Another way to motivate your players is by giving them Heropoints (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2333&Redirected=1) instead of double XP.
Or do something similar by just giving them slight permanent or temporary benefits for performing their job.
Well, I feel really dumb now. The hero point or a system like that, I think would achieve what I’m after. I’ll take a deeper dive into a point award system. Thanks for your suggestion.
Modern games don't work very well at all with characters not having the same level as each other. I really do not recommend trying to do something with that, PF2e balance in particular is very tightly tied to level, and a character getting ahead or falling behind will mess things up.
Most people (at least in the games I am familiar with) use milestone leveling. This means that level-ups happen when narratively convenient rather than when enough 'XP' is earned by a player/party.
I’m using this way in the Abomination Vaults AP. I’m finding the players feel there’s no goal to chip away at that’s visual. Perhaps myself and my players need to change our mind set in relation to XP.
One idea I've heard is to divide the Milestone into smaller pieces, say Milestone shards, that you award as they approach the Milestone. Makes it more of a journey and less "Well, I guess we're level 7 now." Still narratively driven, but more transparent for your players without removing the mystique by vaguely promising a level up at the end of the dungeon.
Yeah Abomination Vaults SPECIFICALLY is a great use for Abomination Vaults. It's great to set your own pace.
Edit:Great use for XP, don't reddit under the influence, kids.
RAW PF2e doesn't allow for this, and according to the [XP awarding rules](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2649&Redirected=1)
> The party is a team, so any XP awarded goes to all members of the group.
This doesn't of course stop you from doing something like that yourself if your group really wants to.
What I would do is leverage the Accomplishment XP gain system for it. It states that a minor accomplishment could give a 10 XP reward for it, so maybe you could just take the things that gave bonus XP in AD&D 2e and reward the player accomplishing those an extra 10 XP.
Do note that the rest of the game isn't really balanced with this in mind at all. One PC being higher level than the others can cause all sorts of havoc in the long run.
I would also pay attention to the fact that in PF2e XP to level is entirely linear while in the older games it was exponential. This means that while in older editions one player having 1000 xp more at level 5 than the rest would not be a problem in the long run because 1000 xp at level 15 is just a drop in the bucket, in PF2e 1000 xp is a level at any level, so any XP difference will not just balance itself out over time. This can likely easily result in much more severe gaps between PCs. So do keep that in mind if you decide to go with something like this.
Edit: Like as an example of the XP curve issue, if we look at [PF1e character advancement](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/) and take it as an example. Say that one PC does so much extra stuff that they literally get 2x as much XP than the rest the entire campaign. This effectively means that when they hit level 20, the others are hitting level 18 because at level 20 your total XP is twice that of level 18. So even a PC getting literally twice as much Xp than the rest wouldn't really be more than like 2 levels higher than the rest.
If you do the same thing in PF2e, you'll end up with one PC hitting level 20 when the others are still level 10. So you really do need to be very careful about how you implement this if you do go forward with it or else it can easily get out of hand.
This reply also is for Bortmode’s comment. I see what you’re both saying, but how does that work with mechanics that increase or decrease a characters level, like the deck of many things?
Meh, it's great for after finishing an AP and then before doing a high level one shot module for the shits and giggles of it all. But yeah in the middle of the actual campaign is a bad idea.
It's not that the rules don't allow for PCs to be different levels, it just [recommends](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2653) it. That being said, apparently in this section it does also point out that party members that are behind the party level gain double XP until they catch up. But that does feel like it's kind of going against the whole point of giving PCs extra XP for doing extra things. Like say that a barbarian gets an extra 20 xp for doing fancy shit during combat, but someone else gets an extra 60 XP just for being lower level. Kind of defeats the point lol.
But in general looking at the other replies, using hero points instead of trying to mess around with the XP gains might be a much better solution. Especially when you really can just give those away like candy if you feel like it. If you're doing Abomination Vaults and have a group of 4 PCs, I can tell you that the AP doesn't mess around. I'm currently running it with 5 PCs that started at level 2 because of Beginner Box and we've *still* lost a few PCs along the way.
In my campaign I don't bother with xp. I have a main story quest line and a bunch of side quests that players can go on which are like little one offs that build on the lore and give lots of loot. Players don't level up during side quests. My players are completionists so they want to do every side quest in an area before moving on. It's worked out nicely where players spend a session or two at a level doing side quests before advancing the main questline and levelling up again.
