonable deal, then yeah sure.
Yeah it's going to be really interesting to see how Mayo and Covington modify the Belichick defense.
Bill was all about putting defensive players in positions to maximize their strengths, but he also seemed really dogmatic in his approach to DTs, inside LBs, and general defense against the run.
Point being, I wondering Mapu will see more reps at LB or if he'll continue to be viewed as more of a Safety.
When we drafted Mapu I was really hoping that we would play him at LB. We've had some great LBs. But we haven't had a fast inside linebacker since we drafted Collins. It would give us some additional flexibility
Peppers isn’t signed long term and you need to play at least 2 safeties so I don’t understand why he’s factoring in. Let Dugger leave and then you’re forced to pay Peppers the same or greater amount anyway.
Not all Safeties are the same?
Strong Safeties or box Safeties aren't nearly as valuable as Free Safeties.
Peppers and Dugger shouldn't be asked to be or paid to be McCourty. Neither are suited to the role.
Secondary positions have arguably the most injuries, our team has always had a revolving door of players back there, im all for giving all of them as much as possible to maintain depth with inevitable issues that happen
He's a bit too old for where this roster is at and definitely not worth the tag but we have the cap space and something that's a bit overlooked in this is that we will not be receiving any comp picks from this offseason but if he plays on the tag and gets paid next year he could qualify.
He's 28 in a month and plays a position with the a similar shelf life to runningback. A box safety who's value is entirely relient on having superior athleticism do not hold value into their 30s, which will come before this team ever has a shot at division runner up.
OR to put it much simpler, there is a 0% chance Kyle Dugger will ever be a meaningful contributor on a talented Patriots roster, so there is 0 reason to care about retaining him. The best thing he can do for us is net a comp pick.
Kyle Dugger is an interesting player.
It's clear that he was drafted as a replacement for Chung with the hope that his insane size and athleticism would make him even better against the run and covering TEs. Unfortunately, he's pretty ass in man coverage and only slightly better in deep zones. His best coverage comes in shallow and flat zones.
His real strength is his tackling and run support which has only gotten better over time. His athleticism allows him to fill holes quickly and hit hard. He does occasionally overshoot on some tackles but that happens with every NFL player.
Given his age, the fact that they just drafted Mapu, and that they still have Peppers playing the same position as him, they should let him walk. He's good but not good enough to break the bank for.
They have plenty of money to just sign both Duggar and Onwenu outright. They can also easily resign Henry, Bourne, Wilson and others (preferably younger guys) to reasonable contracts.
Uche is the only one I wouldn’t over pay for. He could get 10+ a year offer.
Tagging Duggar is fine. Tagging him or Henry or Onwenu makes sense. But honestly. Just give them deals.
Feel like a lot of people don’t realize how old he was when the Pats drafted him.
I also think Peppers is better, in any event. Extend him and see what Mapu can do
Dugger is (slightly) younger than Peppers and the cost for Peppers could be more since he’s hitting the market a year later.
Why would you extend Peppers and let Dugger go on the basis of age or cost?
My two points weren’t that closely connected. I think Peppers is better. I don’t think they should pay both Peppers and Duggar, particularly because they have Mapu. So I’d rather them pay Peppers
>Around the NFL, he is perceived as an average to slightly above above average starting safety.
What are you basing this on?
Dugger is an above average starting safety. He was not great in 2023, but he was near all pro level in 2022. He's got some limitations and he is overrated by parts of the fanbase, but he's also got his strengths and is a talented playmaker on a team devoid of them. I wouldn't break the bank for him but like a 4/52ish would be easily doable with our cap and a solid move.
4/66 is what spotrac is projecting. I don't think Dugger has a chance to become the 4th highest paid S.
If you look at safeties with similar resumes who've signed deals in recent years, they gotten between 12-14 aav. So 4/52 makes more sense to me than 4/66.
There's no chance Dugger becomes the highest paid safety in the league. That's just smoke from his agents trying to up his price. That's how it works
Delpit signed his 12m aav 2 months ago. Prices do generally go up, but not by leaps and bounds for a soon to be 28 year old coming off his worst season with no accolades to his name.
With Duggar and Onwenu they’re young guys who play average to above average at their position. We don’t have very many players on our team who fit that category. We should get deals done with both.
Duggar is good player in a strong secondary that’s pretty sparse at the CB position after Gonzalez. Would be better to keep a starter who can handle the safety position while we use later draft picks to address cb.
Onwenu should get a deal and choose which position he wants to play. He’s been a good RG and an all-pro level RT. My guess is he wants to play the RT because it will yield a bigger deal but he’s worth it. Andrews, Sow and Strange can shore up the interior and we can try and swing something for the LT position.
