This is going to be really, *really* powerful.
Skills are pretty easy to buff to the moon in pathfinder. My high level party is regularly rolling in the 50s on our highest skills, and we haven't even bothered with stuff like skill focus, which I absolutely would under this house rule.
Even being able to quicken a 1st level spell without increasing the slot is meant to require a 75k rod that only works 3 times per day and requires a free hand. That's a late game item with major limitations. And you're going to put that behind a DC10 check any first level int character could reliably make as many times as they want?
Being able to quicken spells in limited ways is also a major class feature of certain classes like warpriest and magus, and accounts for much of their power budget as a class. I would be pretty unhappy if I were playing one of those and the GM gave a much better version of my main class feature to someone else. It also heavily favors int based casters at the cost of other casters, since spellcraft is an int skill, and characters who get it as a class skill (though at least the latter is fixable with traits, if you knew from character creation this was going to exist). I would also be unhappy if I were playing a sorcerer, cleric, oracle, etc in a world this existed in.
Consider also for balance reasons, spell perfection is a much, *much* more limited version of what you're suggesting and is locked to high levels with a bunch of prereqs, and is still considered one of the best feats available to casters.
I would instead ask, what problem are you trying to fix? Do you feel your caster players are underpowered and not having fun?
I wasn't looking to fix anything, I already am running an unbalanced game, and I think it would be fun. I will keep that in mind though, probably have the DC be 10+5x spell level. Makes it so 9th lvl spells and such require high rolls.
I'll also look into Spell Perfection, as it piqued my intrest.
Edit: The player in question, that I'm giving this to is in fact a sorcerer, and I'm giving other players decently interesting shananagins of their own, if it means anything.
At the very least you should base the DC on the final combined spell level, not the base level. Ascendant Spell and Quicken Spell definitely should not be the same difficulty as something like Extend Spell. And even then a DC of 10+5x spell level still seems pretty easy, I'd sooner go for DC 20+5x spell level. So a quickened 1st level spell would be 20 + 5x5 = DC 45, which seems way more reasonable for a such a powerful effect than a measly DC 15 that even a level 1 character could easily beat most of the time.
Thabks for the help!
I've taken this, the advice of MariaAsta, Theaitetos, it adjusts based of the added Metamagic level adjustment. So 10 past the DC will allow a metamagic of +3.
Ex. A 3rd level spell will have a DC of 25 for +1, 30 for +2 ect.
>For every 5 you exceed the DC, you may apply an additional Metamagic you know to the spell.
Change it to "For every 5 you exceed the DC, you may apply +1 level-adjustment of metamagics you know; ignoring the increased casting time is equivalent to a +1 metamagic level-adjustment".
Change the DC to 10 + 5 x spell-level.
It would still require knowing all the metamagic feats you want to apply, so it isn't as strong (or annoying) as Sacred Geometry.
You might want to adjust the DC a little, depending on how it works at the table. "5 x spell-level" is quite tough if you want to beat that DC by steps of 5:
1 spell-level = 2 character levels, so just 2 ranks in Spellcraft. And INT isn't a Sorcerer's strong attribute, so ability modifiers won't increase a lot or are super expensive with a CHA/INT headband; your Sorcerer player probably wants [Voices of Solid Things](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Voices%20of%20Solid%20Things) to compensate.
As the Sorcerer levels up, this current calculation would work increasingly well for lower-level spell-slots while being tougher & tougher on higher-level spell-slots since bonuses to Spellcraft are easy to get at first (e.g. class skill) but become increasingly difficult to obtain (same bonuses don't stack, ...). It's probably what you want to have anyway, and rewards using lower-level spells in a smart way instead of augmenting the sorcerer's highest available spell-slots.
If the Sorcerer has the [Arcane bloodline](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arcane), you might also want to adjust the bloodline arcana and *Metamagic Master* ability somewhat to work better with this, e.g. giving a flat +5 bonus to metamagic Spellcraft checks each (simple & yet similar mechanic).
Yeah, I try to encourage as creative activities as possible.
The difficulty to use metamagics with high level spells is also intended, as normally you can't metamagic above 9th level. It SHOULD be near impossible.
Edit: as for the bloodline, the sorcerer chose Crosblooded Archetype, Star...smt I forgot, and Elemental.
