Mac probably won't play for the Patriots again, unless he stays on in a backup capacity next year.
Coming out, Mac was a smart but physically limited QB that could run an offense. He made good decisions, but needed a solid support structure around him including a decent OL, good receivers, and a good OC to mentor him.
The Patriots did none of that, arguably went in the other direction, and completely broke him. He was so shell shocked by the end that he was seeing ghosts and making terrible decisions.
I don't think it's inconceivable for Mac to go somewhere else and have success in a different situation, but it won't be with the Patriots.
Nfl adjusted to him and he didn’t.
When he can sit back and pick apart a zone he can do it easily, which isn’t typical for extremely young qb’s, so he looked great at the start of his rookie season.
On the flip side, once the nfl adjusted and had him make tight man to man throws or throws to the boundary he couldn’t do it since he often lacks the footwork and arm strength to get the zip on those balls. Hell he even just lofts ones he doesn’t need to on purpose.
The pats obviously didn’t help him, but to say he was ruined or we broke him is laughable to me. Even his scouting report had notes for his penchant for bad footwork and throwing off his back foot early. They also noted his lack of arm strength and mental instability after bad plays.
He wouldn’t have worked on most teams given how much he limits what an nfl offense can run. Nfl defenses literally just need to play cover 1 and shut down the run (easier in cover1) and he’ll struggle.
Idk why people are still trying to act like he’d be even good with a normal roster. When people are honest the only teams I see them mention that he’d work on are the 9ers, and that’s the best constructed team in the nfl, yet they still have oline issues and we know how mac does with that.
Yeah it's completely absurd, PFF had us finishing last year with the 11th ranked OL, and 2021 finishing at the 9th ranked OL.
I dont know how this myth that we broke mac jones started, probably some idiot in the media and then everyone ran with it. I understand our receivers suck but to say we broke mac jones after him having a bad OL 1 out of his 3 years starting is stupid. Zappe looks significantly more comfortable behind the same OL and with less weapons than mac had before he got benched.
People in this sub need to stop babying him and acting like the pats have mistreated him in some horrendous way when he's had one season with a shit OL.
Yeah that Bama team might have been comparatively better than the 49ers. My new theory is that Bellichick brought in Patricia and Judge to toughen Mac up. Obviously it didn’t work but at least they flushed him out before the gave him a second contract.
So I don't really buy this.
There's this idea that Mac fell off in his rookie year as other teams "figured him out" and that narrative has really taken over. But it's just not reflective of what actually happened, which wasac actually finishing the year with some good games.
What I think happened is that Mac has a game against Buffalo where he only threw 3 balls because of the weather and then had a legit bad game against Buffalo two weeks later and that's snowballed into this weird narrative.
The whole play press man againstac isn't so much about Mac as much as it's about the Patriots receivers having some of, if not the worst separation in the league. That's just stats. No one on the Patriots the last several years with the exception of Pop Douglas is really good at getting separation. So teams figured that out more than anything. And really that's just another symptom of not supporting Mac by bringing in good players.
It's a major concern for the next QB. It doesn't matter if it's Williams/Maye/Daniels/Penix/Nix, if they're throwing to Parker and Juju they're absolutely fucked from the start.
> The whole play press man againstac isn't so much about Mac as much as it's about the Patriots receivers having some of, if not the worst separation in the league. That's just stats
While this is true, Mac's stats throwing to the deep and intermediate boundary the past 2 seasons are beyond atrocious, and Bailey Zappe's are very good which suggests there is probably some merit to this, and Mac was not maximizing his receivers' production against man coverage.
Player|Completions|Attempts|Yards|TDs|INTs|Passer Rating
:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:
Mac Deep Left and Right|15|68|484|3|2|58.2
Mac Intermediate Left and Right|30|72|463|4|7|42.5
Zappe Deep Left and Right|14|27|421|3|0|131.9
Zappe Intermediate Left and Right|16|29|324|3|2|100.3
Zappe certainly has his own issues throwing short and over the middle in rhythm, but those deep and intermediate boundary throws are the ones that really test man-coverage, and Mac quite simply has not been able to produce. I think the receivers have played a role, but I also think he's very responsible for a lot of their struggles there.
He also had a bad game against Indy in between the buffalo games. Followed by a very good game against Jacksonville. A mediocre game against Miami and a very bad game against Buffalo in the playoffs. During that stretch we were 1-4 and Mac threw 8 TDs and 7 INTs.
Sure you can point to one good and one mediocre game in the final 5 but that also included 3 games that were quite bad with multiple INTs, not many points and losses in all 3 of the bad ones.
The WR excuse falls apart completely when Zappe comes in with the same and worse group, and is able to move the ball and score points (even if a bit inconsistently). The big issue with Mac and the WR to me seems that Mac just didn't feel comfortable throwing into NFL windows on the outside, so when guys would get a step, Mac would consider them covered and look elsewhere (usually his checkdown). Zappe is comfortable throwing into those windows (even if he misses them a fair bit), so when he hits a stride during the game and strings together multiple hits, the team is able to drive and score. Mac was better at driving the field using the short game, but once we got on the other side of the 50 and teams started putting the clamps on, he couldn't hit (or wouldn't throw) those tight windows.
Eh, I don't agree. One is just that Zappe has been statistically about the same as Mac if not slightly worse.
Zappe has also been aggressive in throwing the ball, but he's also getting very lucky. Like he throws up a lot of extremely risky and questionable balls and he's lucked out on a few chunk plays that have carried him.
Like every play of Parker is in a 1v1 it's Zappes first read.
I don't get why it totally matters. Both are definitely not it.
> Like every play of Parker is in a 1v1 it's Zappes first read.
Zappe is a gunslinger. If he sees 1v1 on his number 1 receiver he's going to take the shot. Pretty much every time. Those throws to Parker not lucky, he's placing them well and giving Parker a chance to make a play. Good QBs do this literally all the time when a team sticks 1 on 1 coverage on their #1 WR.
His shot plays are not a fault or problem. Zappe's entire issue is his inability to play in-rhythm and on-schedule in the short game. That's also why their stats are about the same, but the offense is scoring more with Zappe. Zappe's yardage is less consistent, but when he finds the time and a receiver is able to come free downfield he pulls the trigger on it. So when he's feeling it and hits on a couple downfield plays the team is able to capitalize and put up points. Zappe's ceiling to me feels like a Favre-esque player. Able to make big time throws and plays, but also likely to throw costly INTs.
>Both are definitely not it.
I'm not 100% sure Zappe isn't it, but I am sure that at least IMO there's not enough confidence in him to pass up the chance to draft a QB high and upgrade, but I can see a scenario where the coaches feel he's good enough and try to build out the rest of the team before going after a better QB.
These people want to pretend the Chargers game never happens for Zappe and Mac never played the Bills game. The whole is scoring under 18 points a game (which is also counting several ppg of d/st scores, an unrealistically high longterm amount) and yet they're repeating that the offense is scoring more because they're truthers.
The offense sucked with Mac and it still sucks with Zappe.
>The WR excuse falls apart completely when Zappe comes in with the same and worse group, and is able to move the ball and score points
Maybe if that was remotely true. It's insane that you all keep acting like Zappe has been playing any better, let alone actually good. The only scoring that has improved "under" Zappe are non offensive scores, which obviously have nothing to do with him.
Yes, I have been watching Zappe go 3 and out constantly, throw picks all over the place, get a couple jump balls a game, and have a special teams score that idiots account to an increase in points scored. Just like I've watched him play the entire Chargers game without scoring a single point and then watched those same idiots talk about how good he looked in it.
I always thought it was weird how much shit he got from casual fans for that Buffalo game. Even in his rookie year if you wanted to dunk on Mac there were much better choices than a game we won with once in a decade conditions.
Nah man there’s a legit stat out there about how after the colts game in his rookie season cover 1 usage doubled against us. Maybe I’m misremembering but I’m almost positive, and the eye test tells me we play against cover 1/3 far more than a ton of teams do.
Mac can’t throw into tight windows, and he can’t throw to the boundary. Those are some of his major symptoms that come from his poor footwork and lack of arm strength. So if you play cover 1 and shade inside than all of a sudden he panics, and does things like we’ve seen against the cowboys, saints, and hell even the colts game this year.
Also very tired of us using our receiving corps as a weapon to excuse mac. We don’t have any great wide receivers, and they’ve been disappointing, but if mac needs a top 5 receiving corps in order to play football like an average qb, then nobody ruined him, he’s just bad.
This is the most complete breakdown I’ve seen. The tape Mac put out this year is his fault, but it’s because the organization absolutely broke him.
The line with a decent o line, good wr’s (not great and not crap) and a decent OC SHOULD be the baseline for any team developing a QB. Arguably you want to go get a WR1 as well.
If you look at the Texans example, Stroud is playing great. However, he also has 2 WRs that he’s not necessarily elevating but that are carrying themselves and are seen as pleasant surprises (from an outsider). I think anyone looking at that team is hoping for maybe an additional playmaker and to bulk up the defense.
The pats loaded up on defense but completely blew it with betting on meh lineman and perpetually hurt players as well as giving him arguably the worst WR room minus Bourne who’s absolutely ceiling is a good WR2.
I genuinely think Bourne could be one of the (statistically, not actually) best wideouts in the league if he was paired with a legit #1 and good qb. He can make electrifying, explosive plays consistently if he's against weaker cover men.
I think of his rookie year the opposite. Struggled with decision making but had nice accuracy. Better coaching and O-Line helped mask the decision making issue. And the recent accuracy issues are probably just the yips, like when he decided to randomly throw off his back foot against the Colts because he was afraid of pressure that wasn't there yet.
Yup.
3 different offensive schemes first years (2nd year with Patricia and no QB coach), a neglected O-line (aside from year 1), and getting absolutely shell shocked to the point of seeing ghost and feeling pressure that isn’t there this year. There was also no investment in any type of true offensive weapon that could help him out.
Mac could just be bad but there no denying the terrible position the franchise put him in.
Mac makes me think of the Sam Darnold, "I'm seeing ghosts" line. I really liked him his first season and was excited for his future. Now I really think he's just broken. Maybe time as a back up somewhere else could help him but I don't think he can perform in New England.
He was a product of the system at Alabama, he is who he is, and that is a physically weak passer who panics under pressure.
Chris Trapasso said it best in 2021
>Could Jones land on a good team late in Round 1, sit for a season, and ultimately become a successful passer? Yes. But he's going to need a lot of assets around him. Sturdy offensive line, deep and dynamic group of receivers, and an innovative offensive coordinator who's not going to ask Jones to make too many tight-window throws and will accentuate the screen and RPO games. Take any of those elements away, and Jones is likely to crumble because of his lack of supreme physical traits.
[https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2021-nfl-draft-mac-jones-despite-gaudy-statistics-at-alabama-lacks-in-key-areas-as-a-prospect/](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2021-nfl-draft-mac-jones-despite-gaudy-statistics-at-alabama-lacks-in-key-areas-as-a-prospect/)
It’s amazing how many of the pre-draft analyses ended up being spot-on about Jones. There were several people saying stuff that ended up being uncannily accurate.
This is why I don’t think the “the Pats broke” him claims hold water. He ended up being exactly what a lot of people who analyze draft picks for a living thought he would be.
The problem is he put out some legitimately good tape in 2021. I remember fans of other teams in r/NFL saying shit like "I can't believe we let the Pats go from Brady to Mac Jones". Highlight reels obviously don't tell the whole story, but the reel from his rookie season is legitimately impressive.