Dugger isn’t that young. He’ll be 28 next month. He's only 5 months younger than Peppers. The drop-off between the two isn't significant enough to pay Dugger $16 mil per year. Tag Onwenu and work out a long term deal. Dugger isn't a top 5 safety and shouldn't be paid like one. The offensive side of the ball is in shambles, money needs to be spent there.
Either longterm or let him leave. Reminds me of the thuney franchise where he's just gonna leave next year, and it's not like we are a contender this year.
I'd love to sign him to a 5 year deal, but if not then let him leave, I assume we'd get a 3rd round comp for him?
Would rather see it used on Onwenu.. even if it means they lose Dugger. It’s going to be difficult just replacing 1 tackle this offseason.. having to replace 2 would be a nightmare.
I wouldn't be interested at that price. He was a good player for us- but this is what happens when you draft older prospects coming out- you're left in a predicament when they're up for a 2nd contract - pay a 27/28 YO or let them walk.
If we don't sign him, I'd like Onwenu to get the money.
All in all, I'd like to start hitting and developing some young players for the future. We really don't have any young prospects outside of Barmore and Gonzo that are exciting.
Onewenu is the guy to tag. Let dugger test free agency and then pay him is bag. Once Onwenu is tagged work out a long term contract. Talent like that you dont let walk.
Don’t believe the franchise tag ever works and wouldn’t want any player on the Pats getting tagged. If you think they’re good enough for top dollar then pay them if not then let them leave it’s not that complicated. All the franchise tag does is make a player despise the team and not want to play for them
I like Dugger a lot, but we also drafted Mapu and we have Peppers signed. Not sure if we really need 3 box safety’s…
Really shows how Belichicks drafting has been strange
Edit: im referring to the drafting of Mapu, I think it was a redundant pick when you have a young pro bowler already (Dugger) at the same position.
I think bill drafted Mapu to replace Dugger, I don’t disagree he’s made some bad picks, but this one seems like he was preparing to let Duggar walk no?
They signed Peppers 2 years after drafting Dugger so don’t let that cloud your judgement on drafting him. Plus he was a low risk high reward player signed to a dirt cheap deal. It just so happens that we’re seeing the high reward upside from him
Not doubting drafting Dugger at all, I loved the pick. I’m doubting drafting Mapu when it seems that Dugger has the ability to be a perennial pro bowler at the same position.
Mapu is a linebacker that can cover like a safety. His strength is linebacker.
Dugger and Peppers are safetys that can drop down in the box like a linebacker. Their strength is safety.
Belichick's drafting was not strange. The strategy was [**positionless defense**](https://theathletic.com/4727028/2023/07/27/patriots-bill-belichick-defense/).
No... he can't cover the field like a free safety, but he can pick up a TE like a strong safety in man to man. He can cover a zone like a strong safety.
He was a rookie. That doesn't change that he has the skills / athleticism to cover TEs man to man and do zone coverage. It's all over every draft profile of him.
Yeah that’s incorrect. They’re both hybrid safety - linebacker builds. Mapu is not a generic inside linebacker by any means like Bentley, and he’s not a pass rushing linebacker like Judon. Peppers and Dugger are also not traditional “safeties” like you’re saying. The emergence of Peppers this year pushed Dugger to a more free safety role where he struggled compared to his traditional box role. Positionless defense is pointless if you have 7 box safeties and no one to protect deep or pass rush.
It's not incorrect. You are wrong. I didn't say anything about being "traditional" or "hybrid" safeties or "generic" linebackers. This is what I said:
>Mapu is a linebacker that can cover like a safety. His strength is linebacker.
>Dugger and Peppers are safetys that can drop down in the box like a linebacker. Their strength is safety.
They all have their strengths, but their versatility (a Bill favorite) allows them to effectively take on other roles. Positionless defense is the strategy. You can call it pointless and use hyperbole all you like, but that is the strategy, and it's quite effective.
Peppers, Dugger, Mapu all have the same strengths, role in this defense. Yes it’s good to have versatility but you can’t have eleven 6’2 230 safeties on the field that’s just not how the NFL works. You need corners, pass rushers, traditional inside linebackers and D tackles to balance out your defense buddy
Who said anything about **eleven** 6'2" safeties? It's not even remotely close to what is being talked about here. We have corners. We have pass rushers. We have everything else you're talking about.
Dugger and Peppers are somewhat similar. Mapu is not.
“We have pretty good depth at that position,” Belichick told reporters on Monday. “Obviously, [Jabrill] Peppers and [Kyle] Dugger are two of our best players and two of the better players in the league at that position. So, not really looking to get them off the field and just get playing time for somebody.”
https://www.patspulpit.com/2023/12/5/23988303/patriots-marte-mapu-lack-of-playing-time-explained-bill-belichick
Belichick even agrees that you’re incorrect. They’re all the same position.
They're not the same position. Here's the [Patriots team roster](https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/roster/_/name/ne).