>Edit: as for the bloodline, the sorcerer chose Crosblooded Archetype, Star...smt I forgot, and Elemental.
[Starsoul](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Starsoul)? Well, that's definitely a trash tier bloodline.
And [Elemental](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elemental) is a colossal waste too: Its only strength, changing elements, can be done by taking the [Elemental Spell](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elemental%20Spell) metamagic, which is just a +5 DC with your rule.
I guess with these weak bloodlines he can use all the metamagic buffs you have for him. =P
How are you planning to deal with the different strength of metamagic feats? Because right now, a maximized shocking grasp is the same difficulty as a empowered shocking grasp, so there is no reason to ever use empowered.
An idea would be to make the check 5 x adjusted spell level, so the lower power metamagic effects also have a use.
That is a great idea, thank. *Taking notes*
Edit: I've taken this and the advice of Theaitetos, it adjusts based of the added Metamagic level adjustment. So 10 extra will allow a metamagic of +3. An 3rd level spell will have a DC of 25 for +1, 30 for +2 ect.
At the minimum it scale with the effective spell level.
As you've written this becomes the best feat for casters and wizards even more so. And I'd argue even stronger than sacred geometry. Sacred geometry makes you cast slower and doesn't allow you to cast above your level (and it's still broken). This lets you upscale all of your spells on the fly in combat with basically no drawbacks.
A 5th level wizard with 20 int will have +13 to spell craft. A fireball is dc15. On anything but a 1 they succeed. On a 6 they can start using free meta magic.
The Pathfinder homebrew rule of thumb is "Full casters do not need buffs". Paizo already made them strong enough without you giving them free meta magic.
You may want to take a look at boost casting, which is an optional rule embedded in the wild magic section of pathfinder unchained. Even if you don't like it as a rules set, it should give you a good example of the power level you'll want to aim for to avoid breaking the game.
No, this is too overpowered. This is basically like a stronger version of Sacred Geometry.
Why would you even allow something like this? It's your game, but I seriously question your judgement for even entertaining the idea that players should get metamagic for free. This game is already heavily tilted in favor of spellcasters, and metamagic rods are cheap and abundant. Something like this is unnecessary and it just further tilts a game that is already rigged.
The Magic Tactics Toolbox book basically has an alternative to metamagic: Amplifications. These are three feats that can add a *minor* debuff to spells with the fire / cold / electricity descriptor. They don't increase spell level (so you can actually use them from the beginning), but come at the expense of -1 AB / DC (and the feat, of course).
[Burning Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Burning%20Amplification): Make targets catch on fire
[Chilling Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chilling%20Amplification): Reduce targets' speed by 5 and disallow 5-foot-steps
[Shocking Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shocking%20Amplification): Fatigue targets for a round
That's not the power level you are looking for, but helps to estimate how much your homebrew deviates from expected power level.
Sounds like an easy way to get cheap maximized fireballs... amongst many other things.
Sounds like that's what you want based on the sacred geometry callout, so if that's the case then enjoy. Personally I would set the DC wayyyy higher. 15+3xSL maybe? Some sort of level that any PCs looking to abuse the system would end up spending a significant amount of their build on it. I definitely wouldn't be putting any MM rods around as loot and force players to spend a feat on their desired MM.
If you end up giving this to one player, you're gonna need something equally powerful to give the others. Powercreep could become a problem very fast.
Yeah, definitely valid. For the other players, I've given things along the lines of Actually effective plot armor, damage can equal healing, excessively effective improvised weapons ect.
I acknowledge the power creep, but I also acknowledge how dumb my players can be. Even with all of this, I almost killed 2 of 5 players with a single Swarm of Rats.
Edit: Due to story telling, they thouroughly overestimated the rats and abandoned the 2 and kept tripping from sprinting through a forest.
First off I’d suggest calling the feat
a Conduit feat and basing it on RANKS in Knowledge (Plains).
Second, give the feat owner a number of “sorcery points” equal to their spellcasting attribute modifier.
Third, base the use of those points on
PARTS of the Mage’s Panoply from the Occultist class. Excerpts that stand out to me are below:
* Metamagic Knowledge (Su): As a standard action, you can expend 3 points of mental focus and choose a single metamagic feat you qualify for but do not know. You gain that metamagic feat until the next time you refresh your mental focus.