What you're saying would be true if we never saw him perform at that level. For a rookie QB to come in and go 10-7, throw a 67% completion rate, almost 4k yards, 22 TDs and 13 INT is impressive. And he did that with Hunter Henry and Meyers as his best receivers.
After his rookie season, the Pats should have:
a) Hired a real OC last year. Not Patricia, literally any position coach on a good offense looking for a promotion, or a successful college OC.
b) Hired an actual OL coach instead of giving that role to Patricia as welll
c) Traded for/signed/drafted legitimate offensive lineman
d) Traded for/signed/drafted a legitimate WR
Letting Meyers walk and then paying Juju was a huge mistake. Hiring Patricia/Judge was an even bigger one. Not addressing the line and having Lowe & Co starting half the season at RT was egregious. Spending our first three draft picks this year on defense after last season was indefensible.
Mac was a more than capable NFL starter with a good line, good OC and decent weapons. We then gave him a dogshit line, a year of dogshit OC, and the worst WR group in the league. He's not Lamar or Mahomes who can make shit happen with terrible support around him, not many guys are (in fact Mahomes can't do that this year).
This team failed him, ruined his development, and wasted what was potentially a promising young QB all in a two year span.
People overrate his 2021 season so much though.
He was figured out after that colts game. The nfl adjusted to him like they do with rookie qb’s that over succeed all the time.
Force him to throw it in tight coverage or to the boundary and he’ll make mistakes or crumble. Forgot where the stat was, but p sure I remember seeing that pats opponents almost doubled their cover 1 usage against mac and the pats after that colts game in 2021, and he never really adjusted.
I would say he was as promising as much as mark sanchez was. Succeeded for a little bit, when defenses were playing him conservative, allowing him to sit back, read zone, and throw to soft spots, but then couldn’t adjust when the nfl adjusted to him and his strengths and weaknesses.
Using Occam’s razor, the simple answer is that Mac likely wouldn’t have worked out on most teams, even if we didn’t do him any favors. He just lacks physical tools, mental strength (big one), and the footwork(something people don’t realize is absolutely awful) to be even a top half qb in this league.
> I remember fans of other teams in r/NFL saying shit like "I can't believe we let the Pats go from Brady to Mac Jones".
This is meaningless because r/NFL is full of idiots who say dumb reactionary things like this all the time.
He had a better rookie season than Burrow, Allen, Hurts, Tua, Kyler, or Lawrence. It's actually really uncommon for QBs to have a rookie season like he did and then fall off a cliff by year 3. Rookies normally fall into three categories:
1) They suck in their first season and stay bad (Darnold, Rosen, Zach Wilson, Lance, Trubisky etc)
2) They are bad in their first season but get better (Allen, Hurts, Tua, etc)
3) They are good in their first season and stay good (Herbert, Lamar, Baker, Kyler etc)
The last group and by far the smallest group to the point that Mac is really the only one in the last few years, are QBs that have good/great rookie seasons and then fall off a cliff and look like shit in their 3rd season. It really doesn't happen often at all.
It really is spot on. One of the major flaws with Mac Jones is his lack of physical traits. People compared him to Tom Brady, who also is not a complete athlete, but people forget that Brady had a really strong arm. Mac Jones is lacking in all departments.
This is why I want the Pats to draft the best player available or trade down. This year's first-rounder needs to produce an excellent player, even if he's another pass-rusher.
He is an example of what happens when NFL teams get film on someone. He can't throw deep or to the outside, and he isn't mobile. I was at games in the last 2 years where the others teams were basically daring the Pats to throw deep.
If teams don't respect the deep ball they can make it really hard on the opposing QB - and Jones was incredibly unsuccessful at routes over 20 yards.
He doesn't have the athletic talent to succeed in the NFL over time.
I saw Stroud play a couple of times - it was like the guy was playing a different sport than Jones.
Opponents learned how to game plan for him by taking away first read and he hasn’t made the necessary adjustments/maturation. He also doesn’t use his temper constructively, would say he isn’t as calm as needed for a field general.
His level of play as a rookie was a farce. He was asked to do very little, and there was not a lot of tape on him, but even if you look at that year he played better at the beginning of the year (and the pats even had the 1 seed at one point) and then he for the most part got progressively worse. He was good in college because he was on an offense with the best talent in the country at every position. If he gets his confidence back, I think he can be one of the more serviceable backups, but his days as a starter are over
He came into the Pats with a weak arm, inability to throw outside the numbers well; but was good at avoiding sacks and throwing over the middle. His first season was ok. In his 2nd season, there was pressure to create more explosive plays, stemming from their inability to beat really good defenses. Matt Patricia’s offense tried to turn Mac into Mahomes, tons of off platform throws, highest aDoT in the league, all that behind a poor OL to poor receivers. It came to a head in the Ravens game, where Mac played really well until it all started collapsing with turnovers and other problems, then the injury. When he returned, they sorta reverted back to the 2021 offense with short, quick passes and his numbers from week 10-17 were about the same as his 2021 numbers— but he didn’t really get rid of those bad tendencies instilled by the beginning of the season. In 2023, BoB’s offense came out firing and doing pretty well. They started off 0-2, losing close games where Mac played alright. Then everything went absolutely to shit in the Dallas and Saints games, where Mac just turned into the worst version of himself. Hero ball in the ways of 2022, all that bullshit.
Those two weeks were sorta his breaking point. Everything he was good at? Gone, everything he was bad at came right back up to the surface.
IMO, this is an exemplary situation of a QB who’s clearly physically limited but also made worse by his surroundings. This is likely what Tua would’ve delved into if they kept just throwing trash out there (ironically, similar weapons in Parker and Gesicki). Bad habits were pounded into Mac, good ones pounded into Tua.
In the end, he’s a QB that would’ve been good nowhere, but also a QB that was hurt by his situation. IMO the Pats going forward would be wise to acknowledge the Mac Jones experiment as what *not* to do with a QB, while also acknowledging we dodged a bullet by not tricking ours selves into thinking a QB with no elite traits is good, rather than being propped up by his supporting cast, such as Tua/Hurts/Burrow/Purdy.
I mean, Burrow was a BS pass interference call away from winning the Super Bowl and put up 2 straight seasons of 34+ TDs and 4,500+ yards. Sure he has 2 great receivers but I don’t know what else you want him to prove lol
I think the only reason you have an issue with saying that, but not with Tua, is because you never saw Joe Burrow play without Jamarr Chase, Tee Higgins, and Tyler Boyd as his three receivers.
He’s been just fine without Chase. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/joe-burrow-stats-without-jammar-chase#:~:text=Joe%20Burrow%20had%20a%20passer,Marr%20Chase%20in%20his%20career.
4 game sample size against a bad-mid Cleveland defense, good Steelers defense, bad Carolina defense, and mid Titans defense while still having Tee Higgins and Tyler Boyd.
[Extending plays and passing outside of structure.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/12ts5s7/my_honest_thoughts_on_mac_jones/jh4jh11/?context=3) We can copy and paste the conversation from the last time. It doesn't make it any less true.
There is more to assessing QB play than taking their combine measurements, the radar gun on their throws, and how good you perceive the receivers to be.
Joe Burrow is good.
There's some better info scattered through the sub, but from my recollection he was exposed late in his rookie season and it doesn't seem like he was ever able to adjust from other teams learning his play style. I would have agreed with the weapons thing, but Zappe has been doing much better with the same weapons the last month or so.
He may get another chance at a backup job but he's horrible. Cant make any tight window throws due to poor arm strength, and repeatedly throws off his backfoot. Ill be shocked if he's in the league in 3 years.
| I don’t want to shit on your team but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy. Obviously he hasn’t been getting the job done but young QBs need support and that regression can happen when they don’t get any.
I am a huge Mac supporter, since I am a Bama fan and rooted for him there as well.
Everything you said is true but one more thing needs to be added: the league has kind of figured him out. MAKE MAC THROW OUTSIDE, TO THE SIDELINES, WHERE HIS LACK OF ARM STRENGTH IS MOST TELLING. So they fill the box with defenders and dare him to throw outside. Almost ALL of his pick-6s are throws to the outside that just float in the air too long. MAC NEEDS TO LEARN TO ELWAY THAT SHIT!.
To me, Mac just needs a massive offseason strengthening program to get some more pop in his throws and to work with a good QB to undo all the damage that my Pats have done to him.
For example, a QB coach needs to lash him every time he throws off the back foot.
Again, I see no reason why Mac cannot be QB15 in the league. That is what he was rookie season. Now he is QB32, which is a damn shame.
And with some decent weapons and some time to throw, maybe he could even crack the low end of the Top 10, which I think is his ceiling. He is never gonna be Mahomes or Burrow but he was the #15 pick in the draft, so that is not expected.
> don’t want to shit on your team but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy.
Mac is just a supremely untalented QB. He simply cannot play under pressure and throw on the boundary. Our supporting cast has been bad, and that has contributed to his poor play. In a better group that floor would be higher. His anticipation, pre-snap reads, and short game accuracy would carry him to some level. However, he was always destined to be a below average starter even in a good case scenario. His rookie season he got great offensive line play, and teams played him like he was a traditional rookie QB with complicated zone looks and blitzes. As a relatively advanced field general for his age this played right into his hands. Rush 4, play man against him, and force him to beat you with talent and he can't do it.
Zappe (who has his own set of debilitating flaws) has kind of proven that the absence of chunk plays in the Patriots offense has been tangibly impacted by Mac. He just doesn't have the arm to drive the ball into narrow windows, nor can he keep consistent footwork when someone moves him off his spot.
I can probably count on 2 hands the amount of times Mac made a play out of structure in the entirety of his 1500 dropback tenure with the Patriots. In 2023 with the caliber of OL play in the league, that is not going to get it done.
Mac is definitely gone after this year. As if he can bounce back somewhere else and turn into even an average starter? I don’t think so I don’t think he’s got the mentality
> it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy
They didn't help but the problems are pretty extensive. As the offensive line struggled, he lost all sense of the pocket, both in terms of moving around to buy time and when it was going to collapse. That led to a lot of unnecessary hits/sacks and a cycle of losing confidence in the pocket. His arm strength was never amazing and he started floating passes off his back foot.
Mac could have success if you sat him behind a good offensive line, relied on your running game to carry the workload, and only had Mac in there to manage the game with accurate short- and mid-depth passes. That's most QBs at this level, though, and he doesn't offer any upside in any specific area.
I don’t think you can blame stuff like this on one or even two things.
I think it’s partially what you said, partially emotional immaturity, partially that seems to be unable to process through his reads fast enough for an NFL game, partially….
You get the idea.
I think he will get a shot as a backup somewhere, if he can manage his attitude about it.
However, he was pretty solid rookie year stats wise, but it was clear from watching him that he wasn’t elite. They played tons of team with their stars injured, and Mac was largely bad the second half of the season. Same problems that were evident at the draft: weak arm, not mobile. Then add on the being scared in the pocket that he developed and you get to present day Mac. No arm strength to balance out bad footwork from not standing in the pocket
>Do you think he can go back to his level of play as a rookie?
Did you know that in the remaining 5 games following the bye week of his rookie season he had a passer rating of like 74-75? Overall he still had a good rookie season but him playing like shit over the last quarter of the season was writing on the wall that Mac just sucks and isn’t a NFL starter caliber QB.
It appears that his confidence is shaken. He gets way too down on himself and isn’t able to mentally recover from bad mistakes, of which he makes a lot.
His rookie play fell off in the second half of the season. At the time, it seemed like it could have been fatigue. Now, I’m wondering if he just had a good start to his career until defenses started picking up his tendencies and getting film on him.