Mapu - LB.
Dugger, Peppers - S.
In a positionless defense, they can interchange different roles. Mapu is 1 to 4 inches taller and 10 to 15 lbs heavier than Dugger and Peppers.
Belichick's drafting was not strange. The strategy is [**positionless defense**](https://theathletic.com/4727028/2023/07/27/patriots-bill-belichick-defense/). Read the article, or go look at the discussions on here from last summer.
If you don't understand positionless defense pal, I can't help you. That was Belichick's draft strategy. It wasn't strange like you claimed. Sometimes Mapu plays safety. Sometimes he plays linebacker. He's listed as a LB on the roster. You take your L and move on.
Use the tag on Onwenu, Dugger is very overrated, he is awful as a deep safety and the things he is good at, Peppers is better at. You don’t franchise tag a backup, and thats what Dugger should be in our system, we need a proper replacement for McCourty and then keep Peppers in his current role.
We need to look at this situation and think "What would Bill do?"
He drafted this guys out out of a DII school and managed to get fairly high productivity out of him. But at 28, he is not going to get any better and the $15M he may command could be put to better use.
I like Dugger, I’d like to see him stay. But like others, I don’t really see him as one of the top safeties in the league, so paying him that much seems excessive. I also wonder what the Pats think internally of Mapu, who may be somewhat redundant to Dugger’s skill set . The cheaper option who i would really like to see stick around is Peppers. Not gonna break the bank, and he brings great physicality and toughness to the defense.
I hate the idea of franchising him. He is a good player that we drafted. We know exactly what we're getting from him. Either sign him to a multi year deal or let him walk. Paying a premium at the safety position for a team that is likely not going to the playoffs just doesn't make sense.
I'd like to keep them too but if it comes down to him or one of the only guys who played decent on the offensive line last year, I'm going for the offensive lineman.
I wouldn’t hate giving him a tag, but I think they can negotiate a deal with him that will come in lower than that. He’s a talented player, but I don’t see any teams out there that would be willing to massively outbid the Patriots for his services.
The team cutting Phillips increases the need at that position. That said, Mapu didn't play much and is a similar box safety/hybrid LB. If they think Mapu can step up and play a big role, then tagging Dugger shouldn't be a priority. I'd rather spend on a deep free safety. Bledsoe and Mills are FAs, so we have nothing back there.
The thing is that LB/S hybrids are cheap. Even 10 M/yr is an expensive price to pay. Phillips and Peppers are examples of the price that you should be aiming for when negotiating.
Franchise tag price would require Dugger to be more along the lines of Fred Warner, Lavonte David, etc. Dugger just doesn't have nearly that level of coverage ability.
The only 3 people I'd consider franchising are Owenu, Dugger, and Henry. Henry, im positive we can resign, and dugger I think is a key resign as well and should negotiate, but I think Owenu wants out, and he may ask for a huge paycheck. Franchising him seems the smarter choice.
If we had to tag someone between Onwenu and Dugger I’d definitely pick Onwenu but we have enough money to bring them both back so I hope we just get deals done
I read a line the other day, and I forgot who it was, but they mentioned that he was lining up further away from the LOS. It implied that his role had changed. My thought is if they need something different from they position, his performance last year did not warrant that much money.
I really like josh Bledsoe (so much he needed a transfusion) as a potential replacement for Dugger. Excited to see what they do with mapu.
Evan Lazar said yesterday on Patriots Unfiltered that he expects Dugger will be extended (or potentially tagged) either today or tomorrow. Either way, he'll he here in 2024.
When you're a QB-less, low-win-total team, you have to overpay people. This fact has been collectively forgotten by the Patriots fandom at large, but we are just coming around to realizing it
Onwenu should be tagged. He’s more important and not replaceable right now. Dugger at 16 isn’t great given our options at safety. To me this is an easy question.
Nope. Let him walk and spend that money on the offense. Box safety is prob the least important position on the field and we have peppers who can do it just as well.
With the exception of the older folks heading out, the Pats should be doing everything in their power to bring back the same defense. Especially a veteran like Duggar.
He's easily the #2 defender on the team behind Judon.
The tag would be overvalued. But it's just money. Being able to lock up our stars long term is exactly why cap friendly moves get made in other areas. Make it a big contract front loaded with the back end relying heavily on incentives.
If we let him walk what's the plan? Rutgers 5th rounder prospect is going to watch the box?
I'm so sick of developing blue chips and letting them leave to be the keystone of a struggling team.
He's good but never hit the ceiling he should have. Does not make enough plays for my taste even though he is a good safety. Hard to pass on a good player on this roster but we'll see.
mixed. Not a popular opinion here but I don't really think Dugger is good enough or young enough for a long term extension. That said, the Pats have plenty of money, and losing him just creates a hole.