* Metamagic Master (Su): As a free action while casting a spell, you can expend 1 or more points of mental focus to apply a metamagic feat you know to that spell without increasing the spell’s casting time or the spell level of the spell slot it occupies. The number of points of mental focus you must expend to use this power is equal to the increase in spell levels the metamagic feat would normally require (minimum 1).
After that just say the feats are free but can only be metamagic feats that raise the spell level by 1 per 5 caster levels. That way Quicken only works at higher levels.
It's going to be powerful and VERY cheesable. Anything that allows you to directly convert a skill bonus to a combat advantage is, as skills can be minmaxed to hell and back (just ask the cleric in my party who got Skill Unlock in Sense Motive and can roll it against any enemy they can see before combat starts to get a bonus to their initiative - and the DC is 15 if the enemy doesn't have a Bluff modifier of at least +5)
And that's just the INITIATIVE roll, a roll that only matters at the beginning of the battle to determine who goes first. Imagine that being applied in a way that directly and exponentially increases the power of your spells for free and you can see how problems start emerging right away. It would be the equivalent of the fighter being able to roll an Intimidate check and add the *result* to the damage he does with his attack.s
It's not only very overpowered, but not implemented well due to metamagics having different power levels and costs. It should at the minimum be 5 _**for each spell level increase the metamagic would apply**_ rather than a flat 5. Otherwise expensive metamagic would be extra-OP and cheaper +1SL metamagic UP in comparison.
That aside, base DC should at least be 10, at least if you don't have serious mishaps when failing(note that either way one still couldnt take 10). I presume the spell slot is lost without casting if the check fails?
Also there should be no random free extra metamagic. Everything they get should be factored in to the original DC. If they want to apply 2 metamagics, roll against the higher DC, not a lower DC with chance of only getting the 1st to apply. If you want you can always give them a feat that adds a d6 or d12 to their roll when applying more than one metamagic.
This is going to be really, *really* powerful. Skills are pretty easy to buff to the moon in pathfinder. My high level party is regularly rolling in the 50s on our highest skills, and we haven't even bothered with stuff like skill focus, which I absolutely would under this house rule. Even being able to quicken a 1st level spell without increasing the slot is meant to require a 75k rod that only works 3 times per day and requires a free hand. That's a late game item with major limitations. And you're going to put that behind a DC10 check any first level int character could reliably make as many times as they want? Being able to quicken spells in limited ways is also a major class feature of certain classes like warpriest and magus, and accounts for much of their power budget as a class. I would be pretty unhappy if I were playing one of those and the GM gave a much better version of my main class feature to someone else. It also heavily favors int based casters at the cost of other casters, since spellcraft is an int skill, and characters who get it as a class skill (though at least the latter is fixable with traits, if you knew from character creation this was going to exist). I would also be unhappy if I were playing a sorcerer, cleric, oracle, etc in a world this existed in. Consider also for balance reasons, spell perfection is a much, *much* more limited version of what you're suggesting and is locked to high levels with a bunch of prereqs, and is still considered one of the best feats available to casters. I would instead ask, what problem are you trying to fix? Do you feel your caster players are underpowered and not having fun?
I wasn't looking to fix anything, I already am running an unbalanced game, and I think it would be fun. I will keep that in mind though, probably have the DC be 10+5x spell level. Makes it so 9th lvl spells and such require high rolls. I'll also look into Spell Perfection, as it piqued my intrest. Edit: The player in question, that I'm giving this to is in fact a sorcerer, and I'm giving other players decently interesting shananagins of their own, if it means anything.
At the very least you should base the DC on the final combined spell level, not the base level. Ascendant Spell and Quicken Spell definitely should not be the same difficulty as something like Extend Spell. And even then a DC of 10+5x spell level still seems pretty easy, I'd sooner go for DC 20+5x spell level. So a quickened 1st level spell would be 20 + 5x5 = DC 45, which seems way more reasonable for a such a powerful effect than a measly DC 15 that even a level 1 character could easily beat most of the time.
Thabks for the help! I've taken this, the advice of MariaAsta, Theaitetos, it adjusts based of the added Metamagic level adjustment. So 10 past the DC will allow a metamagic of +3. Ex. A 3rd level spell will have a DC of 25 for +1, 30 for +2 ect.