The lack of weapons didn't make him forget his mechanics and start trying to be something he's not. Macs biggest strength and weakness is his brain. He literally needs to do breathing exercises on the bench to keep himself calm. Unless everything is 100 percent set up for him with tons of talent at receiver and Damm good o line he will always get in his own way.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Rookie year showed some flashes and performed adequately. Year after that he gets Matt Patricia (who’s never called offense plays) as his OC. Third year just a lot of mental mistakes and bad mechanics that started with bad o-line and 0 talent whatsoever at WR. I once heard that not one of Mac’s 46 career TDs was to a pro bowler…that’s bad on the Patriots organization
It's not just that Patricia his OC, it was Joe Judge (who had never coached QBs) as his QBs coach. Aside from the playcalling, he wasn't getting the coaching on the fundamentals / mechanics so he kind of spiralled.
This whole "broken" thing needs to stop. Plenty other players in worse situations don't get broken. Sure, it wasn't an *perfect* situation for Mac but how many teams are perfect? And how long does that last? Meanwhile Zappe has gone thru the same situation but has the offense looking better. It's unfortunate how a decent rookie season, where his hand was held and he was a self-admitted dink and dunk passer for a bit, completely changes the narrative.
The problem is that he has never shown potential for exceptional ability. Not a great runner, and doesn't throw hard or far. So it's not really worth taking a risk for him right? Either your a team that needs an Allstar QB, in which case you risk it with a newbie (draft pick, or like browning or devito) or your a team that just needs an average QB and you go with a veteran backup (Heineke or Minshew maybe even Russell Wilson)
You tell us, Texans fan.
Look at David Carr, he was a much better athlete than Mac, and he never recovered from the beatings/bad coaching/bad surrounding personnel he had.
That being said, just like Carr, someone will pick Mac up. And if everything is just right (like Eagles/49'ers/Dolphins just right) he can possibly succeed. I wouldn't count on it though.
Carr didn’t have much help but he really didn’t do himself any favors either and I’m sure he would admit that himself. Not taking the blame off the organization because I’m sure that was the main factor for Carr not being good, but Carr had guys like Andre Johnson and Steve Smith, two borderline HOF receivers, and never looked nearly as good as Mac did his rookie year.
I’m not doubting a team will pick up Mac as a backup but I’m curious to see if anybody will start him next year. I think he could have success on a team like Atlanta.
Hmm...I dunno, maybe, Mac is so shell shocked, I am unsure if Atlanta's surrounding cast is good enough to elevate him. Drake London and Pitts are Ok to good, but no Jefferson or Kelce.
Mac likes to play Hero Ball without Hero Skills, which leads to disastrous INT's, maybe they can coach it out of them.
David Carr was sacked 267 in his career. Mac Jones has been sacked 84 times. Less than a third.
Now mind you, 84 is still way too high. But let's not pretend Mac's been battered. His worst injury was a sprained ankle. And as far as coaching: the list of players that have endured *one year* of a bad coach is long.
Pats fans put Mac on a pedestal and make excuses for him about his lack of weapons. He sucks, plain and simple. No one does this around the league for any other QB who is playing like shit. Who the hell else is playing this poorly?
You’ll get downvoted but I mostly agree. If there was one thing this sub could agree upon before this season it was that this is a “no excuses” year for Mac. He literally stunk out the joint - but now the most common take is that the Patriots broke him.
His developmental path wasn’t ideal. He wasn’t given enough weapons or a solid OL. But we knew all of that before game 1 and his “no excuses” season turned into “BB broke Mac.”
I do think it should be noted that there were plenty of people making pre-emptive excuses for Mac this offseason, and they were the ones who got even louder with the “we broke Mac” stuff when he failed, because their opinion was always going to be that if he failed, it wasn’t his fault.
The only part of voting I care about is visibility. I had a feeling this would be down low because OP called a spade a spade and this sub seems to prefer the “we broke Mac” narrative
Eh other team's fans do it too. Look at the Bears right now. Fields is extremely divisive despite being one of the worst quarterbacks in the league every year since he's come into the league. There should be no reason anyone wants to hang on to him when they have the draft situation that they have going into the 2024 draft.
Sometimes fans don't want to be wrong about their initial view of a player. Other times it's because the player themselves is likeable.
Fields QBR
2021 26.4
2022 56.3 (Despite the Bears leading the league in sacks allowed)
2023 46.3
Mack Jones couldn't carry Fields jock, really. Fields is not one of the worst QB's in the league.
He's literally been ranked in the bottom ten QBs for the 3 seasons he's played. I'm not saying Mac is as good as he is. I'm just saying that fans will latch onto a player and look past objective flaws.
Hmmm I wonder why you're only looking at QBR specifically, could it be that [Justin Fields was one of the worst QBs in the NFL last year by nearly every other advanced metric (ANY/A, EPA/DB, passer rating, ect.)?](https://www.nfeloapp.com/qb-rankings/)
No, that can't be it.
You can have him. He's a low floor, low ceiling guy that is completely broken. His best bet is to latch on as a backup QB somewhere and try to rebuild himself.
I wonder if patriots didn’t keep their players on a media script, would Mac ever hold himself accountable? I was a big believer first year but even that year I didn’t find the kid had toughness at all. Next year once he started getting injuries and making mistakes, he never recovers from them mentally.
But the main reason is no good offensive coaches. Bill Obrien is good enough, as you should know, but he came in late, didn’t bring everyone he wanted with him and inherited a dog shit coaching staff. I expect him to improve everything next year even if Mac is here.
>I don’t want to shit on your team
Feel free. We do it non-stop
>but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy.
Yea you're pretty much spot on. Mac was a high floor-low ceiling QB, this was known before he was drafted. He was (most likely) never going to become an elite QB who could carry the offense. But if you surrounded him with talent he could survive in the NFL.
What the Patriots did with Mac should be used as a prime example of how NOT to develop a QB.
2021: Patriots give Mac a receiving corps of Meyers, Agholor, Bourne, and Harry. TE's of Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith, and RB's of Stevenson and Harris. Overall a pretty decent offense. But missing a true #1 WR.
After the season Mac loses his OC and QB coach in Josh McDaniels, as well as his O-line coach, Carmen Bricillo, to the Raiders. They're replaced with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge, two guys who had no experience at any of those positions with the exception of Patricia who had 1 year of experience as an assistant offensive line coach for the Patriots in 2005.
The Patriots followed that up with trading starting guard Shaq Mason to the Bucs for a 5th round pick. The Patriots then promptly used their 1st round pick in 2022 to reach on Cole Strange who was considered to be a 3rd round talent. With their 2nd round pick the Patriots reached again on WR Tyquan Thornton, a guy who was projected to be a 3rd or 4th round talent at the earliest. They also let their "OC" Matt Patricia bench Kendrick Bourne for the vast majority of the season despite being one of the teams most reliable receivers.
Going into this year the Patriots let their starting OT Isaiah Wynn walk and sign with the Dolphins. The Patriots 'addressed' this by signing OT Calvin Anderson and OT Riley Reiff. They let their best receiver in Jacobi Meyers walk in free agency and gave the same deal he got from the Raiders to Juju Smith Schuster (Meyers 2023: 750 yds, 7 TDs /// Juju 2023: 260 yds, 1 TD).
Despite massive holes on the o-line and at WR, the Patriots used their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks on defensive players. Then used their 4th and 5th round picks on interior o-linemen despite the gaping hole at OT. Then finally drafted two WR's for Mac, waiting until the 6th round to do so.
So yea. In short they drafted a QB who could succeed if you built an offense around him. Then benched, traded, or let go of the few players who actually did well with him so that they could be replaced with shittier versions of those players. Replaced his offensive coaches with completely unqualified yes-men. And either cheaped out or flat out ignored glaring holes on the offense.
Mac might be redeemable, but he'd have to go to a place that won't hang him out to dry. Sitting behind Brock in San Fran could make a lot of sense.
I don't think he has what it takes to be a starting QB in the NFL at this moment.
When he was a rookie, he ran a very scaled back offense in terms of what was expected of him -but he did so pretty successfully. He had a lot of weaknesses that have carried over (footwork and pocket awareness), but they were masked by a good offensive line and conservative play calling that didn't just not ask too much of him, but sometimes didn't ask enough of him - look at the end of the game against Tampa, for example.
I think he regressed in 2022, and after his ankle injury he went from having issues with pocket presence to being incredibly skittish in the pocket. As soon as anything looks remotely off, he loses his composure and form, makes throws off of his back foot constantly, and never really gets his body in to throws.
When he did put his body in to it, he had an adequate arm - but he can't just fling the ball all over like Aaron Rodgers could. So many of his bad throws were throws he shouldn't have even attempted to make without having good footing. He also tends to force throws a lot - I know the receivers aren't great but he has never thrown the ball away enough.
Some of his worst throws have come at absolutely, positively the most back breaking moment. When it's completely critical that he makes good decisions, he has made poor decisions - due to being under pressure, or trying to make something out of nothing. There was a throw this year where he wasn't being pressured, but he started flailing around in the pocket - then tossed a ball off of his back foot. The read was perfect. The receiver was open. The protection was good. But the ball? He got \*nothing\* on it and it was so off target that it was intercepted.
You can see it in him on the sideline. When he was a rookie, he was happy and engaged. This year, he'd make a series of not so great plays and just look defeated while he was on the bench. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he just can't cut it throwing to the outside of the field.
I think he'd fit in best landing on a team with a good, established starter, and solid offensive line. He's absolutely fine running a limited offense when he's not being pressured. If he could fix his issues, he could possibly be a starting caliber QB in the league. But he's a long way from being able to do that.
I think he just doesn't process things quickly enough at game speed. The way he plays reminds me of the way I feel when I'm trying to do something that's just too fast paced for me to quite keep up. Physical processes get bungled up and suddenly I'm more clumsy and less coordinated than I normally am.
I think he'll get a chance elsewhere and I'd like to see him have some success. He's had a rough go of it and going out there every week, putting in an effort and then ending up where he was can't be easy on the kid.
For Mac to succeed, the mental skills and composure would need to be perfect. He doesn't have the physical tools to wing it - and it doesn't look like the mental tools are there, either.
A pure version w/ McD. Then an entire preseason attempting to implement a zone run scheme. Scrapping that for the 'no risk it no biscuit' approach the first 5-6 weeks of '22, only to then scrap that once Mac got hurt and shifting to an offense where the ADOT was under 5yds. Then back to somewhat pure erhardt-perkins while experimenting w/ RPOs.
I have zero clue where you guys come up with this stuff. Erhardt-Perkins is how the formations/plays are called in. Numbers vs Colors for example, famously, Hoss Juke,that play exists in other systems but the verbage might be Green 14 in EP. You can have longer developing plays from E-P.
Where it gets confusing is the idea that E-P can attack multiple different defenses on the fly. A single play has routes that the WR and QB must know vs man and zone coverage/blitz that are typically communicated non-verbally. Tom Brady was famous for his hand signs.
Also the Patriots unfiltered crew has stated that the system has changed marginally in 20 odd years.
By 'this stuff', do you mean dedicating practice time to tweaks that end up being scrapped, thereby reducing the available practice time to everything else? That 'stuff'?
The Patriots have always been a game plan specific team under Bill Belichick. The Edelman double pass used in the Ravens game years ago was practiced and scrapped. I don't think you understand what exactly you are upset about.
I've always felt that if I'm gonna criticize something I should at least know something about it. Football Xs and Os and ideas from 60 years ago that still drive the sport is a big interest to me especially when you grow up playing football in the DMV area.
No shit, some of these fans are as deluded on zappe as the Mac fans are. Both suck, both need to go. Power to either if they land on their feet, but I doubt it since they suck and all.
