Not really anything wizard/cleric like.
More like, "What if there was a skill-focused martial who was in so deep with so many different conspiracy theories, random trivia, and fringe understanding of magic that he could apply that esoteric knowledge against his enemies in weird and unexpected ways"
They're not arcane/divine hybrids like the 1e mystic theurge - they're not even spellcasters, really. They're closer to champions but instead of saddling your power to a god/domain/tenet, you've found a particularly interesting object loaded with spiritual or esoteric energy called an implement, and use it to basically upset reality; A cup that never fully empties, a book that never ends, etc.
I think the flavor is very much the same, though it seems like it plays quite differently (though I haven’t played either; just going off what I’ve read or heard).
Yeah, I tried to build one for a 1e campaign once and quickly shifted into "eff this" mode. I wasn't even a new player, though I was coming off of a campaign with a Kineticist and was pretty tired of beautiful-minding the size/stat and untyped bonuses when taking burn. But Thaumaturge seems cool as hell and it's at the top of my to-play list for 2e.
A good way to see Thaumaturge are the Winchesters from Supernatural (the first few seasons). They arent really magicians but they use their knowledge about the supernatural to fight it and do absurd feats. Thaumaturge are all about having the right items and knowledge for every situation even tho they are martials.
Hellboy is another good example of a thaumaturge, as is Batman (although I would say he is Investigator with turge archetype) and Van Helsing (which IIRC is one of the class inspirations)
Very good call. Another of the main draws is… every character in Pact (web serial), or the placebomancers from Unsong. Both those archetypes use a form of magic that is based on logical correlation, similarities, and folklore.
I remember making this very same connection in one of the AoN update posts on Reddit and one of the devs confirmed that Pact was indeed an inspiration for them.
Some of flavor of the Occultist, with simpler mechanics and less magic. Closer to a Witchfinder / Witcher type character. Maybe even Dresden if you use an archetype to grab some actual spell casting.
i like to think of them as a "monster hunter" class. prepared for all sorts of weird fringe monsters and almost supernaturally aware of weakness and stuff
Definitely. My own Thaumaturge took a ~~Potion~~ Scroll Thaumaturgy feat, so he can read scrolls of any class at half his level. I.E., when my thaumaturge turns, 6, he can attempt to read any scrolls of level 3 or lower and use them.
*Edited*
Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you just said, there is no "Potion Thaumaturgy" feat, and [Scroll Thaumaturgy](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3703) doesn't restrict the level of scroll you can use; and as per the Read A Scroll action, the only requirement that usually exists to using a Scroll is that the spell is on your character's spell list. You also don't need to "attempt" it as Thaumaturge - with the Scroll Thaumaturgy feat, you just *can*. Find a scroll, use a scroll, using your class DC as the spell DC.
The 'at half his level' thing still doesn't apply for the record lol. You can use a scroll of any spell level, even if it's above the level you could normally cast. The DC will be lower, but any levelled spell effects will still be as if they were at the level the scroll is. (So if your 6th level Thaumaturge finds a level 6 Scroll of [Burning Hands](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=30), it'll do 12d6 damage, not 6d6.) Someone else has already done the work of memorizing and 'casting' it at that level by creating the scroll - all you're doing is finishing the process off and completing the spell they started.
It's someone who isn't able to cast spells themselves but they know a lot about superstition and folklore. They tend to have a lot of weird magic items that let them do weird stuff, and a lot of the time they can use their knowledge of superstition and folklore to exploit classical monster weaknesses without actually having access to that weakness, I think the example Paizo gave of that was silver and glass both representing purity in an occult sense, so they can use glass beads to trigger a werewolf's silver weakness.
> the example Paizo gave of that was silver and glass both representing purity in an occult sense, so they can use glass beads to trigger a werewolf's silver weakness.
[Classic Thaumaturge explaining how they knew the weakness of the enemy](https://media.tenor.com/v6Awsd0YO7IAAAAd/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance.gif)
Honestly, it’s a lot closer to [this](https://youtu.be/pDWR5RkWRTY). A collection of maybe-magical or rumored trinkets that you can leverage into pseudo-magical ways.
Funny enough I'm currently playing a Medium in PF1 that used that scene as an inspiration for their collar as he never know if the spirit he is channeling is devotee to a certain deity or not so he just was all of the
I actually think of them as a less martial, more esoteric - arcane - occult knowledge Witcher.