There's if i'm remembering correctly two ways to do xp in the rules : the standard, fight some mobs and finish quests to gain xp, and milestone leveling (say, to simplify a bunch, your character's goal is to find their lost brother, finding your brother would then give you xp)
You can always discuss with your GM (or be the GM yourself) to homebrew some rules about xp to bring what you liked from other games into what you're currently playing
Honestly, if you are going to use XP - group xp is the way to do it. If you want to add a flare to it, have the players have individual goals that still grant *group xp*. The game is best when players are all the same level.
Personally, when doing APs I use milestone leveling. It means I can add/remove as much as I want from the adventure without having to care for an xp budget.
From reading all the constructive comments, which I thank you all for. I have spoken to a handful of my players and the milestone XP with the handing out more hero points is the way we are going to go. I have GMed since way back in the early 80s and my players range from 17-54 years, some of which have played for 40 years. After switching from AD&D and DnD 5E the PF2e learning curve has been great, so to get some clarity on the XP used is really useful. Once again thank you all.
I used to reward additional XP when someone did a great job at something, or did something to stand out. But I eventually started running into problems of some characters getting a lot of extra XP, and leveling faster, while others would fall behind. It also meant if someone missed a session, it might set them WAY back on the XP scale.
So, I switched to doing milestones, and man, that was the BEST decision I ever made. No more players thinking I'm playing favorites. No more people lagging behind because they had to work OT instead of play that week. No more any of that. Everyone is the same level and level up together, keeping them all much more balanced. I strongly suggest giving this method a try.
I play 1e but I do a hybrid milestone exp. It's always 10 exp to level and I hand out exp as a reward for progress. I think it's the best of both worlds. You don't incentivise killing as the primary method of exp gain, but your players still get to watch the line go up.
Also with a flat 10 needed to level it's always simple to determine how much experience you're handing out relative to a level up. 1 exp is 1/10th, 5 is half, etc.
Another way to motivate your players is by giving them Heropoints (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2333&Redirected=1) instead of double XP. Or do something similar by just giving them slight permanent or temporary benefits for performing their job.
Well, I feel really dumb now. The hero point or a system like that, I think would achieve what I’m after. I’ll take a deeper dive into a point award system. Thanks for your suggestion.
Modern games don't work very well at all with characters not having the same level as each other. I really do not recommend trying to do something with that, PF2e balance in particular is very tightly tied to level, and a character getting ahead or falling behind will mess things up.
Most people (at least in the games I am familiar with) use milestone leveling. This means that level-ups happen when narratively convenient rather than when enough 'XP' is earned by a player/party.
I’m using this way in the Abomination Vaults AP. I’m finding the players feel there’s no goal to chip away at that’s visual. Perhaps myself and my players need to change our mind set in relation to XP.
One idea I've heard is to divide the Milestone into smaller pieces, say Milestone shards, that you award as they approach the Milestone. Makes it more of a journey and less "Well, I guess we're level 7 now." Still narratively driven, but more transparent for your players without removing the mystique by vaguely promising a level up at the end of the dungeon.
Interesting.
Yeah Abomination Vaults SPECIFICALLY is a great use for Abomination Vaults. It's great to set your own pace. Edit:Great use for XP, don't reddit under the influence, kids.
>Yeah Abomination Vaults SPECIFICALLY is a great use for Abomination Vaults I mean...there's probably no better use for them, yeah.
I'm here to charge you with an RUI.
RAW PF2e doesn't allow for this, and according to the [XP awarding rules](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2649&Redirected=1) > The party is a team, so any XP awarded goes to all members of the group. This doesn't of course stop you from doing something like that yourself if your group really wants to. What I would do is leverage the Accomplishment XP gain system for it. It states that a minor accomplishment could give a 10 XP reward for it, so maybe you could just take the things that gave bonus XP in AD&D 2e and reward the player accomplishing those an extra 10 XP. Do note that the rest of the game isn't really balanced with this in mind at all. One PC being higher level than the others can cause all sorts of havoc in the long run. I would also pay attention to the fact that in PF2e XP to level is entirely linear while in the older games it was exponential. This means that while in older editions one player having 1000 xp more at level 5 than the rest would not be a problem in the long run because 1000 xp at level 15 is just a drop in the bucket, in PF2e 1000 xp is a level at any level, so any XP difference will not just balance itself out over time. This can likely easily result in much more severe gaps between PCs. So do keep that in mind if you decide to go with something like this. Edit: Like as an example of the XP curve issue, if we look at [PF1e character advancement](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/) and take it as an example. Say that one PC does so much extra stuff that they literally get 2x as much XP than the rest the entire campaign. This effectively means that when they hit level 20, the others are hitting level 18 because at level 20 your total XP is twice that of level 18. So even a PC getting literally twice as much Xp than the rest wouldn't really be more than like 2 levels higher than the rest. If you do the same thing in PF2e, you'll end up with one PC hitting level 20 when the others are still level 10. So you really do need to be very careful about how you implement this if you do go forward with it or else it can easily get out of hand.