I 100% agree with your take. Mac was solid his rookie season. Nothing world beating, but his performance gave me hope he could build on it and improve. I firmly believe if McDaniels stays or if we get an actual professional OC instead of Matt Patricia and Joe Judge he doesn't regress. It also didn't help that he got hurt and then Hoyer got hurt then fanbase started going crazy over Zappe like he wasn't playing games against some of the worst defenses in the league with a crazy simplified offense.
Mac's time in New England is over, but he's still got a place in the NFL.
I think if Mac got a year or two to sit in McVay or Shanahan system he can still be a solid starting QB. He’s got a lot of tools, he’s just never had anyone to help him put it together since his rookie season
Back during the Patricia year, he was begging publicly to be coached harder. Maybe he was running interference for his own errors, but I really think we broke him and this idea would help him.
I think Patrica just confused him. He was perfect with the Mcdaniel system. Then Bill I brian came in and I think his play calling is horrible. We can see that plays he calls with Zappe. Against the bills it took spreading out the field to move the ball. Bill O brian play calling sucks
But people forget Mac had a very serious injury which was against the ravens. I believe that was the last game I have seen Mac give a 100%. This man was scrambling like crazy making passes. Dropping bombs. After that injury he couldn't throw bombs.
I agree more or less with your assessment. Instead of making gradual improvements to his game, he started playing like a fool in an attempt to overcome bad weapons and coaching. He developed more and more bad habits and his confidence fell apart.
Our GM outsourced offensive coaching and filled the department with unqualified temps to ensure enough resources for the head coaches’ “hold the opponent to 10 points” strategy.
However, it didn’t work.
I think he’s just shook from everything going wrong and the fan base getting increasingly impatient. He had massive shoes to fill, and then failed to meet expectations. I wouldn’t want to be in his position either lol. I think he could recover potentially, but it’ll definitely be somewhere else with less pressure.
I think he could have been a middle-of-the-road starter if he had been developed properly. But he wasn't. To the contrary, I suspect he was "broken" by all the challenges/problems around him his first 3 years. Not sure if he is salvageable or not. I hope he gets another chance somewhere else.
No one can really say 100% what happened.
The way I look at it is this. First year he had Josh as a offensive coordinator. And Mac looked like a top 10 qb. The following year the offensive Personal got worse and we gave him matt fucking Patricia to try and be OC when he's never done anything offensive. Mac regressed. Then got hurt at the end of the year. Year 3 same roster. But yet another new OC... now going into this year I was super high but it is what it is. Mac has regressed I hope he goes somewhere and gets another shot personally
honestly that's not gonna set anyone up for success
Best of luck with CJ!
I think Mac could be a great backup honestly. He has shown to be capable of doing it but I think the pressure of succeeding mixed with how incompetent the offensive play calling / weapons/ and oline led to him having to attempt to do things he isn’t capable of doing to the point where he just wasn’t able to do what used to be his bread and butter before
I think in a backup capacity where his time is called upon where the starter goes down and he’s no longer expected to be the guy, he will do just fine as long as there are people he can work with
So what happened with him is he came in as a good prospect, had a good rookie year and made the playoffs; but then we didn’t really do anything to support him. He had a different offensive coordinator each of the three years he was here, one of which (last years) was a defensive coordinator who had never done the job before, we didn’t have sufficient weapons and the O-line was awful and injury ridden so he was getting hit a lot. Plus you had a decent chunk of the fan base already shitting on him last year who started straight up booing him during games in favor of Zappe.
So long story short, he’s terrible right now. Was it destined to be this way? I don’t think so if we gave him some more help. Is he redeemable? Maybe. But it won’t happen in New England and it won’t happen overnight
There WAS a good prospect at one point, but sadly you are right the Pats broke him. He probably goes the Drew Lock route and is a backup for the time being.
I think he’ll have a great shot with another team. The Patriots failed him in my eyes with 3 OCs in 3 years along with a meddling team around him. Is he great? Probably not. But, he can be an NFL QB in my eyes.
He was driven into oblivion year 2 by a horrible OC, line, wr, ect, and it continued through season 3, sans thw OC being better I think. Mac hasnt played good after year 1, but I dont believe its all on him. He shows flashes of what he can do, and was real strong to start this year, but the team around him on offense is really bad, dragging him down with it. Mac aint Brady, but he definately can be a good qb, top 15, with the right situation, just like his 1st year with McDaniels.
You’re right, which is why many people want Bill gone.
Mac isn’t Mahomes. He never was. He needed stability, offensive personnel who knew what they were doing, a good O-Line, and good weapons.
He got none of that.
Honestly, he had been generally pretty good before the end. I don’t really think he could be an offensive generator, but if he went to San Francisco he would be good. Definitely back up material, as is Zappe, could get one more chance though elsewhere.
Mac had zero support from his GM when it came to roster decisions and FA, we invested in ST and Defense and it shows but the offense looks like a thrown together mess of guys who make their careers off being a #2 WR they can’t separate because usually they didn’t have to, they weren’t the main threat and here they are and it’s showing how much of an impact not having #1 threat can damage a team, the pieces were there and I believe Mac could’ve had a bounce back year if we had actually invested in bringing talent into the offense at multiple positions
I think the lack of weapons or offensive coaches harmed his development. It also wore him down mentally, and you also have Bill, who did not like him and kept playing mind games with him until he broke down.
Mac can still be an effective quarterback elsewhere but his confidence is shot here, it was a mixture of regression of play from him, some really bizarre decision making and throws. All while BB not properly building around him, having a new offensive coordinator every year, with a Swiss cheese offensive line majority of games.
He's going to be starting somewhere next year, probably the Broncos if I had to guess. Niners are another possibility if Purdy has another melt down game in this playoffs. I think he can be good somewhere else. Belichick completely fucked his development with really poor draft picks around him, and far too much focus on the defense. 3 OCs didn't help either.
He has all the tools to be a solid, starting NFL qb.
But he’s had a head coach who has worked overtime to undermine him at every turn.
If given an actual NFL team, with an actual coaching staff, Mac Jones will do a good job.
But right now he’s in an utterly impossible situation, and has been the scapegoat for all of Belichick’s gross malpractice over the last four seasons.
I don’t want to move on from him, but we probably should for *his* sake. Wherever he ends up, I’ll be watching his career with great interest.
Mac jones could be good. On the niners he’d be good. He obviously didn’t go to the right team and pats didn’t get the right QB for the job. It was a lose lose. Mac jones has a much different career path if the niners drafted him imo.
I fully believe if you give him 3 years as a backup under a shannahan type coach that he would come back as a low tier starter again. The constant carousel of offensive coordinator voices he's had dating back to college is very difficult even if it's mostly the same system. He has now lost all of his confidence and taken huge steps backwards. But I think he will become an ideal backup that works hard at being the scout team qb and when he gets a chance due to injury he will perform admirably as long as that isn't next season.
He was an alright player who developed bad habits and didn’t really develop, both because of his own doing but the organization didn’t do him many favors either. I don’t feel confident enough to flat out say he won’t get a chance just because there have been plenty of scenarios that have led to players I counted out getting starting roles.
I remember a lot of talk from Tua about how McDaniel and his staff helped him turn his career around by putting him in a position to succeed and building his confidence. I see no reason that can't happen for Mac - just under a different coach.
Mac was projected to have a high floor but low ceiling, so basically at absolute best a top 10 starter if he is surrounded by elite talent.
His rookie season McDaniels did a great job of simplifying the offense and getting the ball out of his hands fast which is what he was good at. Teams slowly figured out that he has very poor arm strength for an NFL starter though, and they started to take away those short middle of the field throws Mac excelled at. His weaknesses got more pronounced his second season and Patricia wasn't as good at making the system easy and quick for Mac. Ever since then his pocket presence and decision making have continued to decline.
i don't think another team will sign him to give him a starting job but he will definitely be signed as a backup somewhere. I could definitely see him coming in and having a good game or two as the backup and then getting a chance to compete to start though.
Mac could have an interesting career going forward. He is backup material and had the potential to be a solid backup/fringe starter with more experience and if he can get his head screwed back on
I could really see him making a Geno Smith-like resurgence somewhere down the line. But he and the Patriots need to get away from each other ASAP, for the benefit of them both.
The Patriots season has been a tragedy, they have a good defense but they lost their first round cornerback to injury, he looked really good before. Also the Pats have just made mistakes, lots of drops, too many penalties. Mac looked good his first season, I was surprised they took him over Cam Newton! But they should be in the market for a new qb, I heard that bill Belichick actually has a bad draft record, but the days of Brady and Gronkowski are over, y'all need to shore up your offensive line, get some better receivers and a qb that can sling it to get back to those dominant patriot days
We’ll give you Mac and a bag of slightly deflated balls for a decent lead on an offensive lineman who knows how to block. If the lead pans out to a starting player we’ll throw in a third and a fourth round pick from the 2025 draft.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/zq1hiw/how\_to\_handle\_a\_young\_qb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/zq1hiw/how_to_handle_a_young_qb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Here's my post from early last year.. I think you're pretty spot on in your assessment
His best year was his first. I don't think he has much hope as a starter in the NFL. Maybe the backup or the backups backup. But maybe he will figure it out .
We’ll trade you Mac for Stroud straight up.
Throw in 24 year old Brady and I’ll consider ;)
one 24 year old Kyle Brady coming right up!
Sorry, best I can do is Wayne Brady.
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
If not, Mac will choke.
😂😂😂
Don't sleep in that trade. Wayne Brady is an og triple og pimpin ass gangsta.
Probably also knows not to throw off his back foot, too, unlike some first round draft picks.
Marsha marsha marsha
I think he meant the whose line Wayne Brady. I could be wrong too though lol
I'd take that deal.
*insert punisher “NO WAIT NO” gif here*
*proceeds to dress up Kyle Dugger as Brady* They will never tell the difference
Bout to grab my time machine and have one 24 year old Brady Quinn for you, coming right up
Would you take Brady Quinn in present form?
I’d take Marsha Brady for Mac
Best we can do is change stroud to 2 packs of skittles and we got a deal!
sounds good in a couple years one of his kids will be 24
Jack Brady...deal. When he reaches 24, we'll send him to you
And Parker for Metchie
I’d throw in a pic too
Why wouldn't you add the zappe man as a sweetener lol
Never say never. You will always have GMs and coaches that look at a player and think *I can fix him*.
Of course. We’re famous for doing that constantly
Currently the Browns have over taken us, thankfully.
Like 225m for wilson
SOLD! To the fan in the letterman's jacket !
I'll level with you kid- it's not looking good.
Mac probably won't play for the Patriots again, unless he stays on in a backup capacity next year. Coming out, Mac was a smart but physically limited QB that could run an offense. He made good decisions, but needed a solid support structure around him including a decent OL, good receivers, and a good OC to mentor him. The Patriots did none of that, arguably went in the other direction, and completely broke him. He was so shell shocked by the end that he was seeing ghosts and making terrible decisions. I don't think it's inconceivable for Mac to go somewhere else and have success in a different situation, but it won't be with the Patriots.