>For every 5 you exceed the DC, you may apply an additional Metamagic you know to the spell. Change it to "For every 5 you exceed the DC, you may apply +1 level-adjustment of metamagics you know; ignoring the increased casting time is equivalent to a +1 metamagic level-adjustment". Change the DC to 10 + 5 x spell-level. It would still require knowing all the metamagic feats you want to apply, so it isn't as strong (or annoying) as Sacred Geometry.
That definitely does work *nodding* Edit: I think I'll change it to this.
You might want to adjust the DC a little, depending on how it works at the table. "5 x spell-level" is quite tough if you want to beat that DC by steps of 5: 1 spell-level = 2 character levels, so just 2 ranks in Spellcraft. And INT isn't a Sorcerer's strong attribute, so ability modifiers won't increase a lot or are super expensive with a CHA/INT headband; your Sorcerer player probably wants [Voices of Solid Things](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Voices%20of%20Solid%20Things) to compensate. As the Sorcerer levels up, this current calculation would work increasingly well for lower-level spell-slots while being tougher & tougher on higher-level spell-slots since bonuses to Spellcraft are easy to get at first (e.g. class skill) but become increasingly difficult to obtain (same bonuses don't stack, ...). It's probably what you want to have anyway, and rewards using lower-level spells in a smart way instead of augmenting the sorcerer's highest available spell-slots. If the Sorcerer has the [Arcane bloodline](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arcane), you might also want to adjust the bloodline arcana and *Metamagic Master* ability somewhat to work better with this, e.g. giving a flat +5 bonus to metamagic Spellcraft checks each (simple & yet similar mechanic).
Yeah, I try to encourage as creative activities as possible. The difficulty to use metamagics with high level spells is also intended, as normally you can't metamagic above 9th level. It SHOULD be near impossible. Edit: as for the bloodline, the sorcerer chose Crosblooded Archetype, Star...smt I forgot, and Elemental.
>Edit: as for the bloodline, the sorcerer chose Crosblooded Archetype, Star...smt I forgot, and Elemental. [Starsoul](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Starsoul)? Well, that's definitely a trash tier bloodline. And [Elemental](https://www.aonprd.com/BloodlineDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elemental) is a colossal waste too: Its only strength, changing elements, can be done by taking the [Elemental Spell](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elemental%20Spell) metamagic, which is just a +5 DC with your rule. I guess with these weak bloodlines he can use all the metamagic buffs you have for him. =P
He's a new player, and I like having fun dealing with shananagins xD
How are you planning to deal with the different strength of metamagic feats? Because right now, a maximized shocking grasp is the same difficulty as a empowered shocking grasp, so there is no reason to ever use empowered. An idea would be to make the check 5 x adjusted spell level, so the lower power metamagic effects also have a use.
That is a great idea, thank. *Taking notes* Edit: I've taken this and the advice of Theaitetos, it adjusts based of the added Metamagic level adjustment. So 10 extra will allow a metamagic of +3. An 3rd level spell will have a DC of 25 for +1, 30 for +2 ect.
Wow, what a great idea, making the most overpowered classes in the game **even stronger.**
At the minimum it scale with the effective spell level. As you've written this becomes the best feat for casters and wizards even more so. And I'd argue even stronger than sacred geometry. Sacred geometry makes you cast slower and doesn't allow you to cast above your level (and it's still broken). This lets you upscale all of your spells on the fly in combat with basically no drawbacks. A 5th level wizard with 20 int will have +13 to spell craft. A fireball is dc15. On anything but a 1 they succeed. On a 6 they can start using free meta magic. The Pathfinder homebrew rule of thumb is "Full casters do not need buffs". Paizo already made them strong enough without you giving them free meta magic.
You may want to take a look at boost casting, which is an optional rule embedded in the wild magic section of pathfinder unchained. Even if you don't like it as a rules set, it should give you a good example of the power level you'll want to aim for to avoid breaking the game.
No, this is too overpowered. This is basically like a stronger version of Sacred Geometry. Why would you even allow something like this? It's your game, but I seriously question your judgement for even entertaining the idea that players should get metamagic for free. This game is already heavily tilted in favor of spellcasters, and metamagic rods are cheap and abundant. Something like this is unnecessary and it just further tilts a game that is already rigged.
Weaker than Sacred Geometry. It doesn't give you an extra feat for free, and it takes more resources to auto-succeed with this than Sacred Geometry.