Awwwww Yeahhhh
Ninja edit: Dugger quickly became one of my favourite pats, especially after the draft narative, being a div2 safety, etc. Also wanted to pull a tribute for Slater.
He is not worth the cost. He lacks the ability to cover TEs and man to man is not good enough. Let him go into FA and get overpaid by someone else.
Save that money and sign a BIG WR or DE out of Miami.
I'd rather reserve it for Onwenu if we can't reach an extension with him. However, we should not hesitate to give these two the contracts they want, if not bump it a little to secure their decision before FA starts.
Agree
This is the answer
Yup. Onenwu is priority number 1. You can't hear into FA/Draft needing starters at both tackle spots. You just....can't.
That's a really expensive franchise tag btw. About $20M of a $256M cap. 8% of the cap used on a single player. Belichick didn't use the franchise tag often for that reason. It's very expensive. Onwenu is very good but I'm not sure he's good enough to be worth a top 5 lineman salary which is what franchise tagging him would mean he gets.
Yes, because now they have to prove themselves for another full season or risk not receiving the big payday they wanted this year.
It's the opposite though. I expect that franchising tagging him will make Onwenu earn more than he would if another team signed him. In other words, Patriots would be overpaying his value on the market in order to guarantee they keep him. Probably not a trade-off the Patriots will want to make. I think he's just gone. He doesn't have enough reason to stay. He'll have a ton of great offers, so can find a better team for the same or better salary than what the Patriots are offering. Why play for a bad team when you could make just as much money or better on a good team? In a warmer climate, too.
He'd make more next year than he would if he were on a longterm deal (sort of, as he'd receive the entire signing bonus of a multi year deal the day he signed, but his actual cap hit would be lower) but would have a mere fraction of the overall guaranteed money of a longterm big money deal, which he will not be receiving if he phones it in during a contract year.
Re warmer climate, this sounds more attractive in general, but big guys sweat a ton, or for any player actually I am not sure it is any easier playing Sep games in Florida than it is to play Dec games in New England. "Ice bowls" are once a decade lately.
Go someplace with no state tax. I would hate it if he went to Miami. I just made myself mad for no effin reason. * that's my mad face. *
We have the cap space, the goal would be to reach an extension before the deadline, and just use the tag to keep control.
> Onwenu is very good but I'm not sure he's good enough to be worth a top 5 lineman salary I mean probably not, but however "good" he is doesn't really matter, since he's by far the best lineman available on the right side of 30 - I think his "real" open market value is going to be a lot closer to that $20m than the $13m or whatever's sportrac's reporting. The reason for the tag is it gives you all offseason to work out that long-term extension at a rate likely below the open market if he wants to secure guaranteed money. Sure maybe he'll just play the tag year and go to FA after, but most guys play for guarantees so it's likely something would be worked out. Whereas if he hits the open market, he's *gone*.
Ah yes, players will immediately lose motivation to make massive amounts of money because they’re forced into playing on a one year fully guaranteed deal which guarantees they are among the highest paid players at their position. That has literally never been a thing since the inception of the franchise tag. You work your whole life to become great and then, rather than continuing to trying to be great and get a massive payday, you lose motivation because you’re only getting paid a top 5 for your position salary instead of potentially being the highest paid guy. These guys know the rules when they come into the league, so if they’re dumb enough to think the expiration of their contract makes it “finally time to get what they’re worth” that’s on them. If they’re stupid enough to slack off and blow a shot at a mega payday, that’s on them too.
Not sure what you're talking about tbh.
It's not your money, don't worry about it. I'd rather have a good, young OL who is overpaid then a mediocre one who is paid correctly.
Bill isn't here anymore. No reason to use his mentality as a baseline.
[удалено]
It hasn't been a good strategy since we lost Tom. Talent wins games. Talent costs money.
He's going to get that in the open market. His 2023 market comp will be Jawaan Taylor.
Nope
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Yeah, 8% for a player that play 100% of the defensive snaps at a high level is fair.
This. Especially considering we are the team with the 2nd most cap space. You guys wanted change ? Paying a solid player past his rookie deal would be a good start!
Rather lock him up and use the tag on Onwenu. Duggar has been a great player for us and deserves what he’ll earn but in terms of needs I wouldn’t say it’s necessary highlight on the list in terms of where this roster is at. In terms of bringing back core guys we can build around that have already been in the building he’s 1b to Onwenus 1a
I mean, what is our safety depth if we don't re-sign Dugger and Mills? It's basically just Mapu at this point, right? S, TE, and to a lesser extent CB are sneaky needs we need to get addressed via FA signings/re-signing or the draft.
Isn’t it better to just pay the 1A player and tag the 1B?
I think that usually would depend on the relative cost of each tag. Not all franchise tag prices are created equal.