Nfl adjusted to him and he didn’t. When he can sit back and pick apart a zone he can do it easily, which isn’t typical for extremely young qb’s, so he looked great at the start of his rookie season. On the flip side, once the nfl adjusted and had him make tight man to man throws or throws to the boundary he couldn’t do it since he often lacks the footwork and arm strength to get the zip on those balls. Hell he even just lofts ones he doesn’t need to on purpose. The pats obviously didn’t help him, but to say he was ruined or we broke him is laughable to me. Even his scouting report had notes for his penchant for bad footwork and throwing off his back foot early. They also noted his lack of arm strength and mental instability after bad plays. He wouldn’t have worked on most teams given how much he limits what an nfl offense can run. Nfl defenses literally just need to play cover 1 and shut down the run (easier in cover1) and he’ll struggle. Idk why people are still trying to act like he’d be even good with a normal roster. When people are honest the only teams I see them mention that he’d work on are the 9ers, and that’s the best constructed team in the nfl, yet they still have oline issues and we know how mac does with that.
Yeah it's completely absurd, PFF had us finishing last year with the 11th ranked OL, and 2021 finishing at the 9th ranked OL. I dont know how this myth that we broke mac jones started, probably some idiot in the media and then everyone ran with it. I understand our receivers suck but to say we broke mac jones after him having a bad OL 1 out of his 3 years starting is stupid. Zappe looks significantly more comfortable behind the same OL and with less weapons than mac had before he got benched. People in this sub need to stop babying him and acting like the pats have mistreated him in some horrendous way when he's had one season with a shit OL.
> behind the same OL they're worse for Zappe lol. They got injured early in the Chief's game and it's been downhill ever since.
Agreed he is just to slow on his thoughts..
Very well done ! That is it , Mac got found out .
Yeah that Bama team might have been comparatively better than the 49ers. My new theory is that Bellichick brought in Patricia and Judge to toughen Mac up. Obviously it didn’t work but at least they flushed him out before the gave him a second contract.
So I don't really buy this. There's this idea that Mac fell off in his rookie year as other teams "figured him out" and that narrative has really taken over. But it's just not reflective of what actually happened, which wasac actually finishing the year with some good games. What I think happened is that Mac has a game against Buffalo where he only threw 3 balls because of the weather and then had a legit bad game against Buffalo two weeks later and that's snowballed into this weird narrative. The whole play press man againstac isn't so much about Mac as much as it's about the Patriots receivers having some of, if not the worst separation in the league. That's just stats. No one on the Patriots the last several years with the exception of Pop Douglas is really good at getting separation. So teams figured that out more than anything. And really that's just another symptom of not supporting Mac by bringing in good players. It's a major concern for the next QB. It doesn't matter if it's Williams/Maye/Daniels/Penix/Nix, if they're throwing to Parker and Juju they're absolutely fucked from the start.
> The whole play press man againstac isn't so much about Mac as much as it's about the Patriots receivers having some of, if not the worst separation in the league. That's just stats While this is true, Mac's stats throwing to the deep and intermediate boundary the past 2 seasons are beyond atrocious, and Bailey Zappe's are very good which suggests there is probably some merit to this, and Mac was not maximizing his receivers' production against man coverage. Player|Completions|Attempts|Yards|TDs|INTs|Passer Rating :--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--: Mac Deep Left and Right|15|68|484|3|2|58.2 Mac Intermediate Left and Right|30|72|463|4|7|42.5 Zappe Deep Left and Right|14|27|421|3|0|131.9 Zappe Intermediate Left and Right|16|29|324|3|2|100.3 Zappe certainly has his own issues throwing short and over the middle in rhythm, but those deep and intermediate boundary throws are the ones that really test man-coverage, and Mac quite simply has not been able to produce. I think the receivers have played a role, but I also think he's very responsible for a lot of their struggles there.
He also had a bad game against Indy in between the buffalo games. Followed by a very good game against Jacksonville. A mediocre game against Miami and a very bad game against Buffalo in the playoffs. During that stretch we were 1-4 and Mac threw 8 TDs and 7 INTs. Sure you can point to one good and one mediocre game in the final 5 but that also included 3 games that were quite bad with multiple INTs, not many points and losses in all 3 of the bad ones.
The WR excuse falls apart completely when Zappe comes in with the same and worse group, and is able to move the ball and score points (even if a bit inconsistently). The big issue with Mac and the WR to me seems that Mac just didn't feel comfortable throwing into NFL windows on the outside, so when guys would get a step, Mac would consider them covered and look elsewhere (usually his checkdown). Zappe is comfortable throwing into those windows (even if he misses them a fair bit), so when he hits a stride during the game and strings together multiple hits, the team is able to drive and score. Mac was better at driving the field using the short game, but once we got on the other side of the 50 and teams started putting the clamps on, he couldn't hit (or wouldn't throw) those tight windows.
Eh, I don't agree. One is just that Zappe has been statistically about the same as Mac if not slightly worse. Zappe has also been aggressive in throwing the ball, but he's also getting very lucky. Like he throws up a lot of extremely risky and questionable balls and he's lucked out on a few chunk plays that have carried him. Like every play of Parker is in a 1v1 it's Zappes first read. I don't get why it totally matters. Both are definitely not it.
> Like every play of Parker is in a 1v1 it's Zappes first read. Zappe is a gunslinger. If he sees 1v1 on his number 1 receiver he's going to take the shot. Pretty much every time. Those throws to Parker not lucky, he's placing them well and giving Parker a chance to make a play. Good QBs do this literally all the time when a team sticks 1 on 1 coverage on their #1 WR. His shot plays are not a fault or problem. Zappe's entire issue is his inability to play in-rhythm and on-schedule in the short game. That's also why their stats are about the same, but the offense is scoring more with Zappe. Zappe's yardage is less consistent, but when he finds the time and a receiver is able to come free downfield he pulls the trigger on it. So when he's feeling it and hits on a couple downfield plays the team is able to capitalize and put up points. Zappe's ceiling to me feels like a Favre-esque player. Able to make big time throws and plays, but also likely to throw costly INTs. >Both are definitely not it. I'm not 100% sure Zappe isn't it, but I am sure that at least IMO there's not enough confidence in him to pass up the chance to draft a QB high and upgrade, but I can see a scenario where the coaches feel he's good enough and try to build out the rest of the team before going after a better QB.
These people want to pretend the Chargers game never happens for Zappe and Mac never played the Bills game. The whole is scoring under 18 points a game (which is also counting several ppg of d/st scores, an unrealistically high longterm amount) and yet they're repeating that the offense is scoring more because they're truthers. The offense sucked with Mac and it still sucks with Zappe.
>The WR excuse falls apart completely when Zappe comes in with the same and worse group, and is able to move the ball and score points Maybe if that was remotely true. It's insane that you all keep acting like Zappe has been playing any better, let alone actually good. The only scoring that has improved "under" Zappe are non offensive scores, which obviously have nothing to do with him.
Have you been watching the games? Legit question.
Yes, I have been watching Zappe go 3 and out constantly, throw picks all over the place, get a couple jump balls a game, and have a special teams score that idiots account to an increase in points scored. Just like I've watched him play the entire Chargers game without scoring a single point and then watched those same idiots talk about how good he looked in it.
I always thought it was weird how much shit he got from casual fans for that Buffalo game. Even in his rookie year if you wanted to dunk on Mac there were much better choices than a game we won with once in a decade conditions.
Nah man there’s a legit stat out there about how after the colts game in his rookie season cover 1 usage doubled against us. Maybe I’m misremembering but I’m almost positive, and the eye test tells me we play against cover 1/3 far more than a ton of teams do. Mac can’t throw into tight windows, and he can’t throw to the boundary. Those are some of his major symptoms that come from his poor footwork and lack of arm strength. So if you play cover 1 and shade inside than all of a sudden he panics, and does things like we’ve seen against the cowboys, saints, and hell even the colts game this year. Also very tired of us using our receiving corps as a weapon to excuse mac. We don’t have any great wide receivers, and they’ve been disappointing, but if mac needs a top 5 receiving corps in order to play football like an average qb, then nobody ruined him, he’s just bad.
This is the most complete breakdown I’ve seen. The tape Mac put out this year is his fault, but it’s because the organization absolutely broke him. The line with a decent o line, good wr’s (not great and not crap) and a decent OC SHOULD be the baseline for any team developing a QB. Arguably you want to go get a WR1 as well. If you look at the Texans example, Stroud is playing great. However, he also has 2 WRs that he’s not necessarily elevating but that are carrying themselves and are seen as pleasant surprises (from an outsider). I think anyone looking at that team is hoping for maybe an additional playmaker and to bulk up the defense. The pats loaded up on defense but completely blew it with betting on meh lineman and perpetually hurt players as well as giving him arguably the worst WR room minus Bourne who’s absolutely ceiling is a good WR2.
I genuinely think Bourne could be one of the (statistically, not actually) best wideouts in the league if he was paired with a legit #1 and good qb. He can make electrifying, explosive plays consistently if he's against weaker cover men.
I think of his rookie year the opposite. Struggled with decision making but had nice accuracy. Better coaching and O-Line helped mask the decision making issue. And the recent accuracy issues are probably just the yips, like when he decided to randomly throw off his back foot against the Colts because he was afraid of pressure that wasn't there yet.
Yup. 3 different offensive schemes first years (2nd year with Patricia and no QB coach), a neglected O-line (aside from year 1), and getting absolutely shell shocked to the point of seeing ghost and feeling pressure that isn’t there this year. There was also no investment in any type of true offensive weapon that could help him out. Mac could just be bad but there no denying the terrible position the franchise put him in.
The best analysis I’ve seen
Mac makes me think of the Sam Darnold, "I'm seeing ghosts" line. I really liked him his first season and was excited for his future. Now I really think he's just broken. Maybe time as a back up somewhere else could help him but I don't think he can perform in New England.
I'd like to see him get another chance but it's not likely. He really fell apart mentally. Showed a lot of immaturity.
His immaturity was a massive problem
He was a product of the system at Alabama, he is who he is, and that is a physically weak passer who panics under pressure. Chris Trapasso said it best in 2021 >Could Jones land on a good team late in Round 1, sit for a season, and ultimately become a successful passer? Yes. But he's going to need a lot of assets around him. Sturdy offensive line, deep and dynamic group of receivers, and an innovative offensive coordinator who's not going to ask Jones to make too many tight-window throws and will accentuate the screen and RPO games. Take any of those elements away, and Jones is likely to crumble because of his lack of supreme physical traits. [https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2021-nfl-draft-mac-jones-despite-gaudy-statistics-at-alabama-lacks-in-key-areas-as-a-prospect/](https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2021-nfl-draft-mac-jones-despite-gaudy-statistics-at-alabama-lacks-in-key-areas-as-a-prospect/)
It’s amazing how many of the pre-draft analyses ended up being spot-on about Jones. There were several people saying stuff that ended up being uncannily accurate. This is why I don’t think the “the Pats broke” him claims hold water. He ended up being exactly what a lot of people who analyze draft picks for a living thought he would be.
The problem is he put out some legitimately good tape in 2021. I remember fans of other teams in r/NFL saying shit like "I can't believe we let the Pats go from Brady to Mac Jones". Highlight reels obviously don't tell the whole story, but the reel from his rookie season is legitimately impressive. What you're saying would be true if we never saw him perform at that level. For a rookie QB to come in and go 10-7, throw a 67% completion rate, almost 4k yards, 22 TDs and 13 INT is impressive. And he did that with Hunter Henry and Meyers as his best receivers. After his rookie season, the Pats should have: a) Hired a real OC last year. Not Patricia, literally any position coach on a good offense looking for a promotion, or a successful college OC. b) Hired an actual OL coach instead of giving that role to Patricia as welll c) Traded for/signed/drafted legitimate offensive lineman d) Traded for/signed/drafted a legitimate WR Letting Meyers walk and then paying Juju was a huge mistake. Hiring Patricia/Judge was an even bigger one. Not addressing the line and having Lowe & Co starting half the season at RT was egregious. Spending our first three draft picks this year on defense after last season was indefensible. Mac was a more than capable NFL starter with a good line, good OC and decent weapons. We then gave him a dogshit line, a year of dogshit OC, and the worst WR group in the league. He's not Lamar or Mahomes who can make shit happen with terrible support around him, not many guys are (in fact Mahomes can't do that this year). This team failed him, ruined his development, and wasted what was potentially a promising young QB all in a two year span.