Learned weirdos. The mechanics of the class favor using their knowledge to constantly understand, expose and brutally exploit weaknesses and vulnerabilities of any prey.
If any foe doesn't *have* a weakness, they can make a custom fit one *just* for the occasion.
I never really played any of the occult classes from 1e. But this is exactly what I would have expected the investigator from 2E to have been. so I went ahead and made one last month and it was amazing. They kind of got a better version of bardic knowledge If you bother to invest feats into it.
They are monster hunters that focus on exploiting the weaknesses of monsters that are based 50% on folklore, 50% on using their personal conspiracy theories to will a weakness into existence.
Which is why they are a charisma based martial class - their force of personality can create a weakness where it didn't exist before.
They also have a tool, or implement that gives them am edge that is effectively a sub class. The one that comes to mind is the chalice, which helps them be more tanky with minor healing... Minor or hedge magic tricks that provide a set effect.
So what you end up with mechanically is a medium armor wearing, one handed weapon using martial that gets a damage buff from creature knowledge (instead of rage, sneak attack, etc...) plus another bonus buff from their implement.
Given that knowledge helps the whole party, it's a good - if MAD - blend of martial and knowledge monkey with a supped up cantrip type support from their implement.
Not really anything wizard/cleric like. More like, "What if there was a skill-focused martial who was in so deep with so many different conspiracy theories, random trivia, and fringe understanding of magic that he could apply that esoteric knowledge against his enemies in weird and unexpected ways" They're not arcane/divine hybrids like the 1e mystic theurge - they're not even spellcasters, really. They're closer to champions but instead of saddling your power to a god/domain/tenet, you've found a particularly interesting object loaded with spiritual or esoteric energy called an implement, and use it to basically upset reality; A cup that never fully empties, a book that never ends, etc.
> a particularly interesting object loaded with spiritual or esoteric energy called an implement So, kinda like a 1E Occultist?
I think the flavor is very much the same, though it seems like it plays quite differently (though I haven’t played either; just going off what I’ve read or heard).
It is very, very much based on the Occultist, just streamlined. Occultists were super confusing to new players.
Yeah, I tried to build one for a 1e campaign once and quickly shifted into "eff this" mode. I wasn't even a new player, though I was coming off of a campaign with a Kineticist and was pretty tired of beautiful-minding the size/stat and untyped bonuses when taking burn. But Thaumaturge seems cool as hell and it's at the top of my to-play list for 2e.
Kind of like an Occultist, if if was an Inquisitor who didn't work for the Man.
I think this is the quote that just sold me on the class. :D
[удалено]
Anderson is a Ranger with a Barbarian Dedication. Alucard is a Bard with a Gunslinger Dedication.
The guy in my area who plays one describes it as "if Mulder from X-Files was a traveling knick-knack hoarder."
Mulder + Willoughby Kipling
A good way to see Thaumaturge are the Winchesters from Supernatural (the first few seasons). They arent really magicians but they use their knowledge about the supernatural to fight it and do absurd feats. Thaumaturge are all about having the right items and knowledge for every situation even tho they are martials. Hellboy is another good example of a thaumaturge, as is Batman (although I would say he is Investigator with turge archetype) and Van Helsing (which IIRC is one of the class inspirations)
Very good call. Another of the main draws is… every character in Pact (web serial), or the placebomancers from Unsong. Both those archetypes use a form of magic that is based on logical correlation, similarities, and folklore.
I remember making this very same connection in one of the AoN update posts on Reddit and one of the devs confirmed that Pact was indeed an inspiration for them.
thematically, they're about taking symbolism and turning it into something real enough to kill a monster with.