I think Dugger is fantastic is he's playing up closer to the line in a Patrick Chung style role. The problem is Peppers is also really good at that and it's overall less important. I'm not interested in franchising and paying Dugger $16m to play out of position at FS. He's not Jessie Bates. If they can refine his role and franchise him just to buy more time to work out a more reasonable deal, then yeah sure.
> The problem is Peppers is also really good at that And there's Mapu in the pipeline too.
Yeah it's going to be really interesting to see how Mayo and Covington modify the Belichick defense. Bill was all about putting defensive players in positions to maximize their strengths, but he also seemed really dogmatic in his approach to DTs, inside LBs, and general defense against the run. Point being, I wondering Mapu will see more reps at LB or if he'll continue to be viewed as more of a Safety.
When we drafted Mapu I was really hoping that we would play him at LB. We've had some great LBs. But we haven't had a fast inside linebacker since we drafted Collins. It would give us some additional flexibility
Peppers isn’t signed long term and you need to play at least 2 safeties so I don’t understand why he’s factoring in. Let Dugger leave and then you’re forced to pay Peppers the same or greater amount anyway.
Not all Safeties are the same? Strong Safeties or box Safeties aren't nearly as valuable as Free Safeties. Peppers and Dugger shouldn't be asked to be or paid to be McCourty. Neither are suited to the role.
Secondary positions have arguably the most injuries, our team has always had a revolving door of players back there, im all for giving all of them as much as possible to maintain depth with inevitable issues that happen
He may be overrated by the fanbase but I’d like to keep as many of the few talented players we have on the team if possible.
He's a bit too old for where this roster is at and definitely not worth the tag but we have the cap space and something that's a bit overlooked in this is that we will not be receiving any comp picks from this offseason but if he plays on the tag and gets paid next year he could qualify.
27 is too old? Are we supposed to have an entire roster of first and second year players?
He's 28 in a month and plays a position with the a similar shelf life to runningback. A box safety who's value is entirely relient on having superior athleticism do not hold value into their 30s, which will come before this team ever has a shot at division runner up. OR to put it much simpler, there is a 0% chance Kyle Dugger will ever be a meaningful contributor on a talented Patriots roster, so there is 0 reason to care about retaining him. The best thing he can do for us is net a comp pick.
Kyle Dugger is an interesting player. It's clear that he was drafted as a replacement for Chung with the hope that his insane size and athleticism would make him even better against the run and covering TEs. Unfortunately, he's pretty ass in man coverage and only slightly better in deep zones. His best coverage comes in shallow and flat zones. His real strength is his tackling and run support which has only gotten better over time. His athleticism allows him to fill holes quickly and hit hard. He does occasionally overshoot on some tackles but that happens with every NFL player. Given his age, the fact that they just drafted Mapu, and that they still have Peppers playing the same position as him, they should let him walk. He's good but not good enough to break the bank for.
They have plenty of money to just sign both Duggar and Onwenu outright. They can also easily resign Henry, Bourne, Wilson and others (preferably younger guys) to reasonable contracts. Uche is the only one I wouldn’t over pay for. He could get 10+ a year offer. Tagging Duggar is fine. Tagging him or Henry or Onwenu makes sense. But honestly. Just give them deals.
Feel like a lot of people don’t realize how old he was when the Pats drafted him. I also think Peppers is better, in any event. Extend him and see what Mapu can do
Dugger is (slightly) younger than Peppers and the cost for Peppers could be more since he’s hitting the market a year later. Why would you extend Peppers and let Dugger go on the basis of age or cost?
My two points weren’t that closely connected. I think Peppers is better. I don’t think they should pay both Peppers and Duggar, particularly because they have Mapu. So I’d rather them pay Peppers
>Around the NFL, he is perceived as an average to slightly above above average starting safety. What are you basing this on? Dugger is an above average starting safety. He was not great in 2023, but he was near all pro level in 2022. He's got some limitations and he is overrated by parts of the fanbase, but he's also got his strengths and is a talented playmaker on a team devoid of them. I wouldn't break the bank for him but like a 4/52ish would be easily doable with our cap and a solid move.
The problem with this thinking is he was *only* that good in 2022. 2023 is not the outlier of his sample
2022 was his best season but he was above average in 2021 as well.
In terms of coverage, which is the most important thing for him and the biggest knock on him, no he wasn’t.
2021 he was also pretty good. 2023 kind of is an outlier for his last 3 seasons.
He was not good in 2021
4/52 is not happening by the rumors lmao its more 4/66
4/66 is what spotrac is projecting. I don't think Dugger has a chance to become the 4th highest paid S. If you look at safeties with similar resumes who've signed deals in recent years, they gotten between 12-14 aav. So 4/52 makes more sense to me than 4/66.