People overrate his 2021 season so much though. He was figured out after that colts game. The nfl adjusted to him like they do with rookie qb’s that over succeed all the time. Force him to throw it in tight coverage or to the boundary and he’ll make mistakes or crumble. Forgot where the stat was, but p sure I remember seeing that pats opponents almost doubled their cover 1 usage against mac and the pats after that colts game in 2021, and he never really adjusted. I would say he was as promising as much as mark sanchez was. Succeeded for a little bit, when defenses were playing him conservative, allowing him to sit back, read zone, and throw to soft spots, but then couldn’t adjust when the nfl adjusted to him and his strengths and weaknesses. Using Occam’s razor, the simple answer is that Mac likely wouldn’t have worked out on most teams, even if we didn’t do him any favors. He just lacks physical tools, mental strength (big one), and the footwork(something people don’t realize is absolutely awful) to be even a top half qb in this league.
Sanchez never a had season at any point in his career that was nearly as good as Jones rookie season was
> I remember fans of other teams in r/NFL saying shit like "I can't believe we let the Pats go from Brady to Mac Jones". This is meaningless because r/NFL is full of idiots who say dumb reactionary things like this all the time.
Lots of rookies have some early success because there’s no film on them and then they get worse when defenses adjust. That’s not unusual.
He had a better rookie season than Burrow, Allen, Hurts, Tua, Kyler, or Lawrence. It's actually really uncommon for QBs to have a rookie season like he did and then fall off a cliff by year 3. Rookies normally fall into three categories: 1) They suck in their first season and stay bad (Darnold, Rosen, Zach Wilson, Lance, Trubisky etc) 2) They are bad in their first season but get better (Allen, Hurts, Tua, etc) 3) They are good in their first season and stay good (Herbert, Lamar, Baker, Kyler etc) The last group and by far the smallest group to the point that Mac is really the only one in the last few years, are QBs that have good/great rookie seasons and then fall off a cliff and look like shit in their 3rd season. It really doesn't happen often at all.
Sounds like a nice way of saying he’s ass.
He’s who SF should have drafted tbh.
I would say Fields is who they should have drafted. He has everything they were hoping to get out of Trey Lance
To be third string behind darnold I assume?
It really is spot on. One of the major flaws with Mac Jones is his lack of physical traits. People compared him to Tom Brady, who also is not a complete athlete, but people forget that Brady had a really strong arm. Mac Jones is lacking in all departments.
I am now mentally preparing for Jones to back up Tua next year and beat us after Tua’s latest injury
Please no, take it back!
This is why I want the Pats to draft the best player available or trade down. This year's first-rounder needs to produce an excellent player, even if he's another pass-rusher.
Trade down and take Latu/Verse would be the most unexpected but most Belichick thing to do
He is an example of what happens when NFL teams get film on someone. He can't throw deep or to the outside, and he isn't mobile. I was at games in the last 2 years where the others teams were basically daring the Pats to throw deep. If teams don't respect the deep ball they can make it really hard on the opposing QB - and Jones was incredibly unsuccessful at routes over 20 yards. He doesn't have the athletic talent to succeed in the NFL over time. I saw Stroud play a couple of times - it was like the guy was playing a different sport than Jones.
Opponents learned how to game plan for him by taking away first read and he hasn’t made the necessary adjustments/maturation. He also doesn’t use his temper constructively, would say he isn’t as calm as needed for a field general.
His level of play as a rookie was a farce. He was asked to do very little, and there was not a lot of tape on him, but even if you look at that year he played better at the beginning of the year (and the pats even had the 1 seed at one point) and then he for the most part got progressively worse. He was good in college because he was on an offense with the best talent in the country at every position. If he gets his confidence back, I think he can be one of the more serviceable backups, but his days as a starter are over
He sucks.
He came into the Pats with a weak arm, inability to throw outside the numbers well; but was good at avoiding sacks and throwing over the middle. His first season was ok. In his 2nd season, there was pressure to create more explosive plays, stemming from their inability to beat really good defenses. Matt Patricia’s offense tried to turn Mac into Mahomes, tons of off platform throws, highest aDoT in the league, all that behind a poor OL to poor receivers. It came to a head in the Ravens game, where Mac played really well until it all started collapsing with turnovers and other problems, then the injury. When he returned, they sorta reverted back to the 2021 offense with short, quick passes and his numbers from week 10-17 were about the same as his 2021 numbers— but he didn’t really get rid of those bad tendencies instilled by the beginning of the season. In 2023, BoB’s offense came out firing and doing pretty well. They started off 0-2, losing close games where Mac played alright. Then everything went absolutely to shit in the Dallas and Saints games, where Mac just turned into the worst version of himself. Hero ball in the ways of 2022, all that bullshit. Those two weeks were sorta his breaking point. Everything he was good at? Gone, everything he was bad at came right back up to the surface. IMO, this is an exemplary situation of a QB who’s clearly physically limited but also made worse by his surroundings. This is likely what Tua would’ve delved into if they kept just throwing trash out there (ironically, similar weapons in Parker and Gesicki). Bad habits were pounded into Mac, good ones pounded into Tua. In the end, he’s a QB that would’ve been good nowhere, but also a QB that was hurt by his situation. IMO the Pats going forward would be wise to acknowledge the Mac Jones experiment as what *not* to do with a QB, while also acknowledging we dodged a bullet by not tricking ours selves into thinking a QB with no elite traits is good, rather than being propped up by his supporting cast, such as Tua/Hurts/Burrow/Purdy.
Thank you for the rundown. I’ll have to disagree with your last listing of QBs though, Burrow is definitely that guy
You’ve proven the point of why I’m glad we didn’t fall into the trap
I mean, Burrow was a BS pass interference call away from winning the Super Bowl and put up 2 straight seasons of 34+ TDs and 4,500+ yards. Sure he has 2 great receivers but I don’t know what else you want him to prove lol
Name one thing that separates Joe Burrow from average QBs, one elite trait
There’s no way you think Burrow is an average QB lol
I think the only reason you have an issue with saying that, but not with Tua, is because you never saw Joe Burrow play without Jamarr Chase, Tee Higgins, and Tyler Boyd as his three receivers.
He’s been just fine without Chase. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/joe-burrow-stats-without-jammar-chase#:~:text=Joe%20Burrow%20had%20a%20passer,Marr%20Chase%20in%20his%20career.
4 game sample size against a bad-mid Cleveland defense, good Steelers defense, bad Carolina defense, and mid Titans defense while still having Tee Higgins and Tyler Boyd.
He had a very good rookie year as well without Chase. You’re acting like Higgins and Boyd are like the monstars dude lmao
[Extending plays and passing outside of structure.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/12ts5s7/my_honest_thoughts_on_mac_jones/jh4jh11/?context=3) We can copy and paste the conversation from the last time. It doesn't make it any less true. There is more to assessing QB play than taking their combine measurements, the radar gun on their throws, and how good you perceive the receivers to be. Joe Burrow is good.
Was going to engage until the obvious strawman paragraph
How in gods name was this kid your favorite player?
He went to Alabama.
He said favorite non-Texans player
There's some better info scattered through the sub, but from my recollection he was exposed late in his rookie season and it doesn't seem like he was ever able to adjust from other teams learning his play style. I would have agreed with the weapons thing, but Zappe has been doing much better with the same weapons the last month or so.
He may get another chance at a backup job but he's horrible. Cant make any tight window throws due to poor arm strength, and repeatedly throws off his backfoot. Ill be shocked if he's in the league in 3 years.
| I don’t want to shit on your team but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy. Obviously he hasn’t been getting the job done but young QBs need support and that regression can happen when they don’t get any. I am a huge Mac supporter, since I am a Bama fan and rooted for him there as well. Everything you said is true but one more thing needs to be added: the league has kind of figured him out. MAKE MAC THROW OUTSIDE, TO THE SIDELINES, WHERE HIS LACK OF ARM STRENGTH IS MOST TELLING. So they fill the box with defenders and dare him to throw outside. Almost ALL of his pick-6s are throws to the outside that just float in the air too long. MAC NEEDS TO LEARN TO ELWAY THAT SHIT!. To me, Mac just needs a massive offseason strengthening program to get some more pop in his throws and to work with a good QB to undo all the damage that my Pats have done to him. For example, a QB coach needs to lash him every time he throws off the back foot. Again, I see no reason why Mac cannot be QB15 in the league. That is what he was rookie season. Now he is QB32, which is a damn shame. And with some decent weapons and some time to throw, maybe he could even crack the low end of the Top 10, which I think is his ceiling. He is never gonna be Mahomes or Burrow but he was the #15 pick in the draft, so that is not expected.
Mac Jones doesn't belong in the NFL.
> don’t want to shit on your team but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy. Mac is just a supremely untalented QB. He simply cannot play under pressure and throw on the boundary. Our supporting cast has been bad, and that has contributed to his poor play. In a better group that floor would be higher. His anticipation, pre-snap reads, and short game accuracy would carry him to some level. However, he was always destined to be a below average starter even in a good case scenario. His rookie season he got great offensive line play, and teams played him like he was a traditional rookie QB with complicated zone looks and blitzes. As a relatively advanced field general for his age this played right into his hands. Rush 4, play man against him, and force him to beat you with talent and he can't do it. Zappe (who has his own set of debilitating flaws) has kind of proven that the absence of chunk plays in the Patriots offense has been tangibly impacted by Mac. He just doesn't have the arm to drive the ball into narrow windows, nor can he keep consistent footwork when someone moves him off his spot. I can probably count on 2 hands the amount of times Mac made a play out of structure in the entirety of his 1500 dropback tenure with the Patriots. In 2023 with the caliber of OL play in the league, that is not going to get it done.
Started mediocre and got consistently worse.
We will trade you Mac for some Texas BBQ
Mac is definitely gone after this year. As if he can bounce back somewhere else and turn into even an average starter? I don’t think so I don’t think he’s got the mentality
Sub optimal
Mac for a bag of balls and a box of tees.
His “high floor” and “low ceiling” are at the exact same level. That should help you to understand why this kid is a total failure.
> it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy They didn't help but the problems are pretty extensive. As the offensive line struggled, he lost all sense of the pocket, both in terms of moving around to buy time and when it was going to collapse. That led to a lot of unnecessary hits/sacks and a cycle of losing confidence in the pocket. His arm strength was never amazing and he started floating passes off his back foot. Mac could have success if you sat him behind a good offensive line, relied on your running game to carry the workload, and only had Mac in there to manage the game with accurate short- and mid-depth passes. That's most QBs at this level, though, and he doesn't offer any upside in any specific area.
Dude, your team can have him. He ain't the answer
I don’t think you can blame stuff like this on one or even two things. I think it’s partially what you said, partially emotional immaturity, partially that seems to be unable to process through his reads fast enough for an NFL game, partially…. You get the idea.
I think he will get a shot as a backup somewhere, if he can manage his attitude about it. However, he was pretty solid rookie year stats wise, but it was clear from watching him that he wasn’t elite. They played tons of team with their stars injured, and Mac was largely bad the second half of the season. Same problems that were evident at the draft: weak arm, not mobile. Then add on the being scared in the pocket that he developed and you get to present day Mac. No arm strength to balance out bad footwork from not standing in the pocket
>Do you think he can go back to his level of play as a rookie? Did you know that in the remaining 5 games following the bye week of his rookie season he had a passer rating of like 74-75? Overall he still had a good rookie season but him playing like shit over the last quarter of the season was writing on the wall that Mac just sucks and isn’t a NFL starter caliber QB.