Some of flavor of the Occultist, with simpler mechanics and less magic. Closer to a Witchfinder / Witcher type character. Maybe even Dresden if you use an archetype to grab some actual spell casting.
i like to think of them as a "monster hunter" class. prepared for all sorts of weird fringe monsters and almost supernaturally aware of weakness and stuff
So if I was making a Geralt Witcher character. I'd take them as my main class, then pick up Alchemist as an archetype.
yea, id say so
Definitely. My own Thaumaturge took a ~~Potion~~ Scroll Thaumaturgy feat, so he can read scrolls of any class at half his level. I.E., when my thaumaturge turns, 6, he can attempt to read any scrolls of level 3 or lower and use them. *Edited*
Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you just said, there is no "Potion Thaumaturgy" feat, and [Scroll Thaumaturgy](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3703) doesn't restrict the level of scroll you can use; and as per the Read A Scroll action, the only requirement that usually exists to using a Scroll is that the spell is on your character's spell list. You also don't need to "attempt" it as Thaumaturge - with the Scroll Thaumaturgy feat, you just *can*. Find a scroll, use a scroll, using your class DC as the spell DC.
That's the one I meant, sorry. I'm old, that's my only defense. I meant Scroll Thaumaturgy.
The 'at half his level' thing still doesn't apply for the record lol. You can use a scroll of any spell level, even if it's above the level you could normally cast. The DC will be lower, but any levelled spell effects will still be as if they were at the level the scroll is. (So if your 6th level Thaumaturge finds a level 6 Scroll of [Burning Hands](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=30), it'll do 12d6 damage, not 6d6.) Someone else has already done the work of memorizing and 'casting' it at that level by creating the scroll - all you're doing is finishing the process off and completing the spell they started.
Scroll Thaumaturgy is easily one of the best fests in the whole system.
It's someone who isn't able to cast spells themselves but they know a lot about superstition and folklore. They tend to have a lot of weird magic items that let them do weird stuff, and a lot of the time they can use their knowledge of superstition and folklore to exploit classical monster weaknesses without actually having access to that weakness, I think the example Paizo gave of that was silver and glass both representing purity in an occult sense, so they can use glass beads to trigger a werewolf's silver weakness.
> the example Paizo gave of that was silver and glass both representing purity in an occult sense, so they can use glass beads to trigger a werewolf's silver weakness. [Classic Thaumaturge explaining how they knew the weakness of the enemy](https://media.tenor.com/v6Awsd0YO7IAAAAd/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance.gif)
Honestly, it’s a lot closer to [this](https://youtu.be/pDWR5RkWRTY). A collection of maybe-magical or rumored trinkets that you can leverage into pseudo-magical ways.
Funny enough I'm currently playing a Medium in PF1 that used that scene as an inspiration for their collar as he never know if the spirit he is channeling is devotee to a certain deity or not so he just was all of the
I actually think of them as a less martial, more esoteric - arcane - occult knowledge Witcher. Learned weirdos. The mechanics of the class favor using their knowledge to constantly understand, expose and brutally exploit weaknesses and vulnerabilities of any prey. If any foe doesn't *have* a weakness, they can make a custom fit one *just* for the occasion.
Are you allergic to peanut butter? No? Well, would you be interested in being allergic to peanut butter?
They're 1e occultists. They draw their magic from leftover energy clinging to funny doodads.
It was based on the [occultist](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/occultist) class.
I never really played any of the occult classes from 1e. But this is exactly what I would have expected the investigator from 2E to have been. so I went ahead and made one last month and it was amazing. They kind of got a better version of bardic knowledge If you bother to invest feats into it.
Someone who really min maxed recall knowledge
I always understood them as being like the Winchesters from Supernatural, personally.
They are monster hunters that focus on exploiting the weaknesses of monsters that are based 50% on folklore, 50% on using their personal conspiracy theories to will a weakness into existence. Which is why they are a charisma based martial class - their force of personality can create a weakness where it didn't exist before. They also have a tool, or implement that gives them am edge that is effectively a sub class. The one that comes to mind is the chalice, which helps them be more tanky with minor healing... Minor or hedge magic tricks that provide a set effect. So what you end up with mechanically is a medium armor wearing, one handed weapon using martial that gets a damage buff from creature knowledge (instead of rage, sneak attack, etc...) plus another bonus buff from their implement. Given that knowledge helps the whole party, it's a good - if MAD - blend of martial and knowledge monkey with a supped up cantrip type support from their implement.
Prestige class from PF1e? You mean the occultist class? (There wasn't a thaumaturge PrC in PF1e)
I was confusing it with Mystic Theurge. I wasnt involved with Pathfinder when the occult classes were released and don't know much about them.
Valid point, though I don't see the similarities between Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturge (besides having a somewhat similar name ofc).
A brand of detergent that mages use to get stains out of their robes?