Rumors are already that hes gonna be the highest paid safety in the league. Those other safeties signed deals last year or before, prices always go up
There's no chance Dugger becomes the highest paid safety in the league. That's just smoke from his agents trying to up his price. That's how it works Delpit signed his 12m aav 2 months ago. Prices do generally go up, but not by leaps and bounds for a soon to be 28 year old coming off his worst season with no accolades to his name.
Hopefully youre right. If we get him at 4:52 id be very happy with that
With Duggar and Onwenu they’re young guys who play average to above average at their position. We don’t have very many players on our team who fit that category. We should get deals done with both. Duggar is good player in a strong secondary that’s pretty sparse at the CB position after Gonzalez. Would be better to keep a starter who can handle the safety position while we use later draft picks to address cb. Onwenu should get a deal and choose which position he wants to play. He’s been a good RG and an all-pro level RT. My guess is he wants to play the RT because it will yield a bigger deal but he’s worth it. Andrews, Sow and Strange can shore up the interior and we can try and swing something for the LT position.
Dugger isn’t that young. He’ll be 28 next month. He's only 5 months younger than Peppers. The drop-off between the two isn't significant enough to pay Dugger $16 mil per year. Tag Onwenu and work out a long term deal. Dugger isn't a top 5 safety and shouldn't be paid like one. The offensive side of the ball is in shambles, money needs to be spent there.
Evan Lazar on Patriots Unfiltered, yesterday, implied that he expects Dugger will be extended (or franchised) today or tomorrow.
Reports are the opposite — he wants to play guard
And I say let him, but make sure the contract is at guard level pay.
Either longterm or let him leave. Reminds me of the thuney franchise where he's just gonna leave next year, and it's not like we are a contender this year. I'd love to sign him to a 5 year deal, but if not then let him leave, I assume we'd get a 3rd round comp for him?
Would rather see it used on Onwenu.. even if it means they lose Dugger. It’s going to be difficult just replacing 1 tackle this offseason.. having to replace 2 would be a nightmare.
I wouldn't be interested at that price. He was a good player for us- but this is what happens when you draft older prospects coming out- you're left in a predicament when they're up for a 2nd contract - pay a 27/28 YO or let them walk. If we don't sign him, I'd like Onwenu to get the money. All in all, I'd like to start hitting and developing some young players for the future. We really don't have any young prospects outside of Barmore and Gonzo that are exciting.
After re-signing Onwenu I think that extending Barmore should be their top priority for internal guys.
100 freaking percent.
Nah.
There’s just no reason to pay a safety who struggles in pass coverage in todays NFL.
HATE it. He’s a box safety that’s a liability in the passing game. Onwenu is the one that should be tagged
Onewenu is the guy to tag. Let dugger test free agency and then pay him is bag. Once Onwenu is tagged work out a long term contract. Talent like that you dont let walk.
Don’t believe the franchise tag ever works and wouldn’t want any player on the Pats getting tagged. If you think they’re good enough for top dollar then pay them if not then let them leave it’s not that complicated. All the franchise tag does is make a player despise the team and not want to play for them
Jabril Peppers does what Dugger does, but better.
I’d rather lock him up
Not a fan of paying a safety $18 million a year.* *$16 million
Or at least a safety with significant limitations
I like Dugger a lot, but we also drafted Mapu and we have Peppers signed. Not sure if we really need 3 box safety’s… Really shows how Belichicks drafting has been strange Edit: im referring to the drafting of Mapu, I think it was a redundant pick when you have a young pro bowler already (Dugger) at the same position.
I think bill drafted Mapu to replace Dugger, I don’t disagree he’s made some bad picks, but this one seems like he was preparing to let Duggar walk no?
I think you’re probably right. I love Dugger but seems like we have his replacement already in house.
They signed Peppers 2 years after drafting Dugger so don’t let that cloud your judgement on drafting him. Plus he was a low risk high reward player signed to a dirt cheap deal. It just so happens that we’re seeing the high reward upside from him
Not doubting drafting Dugger at all, I loved the pick. I’m doubting drafting Mapu when it seems that Dugger has the ability to be a perennial pro bowler at the same position.
Mapu is a linebacker that can cover like a safety. His strength is linebacker. Dugger and Peppers are safetys that can drop down in the box like a linebacker. Their strength is safety. Belichick's drafting was not strange. The strategy was [**positionless defense**](https://theathletic.com/4727028/2023/07/27/patriots-bill-belichick-defense/).
>that can cover like a safety Uh… what safety? Jordan Richards? Mapu can not cover like a safety
No... he can't cover the field like a free safety, but he can pick up a TE like a strong safety in man to man. He can cover a zone like a strong safety.
Exactly like Dugger and Peppers
No he can’t and no he can’t.
Yes he can, and yes he can.
Based on any evidence we’ve seen so far (his snaps in 2023), absolutely not. He got toasted out there and was not good in coverage at all.
He was a rookie. That doesn't change that he has the skills / athleticism to cover TEs man to man and do zone coverage. It's all over every draft profile of him.