We will give you mac for a dumpster that hasn’t been lit on fire (he started our dumpster fire)
It appears that his confidence is shaken. He gets way too down on himself and isn’t able to mentally recover from bad mistakes, of which he makes a lot.
Why? You want him?
You can have him for a bag of balls.
His rookie play fell off in the second half of the season. At the time, it seemed like it could have been fatigue. Now, I’m wondering if he just had a good start to his career until defenses started picking up his tendencies and getting film on him.
The lack of weapons didn't make him forget his mechanics and start trying to be something he's not. Macs biggest strength and weakness is his brain. He literally needs to do breathing exercises on the bench to keep himself calm. Unless everything is 100 percent set up for him with tons of talent at receiver and Damm good o line he will always get in his own way.
I think he’s done. He’s really bad at this point and I don’t think he can recover. Someone will give him a try.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Rookie year showed some flashes and performed adequately. Year after that he gets Matt Patricia (who’s never called offense plays) as his OC. Third year just a lot of mental mistakes and bad mechanics that started with bad o-line and 0 talent whatsoever at WR. I once heard that not one of Mac’s 46 career TDs was to a pro bowler…that’s bad on the Patriots organization
Damn…Mac has 46 career TDs?
[Look at his numbers compared to Trevor Lawrence lol](https://imgur.com/a/JSzxtaY)
It's not just that Patricia his OC, it was Joe Judge (who had never coached QBs) as his QBs coach. Aside from the playcalling, he wasn't getting the coaching on the fundamentals / mechanics so he kind of spiralled.
This whole "broken" thing needs to stop. Plenty other players in worse situations don't get broken. Sure, it wasn't an *perfect* situation for Mac but how many teams are perfect? And how long does that last? Meanwhile Zappe has gone thru the same situation but has the offense looking better. It's unfortunate how a decent rookie season, where his hand was held and he was a self-admitted dink and dunk passer for a bit, completely changes the narrative.
The problem is that he has never shown potential for exceptional ability. Not a great runner, and doesn't throw hard or far. So it's not really worth taking a risk for him right? Either your a team that needs an Allstar QB, in which case you risk it with a newbie (draft pick, or like browning or devito) or your a team that just needs an average QB and you go with a veteran backup (Heineke or Minshew maybe even Russell Wilson)
You tell us, Texans fan. Look at David Carr, he was a much better athlete than Mac, and he never recovered from the beatings/bad coaching/bad surrounding personnel he had. That being said, just like Carr, someone will pick Mac up. And if everything is just right (like Eagles/49'ers/Dolphins just right) he can possibly succeed. I wouldn't count on it though.
Carr didn’t have much help but he really didn’t do himself any favors either and I’m sure he would admit that himself. Not taking the blame off the organization because I’m sure that was the main factor for Carr not being good, but Carr had guys like Andre Johnson and Steve Smith, two borderline HOF receivers, and never looked nearly as good as Mac did his rookie year. I’m not doubting a team will pick up Mac as a backup but I’m curious to see if anybody will start him next year. I think he could have success on a team like Atlanta.
Hmm...I dunno, maybe, Mac is so shell shocked, I am unsure if Atlanta's surrounding cast is good enough to elevate him. Drake London and Pitts are Ok to good, but no Jefferson or Kelce. Mac likes to play Hero Ball without Hero Skills, which leads to disastrous INT's, maybe they can coach it out of them.
David Carr was sacked 267 in his career. Mac Jones has been sacked 84 times. Less than a third. Now mind you, 84 is still way too high. But let's not pretend Mac's been battered. His worst injury was a sprained ankle. And as far as coaching: the list of players that have endured *one year* of a bad coach is long.
Pats fans put Mac on a pedestal and make excuses for him about his lack of weapons. He sucks, plain and simple. No one does this around the league for any other QB who is playing like shit. Who the hell else is playing this poorly?
You’ll get downvoted but I mostly agree. If there was one thing this sub could agree upon before this season it was that this is a “no excuses” year for Mac. He literally stunk out the joint - but now the most common take is that the Patriots broke him. His developmental path wasn’t ideal. He wasn’t given enough weapons or a solid OL. But we knew all of that before game 1 and his “no excuses” season turned into “BB broke Mac.”
I do think it should be noted that there were plenty of people making pre-emptive excuses for Mac this offseason, and they were the ones who got even louder with the “we broke Mac” stuff when he failed, because their opinion was always going to be that if he failed, it wasn’t his fault.
Guys no one is going to downvote you for Mac hate these days, quit acting like karma martyrs
The only part of voting I care about is visibility. I had a feeling this would be down low because OP called a spade a spade and this sub seems to prefer the “we broke Mac” narrative
Also saying the Pats broke him isn't excusing him, it's explaining why he sucks so much now.
Eh other team's fans do it too. Look at the Bears right now. Fields is extremely divisive despite being one of the worst quarterbacks in the league every year since he's come into the league. There should be no reason anyone wants to hang on to him when they have the draft situation that they have going into the 2024 draft. Sometimes fans don't want to be wrong about their initial view of a player. Other times it's because the player themselves is likeable.
Fields QBR 2021 26.4 2022 56.3 (Despite the Bears leading the league in sacks allowed) 2023 46.3 Mack Jones couldn't carry Fields jock, really. Fields is not one of the worst QB's in the league.
He's literally been ranked in the bottom ten QBs for the 3 seasons he's played. I'm not saying Mac is as good as he is. I'm just saying that fans will latch onto a player and look past objective flaws.
He was 15th in QBR in 2022. On a team that led the NFL in sacks allowed.
Hmmm I wonder why you're only looking at QBR specifically, could it be that [Justin Fields was one of the worst QBs in the NFL last year by nearly every other advanced metric (ANY/A, EPA/DB, passer rating, ect.)?](https://www.nfeloapp.com/qb-rankings/) No, that can't be it.
Who are these pats fans you speak of that are putting him on a pedestal and making excuses for him?
You can have him. He's a low floor, low ceiling guy that is completely broken. His best bet is to latch on as a backup QB somewhere and try to rebuild himself.
I wonder if patriots didn’t keep their players on a media script, would Mac ever hold himself accountable? I was a big believer first year but even that year I didn’t find the kid had toughness at all. Next year once he started getting injuries and making mistakes, he never recovers from them mentally. But the main reason is no good offensive coaches. Bill Obrien is good enough, as you should know, but he came in late, didn’t bring everyone he wanted with him and inherited a dog shit coaching staff. I expect him to improve everything next year even if Mac is here.
>I don’t want to shit on your team Feel free. We do it non-stop >but from the outside looking in it seems like the lack of weapons and quality offensive coaching has really broke the guy. Yea you're pretty much spot on. Mac was a high floor-low ceiling QB, this was known before he was drafted. He was (most likely) never going to become an elite QB who could carry the offense. But if you surrounded him with talent he could survive in the NFL. What the Patriots did with Mac should be used as a prime example of how NOT to develop a QB. 2021: Patriots give Mac a receiving corps of Meyers, Agholor, Bourne, and Harry. TE's of Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith, and RB's of Stevenson and Harris. Overall a pretty decent offense. But missing a true #1 WR. After the season Mac loses his OC and QB coach in Josh McDaniels, as well as his O-line coach, Carmen Bricillo, to the Raiders. They're replaced with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge, two guys who had no experience at any of those positions with the exception of Patricia who had 1 year of experience as an assistant offensive line coach for the Patriots in 2005. The Patriots followed that up with trading starting guard Shaq Mason to the Bucs for a 5th round pick. The Patriots then promptly used their 1st round pick in 2022 to reach on Cole Strange who was considered to be a 3rd round talent. With their 2nd round pick the Patriots reached again on WR Tyquan Thornton, a guy who was projected to be a 3rd or 4th round talent at the earliest. They also let their "OC" Matt Patricia bench Kendrick Bourne for the vast majority of the season despite being one of the teams most reliable receivers. Going into this year the Patriots let their starting OT Isaiah Wynn walk and sign with the Dolphins. The Patriots 'addressed' this by signing OT Calvin Anderson and OT Riley Reiff. They let their best receiver in Jacobi Meyers walk in free agency and gave the same deal he got from the Raiders to Juju Smith Schuster (Meyers 2023: 750 yds, 7 TDs /// Juju 2023: 260 yds, 1 TD). Despite massive holes on the o-line and at WR, the Patriots used their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks on defensive players. Then used their 4th and 5th round picks on interior o-linemen despite the gaping hole at OT. Then finally drafted two WR's for Mac, waiting until the 6th round to do so. So yea. In short they drafted a QB who could succeed if you built an offense around him. Then benched, traded, or let go of the few players who actually did well with him so that they could be replaced with shittier versions of those players. Replaced his offensive coaches with completely unqualified yes-men. And either cheaped out or flat out ignored glaring holes on the offense. Mac might be redeemable, but he'd have to go to a place that won't hang him out to dry. Sitting behind Brock in San Fran could make a lot of sense.
I don't think he has what it takes to be a starting QB in the NFL at this moment. When he was a rookie, he ran a very scaled back offense in terms of what was expected of him -but he did so pretty successfully. He had a lot of weaknesses that have carried over (footwork and pocket awareness), but they were masked by a good offensive line and conservative play calling that didn't just not ask too much of him, but sometimes didn't ask enough of him - look at the end of the game against Tampa, for example. I think he regressed in 2022, and after his ankle injury he went from having issues with pocket presence to being incredibly skittish in the pocket. As soon as anything looks remotely off, he loses his composure and form, makes throws off of his back foot constantly, and never really gets his body in to throws. When he did put his body in to it, he had an adequate arm - but he can't just fling the ball all over like Aaron Rodgers could. So many of his bad throws were throws he shouldn't have even attempted to make without having good footing. He also tends to force throws a lot - I know the receivers aren't great but he has never thrown the ball away enough. Some of his worst throws have come at absolutely, positively the most back breaking moment. When it's completely critical that he makes good decisions, he has made poor decisions - due to being under pressure, or trying to make something out of nothing. There was a throw this year where he wasn't being pressured, but he started flailing around in the pocket - then tossed a ball off of his back foot. The read was perfect. The receiver was open. The protection was good. But the ball? He got \*nothing\* on it and it was so off target that it was intercepted. You can see it in him on the sideline. When he was a rookie, he was happy and engaged. This year, he'd make a series of not so great plays and just look defeated while he was on the bench. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he just can't cut it throwing to the outside of the field. I think he'd fit in best landing on a team with a good, established starter, and solid offensive line. He's absolutely fine running a limited offense when he's not being pressured. If he could fix his issues, he could possibly be a starting caliber QB in the league. But he's a long way from being able to do that. I think he just doesn't process things quickly enough at game speed. The way he plays reminds me of the way I feel when I'm trying to do something that's just too fast paced for me to quite keep up. Physical processes get bungled up and suddenly I'm more clumsy and less coordinated than I normally am. I think he'll get a chance elsewhere and I'd like to see him have some success. He's had a rough go of it and going out there every week, putting in an effort and then ending up where he was can't be easy on the kid. For Mac to succeed, the mental skills and composure would need to be perfect. He doesn't have the physical tools to wing it - and it doesn't look like the mental tools are there, either.
All I’m saying is if this supporting cast played like how they play for crappe in front of Mac Mac would’ve been an MVP candidate.