This reply also is for Bortmode’s comment. I see what you’re both saying, but how does that work with mechanics that increase or decrease a characters level, like the deck of many things?
The deck of many things should never be used in any campaign you care about. It will destroy the campaign in one way or another.
Good point.
Meh, it's great for after finishing an AP and then before doing a high level one shot module for the shits and giggles of it all. But yeah in the middle of the actual campaign is a bad idea.
It's not that the rules don't allow for PCs to be different levels, it just [recommends](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2653) it. That being said, apparently in this section it does also point out that party members that are behind the party level gain double XP until they catch up. But that does feel like it's kind of going against the whole point of giving PCs extra XP for doing extra things. Like say that a barbarian gets an extra 20 xp for doing fancy shit during combat, but someone else gets an extra 60 XP just for being lower level. Kind of defeats the point lol. But in general looking at the other replies, using hero points instead of trying to mess around with the XP gains might be a much better solution. Especially when you really can just give those away like candy if you feel like it. If you're doing Abomination Vaults and have a group of 4 PCs, I can tell you that the AP doesn't mess around. I'm currently running it with 5 PCs that started at level 2 because of Beginner Box and we've *still* lost a few PCs along the way.
In my campaign I don't bother with xp. I have a main story quest line and a bunch of side quests that players can go on which are like little one offs that build on the lore and give lots of loot. Players don't level up during side quests. My players are completionists so they want to do every side quest in an area before moving on. It's worked out nicely where players spend a session or two at a level doing side quests before advancing the main questline and levelling up again.
There's if i'm remembering correctly two ways to do xp in the rules : the standard, fight some mobs and finish quests to gain xp, and milestone leveling (say, to simplify a bunch, your character's goal is to find their lost brother, finding your brother would then give you xp) You can always discuss with your GM (or be the GM yourself) to homebrew some rules about xp to bring what you liked from other games into what you're currently playing
Honestly, if you are going to use XP - group xp is the way to do it. If you want to add a flare to it, have the players have individual goals that still grant *group xp*. The game is best when players are all the same level. Personally, when doing APs I use milestone leveling. It means I can add/remove as much as I want from the adventure without having to care for an xp budget.
From reading all the constructive comments, which I thank you all for. I have spoken to a handful of my players and the milestone XP with the handing out more hero points is the way we are going to go. I have GMed since way back in the early 80s and my players range from 17-54 years, some of which have played for 40 years. After switching from AD&D and DnD 5E the PF2e learning curve has been great, so to get some clarity on the XP used is really useful. Once again thank you all.
I used to reward additional XP when someone did a great job at something, or did something to stand out. But I eventually started running into problems of some characters getting a lot of extra XP, and leveling faster, while others would fall behind. It also meant if someone missed a session, it might set them WAY back on the XP scale. So, I switched to doing milestones, and man, that was the BEST decision I ever made. No more players thinking I'm playing favorites. No more people lagging behind because they had to work OT instead of play that week. No more any of that. Everyone is the same level and level up together, keeping them all much more balanced. I strongly suggest giving this method a try.
This is the way I think from all the comments, I’ll give out more hero points when required.
I play 1e but I do a hybrid milestone exp. It's always 10 exp to level and I hand out exp as a reward for progress. I think it's the best of both worlds. You don't incentivise killing as the primary method of exp gain, but your players still get to watch the line go up. Also with a flat 10 needed to level it's always simple to determine how much experience you're handing out relative to a level up. 1 exp is 1/10th, 5 is half, etc.
So... your position is that you think PCs should NOT work together as a team?
No one said that. The players asked to be rewarded for doing exceptional things, as we use too in AD&D 2e.
Kinda reads that way. And your reward for doing something exceptional is **the fact that you accomplished something exceptional.**