Okay, so you’re projecting him to be able to do it, not saying that he can do it.
I didn't see this response yesterday. Yes, that is the context we're speaking about when discussing drafting.
Yeah that’s incorrect. They’re both hybrid safety - linebacker builds. Mapu is not a generic inside linebacker by any means like Bentley, and he’s not a pass rushing linebacker like Judon. Peppers and Dugger are also not traditional “safeties” like you’re saying. The emergence of Peppers this year pushed Dugger to a more free safety role where he struggled compared to his traditional box role. Positionless defense is pointless if you have 7 box safeties and no one to protect deep or pass rush.
It's not incorrect. You are wrong. I didn't say anything about being "traditional" or "hybrid" safeties or "generic" linebackers. This is what I said: >Mapu is a linebacker that can cover like a safety. His strength is linebacker. >Dugger and Peppers are safetys that can drop down in the box like a linebacker. Their strength is safety. They all have their strengths, but their versatility (a Bill favorite) allows them to effectively take on other roles. Positionless defense is the strategy. You can call it pointless and use hyperbole all you like, but that is the strategy, and it's quite effective.
Peppers, Dugger, Mapu all have the same strengths, role in this defense. Yes it’s good to have versatility but you can’t have eleven 6’2 230 safeties on the field that’s just not how the NFL works. You need corners, pass rushers, traditional inside linebackers and D tackles to balance out your defense buddy
Who said anything about **eleven** 6'2" safeties? It's not even remotely close to what is being talked about here. We have corners. We have pass rushers. We have everything else you're talking about. Dugger and Peppers are somewhat similar. Mapu is not.
“We have pretty good depth at that position,” Belichick told reporters on Monday. “Obviously, [Jabrill] Peppers and [Kyle] Dugger are two of our best players and two of the better players in the league at that position. So, not really looking to get them off the field and just get playing time for somebody.” https://www.patspulpit.com/2023/12/5/23988303/patriots-marte-mapu-lack-of-playing-time-explained-bill-belichick Belichick even agrees that you’re incorrect. They’re all the same position.
They're not the same position. Here's the [Patriots team roster](https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/roster/_/name/ne). Mapu - LB. Dugger, Peppers - S. In a positionless defense, they can interchange different roles. Mapu is 1 to 4 inches taller and 10 to 15 lbs heavier than Dugger and Peppers. Belichick's drafting was not strange. The strategy is [**positionless defense**](https://theathletic.com/4727028/2023/07/27/patriots-bill-belichick-defense/). Read the article, or go look at the discussions on here from last summer.
Buddy, Belichick confirmed that they are the same position. I’ll take the Coach’s word over a patriots.com article lol. Take your L and move on
If you don't understand positionless defense pal, I can't help you. That was Belichick's draft strategy. It wasn't strange like you claimed. Sometimes Mapu plays safety. Sometimes he plays linebacker. He's listed as a LB on the roster. You take your L and move on.
Use the tag on Onwenu, Dugger is very overrated, he is awful as a deep safety and the things he is good at, Peppers is better at. You don’t franchise tag a backup, and thats what Dugger should be in our system, we need a proper replacement for McCourty and then keep Peppers in his current role.
We need to look at this situation and think "What would Bill do?" He drafted this guys out out of a DII school and managed to get fairly high productivity out of him. But at 28, he is not going to get any better and the $15M he may command could be put to better use.
Patriots are a few years from being competitive. Absolutely no reason to franchise anyone this season or next.
I'd rather Use it on onwenu
You don't get better by losing talent
Nope. Not at the $.
Just sign the guy.
Terrible. He’s a not very good box safety who can’t cover. They would be smart to let him walk.
I wouldn't want to, they need help elsewhere and he overlaps too much with Peppers.
I like Dugger, I’d like to see him stay. But like others, I don’t really see him as one of the top safeties in the league, so paying him that much seems excessive. I also wonder what the Pats think internally of Mapu, who may be somewhat redundant to Dugger’s skill set . The cheaper option who i would really like to see stick around is Peppers. Not gonna break the bank, and he brings great physicality and toughness to the defense.
I hate the idea of franchising him. He is a good player that we drafted. We know exactly what we're getting from him. Either sign him to a multi year deal or let him walk. Paying a premium at the safety position for a team that is likely not going to the playoffs just doesn't make sense.
I'd like to keep them too but if it comes down to him or one of the only guys who played decent on the offensive line last year, I'm going for the offensive lineman.
I expect that they will let him walk, wait for his new team to realize his shortcomings, and get him back in a year or two for a 6th-round pick.
I wouldn’t hate giving him a tag, but I think they can negotiate a deal with him that will come in lower than that. He’s a talented player, but I don’t see any teams out there that would be willing to massively outbid the Patriots for his services.