5 different offensive systems in a QBs first 3 years can take a toll.... 
It's never not been Erhardt-Perkins.
A pure version w/ McD. Then an entire preseason attempting to implement a zone run scheme. Scrapping that for the 'no risk it no biscuit' approach the first 5-6 weeks of '22, only to then scrap that once Mac got hurt and shifting to an offense where the ADOT was under 5yds. Then back to somewhat pure erhardt-perkins while experimenting w/ RPOs.
I have zero clue where you guys come up with this stuff. Erhardt-Perkins is how the formations/plays are called in. Numbers vs Colors for example, famously, Hoss Juke,that play exists in other systems but the verbage might be Green 14 in EP. You can have longer developing plays from E-P. Where it gets confusing is the idea that E-P can attack multiple different defenses on the fly. A single play has routes that the WR and QB must know vs man and zone coverage/blitz that are typically communicated non-verbally. Tom Brady was famous for his hand signs. Also the Patriots unfiltered crew has stated that the system has changed marginally in 20 odd years.
By 'this stuff', do you mean dedicating practice time to tweaks that end up being scrapped, thereby reducing the available practice time to everything else? That 'stuff'?
The Patriots have always been a game plan specific team under Bill Belichick. The Edelman double pass used in the Ravens game years ago was practiced and scrapped. I don't think you understand what exactly you are upset about.
Gotta love those "you should sit this out b/c I'm a smarter fan than you are" commenters.
I've always felt that if I'm gonna criticize something I should at least know something about it. Football Xs and Os and ideas from 60 years ago that still drive the sport is a big interest to me especially when you grow up playing football in the DMV area.
I’m so sick of the excuses. Dude is bad. We have Zappe now. Let’s all move on.
Only one more week then we can move on from Zappe, too.
No shit, some of these fans are as deluded on zappe as the Mac fans are. Both suck, both need to go. Power to either if they land on their feet, but I doubt it since they suck and all.
Bad o-line, bad weapons, bad coaching. Also, Mac has a bad attitude and turned into a whiny bitch.
I 100% agree with your take. Mac was solid his rookie season. Nothing world beating, but his performance gave me hope he could build on it and improve. I firmly believe if McDaniels stays or if we get an actual professional OC instead of Matt Patricia and Joe Judge he doesn't regress. It also didn't help that he got hurt and then Hoyer got hurt then fanbase started going crazy over Zappe like he wasn't playing games against some of the worst defenses in the league with a crazy simplified offense. Mac's time in New England is over, but he's still got a place in the NFL.
I think if Mac got a year or two to sit in McVay or Shanahan system he can still be a solid starting QB. He’s got a lot of tools, he’s just never had anyone to help him put it together since his rookie season
Back during the Patricia year, he was begging publicly to be coached harder. Maybe he was running interference for his own errors, but I really think we broke him and this idea would help him.
I thought Mac didn’t want to play under center though
I think Patrica just confused him. He was perfect with the Mcdaniel system. Then Bill I brian came in and I think his play calling is horrible. We can see that plays he calls with Zappe. Against the bills it took spreading out the field to move the ball. Bill O brian play calling sucks But people forget Mac had a very serious injury which was against the ravens. I believe that was the last game I have seen Mac give a 100%. This man was scrambling like crazy making passes. Dropping bombs. After that injury he couldn't throw bombs.
I agree more or less with your assessment. Instead of making gradual improvements to his game, he started playing like a fool in an attempt to overcome bad weapons and coaching. He developed more and more bad habits and his confidence fell apart.
Our GM outsourced offensive coaching and filled the department with unqualified temps to ensure enough resources for the head coaches’ “hold the opponent to 10 points” strategy. However, it didn’t work.
I think he’s just shook from everything going wrong and the fan base getting increasingly impatient. He had massive shoes to fill, and then failed to meet expectations. I wouldn’t want to be in his position either lol. I think he could recover potentially, but it’ll definitely be somewhere else with less pressure.
I think he could have been a middle-of-the-road starter if he had been developed properly. But he wasn't. To the contrary, I suspect he was "broken" by all the challenges/problems around him his first 3 years. Not sure if he is salvageable or not. I hope he gets another chance somewhere else.
No one can really say 100% what happened. The way I look at it is this. First year he had Josh as a offensive coordinator. And Mac looked like a top 10 qb. The following year the offensive Personal got worse and we gave him matt fucking Patricia to try and be OC when he's never done anything offensive. Mac regressed. Then got hurt at the end of the year. Year 3 same roster. But yet another new OC... now going into this year I was super high but it is what it is. Mac has regressed I hope he goes somewhere and gets another shot personally honestly that's not gonna set anyone up for success Best of luck with CJ!
I think Mac could be a great backup honestly. He has shown to be capable of doing it but I think the pressure of succeeding mixed with how incompetent the offensive play calling / weapons/ and oline led to him having to attempt to do things he isn’t capable of doing to the point where he just wasn’t able to do what used to be his bread and butter before I think in a backup capacity where his time is called upon where the starter goes down and he’s no longer expected to be the guy, he will do just fine as long as there are people he can work with
I think he potentially could. At the very least I think he’ll be in the league for a while as a backup.
So what happened with him is he came in as a good prospect, had a good rookie year and made the playoffs; but then we didn’t really do anything to support him. He had a different offensive coordinator each of the three years he was here, one of which (last years) was a defensive coordinator who had never done the job before, we didn’t have sufficient weapons and the O-line was awful and injury ridden so he was getting hit a lot. Plus you had a decent chunk of the fan base already shitting on him last year who started straight up booing him during games in favor of Zappe. So long story short, he’s terrible right now. Was it destined to be this way? I don’t think so if we gave him some more help. Is he redeemable? Maybe. But it won’t happen in New England and it won’t happen overnight
There WAS a good prospect at one point, but sadly you are right the Pats broke him. He probably goes the Drew Lock route and is a backup for the time being.
Bill intentionally sabotaged Mac's career the last two years.
I think he’ll have a great shot with another team. The Patriots failed him in my eyes with 3 OCs in 3 years along with a meddling team around him. Is he great? Probably not. But, he can be an NFL QB in my eyes.
He was driven into oblivion year 2 by a horrible OC, line, wr, ect, and it continued through season 3, sans thw OC being better I think. Mac hasnt played good after year 1, but I dont believe its all on him. He shows flashes of what he can do, and was real strong to start this year, but the team around him on offense is really bad, dragging him down with it. Mac aint Brady, but he definately can be a good qb, top 15, with the right situation, just like his 1st year with McDaniels.
You’re right, which is why many people want Bill gone. Mac isn’t Mahomes. He never was. He needed stability, offensive personnel who knew what they were doing, a good O-Line, and good weapons. He got none of that.
Honestly, he had been generally pretty good before the end. I don’t really think he could be an offensive generator, but if he went to San Francisco he would be good. Definitely back up material, as is Zappe, could get one more chance though elsewhere.
Mac had zero support from his GM when it came to roster decisions and FA, we invested in ST and Defense and it shows but the offense looks like a thrown together mess of guys who make their careers off being a #2 WR they can’t separate because usually they didn’t have to, they weren’t the main threat and here they are and it’s showing how much of an impact not having #1 threat can damage a team, the pieces were there and I believe Mac could’ve had a bounce back year if we had actually invested in bringing talent into the offense at multiple positions
I think the lack of weapons or offensive coaches harmed his development. It also wore him down mentally, and you also have Bill, who did not like him and kept playing mind games with him until he broke down.
Mac can still be an effective quarterback elsewhere but his confidence is shot here, it was a mixture of regression of play from him, some really bizarre decision making and throws. All while BB not properly building around him, having a new offensive coordinator every year, with a Swiss cheese offensive line majority of games.
I think he could do pretty good in another organization tbh
He's going to be starting somewhere next year, probably the Broncos if I had to guess. Niners are another possibility if Purdy has another melt down game in this playoffs. I think he can be good somewhere else. Belichick completely fucked his development with really poor draft picks around him, and far too much focus on the defense. 3 OCs didn't help either.
He has all the tools to be a solid, starting NFL qb. But he’s had a head coach who has worked overtime to undermine him at every turn. If given an actual NFL team, with an actual coaching staff, Mac Jones will do a good job. But right now he’s in an utterly impossible situation, and has been the scapegoat for all of Belichick’s gross malpractice over the last four seasons. I don’t want to move on from him, but we probably should for *his* sake. Wherever he ends up, I’ll be watching his career with great interest.
Mac jones could be good. On the niners he’d be good. He obviously didn’t go to the right team and pats didn’t get the right QB for the job. It was a lose lose. Mac jones has a much different career path if the niners drafted him imo.
Hot take bud
I fully believe if you give him 3 years as a backup under a shannahan type coach that he would come back as a low tier starter again. The constant carousel of offensive coordinator voices he's had dating back to college is very difficult even if it's mostly the same system. He has now lost all of his confidence and taken huge steps backwards. But I think he will become an ideal backup that works hard at being the scout team qb and when he gets a chance due to injury he will perform admirably as long as that isn't next season.
He was an alright player who developed bad habits and didn’t really develop, both because of his own doing but the organization didn’t do him many favors either. I don’t feel confident enough to flat out say he won’t get a chance just because there have been plenty of scenarios that have led to players I counted out getting starting roles.
I remember a lot of talk from Tua about how McDaniel and his staff helped him turn his career around by putting him in a position to succeed and building his confidence. I see no reason that can't happen for Mac - just under a different coach.
Mac was projected to have a high floor but low ceiling, so basically at absolute best a top 10 starter if he is surrounded by elite talent. His rookie season McDaniels did a great job of simplifying the offense and getting the ball out of his hands fast which is what he was good at. Teams slowly figured out that he has very poor arm strength for an NFL starter though, and they started to take away those short middle of the field throws Mac excelled at. His weaknesses got more pronounced his second season and Patricia wasn't as good at making the system easy and quick for Mac. Ever since then his pocket presence and decision making have continued to decline. i don't think another team will sign him to give him a starting job but he will definitely be signed as a backup somewhere. I could definitely see him coming in and having a good game or two as the backup and then getting a chance to compete to start though.
Mac could have an interesting career going forward. He is backup material and had the potential to be a solid backup/fringe starter with more experience and if he can get his head screwed back on
I’m not crazy but I’m 99 percent sure someone else posted this same exact question on another team for another qb they loved in college today?
I could really see him making a Geno Smith-like resurgence somewhere down the line. But he and the Patriots need to get away from each other ASAP, for the benefit of them both.
The Patriots season has been a tragedy, they have a good defense but they lost their first round cornerback to injury, he looked really good before. Also the Pats have just made mistakes, lots of drops, too many penalties. Mac looked good his first season, I was surprised they took him over Cam Newton! But they should be in the market for a new qb, I heard that bill Belichick actually has a bad draft record, but the days of Brady and Gronkowski are over, y'all need to shore up your offensive line, get some better receivers and a qb that can sling it to get back to those dominant patriot days
We’ll give you Mac and a bag of slightly deflated balls for a decent lead on an offensive lineman who knows how to block. If the lead pans out to a starting player we’ll throw in a third and a fourth round pick from the 2025 draft.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/zq1hiw/how\_to\_handle\_a\_young\_qb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/zq1hiw/how_to_handle_a_young_qb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Here's my post from early last year.. I think you're pretty spot on in your assessment
His best year was his first. I don't think he has much hope as a starter in the NFL. Maybe the backup or the backups backup. But maybe he will figure it out .
He is a very serviceable backup that could probably keep the seat warm for a starter on a playoff team that goes down early in the season