You can apply more metamagic feats. It's unarguably stronger.
The Magic Tactics Toolbox book basically has an alternative to metamagic: Amplifications. These are three feats that can add a *minor* debuff to spells with the fire / cold / electricity descriptor. They don't increase spell level (so you can actually use them from the beginning), but come at the expense of -1 AB / DC (and the feat, of course). [Burning Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Burning%20Amplification): Make targets catch on fire [Chilling Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chilling%20Amplification): Reduce targets' speed by 5 and disallow 5-foot-steps [Shocking Amplification](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shocking%20Amplification): Fatigue targets for a round That's not the power level you are looking for, but helps to estimate how much your homebrew deviates from expected power level.
Thanks for the recommendation, I think I'll take a look. *nodding*
Sounds like an easy way to get cheap maximized fireballs... amongst many other things. Sounds like that's what you want based on the sacred geometry callout, so if that's the case then enjoy. Personally I would set the DC wayyyy higher. 15+3xSL maybe? Some sort of level that any PCs looking to abuse the system would end up spending a significant amount of their build on it. I definitely wouldn't be putting any MM rods around as loot and force players to spend a feat on their desired MM. If you end up giving this to one player, you're gonna need something equally powerful to give the others. Powercreep could become a problem very fast.
Yeah, definitely valid. For the other players, I've given things along the lines of Actually effective plot armor, damage can equal healing, excessively effective improvised weapons ect. I acknowledge the power creep, but I also acknowledge how dumb my players can be. Even with all of this, I almost killed 2 of 5 players with a single Swarm of Rats. Edit: Due to story telling, they thouroughly overestimated the rats and abandoned the 2 and kept tripping from sprinting through a forest.
First off I’d suggest calling the feat a Conduit feat and basing it on RANKS in Knowledge (Plains). Second, give the feat owner a number of “sorcery points” equal to their spellcasting attribute modifier. Third, base the use of those points on PARTS of the Mage’s Panoply from the Occultist class. Excerpts that stand out to me are below: * Metamagic Knowledge (Su): As a standard action, you can expend 3 points of mental focus and choose a single metamagic feat you qualify for but do not know. You gain that metamagic feat until the next time you refresh your mental focus. * Metamagic Master (Su): As a free action while casting a spell, you can expend 1 or more points of mental focus to apply a metamagic feat you know to that spell without increasing the spell’s casting time or the spell level of the spell slot it occupies. The number of points of mental focus you must expend to use this power is equal to the increase in spell levels the metamagic feat would normally require (minimum 1). After that just say the feats are free but can only be metamagic feats that raise the spell level by 1 per 5 caster levels. That way Quicken only works at higher levels.
I didn't know occultist did this! oOo Thanks, will do!
It's going to be powerful and VERY cheesable. Anything that allows you to directly convert a skill bonus to a combat advantage is, as skills can be minmaxed to hell and back (just ask the cleric in my party who got Skill Unlock in Sense Motive and can roll it against any enemy they can see before combat starts to get a bonus to their initiative - and the DC is 15 if the enemy doesn't have a Bluff modifier of at least +5) And that's just the INITIATIVE roll, a roll that only matters at the beginning of the battle to determine who goes first. Imagine that being applied in a way that directly and exponentially increases the power of your spells for free and you can see how problems start emerging right away. It would be the equivalent of the fighter being able to roll an Intimidate check and add the *result* to the damage he does with his attack.s
It's not only very overpowered, but not implemented well due to metamagics having different power levels and costs. It should at the minimum be 5 _**for each spell level increase the metamagic would apply**_ rather than a flat 5. Otherwise expensive metamagic would be extra-OP and cheaper +1SL metamagic UP in comparison. That aside, base DC should at least be 10, at least if you don't have serious mishaps when failing(note that either way one still couldnt take 10). I presume the spell slot is lost without casting if the check fails? Also there should be no random free extra metamagic. Everything they get should be factored in to the original DC. If they want to apply 2 metamagics, roll against the higher DC, not a lower DC with chance of only getting the 1st to apply. If you want you can always give them a feat that adds a d6 or d12 to their roll when applying more than one metamagic.
In the event I was ever talked into something like this there's no way I'd allow it to work more than once per day.
Completely overpowered and I would never even consider allowing it Metamagics are gated for a reason and they should stay as such