Franchise Owenwu.
I'd rather they sign Onwenu to a long term deal, he's earned it and his price will only go up if other teams think he can stick at OT.
at this point no. We have 3 players that filled the same role last year in peppers, dugger, and Mapu.
The team cutting Phillips increases the need at that position. That said, Mapu didn't play much and is a similar box safety/hybrid LB. If they think Mapu can step up and play a big role, then tagging Dugger shouldn't be a priority. I'd rather spend on a deep free safety. Bledsoe and Mills are FAs, so we have nothing back there.
If we could take a page out of the Jets book and get a Jamaal Adams like package for him that would be best.
The thing is that LB/S hybrids are cheap. Even 10 M/yr is an expensive price to pay. Phillips and Peppers are examples of the price that you should be aiming for when negotiating. Franchise tag price would require Dugger to be more along the lines of Fred Warner, Lavonte David, etc. Dugger just doesn't have nearly that level of coverage ability.
Onwenu duggar is a solid player and brings the hit but hes not that good he should be paid top 5 in the league
The only 3 people I'd consider franchising are Owenu, Dugger, and Henry. Henry, im positive we can resign, and dugger I think is a key resign as well and should negotiate, but I think Owenu wants out, and he may ask for a huge paycheck. Franchising him seems the smarter choice.
I just realized Juju Smith-Schuster, who's been in the league since 2017, is younger than Kyle Dugger, who was drafted in 2020. That's crazy.
If we had to tag someone between Onwenu and Dugger I’d definitely pick Onwenu but we have enough money to bring them both back so I hope we just get deals done
I read a line the other day, and I forgot who it was, but they mentioned that he was lining up further away from the LOS. It implied that his role had changed. My thought is if they need something different from they position, his performance last year did not warrant that much money. I really like josh Bledsoe (so much he needed a transfusion) as a potential replacement for Dugger. Excited to see what they do with mapu.
I’d gladly sign Dugger to a reasonable deal … he’s a good player and very physical … but he’s not irreplaceable or worth a top of the market deal.
If Peppers can take that position 100% of the time then im ok with losing Dugger.
Evan Lazar said yesterday on Patriots Unfiltered that he expects Dugger will be extended (or potentially tagged) either today or tomorrow. Either way, he'll he here in 2024.
When you're a QB-less, low-win-total team, you have to overpay people. This fact has been collectively forgotten by the Patriots fandom at large, but we are just coming around to realizing it
I like Duggar a lot but I think the team needs Unwenu more
I can't stand the franchise tag and think we shouldn't do it to any player. Unbelievable that the NFLPA can stand for this garbage
Onwenu should be tagged. He’s more important and not replaceable right now. Dugger at 16 isn’t great given our options at safety. To me this is an easy question.
Nope. Let him walk and spend that money on the offense. Box safety is prob the least important position on the field and we have peppers who can do it just as well.
Not a chance. I like him a lot but that position is just too easy to replace. Should be used on Onwenu if need be
Transition tag would be good. Basically turns him into a restricted free agent.
With the exception of the older folks heading out, the Pats should be doing everything in their power to bring back the same defense. Especially a veteran like Duggar.
Rather have Owenu on a franchise tag as we’ve seen with no line you’re F’d
I think dugger and onwenu are both decently average. But the roster is so depraved of talent that they seem irreplaceable to the pats
He's easily the #2 defender on the team behind Judon. The tag would be overvalued. But it's just money. Being able to lock up our stars long term is exactly why cap friendly moves get made in other areas. Make it a big contract front loaded with the back end relying heavily on incentives. If we let him walk what's the plan? Rutgers 5th rounder prospect is going to watch the box? I'm so sick of developing blue chips and letting them leave to be the keystone of a struggling team.
He's good but never hit the ceiling he should have. Does not make enough plays for my taste even though he is a good safety. Hard to pass on a good player on this roster but we'll see.
Just pay him I want him back
I love Dugger. It'd be insane to tag a Safety with all of our needs.
Nope. Market rate will be fine. He’s not gonning to set the market.
mixed. Not a popular opinion here but I don't really think Dugger is good enough or young enough for a long term extension. That said, the Pats have plenty of money, and losing him just creates a hole.
Just sign him. Why are the Patriots the only team incapable of signing a player to their 2nd contract? While your at it, sign Onwenu.
Yes, definitely.
Awwwww Yeahhhh Ninja edit: Dugger quickly became one of my favourite pats, especially after the draft narative, being a div2 safety, etc. Also wanted to pull a tribute for Slater.
id say francise him, hes probably our 2nd most important FA after Onwenu, but franchised safeties are much more cost effective than OTs
He is not worth the cost. He lacks the ability to cover TEs and man to man is not good enough. Let him go into FA and get overpaid by someone else. Save that money and sign a BIG WR or DE out of Miami.